This is a very simple question, no conditions, no presuppositions. What is ‘Church’?


JoeT

Hi, JoeT777!

Since you've posted this in the Christianity forum topic area, I presume that you're asking about what is the definition of a Christian church? Or maybe, what is a Christian church to a Christian? Maybe even, what is church in general to a person, in general?

There might be even other interpretations as to what you're asking, so what specifically is it that you mean, please?

I'll be happy to give you my definition as to what I think that a Christian church is according to my understanding, but I would appreciate some clarification as what you mean by your question.

I don't mean to put a "bump in the road" so soon, but I hope that you see my point here.

Thanks!

church is a body of believers in Jesus Christ. The members make the church acts 14:27. People have receiced Jesus as their savior.
Are you religious or are you saved? 
During a religious ceremony, someone sprinkled water on my head. Religion teaches that when infants go through this ceremony, they will go to Heaven. They gave me a certificate saying, you are baptized unto salvation. Growing up, I believed what I was taught.
Then, one day I listened to some street preachers. I started to wonder if I really was going to Heaven. I read my Bible and realized that I'm a sinner on my way to Hell. The Bible says that Jesus came into the world to save sinners. So I asked Jesus to forgive me of my sins and save me. Now I know that when I die, I will go to Heaven. Let me ask you a question. Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die?
Here's how you can know:
Realize that you are a sinner.  Romans 3:23 says “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”
Realize that the punishment on sin is eternal death in Hell.  Romans 6:23 says “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Realize that Jesus died in your place.  Romans 5:8 says “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
Trust only Jesus as your Savior.  Romans 10:9 says “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
Ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins and save you.  Romans 10:13 says “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
You can call upon the Lord by praying something like this:
Dear Jesus, I admit that I'm a sinner, deserving of Hell. I believe you died on the cross for my sins and rose from the dead. Please forgive me of my sins and take me to heaven when I die. In Jesus name, Amen.
God's assurance of salvation.  John 10:27-28 says “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
Good works will not save you. Ephesians 2:8-9 says “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Jesus is the only way to Heaven. John 14:6 says “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I then got baptized as a public testimony of my salvation. This is my first act of obedience. I now hear the gospel preached at a Bible believing church called Faith Baptist Church in La Crosse, WI. If you would like to visit, the address is 3615 S. 28th St. Phone (608) 788-1165

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Hi, JoeT777!

Since you've posted this in the Christianity forum topic area, I presume that you're asking about what is the definition of a Christian church? Or maybe, what is a Christian church to a Christian? Maybe even, what is church in general to a person, in general?

There might be even other interpretations as to what you're asking, so what specifically is it that you mean, please?

I'll be happy to give you my definition as to what I think that a Christian church is according to my understanding, but I would appreciate some clarification as what you mean by your question.

I don't mean to put a "bump in the road" so soon, but I hope that you see my point here.

Thanks!

Jesushelper76 agrees: He asked it that way for a reason, I would presume. There could be defiantly many different definitions...

Fair enough. Helper's suggestion is right though, I'm looking for the variety of answers that might get at the root of the question. There should be a number of different definitions. If somebody lost his memory as a result of hitting that 'bump in the road' how would you respond to the question, 'what is a Church'. We say we're 'going to Church', what is a Church? Is it one person, two persons, a building, a theological philosophy, simply holding a belief in Christ, is it reading a book. I guess I don't have any other way to phrase it, 'What is Church'?

Don't make the mistake that I haven't already worked out an answer for myself (well OK, I almost have it worked – all I lack is a few details), I'm just curious as to how my opinion might compare with others.

JoeT

So, you would still seem to be just looking for a general definition as to what is a church, as defined based upon a general belief and understanding and not necessarily what a Christian thinks of what a church is.

Would that be correct?

Church is the body of believers that meet to honor, worship and spend time together in the presence of the LORD. They meet to learn His Truth, build up each other and grow together in relationship with each other and with Him. Church can be held in a building, outside, a home or anywhere else two or more believers meet together. It is not limited to the common idea of the "building" that most hold. Jesus said "wherever two or more are gathered together in My Name, I am there."

A coming together of people in worship.

Church is the body of believers that meet to honor, worship and spend time together in the presence of the LORD. They meet to learn His Truth, build up each other and grow together in relationship with each other and with Him. Church can be held in a building, outside, a home or anywhere else two or more believers meet together. It is not limited to the common idea of the "building" that most hold. Jesus said "wherever two or more are gathered together in My Name, I am there."

Excellent answer.

church is a body of believers in Jesus Christ. the members make the church acts 14:27. people have received Jesus as their savior.

Can you flesh this out a bit?


Are you religious or are you saved? 

During a religious ceremony, someone sprinkled water on my head. Religion teaches that when infants go through this ceremony, they will go to Heaven. They gave me a certificate saying, you are baptized unto salvation. Growing up, I believed what I was taught.

Then, one day I listened to some street preachers. I started to wonder if I really was going to Heaven. I read my Bible and realized that I’m a sinner on my way to Hell. The Bible says that Jesus came into the world to save sinners. So I asked Jesus to forgive me of my sins and save me. Now I know that when I die, I will go to Heaven. Let me ask you a question. Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die?

Here’s how you can know:

Realize that you are a sinner.  Romans 3:23 says “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

Realize that the punishment on sin is eternal death in Hell.  Romans 6:23 says “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Realize that Jesus died in your place.  Romans 5:8 says “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

Trust only Jesus as your Savior.  Romans 10:9 says “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

Ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins and save you.  Romans 10:13 says “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

You can call upon the Lord by praying something like this:

Dear Jesus, I admit that I’m a sinner, deserving of Hell. I believe you died on the cross for my sins and rose from the dead. Please forgive me of my sins and take me to heaven when I die. In Jesus name, Amen.

God‘s assurance of salvation.  John 10:27-28 says “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Good works will not save you. Ephesians 2:8-9 says “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Jesus is the only way to Heaven. John 14:6 says “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I then got baptized as a public testimony of my salvation. This is my first act of obedience. I now hear the gospel preached at a Bible believing church called Faith Baptist Church in La Crosse, WI. If you would like to visit, the address is 3615 S. 28th St. Phone (608) 788-1165

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

This sinner would agree on many details of your testimony. I do agree that our central focus ought to be Christ. However, I’d suggest that it’s “with fear and trembling [we] work out [our] salvation.” Eph 2:12 not by faith alone; but faith with works. That being as it may, I hadn’t contemplated discussing the topic in this thread.

Thank you for your testimony.

JoeT

However, I'd suggest that it's “with fear and trembling [we] work out [our] salvation.” Eph 2:12 not by faith alone; but faith with works.

Eph 2:12 reads much different in my Bible:

Eph 2:11-13
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
NKJV

I don't see works anywhere involved in salvation.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

So, you would still seem to be just looking for a general definition as to what is a church, as defined based upon a general belief and understanding and not necessarily what a Christian thinks of what a church is.

Would that be correct?

Not necessarily 'simple', just how you would define what it means to you. I sense a bit of trepidation; I don’t shy away from a good debate. To be honest I didn’t stop to contemplate just how complex this simple little question could get. I can understand your anxiety, as soon as you get beyond ‘Church’ as a building, there's a host of different ecumenical problems I hadn’t stopped to think about.

JoeT

A number of years ago, my kids and I took a trip. On a Sunday morning, we walked down to the Mississippi river, prayed and reflected on some things. As far as I am concerned, we had been to church. We are all Christians.

By the way, I'm not anxious and I'm certainly not looking for some kind of debate.

Thank you!

A number of years ago, my kids and I took a trip. On a Sunday morning, we walked down to the Mississippi river, prayed and reflected on some things. As far as I am concerned, we had been to church. We are all Christians.

By the way, I'm not anxious and I'm certainly not looking for some kind of debate.

Thank you!

I figured that.

Okay...

Joe,
I've been informed that when Jesus said that He would build His Church on a rock that He spoke of His Assembly in the language of the time in His land.
To me His assembly was His immediate followers who were apostles and disciples.
It was they who believed in Him, followed Him, and who did what He told them to do.
So I believe that even yet today His Church is 1. Christian and 2. Made up of followers LIKE those of His immediate assembly during His time on earth.
At that time they met together in various rooms or homes or out in the open somewhere like a hill top or garden.
Later, within the first hundred years some of the members of His assembly built special buildings in which to meet and worship.
Parts of some of those buildings still exist in various places such as the one that Saint Thomas and some followers built a Church Building in what today is India.
In places like ancient Rome where they were persecuted they met in secret often in homes or in the catacombs beneath the city.
I note that the Churches mentioned in the bible are of the sorts I have mentioned and that they were all started by the first apostles and maintained by them and disciples.
So I believe that a Church is not necessarily a building but can be and that it has a human leader such as an apostle and that it is made up of followers of Jesus Christ who meet in worship of God and do the things that Jesus instructed them to do such as pray, commune, and baptize as He taught.
Thank you for asking that question.
It caused me to really think about that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

This is a very simple question, no conditions, no presuppositions. What is 'Church'?

JoeT

Genesis 28:20-22 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

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But in the last days it shall come to pass: But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

_____________________________________________

2 Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

The Temple known as Christ Jesus

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­_____________________________ _______________

Not desiring death which is of satan's work, But life with our Lord

2 Cr 5:8-9 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

_____________________________________________

What shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

It depends upon the context. If you want to speak about the one true church that Jesus spoke about, the body of Christ, it is the body of all who have been saved by the true gospel who have existed since creation. It is not a denomination, an organization or a building.

If you want to speak of a manmade organization, we often call such organizations churches. But they are named this despite the fact that we know that each one contains unsaved persons. Some more than others, but membership in such an organization cannot guarantee membership in the body of Christ, so we know that there is a different.

If you want to speak about the building, it is so named because the original intent of such buildings was to house worship of the true God by the true church. But a building in temporary and the true church, the body of Christ is not.

My short answer:
The Church is the Body of Christ on Earth.
Its mission, briefly, is to exhibit the love of God, cast out evil spirits, heal the sick in body, and occasionally raise the dead, literally.

I don't see works anywhere involved in salvation.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
I agree. Salvation is the work that Jesus did for us. Following that is sanctification, the work of the Holy Spirit to bring us to faith and to inspire us not only to love God but also to love others (good works, our thank-you to God).

I agree. Salvation is the work that Jesus did for us. Following that is sanctification, the work of the Holy Spirit to bring us to faith and to inspire us not only to love God but also to love others (good works, our thank-you to God).

Hello, WG.

I don't believe I've ever read your take on the second chapter of the Epistle of James. What do you make of James 2.24, for instance: "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

How do you understand the relation between justification and salvation?

Akoue,
The WORK of The Church is to preach and teach about the gospels and salvation.
There are many references in the bible about works that should be done such as Baptism, the Eucharist, Loving one another, (This commandment I gibe you to love one another as I have loved you) and don't forget the faith itself is a work.
Jesus told His apostles (soon to be bishops of The Church) what work to do and sent them on a practice mission on which they reported back to Him.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hello, WG.

I don't believe I've ever read your take on the second chapter of the Epistle of James. What do you make of James 2.24, for instance: "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

How do you understand the relation between justification and salvation?
Jesus did the work of justification (He saved us). The HS does the work of sanctification. Faith without works is dead, yes, but works do not save us. Salvation is by faith alone, and good works follow faith -- as I said above, good works are our thank-you to God.

In the verse from James, James rebukes Christians who use salvation by "faith alone" as an excuse for not having to do good works. He reminds us that God forgives and "justifies" us for Christ's sake and instills faith in us through the power of His Spirit Who also inspires us to do good works. Thus, good works always go hand in hand with "justification," but do not contribute in any way to our being declared righteous before God.

"Justification" and salvation" refer to the free gift of forgiveness, eternal life, and righteousness in God's sight which are granted by Him to sinners through faith in Christ alone.

Akoue,
The WORK of The Church is to preach and teach about the gospels and salvation.

This is a good reason why the church must be the body of believers. Non-believers do you preach the gospel. Organized churches can be used by the body of Christ to help spread the gospel, but organized churches will always be a mix of saved and unsaved persons.

I wasn't ignoring the responses given here. I just had a fun day in training, repelling off a fire training tower. Hey, not so bad for a 50 + something with 6 grandbabies. After the Hail Mary walk across the precipice, on the way down, it came to me how the repelling line, the belay line along with the climbing commander where a lot like 'Church'. I guess I could have thrown the rope over the edge and started a climb down on my own, but I can assure you I would have had firsthand experience with the “splatter factor,” (SF= Mass x Acceleration). It was with fear and trembling that accompanied my faith in the rope and team members as I went over the edge. And once on the other side it opened an entire world in the vertical dimension, from terra firma to the heavens. However, I did notice amount of work it took to move in the heavenly direction.

Of those who did respond, I noticed most contended that Church is little more than a collection of believers, just throw the line over and start climbing types. Only one contended that believers had to be of like minded, agreeing with each other. What about those who aren't of like mind? In that light, I wonder what should be made of the hierarchy mentioned in scripture.

“Now you are the body of Christ and members of member. And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.” 1 Cor 12:27.

JoeT

Joe,
I do believe that real Christians are of like mind in some ways.
They just about have to be.
But just think of the many callings that make up that one body.
There is bound to be a lot of mind differences.
Also consider the fact that there are over 30,000 different denominations plus many so-called non-denominations.
I believe that there are Christians scattered throughout them with mind differences.
I have previously given here what my belief of what Church is and thus some of those denominations no not fit what I believe "church" is, but I also believe that there are Christians who are not in what I believe is real "church".
After all Jesus is the supreme and final Judge of who is Christian and those who will be saved.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Church is a place to meet with other believers, even if you are not a believer yourself. It is a place to fellowship with other people, to learn about God and His love for you, and to seek help if you need it. Church is a worry free place, and a place to praise God who created you. For long time believers, it's a place to worship and praise, but either new believers or even non believers can go for inspiration. Church really is a remarkable place... it reminds me of what is really important in life, and puts my week in a better perspective - I remember to look up instead of elsewhere. =)

Ann Landers: "Church is a hospital for sinners."

Wondergirl,
Ann is very good with thoughts like that.
Thanks,
Fred

"Church" to the Greeks in Jesus day was an assembly of people "set apart" to govern the affairs of a state; a parliament or congress. The Romans used it to include a group sent to a conquered area to alter the culture until it became like Rome (under the Pax Romana).

Jesus said He would build His church through us. He intends us to legislate SPIRITUALLY for Him to extend His kingdom over the earth.

Much of the "church" today thinks it better to adopt the culture of the world to "win them" (to what?).
To be lights (beacons)and salt(enhancement to life) seems to be too hard

revdrgade,
Your post e=was very interesting to me.
Thanks,
Fred

I

“Now you are the body of Christ and members of member. And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.” 1 Cor 12:27.

JoeT

Joe I trust you have read further in verses concerning this scripture and it's words of wisdom posted..

1 Cor 12:29-30 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

The answer is No, and the reason why it is no, was given in the last verse..

1 Cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Covet earnestly means they desire earnestly, in pursue, or strive after the best gifts: and yet what? Christ shows the more excellant gift, and the way... Points directly to Matthew 16:21

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Joe,
I do believe that real Christians are of like mind in some ways.
They just about have to be.
But just think of the many callings that make up that one body.
There is bound to be a lot of mind differences.
Also consider the fact that there are over 30,000 different denominations plus many so-called non-denominations.
I believe that there are Christians scattered throughout them with mind differences.
I have previously given here what my belief of what Church is and thus some of those denominations no not fit what I believe "church" is, but I also believe that there are Christians who are not in what I believe is real "church".
After all Jesus is the supreme and final Judge of who is Christian and those who will be saved.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred so much of what you are saying is true. And I believe much of what has happened falls on satan's temptations to beguile the world.. We are warned that hourly satan works at tempting wickedness and sin. And we have been warned to remain armed with Christ, and His way in righteousness. Doing the will of God and staying in the light of the law.

Today we see the results of what is written for the end times, where God is the fire in anger because many do not do His will. Man's desire, wanting to show a better way, and the teachings split into many branches.. God does promise to cut off parts that are not His Will.

A church was (Genesis 28:20-22) where Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

And we are to do as (1 Peter 4:19) says: Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Yet we see was is spoken of in (Revelation 8: 11) And the name of the star is called Wormwood/beguiled to bitterness ... and the third part of the waters which is the people became wormwood... and many men died of the waters which is the opposite of living water... because they were made bitter.

The bitter is the beguiled Word of God that satan has twisted in the minds of men. And we see the signs that (Matthew 24:7) speaks of famines which is hunger for the Truth in The Word of God.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Faith in Christ following His way... works in doing God's Will as a child of God

What about the Mystical Body of Christ? Is there any such of a thing? This understanding of 'Church' has been held by the Catholic Church since Christ's ascension.

The Mystical Body of Christ:

• The members of the Church are bound together by a supernatural life communicated to them by Christ through the sacraments (John 15:5). Christ is the centre and source of life to Whom all are united, and Who endows each one with gifts fitting him for his position in the body (John 15:7-12). These graces, through which each is equipped for his work, form it into an organized whole, whose parts are knit together as though by a system of ligaments and joints (John 15:16; Colossians 2:19).

• Through them, too, the Church has its growth and increase, growing in extension as it spreads through the world, and intensively as the individual Christian develops in himself the likeness of Christ (John 15:13-15).

• In virtue of this union the Church is the fulness or complement (pleroma) of Christ (Ephesians 1:23). It forms one whole with Him; and the Apostle even speaks of the Church as "Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:12).

• This union between head and members is conserved and nourished by the Holy Eucharist. Through this sacrament our incorporation into the Body of Christ is alike outwardly symbolized and inwardly actualized; "We being many are one bread, one body; for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Corinthians 10:17). ( Source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Mystical Body of the Church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm) )

How does one have such a thing without being One with the Church as Christ is One with the Father? (John 17:20 seq.) Or is the Church simply all Christians who read the Bible?
JoeT

This is a very simple question, no conditions, no presuppositions. What is ‘Church’?


JoeT

The Church is the house of our Lord and this is true and valid for all Christian denominations. It is also valid for all religions if we consider the different names a Church can receive. For the Jews, a Sinagoge. For the Muslims, a Mosque. For the Hindus, a Mandir. Pagoda is how in most Buddhist countries is named the Temple devoted for prayer. Sintoists normally use the word Shrine…
However, in every case, and irrespective of the name, a Church or Temple is the place dedicated to worship God and to pray.
From our own Christian point of view, the Church implies basically the entire religious body at a worldwide level formed by the different congregations, members, and clergy. In the case, of course, of the RCC the Church is being symbolized by the Pope and the Vatican, in Rome.
In this case the building is not so important. Any place can be good enough to pray and worship our Lord. At home, in a traditional church or in the middle of nowhere!
;)

• This union between head and members is conserved and nourished by the Holy Eucharist. Through this sacrament our incorporation into the Body of Christ is alike outwardly symbolized and inwardly actualized; "We being many are one bread, one body; for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Corinthians 10:17). [/I]( Source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Mystical Body of the Church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm) )

Joe, This is my belief in what scripture is telling us... The church is the gospel teaching of love for Christ. Teaching us His ways, and of His love that was given to us. Trusting in Christ, and being one with Him. Exampled as how Christ was one with His Father. We each our One with Christ.


1 Cor 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Why? because it was the crowd that caused many to follow in doubt... Even Aaron went with the crowd in what they gathered to say while Moses was gone.

Spoken as do.. not some , not part , not other then... Only do, as all in the glory of God!

Remember:1 Cor 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Each individual should be lead by their own conscience and not by someone else, and no one will be judged by anyone other then their own actions.

And we are not to lead others to sin by our ways of life, this includes Jews, Gentiles, and the church: by trying to please men in all things, not to profit yourself, nor the to profit many, but rather to save them. (1 Cor 10: 32-33)


Provoking God to His anger in fire is when we(individual or group) feel, we can save others by having them follow our ways.

1 Cor 10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

His Way.. and trust in Him

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Be one with Christ, His ways

Yes, each that walk in Christ, become one with Christ. That is true for many who also make their own choice to follow Christ.

1 Cor 10:16-17 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.





How does one have such a thing without being One with the Church as Christ is One with the Father? (John 17:20 seq.) Or is the Church simply all Christians who read the Bible?
JoeT

Because we can be sanctified by Christ, His power and strength, it is written and was fulfilled. Revealed unto each of us, as God Wills... John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Their word is to be what is written in scripture. Their testmony and teaching of Truth. That which was witnesses as evident identity: The church is the gospel teaching of love for Christ. Teaching us His ways, and of His love that was given to us. Trusting in Christ, and being one with Him. Exampled as how Christ was one with His Father. We each our One with Christ.

What about the Mystical Body of Christ? Is there any such of a thing? This understanding of ‘Church’ has been held by the Catholic Church since Christ’s ascension.

Perhaps, rather, since the denomination began.


How does one have such a thing without being One with the Church as Christ is One with the Father? (John 17:20 seq.) Or is the Church simply all Christians who read the Bible?
JoeT

If you assume that the one true church is a denomination, then you will get one answer. If you assume that the one true church is the body of Christ (body of all believers) as scripture indicates, you will tet a different answer. If we assume that the church is, as scripture suggests, the body of all who are believers, then that unity is achieved through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who indwells all who have received Jesus as Saviour.

If we assume that the church is, as scripture suggests, the body of all who are believers, then that unity is achieved through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who indwells all who have received Jesus as Saviour.


• In virtue of this union the Church is the fulness or complement (pleroma) of Christ (Ephesians 1:23). It forms one whole with Him; and the Apostle even speaks of the Church as "Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:12).

JoeT


First:
1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.



Noted: He Will

United when converted to children of God within the House of God to give praise and glory to our Lord.


Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The Church is the house of our Lord and this is true and valid for all Christian denominations. It is also valid for all religions if we consider the different names a Church can receive. For the Jews, a Sinagoge. For the Muslims, a Mosque. For the Hindus, a Mandir. Pagoda is how in most Buddhist countries is named the Temple devoted for prayer. Sintoists normally use the word Shrine…

However, in every case, and irrespective of the name, a Church or Temple is the place dedicated to worship God and to pray.

I would agree that church is “an assembly” or an assembly place. But I see that place as being much more than a prayer assembly.


From our own Christian point of view, the Church implies basically the entire religious body at a worldwide level formed by the different congregations, members, and clergy. In the case, of course, of the RCC the Church is being symbolized by the Pope and the Vatican, in Rome.
In this case the building is not so important. Any place can be good enough to pray and worship our Lord. At home, in a traditional church or in the middle of nowhere!
;)

While we can and should pray at, work, at home, or at play, I don’t hold that Church is of little importance. We know this to be so because ‘Church’ also means the entire body of believers, the Church Militant, those believers on earth; the Church Suffering, those believers in a state of purgatory; and the Church Triumphant, those believers in Heaven. “A body of men united together by the profession of the same Christian Faith, and by participation in the same sacraments, under the governance of lawful pastors, more especially of the Roman Pontiff, the sole vicar of Christ on earth" (St. Bellarmine, De Eccl. III, ii, 9)

This Church is endowed with a sacrificial system, it is God’s Kingdom in Divine revelation, governed by an authority appointed by Christ.


Joe, This is my belief in what scripture is telling us... The church is the gospel teaching of love for Christ. Teaching us His ways, and of His love that was given to us. Trusting in Christ, and being one with Him. Exampled as how Christ was one with His Father. We each our One with Christ.


1 Cor 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Why? because it was the crowd that caused many to follow in doubt... Even Aaron went with the crowd in what they gathered to say while Moses was gone.

Spoken as do.. not some , not part , not other then... Only do, as all in the glory of God!

Remember:1 Cor 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Each individual should be lead by their own conscience and not by someone else, and no one will be judged by anyone other then their own actions.

And we are not to lead others to sin by our ways of life, this includes Jews, Gentiles, and the church: by trying to please men in all things, not to profit yourself, nor the to profit many, but rather to save them. (1 Cor 10: 32-33)


Provoking God to His anger in fire is when we(individual or group) feel, we can save others by having them follow our ways.

1 Cor 10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

His Way.. and trust in Him

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

You’ve lost me with most of this; I don’t see the relevance with ‘Church’.


Be one with Christ, His ways

Yes, each that walk in Christ, become one with Christ. That is true for many who also make their own choice to follow Christ.

1 Cor 10:16-17 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Because we can be sanctified by Christ, His power and strength, it is written and was fulfilled. Revealed unto each of us, as God Wills... John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Their word is to be what is written in scripture. Their testmony and teaching of Truth. That which was witnesses as evident identity: The church is the gospel teaching of love for Christ. Teaching us His ways, and of His love that was given to us. Trusting in Christ, and being one with Him. Exampled as how Christ was one with His Father. We each our One with Christ.

"For we, being many, are one bread, one body: all that partake of one bread." (1 Cor 10:17) One, all the same, though made up of many different ingredients, we make together one bread. All partake of that one bread in the Eucharist, a sacramental blessing that can only be formed in the one (homogeneous) Mystical Body of Christ. “One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all”; all of us in the Body of Christ. Eph 4:6 We know this because Christ prayed “And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” John 17:20-21

Applying a varying faiths for different people based on ‘worketh that one and selfsame spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will’ applies to charismatic gifts, not to varying faiths. (see post 37 - link). (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/what-church-328935-4.html#post1608034)

To hold this view that each different church, each different faith, can believe in the absolute truths revealed by God in such a subjective manner implies that our God is schizophrenic. He tells the Baptist one belief, the Lutherans another belief and the Catholics yet something else? For as the body is one and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they... Now you are the body of Christ and members of member. 1 Cor 12:12,27 Each individual member is bound into the body with the sinew of faith guided by its head, Christ. How do you make sense of a schizophrenic God?

JoeT

Joe,
I believe that there are many churches but only a very few that fit into my definition of a true full Church.
Very few have an apostle servant leader.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Very few have an apostle servant leader.



All true churches have an Apostle leader. There is only one Apostle on earth today according to scripture and that is Jesus.

Heb 3:1-2
3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
NKJV

Joe,
I believe that there are many churches but only a very few that fit into my definition of a true full Church.
Very few have an apostle servant leader.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred:

It’s my belief that there is a fullness of faith that is only found in our Church. In fact Paul makes this statement strait out. “And [Christ] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may hold the primacy: Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell “(Col 1:18-19) God fills that body with himself, the Mystical Body of Christ, firstborn from the dead that pleases the Father.

JoeT

Fred:
It’s my belief that there is a fullness of faith that is only found in our Church.


Scripture speaks against denominationalism.

1 Cor 1:11-14
11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
NKJV



In fact Paul makes this statement strait out. “And [Christ] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may hold the primacy: Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell “(Col 1:18-19)

The body that he speaks about is clearly indicated in scripture as being the body of Christ, not a denomination or organization of men.

Joe,
I agree.
Ours is the One, Holy, Apostolic Church with servant leader apostles under the supreme head of Jesus Christ.
I see that Yj3 us still stuck in the rut of denominalationism which did not become a fact till Luther's time.
Before that the Catholic Church was never referred to as a denomination.
In fact it really is not a denomination now because it is the Mother Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Ours is the One, Holy, Apostolic Church with servant leader apostles under the supreme head of Jesus Christ.

Scripture says that there only ever has been 12 Apostles. Any Apostles today must be very old men - do tell me how to contact them - I'd like to verify their age!


I see that Yj3 us still stuck in the rut of denominalationism which did not become a fact till Luther's time.

Interesting accusation from someone claiming that their denomination is the only true denomination, whereas I am not even a member of any denomination.

Before that the Catholic Church was never referred to as a denomination.
In fact it really is not a denomination now because it is the Mother Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
The broadest definition of a denomination is the one Wikipedia uses: "A Christian denomination is an identifiable religious body under a common name, structure, and doctrine within Christianity.... Catholicism is the largest denomination, comprising just over half of Christians worldwide. Protestant denominations comprise about 40% of Christians worldwide, and together the Catholics, Protestants, Anglicans, and closely related denominations compose Western Christianity."

Wikipedia goes on to say, "The earliest recorded evidence of the use of the term 'Catholic Church' is the Letter to the Smyrnaeans that Ignatius of Antioch wrote in about 107 to Christians in Smyrna. Saint Ignatius used the term to designate the Christian Church possessing true traditions, excluding heretics, such as those who 'confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.' Exhorting Christians to remain closely united with their bishop, he wrote: 'Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.'" Constantine I did not establish and name the Catholic Church; he merely legalized it in the Roman Empire.

Like arcura said, Catholicism developed from the Early Church, and, from it, all the other Christian denominations are derived. And yes, arcura, the word "denomination" came to mean the any one of the Christian churches that came about because of the Reformation.

[QUOTE=JoeT777;1608484]I would agree that church is “an assembly” or an assembly place. But I see that place as being much more than a prayer assembly.

Well, yes in the case of Christians is supposed to represent the body of our Faith.

While we can and should pray at, work, at home, or at play, I don’t hold that Church is of little importance. We know this to be so because ‘Church’ also means the entire body of believers, the Church Militant, those believers on earth; the Church Suffering, those believers in a state of purgatory; and the Church Triumphant, those believers in Heaven. “A body of men united together by the profession of the same Christian Faith, and by participation in the same sacraments, under the governance of lawful pastors, more especially of the Roman Pontiff, the sole vicar of Christ on earth" (St. Bellarmine, De Eccl. III, ii, 9)

I am considering the "building" as the less important part of the "Church".
What I'm trying to say is that I consider, as you yourself point out, the Church as any place where a group of Christians get together to pray, for the name Church is applied to the body of believers.
In this sense the most magnificent Cathedral or the Vatican building is no more important than the humblest little hermitage hidden in a mountain top...

.

You've lost me with most of this; I don't see the relevance with 'Church'.

To hold this view that each different church, each different faith, can beleive in the absolute truths revealed by God in such a subjective manner implies that our God is schizophrenic. He tells the Baptist one belief, the Lutherans another belief and the Catholics yet something else? For as the body is one and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they ... Now you are the body of Christ and members of member. 1 Cor 12:12,27 Each individual member is bound into the body with the sinew of faith guided by its head, Christ. How do you make sense of a schizophrenic God?

JoeT


Joe, I do hope you read this and find the relevance. I pray for each, and eveyone to be one with Christ.

In post # 33 you have noted the importance of verse 10:17 in Corinthians. One verse pulled out of the teaching of Corinthians 10. What I refer is in showing the importance of everything that was being said in Chapter 10, and the meaning of each referenced verse as it is being told.

How the example from the days of Moses going into the wilderness (1 Cor 10:5) were found to be displeasing to God. Especially when Moses left to go up and be with God. How the crowd gathered together giving ear to the voices of man, and their foolishness. That even Aaron being of the priesthood, in trying to please the men, went along with what was being said by them (the men.)

A final message in (1 Cor 10:31) exampled in telling us whether it be what we eat, or drink or anything we do, we are to give thanks and glory to God.

Not anyone other then God should be shown praise or glory for their labor or works. That our conscience mind is judged upon our own actions, and judged by God alone. God states that He uses the weaker of man. I believe that is because they follow Him, and are not as prideful in their own ways.

And we are not to lead others as the foolish men did in Moses day, not the Jews, Gentiles, or Church can save man because that is what was given as the example. That was the reason Aaron fell in trying to please them. Giving them what they needed in signs, and offering a different direction or way then what was originally shown by God. The men were afraid God and Moses had left them to die there. Who then could save them?

The idea that anyone can give people a better way then what Christ, himself exampled is foolishness of man. Man offering people signs, and showing them new ways of following what God wants, provokes God to anger.

And God's fire sends delusion, and what you have call a sense of a schizophrenic. The 7 churches told of in Revelation, and God's message to each does example God's warning to the churches for misleading His children, falling out of God ways, in pleasing them with different ways.

Only 2 churches are exampled doing what was pleasing to God. One should ask themselves if their church is doing what is pleasing to God? Are they doing what the 2 exampled churches were said to be doing?

God's word says: Otherwise are they thinking they are stronger then God? (1 Corinthians 10:22)

God does tell us and promises, that each church and man is tempted by the same hourly temptation which beguiled Eve. Remember Paul spoke that he hoped the minds would not be beguiled from the simplicity that is Christ. ( 2 Corinthains 11:3)..

And in 1 Corinthains 10:13 God's word is that He will remain faithful and not suffer temptation above what we are able to bear, and He will aways gives ways to escape the foolishness and evil. We just have to hear Christ, and do things His way.

Phl 1:15-17 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.


Phl 1:19-20 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, According to my earnest expectation and [my] hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but [that] with all boldness, as always, [so] now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether [it be] by life, or by death.


Phl 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

`In Christ

Joe, I do hope you read this and find the relevance. I pray for each, and eveyone to be one with Christ.

In post # 33 you have noted the importance of verse 10:17 in Corinthians. One verse pulled out of the teaching of Corinthians 10. What I refer is in showing the importance of everything that was being said in Chapter 10, and the meaning of each referenced verse as it is being told.

How the example from the days of Moses going into the wilderness (1 Cor 10:5) were found to be displeasing to God. Especially when Moses left to go up and be with God. How the crowd gathered together giving ear to the voices of man, and their foolishness. That even Aaron being of the priesthood, in trying to please the men, went along with what was being said by them (the men.)

A final message in (1 Cor 10:31) exampled in telling us whether it be what we eat, or drink or anything we do, we are to give thanks and glory to God.

I would agree that verse 31 of Chapter 10 in first Epistle to the Corinthians is the focus of the entire chapter. I would add verse 30 so that Paul concludes thus:

Be without offence to the Jew, and to the Gentiles and to the church of God: As I also in all things please all men, not seeking that which is profitable to myself but to many: that they may be saved. (1Cor 10:30-31)

I do however draw completely different conclusions and don't equate them to 'Church'. In Chapter 10 Paul is teaching that there are no 'unclean' animals as the Jews held, and thus what is eaten or drunk does not offend God. If Paul's confusing you it may be due to your lack of understanding concerning the “chalice of benediction”, which is Holy Communion. (As an aside – isn't it strange that we should see reference to the body and blood of Christ in Paul's writings? Could he be Catholic?) By partaking the communicant is sharing in sacred mysteries becoming One with the Mystical Body of Christ; “One bread, One body all that partake of One Bread” Cf. 1Cor 10:14-17). Paul consequently points out that if we were to hold certain foods, certain drink “unholy” likewise we would be partaking of the devils communion. God has removed this objection proclaiming all foods good so we don't “provoke the Lord to jealousy”. (Cf. 1Cor 10:23)

The point being that 'Church' is not discussed in this Chapter in the same context as this thread.

********************************************

Not anyone other then God should be shown praise or glory for their labor or works. That our conscience mind is judged upon our own actions, and judged by God alone. God states that He uses the weaker of man. I believe that is because they follow Him, and are not as prideful in their own ways.

Catholics do urge works, since faith without works is dead. But it should be clear to you that those works are intended as works in Charity.

********************************************


And we are not to lead others as the foolish men did in Moses day, not the Jews, Gentiles, or Church can save man because that is what was given as the example. That was the reason Aaron fell in trying to please them. Giving them what they needed in signs, and offering a different direction or way then what was originally shown by God. The men were afraid God and Moses had left them to die there. Who then could save them?

The idea that anyone can give people a better way then what Christ, himself exampled is foolishness of man. Man offering people signs, and showing them new ways of following what God wants, provokes God to anger.

And God's fire sends delusion, and what you have call a sense of a schizophrenic. The 7 churches told of in Revelation, and God's message to each does example God's warning to the churches for misleading His children, falling out of God ways, in pleasing them with different ways.

Only 2 churches are exampled doing what was pleasing to God. One should ask themselves if their church is doing what is pleasing to God? Are they doing what the 2 exampled churches were said to be doing?

God's word says: Otherwise are they thinking they are stronger then God? (1 Corinthians 10:22)

God does tell us and promises, that each church and man is tempted by the same hourly temptation which beguiled Eve. Remember Paul spoke that he hoped the minds would not be beguiled from the simplicity that is Christ ( 2 Corinthains 11:3)..

And in 1 Corinthains 10:13 God's word is that He will remain faithful and not suffer temptation above what we are able to bear, and He will aways gives ways to escape the foolishness and evil. We just have to hear Christ, and do things His way.

Phl 1:15-17 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Phl 1:19-20 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, According to my earnest expectation and [my] hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but [that] with all boldness, as always, [so] now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether [it be] by life, or by death.

Phl 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

In Christ

Now, having the appearance of the iconic Poppa John's Pizza Man doesn't necessarily mean that I'm as stupid as I look. Reading between the verses, what's being conveyed to me is that the Roman Church, the Body of Christ, places itself at the head; that in doing so foolishly it is provoking God; that Catholics are schizophrenically deluded; that the Body of Christ, the Church, is not found pleasing to God contrary to Col 1:18-19; that Catholics are foolish, beguiled, etc. ect… I just didn't want you to think it went unnoticed.

JoeT

Guess I have a different bible than some of you, I know of the 12, mine also says they replaced Judas with a Apsotle, and then Paul,

That is at least 14 Apostles we are given by name.

But then to believe that God would stop providing his blessings, I don't see where the bible says his grace in giving us prophets and Apostles ever stopped, in fact it appears , at least in my bible, that this is a on going Gift of the Holy Spirit

Acts 1:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=1&verse=26&version=31&context=verse)
Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Romans 16:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=16&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.


1 Corinthians 12:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.


1 Corinthians 12:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=29&version=31&context=verse)
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?

Wikipedia goes on to say, "The earliest recorded evidence of the use of the term 'Catholic Church' is the Letter to the Smyrnaeans that Ignatius of Antioch wrote in about 107 to Christians in Smyrna. Saint Ignatius used the term to designate the Christian Church possessing true traditions, excluding heretics, such as those who 'confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.' Exhorting Christians to remain closely united with their bishop, he wrote: 'Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.'" Constantine I did not establish and name the Catholic Church; he merely legalized it in the Roman Empire.

Keep in mind that there is a difference between for the formalized organization and what referred to as the catholic church in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. There term then was being used to refer to the universal church, i.e. churches which held to sound doctrine. There was an attempt to establish central organizational control which failed. The churches were not under a denominational structure until Constantine forced it.


I am considering the "building" as the less important part of the "Church".
What I'm trying to say is that I consider, as you yourself point out, the Church as any place where a group of Christians get together to pray, for the name Church is applied to the body of believers.

This is an important point. The true church is not the building or organization. Anyplace where believers gather, the church is there because the believers are the church. The nicest church building or a large church organization is not the true church if the believers are not there.

Catholics do urge works, since faith without works is dead. But it should be clear to you that those works are intended as works in Charity.

********************************************

The topic is not Catholics it is Churches... This is a Christian forum not just a catholic forum... Fellowhship in Christ. This applies to us that follow in Christ and those who don't follow Christ...

Works can be righteousness when they are done as Christ did. He did show us the way.. He suffered works in baptism as a righteous act. Doing the Will of God.. And done in faith of fulfillment.

The following verse in Phl 3 says, I count all things... except the loss for excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus... Your own righteousness done by the law is not the point... because it would be shown in doing unto other as you would want done unto you as the law tells you. . . However anything done in faith for Christ, for example: Christ walked in showing glory to His Father, we walk in showing glory to Christ..

Phl 3:8-11 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.



Now, having the appearance of the iconic Poppa John's Pizza Man doesn't necessarily mean that I'm as stupid as I look. Reading between the verses, what's being conveyed to me is that the Roman Church, the Body of Christ, places itself at the head; that in doing so foolishly it is provoking God; that Catholics are schizophrenically deluded; that the Body of Christ, the Church, is not found pleasing to God contrary to Col 1:18-19; that Catholics are foolish, beguiled, ect., ect… I just didn't want you to think it went unnoticed.

JoeT

Once again you target the Catholic Church or Catholics in general.. This is The Word of God being discussed, and those verse don't target Catholics.. My question would be, do you find offense in God's Word which were the scriptures I referenced?

1 Corinthians 10:11-13 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

That does not mean man is perfect... And let us remember: Satan himself walked in pride thinking he was perfect, satan has fallen! It is the option of all men...

Ensample Aaron the priesthood, was he perfect?

Ensample Peter walking on water, was he shown as perfect?

Ensample all disciples on Mt Olive sleeping, does it show them as perfect?

Do you understand this verse being the Christians churches and their teaching of Christ?..

Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.



Do you understand this to be error, when not doing as Christ has shown us to do?

The Holy Spirit speaking: Hebrews 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways.


Christ is the Way

Hebrew 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

But then to belive that God would stop providing his blessings, I don't see where the bible says his grace in giving us prophets and Apostles ever stoped, in fact it appears , at least in my bible, that this is a on going Gift of the Holy Spirit

II Corinthains 2 Paul wrote a letter to the church, he really was not joyfull about writing. He had to straighen things out. He concluded that when they repent of wrong doing, one does not hold it over their head. Yet he also concludes in saying Lest satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2:11)

Paul urged that sincerety in Christ, and His ways should be taught, and not man's words that corrupt the word of God. (2:11)

Paul tells us that we are only free from the bondage of sin, when we are in Christ then we find liberty. (3:17)

We preach not ourselves but of Christ Jesus ..(4:5) When our hearts of love is for Christ, Only then does Christ light shine out of the darkness (4:6)



1 Corinthians 12:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=29&version=31&context=verse)
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?

No not all.. each are gifted according to God's Will.

Not by their own hands of glory, but in the glory of God

The topic is not just Catholics... This is a Christian forum.. Fellowhship in Christ. This applies to us all...

Yes it is and I’m a Christian and I enjoy the conversation, sometimes its stimulating. BTW, a Catholic is a Christian – I just wasn’t sure you knew that.


Works can be righteousness when they are done as Christ did. He did show us the way.. He suffered works in baptism as a righteous act. Doing the Will of God.. And done in faith of Christ Jesus.

Agreed.


The following verse says I count all things... except the loss for excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus... Your own righteousness done by the law is not the point... because it would be shown in doing unto other as you would want done unto you as the law tells you. . . However anything done in faith for Christ, for example: Christ walked in showing glory to His Father, we walk in showing glory to Christ..

Walking in Christ is our goal, but this verse doesn’t say don’t go to Church, does it?


Phl 3:8-11 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

? Which means what in relation to ‘Church’?


Once again you target this to mean the Catholic Church or Catholics in general.. This is The Word of God being discussed, and those verse don't just target Catholics.. My question would be, do you find offense in God's Word which were the scriptures I referenced?

I’m completely the mercy of our host. If this board is for Christian question and answer, I would certain think Catholics fit that mold. However, unlike others, Catholics aren’t constrained to scripture alone. Consequently I don’t feel bound by your fetters.

1 Corinthians 10:11-13 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

I’m still at a lost how this bears on the topic ‘Church’?


That does not mean man is perfect... And let us remember: Satan himself walked in pride thinking he was perfect, satan has fallen! It is the option of all men...

“That man is perfect” was never brought up, at least not by me. But, man can be made holy by Christ through Mystical Body of Christ.


Ensample Aaron the priesthood, was he perfect?

No, nor was it implied or stated that he was. You might recall, bringing Aaron into the Church was your idea.


Ensample Peter walking on water, was he shown as perfect?

No, and nobody I know of in the RC Church walks on water, yet. We’re working on it!


Ensample all disciples on Mt Olive sleeping, does it show them as perfect?

No, but Christ is our head, and He doesn’t need sleep.

JoeT

Wondergirl
You are right about the Catholic Church. The holy bible and real authentic history supports what you said and don't anyone TRY to convince you differently for you told The TRUTH.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

BTW, a Catholic is a Christian – I just wasn’t sure you knew that.

No one is saved simply because they are a member of a denomination - any denomination, including yours. A Christian may be part of any denomination, but membership does not automatically save anyone.

No one is saved simply because they are a member of a denomination - any denomination, including yours. A Christian may be part of any denomination, but membership does not automatically save anyone.

This is absolutely true. Being a member of any Church does not necessarily mean that one have a passport to enjoy the Kingdom of God forever! It does take much more than membership. It takes sacrifice to follow Christ's path which HE already warned us it was a very difficult one.

Which makes sense. Because if good things in Earth are costly and normally need an effort on our part to obtain them, can you imagine the difficulties we have to overcome to be allowed to enter into the Kingdom?

Yes it is and I'm a Christian and I enjoy the conversation, sometimes its stimulating. BTW, a Catholic is a Christian – I just wasn't sure you knew that.

Assuredly I do know that, and I have referenced the fact that a church being of Christian fellowship was said to be one that preaches of Christ.. And that we rejoice in that Truth.
Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.



Walking in Christ is our goal, but this verse doesn't say don't go to Church, does it?

No it does not.. It is however differicult to know what you are implying concerning church with this question. The building? The foundation? or The fellowship? (or) Do you imply all of these being a walk in Christ. In either case, what was referenced was righteousness within the fellowship of churches. The scripture referenced to it was: Phl 3:8-11 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.



?? Which means what in relation to 'Church' ??

Noted once again that the fellowship within the Christian churches is to preach of Christ Jesus The Word, The gospel written in scripture by evidence of the ensamples of Christ the high priest and head, His disciples, the apostles, and prophets known as the foundation.



I'm completely the mercy of our host. If this board is for Christian question and answer, I would certain think Catholics fit that mold. However, unlike others, Catholics aren't constrained to scripture alone. Consequently I don't feel bound by your fetters.

Truth is of the Word being Christ Jesus... I claim nothing other then His Way.

From the Flesh of The Word: Phl 1:20-21 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but [that] with all boldness, as always, [so] now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.



I'm still at a lost how this bears on the topic 'Church'?

The reference was: 1 Corinthians 10:11-13 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

The fellowship of churches, and the teaching within the church would recognize the ensample of all that is written as the Truth in testmony for admonition until the end.

Noted not to fall in temptation of man's way which is common, but to remain stedfast in faith, assured in knowing God is faithful in His hand of strength, not permitting more then one can bear.



“That man is perfect” was never brought up, at least not by me. But, man can be made holy by Christ through Mystical Body of Christ.

Man's sin are washed away, bolted out by the blood of Christ. And Holy communian is in rememberance of Christ as the begotten Son of God, the flesh of The Word, acknowledging His blood being worthy in offering grace in forgiveness of sin. By The Word that is exhorted in what His way, His light can bring to each of us (if) we follow HIm, and hear His voice.

Referenced in Eph 4:13-15 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

This is the Love Peter had for Christ.... and those who follow Christ

*****

Hebrew 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

This is absolutely true. Being a member of any Church does not necessarily mean that one have a passport to enjoy the Kingdom of God forever! It does take much more than membership. It takes sacrifice to follow Christ's path which HE already warned us it was a very difficult one.

Which makes sense. Because if good things in Earth are costly and normally need an effort on our part to obtain them, can you imagine the difficulties we have to overcome to be allowed to enter into the Kingdom?

The cost to enter was paid by Christ on the cross. But you are right, there is a huge cost for us also because once we choose to follow Christ, our lives will change, and we may find ourselves subject to ridicule and persecution. There is a price, and too often people are not aware of that price. But that cost is not to pay for our salvation, but is a consequence of our decision to follow Him.

The cost to enter was paid by Christ on the cross. But you are right, there is a huge cost for us also because once we choose to follow Christ, our lives will change, and we may find ourselves subject to ridicule and persecution. There is a price, and too often people are not aware of that price. But that cost is not to pay for our salvation, but is a consequence of our decision to follow Him.

Right you are! And not only people are not too often aware of the price, but also more often than not, we are not even willing to pay it...

Right you are! And not only people are not too often aware of the price, but also more often than not, we are not even willing to pay it...
If it's that much of an effort and "obligation," someone's attitude needs adjusting. Good works are our thank-you notes to God. If we write those notes grudgingly, God doesn't want them. "Let your light so shine before men... "

If it's that much of an effort and "obligation," someone's attitude needs adjusting. Good works are our thank-you notes to God. If we write those notes grudgingly, God doesn't want them. "Let your light so shine before men...."

You ask what can we do to make this world a better one?

Let me answer you, wondergirl,

Jusr revert to the old good values!

Most of all love each other a little bit more which tantamount to hating each other a little bit less… that implies being more tolerant and understanding with others’ problems and less arrogant and conceited. To think more of how can we help instead of how can we get more… To desire less and give more… To recognize that what we look like to others is not as important as what we feel for others… Our beautiful image will soon be forgotten but our good deeds will not only remain in the memory of those who come after but they will also be like “good assets” in our Heavenly accounting…

Try to leave behind some of the crushing materialism that asphyxiate us and let in through the windows of our heart some fresh spirituality… A

s I say, the good old values… When making love didn’t mean having sex but wooing a girl by the moonlight! Or shaking hands was better than signing a contract… Or hard work meant to progress and advance step by step instead of trying to climb to the top no matter how many wounded and dead bodies we leave behind..
If we should all set out in this direction, perhaps we would not save the world but we could greatly improve it, don’t you think so?

gromitt82,
What very nice wisdom you have.
You're letting you light shine so that others may see the good that you do and give the glory to God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

gromitt82,
What very nice wisdom you have.
You're letting you light shine so that others may see the good that you do and give the glory to God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thanks for your nice words Fred! The awe-inspiring thing is that all these measures depend only upon our good will. Nobody could stop us from applying them everywhere. And yet, we prefer to stick to our immeasurable materialism and let someone else start with the right foot.

And we boast of our high degree of civilization! We have all kind of traffic rules which we more or less abide by because our own life may be at stake but we are adamant to follow God's norms even though our own Salvation (more important than life, for is going to last forever) is at stake too.

O Tempora, O Mores! That said Cicero!

Claude

gromitt82,
True.
And that is part of what belonging to and going to Church is all about.
Fred

The Old Testament tells us of the coming of the Kingdom in the Messianic age. The Kingdom is meant for the sanctification of the twelve tribes as well as the Gentiles. Even kings are to serve and obey (Psalm 21:28 sq.; 2:7-12; 116:1; Zechariah 9:10). It’s clear that a universal faith and common worship is implied, “ And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be prepared in the top of the mountains, and high above the hills: and people shall flow to it. And many nations shall come in haste, and say: Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob: and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth out of Sion, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem.” (Micah 4:1-2) A unified worship, One worship under the authority who teaches and keeps the Divine Truth for all; “And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem: half of them to the east sea, and half of them to the last sea: they shall be in summer and in winter. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day there shall be one Lord, and his name shall be one. “ (Zechariah 14:8)

Prophecies in the Old Testament tell of a future Kingdom holding the authority in the rule of the Messiah; Psalms 2 and 71; Isaiah 9:6 sq. We see that authority in the shepherd that leads his sheep between the fields of Divine Truth (Ezekiel 34:23; 37:24-28)

We see Christ as the first priest of the Kingdom, “The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech.” (Psalm 109:4) And that priesthood is institutionalized in the Kingdom, “For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 1:11). The priesthood in this Messianic Kingdom is a continuation of the priesthood in the Old Testament with continued sacrificial offerings; “Thus saith the Lord: if my covenant, with the day can be made void, and my covenant with the night, that there should not be day and night in their season" (Jeremiah 33:20)

JoeT

Joe,
Thanks much for that.
Fred

"For where two or three are gathered to together in my name, I am there in the
midst of them." Mat. 18-20
The spirt of Jesus lives in each induvedual Chirstian, but He promies to be with
Them in a unique and special way when they gather "in His name" for worship, service,
And mutual encourageement. This can be any place and at any time. This is what
Church to me.

Maggy 3

Maggie 3,
Thanks.
I believe that Church is a formal place or event not just a get-to-gather of a couple or more of God worshipers.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, my husband and I are members of a non-denominational church that believes the bible and teaches His word. I love meeting with a lot of people that call themselves christians and I feel like we are all family in the Lord. I know many people that can't go to a church gathering or building. But God is everytwhere and we can worship Him
Any place, anytime . For many people who are sick and disabled and can't leave
There home to attend a formal meeting place can be as close to the Lord as any one.
I know its what is in our heart that the Lord sees and wants us to love Him with all
Our heart, soul, mind and strength and depending on Him at all times. I think we can praise and worship the Lord anywhere, anytime.

MAGGIE 3

Maggie 3,
I agree that one person or several can praise and worship God any time that they want to.
But in my opinion (and I think that this question is for opinion) that Church id a formal gathering (assembly) of Christians organized (arranged) to meet together as they did in the book of acts in people's homes and later in buildings (some were built) selected for such meetings.
I wish your church well and success.
Peace and kindness,
Fred