I've seen a lot of threads started lately about Christianity, what makes a Christian, I'd like to discuss this.

As most of you know I'm a Deist, I was raised Lutheran, attended a Catholic school for 10 years and then decided that organized religion was not for me. I do not completely fit the definition of a Deist, but it's the closest definition of my beliefs.

Here's what I found out about Christianity on Wikipedia.

Active Christians: Committed to attending church, Bible reading, and sharing their faith that salvation comes through Jesus Christ.

Professing Christians: Also committed to "accepting Christ as Savior and Lord" as the key to being a Christian, but focus on personal relationships with God and Jesus more than on church, Bible reading or sharing faith.

Liturgical Christians: High level of spiritual activity, mainly expressed by attending and recognising the authority of the church, and by serving in it or in the community.

Private Christians: Believe in God and in doing good things, but not within a church context. In the American survey, this was the largest and youngest segment.

Cultural Christians: Do not view Jesus as essential to salvation. They are the least likely to align their beliefs or practices with biblical teachings, or attend church. They favor a universal theology that sees many ways to God.

An alternate view is that a Christian is simply someone who is a member of the Christian Church. For Catholics, especially, the Church is a Teacher and Mother (see Mater et Magistra, by John XXIII), something that Protestants do not typically identify with. From this perspective, every person who faithfully receives his teaching from the Christian Church is called a Christian.

So, what are you? How do you define Christianity? I'm a Deist, can I also be a Christian? According to Wiki I'm a Professing Christian.

What are your thoughts?

You know , I have asked myself that very same question for years. I do not believe in organized religion. I have asked for years why I had to go to a church to worship god or jesus christ. I can pray and read the bible and ask god for forgiveness from the privacy of my own home. I was raised by a family of devout catholics. When I was old enough to make a decision on what I wanted to do with my life I tried several different kinds of churches. Baptist,protestant,lutheran,apostolic,non-denominational churches of christ. You name it I tried it. I know what I believe in my heart after researching and reading and coming to my own conclusions as an adult. There is a god and higher power, we will have to all answer to him one day. But I do not have to go into a house of worship or ask for his forgiveness. He alresdy knows I am asking forgiveness. If he created me then he knows all that I am thinking and feeling in my heart and soul

I can only speak from a personal standpoint.I am clearly not a religious scholar.
I was raised Catholic (strict) but do not currently attend church.I believe Jesus Christ is my savior.
I try to adhere to the principals of Christianity by treating my brother as myself.
Labels try to pigeon hole people.I am a little this and a little that.
I think I agree with Ziggy Marley on the subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heUVrcYWqOc
I know you are a warm compassionate person and I think that's all that really matters.
Sorry if I did not answer your question but its all I got. :)

you know , i have asked myself that very same question for years. i do not believe in organized religion. i have asked for years why i had to go to a church to worship god or jesus christ. i can pray and read the bible and ask god for forgiveness from the privacy of my own home. i was raised by a family of devout catholics. when i was old enough to make a decision on what i wanted to do with my life i tried several different kinds of churches. baptist,protestant,lutheran,apostolic,non-denominational churches of christ. you name it i tried it. i know what i believe in my heart after researching and reading and coming to my own conclusions as an adult. there is a god and higher power, we will have to all answer to him one day. but i do not have to go into a house of worship or ask for his forgiveness. he alresdy knows i am asking forgiveness. if he created me then he knows all that i am thinking and feeling in my heart and soul

That's exactly how I feel, 100%.

I've done the whole church thing, organized religion, bible study, and never got the answers I was looking for, but somehow I still formed a relationship with God. I don't feel the need to go to a marble floored, oak benched institution to hear one mans interpretation of a man written book (The Bible) in order to have a relationship with God. He knows my heart, I don't have to go to a specific building for him to hear me.

I went the whole nine yards as a Lutheran. I was baptised as a baby, did 2 years of bible study and was confirmed in the Lutheran religion at the age of 14. I attended Catholic school for 10 years and never got the answers to my many questions. Because I dared to ask the questions, I was shunned, ostrasized, made to feel like less then a human being. The longer I was there, the more questions I had, the more I distanced myself from Church and the bible. I'm happy with my faith.

My concern is the inability for others to accept eachothers beliefs. Even though I don't wish to be Catholic, I have no problem with those that choose that belief, or any other for that matter, but they will not acknowledge my beliefs, even though they aren't very different from theirs.

Does being a Christian mean looking down on those that aren't? If so, how can you be sure that you are indeed a Chrsitian? According to Wikipedia, I am, but ask 100 people and the majority will say that I'm not. Heck, even I say "I used to be a Christian" because I believed that being a Christian meant going to church and studying the bible. If that's true, then is that all it takes to be a Christian, or is there more?

Does being a Christian mean looking down on those that aren't? I
Not in my book.I see that as hypocrisy ,which I abhor and that is not Christian or God like or good in any way.
Tolerance and love and acceptance is what my Lord tells me.
That is why I avoid the religion board,no tolerance.

Hi, Altenweg!

I'm an active Christian who has been involved in many types of Christian denominations. Have been doing the music in various churches for over 36 years, so I have had a variety of influences - spiritually, intellectually, morally, liturgically, etc.

I was even employed by a Unitarian Universalist church for eight years as the custodian. Became very involved with the particular church and was influenced by their teachings and beliefs. Made a lot of friends there.

Thanks!

According to the definitions, I'm a cultural Christian. Eew, okay. The word Christian makes me think of the religion board, little tolerance, plenty of dogma. In fact, they discourage many of us from joining their discussions, because we disagree with them.

If I believe that there are as many ways to God as there are people, what "Christian" could accept that?

According to the Bible, it is a person who has received Jesus (The true Jesus found in the Bible) as their Lord and Saviour and thus has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

In fact, they discourage many of us from joining their discussions, because we disagree with them.
That is so true because it seems to be so intolerant of so many many people and the Lord I love would never do that.
Its like the right to lifer who blows up an abortion clinic because he is pro life,killing people who disagree. Fanaticism is a plight,it stops love and acceptance and is never within any goal to help mankind.
It is a total degradation of the word.The word is love.

According to the definitions, I'm a cultural Christian. Eew, okay. The word Christian makes me think of the religion board, little tolerance, plenty of dogma. In fact, they discourage many of us from joining their discussions, because we disagree with them.

If I believe that there are as many ways to God as there are people, what "Christian" could accept that?

I agree Simone. I accept your way, and according to Wiki we're both Christians, just different types. :)

Since most of us are discouraged from joining the conversation in the religious boards, I think this is the perfect place for us to be allowed to discuss our beliefs, our experiences, our relationship with God or lack thereof.

I agree Simone. I accept your way, and according to Wiki we're both Christians, just different types. :)

Since most of us are discouraged from joining the conversation in the religious boards, I think this is the perfect place for us to be allowed to discuss our beliefs, our experiences, our relationship with God or lack thereof.

You guys are always welcome on any thread that I start! And artlady too. I always enjoy reading your posts.

As for the OP: I think I'm going to take a rather different tack. Alty, one of the things I very much like about your original question is that you bring out the fact that there isn't necessarily one simple answer to the question. And I think it's a good thing that there isn't, because--and this is something that may bug some people (sorry)--I think like many things in life that are meaningful and worthwhile, it is complicated.

Marriage and relationships, friendship, being a parent and a child, family, work... These are all very important parts of our lives that are notoriously messy and complicated in all sorts of ways. One of the reasons for the messiness and complication is, as I see it, the fact that each of these calls on much of what we are as persons; they aren't one-dimensional realities in our lives. And they are important, even though they often breed confusion and pain as well as joy and fulfillment. I think it is much the same, on all counts, with religion.

I think there is a tendency for many, perhaps even all, of us to crave in religion a simplicity that is often absent from these other areas of our lives. Of course, this makes all the sense the world. In fact, it's hard for me to imagine anyone never having craved greater simplicity in his or her marriage, familiy relationships, and work life. But that's just not how these things work. They are as meaningful as they are because so much of who we are is implicated in them. Were that not the case, they wouldn't mean as much to us. And I think this is how it is with religion as well.

When we are married to another person, we aren't just married with our minds: We are married with our bodies as, we participate in shared rituals and practices of all sorts, we have to work hard to get better at it. And there are all sorts of rules, of course. A marriage without rules is a marriage that is destined for divorce and, more likely than not, a fair amount of acrimony. I think religion is the same: We don't exist as disembodied minds, and so our religiosity (if I can call it that) isn't something that we do just in our heads: We live it and act it out both by striving to be good people (hopefully!) and by participating in shared rituals that connect us to other people alongside us, to those who have come before us and who will come after, and ultimately even to ourselves. There are rules because rules give structure and meaning to all aspects of our life. If you doubt that, just try communicating sometime without using any rules (linguistic or otherwise). Rules aren't just cages; they are necessary for liberation to be so much as possible. (Of course, this doesn't mean that ALL rules are good things. I don't mean to suggest that.) I guess what I'm trying to get at is the idea that religion is a complex reality and, like all complex realities, it opens the door to depth and meaning and beauty and transformation. But it also makes demands on us, it requires something of us. And it should. Whatever our religion, it should be important enough that we are prepared to work hard at it.

Now the last thing I want to do is to make anyone feel that I am trying to talk them into or out of anything. Truly, that is last thing I want to do. And this is just one of the reasons I am speaking in very general terms about this. I just wanted to try to offer perhaps a somewhat different perspective on the question. Whether you find yourself in agreement or disagreement with me I do hope that this at least makes sense--that I've expressed myself in a way that's intelligible.

I am not going to put myself into any one category above, and I will not conform to one persons' view on how I should worship, pray, or view God and The Lord Jesus.

I do agree with all but one of the answers thus far, and I'm sure I will be disagreed by this person no matter what it is I have to say.

I find it quite amazing when going to the Christianity boards, and see all of the bashing of a fellow human being, coming from the liturgical or right winged Christians. The venom that is spewed at others is a sin within itself. Does God hear you speak with that mouth? That would be something to ponder, wouldn't it?

I'm also appalled to see that some members who call themselves Christians, quote verses and chapters in the Bible, to take down someone else's beliefs, and yet a few pages later break those same verses, because they can interperate them differently depending on the discussion at hand. I find this to be very hypocritical and careless.

I believe in an all loving and forgiving God. Not a hateful God. The fire and brimstone speech falls on deaf ears with me. I don't believe in the conformity of the church, and the "people" who run it! We've all seen how man uses his "power" to control and brainwash people with threats of punishment from God.

To me, God is Love, and Love is God. I will not seek out organized religion to get this. "People" will not tell me what my God means to me.

If that is not okay with you? Well frankly, I don't care. Just don't shove your beliefs down my throat, because I will spit them out!

To me this whole thread sounds like peoples excused for not embracing organized religion. Does not matter what brand it is. The reason people attend church with others of a like mind is to praise God, hear the word of God and to encourage others in the faith. Those that choose to not go to church are missing an important part of the Christian faith, fellowship with other like minded people, and are generally doomed to failure.
I am not meaning this to be condemning or mean spirited. I intend my comments to answer the OP's question.

Yes, too many want to have their own opinion of worship, we see a major part of the NT having Paul instructing the church on corrections of behavior. And the early church risk death to gather together.

Today's soceity and its freedoms cause too many to want do things there way instead of gathering within a group

To me this whole thread sounds like peoples excused for not embracing organized religion. Does not matter what brand it is. The reason people attend church with others of a like mind is to praise God, hear the word of God and to encourage others in the faith. Those that choose to not go to church are missing an important part of the Christian faith, fellowship with other like minded people, and are generally doomed to failure.
I am not meaning this to be condemning or mean spirited. I intend my comments to answer the OP's question.

I understand what you are saying, but I have to disagree.

Going to church to gather with people that have the same faith as me is not something I need in order to continue my faith. I don't need someone there to make sure that I don't stray from the pack.

I used to go to church, when I was younger we had a great pastor, I still talk to him to this day, he was forced to leave our church because he wouldn't do things the way the higher ups wanted him to do them. You see, he believed in a community of people gathering together, talking not only about the bible and it's role in faith but also about other important subjects that we tend to overlook. He now preaches at a church downtown, a 1 hour drive from my house, both my parents funerals where at that church.

If he hadn't left that church I'd probably still be going, but his replacement was a very poor substitute, a man that preaches hell, fire and brimstone, the punishment of God if you don't conform. That's not the God I believe in. I was married in that church, my son was bapitzed in that church and that was the last time I stepped foot in it.

My old pastor never chastised me when I questioned things, he was always willing to sit, listen, talk about my questions. He was still the pastor when I went to confirmation school. In the Lutheran religion you are required to take 2 years of religious study before being confirmed. So, every Wednesday for 2 years I went to the church for these studies. Pastor Wilhelm made it fun, made it interesting. It wasn't just a bunch of pre-teens sitting around reading the bible, learning the bible, it was more than just religion that he taught. One particular "class" that I will never forget, our Pastor brought in an ex convict, he'd spent 12 years in and out of prison for breaking and entering. He came to talk to us about the path he'd taken in life, the hardships of being in prison, the new path he'd decided to take. He also admitted that he would never be a church going person, it just wasn't for him, but he had discovered a relationship with God while in prison, and it changed who and what he was forever.

I'm not saying that organized religion is bad, but it's not for everyone. I don't understand the extreme need that church going people have to bring you into the flock. I believe in God, I pray to God, God is a part of my life, why isn't that enough for some people? Is having me in a pew at your church really that important? What do you get if convince me to join, a toaster? A guaranteed seat in heaven? What?

If those in the group, attending church and thereby strengthening their avoidance of worldly temptation are happy doing that, great.

That does not mean that those who do not are lost or failures. Wanting to be a success is human nature. Following a system that teaches that those who do not follow it are failures negates the whole principle of freedom of religion. It teaches fear of failure. Structured Christianity, even if it is "The" truth for many, refuses to accept other truths.

So, if someone does not believe that some are born gay, that it is simply a worldly temptation to be avoided, they are right and all other opinions are not True. Bible scripture can be quoted to support this... That is not love and acceptance, a quotation is only words. Love, even faith can not always be put into words, sometimes it just is, like a connection with Deity.

I don't need someone there to make sure that I don't stray from the pack.
My experience has always been that members encourage each other, do fund raising together (especially if a parochial school is attached), and worship together (nothing more uplifting than joyously singing a favorite hymn accompanied by a pipe organ and along with 200+ other like-minded people). And yes, there are people there I don't like much or get along with, but the same situation is at work and at family get-togethers and even inside my own house. It's what I make of it then that counts, and what part I have in keeping my cool or even mending a relationship.


I used to go to church, when I was younger we had a great pastor... his replacement was a very poor substitute, a man that preaches hell, fire and brimstone, the punishment of God if you don't conform. That's not the God I believe in.
The same thing happened to me. The church I was married in and that my kids were baptized in lost my all-time favorite pastor to retirement and called a new pastor who thought about everything 180 degrees differently. Since the denomination as a whole was going through changes that I felt denigrated women and gays, I left with great sadness. I had been on the committee to allow women to vote at church meetings and had seen women gradually take on roles and duties formerly held only by men, so the new thinking that women are to be subservient to men was quite upsetting and maddening.


I'm not saying that organized religion is bad, but it's not for everyone.
Yet it did work for you for a long time with a minister that you liked.


I don't understand the extreme need that church going people have to bring you into the flock. I believe in God, I pray to God, God is a part of my life, why isn't that enough for some people? Is having me in a pew at your church really that important? What do you get if convince me to join, a toaster? A guaranteed seat in heaven? What?
Now you're being kind of silly. A church is there for education and support on how to be a more loving and giving person. I taught Sunday School and adult Bible classes for years. All the preparation did more for me than my teaching did for my students. When I thought I knew it all, gosh darn, I learned something new, either from my studies or from my students. And as a church member, I pulled together with the other members, staffing the church nursery, baking cookies for fund-raisers, being a den mother for the Scouts, worshipping and praying together as a church community who were there for each other through thick and thin. And yes, there were speed bumps and upsets. It wasn't perfect. Like in any relationship, it was what we did about the problems and how we managed to get along, with God's help, that made all the difference.

Like any organization, a church takes its cues from its leader(s). There are pushy churches and laid-back ones, churches that expect you to wear your best and ones that don't care if you show up in jeans and a t-shirt, churches whose members ignore visitors and church members who rush over to the visitor to give welcoming hugs.

No, one doesn't need to belong to an organized church in order to worship God, but there definitely are benefits.

Tj3 disagrees: All have sinned (ROm 3:23. No one is calling anyone failures. We all need salvation through Christ.

Tom, you certainly have a right to your opinion, as do others. Please read the site rules, disagrees are only for factually incorrect information, not for opinions. You've been here long enough that you should know this by now.

Tom, you certainly have a right to your opinion, as do others. Please read the site rules, disagrees are only for factually incorrect information, not for opinions. You've been here long enough that you should know this by now.

Alty, if you had read what I said, you would have seen that is exactly why it was given. Odd that you ignore others who do give reddies for opinion only. I hope that you will take that opportunity now to read what I wrote.

Tom, stop it! You cannot give a reddie for someone else's opinion, no matter what you believe. Neither Simone or myself stated anything that was factually incorrect, we stated our opinions. You can disagree, but not with a reddie. Those are the rules, everyone must abide by them, even you.

Enough! Back to the topic please.

Tom, stop it! You cannot give a reddie for someone else's opinion, no matter what you believe. Neither Simone or myself stated anything that was factually incorrect, we stated our opinions.

Alty, read again. That was the reason that it was given. This is the second time that it has been explained to you. Please read what was said.


You can disagree, but not with a reddie. Those are the rules, everyone must abide by them, even you.

And you - this thread is not the place for a discussion such as this.


Back to the topic please.

Yes, please.

Alty, read again. That was the reason that it was given. This is the second time that it has been explained to you. Please read what was said.



And you - this thread is not the place for a discussion such as this.

Who is it that gave you're the authority to delegate where this thread should be I ask?

According to the Bible, it is a person who has received Jesus (The true Jesus found in the Bible) as their Lord and Saviour and thus has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Tj3, is this what you meant? If someone does not believe that what is written in the Bible is their ultimate truth, then their disagreement with your opinion in the reputation area is accurate. Although the site rules do not specifically cover the fact that many do not take the Bible at face value. Whether a person believes it or not is just an opinion.

I suggest we ignore him and his ramblings unless he decides to play nice, abide by the rules of the site and have a civilized conversation about the topic.

Sadly it probably won't happen, it would be a first for Tom. Even though he clearly went against site rules, he won't listen to us, we're women, not religious, we're the enemy to him.

But I digress. Let's get back to the topic, despite Tom and his revenge reddies. :)

Alty, if you had read what I said, you would have seen that is exactly why it was given. Odd that you ignore others who do give reddies for opinion only. I hope that you will take that opportunity now to read what I wrote.
I read what you said. So if organized religion is wrong, then what?

Tj3, is this what you meant? If someone does not believe that what is written in the Bible is their ultimate truth, then their disagreement with your opinion in the reputation area is accurate. Although the site rules do not specifically cover the fact that many do not take the Bible at face value. Whether a person believes it or not is just an opinion.

Had to spread the rep, I agree Simone. Just because someone believes something doesn't make it fact or truth, it is still opinion.

Maybe we need to give an example so that Tom is clear on what is and isn't allowed.

If someone says : The gestation period for a human being is 6 months, then you can give a reddie, that information is factually incorrect, not a belief or an opinion.

If someone says: I think that blondes are sexier then red heads, you cannot give a disagree even if you personally believe that red heads are sexier. This is an opinion, not factually incorrect.

Do you understand Tom?

Who is it that gave your the authority to delegate where this thread should be I ask?

The same authority that you have to deviate from the thread to discuss this.

I read what you said. So if organized religion is wrong, then what?

I would not say that all organized religion is wrong.

I would not say that all organized religion is wrong.
Then which ones are right?

The same authority that you have to deviate from the thread to discuss this.

So you are telling me, that this is all right for you to do and not me?---says the one with over 2000 posts and his original greenie square. I was answering a question in response to your reply. I'm not here to argue, only to point out that people have their opinions, and I don't see where you have the right to tell people under what forum they are allowed to post their questions. I am no longer going to involve myself in a conversation that it seems someone is on another bashing mission. Again, the reason I don't belong to a church or any organized religion. This is the reason that so many people will not take part. Congrats! You've just reaffirmed my standing on this subject. You've kept one more person out of the church. God must be proud.

I agree Wondergirl, but there are also benefits to worshipping at home without outside influence.
For the past 24+ years I have worked in an increasingly culturally diverse community of immigrants -- Japanese, Chinese, Filipinos, Eastern Europeans, Greeks, Indians, Pakistani -- who profess different religions from the Christianity that used to be the norm. Because of many discussions with them, not only have I learned a lot but also have developed a great respect for the truths that surround their lives. When I was growing up in a white-bread world, our pastors would fill us in on what non-Christians from other countries believe. There was them with what they thought was truth, and there was us with the Real Truth. Now I'm not so sure. We all are closer with our truths than I could ever have imagined.

For the past 24+ years I have worked in an increasingly culturally diverse community of immigrants -- Japanese, Chinese, Filipinos, Eastern Europeans, Greeks, Indians, Pakistani -- who profess a different religion from the Christianity that used to be the norm. Because of many discussions with them, not only have I learned a lot but also have developed a great respect for the truths that surround their lives. When I was growing up in a hwite-brad world, our pastors would fill us in on what non-Christians from other countries believe. There was them with what they thought was truth, and there was us with the Real Truth. Now I'm not so sure. We all are closer with our truths than I could ever have imagined.

And that is the ultimate truth. :)

So you are telling me, that this is alright for you to do and not me?---says the one with over 2000 posts and his original greenie square. I was answering a question in reponse to your reply. I'm not here to argue, only to point out that people have their opinions, and I don't see where you have the right to tell people under what forum they are allowed to post their questions.

You can post where you please. But Alty decided to sidetrack by posting false accusations against me and deciding to discuss the rules on a thread about a completely different topic. That was my point.

Then which ones are right?

I hold that God alone is our standard of truth in doctrine. Others, be they organizations or individuals are right insofar as they are in alignment with God's word. I do not hold any organized religion to be a standard of right and wrong.

You can post where you please. But Alty decided to sidetrack by posting false accusations against me and deciding to discuss the rules on a thread about a completely different topic. That was my point.
Give it up, Tom, and answer my question please.

Give it up, Tom, and answer my question please.

Answer what question? BTW, I was answering a different question in this response, in case you did not notice.

Answer what question? BTW, I was answering a different question in this response, in case you did not notice.
No, you weren't. You were winding up for another mud-slinging contest. There is no other question directed to you besides mine in post #29.

I hold that God alone is our standard of truth in doctrine. Others, be they organizations or individuals are right insofar as they are in alignment with God's word. I do not hold any organized religion to be a standard of right and wrong.
Who then determines that they are in alignment with God's Word?

***ADDED: The Baptists believe they are in alignment, as do the Lutherans, the Catholics, the Greek Orthodox, the Mormons, the JWs...

No, you weren't. You were winding up for another mud-slinging contest.

No just dealing with the mud-slinging started by Alty and aided and abetted by others. Hopefully they have it out of their system now.


There is no other question directed to you besides mine in post #29.

You mean the one that I answered in post #34.

No just dealing with the mud-slinging started by Alty and aided and abetted by others. Hopefully they have it out of their system now.
So you, good Christian that you profess to be, reach down and scoop up a handful of mud to fling right back? Good advertising!


You mean the one that answered in post #34.
You had the audacity to go back and look for it and then post while I posted with the information.

You mean the one that I answered in post #34.
Now please move forward to #38.

So you, good Christian that you profess to be, reach down and scoop up a handful of mud to fling right back? Good advertising!

I scooped no mud. I was merely defending myself. But I note that you want to keep it going with a little mud of your own.

I never understood why people see the need to move off the topic to the person when someone disagrees.


You had the audacity to go back and look for it and then post while I posted with the information.

Huh?? Somehow going back to find the post # is a crime??

Huh??? Somehow going back to find the post # is a crime????
I was being helpful. You always (always!! ) ask the other person to go back to say what and where the question was.

#38 please?

Tom, Tom, Tom, aren't you getting tired of this, I know I am, as are others. Please, just answer the question already and stop sidetracking by posting the usual "false accusations, hijacking, blah, blah, blah" spiel that you always post when you don't have an answer.

Come on Tom, you claim to have a point, so post it.

As for slinging mud, aren't you, a Christian, supposed to turn the other cheek?

Tom, Tom, Tom, aren't you getting tired of this, I know I am, as are others. Please, just answer the question already and stop sidetracking by posting the usual "false accusations, hijacking, blah, blah, blah" spiel that you always post when you don't have an answer.

Come on Tom, you claim to have a point, so post it.

As for slinging mud, aren't you, a Christian, supposed to turn the other cheek?

Come on Alty, as I remember it, the mud was coming from you. Why don't you just get back on topic?

I was being helpful. You always (always!!!) ask the other person to go back to say what and where the question was.

As did I when I told you where my answer was. So why was my helpfulness a crime?

Come on Alty, as I remember it, the mud was coming from you. Why don't you just get back on topic?
Here's your chance -- post 38.

#38 please?

Didn't see #38 before - probably because of all the mud flying in between.

The answer is that simply because someone believes something does not make it true. There are many people who are sincere, but can be sincerely wrong. Some groups add to what the Bible says, others subtract from it, some simply bend scripture to their own interpretation. Scripture says that we are not to interpret it.

Even amongst denominations that are sound, it is important to understand what the leadership of individual churches teach, because they may differ on important areas. Other differences are not on the essentials of the gospel but on other matters, which should not be a matter for division.

Didn't see #38 before - probably because of all the mud flying in between.

The answer is that simply because someone believes something does not make it true. There are many people who are sincere, but can be sincerely wrong. Some groups add to what the Bible says, others substract from it, some simply bend scripture to their own interpretation. Scripture says that we are not to interpret it.

Even amongst denominations that are sound, it is important to understand what the leadership of individual churches teach, because they may differ on important areas. Other differences are not on the essentials of the gospel but on other matters, which should not be a matter for division.
So there's no hope to find the "right" church. Or is there such a thing? If so, which one(s)?

So there's no hope to find the "right" church. Or is there such a thing? If so, which one(s)?

A perfect one? No, it does not exist because perfect people don't exist.

Good churches? Yes they do exist.

So there's no hope to find the "right" church. Or is there such a thing? If so, which one(s)?

This is also what I would like Tom to clarify for us! Please do Tom!

This is also what I would like Tom to clarify for us! Please do Tom!

I did - see my last post.

The answer is that simply because someone believes something does not make it true

Exactly, so it is just belief, not fact. Thank you for finally confirming that.


There are many people who are sincere, but can be sincerely wrong. Some groups add to what the Bible says, others subtract from it, some simply bend scripture to their own interpretation.

Again, so true. That is my experience with everyone I've ever met. Of course there is no way to avoid that, everyone who reads a book interprets it differently, therein lies the problem. One persons interpretation is not anothers, so where is the truth?

This is the problem I have with organized relgion, one mans interpretation of the bible. Who's to say that one person is right, the other wrong? No one has that right.

Again, so true. That is my experience with everyone I've ever met. Of course there is no way to avoid that, everyone who reads a book interprets it differently, therein lies the problem. One persons interpretation is not anothers, so where is the truth?

You hit the nail on the head. Private interpretation. Something that the Bible warns against.

2 Peter 1:19-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

Any written work is interpreted by the mind reading it. In order to understand what is being said, personal interpretation must come into play. How can one not interpret the Bible?

Any written work is interpreted by the mind reading it. In order to understand what is being said, personal interpretation must come into play.

That is an assumption. If I said "The Sky is Blue" - explain to me how you interpret that?

Closed, lasted longer than I guess it would