Ok, here's a hot topic for people to discuss:

Scranton, news, obituaries, sports and shopping | thetimes-tribune.com | The Times-Tribune (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/R/REL_RELIGIOUS_AMERICA?SITE=PASCR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

I found this an interesting article. Seems to me that Americans are becoming more pragmatic and having less faith in organized religion. I was particularly attracted by this quote:
"The current survey, being released Monday, found traditional organized religion playing less of a role in many lives."

I think the line between saved people and those who are not is becoming increasingly sharp. I expect the trend to continue.

Christians, in the true sense of being
Dedicated followers of Jesus Christ have always been a minority. That fact is simply becoming more obvious.

I saw on my local TV news over the weekend that the Catholic Church is closing several churches in the Cleveland area and selling off the church items to other churches. I guess that attendance and the collection plate take isn't enough for them in a town that is dying so they're closing up shop and moving on to greener pastures.

I think the line between saved people and those who are not is becoming increasingly sharp. I expect the trend to continue.

Christians, in the true sense of being
dedicated followers of Jesus Christ have always been a minority. That fact is simply becoming more obvious.

Jesus is definitely making clear who is His and who is not.

About time organized religion dies. That will make room for true Christians to really come out of the background and show the true meaning of being a Christian.

Seems to me that Americans are becoming more pragmatic and having less faith in organized religion. I was particularly attracted by this quote:
"The current survey, being released Monday, found traditional organized religion playing less of a role in many lives."

I'm just struck by the fact that while the economy is going down the tubes, and tax payers are losing their jobs, there are still multi-million dollar churches being built everywhere you look.

Folks around here are beginning to ask where the church gets it's money from to build such a structure, on prime realty, with prime frontage. We have had two churches built in the last three years that are big enough to sponsor professional sporting events in and take up more than six acres each. When churches start looking more like big business, and less like spiritual congregation... I can see why "organized religion plays less of a role".

DieselJunkie - Yes I quite agree with you there about churches building bigger buildings. I have one such "church" that is a Baptist church and private school. Each time I drive past their facility they are adding more and more buildings and more parking spaces. I guess some religions don't believe in small churches and the bigger the better fits them just fine. The yearly tuition to this megachurch school for one kid is between $5-8,000 per year that the parents have to come up with.

DieselJunkie - Yes I quite agree with you there about churches building bigger buildings.

I have also noticed that the preachers no longer live in a humble parsonage. They are kicking back in 5000 square foot dream homes and driving escalades and lexus. We have a pentecostal 'preacher' here local that mysteriously got a brand new $500k home at the same time the church got it's insurance money after the hurricane. Funny, that many of his congregation still has the blue fema tarps on their roofs, or are still living in fema cottages. We even have a "biker church", and many nonsensical 'churches' that have popped up in everything from mobile homes, portables, and old rezoned homes.

The word is out, organized religion is where the money's at, and it's tax free! Which brings me back to where does the money come from?

Oh the government has some sort of handout to the churches so they'll "push" the agenda that the government wants such as "obey the government" type baloney. A lot of sheeple think that because my pastor told us, then it must be true. I forget offhand which denominations are the proud recipients of all this cash hand outs from the govt. But I'm pretty sure that the bunch down the road from me sure have their hands out big time.

I used to go to church but ever since they were pushing the Rick Warren book at Sunday school after reading it I completely stopped going. Also, there were 3 services on Sunday. One was traditional (which I went to) and the other two were basically "trash" consisting of a band (yes, a band) and I don't remember the other service "theme" but that was the final straw with the Rick Warren book for me. Haven't looked back since. I actually feel a bit better spiritually as well now being able to think for myself so to speak.

What really scares me is the Muslim stuff is getting more "play" in the media than Christianity now. I hope we are not going to be under Sharia law with the honor killings. That is horrid to think that a wife or daughter can be beheaded for stupid reasons by the husband or father. I shudder to think of this coming to America and being allowed.

Jesus is definitely making clear who is His and who is not.

Amen to that. The goats will be herded out of the flock and only the faithful will remain.

I think the line between saved people and those who are not is becoming increasingly sharp. I expect the trend to continue.

Christians, in the true sense of being
dedicated followers of Jesus Christ have always been a minority. That fact is simply becoming more obvious.

Amen to that! The bible is clear that in the last days there will be a "falling away" before the tribulation period. I personally know people who called themselves " saved" who have walked away from truth for a more liberal, tolerant way to believe. It sounds good doesn't it? The problem is it is false... the road is very wide and we see it more and more.

I read another survey that said the same thing Scott. I'm pleased with this, less divisiveness on the horizon.

We should keep something in mind about money the church gets. I comes from voluntary contributions. When the congregation ceases to trust the leadership, the money will stop.

Churches do not get money from the government. Certain faith based programs may, but those are things that benefit the community, not the church. Churches are tax exempt, but ministers are not.

What defines "organized" religion? As I understand it, the survey made no distinction between basic differences in organizations, whether Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, or Pentecostal, etc. A clearer picture could be seen if the survey had been broken down into the various groups. I think it can be shown that some groups are actually growing.

I believe that people are starting to realize that there is a difference between religion and spirituality,
While traditional churches are losing members by the hundreds the mega churches like Joel Osteen and local churches like them are packed as well as the New Age spiritual movement.

"The current survey, being released Monday, found traditional organized religion playing less of a role in many lives."

Good, there is hope for humanity yet.

Hello Scott:

Given my belief that religion was a great idea whose time has passed, the results don't surprise me at all.

excon

Respondents who called themselves "non-denominational Christian" grew from 0.1 percent in 1990 to 3.5 percent last year.


Perhaps this is a message to the traditional denominations.

I've found that many churches don't really display love. Either amongst the congregation or to those that are lost.

Due to recent moves in the past several years, I've found that those churches that do preach about sin and judgment, but also emphasize forgiveness, mercy, love, and deeds as a result of faith, are growing by leaps and bounds.







G&P

I believe that people are starting to realize that there is a difference between religion and spirituality,

I sure hope so. There's more than enough religion to go around. It's the spirituality that is lacking. I'll take spirituality over religion, anyday.

I sure hope so. There's more than enough religion to go around. It's the spirituality that is lacking. I'll take spirituality over religion, anyday.

Spirituality can be either good or bad.

Having the presence and move of the Holy Spirit in your church or life is good spirituality.

Having some occult demonstration, as in communication with the dead or spirit guides, is an evil thing.

Either can be called spiritual.

I have also noticed that the preachers no longer live in a humble parsonage. They are kicking back in 5000 square foot dream homes and driving escalades and lexus. We have a pentecostal 'preacher' here local that mysteriously got a brand new $500k home at the same time the church got it's insurance money after the hurricane. Funny, that many of his congregation still has the blue fema tarps on their roofs, or are still living in fema cottages. We even have a "biker church", and many nonsensical 'churches' that have popped up in everything from mobile homes, portables, and old rezoned homes.

The word is out, organized religion is where the money's at, and it's tax free! Which brings me back to where does the money come from?

Not all people in the churches, including the pastors, may be really obedient to the Bible. Unfortunately, their hypocrisy is what everyone sees.

We should keep something in mind about money the church gets. I comes from voluntary contributions. When the congregation ceases to trust the leadership, the money will stop.

Churches do not get money from the government. Certain faith based programs may, but those are things that benefit the community, not the church. Churches are tax exempt, but ministers are not.

What defines "organized" religion? As I understand it, the survey made no distinction between basic differences in organizations, whether Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, or Pentecostal, etc. A clearer picture could be seen if the survey had been broken down into the various groups. I think it can be shown that some groups are actually growing.

Churches may not be getting money from the gov. but they don't pay taxes either. Isn't that basically taking money, just through the back door?

Churches may not be getting money from the gov. but they don't pay taxes either. Isn't that basically taking money, just through the back door?

Unlike some today, the founders of this country understood the value of the Church to society. They recognized the only "hands off" way to create a favorable climate in which the Church could prosper was to make it tax exempt. Now that only applies to those properties that are actually used for ministerial purposes

Some groups are pushing the envelope with church related businesses, and that is a legitimate concern, but it is not exactly accurate to say that being tax exempt is the same thing as receiving money from the government.

Carried to the logical conclusion then would be to say since the Church is tax exempt and therefore receiving government money, then government could dictate church policy, thus creating a State church. That of course, is anathama to the Constitution.

Do you want the government telling the Church how it should operate or what it should teach?

[
QUOTE=galveston;1617849]Unlike some today, the founders of this country understood the value of the Church to society.


There is value when it operates properly in it's community.


They recognized the only "hands off" way to create a favorable climate in which the Church could prosper was to make it tax exempt.


Define "prosper".



Some groups are pushing the envelope with church related businesses, and that is a legitimate concern,

I agree



but it is not exactly accurate to say that being tax exempt is the same thing as receiving money from the government.

I agree it is not "exactly" accurate but it just about amounts to the same thing.





Do you want the government telling the Church how it should operate or what it should teach?[/QUOTE]

Absolutely not. And I don't want my gov issuing special perks to the church either, like making it tax exempt. It has a capacity to generate a lot of money, tax free. Any other group, person, or even gift recipient has to pay taxes on their earnings. Why not the church? When they make charitable donations or support missions , then they take the tax deduction. Just like everybody else. What about that does not make total sense?

Also, by taking advantage of the perk given by the gov, (tax exemption) seems like that would make them even MORE beholding to the gov telling them how to operate.

I think people should just be free to believe whatever they want and feel to be true for them. Organized religion pretty much tells you what things you have to believe. Sounds political to me.

i think people should just be free to believe whatever they want and feel to be true for them. organized religion pretty much tells you what things you have to believe. sounds political to me.

I totally agree with you. Why do we not have the option to do a greenie?

In my hometown 4 Catholic churches have been forced to close due to a struggling economy and the fact that there are no priests.
Heaven forbid they should allow a woman to preach and save their church.

I totally agree with you. Why do we not have the option to do a greenie?

Because this is the discussion board.

Because this is the discussion board.

Oooohhhhh. That makes sense I guess.

i think people should just be free to believe whatever they want and feel to be true for them. organized religion pretty much tells you what things you have to believe. sounds political to me.

I agree. People should believe what they want to. I think that people should choose the religion that they feel is right for them instead of being forced to practice the religion they were born into. I have many mixed beliefs so I don't really practice religion. I think it's just sometimes a matter of being young and living in a diverse country. Everything gets jumbled for kids who don't have parents that are religious or kids who have friends that are of other religions.

In my hometown 4 Catholic churches have been forced to close due to a struggling economy and the fact that there are no priests.
Heaven forbid they should allow a woman to preach and save their church.

Mark my words. They will reconsider, and have a change of policy when they don't have enough males to fill the posts. That is what happened to my protestant churches I used to attend. Once upon a time you could not be a woman and hold a leadership position of any kind. When positions became difficult to fill, they changed their belief.

Mark my words. They will reconsider, and have a change of policy when they don't have enough males to fill the posts. That is what happened to my protestant churches I used to attend. Once upon a time you could not be a woman and hold a leadership position of any kind. When positions became difficult to fill, they changed their belief.

In a perfect world you would think so but this is The Catholic Church and getting them to change policy is like pulling teeth.They still don't believe in birth control :confused:

Over and over, I see people complaining about forced religion (down our throats, etc,) ad nauseum.

No one here is forced to attend ANY church or believe ANYTHING.

Now if you live in an Islamic state, that is NOT true!

"You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free". Jesus Christ.

The Christian faith has produced more real freedom in this world than any other influence.

Note that I did not say "church membership".

I agree about people not being forced into believing in a religion. It's just that a lot of people become so influenced by their religion at a young age that they think that their religion is the one that is correct just because they were born into it. Sometimes they're so absorbed that it makes them so closeminded to others beliefs that they hate people that are not of their own religion or sect. that's why I don't practice any religion. There are just so many and everyone thinks their beliefs are correct. I just want to mix together beliefs and incorporate them into my own.

Personally, I don't want to introduce my child to any religion.

Religion - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Now, upon reading a definition from the online dictionary, who here would tell me that LAW, or any belief/ moral is not a religion? Any thing that you believe is a religion. People are not losing reliegion, they are changing it, and others are living by the codes and values of people who didn't understand how the world works, especially today.

If you think that you are not religious then prove to me that you do not in fact care either way about any thing at all. Life, death, babies, children, people, loved ones, cars, money, power, freedom, and so on. Every one has a religion, they just don't have a name for it, though I suppose Athism would probably be accurate?

XOXOlove, you are doing the same thing, thinking religion is what ever you think it is because you were raised in such a way, not necessarrily encouraged, but reasoned that religion is one thing or another.
In actuality, religion is apart of us all, unless you have not the capacity to think of your own acord.

Something I've realised about life it's self is that, life is not definable, it's Pliable. For example; "You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free". Jesus Christ. I'm sure most people agree that this means that if you embrace the truth, you will be set free. Well for me, it means realising that you are not ever free until you realise that you must accept the chains of responsibility before you can be free. I have put a few Phrases together to show My understanding of this concept.
"Knowledge is power, with great power comes great responsibility, through responsibility comes freedom."- Various sources.
So it's a Paradox, It says that knowledge is power,and power means responsibility, and that will bring freedom; However, "freedom - the power to determine action without restraint." is rather contradictory to the idea of "Responsibility - Something for which one is responsible; a duty, obligation, or burden." No? But the statement remains valid. Interesting if you ask me, because it's subject to interpretation. There can be any number of possible ideas from "Knowledge is power..."

That is the same for any religion, or belief, or idea. Pliable is the best word I've so far found for this idea/ concept what ever. I realise that ties very loosely into the converstation but, it also opens the doors to some more complex issues...

Personally, I don't want to introduce my child to any religion.

The fact that you just said that, is a show of religious motivation, due to that you believe that religion is some how "bad" or "wrong". You may want to make it more specific, like you don't want to introduce them to CHristianity, or JW, or Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confusionism, etc...

Eh?

Religion belongs on the same shelf as Hansel and Gretel, The Wisard of Oz and other fairy tales and make believe things such as the boggy man, easter bunny, tooth fairy, santa claus, you know childhood fantasy land. Though the bible stories are a little violent for the little ones, I think those can be left out or left for later in life.

For me life is, death happens, enjoy the ride, end of story

For ALL of us death happens! All of us should enjoy the ride but what a horrible waste if this is all there is!

A horrible waste of what?

If more people live their lives like this one is the only one we have they would probably make better choices. Instead we get prison born-agains who believe they are going to heaven.

A waste? No for me it would be a waste living my whole life thinking that in the end I will get my reward while all those who did me wrong will receive their punishments -likewise worrying about what punishments I was going to get for the things I did wrong. Why preoccupy my mind with the idea that it will all be OK in the end instead of dealing with the situation at hand? Why would it be a horrible waste if this IS it and we take our rewards and punishments right here and right now?

I'm glad I was born, I am in charge of my life, I am enjoying my life, and I look forward to my final experience. How could that be a waste?

If more people live their lives like this one is the only one we have they would probably make better choices. Instead we get prison born-agains who believe they are going to heaven.

And do you have such great wisdom that you know FOR CERTAIN that theyare not going to Heaven? You need to be sure because you are gambling your soul on it.

And do you have such great wisdom that you know FOR CERTAIN that theyare not going to Heaven?Nope I don't know for certain any of that but they believe they are going to "a better place" after treating people like crap during their lifetimes.

You need to be sure because you are gambling your soul on it. I'm not gambling anything at all. I don't gamble.

for me life is, death happens, enjoy the ride, end of story

Religion - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

What you are talking about with the stories, was Fables of religion. Even the Law, is a religion. It doesn't have to be a set of beliefs based on supernatural agencies, it can also be any other set of beliefs. Even a superstition maybe considered a reliegion...

If all we did was enjoy the ride, don't you think that some people would eventually regress to primal mind sets? Like the strong survive, and the weak die. Really there is more at work here then just life and death. To ignore such things is to ignore the very fact that you exist. Even if we do not "live on" after we die as spirits, we will become apart of the world around us. OUr bodies become food for the insects and the chain of life changes into something else.

Though I do suppose your idea of life and death are plossible possibilities. No one really knows what a spirit really is, so maybe we turn into something else. Who knows. :confused:

If all we did was enjoy the ride, don't you think that some poeple would eventually regress to primal mind sets? Like the strong survive, and the weak die. Really there is more at work here then just life and death. To ignore such things is to ignore the very fact that you exist. Millions do indeed "enjoy the ride" and they are a regular part of society, you'd never tell them apart from your religious friends. There are fanatics on either side, people are individuals, not groups of "saved" versus "not saved". Sure there is more than life and death, there's that whole bit in between; but not believing in an unseen being certainly does not ignore the very fact that one exists.

And do you have such great wisdom that you know FOR CERTAIN that theyare not going to Heaven? You need to be sure because you are gambling your soul on it.

Define the human soul.

Define heaven.

Define god.

Did you know that there was an ancient civilization that believed Aliens brought them here. That the aliens were GODs. This civilization some believe to be the lost civilization of Atlantis. They had tons of knowledge, about stars, planets, time (calenders and such.) and so on. It is said by many that it it the oldnest known civilization on earth, roughly 6000B.C.

"The Sumerian Culture, which dates back to 6,000 BC, is the oldest known culture on Earth. Even today we still use the same Mathematical system, Calendar, and Time as they created it so long ago. Since we have the evidence left over today, 6,000 years later, we can see similarities between what they had then, and what we have now.

The Sumerians describe Planet X as being very far from Earth at times, (roughly 30,000,000,000) miles away at it's farthest point from us in orbit. This would make it rather difficult to travel back and forth between the two planets if separated by so much of a distance...

Through the great works of scholars such as Zecharia Sitchin and Lloyd Pye, we have learned that the Anunnaki are said to have created Humans from the primitive man already here, and combined their genes with the primitive Neanderthal to create us. (In their image and after their likeness - just like the bible). More info about the Anunnaki" Sumerian Alien Description - Sumerian Culture and The Anunnaki (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/anunnaki/anu_1b.htm#sumerian_alien)

Now, I have some skeptisim about this whole idea, but I can not prove or disprove it, so logically I can not accept or unaccept it with out running a risk of being wrong. Why choose whe you can remain open to the idea and just let be what is, and choose what words work for you, and accept that others will do the same.

I've recently did some interesting research and found that:
Preying, meditation, self-affrimations, Cognitive Psychology, even nuerological studies of the imaginaton are tied to one another, if not the same idea different words. They all require imagination, and the imagination is the beginning of anything.

Life seems rather Pliable, and when you try to define it, or control it too much; It'll surprise you and change in some way, or show you that you've missed something along the line some where.

People say, why not enjoy the ride, very dangerous, in that some may take that as a dare to go out and take dangerous risks. Drinking too much, having unprotected sex, having children you won't look after, ignoring others needs, using what you want and leaving nothing for others (the future to be more dramatic, killing out forests/ environment = killing our childern or their childern. No?). No, we also must take responsibility for our actions, as we are fully capable of empathy...

Or maybe I'm just a crazy brother with no idea what I'm talking about, but I guess that's for all else to decide. Who really knows what is after death?

Personally, I almost wonder if we don't travel on a beam of light to a far off place. I mean imagine this, you die, your spirit takes the beam of light to a place billions of light years a way, to some other galaxy and start the whole life thing over again, but as a higher being of consiousness. Like being put in another body, already made. That would be crazy. But there are trials to see if you belong here or there. Depending on how you preform you will receive your retribution. That was just an idea I made up, just now. How can any one argue against it? We don't know the nature of our souls, or what it really is. So why not, eh?

"there is no right or wrong, there is no good or bad, there is only possiblities." -Me
This is a paradox, because I clearly state there are no right, worng, good, or bad, but by saying there are possibilities, I'm also saying that they are possible. So I contradict myself in a way, but at the same time, it's still true.

Any way I'm sure I'm rambling now. :rolleyes: that's me. :p

Peace and kindness

Millions do indeed "enjoy the ride" and they are a regular part of society, you'd never tell them apart from your religious friends. There are fanatics on either side, people are individuals, not groups of "saved" versus "not saved". Sure there is more than life and death, there's that whole bit in between; but not believing in an unseen being certainly does not ignore the very fact that one exists.

I should explain that better sorry. I don't care what any one religion, The LAW included mainly on account that people are so easily corupted. They were written by people none the less, then translated from that by others, it's all subject to one's own interpretation.

In deed we are individuals, however, we are also one and the same. "all are one and one is all" Led-zeppelin. People all feel the same feelings, anger, joy, sadness, fear, confution, stress, anxiety, happyness, love, hate, comfort, and belonging, etc; but, some for different reasons than others. If we weren't like that, then how would eve ever understand one another? We have felt this or that before so we can see why some one may react/ act in a given situation. I don't care your race, or religion, as long as you are relatively mentaly stable/ intelegent we are One.

And I will repeate life is Pliable, unfixed, always changing, in constant motion, etc. I don't think that any one answer would ever suffice. As my Phrase below about the colours implies, there is not only one way, nor is there two, there are tones of possibities.

Peace and kindness be with you.

Yup, that's about right. I remember backpacking through Europe after university and meeting people from around the world and thinking "holy crap, we're all really the same." :)

Yup, that's about right. I remember backpacking through Europe after university and meeting people from around the world and thinking "holy crap, we're all really the same." :)

Sweet, I have only bin to Australia and new Zealand. But I got to stay at each place for about 3 weeks each. So fun. :D Lots of beautiful women, too :p:rolleyes:

The aussies and kiwis in Europe were the loudest for sure... and fun!

The aussies and kiwis in Europe were the loudest for sure...and fun!

They sure know how to party, and I'm from B.C. Canada. I've heard we cvan get rough and roudy, but wow. They are a blast man. :p

Really there is more at work here then just life and death.

Well yes there is a lot of living to do. I'm not against any person's religion. I just don't feel the need to believe in supernatural powers and magic fantastic miracle type things to base my life on. And I'm fine. Really.