In a separate thread, that sort of got a life of its own there was a discussion of batism being only a symbol, and not having a real act.
But there was no bible readings to back this up, from either side.

So perhaps this would be the better place for it.

A very good article worth reading.

Baptism is a symbolic washing with water as a religious practice. It indicates or transmits purification, the washing away of sins, and the start of a renewed life. Baptism is most important in the Christian religion. But many other religions include ceremonies that are similar to Baptism.

Nearly all Christian churches baptize. They follow the example of Saint John the Baptist and the instructions of Jesus Christ and Saint Paul, as set forth in the New Testament. Most churches consider baptism to be the main ceremony signifying a person's entry into the Christian community.

In a typical Christian baptism ceremony, the person being baptized makes a statement of faith in Jesus. Sponsors, called godparents, may make the statement on behalf of infants. In most cases, a priest or minister then pronounces the person's name and administers the water, saying, "I baptize you in the Name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," or similar words. Often, infants are christened (named) during the baptism ceremony. Christening also refers to baptism itself.

The meaning and procedure of baptism vary among Christian churches. For example, the Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Methodist, Reformed, and Roman Catholic churches consider baptism a sacrament or ordinance. According to these churches, baptism gives or expresses God's grace in a person, regardless of the individual's awareness of it. As a result, they baptize infants as well as adults. Most of these churches usually administer baptismal water by pouring or sprinkling it. The Eastern Orthodox Churches practice immersion (submerging a person into water).

Baptist and similar churches believe that baptism should follow a voluntary, public statement of faith in Jesus Christ as savior. Therefore, they do not baptize people who are too young to realize the significance of such a statement.

Contributor: Robert S. Ellwood, Jr. Ph.D. Prof. of Religion, Univ. of Southern California.

A very good article worth reading.

Baptism is a symbolic washing with water as a religious practice. It indicates or transmits purification, the washing away of sins, and the start of a renewed life. Baptism is most important in the Christian religion. But many other religions include ceremonies that are similar to Baptism.

Nearly all Christian churches baptize. They follow the example of Saint John the Baptist and the instructions of Jesus Christ and Saint Paul, as set forth in the New Testament. Most churches consider baptism to be the main ceremony signifying a person's entry into the Christian community.

In a typical Christian baptism ceremony, the person being baptized makes a statement of faith in Jesus. Sponsors, called godparents, may make the statement on behalf of infants. In most cases, a priest or minister then pronounces the person's name and administers the water, saying, "I baptize you in the Name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," or similar words. Often, infants are christened (named) during the baptism ceremony. Christening also refers to baptism itself.

The meaning and procedure of baptism vary among Christian churches. For example, the Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Methodist, Reformed, and Roman Catholic churches consider baptism a sacrament or ordinance. According to these churches, baptism gives or expresses God's grace in a person, regardless of the individual's awareness of it. As a result, they baptize infants as well as adults. Most of these churches usually administer baptismal water by pouring or sprinkling it. The Eastern Orthodox Churches practice immersion (submerging a person into water).

Baptist and similar churches believe that baptism should follow a voluntary, public statement of faith in Jesus Christ as savior. Therefore, they do not baptize people who are too young to realize the significance of such a statement.

Contributor: Robert S. Ellwood, Jr., Ph.D., Prof. of Religion, Univ. of Southern California.

That's a very nice little summary. Thanks for finding it and posting it here.

Baptism is a symbolic washing with water as a religious practice. It indicates or transmits purification, the washing away of sins, and the start of a renewed life. Baptism is most important in the Christian religion. But many other religions include ceremonies that are similar to Baptism.

This describes baptism from a wider perspective of a person speaking about how he sees baptism practiced.

Biblically speaking, baptism is a symbolic act identifying us with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and is an act of obedience which takes place after we receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

Sort of depends on what part of the Bible you are reading. The old testament the ceremonial washing was to cleanse oneself for a ceremony or ritual. In the new testament it has come to mean a washing away of the old self and a rebirth if you will as a new person in Christ. It is also an affirmation and public statement of your faith in Jesus Christ.

Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Baptism was an act of righteousness that Christ fulfilled (brought forth) to be done..

God Our Father in heaven then said: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Christ did as His Father wilt.

We are to do the will of God, we are to follow Christ, walking in Christ.. Christ shows the way.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me (John 10:27)

In a seperate thread, that sort of got a life of its own there was a discussion of batism being only a symbol, and not having a real act.
But there was no bible readings to back this up, from either side.

So perhaps this would be the better place for it.

Baptism is the work of God. When one is Baptized, the visible action of the water washing the body symbolizes the real yet invisible action of the Spirit washing the soul and regenerating (rebirth) of the man in the Spirit.

Titus 3 5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost;

1 Peter 3 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

John 3 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts Of Apostles 2 38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Colossians 2
11 In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, but in the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead.

Baptism is the work of God. When one is Baptized, the visible action of the water washing the body symbolizes the real yet invisible action of the Spirit washing the soul and regenerating (rebirth) of the man in the Spirit.

Water baptism is a symbolic act which a person who has already been saved and washed of their sins performs in obedience to God's word.

Water baptism is a symbolic act which a person who has already been saved and washed of their sins performs in obedience to God's word.

It is must more then that Tom.. It is shown to be done in fulfillment of righteousness.. And we are to be righteous for He was righteousness.. To walk in Him, you must be baptized in the same manner as Christ Himself fulfilled.

Baptism also joins us together in Christ by being dead and buried of this world.. Newness of live, not of this world but in Christ.

Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

I Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water baptism is a symbolic act which a person who has already been saved and washed of their sins performs in obedience to God's word.

Not quite Tom.

In order to understand this topic, you must understand the justification of Abraham.

Let me begin from the beginning:

Was Abraham baptized? I think you will agree the answer is, no. But you might also ask, "What does Abraham have to do with this?"

Well, Abraham is the classic example of justification used by both St. Paul and St. James. St. Paul and St. James are Christian writers and they are using Abraham's justification as the foundation for Christian justification. You see?

Yet, Abraham did not go to heaven! Not directly. It is Catholic doctrine that the Patriarchs went to Limbo of the Fathers.

Why?

This is the CRUX of the matter. Because they were not baptized. Baptism is Christian justification. It is the new justification of God from the inside. It is SANCTIFICATION. It is the application of sanctifying grace to the soul. Without this sanctifying grace, no one can enter heaven.

Yet both St. Paul and St. James say that Abraham was justified. What is this justification that they speak of?

It is Justicia Dei Extra Nos. It is Justification by our own efforts in response to grace. It is justification by faith. Justification by works.

The Catholic Encyclopedia explains it thus. This excerpt begins in the midst of explaining the effects of sanctifying grace. Note the part in bold:

The formal cause of justification
... and sanctity is universally termed "sanctifying (or habitual) grace", and stands in marked contrast to an exterior, imputed sanctity, as well as to the idea of merely covering and concealing sin. By this, however, we do not assert that the "justitia Dei extra nos" is of no importance in the process of justification. For, even if it is not the formalcause of justification ( causa formalis), it is nevertheless its true exemplar (causa exemplaris), inasmuch as the soul receives a sanctity in imitation of God's own holiness...
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Justification (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm)

This is the only justification which was available to people of the Old Covenant. Baptism was not introduced until the advent of Jesus Christ. Sanctifying grace was not released until Jesus died on the Cross.

So, justification was a one step process in the Old Testament.
A two step process in the New.

1. Justification of faith and works.
2. True justification of regeneration by water and Spirit. (i.e. Baptism)

Baptism is the work of God. When one is Baptized, the visible action of the water washing the body symbolizes the real yet invisible action of the Spirit washing the soul and regenerating (rebirth) of the man in the Spirit. This is why Christian justification by Baptism is so radically superior to Old Testament justification.

Not quite Tom.

In order to understand this topic, you must understand the justification of Abraham.

Let me begin from the beginning:

Was Abraham baptized? I think you will agree the answer is, no. But you might also ask, "What does Abraham have to do with this?"

Well, Abraham is the classic example of justification used by both St. Paul and St. James. St. Paul and St. James are Christian writers and they are using Abraham's justification as the foundation for Christian justification. You see?

I understand justification and sanctification, but Abraham is not used as the basis for baptism - it is the symbolic ritual of the mikveh which is used as the basis for baptism - indeed it IS baptism.

Heb 9:9-10
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
NKJV

The reference here to ritual washings is the same word used elsewhere in the New Testament where it is translated as “baptism”.

Heb 9:11-15
But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
NKJV

This part of the passage compares the blood sacrifices in the Old Testament times with the one sacrifice which was capable of taking away sins of men, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. What we see here is that the Old Testament rituals were prophetic of that which was to come. We see a comparison to the Old testament sacrifices to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross which cleanses our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Heb 9:16-18
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
NKJV

The focus of the covenant is the blood, both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old Covenant us the prophetic symbolism of animal blood and the New Covenant focuses on the blood shed on the cross of Christ, the only way that we can be truly saved through the forgiveness of sins.

Heb 9:19-22
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
NKJV

The key is given here again. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.

Heb 9:23
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
NKJV

The ritual washings and blood sacrifices were for purification, but they were just symbolic of the only means of purification from sin which was effective, the sacrifice on the cross.

Heb 9:24-28
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
NKJV

Romans chapter 6 re-states this truth, that water baptism was prophetic of the death and resurrection of Christ. In Romans 6, Paul referred to water baptism as the “likeness” of the death and resurrection.

Baptism was symbolic of the coming of Christ, just as many or most of the ancient rituals in the Old Testament pointed to Christ. And we keep some of them today, for example, Passover was pointing to the blood of Christ, whereas Easter looks backwards to the cross. Baptism in the OT Testament testified prophetically of the death and resurrection of Christ on the cross, and today we use baptism as symbolic of the same thing, only now looking back.

But the salvation is not in the symbolic act as scripture says, but rather it is to point us to that which does saved - to the blood shed by Christ on the cross of Calvary.

I understand justification and sanctification, but Abraham is not used as the basis for baptism

I believe that is what I said.


- it is the symbolic ritual of the mikveh which is used as the basis for baptism - indeed it IS baptism.

In the Old Testament. Baptism means washing. And yes, it was symbolic.

In addition, the pouring of water remains symbolic of the Holy Spirits action in the soul.


Heb 9:9-10
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
NKJV

Correct. It was symbolic.


The reference here to ritual washings is the same word used elsewhere in the New Testament where it is translated as “baptism”.

Correct.


Heb 9:11-15
But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
NKJV

All true.


This part of the passage compares the blood sacrifices in the Old Testament times with the one sacrifice which was capable of taking away sins of men, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. What we see here is that the Old Testament rituals were prophetic of that which was to come. We see a comparison to the Old testament sacrifices to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross which cleanses our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Still true.


Heb 9:16-18
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
NKJV

The focus of the covenant is the blood, both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old Covenant us the prophetic symbolism of animal blood and the New Covenant focuses on the blood shed on the cross of Christ, the only way that we can be truly saved through the forgiveness of sins.

Still true.



Heb 9:19-22
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
NKJV

The key is given here again. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.

Still true.


Heb 9:23
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
NKJV

The ritual washings and blood sacrifices were for purification, but they were just symbolic of the only means of purification from sin which was effective, the sacrifice on the cross.

Still true.


Heb 9:24-28
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
NKJV

Romans chapter 6 re-states this truth, that water baptism was prophetic of the death and resurrection of Christ. In Romans 6, Paul referred to water baptism as the “likeness” of the death and resurrection.

Lets review Romans 6 in detail:
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

It sounds as though being buried in baptism into death we are therefore freed of sin.


Baptism was symbolic of the coming of Christ, just as many or most of the ancient rituals in the Old Testament pointed to Christ. And we keep some of them today, for example, Passover was pointing to the blood of Christ, whereas Easter looks backwards to the cross. Baptism in the OT Testament testified prophetically of the death and resurrection of Christ on the cross, and today we use baptism as symbolic of the same thing, only now looking back.

This is all true. The problem is that you stop with the symbol. But the symbol of washing points to the action of the Holy Spirit on the soul. We are regenerated during Baptism, not before. Otherwise, Abraham would have been regenerated and gone to heaven. But he was not regenerated. That only takes place in Baptism.


But the salvation is not in the symbolic act as scripture says, but rather it is to point us to that which does saved - to the blood shed by Christ on the cross of Calvary.

Still true. But the blood of Christ is not symbol. The symbol of water washing our body points to the actual washing of our soul in the blood of Christ.

Sincerely,

In the Old Testament. Baptism means washing. And yes, it was symbolic.

I am glad that you agree that baptism is symbolic.

And we keep some of them today, for example, Passover was pointing to the blood of Christ, whereas Easter looks backwards to the cross. Baptism in the OT Testament testified prophetically of the death and resurrection of Christ on the cross, and today we use baptism as symbolic of the same thing, only now looking back.

But the salvation is not in the symbolic act as scripture says, but rather it is to point us to that which does saved - to the blood shed by Christ on the cross of Calvary.


Hi Tom,

My Grandfather once told me, that in raising my children, don't say anything you don't mean. And he said, For neither did our Father in heaven say anything He didn't mean.

So what I do when reading scripture, is try to hear / see all our Father has offered in doing His Will. We need to look deeper at what our Father has told us.

Passover pointed to the blood, and the unleaven bread.

Christ became our Passover in that His blood was shed once, and for all.. (Free from sin)

Still today we honor the unleaven bread that Christ was, He walked in the flesh of man as the incorruptible body that God dwelled in, and that as Christ walked in the Father.

This ensamples today as we should do. Christ dwells in us, and we walk in Christ. (as the baptized flesh body unity in Christ)(For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body 1 Cr 12:13) We become the incorruptible, the righteous, the holiness because we are in Christ, and He dwells in us. (Matthew 20:23)

John baptized with water but we are baptized with the Holy Ghost. (Acts 1:5)

We now are baptized with the Holy Spirit and the fire. (Luke 3:16 Matthew 3:11)

The fire of our Father is to burn anything which is not fruitful, that which will be cast into the fire. The working of blood that was shed for grace, and the fire is the reaping of the flesh which molds us into perfection. .Newness of Life... ( Matthew 3:12 John 15:6 Luke 3: 17)

Baptism is each individual choice to confess their faith in Christ Jesus and willingness to walk in Christ. Noted: Christ fulfilled and suffered to righteousness in baptism

Tom, scripture goes on to tell us how we then are dead and buried in Christ through baptism.. Able then to raise as He did..

Baptism is much more then what man has imagined .. And man has made void the Truth of what our Father has told us. In the traditions of man (the corruptable leaven) many have lost and fallen to deception.

I am glad that you agree that baptism is symbolic.

No one questions that the water washing the body is a symbolic aspect of Baptism. But that symbolic aspect represents the actual, real, laver of regeneration and renewal which the Holy Spirit accomplishes in our soul.

No one questions that the water washing the body is a symbolic aspect of Baptism. But that symbolic aspect represents the actual, real, laver of regeneration and renewal which the Holy Spirit accomplishes in our soul.

Agreed. It is the work of the Holy Spirit which takes place prior to water baptism that actually washes our sin, and that is part of what baptism symbolizes.

Agreed. It is the work of the Holy Spirit which takes place prior to water baptism that actually washes our sin, and that is part of what baptism symbolizes.

Not prior to, but during. That is why Abraham, the example of justification before Baptism, did not enter heaven. He was not regenerated because he had not been washed by the laver of regeneration which only happens in Baptism.

This is also why Cornelius had to be Baptized. In order that he be washed in the washing of regeneration and thereby renewed and born again of the Spirit.

Cornelius was not born again until he was Baptized.

Agreed. It is the work of the Holy Spirit which takes place prior to water baptism that actually washes our sin, and that is part of what baptism symbolizes.

The newness of life by baptism is fulfilled in the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Not prior to, but during. That is why Abraham, the example of justification before Baptism, did not enter heaven. He was not regenerated because he had not been washed by the laver of regeneration which only happens in Baptism.

This is also why Cornelius had to be Baptized. In order that he be washed in the washing of regeneration and thereby renewed and born again of the Spirit.

Cornelius was not born again until he was Baptized.

Baptism wasn’t all that strange to Jews. It’s my recollection that others, other than St. John the Baptist, had a Baptism ceremony. Could it be that the Baptism needed both form and matter? Obviously water is the matter; maybe you can tell us the form? And why is it that all sacraments have both form and matter; could it be that participants receive temporal and spiritual graces?

Baptism wasn't all that strange to Jews. It's my recollection that others, other than St. John the Baptist, had a Baptism ceremony. Could it be that the Baptism needed both form and matter? Obviously water is the matter; maybe you can tell us the form? And why is it that all sacraments have both form and matter; could it be that participants receive temporal and spiritual graces?


Baptism wasn't all that strange to Jews. It's my recollection that others, other than St. John the Baptist, had a Baptism ceremony. Could it be that the Baptism needed both form and matter?

Needed? I don't know that I would say, needed. But that is what God willed.


Obviously water is the matter; maybe you can tell us the form?

I baptize you, ______, in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Simultaneously dip or pour water three times.


And why is it that all sacraments have both form and matter; could it be that participants receive temporal and spiritual graces?

Not as I understand it. What are the temporal graces associated with Baptism to which you refer?

***(edited: Three hours later. OOOOh! You mean the Sacraments of healing!) You are correct! There are temporal graces associated with some Sacraments.***

Here is how I understand the Sacraments. Since we are speaking of Baptism, lets stick to that for the examples.

God has always provided us graces through matter. Do you remember how God washed away the sinful humanity in the waters of the flood? Do you remember how Naaman was washed clean of illness in the waters of the Jordan? Do you remember how the Jews were saved by walking through the waters of the Red Sea?

God has worked through matter throughout history to provide us with grace. But these miracles were one of a kind. They were moments in history when God stepped in to affect salvation history.

In the New Covenant, God has instituted Sacraments. Literally, Mysteries of His Grace, through which He acts invisibly by visible signs. Ex opere operato-by the very fact they are done. These visible signs are speech acts. That is, they are words and actions which accomplish that which they signify. This speech act, this covenant, changes things. One moment before it occurred, we were unregenerate. One moment after, we are regenerated, renewed and born again of the Holy Spirit.

In Baptism, the form and matter are to say, I baptize you in the name of the Father... (pour or dip into water)... in the name of the Son... (pour or dip into water)... and in the name of the Holy Spirit (pour or dip into water). Amen.

The words signify that God has called us by name. The Amen is an oath formula signifying that we have said yes to God. The water signifies that we have been washed clean of our sins.

The Form and the Matter are then the perceptible sign that the grace of the Covenant is enacted. We are newborn babes in the Spirit.

I may be wrong though Joe. Tell me if that corresponds with how you understand the Sacraments. Especially Baptism.

Not prior to, but during.

You need to have read through Acts 10 where we see an example of the Holy Spirit indwelling saved person prior to water baptism.

You need to have read through Acts 10 where we see an example of the Holy Spirit indwelling saved person prior to water baptism.

Does the text say that the Holy Spirit was indwelling the Cornelius? Or are you reading that into the text?

Does the text say that the Holy Spirit was indwelling the Cornelius? Or are you reading that into the text?
Read a little bit further:

Acts 10:46-48
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

I may be wrong though Joe. Tell me if that corresponds with how you understand the Sacraments. Especially Baptism.

You know, if you would just be wrong once, it would really help my ego to catch some small error.

Yes, that’s exactly my understanding of the Sacraments.


In the New Covenant, God has instituted Sacraments. Literally, Mysteries of His Grace, through which He acts invisibly by visible signs. Ex opere operato-by the very fact they are done. These visible signs are speech acts. That is, they are words and actions which accomplish that which they signify. This speech act, this covenant, changes things. One moment before it occurred, we were unregenerate. One moment after, we are regenerated, renewed and born again of the Holy Spirit.


I'd like to add an emphasis to the ‘Mysteries of His Grace,’ especially Baptism. In Baptism there is a gift received so holy, a gift rooted in the soul so deep it can’t be lost for a life time, no not a life time, it can’t be lost in an eternity. Baptism incorporates us in with the mystical body of Christ, impressing into the soul the ineradicable mark of Christ; making us participants, citizens, and partakers in His Sacrifice. The mystery, the mysticism isn’t like erasable pencil marks, but once applied, the waters itch first, rills, then gullies, then river valleys filling deep with faith. Only a small drop causes an ocean of cleansing waters. Speaking of’ symbolic’, THIS baptism makes the good ol’ Southern Baptist dunk into quintessential symbolic s; in fact ”he would commit a grievous sin, in matters concerning the salvation of his soul, in the mere fact of preferring uncertainty to certainty.” Without the Church such laving waters are somehow diverted, unable to remake the landscape of the soul.

So, there’s a reason beyond just corporate pride when St. Augustine said, “There are two propositions, moreover, which we affirm, — that baptism exists in the Catholic Church, and that in it alone can it be rightly received” (St. Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists (Book I, 3)


Baptism is only one part of the many parts that makeup our redemption. It comes alive inside the penitent’s box, it radiates at in the presence of the Eucharist; “To prevent which … does not cease striving that they may come and be healed by the medicine of reconciliation, through the bond of peace.” (St. Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists (Book I, 3)

JoeT

Read a little bit further:

Acts 10:46-48
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

In other words, St. Peter says, now that they have received the Spirit, they need to be reborn, regenerated. As Jesus said:
John 3 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

In other words, St. Peter says, now that they have received the Spirit, they need to be reborn, regenerated. As Jesus said:
John 3 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

No, he said nothing of the sort. If you think that he did, show me the specific words.


The Holy Spirit, BTW, does not indwell unbelievers:

John 14:16-18
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV

No, he said nothing of the sort. If you think that he did, show me the specific words.


The Holy Spirit, BTW, does not indwell unbelievers:

John 14:16-18
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV

Those that do not believe do not follow Christ. But those who do follow, and are baptized, walk in Christ and He in them. Christ did free us from sin with His blood shed.. Now the body, the flesh must follow as servants unto God's will just as Christ ensampled.. Being baptized begins the newness of live.
1 Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

However when baptized you are in the Spirit and are (dead in Christ, buried the flesh)

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

As servants unto God's will..

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Those that do not believe do not follow Christ. But those who do follow, and are baptized, walk in Christ and He in them.

Not everyone who is saved is baptized, just as not everyone who is saved obeys God perfectly in other areas (actually, no one does). To say that we MUST be obedient in this symbolic ritual to be saved is to go back to a legalistic gospel.


Being baptized begins the newness of live.

Scripture does not say this anywhere - it does say that it is SYMBOLIC, but nowhere does it say that it BEGINS newness of life.

Not everyone who is saved is baptized, just as not everyone who is saved obeys God perfectly in other areas (actually, no one does). To say that we MUST be obedient in this symbolic ritual to be saved is to go back to a legalistic gospel.

When baptized the individual is gifted with the Spirit ... and with fire... His hand fans the fire continuely to purge the floor .. HIS house where He dwells within you should be the temple for HIM. The servant of obedience and righteousness.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.




Scripture does not say this anywhere - it does say that it is SYMBOLIC, but nowhere does it say that it BEGINS newness of life.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

No, he said nothing of the sort. If you think that he did, show me the specific words.


The Holy Spirit, BTW, does not indwell unbelievers:

John 14:16-18
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV

What is the context of this discussion? Indwelling or regenerating and renewing?

Baptism is the washing of grace by which God regenerates and renews the believer.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Not everyone who is saved is baptized,

True.


just as not everyone who is saved obeys God perfectly in other areas (actually, no one does).

OK.


To say that we MUST be obedient in this symbolic ritual to be saved is to go back to a legalistic gospel.

Then I suppose you consider Christ's Gospel legalistic. Because Christ says:
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Scripture does not say this anywhere - it does say that it is SYMBOLIC, but nowhere does it say that it BEGINS newness of life.

Where does Scripture say it is only symbolic?

You know, if you would just be wrong once, it would really help my ego to catch some small error.

Yes, that’s exactly my understanding of the Sacraments.

I'd like to add an emphasis to the ‘Mysteries of His Grace,’ especially Baptism. In Baptism there is a gift received so holy, a gift rooted in the soul so deep it can’t be lost for a life time, no not a life time, it can’t be lost in an eternity. ....Baptism is only one part of the many parts that makeup our redemption. It comes alive inside the penitent’s box, it radiates at in the presence of the Eucharist; “To prevent which … does not cease striving that they may come and be healed by the medicine of reconciliation, through the bond of peace.” (St. Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists (Book I, 3)

JoeT

Beautifully expressed Joe. That is why missing the Mass is such a heinous sin described as trampling underfoot the blood of Christ by which we were sanctified:

Heb 10
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

That washing of the body represents the washing of the soul in the blood of Christ which sanctifies us and incorporates us into His body.

What is the context of this discussion? Indwelling or regenerating and renewing?

Baptism is the washing of grace by which God regenerates and renews the believer.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Thread is baptism...


Titus 3:5 is in reference to a new man, putting them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates and ready to do good works. (Eph 5: 26) (Matthew 19:28) washing is primarily a vessel for bathing.. Romans 12:2 renewing meaning as in the mind

Solid choice in all that is written in The Word/ The Flesh of Chirst

Eph 5:26-27 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Not everyone who is saved is baptized,
True.

Then that ends it. We agree that Baptism is not essential for salvation.

When baptized the individual is gifted with the Spirit

Acts 10 gives an example of a person gifted with the Holy Spirit before salvation.

Thread is baptism...

Yes it is.

How to explain?

To us, Baptism is not just a bath. It is a gift of renewal and regeneration by the Blood of Christ in the Holy Spirit.

Every time we go to Mass we apply Holy Water to our forehead and make the sign of the Cross, thus renewing our Covenant with God which was first applied in the Sacrament of Baptism.

In addition, we read the Scriptures and thus relive the history of the family to which we were joined by the grace of God.

And we also pray several prayers in which we renounce Satan and sin and thereby also remember our Baptism and our union with God.

Finally, we receive the other Sacraments within the context of the Mass.

So, anyone who misses the Mass intentionally, by that very fact, is repudiating his Baptism and trampling underfoot the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and counting for nought the blood of Christ which He shed for our salvation.

So, I'm not trying to change the subject. Just explaining the importance of Baptism to the Catholic.

Acts 10 gives an example of a person gifted with the Holy Spirit before salvation.

Tom I have no doubt that the Spirit warned Peter about the 3 men...(Acts 10:19) nor do I doubt that they told the truth about the angel in his house that sent him to Peter (Acts 11:13) nor do I doubt that at that time God made them clean (Act 10:28)...

(Acts 11:15) speaks of how the Holy Spirit began in them just as it had begun in Peter

REMEMBER: Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?


Acts 11 is about how (all may come into the house of the Lord to be One in Christ)

Question: were the Gentiles baptized later? YES

Reality today...

Can you imagine today being cleaned any other way then by Christ's blood? I can't..
Nor can I imagine today the Spirit being joined to us without the confessed faith in Christ Jesus and baptism


It's all about what Christ fulfilled.. (Matthew 3:15)

Tom I have no doubt that the Spirit warned Peter about the 3 men...(Acts 10:19) nor do I doubt that they told the truth about the angel in his house that sent him to Peter (Acts 11:13) nor do I doubt that at that time God made them clean (Act 10:28)...

(Acts 11:15) speaks of how the Holy Spirit began in them just as it had begun in Peter


I note that you skipped right over this section of scripture.

Acts 10:46-48
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

I note that you skipped right over this section of scripture.

Acts 10:46-48
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

Yes, it had already been noted in previous posting..

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Tom: What meaning has this scripture to us as servants? Can we expect to be a servant to Christ if we do not walk in His ways?
Mark 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

I note that you skipped right over this section of scripture.

Acts 10:46-48
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

No one skipped it TJ. It has been noted. The simple fact is that we don't agree with your interpretation. So the question remains. Where does this say that Cornelius was regenerated before he was baptized? It doesn't. It is something which you are reading into the Scriptures.

However, Cornelius' justification corresponds exactly to the justification of Abraham. God pronounced Abraham just. Yet Abraham did not go to heaven when he died. But to Limbo. That is Catholic doctrine with which I believe you have previously agreed. If not, let me know.

Now, if Abraham had been baptized, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ would have been applied to him. And he would have been regenerated and there would be no problem his going to heaven. But he wasn't. He had to await the Cross of our Lord before the blood of Christ was applied to him in the afterlife. Much like we believe the blood of Christ is applied to the saints who are purified in purgatory today.

Therefore, although Cornelius was justified according to the justification of repentance and received the Holy Spirit just as the Apostles had received. There still remained for him to be regenerated and renewed, born again, in Christ.

No one skipped it TJ. It has been noted. The simple fact is that we don't agree with your interpretation.

It is not an interpretation - it says straight out that they were given the Holy Spirit. The only question is - do you believe what God said in His word or not.


So the question remains. Where does this say that Cornelius was regenerated before he was baptized? It doesn't. It is something which you are reading into the Scriptures.

I should you that scripture says that the unsaved cannot receive the Holy Spirit, only those who are saved. Again, do you believe what God's word says or not?

It is not an interpretation - it says straight out that they were given the Holy Spirit. the only question is - do you believe what God said in His word or not.


I should you that scripture says that the unsaved cannot receive the Holy Spirit, only those who are saved. Again, do you believe what God's word says or not?

I believe the Word of God, it is your word I distrust.

I believe the Word of God, it is your word I distrust.

Good! That is exactly what I am trying to get your believe.

Good! That is exactly what i am trying to get your believe.

No, there's a big difference between what you are saying and what the Word of God actually says.

No, there's a big difference between what you are saying and what the Word of God actually says.

Really? So far I see God's word explicitly saying the following:

- Only those saved can receive the Holy Spirit
- There are those who receive the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism.

Where do you find God's word denying these two facts?

Really? So far I see God's word explicitly saying the following:

- Only those saved can receive the Holy Spirit
- There are those who receive the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism.

Where do you find God's word denying these two facts?

I don't deny those two facts.

But there is another which you deny. God's Word says that we are born again in Baptism:

John 3

1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I don't deny those two facts.

Good - we are making progress. Those facts alone are adequate to prove that baptism is not required for salvation. Since scripture does not contradict itself, clearly you are incorrect when you claim that the next passage contradicts what you agree God's word says.


But there is another which you deny. God's Word says that we are born again in Baptism:

John 3

1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic.


Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Since that passage does not specify the media of washing, you have given your own private interpretation to it. But scripture does tell us what the media of washing is and it is not water.

Rev 1:4-7
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

So despite your efforts to suggest to the contrary, all scripture is in concert that salvation does not depend upon baptism.

Good - we are making progress. Those facts alone are adequate to prove that baptism is not required for salvation.

That is Catholic Teaching. The Church teaches that those who have been converted to God and seek Baptism, if they should die, will receive a Baptism of desire.

And those who, though they may not have been baptized, but are martyred for Christ, will receive the Baptism of Blood.


Since scripture does not contradict itself, clearly you are incorrect when you claim that the next passage contradicts what you agree God's word says.

Nope. The verse you provided does not prove that Cornelius was regenerated or reborn before he was baptized. In fact, Baptism would not be necessary otherwise.


John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic.

No He doesn't. You equate the water with the flesh.

The pouring of the water signifies washing. But it also signifies the water (i.e. amniotic fluid) which is released when one is born.

He is equating the first birth with born of the flesh, the second birth (i.e. born again) with the birth of the spirit.

The first birth is of water and flesh. The second birth is of water and Spirit.


Since that passage does not specify the media of washing, you have given your own private interpretation to it. But scripture does tell us what the media of washing is and it is not water.

Water is the universally recognized media of washing. That is why it is such an apt sign for the Sacrament.


Rev 1:4-7
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

Unless you are going to cut yourself and bleed into a bucket before you perform a baptism, I don't know how you are going to baptize anyone in blood.

And even if you did, blood isn't very good media for washing. Blood leaves stains.

And finally, even if you did, your blood is not Christ's blood. So where are you going to get a bucket of Jesus' blood in order to baptize.

That should be enough proof that the verse is metaphorical. We are said to be washed in Christ's blood because He died for our sins and shed His blood on the Cross for us. But we aren't literally washed in His blood.

Therefore, again, the metaphor of water used to washes away dirt from the body is very effective at showing how the Holy Spirit washes sin away from our soul.


So despite your efforts to suggest to the contrary, all scripture is in concert that salvation does not depend upon baptism.

I'm afraid you've missed the boat.

The Catholic Church teaches according to the Scriptures, that Baptism is necessary for rebirth and regeneration in this life.

Other forms of Baptism or washing of the Spirit are applied by God's grace to those who die desiring union with God. Namely, Baptism of desire and Baptism of blood.

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic.


One step different that seems to be misunderstood in this scripture by what you have said... First we are born of water(within the womb) the flesh... then we are born again unto the Spirit in baptism.

Remember John the Baptist words: I baptize with water OT, but He who comes, baptizes of the Holy Spirit and fire.

What is neglected in what we have learned is the details of when to be baptised.. And this could be why some insist that not all baptized are saved..

First we have the law (the school master) .. which leads us to Christ.. (Christ blood shed has brought us freedom from the curse which was the reason for the law).. Then confessed faith in Christ bring the act of following Him (righteousness).. Now righteousness holds the straight line of Truth of the Word.. The Word says be baptized of the Holy Spirit and fire... The Word says we can be baptized when we confess our faith in Christ... The Word says the disciples baptized when there was enough water... The Word says Christ suffered righteousness in fulfillment of baptism. Suffer it NOW!

When you can be baptized (Acts 8:38)
Water used to baptize (John 3:23)

Should one fall from Christ after this... it's a no deal

That is Catholic Teaching.

I am not discussing your denominational distinctives. I am discussing scripture.


Nope. The verse you provided does not prove that Cornelius was regenerated or reborn before he was baptized. In fact, Baptism would not be necessary otherwise.

First, you already agreed on these points, so now you are backtracking. Second, are you saying that scripture DOES contradict itself? And your last point is circular reasoning.


No He doesn't. You equate the water with the flesh.

No, scripture does. I just quoted it.



Water is the universally recognized media of washing. That is why it is such an apt sign for the Sacrament.

Then are you denying those scriptures that tell us that it is the blood of Jesus that washes our sins?


That should be enough proof that the verse is metaphorical. We are said to be washed in Christ's blood because He died for our sins and shed His blood on the Cross for us. But we aren't literally washed in His blood.

Then are you saying that scripture lied about our sins being washed by His blood? You do know that Heb 9:22 says that without blood there is no remission of sins, don't you?


I'm afraid you've missed the boat.

The Catholic Church teaches according to the Scriptures, that Baptism is necessary for rebirth and regeneration in this life.

I've missed your denominational boat, and for that I am grateful to my Saviour. My eternity is in His hands, not your denominational teachings.

One step different that seems to be misunderstood in this scripture by what you have said... First we are born of water(within the womb) the flesh... then we are born again unto the Spirit in baptism.

Scripture does not say that we are born again by water, but by the Word of God.

1 Peter 1:22-25
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because

"All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever."
NKJV



Remember John the Baptist words: I baptize with water OT, but He who comes, baptizes of the Holy Spirit and fire.


Right. And Ephesians says that there is ONE baptism which is essential - which is it, water or the Holy Spirit?

Scripture does not say that we are born again by water, but by the Word of God.

1 Peter 1:22-25
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because

"All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever."
NKJV

As shown: The Word incorruptible was shown by Christ Jesus.. HIS way to follow.. righteousness Suffer it NOW!

Now righteousness holds the straight line of Truth of the Word.. The Word says be baptized of the Holy Spirit and fire... The Word says we can be baptized when we confess our faith in Christ... The Word says the disciples baptized when there was enough water... The Word says Christ suffered righteousness in fulfillment of baptism. Suffer it NOW![/B]

As shown: The Word incorruptible was shown by Christ Jesus.. HIS way to follow.. righteousness Suffer it NOW!

Now righteousness holds the straight line of Truth of the Word.. The Word says be baptized of the Holy Spirit and fire... The Word says we can be baptized when we confess our faith in Christ... The Word says the disciples baptized when there was enough water... The Word says Christ suffered righteousness in fulfillment of baptism. Suffer it NOW![/B]

Right. What the Word does not say is that baptism in water is essential for salvation.

It does says that those who believe will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (John 7:39, and it does say that the world (the unsaved) cannot receive the Holy Holy Spirit (John 14:17), therefore we know that whoever receives the Holy Spirit is saved (i.e. Acts 10:47).

Right. And Ephesians says that there is ONE baptism which is essential - which is it, water or the Holy Spirit?


Freed from sin and death ... now, a servant imprisoned by the LORD... Loyality and honour given unto God...

Eph 4:1-2-3 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

That unity is within each of us.. One body and one spirit
Look at the steps.. Knowledge of One Lord, Faith in One Lord, One Baptism unity with One Lord
Eph 4:5-6 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

Unity within One Lord and one body is necessary in baptism so that each goes on to be taught by Christ. Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph 4:26 If so be that ye have heard HIM, and have been taught by HIM, as the truth is in Jesus:

Freed from sin and death ... now, a servant imprisoned by the LORD... Loyality and honour given unto God...

Eph 4:1-2-3 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

That unity is within each of us.. One body and one spirit
Look at the steps.. Knowledge of One Lord, Faith in One Lord, One Baptism unity with One Lord
Eph 4:5-6 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

Unity within One Lord and one body is necessary in baptism so that each goes on to be taught by Christ. Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph 4:26 If so be that ye have heard HIM, and have been taught by HIM, as the truth is in Jesus:


You did not answer the question - what is that "one baptism" spoken of in Ephesians. Is it the Holy Spirit, or is it water?

Right. What the Word does not say is that baptism in water is essential for salvation.

It does says that those who believe will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (John 7:39, and it does say that thw world (the unsaved) cannot receive the Holy Holy Spirit (John 14:17), therefore we know that whoever receives the Holy Spirit is saved (i.e. Acts 10:47).

Baptism is unity of one with Christ. and... HIS Fire to teach you along the way. It is a newness to life as I have referenced.

As babes born by water(womb), many remain blessed and protected. Yet babes are weak and give suck to deception. When baptized the teaching comes from within by Christ.. Walking in HIM and HE in us.

Baptism is unity of one with Christ. and... HIS Fire to teach you along the way. It is a newness to life as I have referenced.

As babes born by water(womb), many remain blessed and protected. Yet babes are weak and give suck to deception. When baptized the teaching comes from within by Christ.. Walking in HIM and HE in us.

You still did not answer the question - is the one baptism spoken of in Ephesians of water, or of the Holy Spirit?

This is Baptism: And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:


Our Father's Words: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Do we do what is pleasing to the eye of God? Is it essentail?

This is Baptism: And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:


Our Father's Words: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Do we do what is pleasing to the eye of God? Is it essential?

So if it is of water, and since Ephesians says that there is one essential baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit becomes non-essential. Is that what you are telling me?

Yet, Jesus said that ALL who believe in Him would have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and not everyone who is saved has water baptism.

Should we do what is pleasing to God? Yes, we should, and that is exactly the point - water baptism is an act of obedience following salvation, because we cannot please the father while we are yet un-saved.

Rom 8:7-10
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
NKJV

You must first be saved for your acts to please God. You cannot be saved through works of obedience.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV


So if you are trying to please God through water baptism and are unsaved, it is futile. You must first be saved, receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and then you can please God with the act of obedience through water baptism.

So if it is of water, and since Ephesians says that there is one essential baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit becomes non-essential. Is that what you are telling me?

Yet, Jesus said that ALL who believe in Him would have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and not everyone who is saved has water baptism.

Should we do what is pleasing to God? Yes, we should, and that is exactly the point - water baptism is an act of obedience following salvation, because we cannot please the father while we are yet un-saved.



Perhaps this will answer your question: Who actually or what actually baptizes?

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

God is in Control

Open up the heart of love for everyone and never call anyone unclean or common that God has cleaned. HIS Choice.. HIS Way...

For God is in Control...

Matthew 28:18-19-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy GhostTeaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

I am not discussing your denominational distinctives. I am discussing scripture.

No you're not. You are comparing your interpretation of Scripture with the Church's explanation as I understand it.


First, you already agreed on these points, so now you are backtracking.

I agreed on some points. I highlighted that with which we don't agree.


Second, are you saying that scripture DOES contradict itself?

No. I was clear to say that I believe you contradict Scripture. Scripture does not contradict itself.


And your last point is circular reasoning.

If anything it is you who is being circular in your reasoning. You say that you are correct because you say so. Whereas I provide Catholic Teaching, logic and am prepared to provide historical record on any question.


No, scripture does. I just quoted it.

You quoted Scripture and then proceeded to misinterpret it.


Then are you denying those scriptures that tell us that it is the blood of Jesus that washes our sins?

No. I am showing you that those Scriptures are speaking metaphorically.


Then are you saying that scripture lied about our sins being washed by His blood?

Speaking metaphorically is not lying. It is speaking in signs and symbols. Showing us in poetic terminology what the Spirit has done for our souls.


You do know that Heb 9:22 says that without blood there is no remission of sins, don't you?

Yes. Jesus shed His blood on the Cross. Are you recrucifying Jesus every time someone is baptized?


I've missed your denominational boat, and for that I am grateful to my Saviour. My eternity is in His hands, not your denominational teachings.

The teachings of Jesus Christ are learned in the Catholic Church. It is she who provides and has provided His Word to all generations.

Perhaps this will answer your question: Who actually or what actually baptizes?

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Very good point. The water baptizes in terms of washing away the dirt from the flesh. But the Spirit Baptizes in terms of washing away sin from the soul.

What God has joined together let no man tear asunder. God has joined the water and the spirit as a requirement to be born again. Why should we then, tear asunder what God has joined together:

Acts 11:17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Perhaps this will answer your question: Who actually or what actually baptizes?

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

So it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That means that water baptism is not essential for salvation.

No you're not. You are comparing your interpretation of Scripture with the Church's explanation as I understand it.

No I am comparing your denominations's teaching with scripture, and scripture is the standard.



I agreed on some points. I highlighted that with which we don't agree.

You agreed on the points that I posted.


Whereas I provide Catholic Teaching, logic and am prepared to provide historical record on any question.

Like I said, I am not interested in denominational private interpretation.


Speaking metaphorically is not lying. It is speaking in signs and symbols. Showing us in poetic terminology what the Spirit has done for our souls.

Ah, I see. You are saying that the blood on the cross did not pay the price for our sins, that it was metaphorical.


Yes. Jesus shed His blood on the Cross. Are you recrucifying Jesus every time someone is baptized?

No need - that is why there is no need to re-sacrifice Jesus daily at Mass.

Heb 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

No I am comparing your denominations's teaching with scripture, and scripture is the standard.

Catholic’s have pointed to numerous verses that the Church is the Authority named in Scripture. Where in Scriptures does it state that it claims Authority unto itself? Or where in Scripture does it state that the Scriptures are to be in accordance with Tj3’s standard?


JoeT

No I am comparing your denominations's teaching with scripture, and scripture is the standard.

And I am comparing your interpretation to Scripture and your interpretation is in false.


You agreed on the points that I posted.

Two. Whereas you didn't post the regeneration and renewal by the washing of the Spirit.


Like I said, I am not interested in denominational private interpretation.

Yours is the private interpretation.


Ah, I see. You are saying that the blood on the cross did not pay the price for our sins, that it was metaphorical.

No, the Blood on the Cross did pay the price. But it did not wash our sins. The washing of the blood is metaphorical.


No need - that is why there is no need to re-sacrifice Jesus daily at Mass.

We don't. In the Mass we remember and make present the self same sacrifice of Jesus.


Heb 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

Exactly. Once for all.

Trying to change the subject?

Catholic’s have pointed to numerous verses that the Church is the Authority named in Scripture.

"The Church" in scripture is not a denomination, not yours, not any.

If you want to start yet another thread on this topic, go ahead.

"The Church" in scripture is not a denomination, not yours, not any.

If you want to start yet another thread on this topic, go ahead.

You're the one that made the statement, "scripture is the standard." Show where in the Scriptures it claims to be the Authority unto itself. Otherwise your words are empty of meaning.


JoeT

And I am comparing your interpretation to Scripture and your interpretation is in false.

Since I am quoting scripture, you must be saying scripture is false. I disagree.


Two. Whereas you didn't post the regeneration and renewal by the washing of the Spirit.

Backtracking again, I see. I guess that you realized that agreeing with what scripture said causes irreconcilable differences with your private interpretation / doctrine.


Yours is the private interpretation.

Nice distraction from what scripture says. But it will not work for those who are alert and astute.


No, the Blood on the Cross did pay the price. But it did not wash our sins.

Really. Then you disagree with God's word:

Heb 13:20-22
20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

1 Peter 1:17-19
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
NKJV

1 John 1:7-8
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

Rev 1:5
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
NKJV

And there are many others. When you pit your interpretation against the clear and explicit word of God, your interpretation loses.


In the Mass we remember and make present the self same sacrifice of Jesus.

Heh heh - well that is a debate for another day and another thread.

You're the one that made the statement, "scripture is the standard." Show where in the Scriptures it claims to be the Authority unto itself. Otherwise your words are empty of meaning.

Start another thread. I don't care what you think of my beliefs - what matters to me is God's word.

If you want to discuss, start a thread.

Start another thread. I don't care what you think of my beliefs - what matters to me is God's word.

If you want to discuss, start a thread.

I sure do. Thread is started here:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/scripture-standard-338216.html#post1648122

Since I am quoting scripture, you must be saying scripture is false. I disagree.

You aren't just quoting. You quote and then give your interpretation of the quoted text. The quoted Scripture is correct. Your interpretation of that Scripture is false.


Backtracking again, I see. I guess that you realized that agreeing with what scripture said causes irreconcilable differences with your private interpretation / doctrine.

Not back tracking. Explaining and correcting that which you have misunderstood.


Nice distraction from what scripture says. But it will not work for those who are alert and astute.

I have no idea to what you refer.


Really. Then you disagree with God's word:

I agree with God's word and disagree with you.


Heb 13:20-22
20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

1 Peter 1:17-19
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
NKJV

1 John 1:7-8
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

Rev 1:5
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
NKJV

Again, the references to washing in blood are metaphorical.

This is literal. Christ shed blood on the Cross to pay for our sins.
This is literal. That we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood.
This is metaphorical. That we are washed in Christ's blood. But it points to the fact, that by the blood of Christ which we drink at the altar of His Sacrifice, we are cleansed of sin.

We will not nor have we been washed in a tub of Christ's blood.


And there are many others. When you pit your interpretation against the clear and explicit word of God, your interpretation loses.

No. When people compare your interpretation to the Church's interpretation, you lose.


Heh heh - well that is a debate for another day and another thread.

Here it is:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/significance-mass-338220.html#post1648150

You aren't just quoting. You quote and then give your interpretation of the quoted text. The quoted Scripture is correct. Your interpretation of that Scripture is false.

No interpretation. I take it at what it says. You tell me that it doesn't mean what it says.



Not back tracking.


I have no idea to what you refer.

I guess that you don't want to admit it, so call it what it will.


I agree with God's word and disagree with you.

You agree with your alteration of God's word. God's word says that the blood washes away sin. You say that it does not mean blood, it means water.



Again, the references to washing in blood are metaphorical.

So you keep saying, but you are not the standard that I go by with respect to doctrine. God's word is, so if you want me to believe you, telling me your private interpretation isn't going to do it.



This is literal. Christ shed blood on the Cross to pay for our sins.

But you say that it doesn't wash away our sins. You are contradicting yourself.



This is literal. That we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood.

Jesus explicitly stated that the wine and bread are only symbolic.



We will not nor have we been washed in a tub of Christ's blood.

Do you think that the washing of sins is something that takes place physically? Maybe that is why you think water will wash sins. But sins are not physical. The sins were washed by His blood shed on the cross.

Water won't do it - again scripture is explicit on that point also.


No. When people compare your interpretation to the Church's interpretation, you lose.

That is fine. Anyone who places the private interpretation of their denomination above scripture is likely to come to that conclusion. That does not bother me.

No interpretation. I take it at what it says. You tell me that it doesn't mean what it says.

I'm telling you it doesn't mean what you say.


I guess that you don't want to admit it, so call it what it will.

You agree with your alteration of God's word. God's word says that the blood washes away sin. You say that it does not mean blood, it means water.

I say that the Word of God is using metaphor to illustrate that our sin is removed from our soul.


So you keep saying, but you are not the standard that I go by with respect to doctrine. God's word is, so if you want me to believe you, telling me your private interpretation isn't going to do it.

Neither do your private interpretations convince me.


But you say that it doesn't wash away our sins. You are contradicting yourself.

No I'm not. I know when the word of God is speaking figuratively and when it isn't. And I know when I'm speaking figuratively and when I'm not.

Therefore, we are washed of sin by the Blood of Christ metaphorically. Neither you nor anyone else has collected a bucket of blood in which to scrub anyone down.

But this metaphor illustrates that by shedding His Blood on the Cross, we were healed. By His stripes, we were healed.


Jesus explicitly stated that the wine and bread are only symbolic.

On the contrary, He explicitly that they were real food and real drink:

John 6:55
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.


Do you think that the washing of sins is something that takes place physically? Maybe that is why you think water will wash sins. But sins are not physical. The sins were washed by His blood shed on the cross.

Blood is physical. Jesus shed actual blood.

Neither water nor blood wash sins. Water signifies the Spiritual washing of the soul. So does the metaphor of blood which is a liquid.

The shedding of blood signifies that Jesus gave His life. And Jesus gave His life to pay for ours.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


Water won't do it - again scripture is explicit on that point also.

True. But since water is used to wash bodies, food, clothes, dishes, animals, and just about everything known to man, the pouring of water over a person or the immersing of a person into water is a very effective sign representing the washing of regeneration in the person's soul.

And since water kills by drowning, water is an apt sign of the death of the sinful man.

And since water is released when a child is born, water is also a very effective sign representing the new birth of the Christian in the Body of Christ.

And since water is essential for life, water is an apt sign of the man rising to new life.

Water is the visible sign of the invisible result which the Soul is producing in the regeneration and renewal of the spirit in man.


That is fine. Anyone who places the private interpretation of their denomination above scripture is likely to come to that conclusion. That does not bother me.

It is you who puts your private interpretation over Scripture. Scripture does not say what you claim that Scripture says. And we will prove that in the Scripture as standard thread.

I'm telling you it doesn't mean what you say.

And I say that it means what it says. So you are saying that it does not mean what it says.


I say that the Word of God is using metaphor to illustrate that our sin is removed from our soul.

Keep repeating your private interpretation enough and maybe you'll eventually convince yourself that is in scripture. But you won't convince me because I can read what it says.


No I'm not. I know when the word of God is speaking figuratively and when it isn't. And I know when I'm speaking figuratively and when I'm not.

You said that it was the water that washes away our sins not the blood. You are not being consistent.


Neither you nor anyone else has collected a bucket of blood in which to scrub anyone down.

I see where you are getting off-track. You think sins are a physical thing which can be washed away physically. They are not. Sin is a spiritual issue. That is why (or more properly, one reason why)water will not work


On the contrary, He explicitly that they were real food and real drink:

John 6:55
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Again, something for another thread, but if you read further, you'll see that He says that those who held to that belief betrayed Him.


Neither water nor blood wash sins.

You are half right. Water doesn't. Scripture is explicit that Jesus' blood does.

And I say that it means what it says.

I know that Scripture means what it says. But you don't know what Scripture means.


So you are saying that it does not mean what it says.

I am saying that your interpretations do not agree with what Scripture says.


Keep repeating your private interpretation enough and maybe you'll eventually convince yourself that is in scripture. But you won't convince me because I can read what it says.

But apparently you can't understand what it says.


You said that it was the water that washes away our sins not the blood. You are not being consistent.

Did I? Show me.


I see where you are getting off-track. You think sins are a physical thing which can be washed away physically. They are not. Sin is a spiritual issue. That is why (or more properly, one reason why)water will not work

It is you who are getting off track as you seem to not be able to distinguish between the actual and the symbolic.


Again, something for another thread, but if you read further, you'll see that He says that those who held to that belief betrayed Him.

No. He says that those who would not believe Him betrayed Him.

John 6
36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.


You are half right. Water doesn't. Scripture is explicit that Jesus' blood does.

Scripture is speaking metaphorically in both cases.

It is obvious that this issue is just the same as always, people do not see the same verse the same way.

Each knows they are right,

Thread ended