Hello:

As you read your morning paper, you notice a complaint made by a prisoner about being punched by a cop while handcuffed. The cop denies it.

Who do you instinctively believe?

excon

Hello again,

Wassa matta? Fraid to answer?

excon

OK I'm game.
From the little information you have given I would assume the cop was telling the truth.

Id conclude the cop was telling the truth based on the information given

Knowing cops, and those they handcuff, I'd say there's a small but definite chance the prisoner was telling the truth. If the handcuffed guy was drunk or on drugs and acting stupid or squirrely that small chance gets bigger.

Some folks in handcuffs can make the most diciplined and honorable person want to slap them silly.

I know cops and I know people. Your instinct should tell you either situation is possible. Cops do punch folks, not all cops. Folks tell lies, not all folks . I try to not prejudge a person based solely on their career choice.

Hello again,

So, it's two who believe the cop, and two who MIGHT not.

I think the answers so far are telling, albeit a very small sampling.

Keep going.

excon

Excon, count again, I am a split vote. Either can be telling a lie.

Even handcuffed was the prisoner doing anything, let me see a handcuffed prisoner,
I have been
1. head butted
2. kicked
3. had them start beating their head against a light pole, the car, and even the side window to the point of busting it out.
4. spit on my

So I doubt we are getting a full story either way.

So I doubt we are getting a full story either way.Hello Padre:

It isn't about the story or about them at all. It's about YOU, and what you believe.

excon

Well on a whole criminals tend to be the least trustworthy of the two choices you have provided, so what were you really expecting?

I understand your logic albear but being under arrest doesn't make you a criminal, not yet.

I agree with Fr Chuck. I couldn't imagine going to work every day and have people that want to hurt me or shoot me and the scum they have to deal with. Its got to be one of the most stressful jobs there is.

If anyone has a reason to go postal I would pick a police officer. . How a officer doesn't get an attitude more amazes me.

Lets see one of us put up with some of society's worst and see how we react after a while. Officers are humans with a life and family's. I would tend to believe the officer.

The moral is if you were a good citizen then maybe you WON'T be in handcuffs. And if it was a benign thing I doubt the person handcuff would just lash out or the officer beat on him for a warrant for late tickets. They pretty much know if you are in the system and what for. It helps let them know how much danger they could be in

There is a cop in the op and a prisoner, prisoners are people who have committed crimes, hence criminal,
And yes I know our going to put forward the point that he could have been falsly imprisioned but that was not mentioned, hence the prisoner is a bad guy.

Lots of assumptions going on here. This guy in cuffs was arrested so he is a prisoner but he is not proven guilty yet. You would not believe the numbers of arrests compared to convictions. In my state you will be cuffed if you drive with a blood alcohol of over .08, that does make you a prisoner but you aren't guilty yet and are not considered a criminal.

well on a whole criminals tend to be the least trustworthy of the two choices you have provided, so what were you really expecting?Hello albear:

I was expecting what I got... You actually clinched it for me. I don't disagree with you at all either in your assessment. Criminals do TEND to be less trustworthy than the cops.

But, I'd rather live in a country where the suggestion that the cops brutalize people would be immediately attacked. I'd rather live where we wouldn't be talking about the cops TENDENCIES, but we'd be talking about what they DO because we KNOW it to be so.

That didn't happen here. As a matter of fact, HALF of you subscribed to my proposition, and the other half didn't think my suggestion was nuts.

I don't know what that says, if anything. But, YES, I think it says SOMETHING. What do YOU think it says?

excon

Fair do's, but that's an assumption that he isn't guilty, still prisoners as a whole tend to be untrusworthy people

Hello again:

This isn't about prisoners, or cops, or who deserves to be punched, or who's guilty.

It's about a cop and his handcuffed prisoner. Plus, it's about US as a country and what we demand (or not) of our protectors.

excon

Hello albear:

I was expecting what I got.... You actually clinched it for me. I don't disagree with you at all either in your assessment. Criminals do TEND to be less trustworthy than the cops.

But, I'd rather live in a country where the suggestion that the cops brutalize people would be immediately attacked. I'd rather live where we wouldn't be talking about the cops TENDENCIES, but we'd be talking about what they DO because we KNOW it to be so.

That didn't happen here. As a matter of fact, HALF of you subscribed to my proposition, and the other half didn't think my suggestion was nuts.

I dunno what that says, if anything. But, YES, I think it says SOMETHING. What do YOU think it says?

excon

Hooray for me clinching things

Same here on the country thing

I think it says something along the lines that people don't trust people as much as they used to, and that's not supprising at all.

[QUOTE=;]it's about US as a country and what we demand (or not) of our protectors./QUOTE]

I think we are turning into a police country because of how things are going. Its really about WHY this is happening. I'm sure we love to demand less violence. The bad dudes won't allow that. Sure nobody's perfect but why was there less officers need per capita before than now? We demanded for a long time safety and peace in our streets. To many people don't want to follow the BASIC rules in the U.S. And obviously don't respect our laws and the officers that enforce those laws. Yes there are some bad officers but by and large were doing better than most countries with straight honest cops.

were doing better than most countries with straight honest cops.

Reeeeeeeeeealy?

I don't believe or disbelieve people based on their profession - I know, a little too White Bread America for your taste.

I would also not believe or disbelieve if one party were a mechanic and the other a waitress.

If you are asking about my quasi-professional opinion - which party hired me?

I wouldn't instinctively take sides either. At one time, I would have believed the
Cop, having been one for over 20 years and retired. I know from personal
Experience and the experiences of a few other good cops that if you get
"on the wrong side" of either of the aforementioned, you'd probably be a
Lot safer being on the wrong side of the accused. The cops have so many
Ways of mustering a battallion of other supposedly ethical and forthright
Agencies against you if they're "pissed off" enough.

I know I can not count the times, I had someone in custody, often locked in the back of the car, they would beat their head against the screen or window and then claim I beat them on the way to the police station.

I had one where I had three suspects all handcuffed, going down a flight of stairs, the one in the back slipped and knocked the other two down the flight of steps, of course all three claimed I pushed them.

So yes, from years of personal experience I would opt to believe the officer first

Its really about WHY this is happening. I'm sure we love to demand less violence. The bad dudes won't allow that.


I wouldn't instinctively take sides either. you'd probably be a lot safer being on the wrong side of the accused. The cops have so many
ways of mustering a battallion of other supposedly ethical and forthright
agencies against you if they're "pissed off" enough.Hello again:

Couple things... I'm going to take the above votes as a YES, they believe the prisoner. Although the Padre talked about all the times when the CONVICT was lying, he didn't mention any times he knows about when the COP was lying...

I'll bet he knows of a few...

But, I'm not looking for tit for tat. It doesn't make it EVEN when a prisoner is assaulted because cops get assaulted by other prisoners. I believe we should expect BETTER.

Apparently, 21 agrees with me, but he says it's not the cops fault - because "the bad dudes won't allow it". I don't, of course, subscribe to that notion.

I appreciate Couch for saying what he did... My post, although it was about punching a prisoner, is really about retaliation. There is no doubt about what he's saying. Cops DO retaliate.

What's my point?? I don't know. How is it working for YOU, having your cops DO that?

excon

My post, although it was about punching a prisoner, is really about retaliation.

Retaliation as in hating the officer or suspect or a racial problem, or just against the repeated conditions in re-acting by an officer?

We are humans and at times we make rash decisions. Re -act instead of Act. It happens as kids and at home family/friends and at the work place. At times everyone becomes susceptible. I've worked in a prison and it was amazing when you talk with the prisoners how many supposedly are Innocent. I view the policemen job as a soldier in a war. There is always collateral damage in that environment. Yes there are innocent people at the wrong place at the wrong time. Same as a police officer could make a wrong decision on re acting and not acting. Personally I would believe more the law abiding citizen ( officer) than the suspect. We have the courts to figure out the rest. An officer is our first and last line of defense on the streets, other than the national guard. They are and should be held to a higher accountability for honesty and trust that we citizens ask and expect of him/her. If not then its back to the cave man old west days. Which may still happen at this rate.

I guess the equation here is how often police brutally happens and its all about percentiles of what's acceptable or not and at what level. In turn as I hear about police brutality when its made public. I would think its only fair to also put on the news the brutality the police officer deals with and goes through on a daily basis. The true Equal. Not what the liberal media chooses to edit and take out of context. At least the show "cops" shows how often a suspect cries brutality and after watching the chase to arrest all on tape form beginning to end, and see the suspect scream brutality after we saw none. The to watch them beat there heads against the car window to try and get a bruise to get BACK at the arresting officers speaks for itself.

They day we loose all faith in our police is the day we lose our cities and towns and the U.S. Back to the dark ages.

21Boat - I guess you figured out that everyone in prison/jail is innocent. Yep.
Being a cop is not easy. Being a criminal is.

Excon - He got punched as he deserved it.

My question - Did they have it on video?

Yep is amazing how we spent all that money to build a jail for all those Innocent people. It seems to go along with, how many prisoners say " I found Jesus" I didn't know He was lost.
Or I was drunk when it happened or drug ed and its not my fault. I have yet to see someone force a person to drink alcohol or take the drug. It's the people that makes the drugs fault that put me in jail. The classic is. "I din't do nothin" , and its all on tape. And then its "Thats not me"

Yep is amazing how we spent all that money to build a jail for all those Innocent people. it seems to go along with, how many prisoners say " I found Jesus" I didn't know He was lost.
Or I was drunk when it happened or drug ed and its not my fault. I have yet to see someone force a person to drink alcohol or take the drug. Its the people that makes the drugs fault that put me in jail. The classic is. "I din't do nothin" , and its all on tape. And then its "Thats not me"


I'm an investigator and I hear the same thing all the time. "I didn't do it and if I did, I had good reason."

excon agrees: Why does this not surprise me, twink?

Ex - I like to surprise you! It's too much fun.

Well, was there a video tape of this guy punching himself in handcuffs?

Hello:

As you read your morning paper, you notice a complaint made by a prisoner about being punched by a cop while handcuffed. The cop denies it.

Who do you instinctively believe?

excon

I hate to say it, but instinct would probably tell me the cop punched him.

There was a time when I wouldn't have thought that, but not anymore.

I have to say I'd discredit the prisoner's recollection.

I think the whole issue here is that while some officers are very rotten(Hello, Frank Jude, Jr.! ), there are some who get the crap end of the deal because of it. Remember when your brother/sister disobeyed your parents, and you all got punished for it regardless of who started it? Yeah, like that.

Can you even imagine having to go to work everyday, do your job and then get told that someone's going to kill your kids just because you caught them selling crack? I'd probably punch the s.o.b. too...

Not all cops beat people. Not all cops are good. But I don't think it's right to throw them all together just because there's a couple d-bags out there in uniform who deserve to be handcuffed and punched in the face themselves.

Hello again:

Let me tell you a story.

Good or bad, I've seen the inside of MANY jail cells. With ONE exception, they were as you'd expect them to be - cops who have no respect for the prisoners - and the prisoners having even less respect for the cops.

The one exception was the Pueblo County, Colorado jail.

It was the ONE place where prisoners RIGHT OFF THE BAT, were treated respectfully and politely... It was NOTICEABLY different.

Would you believe that none of those cops got spit on or lied about?? I think, to some extent, you would.

THAT is my point.

excon

Let's see - I've never abused anyone. I am only investigating liability matters. I understood when I worked for the Feds that I was the enemy. I was called names, verbally abused, on a regular basis.

As an investigator within the past three years I have been pushed backwards over a porch railing, had a gun pulled on me and had someone "hold" me in his house, waiting for the Police to arrive - needless to say, when the Police arrived, HE was arrested, not me.

So it doesn't follow that an abuser becomes abused and a non-abuser is never abused.

If you are in law enforcement (or quasi-law enforcement) you get tarred with the same brush as the good/bad/indifferent Officers.

Hello again, Judy:

I'm not talking about individual officers. Hard as it may be to believe, I think there are many fine and honorable cops.

Not so hard to believe, is that I think there are many fine and honorable prisoners too.

But, I'm not talking about THEM.

I'm talking about a SYSTEM. I'm talking about a mindset within that system. I'm talking about MANAGEMENT of that system that seems to produce a different and desired result.

Finally, I'm talking about FIRST hand experience with that system, and the fact that it actually HAPPENED. It isn't pie in the sky, left leaning, liberal, soft on crime ideology.

Plus, I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts, that the Pueblo County sheriff didn't implement his system to protect the bad guys either. I'll bet he did it to protect his own. Funny how that works.

excon

It was the ONE place where prisoners RIGHT OFF THE BAT, were treated respectfully and politely.... It was NOTICEABLY different

excon. In that prison did you see much or if any difference from how the prisoners treated the guards and staff. I would be curious. I hope its yes.

It's a shame that there isn't a quick fix there. Our prisoners are so overcrowded and it seems to help create More Territorial problems.

I feel the sad part is TOO many children grow up seeing the crime on the streets and the 3rd world mentality of get or be gotten. They don't see enough respect or compassion and healthy morals. Ie the grown up child, Prisoner. Do you think if more respect is shown to the prisoners and stern politeness that the prisoners well get it. Or at lest a measurable amount to show it can or does work to make that difference. Or are they so used to aggresion that seems to be most all there seem to understand?

Or is has there been so much long term damage and attitude that its half hopeless?



Signed 21 Boat

If I Helped To Answer Your Question Please Rate My Answer

Excon. In that prison did you see much or if any difference from how the prisoners treated the guards and staff. I would be curious. I hope its yes.Hello again, 21:

Yes, absolutely. I thought I made that clear. That's not to say that some prisoners weren't disrespectful.. I'm sure there were plenty... But if there were, it WASN'T because the cop started it.

excon

Excon I just wanted to be sure and not assume. I'm glad to hear there is a glimmer of hope there. It sounds like that prison could be use a model for another approach on running a prison. That could be a positive step in the right direction

How's that for a Cheap Gov survey on prison protocol. Of course there is so much privatizing going on now.

Signed 21 Boat

If I Helped To Answer Your Question Please Rate My Answer

I would have to believe the cop

When I gave that answer while being questioned as a prospective juror I got booted out of the court room. Good to know if you want out of jury duty.

10 or 15 years ago, I would have believed the cop without much thought, but since then I have heard about so many wrongful convictions, including Donald Marshall, David Millgaard, Stephen Truscott, Guy Paul Morin, Anthony Haaynemeyer, Tom Stophonow, Bill Mullins-Johnson, Robert Baltovich among many others and I have seen from personal experience that there is a lot of police corruption. So now I would believe the prisoner more. About 5 years ago I had a dispute with a neighbor who was piling junk on my property wall, the situation escalated where he stole a property line marker, threatened to physically harm my mother and physically assaulted me on the street. When I called the police to have him charged, the officers accused me of starting it and changing my story and said if I didn't drop the matter, they would get the guy's neighbor to say that I started it! Luckily, I took him to small claims court and won a two thousand dollar settlement. You can't blame people for not trusting law enforment and the judicial system these days.

[QUOTE=Comments on this post
excon agrees: They look all nice in their uniforms, but they can't hide who they are. .[/QUOTE]



Love you, Excon, but got to disagree with the word "all." You want to say they all look nice... and some can't hide who they are. Fine. But not all. Not by a long shot.

If someone said "all excon's" do this or that, you would object.

I object!

I'd believe the prisoner to begin with. Then investigate and take steps as necessary according to the findings. It may not happen often but I don't think it should ever happen.

I believe anything is possible and of course cops are going stick up for one another. Where I live the cops saying "is we all bleed blue". Most cops think they are above the law anyway.

I remember when my cousin was in jail he used to always be put on lock down. My family use to always asked him why when we went to visit him. He told us that a CO in at the jail wanted to sleep with him but he didn't. When he turned her down she threaten to make his time in there a living hell and she follow through on her threats. I believed him because we went to visit him she would watch us closely. However he gave in to her and things turned around. Some of the other CO's knew but pretending they didn't. When he did got out he lived with and off her for a short time until he got on his feet.

Id believe the prisoner seen to many cops mistreat and beat human beings up savagely like animals for no reason, 4,5,6 cops @ a time beating on one person, come on. Police are often to aggressive and think they own the world, with ego's that shot straight through the stratosphere.

Hello again,

I'm not going to count, but it looks like MORE of us believe that the cop WOULD assault a handcuffed prisoner.

I think there's a message there... What do you think it is?

excon

More people on the receiving end of law enforcement post than people on the giving end?

Since I have seen many instances of police brutality,I go with the victim.

I was a protester in the late 60's and 70's and I saw people getting billy clubs to the head for sitting down.

I have witnessed it many times in my adult life as well.

I lived in a small town where the force was run by the mob and the judge and the whole crew were corrupt.

I have been arrested for defending a woman who was assaulted.By a cop!

I never been arrested but I see the cops take avantage of their position all the time.

Earlier on in the year a man claimed that 2 cops arrested him and while he was handcuffs they shoved some type of antenna up his rectum. Arresting officers deny it but his hospital records back up his claim. They even have the cops and him on camera and a few eye witnesses. The cops were placed on desk duty until the outcome of the trial.

l.
I have been arrested for defending a woman who was assaulted.By a cop!

Your one tough cookie!

excon agrees: A happy 420 to you on this most glorious of days, 4-20. Can you guess what I'm going to be doing at 4:20 this afternoon?
I'm guessing the same as everyday at that time:)

My son is fond of telling me *Mom,I always seem to look at the clock when its 4:20,I wonder what that means* Duh!

Your one tough cookie!

Or just stupid! I did end up in jail and that was no day at the park :eek:

Well, try this on for size:

I've never touched marijuana - not a single day in my life.
My daughter was born on 4/20.

I had a not to bright moment. I didn't know what 4-20 meant so I asked my dad because he knows everything.

He explained everything to and tried to get me to help out. My father is from the islands and since he retired all he does he smoke. Well that's not all he does but it do it a lot. Also, he has a lot of Jamaican friends and listen to Bob Marley, go figure.

Hi ex...

I should assume the cop was telling the truth,

But you ask for immediate reaction...

My immediate reaction was to believe the prisoner!!

People lie. Cops lie. Criminals lie. And above all, politicians and people in power lie. The only way the cop gets convicted is if he left his camera on or he was recorded on a public camera.

Play forensics. Marks where handcuffs are and marks on criminals body.

Any combination is possible.

excon agrees: A happy 420 to you on this most glorious of days, 4-20. Can you guess what I'm going to be doing at 4:20 this afternoon?
I'm guessing the same as everyday at that time:)

My son is fond of telling me *Mom,I always seem to look at the clock when its 4:20,I wonder what that means* Duh!

What is 4/20:confused:

What is 4/20?

The day to smoke weed... April 20th. Or every day at 4:20 pm.

What is 4/20?

The day to smoke weed... April 20th. Or every day at 4:20 pm.

K thanks lizz

Urban Dictionary: 420 (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=420)

I cannot say which I would believe, I would have to have more information.

But the moral of the story might be stay out of jail