Well, never thought I'd be here asking this. I've known my wife for 13 years (since I was 18), and been married for 12 with two great kids (8 & 10 plus a 14 yr old stepdaughter I've raised since she was 1); she decided to leave 3 days before Christmas. There was no "event" to leave over (domestic violence, abuse, alcoholism/drug addiction, gambling, infidelity). We both work, and I work 8-5 M-F, while she worked 3pm-12am for a retail store. Once I got off from work I'd go home and take care of the children until they were ready for bed (cook dinner, all that stuff). So, she didn't have many domestic duties (no desperate housewife here) and was by herself most of the time before work at 3pm. According to my wife, she says she left because she "needs her own life" and since she's going to be 37 feels like her life is going nowhere. I don't understand this point. I work for a state university and we planned on working for a few years to pay off my student loan debts and then she could attend college for her subject of choice (practically for free since I'm faculty). She quit her job and moved in with her mother (4 hours away) while taking the three children with her. She has no means of obtaining gainful employment (minimum wage is all she's getting with her education & experience), and is relying completely off her mother and step-father. I don't understand this... why leave a husband who cooks 5 days a week and is willing to help you make it through school? I don't think she's likely to finish college raising three kids by herself, and her mother is unreliable and moves every 3-6 months and has for the past 13 years (no joke, I have often wondered if they are running from the law or creditors). The odds on her staying put for 4 years while she goes to school (she's dropped out several times because she gets burned-out) are really low and approach the astronomically small range...


So, while she was still at home I begged and pleaded for her to stay and try to work this out for us, the children, and for our economic security. Between the two of us we do just fine but her income is more supplemental and mine is the main income (50K between the two of us in a small, rural state which is pretty good for this area). I've been leaving her alone (no text message, email, or phone "terrorism" from me), and every once in a while she calls me... while it's typically business of some sort, I've noticed that she'll stay on the phone for a while and talk about general things; almost like she misses me but not quite sure what to make of it. This makes me wonder if she's serious about divorcing or just having a midlife crisis of some sort... and she says it's officially a separation. I miss my wife so much that I'd do almost anything to have her come back and reunite our family. I'd go to counseling, take a second job so she can stay home (she says she's burned out from working all the time) I thought we were just working a lot and trying to buy our home... ignored some of the signs that she was growing cold towards me... guess I should have seen it coming but since we worked the schedule we did I rarely saw her. She also had many friends at work who where 18-22 and have no children or spouses, and I've wondered if hanging out around these younger people left her feeling old and bored... any suggestions?

I'm guessing that somewhere in her mind, the must be more to this situation... as time goes on, she will most likely do one, of two things... she will decide to come back, or if she decides not to come back, be prepared for "all the things youve done wrong over the years" to come out of the wood work... if she is hanging out with younger single gals, its probably not a good sign... sometimes, listening to the younger girls carry on will remind someone a bit older of how great it was to be young... how great life was at that point... and sometimes, the women wants to feel that feeling again.. get a so to speak "high" in life once again... unfortunately, once you mature and grow older, have children and a family... this feeling never quite comes back the way you remember it to be... but that's something she is going to have to find out on her own... just as they say, the grass is not always greener on the other side...

I meant to add that...

The "all the things youve done wrong over the years" conversation is usually someone's way to justify in their own mind the reasons for leaving you... it kind of gives people anger to fuel their own fire and back themselves up on their reasons for leaving... did that make any sense at all? LOL

She needed a break so she took one, and you'll know later exactly why. That's why it does no good assuming, and presuming, until you have facts, and can make a decision.

The facts you do have are, she is gone, and not happy. Find out what's on her mind and what she wants to do, and what you need to do.

I would give her the space she needs right now though.

Sorry, but this is a slow painful process.

Time and space from her is going to give you guys both great perspective of what the two of you want. As for now, you need think about the children you have together

Read this book, things will make more sense.

Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity (http://womensinfidelity.com/)

Even without the infidelity part, still gives you a darn good idea about what goes through women's heads and why they do what they do.

Read this book, things will make more sense.

Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity (http://womensinfidelity.com/)

Even without the infidelity part, still gives you a darn good idea about what goes through women's heads and why they do what they do.

Thanks to all who responded. I read through what you recommended and I have to say it's almost a mirror image of what's going on with my wife's behavior. Coupled with working around young people who have no kids, spouses, or responsibilities for that matter, I can see how she just couldn't take it. Like the book states, my wife was the one who pushed for a commitment and marriage. I was a ripe 19 year old who was attending college and playing drums in a heavy metal band... not exactly the type who wanted marriage and a stepchild! Eventually I agreed to marry, and we had two children and I thought built a great life (I finished my master's degree two years ago and work ironically as a counselor at the local university). Then, this bomb gets dropped... I don't know if she's having an affair. It's possible, and there have been a few things that made me wonder but strangely enough I have been the one who initiated the disinterest in sex. I think it was primarily medication-induced, but she didn't like it and said it because of that she felt old and unattractive. I certainly didn't want my wife to feel that way, but given how angry she seemed to be at me I just figured I'd leave it well enough alone. I figured we were stable enough to work out our problems if they ever got serious enough to warrant a separation and/or potential divorce... boy was I wrong.

She wants me to visit the children, but I have to tell you I just don't feel up to being the sucker ex-dad. I've just seen it too many times. I love my family, and hope it stays together but it's extremely common for the old dad to get pushed to the curb once a new relationship begins. Not saying I won't ever see them, but I'm planning on enrolling into a Ph.D. program (psychology, of all things... that's what I originally wanted to do but took a job after my master's degree to support my family... now that they're gone I'm focusing on what I want to do) that is over 10 hours away... the reality is I won't get to see them much. I didn't want any of this, but I'm also not going to make it easier for her by catering to whatever she does. She wants to be a single parent, she gets to be single parent. Many might disagree with me, but once your children have essentially been stolen from you (naught but a few days before Christmas, might I add... it was the worst Christmas for everyone... she couldn't wait a few weeks? What gives?), with little justification or remorse... I just have to move on for now and focus on myself. She has little to look forward to really, a minimum-wage retail job and a high school education with three children. That to me is far more miserable and restrictive than having a family and husband who wants you to finish college. Instead of feeling trapped within our marriage, she's going to feel the pressure and stress of poverty with nothing to look forward to with three children who miss their dad. It's just illogical, in my view. Anyway, I'm always open to feedback.

As where the children are concerned, I think the best thing for them is to try and keep our family intact. Short of that, I just don't see how I can do anything to truly try and assuage the damage that divorce inflicts upon children. I hate divorce, and remember the pain as a child of my parents constantly marrying and divorcing both each other and other people. It makes a joke out of marriage. Wish they would take out the "till death do us part" because it's not true anymore, if it ever was.

i meant to add that.....

the "all the things youve done wrong over the years" conversation is usually someones way to justify in their own mind the reasons for leaving you.... it kind of gives people anger to fuel their own fire and back themselves up on their reasons for leaving...... did that make any sense at all? LOL

Yes, it does make sense. She's even told me that nothing is really bad, there's just not enough good to justify staying. I think she's headed for disaster with her fingers in her ears myself, as the poverty rates for single women with children are astronomically high, especially with a high school diploma and little work experience. :confused:

Time and space from her is going to give you guys both great perspective of what the two of you want. As for now, you need think about the children you have together


As where the children are concerned, it sucks because where they used to have a dad every day (heck, I cooked dinner five days a week) they now have no one. I'm likely going to move 10 hours away (and probably more after I'm done with my doctorate) and between that and my doctorate it's not likely there will be much of a relationship. Not trying to be difficult or a jerk, but I know how these things usually work out. Once the woman finds someone else, it typically results in the dad being demoted to a distant memory. She wanted me to watch them overnight so she could stay with a "friend" in a nearby town. While I'd love to see my children, I'm not going to be her babysitter for what could be a potential affair. I simply won't do it that way because it's insulting on many different levels.

Not trying to be difficult or a jerk, but I know how these things usually work out. Once the woman finds someone else, it typically results in the dad being demoted to a distant memory.
That is usually only because he chose to be. All too often when there is a separation/divorce the parents resentment or each other hurts the children more than anyone else. If you don't want to become a "distant memory" in your children's lives then you have to take a proactive stand. MAKE time for them. Don't allow it to become a relationship only when it fits your schedule. Children aren't as unobservant as you might think. They will pick up on the fact that Dad won't come visit and that will lead o resentment. I applaud your working on your Phd. But I think the way you are handling the situation with your children is not the best course of action.

Even though you are going through many mixed emotions... please think carefully before distancing yourself from your children. This is difficult for them as well, as you have said you have memories of how terrible it was when you went through this as a child... learn from your parents mistakes when you were a child going through this same situation, and make great efforts to prevent your children from suffering in this situation. Don't act out of anger for your wife... act with love for your children... your still daddy... and nothing will ever change that as long as you handle this situation appropriately. Make wise decisions not ones that are fueled by anger or revenge.
I wish you the best.

I'm guessing she's deep in a midlife crisis.

When I was her age, my kids had just started school all day and I worked part-time. My husband was the primary breadwinner, and my paycheck covered Hallmark cards, eating out at fast-food places on weekends, and our weekly church contribution. I sat there and wondered, is this all there is?

I switched to contact lenses, got a cute haircut, and hung out with other women in the same boat I was in. We joined a bowling league. We had tea parties at each other's homes. When our husbands came home at night, they were tired and just wanted to sit and stare at the TV. Again I wondered, is this all there is?

I changed jobs and started to find myself working at a job I really liked and that brought out the best in me. A few years had gone by. I started grad school. I got a master's in counseling psych. I continued at that great job I had (and still have) and counseled in my spare time (and still do). It finally all came together. I pray it will for your wife too. Going on in school will be the best thing she can do for herself and for her future. Living the way she is now might just cause the facts of that to smack her in the face, and she will return home to you. If she does, sign up for family systems counseling.

I think you really need to sit down and ask yourself how you may have contributed to this. You have mentioned cooking dinner 5 days a week for your children, and have also said that you have initiated the lack of sexual relations with her. As the old saying goes, it doesn't matter how flat you make a pancake, it still has two sides. What was your role in this?

I see from your words that it is a point of contention with you, that she doesn't have the education that you have. You seem to focus a lot on the fact that she doesn't have the skills to get a well paying job. Did you perhaps let her know that you felt less of her because of her lack of formal education? I am getting that sense.

To say that the father is usually pushed to the side because of a new man, is presumptuous and a little pretentious. This is where people often use the children as an excuse to vilify the other parent. This is NO EXCUSE not to be in your children's lives, just as you had been before. Cooking dinner for your kids doesn't make you a Dad. Being there under the worst of circumstances makes you a Dad! Anyone can be a "father," but a "DAD" will put his own feelings aside to "ensure" that his children will know that he will be there for them, no matter what their mother does, or who their mother is with! That is entirely up to you, and it will entirely rest on your shoulders if your children start to call someone else "Daddy!"

I know that you are hurt, but you need to "man up" and do the right thing. You can't change how your wife behaves, but you can certainly change the way you handle this! Show your children that "Daddy" doesn't crumble and run away because Mommy has made a decision that you don't agree with. And for God sakes, please don't treat your step child differently than you do your bio children. Teach them all to hold their heads up high, no matter what circumstances or challenges they have to face in their young lives. That job was assigned to you when you had ALL of these children. This isn't just about you anymore. God blessed you with these kids. Don't disappoint them, because you are hurting because of their mothers decisions. Make your children your biggest success in life, and even though you don't agree with their mothers choices, showing their mother respect through the hurt, will silently speak more than words.

That is usually only because he chose to be. All too often when there is a separation/divorce the parents resentment or each other hurts the children more than anyone else. If you don't want to become a "distant memory" in your children's lives then you have to take a proactive stand. MAKE time for them. Don't allow it to become a relationship only when it fits your schedule. Children aren't as unobservant as you might think. They will pick up on the fact that Dad won't come visit and that will lead o resentment. I applaud your working on your Phd. but I think the way you are handling the situation with your children is not the best course of action.

Point taken. However, they also realize that I didn't want any of this and it was a unilateral move. In fact, my son was also begging his mother to stay with me because divorce makes him "feel like barf." At some point I will see them but not right now; I'm going to D.C. for a week to take a group of students to the inauguration, and then I have to move. After that I'm visiting Texas A&M to see about their doctoral program in psych. She took them away and wouldn't let me see them for Christmas or New Year's, which really did hurt like hell. She's letting them stay with me at the end of the month so she can spend the night with her "friends." I'm not going to be her babysitter but I'll see my children once this calms down and I've moved.

Bottom line is that you have a decision to make... are you going to appropriately handle this situation or are you going to let the situation handle you?. don't let your emotions control you... you have to control them. Do what you need to do and what you know you should do... it doesn't matter if she is using you as a babysitter or not, those are your children... enjoy the time you get with them. Don't cut your nose off despite your face.

I'm guessing she's deep in a midlife crisis.

When I was her age, my kids had just started school all day and I worked part-time. My husband was the primary breadwinner, and my paycheck covered Hallmark cards, eating out at fast-food places on weekends, and our weekly church contribution. I sat there and wondered, is this all there is?

I switched to contact lenses, got a cute haircut, and hung out with other women in the same boat I was in. We joined a bowling league. We had tea parties at each other's homes. When our husbands came home at night, they were tired and just wanted to sit and stare at the TV. Again I wondered, is this all there is?

I changed jobs and started to find myself working at a job I really liked and that brought out the best in me. A few years had gone by. I started grad school. I got a master's in counseling psych. I continued at that great job I had (and still have) and counseled in my spare time (and still do). It finally all came together. I pray it will for your wife too. Going on in school will be the best thing she can do for herself and for her future. Living the way she is now might just cause the facts of that to smack her in the face, and she will return home to you. If she does, sign up for family systems counseling.


Thanks for the feedback and experience. I understand feeling like "is that all there is?" but we had a plan... a good and reasonable plan that we both discussed and agreed upon. She is currently residing with her mother and step-father, who are extremely unstable. No exaggeration, these people move every 2-6 months and have consistently done this for the 13 years I've known them. When I asked her how she really expects them to commit for 4 years to supporting her, the children, and her schooling she got really quiet. I've always considered myself a logical person and a realistic person. That is how I managed to finish a master's degree with a family in tow while working. Her plan sounds fantastic and unrealistic (she's dropped out of school before because she was feeling overwhelmed and her mother moved... again, she's going into an unstable situation with little income and a high school education in the 48th poorest state), and I know her mother is not likely to stay in the same home or town for the entire year, let alone 4 years starting in August. I hope reality smacks her in the face because what she's doing reeks of rash foolishness. She's apparently OK with it, but it's only been 3 weeks and she quit her job as well... so, her mother and step-father are having to support her and the children. No doubt about it, they'll quickly tire of a 36 year-old mother of three who isn't working and left her husband for what appears to be trivial reasons. I hope she comes back soon, because if she isn't back by August then I'm moving away, quiting my job and starting a doctoral program. That will also buy some time and if I do become divorced my support will be minimal due to a lack of income. This might sound cold and calculating but if I give her 40% of my take-home pay I'll be living in grinding poverty with no end in sight. If I get my Ph.D. and move back to California (where I'm from), then I can triple my salary and actually make a living while also supporting my children. I just don't see living in a small rural town making the low 10% of my field's average salary, especially by myself. I don't want to date or marry another Arkansan either; I want someone with a similar background, education, and goals. Whenever our families get together for a holiday or children's function, it is soooo obvious we're from two different worlds. My father is a physician, my mother has two bachelor's degrees, my brother is finishing up his Ph.D. in molecular genetics, and my other brother taught music for Aspen High School, while no one in her family has even been to college. In fact, her father was downright angry when I received a full scholarship (a monthly living stipend, full tuition & fees, along with a book allowance... nice scholarship!) to attend graduate school because we moved 1.5 hours away. He would have been far happier had I been a lumberjack or something... we come from two different worlds, and it shows.


As for counseling, I've offered but she is not interested at this time. Maybe eventually she'll come around, but I don't think she's living in the real world right now. All she can see is that I'm the root of her problems and if she only leaves then everything will be better. I've also told her that she might want to consider personal counseling to deal with some of these issues regardless of whether we stay together, because if you don't deal with your issues you simply bring them to the next relationship and start the process all over. She's still saying that I'm the whole problem and she just needed to get away to make it better. I'm damn lonely at night, though. Maybe I need to find someone to hang out with or be "friends" with... she has the children and her mother for support. I'm by myself and have only this helpdesk for support... you guys/gals have been great, but it's just not the same as having a friend or lover to support you.

I think you really need to sit down and ask yourself how you may have contributed to this. You have mentioned cooking dinner 5 days a week for your children, and have also said that you have initiated the lack of sexual relations with her. As the old saying goes, it doesn't matter how flat you make a pancake, it still has two sides. What was your role in this?

I see from your words that it is a point of contention with you, that she doesn't have the education that you have. You seem to focus alot on the fact that she doesn't have the skills to get a well paying job. Did you perhaps let her know that you felt less of her because of her lack of formal education? I am getting that sense.

To say that the father is usually pushed to the side because of a new man, is presumptuous and a little pretentious. This is where people often use the children as an excuse to villify the other parent. This is NO EXCUSE not to be in your childrens lives, just as you had been before. Cooking dinner for your kids doesn't make you a Dad. Being there under the worst of circumstances makes you a Dad! Anyone can be a "father," but a "DAD" will put his own feelings aside to "ensure" that his children will know that he will be there for them, no matter what their mother does, or who their mother is with! That is entirely up to you, and it will entirely rest on your shoulders if your children start to call someone else "Daddy!"

I know that you are hurt, but you need to "man up" and do the right thing. You can't change how your wife behaves, but you can certainly change the way you handle this! Show your children that "Daddy" doesn't crumble and run away because Mommy has made a decision that you don't agree with. And for God sakes, please don't treat your step child differently than you do your bio children. Teach them all to hold their heads up high, no matter what circumstances or challenges they have to face in their young lives. That job was assigned to you when you had ALL of these children. This isn't just about you anymore. God blessed you with these kids. Don't disappoint them, because you are hurting because of their mothers decisions. Make your children your biggest success in life, and even though you don't agree with their mothers choices, showing their mother respect through the hurt, will silently speak more than words.

Appreciate the honest feedback. What has been a point of contention is the fact that she never seems to complete any long-term goals. In some ways she's like her mother and will start things but never finish them. That happened when I first met her (she was living with her mother and attending college but dropped out because her mother moved and wouldn't watch her daughter), then for massage therapy school, and then for beauty school. She simply doesn't have what it takes to complete a program of study, in my opinion. I wanted to help her finish a degree so we could both work and make a decent living, and so nursing was an idea because she liked it before. However, she stated that she no longer wanted to do that, and considered middle-school education because the pay is decent and we'd have the same days off (I was thinking about summers in Europe, Christmas in the Gulf of Mexico, fun stuff). However, she didn't want to do it and said she wanted to stay at JCPenney's making minimum wage with little chance of promotion. It ticks me off because it takes two people to support a family these days and I felt like I was the only one trying both at home and at work. I felt like I was the only one willing to work for a better future for ourselves and our children.

"if you make the wrong things too important in life, then sometimes the important things go wrong"

I don't know anything about you, but it feels like you were already tired of this relationship with her being from a modest family and you pushing for education... maybe she noticed you felt this way, which made her unhappy about the whole thing.

Anyway, you're moving on but I think you're abandoning the children... you don't seem to be particularly worried about she taking them to a unstable household beyond the "it was her choice, now it's her problem" attitude. Again, I don't know about your life, but have you considered fighting for custody? I know it's hard to go through grad school with kids (hell, I am single, no kids and already have a hard time!), but the youngest is already eight and they are probably more able to care of themselves... plus, schools usually offer support for parenting students.

Wish you all the best.

I don't know anything about you, but it feels like you were already tired of this relationship with her being from a modest family and you pushing for education... maybe she noticed you felt this way, which made her unhappy about the whole thing.

Anyway, you're moving on but I think you're abandoning the children... you don't seem to be particularly worried about she taking them to a unstable household beyond the "it was her choice, now it's her problem" attitude. Again, I don't know about your life, but have you considered fighting for custody? I know it's hard to go through grad school with kids (hell, I am single, no kids and already have a hard time!), but the youngest is already eight and they are probably more able to care of themselves... plus, schools usually offer support for parenting students.

Wish you all the best.



Thanks for the feedback, I do appreciate it. I don't plan on abandoning my children, but I do want her to feel how difficult it is for single parents. Hopefully the reality will wake her up and we can try to keep our family intact. I'd be lying if I said there wasn't some resentment in this, because I am hurt and angry beyond belief. When I first met her, she was young, vibrant, beautiful, and seemed to want something out of life. I was attracted to that spirit as well, but apparently she just doesn't have that drive and ambition anymore. I know having kids and a spouse can kill your dreams, but we were making them happen... we actually made a decent income last year for the first time. That's also very frustrating. I feel like I've climbed Mt. Everest (going to undergrad and grad school with a family and working as well the entire time), only to stumble upon a pebble and fall all the way back down.

I don't know anything about you, but it feels like you were already tired of this relationship with her being from a modest family and you pushing for education... maybe she noticed you felt this way, which made her unhappy about the whole thing.

Anyway, you're moving on but I think you're abandoning the children... you don't seem to be particularly worried about she taking them to a unstable household beyond the "it was her choice, now it's her problem" attitude. Again, I don't know about your life, but have you considered fighting for custody? I know it's hard to go through grad school with kids (hell, I am single, no kids and already have a hard time!), but the youngest is already eight and they are probably more able to care of themselves... plus, schools usually offer support for parenting students.

Wish you all the best.

One more thing; I was worried about the unstable household, and told her that the children needed to be back in school by January 5th. She told me that "You don't really want to open that can of worms" and that I needed to back off or I'd regret it. Since she is a custodial parent, I'm not sure there is much that can be done to prevent this. Also, if I fought and gained custody it would be too easy for her and she'd likely not come back. The harder her life is as a single parent, the more likely she'll wise up and we can attend counseling. That's just my opinion, of course.

Did you give any consideration to my last post? Why have you not gone for counselling, yet you've suggested that she should. You don't speak of your wife in a very positive light at all. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you talked to her the way you are talking about her and her family here, I can honestly say I can see why she took the kids and left you!

You focus an awful lot on "status!" Everything that you have mentioned, centers around education, money, and you... you... you! You haven't told us ANYTHING good about your wife! You haven't said if she a genuine person, a caring person, a wonderful mother, a great caretaker... etc. All we have heard is how uneducated she and her family are. Do you think it matters to us how successful your family has been, or all of the degrees that you all have? At the end of the day, none of that matters if you have such contempt for someone who has less of an education than you do. You really do make it sound like your wife and her family are beneath you!

You made references to lumberjacks and people from Arkansas in a very negative way. You better bow down and thank those lumberjacks for making it possible to have the paper to write out your 6 figure pay cheque, and you damn well better thank that "uneducated" Arkansas girl for bearing your children and mothering them!

Yes you do sound "cold and calculating," because that is the way you are being! You are doing this at the expense of your own CHILDREN! For that you should be ashamed! What are you teaching your children? You are teaching them that if you are angry with their mother, that they have to pay for it! 40% of your salary is the least you can do for them, because the morals you are teaching their young impressionable minds will linger.

I believe you need to take the focus off your wife leaving you, and focus on what you need to do to make yourself a better person. That is likely the only way she will come back. If she doesn't, well then deal with what is in front of you like a man. Stop villifying your wife and talking down upon her. She is the mother of your children. You picked her!

I'm sure you aren't going to like my words, and that is fine with me, but if you really want some help, you need to take a good look in the mirror first.

EDIT: This was written before I saw that you had quoted me and answered.

im guessing that somewhere in her mind, the must be more to this situation.... as time goes on, she will most likely do one, of two things... she will decide to come back, or if she decides not to come back, be prepared for "all the things youve done wrong over the years" to come out of the wood work... if she is hanging out with younger single gals, its probably not a good sign... sometimes, listening to the younger girls carry on will remind someone a bit older of how great it was to be young... how great life was at that point... and sometimes, the women wants to feel that feeling again.. get a so to speak "high" in life once again

I agree with most of the rest of what you said though!

One more thing; I was worried about the unstable household, and told her that the children needed to be back in school by January 5th. She told me that "You don't really want to open that can of worms" and that I needed to back off or I'd regret it. Since she is a custodial parent, I'm not sure there is much that can be done to prevent this. Also, if I fought and gained custody it would be too easy for her and she'd likely not come back. The harder her life is as a single parent, the more likely she'll wise up and we can attend counseling. That's just my opinion, of course.

If the kids aren't in school when they should be, and she's the custodial parent, then report her for truancy.

In the US, kids have to be in school up to a certain age (which varies by state). This is LAW.

Honestly, though--it doesn't sound like you're making any effort at all to make your marriage work.

Good luck with your degree--hope it keeps you warm at night.

What has been a point of contention is the fact that she never seems to complete any long-term goals. In some ways she's like her mother and will start things but never finish them. That happened when I first met her (she was living with her mother and attending college but dropped out because her mother moved and wouldn't watch her daughter), then for massage therapy school, and then for beauty school. She simply doesn't have what it takes to complete a program of study, in my opinion. I wanted to help her finish a degree so we could both work and make a decent living, and so nursing was an idea because she liked it before. However, she stated that she no longer wanted to do that, and considered middle-school education because the pay is decent and we'd have the same days off (I was thinking about summers in Europe, Christmas in the Gulf of Mexico, fun stuff). However, she didn't want to do it and said she wanted to stay at JCPenney's making minimum wage with little chance of promotion. It ticks me off because it takes two people to support a family these days and I felt like I was the only one trying both at home and at work. I felt like I was the only one willing to work for a better future for ourselves and our children.

GreatBig, After reading all your posts, I'm with Starbuck. And more, actually. You come across in your posts as profoundly selfish and arrogant.

I don't have the impression that you have been supportive of your wife or given her the chance to go through school. You lord it over her with your own education, which you apparently got while married to her, as she slaved away at low-end jobs, yet you appear not to have made room for Her to get any education.

By your own account, when you were together, you barely saw each other, and she hardly saw her children. What kind of life is that? What "plan" of yours justifies decisions like that? There's more to life than money. You imply there's another man, but present no evidence. You this her and constantly this her family. We understand that you feel angry, but this is more than anger. It's total lack of respect. And you talk about "babysitting" your own kids. It is physically impossible for a parent to be a babysitter. You are a parent, not a babysitter.

Why is she working 9-hour shifts at Penny's instead of taking classes toward a degree like you? In 12 years, there was never time for her to go back to school? In all that time, it's no surprise that she entertained a lot of different ideas of what she would do if she ever got the chance. In 12 years you got a BA and an MA and a bigger income. In 12 years, what has she got? Zip. And now you want to punish her for not sticking it out for even longer? I'm betting she spent all that free time before she had to go to work at 3 pm shopping for groceries and doing your laundry. I'm betting she's tired of taking care of your needs and being told what a zero she is.

And now you are quitting your job and going for MORE education? It sounds to me like you are competing with your siblings instead of focusing on your family. Forget the PhD. For now. Do it after your kids have your education or better. Doing it now is greedy and selfish, no matter how you rationalize it. (What good is your imagined bigger income and fanciful life in California going to do your kids after they are already grown up?) I think you are going back to school so you won't have to pay child support.

Keep your job and support your wife so she can go to school, finally, and care for her kids (if you won't). If you start cherishing her and treating her with reverence and respect, she MIGHT come back. But even if she doesn't, you should still put her through college.

You owe it to her.

Did you give any consideration to my last post? Why have you not gone for counselling, yet you've suggested that she should. You don't speak of your wife in a very positive light at all. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you talked to her the way you are talking about her and her family here, I can honestly say I can see why she took the kids and left you!

You focus an awful lot on "status!" Everything that you have mentioned, centers around education, money, and you...you...you! You haven't told us ANYTHING good about your wife! You haven't said if she a genuine person, a caring person, a wonderful mother, a great caretaker...etc. All we have heard is how uneducated she and her family are. Do you think it matters to us how successful your family has been, or all of the degrees that you all have? At the end of the day, none of that matters if you have such contempt for someone who has less of an education than you do. You really do make it sound like your wife and her family are beneath you!

You made references to lumberjacks and people from Arkansas in a very negative way. You better bow down and thank those lumberjacks for making it possible to have the paper to write out your 6 figure pay cheque, and you damn well better thank that "uneducated" Arkansas girl for bearing your children and mothering them!

Yes you do sound "cold and calculating," because that is the way you are being! You are doing this at the expense of your own CHILDREN! For that you should be ashamed! What are you teaching your children? You are teaching them that if you are angry with their mother, that they have to pay for it! 40% of your salary is the least you can do for them, because the morals you are teaching their young impressionable minds will linger.

I believe you need to take the focus off of your wife leaving you, and focus on what you need to do to make yourself a better person. That is likely the only way she will come back. If she doesn't, well then deal with what is in front of you like a man. Stop villifying your wife and talking down upon her. She is the mother of your children. You picked her!

I'm sure you aren't going to like my words, and that is fine with me, but if you really want some help, you need to take a good look in the mirror first.

EDIT: This was written before I saw that you had quoted me and answered.

I appreciate your honesty, truly. I have been for counseling and was meeting with a psychologist for almost a year right before we moved here in October in 2007 (I was depressed and worried that I wouldn't be able to support my family after graduation... I found my current job and moved but the psychologist felt I had made some real progress and it was fine to end the sessions.). I've lived in Arkansas for years now, and though there are some positive aspects I can also understand why we're so far behind and one of the least progressive places in the U.S. (Mike Huckabee once referred to Arkansas as being like a third-world country, and I like the Huckster!). I guess it takes living here to understand the ironies.

I only wish I had a six-figure paycheck. That's part of the reason I'm resentful of the power structure here as well... no one wants to pay their employees... I'm in the bottom 10% for my field and education level and that is not likely to change in a state that had their school funding formula declared "unconstitutional & inadequate."

I did state why I was attracted to her initially. She was young, vibrant, beautiful, driving, and seemed to want something out of life. She was compassionate and loving, but over the past few years she's grown hateful and mean. I am sorry for being cold and calculating but I have to eat and I'd like to have good enough credit to buy a home eventually; she's ruined our finances. In fact, I can't even afford to keep our rental home and now have to move into a single bedroom apartment because she quit her job and left me with every bill we have (70K in total debt, and my income has been cut in half now). It ticks me off that I've worked so hard to provide for all of us and she threw it away due to emotional issues that I believe could have been worked out; she wouldn't go to counseling with me or anything, and I was quite willing! Six years of college and working full-time, and all I asked her was for a few months to get our finances in order. I begged her to stay at her job so that at least she could leave with some kind of order. As of now, our credit is going to be ruined because neither of us can pay the bills like we had been. My life is being ruined and I've worked extremely long and tedious to improve it. So yes, I'm extremely angry and hurt and feel there is nothing I can do. Of course I want to save my marriage, but how can I do that when she'll have nothing to do with me?

The 70K in loans obviously wasn't for a house, so is it your college loans?

If the kids aren't in school when they should be, and she's the custodial parent, then report her for truancy.

In the US, kids have to be in school up to a certain age (which varies by state). This is LAW.

Honestly, though--it doesn't sound like you're making any effort at all to make your marriage work.

Good luck with your degree--hope it keeps you warm at night.

What do you suggest I do to try and make it work? She left and rarely talks to me. When she does it's often not about anything other than business... every once in a while she talks about general things or emails little clues about what was going on in her head. I'm open to suggestions, people. That's why I'm here...

The 70K in loans obviously wasn't for a house, so is it your college loans?

56K in student loans. 15K in credit cards from before I started my job and we were both working full-time (my salary just didn't pay enough by itself; it took the two of us to make a living). I also have 9K on my vehicle but that's only in my name and I'm paying for it myself. Still the 15K is $450 a month, rent was $800 a month, car is $236, and student loans are $600; try paying that on $1,600 take-home pay... it doesn't work. That's part of why I'm so furious about this. She's ruined us financially by leaving and quit her job... it sounds really irresponsible to me. At least stick around for a few months and work but she just had to leave...

I just got whiplash, you just did a 180 on us.

Now you've been to counselling?

I find this a bit difficult to stomach. You're life is ruined? What about hers? What about the kids.

You honestly think that you've done nothing, but honey, it takes two to make a marriage work, and it takes two to destroy it. I don't believe that you're as innocent in all this as you are trying to lead us to believe.

She doesn't measure up to your expectations, we got that in just the few posts you've placed here, I'm sure she knows it too. I wouldn't be able to live with a man that thinks I'm not worthy of him because of my family and education.

How can you get her back? You can't, she either decides to give your marriage another shot, or she doesn't. It's out of your hands.

GreatBig, After reading all your posts, I'm with Starbuck. And more, actually. You come across in your posts as profoundly selfish and arrogant.

I don't have the impression that you have been supportive of your wife or given her the chance to go through school. You lord it over her with your own education, which you apparently got while married to her, as she slaved away at low-end jobs, yet you appear not to have made room for Her to get any education.

By your own account, when you were together, you barely saw each other, and she hardly saw her children. What kind of life is that? What "plan" of yours justifies decisions like that? There's more to life than money. You imply there's another man, but present no evidence. You dis her and constantly dis her family. We understand that you feel angry, but this is more than anger. It's total lack of respect. And you talk about "babysitting" your own kids. It is physically impossible for a parent to be a babysitter. You are a parent, not a babysitter.

Why is she working 9-hour shifts at Penny's instead of taking classes toward a degree like you? In 12 years, there was never time for her to go back to school? In all that time, it's no surprise that she entertained a lot of different ideas of what she would do if she ever got the chance. In 12 years you got a BA and an MA and a bigger income. In 12 years, what has she got? Zip. And now you want to punish her for not sticking it out for even longer? I'm betting she spent all that free time before she had to go to work at 3 pm shopping for groceries and doing your laundry. I'm betting she's tired of taking care of your needs and being told what a zero she is.

And now you are quitting your job and going for MORE education? It sounds to me like you are competing with your siblings instead of focusing on your family. Forget the PhD. for now. Do it after your kids have your education or better. Doing it now is greedy and selfish, no matter how you rationalize it. (What good is your imagined bigger income and fanciful life in California going to do your kids after they are already grown up?) I think you are going back to school so you won't have to pay child support.

Keep your job and support your wife so she can go to school, finally, and care for her kids (if you won't). If you start cherishing her and treating her with reverence and respect, she MIGHT come back. But even if she doesn't, you should still put her through college.

You owe it to her.

No, there was no way to put her through college with three children. It was physically impossible. Also, she wouldn't commit to any particular field of study so until she knew what she really wanted to do I didn't see any point in switching out and letting her go instead. No, she didn't slave away at a job while I was in school. I slaved away at a job (sometimes two) while I was in school. She stayed at home with the children. While both of us worked, I did the grocery shopping, and I took care of 90% of the domestic duties (to include laundry). She would hang out around the house on the phone talking to her friends for hours on end before going to work. Also, on her days off she'd go hang out with her friends while I had to stay at home and take care of the children; I never had a moment to myself. I was working more hours AND taking care of business at home, so please don't think she was a "desperate housewife." I'd have to use my lunch break to take care of any business (pay rent, pay bills, ect) because she was being too lazy and complained if I asked her to do much of anything, even though she didn't go into work until 3 p.m. It was OUR plan, not just mine. I told her I would support whatever field of study she chose. We both wanted to buy the house we (I) currently rent, and needed the two incomes to qualify for the mortgage. I figured we'd work for a year or so, pay down or off our debts, and then she could go (practically for free since I work there). It's only going to take another 3-4 years to finish my Ph.D. in psychology. If I wait until my children have a master's degree I'll be near retirement, so I really think that's unfair and not even very practical. In four years my children will be 12 and 14, and so yes my increased income WILL benefit them. If I wait until they have a master's, I'll wait 16 years at the minimum and be in my 50's. How can that be justified as opposed to finishing it up in a couple years? I have to respectfully disagree.

I do also agree that there is more to life than money, but when a state university system pays its professonals so little that their health insurance premiums cost 25% of the salary, and the salary is so low your family still qualifies for food stamps, it's difficult to justify your statement. Yes, there are more important things, but when you're paycheck is so small it doesn't cover basic living expenses there are few things as miserable as that.

Have the two of you gone to a FINANCIAL counselor?

It sounds like there are resentments on both sides, stemming for the lack of money and the WAY specific goals were being worked toward.

I know you say it was "OUR" plan---but I also know that sometimes I just get frustrated with my husband enough to let him call HIS plan "OUR" plan--even though I completely disagree with it, he's not hearing my disagreements as valid.

ASK her if she wants to save the marriage. If she does, then be willing to go further into debt to do so, because there's no way you're going to save it without the help of both a financial counselor and a marriage counselor.

PS--My sister put herself through college with FIVE kids. It CAN be done. You just don't get to work the jobs you WANT to work until it is done.

I slaved away at a job (sometimes two) while I was in school. She stayed at home with the children. While both of us worked, I did the grocery shopping, and I took care of 90% of the domestic duties (to include laundry). She would hang out around the house on the phone talking to her friends for hours on end before going to work. Also, on her days off she'd go hang out with her friends while I had to stay at home and take care of the children; I never had a moment to myself

Did you ever tell her that you didn't like your lot in life? Did you ever say that you're doing everything and she's not pitching in? Did you two communicate, or did you hint at it, or just call her lazy, unmotivated etc. without telling her that you were frustrated.

Passive aggressive doesn't work, it usually just pushes people away. Perhaps you were being a bit too passive aggressive. Just a suggestion.

I miss my wife so much that I'd do almost anything to have her come back and reunite our family. I'd go to counseling, take a second job so she can stay home


Than do it. Go to counselling - for yourself, not for her, and maybe take on that 2nd job - for yourself, not for her.

Nothing will be achieved through anger & bitterness. Help yourself & then maybe you can help her. It sounds like she has issues.

No, there was no way to put her through college with three children. It was physically impossible. Also, she wouldn't commit to any particular field of study so until she knew what she really wanted to do I didn't see any point in switching out and letting her go instead.

I'm still not completely convinced, although glad to know you were doing housework. Good for you.

But you got through college with three children. Why should it be impossible for another person to do it? And as for not knowing what she wanted to major in before she went, lots of college students don't know when they first start. You figure it out as you go along. Some people know, but not everyone. I've know people who switched interests several times and ended up doing well.

Have the two of you gone to a FINANCIAL counselor?

It sounds like there are resentments on both sides, stemming for the lack of money and the WAY specific goals were being worked toward.

I know you say it was "OUR" plan---but I also know that sometimes I just get frustrated with my husband enough to let him call HIS plan "OUR" plan--even though I completely disagree with it, he's not hearing my disagreements as valid.

ASK her if she wants to save the marriage. If she does, then be willing to go further into debt to do so, because there's no way you're going to save it without the help of both a financial counselor and a marriage counselor.

PS--My sister put herself through college with FIVE kids. It CAN be done. You just don't get to work the jobs you WANT to work until it is done.

Thanks for everyone's feedback. I do like how this board is being honest and forthright, as persons (such as myself) in these situations can easily become mired in our own emotions/situations. Objectivity is the name... and I do appreciate it.

I've asked her about saving our marriage. She said she doesn't care enough anymore to try so I guess we'll just have to see. Like with any problem, admitting there is one and trying to be open-minded enough to see it (and see things from other perspectives) is the first step to solving any problem. I'm deeply hurt and angry. My wife was my best friend until recently; sorry if I sound arrogant but I haven't felt very respected either.

Look, it might sound to some like I'm merely trying to evade child support, but that is simply not true. The problem is that my income will be so low I will not be able to live on it; I'll be living in a cardboard box or travel trailer (are you willing to suffer on $900 a month after deductions? That's what I'd be left with! No one in their right mind would live like that... not in the U.S. and especially if their wife is carrying on with someone else eventually).

Look, it might sound to some like I'm merely trying to evade child support, but that is simply not true. The problem is that my income will be so low I will not be able to live on it; I'll be living in a cardboard box or travel trailer (are you willing to suffer on $900 a month after deductions? That's what I'd be left with! No one in their right mind would live like that... not in the U.S. and especially if their wife is carrying on with someone else eventually).

Child support is not an option, you're responsible to support the kids you helped bring into the world, even if it means living in a cardboard box. Sorry, reality check.

You asked if you should suffer? Well, should your kids? They didn't choose this, it's not their fault.

I'm still not completely convinced, although glad to know you were doing housework. Good for you.

But you got through college with three children. Why should it be impossible for another person to do it? And as for not knowing what she wanted to major in before she went, lots of college students don't know when they first start out. You figure it out as you go along. Some people know, but not everyone. I've know people who switched interests several times and ended up doing well.


I'm saying it would have been impossible for BOTH of us to go at the same time. If someone already knows what they want to do AND has a full academic scholarship to go, it makes more sense for that person to attend than the other who doesn't know what they want to do and has grades that are too low to qualify for financial aid (1.67 gpa when she last went).

I deal with at-risk students as a profession, and I can tell you that less than 10% of all single mothers who attend college ever complete. If you work in higher education you also know that some students have the drive to succeed while others simply don't. One has to have the tenacity and temerity to deal with everything life throws at them AND complete school. Single parents have it tough. In my opinion, after 13 years of experience with her, my wife doesn't have the drive to do this. For our children's sake (and her own), of course I hope I'm wrong but I wouldn't be doing this for a living if I didn't have the ability to "read" people and determine which students are likely to succeed and which ones aren't. Of course, I want all of them to succeed.

Child support is not an option, you're responsible to support the kids you helped bring into the world, even if it means living in a cardboard box. Sorry, reality check.

You asked if you should suffer? Well, should your kids? They didn't choose this, it's not their fault.

No it's not their fault. Their mother made a hasty decision (quit her own job! She doesn't even have one now... how responsible is that?), and now I'm stuck taking up the slack to a woman who doesn't want to be around or even work on our relationship? Of course I'll support my children, but what I'm saying is the program I'm applying for pays a stipend that is just as much as my take-home pay. If I'm going to be poor and pay support, I might as well get a Ph.D. and yes my kids will benefit when I'm done in a few short years. They'll still be young enough to enjoy it and benefit.

the program I'm applying for pays a stipend that is just as much as my take-home pay. If I'm going to be poor and pay support, I might as well get a Ph.D. and yes my kids will benefit when I'm done in a few short years. They'll still be young enough to enjoy it and benefit.

Plus, if you are back in school, you can defer paying off the college loans. Yes?

Plus, if you are back in school, you can defer paying off the college loans. Yes?

Yes, which would help out. If my salary wasn't so pitiful (or the salaries for most professionals in this state), I'd not even consider leaving. But when a doctoral stipend pays out a hundred dollars less than I bring home working, one has to wonder how much sense it will make. Of course I'll still pay support if they do in fact stay with her, which has yet to be played out. I've no problem accepting the fact that I have changes to make, and relationships over the years can and will distort our perspectives. It is very helpful to hear that I am sounding arrogant from someone else, because that is also one of her complaints (she says I didn't used to be that way, and she missed the humble and empathetic me). However, I also feel like I was working much harder to maintain our family (both domestically and financially), and she just didn't care anymore. I'll take everyone's feedback and regardless of my marital outcome try to better myself. Sometimes relationships need to end, but it hurts like hell when you lose someone who at one time was your best friend, lover, and life partner; and she was.

She quit her job and moved in with her mother (4 hours away) while taking the three children with her... is relying completely off her mother and step-father.
In other words, she didn't take off to raise the kids alone in her own space, but is still relying on someone else to help. With only a h.s. diploma, her job prospects, especially in these depressed times, are not good.


in a small, rural state
I have an Internet friend in MV, AR. He's well-educated with several master's degrees and was drawn to live in the Ozarks because of the caves and the area's beauty. The low standard of living also appealed to him because he had recently retired from a Navy career with a good pension. Despite all that, his loudest and longest-time lament is the lack of intellectual stimulation, so I understand what you are saying about that, greatbignow.

I've read through this thread several times and have kept up with new comments. It seems the biggest problem in your marriage (as it is in so many marriages!) is communication and the resulting compromise. I would love to hear your wife's side of the story and then try to find the places where the two of you could agree and then compromise over the rest.

If I were you, I would lie low regarding her but regularly send cards, notes, and letters to the kids, call them, etc. They are the victims in this whole thing. I'm hoping your wife will realize her mom and step-dad do not want to give her a handout (or do they?? ) and will pitch in as much as she can around the house. Maybe the old saw, "You can't go home again," will prove to be true, and the two of you will begin some honest communications.

In other words, she didn't take off to raise the kids alone in her own space, but is still relying on someone else to help. With only a h.s. diploma, her job prospects, especially in these depressed times, are not good.




Thank you for your response. Yes, I'd like to hear her part of the story as well, because of course I know there are two sides. My mother-in-law, whom I have a good relationship with, stated that she thought it likely [my wife] would realize she has made a rash and terrible mistake in a few months. I realize my posts don't portray it, but I've loved my wife and enjoyed her company like no one else until the past six months. I just can't imagine being married to anyone else (or sleeping with anyone else), and before this I trusted her more than any other individual in my life at any time. My entire adulthood has been spent with her. I would have trusted her with any amount of money, and I still have her down as the recipient of my life insurance and retirement fund should something happen to me... I'll keep that arrangement until we officially divorce (if we actually do, God forbid). If something did happen to me right now, I'd prefer she take whatever insurance and retirement monies available to support the children anyway... where else would I put it?

she thought it likely [my wife] would realize she has made a rash and terrible mistake in a few months.
I'm slogging along next to your mother-in-law. Your wife is looking for value for herself, someone to appreciate her to the point where she feels young and carefree again. She wants instant gratification, she wants to be happy NOW. It's like going on a diet. No one wants to actually do all the work of eating differently and exercising, but would rather just cut to the chase and weigh less in the morning.

Would she be willing to take the Myers-Briggs and an interest test to find out who she is and what career possibilities there are for her? Most community colleges offer that sort of thing for free to any county resident.

I'm slogging along next to your mother-in-law. Your wife is looking for value for herself, someone to appreciate her to the point where she feels young and carefree again. She wants instant gratification, she wants to be happy NOW. It's like going on a diet. No one wants to actually do all the work of eating differently and exercising, but would rather just cut to the chase and weigh less in the morning.

Would she be willing to take the Myers-Briggs and an interest test to find out who she is and what career possibilities there are for her? Most community colleges offer that sort of thing for free to any county resident.


She's saying that nursing is what she'll study if she stays there and goes to school. If she's still up there by August, then she's saying it will likely be permanent. Sayings like that make me wonder if she'll eventually come back, but I have to tell you it's heart-wrenching to live here by myself and await her decision. She also tells me there is no one else, but on her Facebook profile there were some "interview" questions that she put some odd answers to... here were the questions and the board can give me some feedback.

Question #1.

Would you like to be a porn star?

(her response)
"I am with my honey, we're so hot together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"


Question #2.
Who do you respect?

"Heinrich Himmler and my honey."

(yes, you might think Nazi leaders are odd figures to admire... she's into German WWII history... I don't even know where to begin with that one)

Question #205.

Do you want to get married?

"Do I hate myself that much? I'm desperately trying to get out!!!!!"

So, to the poster who asked what my evidence was, I guess this is it. I almost looked at this like an ink-blot test... she put her impressions on these questions. Ok, one more thing. When I put up my profile on Facebook, it asked if I was single, married, in a relationship, etc. I put down married and it asked to whom, to which I answered my spouse's name. She blew up and asked why I did that because she knew we were still married and she felt I was trying to smother her. It was completely innocent and I had no idea the Facebook profile question would ask her for confirmation. Ok, please follow my logic here and tell me if I'm off base or what...

If that question threw her off her rocker...

She said that there is no one else at this time, and has denied any affairs. However, she stated that the interview questions were "a joke" and that she wasn't serious about any of them. I asked her who her "honey" was to which she replied, "Well, that WAS you." I'm not sure if she slipped up and accidentally responded in a way that "let the cat out" or if she is really joking but given her anger at the marriage confirmation I don't think the questions were a joke. Also, given her response to the marriage question, which was clearly what she is dealing with right now. So, that is what gives me reason to wonder... or, as C&C Music Factory once sang, "Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm...." And so, I put my question out to the board... am I being logical about this? She has since then erased all the interview questions. I called and emailed her and stated that if there was in fact someone else that I was not interested in any chance at reconciliation and we could begin divorce proceedings... after denying any affairs, she erased them. That is also where I stand. I'll take her back until she's had someone else... after that I'm not going to even try. So, I don't know what to think. It could be nothing, but I have to wonder. Honest feedback please.

am I being logical about this?
Nope! She's feeling her oats (read: acting like the teenager she wishes she still was). Stop it with the interrogations via email and phone. Instead whisper sweet nothings and court her. She's pushing your buttons (but don't let on you know that). If you need advice on how to be romantic, holler. We'll all help.

When you talk with her (remember, no accusations or anything negative or personally challenging), ask her what is the one thing she would love for you to change about yourself. Then let us know what she said.

Nope! She's feeling her oats (read: acting like the teenager she wishes she still was). Stop it with the interrogations via email and phone. Instead whisper sweet nothings and court her. She's pushing your buttons (but don't let on you know that). If you need advice on how to be romantic, holler. We'll all help.

Ok, thanks. It can be so difficult for someone in this situation to accurately gauge responses, and I readily admit that deficiency. I'd love to whisper sweet nothings and court. I've been going back to the gym because after a year and a half of working in an office I neglected working out at the gym. I'm not fat by any means and still retain some definition, but not like when I did the protein shakes, creatine, and weights on a daily basis. I do want to look good for her, and it's so sad when I go to bed because even though she's gone I never roll over and take "her side." It's like I've gotten so used to her being there I still only take my half of the bed, unconsciously. That's just it, sometimes when I speak with her she'd just start talking about daily things, almost like she's talking to a friend... When I get a minute, I'm going to cut and paste an email she sent me this week... it's the first email that really details what she dislikes about me now. Good news is that they're nothing I can't change or am not willing to change. Please make no mistake, I love my wife and before things went downhill she was my best friend. I want her to be happy as well, though.

even though she's gone I never roll over and take "her side." It's like I've gotten so used to her being there I still only take my half of the bed, unconsciously.
That's a sweet nothing. Tell her that.

When I get a minute, I'm going to cut and paste an email she sent me this week...it's the first email that really details what she dislikes about me now.
Cool! They might be some of the same things we've said we dislike about you. When I was in grad school, the psych profs told us that if something a client is doing annoys us, we can pretty well figure that same thing is annoying the rest of that client's world. There's even a name for it...

When you talk with her (remember, no accusations or anything negative or personally challenging), ask her what is the one thing she would love for you to change about yourself. Then let us know what she said.

Ok, I sent that question. I also sent a cut and paste of the women & infidelity book website. She lists some of the stages and signs that women go through during their "midlife crisis" which is what I think is happening. I don't want to lose my family because of this. Here is a copy of the email she sent me, it might also offer some clues. There are a few strong statements in here, but I'm asking for honesty which is why I'm here.

Here it is.

Let me break it down for you. I "flew off at you" because you were/are ALWAYS at me. You did just grill me about the in a relationship thing on here, if you will recall. I explained it then. I checked that box because we are still married, even though you'd never know it from the way you treated me at the end. The very next day, as if it weren't enough, I received that relationship request. Yes, I may have gotten significantly irritated. You just never stop. Even now. Yes, I do get hateful and rude. Now I finally have some peace from your continual barrage. I am beginning to be happy and kindly like I was when I first met you. I have changed so much over the years. I hate who and what I have become with you. I feel horribly warped. That has slowly been changing now that I am not around the never-ending stress and tension that I felt. You are failing to understand for some reason that it was always something with you. I feel that it's totally fair and accurate to say that neither one of us was what the other wanted. Can you not see that over the years we have both changed?! Not at all on the same level or regarding the same things. All I wanted was for you to finally grow up; when you did you removed all the fun things about yourself that I liked. You became a y, hateful, anxiety-ridden old man that no one can stand to be around!! Yes, you did assume more of the domestic duties, but I wanted to do those. Not have you take them from me. Some of them were not done that well, in my opinion. I was forced to work my off and keep completely ed up hours and STILL you did nothing but and complain and tell me everything bad/unsatisfactory that I was doing!! You'd not tell me how you appreciated MY sacrifice; you'd just go on and on about how it was never enough. Don't you see, all the monitary comfort you were offering was at a terrible cost. You can't buy me off anymore. It became not worth dealing with you and listening to you complaining constantly!! You always tell me everything that you think I cannot do. I am SO tired of you telling me that I cannot do anything for myself!! You used to tear me down so much that I really wanted to die. Do you get that?! I used to hate living because it was all about the nothing that I could do effectively. I also do not want the girls to see that and think that it is a real relationship. I do not want [our son] to grow up and treat his future wife that way either. You still do not see that it was ALL about you. I can't believe that you'd just give up on the children like that. They are always yours and mine. You are just throwing them away. Nice. That's mature. You hurt them so much by not being there. They are not traumatized, hate to break it to you. They miss you, but they are doing very well. I hope that you'd not turn your back on them. It is up to you. It is not about you and I. NO ONE ever was or could replace my Daddy. He was always there for my brother and I; that is why we love and need him so much to this day. HE did not allow anyone to take his place. I would be bringing them down to you. It's not you catering to my schedule!! God, you are so immature and stubborn sometimes. It is not about how you or I feel. IT IS ALL ABOUT THE CHILDREN!! You don't seem to get that. You are selfishly focused totally on your own hurt. You have hurt so many people over the years, apparently you have forgotten that. You have become so arrogant and conceited. That is another thing I cannot abide. You did not used to be this way. You had a humility and empathetic way about you that used to make possible my forgiving you every time you did something totally ing moronic no matter how bad it was. You have hurt me so much over the years. You can NEVER know the pain and humiliation I have suffered because of YOU!! I hope that you are someday repaid for all the terrible things you did to me. That is how I've grown to hate you. My future plans do not include you either but for the children. When you can grow up enough to be a man like they need then contact me. Your whining is disgusting and you may do so all alone.
DANIELLE.

Maybe you should examine yourself sometime, the way you are acting is not worthy of them!!

I also sent a cut and paste of the women & infidelity book website.

NB.
"You just never stop. Even now. Yes, I do get hateful and rude. Now I finally have some peace from your continual barrage."

These two statements are related.

If you send a "friendly" email in which you, at the same time, accuse your wife of infidelity--don't expect to get a friendly answer back.

I don't think she's seeing anyone; you have simply driven her away. I see someone who was desperate for some autonomy. My two cents.

NB.

These two statements are related.

If you send a "friendly" email in which you, at the same time, accuse your wife of infidelity--don't expect to get a friendly answer back.

I don't think she's seeing anyone; you have simply driven her away. I see someone who was desperate for some autonomy. My two cents.


Woops.

Maybe I should have rephrased how I posted that. It's about infidelity, but it also discusses why women grow dissatisfied and leave long-term relationships. I used to do quite a few drugs and drink when I was younger (10 years ago when I played heavy metal music and went around playing shows a lot). She just wanted me to grow up, but also thought I was "fun." Now that we had a family and I finished school, I grew up and got a real job... found responsibility, etc. However, I did complain a lot. I never had any fun or time for anything I wanted to do... anyway, I'm willing to give her space, and don't want her to be unhappy. I thought I'd finally became what she wanted in a dad and husband... guess I was wrong. Yes, I used to be a lot more fun. Growing older can do that to you though...

NB.

These two statements are related.

If you send a "friendly" email in which you, at the same time, accuse your wife of infidelity--don't expect to get a friendly answer back.

I don't think she's seeing anyone; you have simply driven her away. I see someone who was desperate for some autonomy. My two cents.

Thanks for the feedback as well; it's the only way I can improve myself and have any chance at building a relationship with her and our family again. I think for now she just needs her own space, which I have no problem doing. Maybe I should get into the doctoral program and we can see how it goes over the next few years... I don't really know what to do at this point... wish I did.

It doesn't have to! Being a dad doesn't have to mean carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders and being a grouch. There's a happy medium between all work and all play. I suspect that's what she was hoping for.

If you sent her a website about infidelity, with your history of criticizing her, she'd be forgiven for taking it as implicit criticism. She writes quite well for someone with minimal formal training.

Now I finally have some peace from your continual barrage. I am beginning to be happy and kindly like I was when I first met you. I have changed so much over the years. I hate who and what I have become with you. I feel horribly warped. That has slowly been changing now that I am not around the never-ending stress and tension that I felt. You are failing to understand for some reason that it was always something with you... It became not worth dealing with you and listening to you complaining constantly!! You always tell me everything that you think I cannot do. I am SO tired of you telling me that I cannot do anything for myself!! You used to tear me down so much that I really wanted to die. Do you get that?! I used to hate living because it was all about the nothing that I could do effectively.
Bingo! We all should get an honorary Psy.D. Like I said --

They might be some of the same things we've said we dislike about you. When I was in grad school, the psych profs told us that if something a client is doing annoys us, we can pretty well figure that same thing is annoying the rest of that client's world. There's even a name for it...
Okay, now where do you go from here? No more accusations. No more haranguing. Could you arrange your life so she could come home with the kids and start to take nursing classes? Is there a community college near where you live? She could take core courses inexpensively. They might even have a certificate program for LPN or CNA to give her some credentials and experience as she goes to school. I would think at least some RN programs offer classes as distance learning that she can do at home on her computer. What I'm trying to say is that there are all sorts of ways to slice a watermelon. Would she be able to go to school, financially and according to your ideas of things?

No more accusations. No more haranguing.

I agree. But it's not that easy to break a habit like that. It really takes focus, discipline, and practice, as well as commitment. It will take months of self restraint and looking on the bright side. Definitely not impossible though.


Could you arrange your life so she could come home with the kids and start to take nursing classes? Is there a community college near where you live? She could take core courses inexpensively.

Positively makes my heart glow just thinking about it! I hope this can work out. Now I'm all ready to cheer Greatbignow on...

I agree. But it's not that easy to break a habit like that. It really takes focus, discipline, and practice, as well as commitment. It will take months of self restraint and looking on the bright side. Definitely not impossible though.
But now he has US here to help him and to make him accountable. Plus, he has all that psych under his belt and should know how best to use it (on himself). He will be his own best client.


Positively makes my heart glow just thinking about it! I hope this can work out. Now I'm all ready to cheer Greatbignow on...
Will she come back with that carrot dangling and his promise to change? We certainly could help with that part too.

Will she come back with that carrot dangling and his promise to change?

Some of us are on the edges of our seats...

Whether she comes back or not, be a good dad and let the rest work itself out. Her email explained a lot so hope your paying attention.

Originally Posted by greatbignow https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/amhd_imgs/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/relationships/wife-kids-left-302478-6.html#post1490338)
I also sent a cut and paste of the women & infidelity book website.

The basic problem in your life is in trying to fix her and analyze her, you neglected to see yourself through realistic eyes, and fix yourself.



I don't understand this... why leave a husband who cooks 5 days a week and is willing to help you make it through school? I don't think she's likely to finish college raising three kids by herself,


You may have thought you were doing the right thing, but you weren't, not only are you putting her down, but patronizing her also. What's worse, you were not listening, or paying attention to any of her real needs, just what YOU thought was important. That has to change, whether she will take you back or not.

Your focus should be on your children, not her, as you make some adjustments to your attitude.

I should add that most (or probably all) of us have been in your shoes at some point, realizing we want to change how we deal with people close to us...

Thanks for the feedback, I do appreciate it. I don't plan on abandoning my children, but I do want her to feel how difficult it is for single parents. Hopefully the reality will wake her up and we can try to keep our family intact.
I hate to bring up a comment from several pages back but this comment wreaks of selfishness. It sound as if you are, in effect, using your children to get your wife to come back to you.

QUOTING GREATBIGNOW::You always tell me everything that you think I cannot do. I am SO tired of you telling me that I cannot do anything for myself!! You used to tear me down so much that I really wanted to die. Do you get that?! I used to hate living because it was all about the nothing that I could do effectively. I also do not want the girls to see that and think that it is a real relationship. I do not want [our son] to grow up and treat his future wife that way either.
You still do not see that it was ALL about you. I can't believe that you'd just give up on the children like that. They are always yours and mine. You are just throwing them away. You hurt them so much by not being there. It is not about how you or I feel. IT IS ALL ABOUT THE CHILDREN!! You don't seem to get that. You are selfishly focused totally on your own hurt. You have hurt so many people over the years, apparently you have forgotten that. You have hurt me so much over the years. You can NEVER know the pain and humiliation I have suffered because of YOU!! I hope that you are someday repaid for all the terrible things you did to me. That is how I've grown to hate you. ::END QUOTE (sorry, something went wrong while quoting)


Okay, do you see key words in here? I do! I don't know what your wife is speaking of when she talks about all of the hurt that you've caused, but it was obviously very substantial! Fess up! We can't help if we don't understand. I can see a great deal of hurt coming from her words. Most people in a communicative marriage don't say things like they HATED living and wished they would "DIE!!" There was obviously some very SERIOUS issues in your marriage. She is done with you, and I can tell that!

Unless you take the focus off her and what you see wrong with HER, you will never ever get your family back together. I'm not so sure you should do that anyway, at least at this point! I hear MANY things in your wife's words. I hear FEAR, PAIN, ANGER, Despair, RESENTMENT, and DISCONECTION! These are all SYMPTOMS of the problem, not "THE PROBLEM."

You need to put your money where your mouth is. You can't change what you don't acknowledge! You need to do the leg work! Right now your main focus is getting your wife and family back. You need to be prepared for that not to happen. What your focus NEEDS to be is you, and how you ran this thing off into the ditch!

If you want to show integrity, and salvage any semblance of a relationship with your wife and children, do what you need to do. Let your wife gain back some of her self respect and dignity, support your children both financially and emotionally, no matter the price tag! Do the work you need to do, to show you are worthy of another chance. Then and only then will you have another chance at a loving relationship with your wife and children... whether that be a formidable divorce, or a reconciliation!

Bingo! We all should get an honorary Psy.D. Like I said --

Okay, now where do you go from here? No more accusations. No more haranguing. Could you arrange your life so she could come home with the kids and start to take nursing classes? Is there a community college near where you live? She could take core courses inexpensively. They might even have a certificate program for LPN or CNA to give her some credentials and experience as she goes to school. I would think at least some RN programs offer classes as distance learning that she can do at home on her computer. What I'm trying to say is that there are all sorts of ways to slice a watermelon. Would she be able to go to school, financially and according to your ideas of things?

Greetings,

Ok, I can go along with your recommendations. Yes, the university I work at has a nursing program that I'd definitely restructure our lives financially for her to go if she were to come back (I'd get a smaller house and take a second job). When she was here, she didn't want to attend for nursing which is why I don't understand what the sudden change is for.

It doesn't have to! Being a dad doesn't have to mean carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders and being a grouch. There's a happy medium between all work and all play. I suspect that's what she was hoping for.

If you sent her a website about infidelity, with your history of criticizing her, she'd be forgiven for taking it as implicit criticism. She writes quite well for someone with minimal formal training.

Well, she reads a lot and I've never said she wasn't unintelligent. It's just that from my experience with her I believe she has trouble staying on task for long term goals.

Cool! They might be some of the same things we've said we dislike about you. When I was in grad school, the psych profs told us that if something a client is doing annoys us, we can pretty well figure that same thing is annoying the rest of that client's world. There's even a name for it............


Wasn't that transference? I think so...


Well, that's also why I'm here. I know I have defects of character like everyone else, but I'm willing to work on them.

QUOTING GREATBIGNOW::You always tell me everything that you think I cannot do. I am SO tired of you telling me that I cannot do anything for myself!!!!! You used to tear me down so much that I really wanted to die. Do you get that??!! I used to hate living because it was all about the nothing that I could do effectively. I also do not want the girls to see that and think that it is a real relationship. I do not want [our son] to grow up and treat his future wife that way either.
You still do not see that it was ALL about you. I can't believe that you'd just give up on the children like that. They are always yours and mine. You are just throwing them away. You hurt them so much by not being there. It is not about how you or I feel. IT IS ALL ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!!!! You don't seem to get that. You are selfishly focused totally on your own hurt. You have hurt so many people over the years, apparently you have forgotten that. You have hurt me so much over the years. You can NEVER know the pain and humiliation I have suffered because of YOU!!!!! I hope that you are someday repaid for all the terrible things you did to me. That is how I've grown to hate you. ::END QUOTE (sorry, something went wrong while quoting)


Okay, do you see key words in here? I do! I don't know what your wife is speaking of when she talks about all of the hurt that you've caused, but it was obviously very substantial! Fess up! We can't help if we don't understand. I can see a great deal of hurt coming from her words. Most people in a communicative marriage don't say things like they HATED living and wished they would "DIE!!" There was obviously some very SERIOUS issues in your marriage. She is done with you, and I can tell that!

Unless you take the focus off of her and what you see wrong with HER, you will never ever get your family back together. I'm not so sure you should do that anyway, at least at this point! I hear MANY things in your wifes words. I hear FEAR, PAIN, ANGER, DISPAIR, RESENTMENT, and DISCONECTION! These are all SYMPTOMS of the problem, not "THE PROBLEM."

You need to put your money where your mouth is. You can't change what you don't acknowledge! You need to do the leg work! Right now your main focus is getting your wife and family back. You need to be prepared for that not to happen. What your focus NEEDS to be is you, and how you ran this thing off into the ditch!

If you want to show integrity, and salvage any semblance of a relationship with your wife and children, do what you need to do. Let your wife gain back some of her self respect and dignity, support your children both financially and emotionally, no matter the price tag! Do the work you need to do, to show you are worthy of another chance. Then and only then will you have another chance at a loving relationship with your wife and children...whether that be a formidable divorce, or a reconciliation!

Ok, a little bio on the past. I did drugs and drank alcohol when I first met my wife (I was playing drums in a heavy-metal band), and she did recreationally but I ended up with a problem. Earlier on in our marriage I would stay gone for days, particularly when the first child came along; I wasn't ready for the commitment of children OR marriage, but she wanted to marry and I did love her so I went along with it. After working in a factory for five years and trying to attend college part-time, I finally quit because I was completely burned out on the manual labor and at 23 I felt like I was 43 (repetitive motions). For a few years it was difficult financially, far more difficult than now because of the job market and my lack of education. The only experience I had was in factory work. So, I started school and obtained a job with a pharmacy. Here's where it gets dicey... you can imagine that someone with a drug problem should probably not work at a pharmacy. I started stealing pills and selling them for a hefty profit to other college students. After a year, I got caught and spent 7 months in a prison "boot camp" program... back up a bit... when I was 14 I got in trouble with some Xanax pills and my father put me in rehab for almost 2 years. It was called "Second Chance" in Memphis, TN and I have to say it saved my life and gave me the ability to tackle the kind of changes that needed to be made both then and now. Ruthless honesty, and learning how to deal with a horrid drug problem (even though I screwed up later, it's the only way I have been able to get where I am now instead of killing myself somehow). Ok, fast forward. I initially fled the state to escape prosecution... it was relatively easy because I worked for a cable TV company that moved to Oregon (and it paid a grand a week... more than I make now). Well, once I got up there the company went bankcrupt and I came back to face my charges (possession of the pills, and theft of the pills; would you believe having Oxycontin is a class Y felony.. just like assault or first-degree murder? That's another issue though... ). Ok, so I go through this "boot camp" program and come out 7 months later in awesome physical shape and ready to work on myself and my family. To her credit, my wife waited patiently and tells me to this day that I was far more difficult on her and the children than it was on me... I'm not sure about that one, and if you want to read about the Arkansas prison system read "Accomplices to the Crime." It has a prison system based on 17th century slavery... you work in the cotton fields... anyway, enough of that. In some ways I think that experience both ruined me and made me stronger. It's difficult for me to be happy anymore, and I feel a certain sense of dread and tension that wasn't there before... maybe that's some of the "lost youth & vitality" she speaks of. That's why I sought counseling during my graduate degree... it was so difficult to both forgive myself and come to grips with what had happened.

Ok, after release I obtained employment with an alcohol and drug abuse treatment center while attending my undergraduate full time. I'd like to think I made a difference in the lives of some of my clients. After my undergrad, I went to grad school on a full scholarship and worked for yet another counseling center for D&A until I completed my degree.

Since 2002 I've not had any drugs or alcohol, and I've been a committed family man. I felt like I'd hurt both my wife and children so much and I just wanted to make it up to them both financially and emotionally. I was so sorry for the way I had lived... drug addiction unfortunately runs in families as well... I came by it honestly (my great-grandfather was a morphine addict, my mother on heroine for years, and a slew of alcoholics too numerous to list, but please don't take this as my blaming others for my problem. I did it, but I've also been recovering and would like to think I'm an example of what someone can do even if they screw up and stay addicted for years). One other thing, in 2006 we had a home invasion. A man who would later be convicted for rape and numerous other attempted rapes came into our home near Christmas that year. He came in the door (which was unlocked because I had just come home) with a ski mask and a knife... looked at my wife's purse, which was near the door and had money sticking out of it, but he wasn't interested in her purse... he was interested in her. I was behind him and he didn't see me coming... I also went to the gym almost every day back then, and so I grabbed him and took the knife away from him. I can tell you I feared for my life, but the thought of someone trying to assault my wife and family that way, along with the instinctual drive to protect one's family (we see the same thing in primates whenever a predator is around... the females grab the children and run for cover, while the males prepare to fight whatever it is). He would have had to kill me before getting to her or our children... anyway, for months afterwards I wouldn't leave the house for anything but important functions, and I stopped going to the gym because I always went in the evening and I just have a fear now that it could happen again... I just so happened to be home that night because classes were out and I didn't want to go right then. Part of why I stay at home with my family all the time now... I still hate it when people come to the door as well. I also sought counseling for that issue at the same time I went for the other issue.

During my graduate studies, I still made time for my wife and I to have "alone" time. I took her to a popular resort town nearby for her birthday and our anniversary, and we went out to eat by ourselves once a week. Amazing how we remember specific events with our spouses... there are some private moments I'll never forget.

Once I graduated, we decided (or, I think we decided together) to take the job offer and moved four hours away. Over the past 1 1/2 years we've taken some nice vacations (went to Disney Land, Sea World, and visited with my grandmother in southern California last year; we also went to D.C. for the 4th of July, which they had never done before... as a child I lived near D.C. and the 4th was something to remember; I'd highly recommend it for your family sometime), but mainly worked. We realized quite quickly that my salary would not suffice and so my wife took employment with a local retailer. The goal was to pay down our debts and buy the house I'm still in. She loved this house, and I wanted her to be happy and finally have a place to call home that was HERS (ours, of course). Over the past year, we've been working towards our financial goals, but she also says I've become grouchy and unpleasant to be around. It's financial stress, and it just ticks me off that I couldn't support my family the way I felt they should be cared for... after all the sacrifice (from all of us), I still qualified for food stamps on my salary! So, I started applying to jobs in California because the salary is usually 2-3 times what they pay here. I should also add that my record has made it difficult to find employment, and I feel blessed to have found the job I have. I've applied for a pardon from the governor, because since that time I've made a complete change and most people wouldn't recognize me anymore... in fact, I had some clients at the rehab (who I used to know when I was a drunk) who didn't recognize me while I was in grad school... they couldn't believe it was me. Hopefully that will underscore the kinds of changes I've made, but also show the board how we went from then to now. I know I hurt my wife over the years, and I've spent the last 7 years trying to make up for it but apparently I've also become difficult to deal with and arrogant at times. It's just that I usually feel like a complete loser for what I did years ago, and it's frustrating that my family has to suffer because of it still. However, I do expect to get the pardon. Few from my background make the changes I have and end up as professionals... I'm definitely a statistical anomaly but it's also why I do think I have what it takes to change myself. I've already overcome something that kills 90% of its victims (I forget who did the study). Anyway, I've spilled my guts, but in the hopes that some good can come of this. I want my family to be together, happy, and healthy. I love my wife and she's been a supportive and wonderful partner over the years. I WANTED to help her finish school, no matter how arrogant I might have sounded. All the feedback and help has been appreciated, and of course I hope this can come to a hopeful conclusion but regardless, maybe I can at least learn for the future.

I have to leave at 3:45 a.m. to take a group of my students to D.C. for the swearing-in of our president, and I won't be back until late Thursday. Please don't think I'm ignoring anyone, but I'll be out for a few days.

When she was here, she didn't want to attend for nursing which is why I don't understand what the sudden change is for.
Maybe she's had time to think about it. Maybe it's become her idea now instead of yours. (Remember, she wants to be her own person... )

Health care is booming. All of us Baby Boomers are getting old and falling apart -- and there are LOTS of us, plus many of our parents are still alive too. If she got an RN degree, she could name her price and her job -- so many options publicly or privately, in a hospital or a doctor's office or a fitness center or in a school. And the money would be good.

Maybe she's had time to think about it. Maybe it's become her idea now instead of yours. (Remember, she wants to be her own person.......)


This was exactly what I thought. It needs to be her plan, not something she's carrying out under orders or never doing "right" or "good enough"

This was exactly what I thought. It needs to be her plan, not something she's carrying out under orders or never doing "right" or "good enough"

Gotcha. Oh, here is an answer to the question of "What would you change?"

I would love to change the relentless way that you are stubborn and never listen. Hope that helps.

Here is also a copy of the email I sent her.

Hi,

I think it was more how I felt than you. I felt fat and unattractive, but I'm trying to do better. I'm just trying to tell you what was wrong with me. It wasn't you.

Ok, also, sorry to badger everyone and I won't do it anymore. Yes, I've felt a wide-range of emotions about this, from hurt to rage and it comes out in my emails and phone calls. I'm normally a rational and logical individual (to a fault), but these are difficult times. I do apologize for it, and hope that at some point you can forgive me for everything I've done to hurt you. Also, please understand that I'm not saying that in hopes you'd come back, which I realize probably isn't going to happen. I'll work on trying to be a bit more sane, but please understand that this is extremely difficult for me; please be gentle. I've been trying to look at what I did wrong, and yes I do see there was quite a bit that could have been done better. There WERE red flags all over the place, but I just didn't acknowledge them.

I haven't had any cheesecake in a while. Nothing but Clif Bars until the evening, when I have a small dinner. I know I used to be somewhat attractive and in shape, and that I've let myself go over the past year. On another note, Texas A&M has my application now, and I'm likely going to go there and study for my Ph.D. in child psychology; my goal is to research autism and asperger's interventions in the classroom. Maybe some good can come of it for [our son], because I truly feel like the current ones are "shots in the dark" and that the disorder is not fully understood.

On the W-4, I already have your last pay stub but I'm still waiting for my 1099 from Scottrade. I'll try to take care of our debts as best I can. I found a three-bedroom house that is for $450 and is near the university so when the kids come to visit I'll have room for them; the owner said I wouldn't have to put down a deposit either since I work at Henderson (small towns sometimes have their benefits, don't they?). [Wife's name], I honestly wish you well and hope you are happy and successful. Please believe me that I never wanted you to be miserable, and I am truly sorry for anything I've done that contributed to that. I'm doing the best I can to work on myself as well, because I don't want to be unhappy either. Whether this is truly the end of us or not, I need to change these things. I do have some positive qualities, I just need to focus more on them and try not to be so dissatisfied with everything. Sometimes I wonder if coming here was a mistake for me because I simply don't make enough money here; hence, my application to finish a doctorate and probably leave Arkansas for a better job.

You were my best friend and lover, and I couldn't have asked for a more loyal and committed spouse; this is not your fault and I do acknowledge that. The world is so full of fair-weather friends and summer-soldiers, that I do feel fortunate to have had a spouse who was as committed and forgiving as you were; you stuck it out when most wouldn't and I regret not seeing the red flags before this happened. And yes, it is true that at night I've noticed how I never roll over into your space. I guess that over the years' I've become so used to having you in bed with me at night that I still unconciously do that. I would not have had the successes that I've had without you having been there to support me; for that, I will always love and respect you. I'm glad my babies were made with you; they're intelligent and beautiful because of it (but I didn't detract from that either :-). I wish you could attend school here and let me help you, because you deserve to go and I hope you will. Please know that you're always welcome to come back home, and if you did we'd live in a smaller, cheaper house and YOU would get to attend school. I'd work two jobs and let you go because you do deserve it. Yes, I've accepted that you're gone but do hope that at some point in the future I might change enough to show you I'm worth another chance. Anyway, that's enough for now. I love you and miss you and the children. As soon as I get a minute and a stable place I'll visit with them and let you know; please don't take that as my not wanting them and I'll keep in touch. Please tell the children that I love them and miss them and that Daddy will see them as soon as possible.

Aaron

I agree. But it's not that easy to break a habit like that. It really takes focus, discipline, and practice, as well as commitment. It will take months of self restraint and looking on the bright side. Definitely not impossible though.



Positively makes my heart glow just thinking about it! I hope this can work out. Now I'm all ready to cheer Greatbignow on...


No, it's not easy but I've turned around a life marred by drugs, alcohol, and criminal activity. If I can do that and come out a better person, I can definitely treat my wife with respect, love, and empathy while trying to focus on what is good in life. I've seen some of the worst in people and been in some unbelievable situations (mostly of my own making); having a family and working isn't that bad.

Wow, you've had quite the colorful life! This does give us a little more insight into how you've gotten to where you are now. When I said "fess up," you really did! Have you ever thought of sharing your experiences and writing a book, or submitting your story to a magazine, to supplement your income?

I do have to applaud you for the steps you've taken to turn your life around. Some of them mandatory, and some by your own hard work, diligence and perserverance. Also I must give you kudos for sticking around and taking our advice in stride. Many would have gotten angry with us at this point and told us to shove our advice. You have a once in a lifetime opportunity to attend President elect Obama's inauguration ceremony. I'm sure you will hear some very encouraging words, that could, in part, help you with learning how to gain peace in your own life, and maybe in the relationship you are presently having with your wife. Use this opportunity to teach you how you can better work with your love for your wife and children. Your way isn't working, and I'm sure if you listen closely, you will find some wise words that will help you to see more clearly, and focus on what is important and what is not. Of course this doesn't mean that it will change how your wife is feeling, but it may change the way you handle things on a day to day basis, with your wife and kids, and the way you see things in general.

You have proven in the past that you can pull yourself up when given no other choice. It's once again time to do this again. Try and think of this as marriage "boot camp!" Just know that this time you may not be able to be in control of the outcome. But, you can certainly be pro-active in the process.

Your wife may have just had enough, and will never change her mind. You have to be prepared for that. The only thing you are in control of is you! Maybe if she sees actions backing your words, and sees a little bit of the man she fell in love with, she might just come around. But the ball is in your court now! You can choose to punish her, accuse her, be vindictive, use the kids as weapons, etc. or you can show her that regardless of her decision, you are going to be the best Daddy, and the best person you can be. If you play your cards right, and lighten up a bit, she just might take notice.

Another thing you must not do, is harass or barrage her with details of the steps you have taken to change. You can tell her that you are working on it for the sake of your family, but leave it at that. In other words, don't start with the arrogance thing again. Don't say I've done this, but what have YOU done. Don't give her the whole "I've been through this and done that," and what have YOU done? Boost her up instead of bringing her down.

Offer to do anything you can do, within reason, to put her through nursing school. As Wondergirl and Asking have said, there are many opportunities in the Health Care field. Tell her you will do your best to support her efforts, so you can assure the welfare of your children and your future. The children are not allowed to be used as pawns. They will resent you later in life if you do that. Instead they should be treated how you would want to be. No more calling it "babysitting." It doesn't matter what she is doing. These are your children!

You gone through a lot and changed the way you do things. You can change this around too. The bottom line is, you can only control how you choose to act. You can't control how she chooses to live her life. It just doesn't work that way.

I was posting while you were Aaron. That was a very heartfelt letter to your wife. Maybe she will read it a few times and take it in the manner it was meant to be read.

Well, I'm finally back. Thank you for your responses and support, and I have to say I'm surprised that this online forum has been of so much benefit. Yes, I've learned that accountability and feedback can be painfully honest at times, but my two years in treatment was a constant barrage of that kind of living and group therapy. It made what I'm doing now possible. Yes, I've actually thought about writing of my exerience, especially given the historical nature of Arkansas' prisons. Some of it was absolutely horrid, while other parts were humorous beyond belief. Maybe I could make it onto Oprah except I wouldn't have to lie about my experiences like that other guy did to simply sell books. I need to start writing down some of these notes before I forget them.

Obama's inauguration was a historic event. While I did not vote for him, and am cautiously skeptical of his policy views, there was an air of hope and confidence that I haven't seen or felt in a long time. My students have an expanded view of the world, and I sincerely hope that they come back with a new resolve for their own futures.

Ok, back to my reason for being here. I spoke with my wife today for about an hour. I told her that I loved her sincerely, and that I never wanted her to be unhappy. Also, I informed her that I had been off my depression medication for about six months because we couldn't afford it and I didn't want to bother them with it. She said, "Oh, I wish I would have known that." Not quite sure what to make of that. She agreed and said that it was sad to end a 13 year relationship with a family, and I told her that if she wanted to come home at some point I'd agree to let her stay at home and attend school since we'd have a smaller, cheaper house. To that she responded that the offer was appreciated, but that at this point she feels the separation will likely be permanent. I didn't badger or even press any hard questions, I told her I wanted her to be successful, that I missed her terribly (though not fighting with her), and that I wish we would have had more open communication regarding our issues. She responded yes, but that she felt to resentful and angry towards me that she wasn't sure anything I could have done would have made a difference. She said there's nothing left to work on anymore. I told her that I respect how she feels, and that she's always displayed good judgement but that her own father was separated for 5 years from his wife of 10 years, and that some friends of ours even remarried after divorcing. She replied that she's aware things like that do occur, but that at this point she just doesn't see it happening. She is however, going to wait for the divorce, though she doesn't really consider this a separation now. She explained that she is finally beginning to be happy again and doesn't feel like she's under constant stress from me and our situation. On a positive note, when she comes down next weekend she agreed to have lunch with me (and without any real reason we should do so, not sure what to make of it and I'm just going to try and enjoy her company; I miss her terribly and long to shower her with hugs, kisses, and love but it probably won't help to try and go that far; I just want to show her that I respect and love her and hopefully enjoy each other's company).

She also said that if she were me she'd get a doctorate. I like my current job but it just doesn't pay enough and I feel like it's a dead-end professional position. What I did like about this conversation is that it seemed to be constructive, no matter that she said this is likely permanent. When I told her in a heartfelt manner how much I loved her and that she had been my best friend, and that pretty much every memory I've had of my adulthood included her, she almost sounded regretful, and said that she was sorry it turned out this way; she didn't want this either. So, she's coming down next week and her dad will keep the kids because I just don't have the cash to feed them or do anything with them (my water was turned off this morning and I took a sponge bath with the drippings that were still in my hot water heater... I'm serious when I say our finances have been ruined due to this). If the lunch goes well, I might ask if she wants to go out and see a movie or maybe even go to the casino for a few hands of blackjack. The fact that she's going to lunch with me looks to be a good sign, in my opinion. What do you think? Thanks for all the feedback, and I appreciate the honesty.

Okay, I live in the 50th poorest state and am affilitated with an university. You are very condescending about her and her families education. I also bet you surround yourself with those you feel worthy to be in your company... other scholars and professionals.

With that, she may not feel she can contribute or has any self worth in your eyes. She may just want to find someone who can accept her for all her faults and lack of stick to it ness. That could be you if...

This is complicated, involved, and I think you are self aware and really trying. I just thought I would point this out.

I do wish you the best and am glad you have stuck around through all the slinging. Everyone is on yourside, hoping to help you pull this together, and there is plenty of fault on both sides I am sure.

Thanks for the feedback; I'm going to go to lunch with her next weekend and see how it goes.

One last thing, you can suspend your student loan payments for up to a year, you can try to break your lease and move somewhere cheaper, and you can enter a debt management program which will lower you CC bills to what you can afford.

Been where you are financially. This may or may not help.

One last thing, you can suspend your student loan payments for up to a year, you can try to break your lease and move somewhere cheaper, and you can enter a debt management program which will lower you CC bills to what you can afford.

Been where you are financially. This may or may not help.

I may have to do that, or I'm considering going into a doctoral program so that they'd be deferred again.

I was posting while you were Aaron. That was a very heartfelt letter to your wife. Maybe she will read it a few times and take it in the manner it was meant to be read.

One other thing. I've been considering applying to a doctoral program at my old university (University of Arkansas). I'd be close to my children (close enough for joint custody, if this does end in divorce), I could help her with them (help her go to school), and it would also increase the possibility of a reconciliation because I'd be closer to her (I'd have to be careful though because I could also try to smother her since I miss and love her/them so much). What does the board think about this?

One other thing. I've been considering applying to a doctoral program at my old university (University of Arkansas). I'd be close to my children (close enough for joint custody, if this does end in divorce), I could help her with them (help her go to school), and it would also increase the possibility of a reconciliation because I'd be closer to her (I'd have to be careful though because I could also try to smother her since I miss and love her/them so much). What does the board think about this?
You've come a long way since your first post on this board. You are much more introspective and also very aware of what you could do wrong to mess up the whole thing. You are now looking outside of yourself and have become much more empathetic of your wife. I like the idea of your returning to school at your old university. You'd be back in what is familiar to you, and, as you said, you'd be close to your family again. And yes, you would have to be very, very careful in what you say to your wife and how you act.

But guess what! You now have a support group and an Internet family who are in your corner! We will tell it like it is and offer suggestions for improvement. Obama says "Yes, we can." Pick up a hint from that and apply that slogan to yourself and to your own situation. (And, by the way, my younger son was able to defer his government loans from his undergrad days by staying in school. He earned three company-paid master's degrees over five years and now has a great job that enables him to pay monthly on loans.)

We're here for you! Please let us know how that lunch goes. (We know you will be at your best!! )

The plan sounds good to me, as long as you give her some space and let her make her own decisions without your assuming the role of "grownup" to her "child." It might help if you starting thinking of her as your superior, just to promote the habit of treating her with respect even when you don't understand her choices or ideas. I'm not saying she is better, but that you are so used to second guessing her, it might be helpful to just shut off that part of you. Just a thought.

The plan sounds good to me, as long as you give her some space and let her make her own decisions without your assuming the role of "grownup" to her "child." It might help if you starting thinking of her as your superior, just to promote the habit of treating her with respect even when you don't understand her choices or ideas. I'm not saying she is better, but that you are so used to second guessing her, it might be helpful to just shut off that part of you. Just a thought.


Makes sense, thanks

My sense is you need to put your financial house in order and keep contact with your wife strictly about your kids, and their future.

She needs the space. Let her have it.



Also, I informed her that I had been off my depression medication for about six months because we couldn't afford it and I didn't want to bother them with

Makes me wonder what other facts your not telling her about.

My sense is you need to put your financial house in order and keep contact with your wife strictly about your kids, and their future.

She needs the space. Let her have it.


Makes me wonder what other facts your not telling her about.


There isn't anything else. I trusted her and we had built a life from when I was still a teenager!

My sense is you need to put your financial house in order and keep contact with your wife strictly about your kids, and their future.

She needs the space. Let her have it.


Makes me wonder what other facts your not telling her about.

Also, that may be fine and dandy to say it should be strictly about the kids, but I still have a lot of unanswered questions and emotions. I can't just cancel someone (and certainly not my emotions towards her) after spending my entire adult life with her. We've spoken over the past few weeks about some of these things, but I still don't understand why she felt this was an appropriate course of action... like I said, we'd built a fairly decent life together and it was only going to get better In my opinion. She wouldn't have had to work forever, just long enough to buy our home and get our credit cards paid off. Apparently she couldn't or wouldn't commit to that or our marriage. I just wish there would have been more communication because it might not have come to this.

Greatbignow, their isn't much you can do right now.. It's just the way it is with your wife, you can't change her, you have to change yourself. As difficult it is, your main concern is those children. Don't abandon them now, or put them in the middle. Be there for them, no matter what, as hard as it is, go see your children, even if you have to babysit. Those three kids are your life, no one else right now, not even her. Let her do her thing, no matter what it is, if she cheated, it won't work out and she will proabably be sorry, and regret it. But I would back off and l the call your children, and just deal with that right now. Nothing else should matter.

Also, that may be fine and dandy to say it should be strictly about the kids, but I still have a lot of unanswered questions and emotions.

Trust me friend, your still to close to the problem to understand your solution, so focus on what's the most important things now, until the emotional dust settles, and reality becomes clear. I know its easier said than done, but its necessary.

Stop pushing for what you want and back off the pressure and confusion.

You need positive action NOW, not answers you will only argue about, and not accept, nor understand. Your post proves that, but you can't see it.

Trust me friend, your still to close to the problem to understand your solution, so focus on whats the most important things now, until the emotional dust settles, and reality becomes clear. I know its easier said than done, but its necessary.

Stop pushing for what you want and back off the pressure and confusion.

You need positive action NOW, not answers you will only argue about, and not accept, nor understand. Your post proves that, but you can't see it.


I can appreciate what you're saying. The best thing I can do is take some positive action; she may not come back, but it's still the best action I can take. In some ways, I can see myself in a better situation eventually (when I finish my Ph.D.), but I just hate splitting up my family. It's such a loss and tragedy, and she doesn't appear to have any sense of loss or regret; that's what hurts the most.

If you HATE, absolutely HATE, how your life is day in and day out--would you feel a sense of loss and regret when you walked away from it?

Listen to you! You're STILL talking about being in a better position as if everything in life should be measured against your education and your job! She wouldn't have had to work forever, huh? ONLY until you could buy a house and pay off credit cards. That's ONLY (for most people, anyway) five to ten years. And for what? Did she have the same goals as you do? Have you even ASKED her what the most important thing to HER would be?

She explained that she is finally beginning to be happy again and doesn't feel like she's under constant stress from me and our situation

Pay attention, as these are her feelings. Getting you family back is really the least of your concerns.

So far, it seems your education has been your priority over the loved ones in your life. That's why they are not there now.


It's such a loss and tragedy, and she doesn't appear to have any sense of loss or regret; that's what hurts the most.

Why should she regret leaving a bad situation?? Get a second job, and go back to school later.

Pay attention, as these are her feelings. Getting you family back is really the least of your concerns.

So far, it seems your education has been your priority over the loved ones in your life. Thats why they are not there now.



Why should she regret leaving a bad situation???


I didn't think the situation was that bad, but obviously someone else felt differently. I think she'll regret it because of the fact that her income is now going to be substantially lower, she'll have to rely on her mother and step-father for EVERYTHING, the demands of caring for three children, and the fact that her mother's household is anything but stable. Like I've said before, these people move every 3-6 months and have for 13 years (I've often wondered if they were running from something, it's downright unatural). Her schooling success will depend completely on their stability, and I'm not trying to be arrogant. This is the reality of the situation and the long-standing habit of those she is now relying on. At least if I'm there I can help care for the children and maybe we can even pull off a joint-custody arrangement. I don't want my children to live in poverty either, or have her be essentially forced to remarry for financial reasons. I have no problem helping her through school in that manner, and I really want to be near my children. After my doctorate though, it's likely I'd have to move but at least I'd be near them for several years. I'm not going to be cheated out of my children or have them call someone else "Daddy." I'd be extremely hostile to that.

Another thing; my education has been a priority but it was mostly for my family's welfare. I wanted them to have a decent standard of living and knew that education was the likely path to achieve that. That is also why I took this job instead of going on for my doctrate 1.5 years ago; it was THEIR turn and I put off my own aspirations & goals to accomplish this. That's part of why I'm so upset; I gave that up for her and our children and it's been a complete waste of time. However, if I live up there and focus on my doctorate while helping out the children it could also end with reconciliation but at least I'd have a Ph.D. to show for it. People do fall in love again, and I'm going to try and improve myself either way but I think reconciliation will be more likely if I'm close to them. Also, if you have a family and attend college your schooling HAS to be the priority or you won't make it. Especially when considering that I worked 30-40 hours a week in addition... it's just not likely to pan out unless you completely commit to education when you also have the demands of family & work. If anything, I've learned how to accomplish goals and stay committed.

I didn't think the situation was that bad, but obviously someone else felt differently. I think she'll regret it because of the fact that her income is now going to be substantially lower, she'll have to rely on her mother and step-father for EVERYTHING, the demands of caring for three children, and the fact that her mother's household is anything but stable. Like I've said before, these people move every 3-6 months and have for 13 years (I've often wondered if they were running from something, it's downright unatural). Her schooling success will depend completely on their stability, and I'm not trying to be arrogant. This is the reality of the situation and the long-standing habit of those she is now relying on. At least if I'm there I can help care for the children and maybe we can even pull off a joint-custody arrangement. I don't want my children to live in poverty either, or have her be essentially forced to remarry for financial reasons. I have no problem helping her through school in that manner, and I really want to be near my children. After my doctorate though, it's likely I'd have to move but at least I'd be near them for several years. I'm not going to be cheated out of my children or have them call someone else "Daddy." I'd be extremely hostile to that.

Another thing; my education has been a priority but it was mostly for my family's welfare. I wanted them to have a decent standard of living and knew that education was the likely path to achieve that. That is also why I took this job instead of going on for my doctrate 1.5 years ago; it was THEIR turn and I put off my own aspirations & goals to accomplish this. That's part of why I'm so upset; I gave that up for her and our children and it's been a complete waste of time. However, if I live up there and focus on my doctorate while helping out the children it could also end with reconciliation but at least I'd have a Ph.D. to show for it. People do fall in love again, and I'm going to try and improve myself either way but I think reconciliation will be more likely if I'm close to them. Also, if you have a family and attend college your schooling HAS to be the priority or you won't make it. Especially when considering that I worked 30-40 hours a week in addition...it's just not likely to pan out unless you completely commit to education when you also have the demands of family & work. If anything, I've learned how to accomplish goals and stay committed.
You're still sounding like a martyr, that it's all about you, not her and your children.

She can get grants and scholarships for school and work even a full-time job with her mother's and step-father's help. Maybe some financial insecurity and a little family chaos are worth it to her just to be on her own and able to make her own decisions.

You're still sounding like a martyr, that it's all about you, not her and your children.

She can get grants and scholarships for school and work even a full-time job with her mother's and step-father's help. Maybe some financial insecurity and a little family chaos are worth it to her just to be on her own and able to make her own decisions.

I have to say that I feel like a martyr at this point, but I don't want to be one. That's just it though, I don't think her mother and step-father will stick it out for the long term, so at the least I can help with my children and be there for them. She can make her own decisions, though. I've enjoyed the freedom I've had for the past month, I just miss them as well.

Greatbignow, you said about you going up there where she is. Is she comfortable about you moving there? Don't go there with the intentions of thinking things will work out with your wife, because if it doesn't happen, you won't be disappointed. We have all been through something in our lives and have been hurt. Myself being divorced, I know one thing for sure, I never put my kids ever in the middle of things, and never discussed anything in front of them that would hurt them. My main priority wasn't my ex-husband who I had been married for years too. My children were number one and that's what it should be. What you want and she wants right now are two different things. Whatever it is, you can't focus on what if, this is the way it is. I myself was very fortunate and my children grew up in two loving households for visitation. As a matter of fact, my ex husband and I are the best of friends. I was one of the lucky ones. But what I am trying to say, right now you might have to put your Ph.D on hold right now, and support the kids and be there for them. I know it's hard, and your devastated, but sometimes we all learn from our mistakes.

People don't just leave their families for no reason. You'll eventually find out why. It sucks that she just left without even trying to work things through. Why get married?
If she loves you, and you treat her well, and give her the intimacy she needs (emotionally, I mean), she will be able to open up. Counseling really helps, even if you go alone, or she goes alone.

Have you tried talking to her mom?

Have you tried talking to her mom?
Just out of curiosity, why should he talk with her mom?

In fact, I think talking to the mom would be a really bad idea; the poster's wife is already complaining about having him treat her like a child. She would not like it if he went "over her head" to her mother, I bet.

You are not empathetic, nor sympathetic, to the real needs of your family, so there gone. It's that simple.

Pay attention, she chose instability and poverty over you. And is happier? That's very profound.

People don't just leave their families for no reason. You'll eventually find out why. It sucks that she just left without even trying to work things through. Why get married?
If she loves you, and you treat her well, and give her the intimacy she needs (emotionally, I mean), she will be able to open up. Counseling really helps, even if you go alone, or she goes alone.

Have you tried talking to her mom?

Talking to her Mom? I don't believe you have read through any of the posts at all here. If you had, maybe you would have been able to give a helpful or insightful response. It seems to me as you are blindly placing blame.

You are not empathetic, nor sympathetic, to the real needs of your family, so there gone. Its that simple.

Pay attention, she chose instability and poverty over you. And is happier?? Thats very profound.

Well, she's happier FOR NOW but I suspect that as things wear thin up there, and the reality of being a single parent with a minimum-wage job settles in (and living at your mother's house when you're almost 40, with your three kids in tow!), that she eventually will NOT be happier up there. It's still too new; it's only been a month.

On the subject of speaking with my mother-in-law.

I did, actually, when all this first occurred. I had a good relationship with my in-laws, so I could talk to her about it. She was floored and had no real idea why this was going on. She did tell me that she just didn't see it as being permanent and that if she were me she would not file for divorce or start another relationship... she also hugged me and told me that she loved me and that I was like a son to her (she was crying as well). So, yes I've spoken with my mother-in-law. She's going to support the children and take care of them, but doesn't want this either.

You are not empathetic, nor sympathetic, to the real needs of your family, so there gone. Its that simple.

Pay attention, she chose instability and poverty over you. And is happier?? Thats very profound.


I think she's also in denial...

All she needed to do was get away from her husband and father of her children... everything is better... I was the entire problem?

As the British would say, "Not Bloody likely."

At this point she has fewer responsibilities since her mother is footing the bill in many different ways; at some point that will create friction because her mother wants this to be worked out between us.

You are not empathetic, nor sympathetic, to the real needs of your family, so there gone. Its that simple.

Pay attention, she chose instability and poverty over you. And is happier?? Thats very profound.

What were those needs? The way I saw it, I was the one taking care of my children 5 days a week! I was the one who helped them with homework, cooked them dinner, took them places, and took general care of their needs in a myriad of ways. My wife was the one who worked in the evenings and no longer took care of anyone's needs but her own; she would also stay out with her friends until the wee hours of the morning while I was taking care of our home. I felt burned out and overburdened, and that I was doing the majority of the housework AND childrearing AND working... but kept at it because my family needed it and we wanted to buy our home... after that she was going to go back to school. I don't see how your comment applies, but of course I have to realize that you only know what has been posted so it's possible the information is incomplete as well. Not sure I could have done anything more, except have paid more attention to my wife's needs (emotionally & sexually).

What were those needs? The way I saw it, I was the one taking care of my children 5 days a week! I was the one who helped them with homework, cooked them dinner, took them places, and took general care of their needs in a myriad of ways. My wife was the one who worked in the evenings and no longer took care of anyone's needs but her own; she would also stay out with her friends until the wee hours of the morning while I was taking care of our home. I felt burned out and overburdened, and that I was doing the majority of the housework AND childrearing AND working... but kept at it because my family needed it and we wanted to buy our home...after that she was going to go back to school. I don't see how your comment applies, but of course I have to realize that you only know what has been posted so it's possible the information is incomplete as well. Not sure I could have done anything more, except have paid more attention to my wife's needs (emotionally & sexually).
There are needs and there are needs. Household chore needs, parenting needs, cooking needs, working-for-pay needs, academic needs, and aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh emotional and sexual needs.

Having been married since Noah dropped us off the ark, I know the last two needs, hands down, take precedence over all the others.

So far, it seems your education has been your priority over the loved ones in your life. Thats why they are not there now.

This is an important point.
Talaniman is giving advice that is difficult to hear but right.

(I should know. I don't always like what Talaniman says, but it's generally right!)

It's not that education is bad or not a good goal, but that it should never come before your children.

Not sure I could have done anything more, except have paid more attention to my wife's needs (emotionally & sexually).

"Except"??
Duh!

Please reread what Wondergirl posted:


There are needs and there are needs. Household chore needs, parenting needs, cooking needs, working-for-pay needs, academic needs, and aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh emotional and sexual needs.

Having been married since Noah dropped us off the ark, I know the last two needs, hands down, take precedence over all the others.

Greatbignow, its always going back to you and what you did. This is not about you and her anymore, its about your kids, your dwelling on changing it with your wife and that isn't going to happen right now. Deal with what is now. You said she did work at night, well she most of been pulling in money also for your household. Their was something missing in the marriage, and at this time of her life she chose to move on. I am sure it wasn't a decision for her overnight, she must of thought about it, to pack three kids up and go. No one is putting you down, you sound like you were a great Dad, but I don't think you understand its not about you anymore and what could be. Please put this on the back burner now, and concentrate on the kids and seeing them. It seems like its about you hurting and what you want. You are going to stay stuck, and the only one who will get hurt at the end will be you and the kids, not her. So I suggest to move on and put your energy on your family, as hard as it is.

Sully makes some good points as she must have been thinking of this action for a while, before she did it, and it came as a shock to you. Yeah we all here understand shock and hurt, but you tell us very little about the relationship, other than her failures. Very little about missing them, and fail to see its about what you do next, not how she will fail again, or what her parents want her to do. Its all about your plan and what you do.

The reason I suggested talking to her family is because he doesn't exactly seem clear on why she even left. Despite someone's age, sometimes our parents understand us better than our spouses. That's all. I've gone to my inlaws from time to time when I don't understand my spouse's actions and it's been helpful. So what if you're 40 and have kids... that means you're expected to know it all?

You really need to re-read this thread or have someone read it to you GreatBigNow. Open up and listen. You know, just because you meet all the needs (taking care of children, household, etc) does not make a person happy. Or rich people with household staffs would never need counseling or lawyers. From what I am gathering from what you have said and what you have not said, she needs a sense of selfworth, and she needs to be content within herself. You undermined this every time you downgraded her relatives and "encouraged" her in her endeavors. Some people are not driven or have such a low opinion that they may get the courage to start but seldom have the courage to succeed.

So you are right, it does lie within her. But listen to this next part, you are the one who cultivates or kills those pieces within her. And from what you have said, I think you inadvertently killed those. So you are wrong when you say the answer is within her. If she is to live with you, some of the cure has to come from you.

Quit fighting it. Quit trying to find someone to validate you. Quit being a right fighter. WHat you have done is not working for you and you either need to be okay with that and walkaway saying you did all you could or start trying something new.

Sully makes some good points as she must have been thinking of this action for a while, before she did it, and it came as a shock to you. Yeah we all here understand shock and hurt, but you tell us very little about the relationship, other than her failures. Very little about missing them, and fail to see its about what you do next, not how she will fail again, or what her parents want her to do. Its all about your plan and what you do.

I do miss them terribly; I look forward to having lunch with her this weekend (provided she doesn't cancel it), and I don't plan on talking about our troubles. I'm going to try and have a good time with my wife. I love her and the children more than any other thing. I went to school for them, and I took the job for them. It's been about them, not me. I wanted to finish my Ph.D. right after the master's degree, but I felt it was their turn and that I should focus on their needs since they supported me all the way through school (emotionally, I took care of the financial aspects while she watched the kids). The relationship, in my opinion, was one of warmth, friendship, emotional stability, and sexual satisfaction as well (except for the last six months). I loved her like no other, and I planned on staying with her until we left this earth. I still hope for that goal. I just wish there would have been more communication that she felt so unhappy. She wouldn't talk to me or open up at all... she'd just say "Leave me alone" and so I would. She started talking to her friends and hanging out with them late at night and not coming home until many hours after work ended. It reached the point to where I would check online to see when she clocked out. I wasn't trying to be controlling, but she'd get off work at 10 p.m. and walk in the door at to a.m. without calling or anything. That is not acceptable behavior for a mother and wife, In my opinion. Most of our arguments spawned from that; about 10 years ago I used to do the same thing and sometimes would stay gone for days at a time. I know it was wrong, and so I changed it. I became responsible and took care of my family. However, apparently I became too rigid and neglected her needs.

On my future plans... I've already applied to two universities; one for a Ph.D. in educational research and statistics & the other for special education (I work with students who have disabilities on the university level). The one for special education has a training grant that pays $1,500 a month living stipend AND full tuition. If I can get a teaching assistantship (which is what I want to do with my degree anyway), I can bump that up to $2,500 a month and make more money than I do now! I could actually support my children better and finish my education... I'd also probably have more time to see them. If I move back to Fayetteville, I'll make less money but be near my children and wife and I figure it would be the likeliest chance for reconciliation. If I'm 10 hours away I don't think it will happen as likely. It's much easier said than done to walk away. Of course I'll give her space but when I made my vow I meant it. That means through good times and bad, through mid-life crises and menopause. I love my spouse, and I can wait for her and show her how much I still love her. Until she's actually divorced me, I plan on doing everything within reason to try and reconcile this relationship. It's not fair to my children to have their father taken away from them; their stability shattered. Their entire lives are now shattered... everything they knew is gone. And for what? So that she can lead her own life? It's selfish and if she had communicated these things to me, AND we went to counseling and it still didn't work out I'd say OK. However, she just walked out one day without so much as sitting down and communicating what happened or what she was planning on doing OR how she was feeling. In fact, I couldn't get an answer out of her for days until right before she left! I asked if she would at least stay until June (sleep on the couch, ect) so that we wouldn't be financially devastated and the children could finish the school year, and she said she'd think about it... she didn't answer directly and finally revealed that she'd be leaving the Monday before Christmas. I was hurt beyond belief and she wouldn't even allow me to see my children for Christmas... I got a five minute phone-call from them.


So my plans for the future are to finish my Ph.D. I can't live on what I make working full-time with my master's degree, and I'll actually make more money per month going to school. It will take three years to complete my degree, and it's going to take her four years if everything pans out, which I have to say I seriously doubt. I'll be extremely surprised her mother stays put long enough for her to even enroll in school this fall. THAT IS HOW UNSTABLE these people are... I'm not making it up or being condescending. These people won't let grass grow under their feet, and now my children's future is in their hands... I'm deeply concerned about my children and figure they'll be transferring to different schools every 3-6 months. That's what will happen if I'm not there to help them. She's heading for a train wreck with her fingers in her ears, thinking that I'm the only problem and if she can just get away everything will be fine. It's not just me.

"Except"?? !!!! ????
Duh!

Please reread what Wondergirl posted:

I agree; if I had another chance I'd take care of those. It is my hope and desire that at some point she'll figure our family and marriage is worth at least TRYING to save. That's the problem I have... she made no effort to try and save our marriage... no communication, no counseling... NOTHING!

No one said it was JUST you.

HOWEVER: I left my husband once. It was back when we were still dating. I went to my mother's for a week, with no notice--just the words, "I'm done. I'll call you when I'm ready to talk about how to get my stuff out of here".

He was shocked to the core.

Guess what, though? I'd been TRYING to talk to him about why I was unhappy for a couple months before then. He didn't REALLY listen to me. He had it all figured out, problems all solved, everything tied up nice and neat and hey presto! I was supposed to just be HAPPY with his solutions, because they were "what's best for US".

Well, I got sick of that attitude REALLY fast. HIS solutions didn't work for ME, even if they worked for US. I was bitterly unhappy, and saw him as the source of my unhappiness, even though I KNEW it was other things too. The thing is, though---I was resentful because he dictated how WE were going to handle the things in MY life that I thought were intolerable. One of the things HE decided was that WE were going to wait for something--and I finally decided that it wasn't worth being miserable with my job, and then coming home and being angry with HIM because HE decided that I'd have to stay at my horrible job for a YEAR more, so I was upset both at home AND at work. The only respite I got was going out with my friends.

I can't even begin to imagine how much worse that would have been if we'd had kids, and my job made it so that I hardly got to see them.

So yeah---because YOU dictated how it was going to be for BOTH of you, regardless how miserable it made her, even for just a "short time" like 6 months or a year, she left. At least then she could be angry with HERSELF for being unhappy instead of holding resentment against you for it.

In other words: Better the captain of a rowboat than a slave on a luxury liner.

No one said it was JUST you.

HOWEVER: I left my husband once. It was back when we were still dating. I went to my mother's for a week, with no notice--just the words, "I'm done. I'll call you when I'm ready to talk about how to get my stuff out of here".

He was shocked to the core.

Guess what, though? I'd been TRYING to talk to him about why I was unhappy for a couple months before then. He didn't REALLY listen to me. He had it all figured out, problems all solved, everything tied up nice and neat and hey presto! I was supposed to just be HAPPY with his solutions, because they were "what's best for US".

Well, I got sick of that attitude REALLY fast. HIS solutions didn't work for ME, even if they worked for US. I was bitterly unhappy, and saw him as the source of my unhappiness, even though I KNEW it was other things too. The thing is, though---I was resentful because he dictated how WE were going to handle the things in MY life that I thought were intolerable. One of the things HE decided was that WE were going to wait for something--and I finally decided that it wasn't worth being miserable with my job, and then coming home and being angry with HIM because HE decided that I'd have to stay at my horrible job for a YEAR more, so I was upset both at home AND at work. The only respite I got was going out with my friends.

I can't even begin to imagine how much worse that would have been if we'd had kids, and my job made it so that I hardly got to see them.

So yeah---because YOU dictated how it was going to be for BOTH of you, regardless how miserable it made her, even for just a "short time" like 6 months or a year, she left. At least then she could be angry with HERSELF for being unhappy instead of holding resentment against you for it.

In other words: Better the captain of a rowboat than a slave on a luxury liner.

Thanks for the insight and personal experience. For whatever reason, I didn't see it coming other than the red flags that I SHOULD have seen but I always thought we were stable and secure enough that if there was a problem we'd deal with it before it went too far... I guess that is a primary difference in communication styles between men and women. I couldn't or wouldn't read between the lines, and she wouldn't come out and say it. I got upset and griped when she'd stay out for hours at a time without telling me where she was or why she was out, but what I should have been doing was satisfying her needs and working to make it so she'd WANT to come home and be with me. Since the home invasion and attempted rape of my wife in December 2006 (read the prior posts for the details), I rarely left them home alone... I was just to worried that something would happen to them. I also offered her, if she came home, to be able to stay at home with the children and quit her job and she can attend college for what she said she wants: nursing. We'd get a smaller house but one that's big enough for all of us. She said thanks, but at this point she feels that our separation will be permanent. I then said that, hey, it's only been a month and what will you do if your mother leaves or moves? She said, "They can't" to which I replied, "They've done it before, and chances are they'll do it again." Everything hinges on whether her mother is stable. I'm waiting for her mother to move and uproot everyone again, because hopefully at that point she'll realize school likely won't be an option living with her mother... and that her husband and father of her children isn't such a bad guy who might be worth trying to salvage a relationship and family with... I'm just waiting for that day.

Like I said, she wouldn't have to work and she can go to school like she wanted. I'm willing to work two jobs if need be, because I love my family and want them to be together and I certainly want my wife to be happy.

Like I said, she wouldn't have to work and she can go to school like she wanted. I'm willing to work two jobs if need be,

I don't know. This just sounds like promises, promises. After I said I wanted a divorce, my husband also offered me a lot of the things I'd wanted for 15 years. I also turned down his offer. Too little, too late.

Plus, I didn't really believe him. If he wasn't going to "let me" go out occasionally when I wasn't leaving him, no reason to think he'd let me if I came back. When we were married, he even objected to my going to see a movie with his sister and her best friend every few months. He said he wasn't meant to be a "babysitter." He basically wanted me home 24/7 unless I was buying groceries and had the kids with me. When I said I was done, he was suddenly telling me I can go out and I can travel without him occasionally, "rights" my friends (and his sister) didn't have to threaten divorce to get. I want to be with someone who doesn't need to be over a barrel to make reasonable concessions. My feeling is that you waited too long.


because I love my family and want them to be together and I certainly want my wife to be happy.

You say that, but you also keep saying you hope she will fail. THAT doesn't sound like you want her to be happy (nor that you want your kids to be happy). And everything you've posted makes it sound more like you needed her income for your financial plans to work out. You have barely said a word about your kids; it's almost all been about money.

I have to agree with Asking here: Pretty much everything you've talked about has been either the money side of things (and women care a LOT less about money than being happy) or about education--usually YOUR education.

LIFE IS NOT ABOUT EITHER OF THOSE THINGS.

Being HAPPY isn't about money or education either--though they can certainly help at times.

Being happy, being successful, is hearing each other's dreams and wanting the other person to succeed at THEIR dream more than you want your own. Being happy is working TOGETHER to achieve things--and that means that if you have to change the plan because something is NOT working for only ONE of you, then you change the stupid plan.

I agree that this might be a "too little, too late" thing. I have a feeling your wife is going to make it work no matter what, and at this point it might be to spite you, it might to be show you that she's capable of FAR more than you expect of her--and frankly, if she divorces you, she gets child support and hey presto, she's a single mom! Watch the grant money and help from the state come rolling in for her to get an education--WITHOUT you.

What you are not understanding from HER point of view is this: She does not NEED you. She especially doesn't need someone who is not listening to her when she does try to chase her dreams.

Step down. Give her space. And support what she is DOING, not what you would "let" her do if she came back.

I don't know. This just sounds like promises, promises. After I said I wanted a divorce, my husband also offered me a lot of the things I'd wanted for 15 years. I also turned down his offer. Too little, too late.

Plus, I didn't really believe him. If he wasn't going to "let me" go out occasionally when I wasn't leaving him, no reason to think he'd let me if I came back. When we were married, he even objected to my going to see a movie with his sister and her best friend every few months. He said he wasn't meant to be a "babysitter." He basically wanted me home 24/7 unless I was buying groceries and had the kids with me. When I said I was done, he was suddenly telling me I can go out and I can travel without him occasionally, "rights" my friends (and his sister) didn't have to threaten divorce to get. I want to be with someone who doesn't need to be over a barrel to make reasonable concessions. My feeling is that you waited too long.



You say that, but you also keep saying you hope she will fail. THAT doesn't sound like you want her to be happy (nor that you want your kids to be happy). And everything you've posted makes it sound more like you needed her income for your financial plans to work out. You have barely said a word about your kids; it's almost all been about money.


I never said she couldn't go out or have friends over. What I didn't like was being left with nearly all the child-rearing duties AND household chores AND working 45 hours a week while she used her days off and off-time to hang out with friends without even calling first. That's the issue I took with it. I had no free time, certainly not enough to hang out with friends, and so no, it didn't feel like a partnership at all. I was taking care of almost everything! She was working 30-35 hours a week and hanging out with her friends, and little else. No one seems to hear that part of it.

Also, if we divorce then it's not a foregone conclusion that she'll get sole custody. If I move back to Fayetteville for my doctorate, then a joint custody arrangement will be what I'd accept. Once her mother starts moving around, I also suspect that if she does try to take the children from me I'll have a chance at them if I can show I'm stable... children need stability and her mother isn't going to provide it; that much I'm certain of.

Sorry to worry about money so much, but when your electricity is turned off, your credit cards are behind, your rent is due, and your water has been shut off (I wrote a hot check so I could turn it back on), money IS the most important thing. I don't think you realize how much of a financial bind she left me in. Our credit is going to be ruined, and I had to borrow $400 from my brother just to eat and cover my water bill. That's what I was trying to avoid, but she wouldn't listen and now our credit is going to be ruined. High price to pay for "happiness" in my view.

Also, if we do divorce AND she gets custody then I'll have little to no income. Support will be minimal while I'm in my doctoral program, and nothing if we arrange for joint custody but we'll both be responsible for their living expenses.

What I'd "let" her do? I've offered to work so she can go to school for 1.5 years now, and she wouldn't commit to going! If she wasn't going to go, then she might as well work because that's what we needed to buy the house that SHE wanted. She loved the house we live in and really wanted to buy it... I wanted to help her get it.

Hey guy, where I feel your pain, I sure am in wonderment it took a drastic action to get your attention, and she still has not gotten through to you.

Look at it from her side, she was ignored and belittled for 13 years, so unless she sees change your toast. If and only if its not too late.

What kind of thinking are you using to justify to anyone that you can take care of kids with no water, or food in your house? Again, your focusing on the wrong issues, and have been a long time.

Look its unfair to blame it all on you, as I know from experience she probably does have a few issues that didn't help things, but those you had better forget for now and deal with your situation for everyone's sake, no matter who is living where.

Correct your first mistake really fast, financial independence to enhance the welfare of your family. I doubt you can pay child support

I never said she couldn't go out or have friends over.

Of course not. That was my particular issue. I was using it as an analogy. Sorry for being unclear.


She was working 30-35 hours a week and hanging out with her friends, and little else. No one seems to hear that part of it.

Okay. We do hear this and it sounds lonely and exhausting. (Believe me, I've been there. My ex husband had a nice cushy job where he could mostly show up whenever he liked, take 1 - 3 hour lunches with friends/colleagues, and mostly schmoozed on the phone all day. Then he'd come home "tired" .) So I can definitely relate to your resentment about this.

But consider that this was basically your plan, at least if I understood you right. Wasn't it your idea that things should play out this way? If your wife is working an evening shift most nights to pay off college loans incurred for your education, you are going to have to take care of the kids.

And, second, that she wasn't seeing much of her children. If she's only home in the morning and the kids are at school, she's not going to see them much. That's really sad. It would be normal to seek some kind of contact with human beings, particularly if she was unhappy. It is normal for women to seek out and cultivate a network of friends when they are stressed. Men do this less, and are more likely to go to their wife or girlfriend for emotional support, as you are probably aware.

Finally, I am guessing she did some housework during the day, though with two people working and three kids, it's never enough, is it? Nearly all of us underestimate how much our spouses do. I think of my ex not doing much, and certainly he didn't do as much as I did, but he did do the dishes semi regularly, he did mow the lawn for a few years, he did vacuum every month or two. He dealt with the garbage without being asked. It's normal for you to be furious with your wife right now. No one can blame you for feeling angry. She dumped you after you spent your entire adult life with her. She took your family away. How could you not be angry?

But you have to separate your anger about that from an accurate assessment of what really happened in the marriage. And, more important, if you want to get along with her, you have to be able to hear what she felt and why she's left--because this is important for you to understand, whether you decide in the end that she was justified or not. I think you have been making good efforts in this direction, but it's clear to most of us here that you are frequently seeing things purely from your own perspective. Almost by definition, that's not going to give you an accurate understanding of what's going on. You are just not going to see things that are real.


Also, if we divorce then it's not a foregone conclusion that she'll get sole custody. If I move back to Fayetteville for my doctorate, then a joint custody arrangement will be what I'd accept. Once her mother starts moving around, I also suspect that if she does try to take the children from me I'll have a chance at them if I can show I'm stable... children need stability and her mother isn't going to provide it; that much I'm certain of.

There is no reason at all for her to have sole custody. You are their father and you should continue to see them regularly. I don't know how far Fayetteville is from where your wife is, but the kids will have to be in one school or another. Too much travel time, whether during the week or on weekends, would not be in their best interests. You might negotiate to take them for summers and vacations. And you can do some of the travel, by going to see them when they are not with you.

I'm so sorry you are going through this.. sounds to me as if she's being extremely selfish.Being a single parent is extremely hard with one child let alone 3. But you shouldn't let the situation keep you from your children. When my parents gots divorced my father disappeared because of the same reason. Although we do see each other now and then, its not the same. We missed out on a lot of time and now it feels as though we are total strangers. Whenever there are family events on his side, I always try to go but feel lost as if I don't belong there. Please don't make your children feel this way. At the very least call them every now and then to see how they're doing and tell them how important they are to you and how mch you love them and wish you could be there with them. As far as what happened in my own relationship. I left my child's father also, but not for me, for my son. Because my ex was a good provider yes, but he wasn't a good parent. I went out of my way to set up visits for them, and only once did I refuse to let him take my son.( I went to his house and found my son crying downstairs all by himself in a highchair at 9 months in front of a TV and his father sleeping upstairs) We took a break from overnight visits for awhile because I wasn't comfortable with it. His father would see him every week, then every two weeks and slowly faded away. Then to the point where hed call every 3 months or so and say I've been really busy but I want to see him. I'd just say let me know when and Ill bring him. My son is now 5 years old and his dad hasn't seen him at all since he was 1 and he only lives 10 minutes away. He tried to call a few months ago to say he wanted to start seeing him again, and I actually had to say no. I'm not going to put my son through that. I told him I don't want him coming in and out of our sons life. If he wants to be a dad it has to be all the time not just when he feels like it, Im not going tobe the one to say daddy isn't coming again... So please don't take out your issues with your wife on your children. I know what you mean by how the dad seems to fade away after a new relationship begins.. But he doesn't have to. You have to make your kids aware that you're there for them all the time, make plans with them, call them. The only reason these dads fade away is because they give up trying to make their presence known. The best thing for your kids is not to lose their dad.. even if there mom remarried, they still need you

Could you put your Ph.D. program on hold and get a job (with a master's) for a while? Subsidize your academic loans? (You can do this once, I believe.) Would you work at a good job while in your Ph.D. program? (You'd have to, methinks.) Talk with creditors or a credit counselor to work out something to reduce your cc amounts?

Hey guy, where I feel your pain, I sure am in wonderment it took a drastic action to get your attention, and she still has not gotten thru to you.

Look at it from her side, she was ignored and belittled for 13 years, so unless she sees change your toast. If and only if its not too late.

What kind of thinking are you using to justify to anyone that you can take care of kids with no water, or food in your house? Again, your focusing on the wrong issues, and have been a long time.

Look its unfair to blame it all on you, as I know from experience she probably does have a few issues that didn't help things, but those you had better forget for now and deal with your situation for everyones sake, no matter who is living where.

Correct your first mistake really fast, financial independence to enhance the welfare of your family. I doubt you can pay child support


If I pay child support right now, then I have to default on both my student loans AND our credit cards AND my vehicle; but I didn't plan on having my income cut in half at the drop of a hat either. I simply didn't think our situation would ever get this bad... I thought we were stable and close enough to at least communicate what the problems were and work towards a solution before our family dissolved. She agreed to wait for any kind of support if I took care of the debts, but with the low wages in my state I'd honestly make more money in college than I would at my job (sad but true; like I've posted, I took this job because we both agreed it was best for our family... it wasn't my decision alone... it was a family decision that we all agreed on, and if it wasn't then it's not my fault... I asked what everyone thought and if anyone wanted to stay in Fayetteville, and everyone agreed to move and that it would be best for us).


"What kind of thinking are you using to justify to anyone that you can take care of kids with no water, or food in your house? Again, your focusing on the wrong issues, and have been a long time."

I'm going to get a cheaper place. I've already found a cabin with all utilities paid for half what my rent alone is now. I'm going to go there at the end of February. I need to get my financial house in order or my/our credit is going to be ruined and the creditors will start calling BOTH of us.

Also, if my situation is sorry, imagine what her situation will be like once her mother tires of supporting her. She has a minimum-wage job, she lost her healthcare benefits at work because she simply quit out of the blue, she has a high-school education and 3 children to care for by herself (one with autism, which is an extra burden... let me tell you!). The only reason she's surviving is because her mother/step-father are supporting her and she lives in their house... and like I've posted a million times, they're not stable... these people move around like nomadic herdspeople... I've never seen anything like it and I worry that my children will now be forced into that unstable lifestyle because their mother can't afford to take care of them without her mother's help, and she has far fewer prospects to take care of them financially than I do. I'll get my financial house in order and then get my Ph.D. in three years, all the while making more than I do now with fewer bills... I honestly think in a few months she'll start to experience some of the hardships from the situation she's chosen, but it's going to take a little while. She hasn't felt any of the negatives from her decision yet, but once she does she might start opening up to at least communicating with me. That's also what hurts the most... want happiness? Simply get rid of Dad! Heck, they're disposable and you can always get another one... my children are growing up without a father because of her decision. They didn't want this either, and begged their mother to please not do this while she was packing. She's being extremely selfish in my opinion, and is looking out for no one but herself and what SHE wants. I'd go to counseling, I'd look at what I'd done wrong or could do better... I'm willing to work on both myself and our relationship. Difference is that she doesn't even want to talk much, though every once in a while she'll talk to me for a while about pertinent relationship details, which makes me wonder if she misses me every now and then. Come on people, it wasn't 13 years of belittling and ignoring her. For the past 8 I've been a dedicated family man. I gave up many of my dreams and goals for my family and my wife. I want to travel the world, spend a summer in Europe, have a second home in Belize, and earn my Ph.D. so I can teach and conduct research for an educational institution. I put those on hold and/or gave them up for my family and my wife.

Ok, so for now. I live 4 hours away and at this point I can't afford to drive up and see my children. However, once I get out of the house I'm currently in then I can. If I get into a Ph.D. program in Fayetteville then I'll be in a much better position to help with our children both distance-wise and financially. If I go to College Station (Texas A&M), then I'll be about 10 hours away and won't see my children but a few times a year... I don't like that idea but it would pay more...

Could you put your Ph.D. program on hold and get a job (with a master's) for a while? Subsidize your academic loans? (You can do this once, I believe.) Would you work at a good job while in your Ph.D. program? (You'd have to, methinks.) Talk with creditors or a credit counselor to work out something to reduce your cc amounts?

I have a job with my master's degree... I had to have my master's to simply apply! Still, I qualify for food stamps with my family size and only my income. The longer I put off my Ph.D. the worse it's going to get. Once I have to pay child support while I'm working, I might as well kiss that dream goodbye. Earning a Ph.D. while working is practically impossible unless the program isn't worth getting into... you get out what you put in. The other thing is that my Ph.D. program will probably pay MORE than I currently make with my "professional" master's-level job! Sad, isn't it?

I have a job with my master's degree...I had to have my master's to simply apply! Still, I qualify for food stamps with my family size and only my income. The longer I put off my Ph.D., the worse it's going to get. Once I have to pay child support while I'm working, I might as well kiss that dream goodbye. Earning a Ph.D. while working is practically impossible unless the program isn't worth getting into...you get out what you put in. The other thing is that my Ph.D. program will probably pay MORE than I currently make with my "professional" master's-level job! Sad, isn't it?
I hear what you're saying. I have a master's in counseling psych and know whereof you speak. And I live in the wealthier areas of Chicagoland. Was just ruminating...

I have a job with my master's degree...I had to have my master's to simply apply! Still, I qualify for food stamps with my family size and only my income. The longer I put off my Ph.D., the worse it's going to get. Once I have to pay child support while I'm working, I might as well kiss that dream goodbye. Earning a Ph.D. while working is practically impossible unless the program isn't worth getting into...you get out what you put in. The other thing is that my Ph.D. program will probably pay MORE than I currently make with my "professional" master's-level job! Sad, isn't it?

I hear you. I also have to admit it's humbling to be forced into selling most of my belongings and furniture and live in a one-room cabin at the KOA campground... wasn't an advanced education supposed to prevent this sort of thing? I want a refund... :(

Woah, people... read this! It made my heart skip a beat. Honest interpretations? I really DO appreciate the honesty this board offers but this is the most painful time in my life I've yet to experience.

Danielle sent you a message.

Re: This weekend

"Hello. Yes, we plan on being there this coming weekend. The children will likely be at Daddy's. Nice to have your brother there. How is he?? Ok. Thanks for the invite. I just may take you up on it. Yes, we could probably do something. I do need some time away from my troubles. They have a way of multiplying, you know. I haven't been to a casino. I did go to the horse races with Daddy. That is cool about the cabin. I know that it really sucks to move and all. Is the cabin there in town?? Yes, I do not want that either. Neither of us needs financial ruin to top everything else. I know. I too would like to have been there until June at least. Didn't work out that way though. Do you want Lacey?? I have to give her up. She would like to be with you. The children wanted me to ask. They would like to visit her still. I really need to find a good home for her. I will get back to you soon. Thank you for being nice to me.
DANIELLE."



And ANOTHER:
(here is what I sent)
You know, it just occurred to me that I also messed up with something else. When you were staying out late with your friends all the time, I should have read between the lines and tried to see WHY you didn't want to come home instead of complaining about WHAT you were doing. Maybe had I taken care of business at home and tried to work on our relationship and see what YOU needed & wanted it might have been different. If you ever give me another chance please know that I'd try to make you as happy as possible instead of complaining, and try to be the husband you needed me to be. Danielle

(Here is what she responded with)
Today at 4:09pm
THANK YOU!! I wasn't out doing anything bad. I just wanted to be away from the constant ing and complaining. It made me feel sick to be there. I just wanted to escape. That was all it was. I will be down soon. Perhaps we can nicely discuss this.?


Ok, here is my interpretation. She has to give up the cat, right? Notice the sudden change in demeanor as well when compared to the earlier emails... it almost sounds like "her troubles have a way of multiplying." Guess what I think has happened? Her situation up there is falling apart or her mother is moving "yet again" or something of that nature. She is now admitting she just wanted an escape... she now wants to nicely discuss this? I feel warm all over and starting crying almost. She wants to spend time with me this weekend. I want to take her somewhere fun so I can show her that I'm not just old and boring. I love my wife and family, people... I really do.

I really need to find a good home for her.
Now I feel bad for the cat. Can you take her to the cabin?

Now I feel bad for the cat. Can you take her to the cabin?

I'm sure of it; however, I'm going to hold off on the cabin until after this weekend's visit. She sent another email which I am posting here:



Jan 26, 2009 3:37 PM Flag as Spam or Report Abuse [?] Subject:
RE: Hello
Body:
Hi there. I thank you for all you are saying. I know this really sucks. Listen, I can't get into all this right now. Perhaps tomorrow I will get back to you at length. I just got back from working. I am very tired. [Our daughter] has been sick also. Mother took her to the dr this afternoon. I will let you know about that also. I will get back to you soon. I'm not blowing you off or anything. I just need to be left alone for a bit. Thank you for understanding.
[Wife].

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: [Me]
Date: Jan 26, 2009 10:56 AM


Just wanted to stop by and tell you how much I love and miss you. You're such a beautiful woman, you haven't aged a day. I used to get so excited about you and I miss some of the awesome sexual experiences we had together. You were AMAZING and REALLY hot... I loved those moments and love thinking about them. I've never been so excited or so satisfied as when we had great loving. Wish I would have appreciated you more and taken care of your needs, because there's no one else I want. I love you, my wife. I came across a birthday card you gave me last year and I started crying... I couldn't hold it back. You said how much living with me was being loved every day, and how you looked forward to the rest of our lives. God knows I love you more than anyone, it just won't go away and I miss our family being together. Come back home, please, and we can work on our issues. I don't want to start over after 13 years... I just want you and our family together and happy.

Love,

[Me]


These emails have a distinct change in their tone and demeanor... I hope this means she might offer another chance. It at least sounds like she'll go out on a date with me and stay the night if things go well. I'm going to do everything I can to just have a good time and enjoy my wife's company and show her I love and respect her. Anyone have any opinions or views on this apparent change? When she speaks of "troubles multiplying" it sounds to me like things are starting to turn sour up there... Like I've posted before, her mother and step-father are non-commital (the also buy pets and get rid of them every few months... I won't do that and keep our pets until they've lived out their lives... this is an example of how unstable these people are! Imagine how they are with people!).

Right now, I imagine her mother is already tiring of taking care of 3 children while my wife goes to work AND/OR they're talking about moving already... my wife is probably starting to see that maybe our lives down here were not THAT BAD... problems? Sure, I'll grant that, but nothing deserving of what happened. She also basically admitted that she just needed to get away and felt sick with the complaining and b*itching, and the current email I posted says she just needs some space for now... I can work on that people... it almost sounds like I might get another shot at this marriage thing. I'll keep everyone posted, but I also want to hear some feedback!

Now I feel bad for the cat. Can you take her to the cabin?


So, I think I might end up going to the three-bedroom one-bath home for $450 a month; maybe we need to date again? Like was posted before, I need to whisper sweet nothings and court her... that is what she really wants at this point. Like I promised, I'd work and she can stay at home with the children until August, when she can enroll in classes. In that manner, we'll be financially viable even without the extra income, and my wife, family, and I can work on our relationship. I'm going show her a REALLY good time this weekend and just try to love my wife and respect her... I'm not even going to discuss our problems.

Well I do wish you the best of luck with all of this. Keep in mind though, actions speak louder than words

Well I do wish you the best of luck with all of this. Keep in mind though, actions speak louder than words

Definitely, but I'm wanting to know what the board thinks about these emails! Good, bad, or neutral? Hopeful?

I think they are sincere and the best you can do is wait to talk to her in person like she stated she would. Trying to read into an e-mail or text message is like trying to read someone's mind. I can't tell you how many arguments I've seen happen because they took a text the wrong way. It's better to let the assumming go and wait to see how she acts in person towards you and the relationship issues.

But I do feel hopeful. I understand not wanting to read too much into it... but compared to the previous emails I've posted from her, these are DEFINITELY different and positive.

I agree with the different and positive aspect and applaud your efforts to show her that you want to change. It takes a big person to admit their mistakes and an even bigger person to take the steps to correct them.

Thanks, man... it's nice to hear. I'm hoping for the best, and I realize it still might not work out but at least she's willing to start a dialogue and spend some time with me to see if this could work out. We had a good relationship until we both started working and for the past 6-9 months we haven't been out on a single date (with just the two of us). We've just been busy, but I can promise you that if she offers a chance at reconciliation I won't make that same mistake again (but I could make 1000 others!). We'd set aside time for each other and I'll work on my complaining... we needed to get our financial house in order though, because it took every dime we had to stay in our house... we needed to downsize our home and downsize our workload. Once she finishes with school we can get or build the home we've always wanted but maybe it was too much, too soon? Obviously she didn't think the work was worth the result.

I haven't said anything because in some ways you remind me a lot of my ex husband and I didn't want that to color my advice excessively.

But you seem to have made a couple baby steps toward recognizing what needs to change on your end if you have a chance of reviving your marriage. Just don't rush anything. And don't forget that you can only change yourself.

Try to take it slow, look for cues from her on how she wants to proceed as far as physical intimacy. It's such a delicate line you'll be walking with her. So it might be a good idea to think of her as a new person that you're just getting to know. She's taken some pretty big steps to gain some independence and self worth back. So it might be helpful to welcome that. From everything, it has sounded like somewhere in the last 13 years, she lost some of her own self respect (and maybe even yours.)

And just a final thought, try not to gloat if she has hit hard times. You won't win her back if she feels like going back to you means giving up or failure. That would just further the rift and make her more determined to be by herself.

All in all, I'm pretty impressed at how much you seem to have taken to heart some pretty rough advice. You've been called on some less desirable character traits and have swallowed all of it. It sounds like you've grown from this. I wish you all the best and I really hope you can find a happy homelife.

My suggestion is, when you and your wife get together or even on the phone, you be quiet and listen to her. Don't bubble over with all your great ideas on how things can improve if we do this and that. Just do the empathy thing, be an active listener. Make those empathy noises - "Hmmmm" and "Tell me more" and "I hear you saying...." and "Good question. What do YOU think?" Practice everything you've learned so far about connecting with someone and getting inside their skin. Channel Carl Rogers.

My suggestion is, when you and your wife get together or even on the phone, you be quiet and listen to her. Don't bubble over with all your great ideas on how things can improve if we do this and that. Just do the empathy thing, be an active listener. Make those empathy noises - "Hmmmm" and "Tell me more" and "I hear you saying...." and "Good question. What do YOU think?" Practice everything you've learned so far about connecting with someone and getting inside their skin. Channel Carl Rogers.


Good advice; it'd be real easy for me to do what you said (start talking about how I'll make everything better... I need to be quiet and listen to her). I'll let everyone know how it goes, and if I receive any other emails or updates before then. I just have to say it feels better knowing that she's at least thawing out a bit... I really don't like it when she's cold or distant towards me... that's one of the things I've loved about her... she was always warm and compassionate... when she gets angry or resentful towards me, I don't like the lack of compassion that follows.

I haven't said anything because in some ways you remind me a lot of my ex husband and I didn't want that to color my advice excessively.

But you seem to have made a couple baby steps toward recognizing what needs to change on your end if you have a chance of reviving your marriage. Just don't rush anything. And don't forget that you can only change yourself.

Try to take it slow, look for cues from her on how she wants to proceed as far as physical intimacy. It's such a delicate line you'll be walking with her. So it might be a good idea to think of her as a new person that you're just getting to know. She's taken some pretty big steps to gain some independence and self worth back. So it might be helpful to welcome that. From everything, it has sounded like somewhere in the last 13 years, she lost some of her own self respect (and maybe even yours.)

And just a final thought, try not to gloat if she has hit hard times. You won't win her back if she feels like going back to you means giving up or failure. That would just further the rift and make her more determined to be by herself.

All in all, I'm pretty impressed at how much you seem to have taken to heart some pretty rough advice. You've been called on some less desirable character traits and have swallowed all of it. It sounds like you've grown from this. I wish you all the best and I really hope you can find a happy homelife.

Thank you, and no I don't plan on gloating... there's nothing to gloat about; this entire situation is a tragedy in my view. I'm just hoping she'll see that if freedom and career success is what she wants, she's taking the most difficult path I can imagine. I do want her to be happy and help her attend school... I've wanted that for her for a LONG time. Maybe working long hours at a retail chain led her to think her life wasn't going anywhere. I can relate because that's how I felt when I finally left my first job... it was at a refrigerator factory and I stayed for five years... I just couldn't take it anymore. I was burned out, I felt like I was 50 instead of 23 due to the repetitive motions, and going to school while working there full-time was almost impossible. I had to leave, regardless of the consequences and haven't had another job that paid as much or more until I started at my current job. I do understand getting burned out. Anyway, I also thank you for your advice; I should treat her like someone new and just try to have a good time and "get to know her" again. People can renew their relationships, and like I've posted before, when I made my vow I didn't mean just when it was convenient or as long as things were going well. I want to stay married to the same woman for my entire life and I'll do what it takes to stay that way (and happy, of course). This divorce business is for the lawyers and the birds...

Thank you, and no I don't plan on gloating...there's nothing to gloat about; this entire situation is a tragedy in my view. I'm just hoping she'll see that if freedom and career success is what she wants, she's taking the most difficult path I can imagine. I do want her to be happy and help her attend school...I've wanted that for her for a LONG time. Maybe working long hours at a retail chain led her to think her life wasn't going anywhere. I can relate because that's how I felt when I finally left my first job...it was at a refrigerator factory and I stayed for five years...I just couldn't take it anymore. I was burned out, I felt like I was 50 instead of 23 due to the repetitive motions, and going to school while working there full-time was almost impossible. I had to leave, regardless of the consequences and haven't had another job that paid as much or more until I started at my current job. I do understand getting burned out. Anyway, I also thank you for your advice; I should treat her like someone new and just try to have a good time and "get to know her" again. People can renew their relationships, and like I've posted before, when I made my vow I didn't mean just when it was convenient or as long as things were going well. I want to stay married to the same woman for my entire life and I'll do what it takes to stay that way (and happy, of course). This divorce business is for the lawyers and the birds...

Divorce is not a good thing, especially for any children involved. It's something I fought long and hard against but when you're the only one trying, it's next to impossible.

It's great that you're making such an effort to see things from her eyes. That will make a big difference. Too often people get trapped in seeing things just from their side and therefore miss opportunities to grow. I really am impressed at how much growth you've had in such a short time. Just don't lose sight of your goal, having your wife back in your arms.

Your children must remain foremost in your mind on this one, you WILL get through this but it will take a lot of time and THINK before you make any actions. The most important part of a relationship is to TALK and lots of it, all the time. Other wise when problems come along you don's see them. Your wife had a brill life, or so it seems, everything a modern wife could want and more so don't blame any one, things do go wrong in a marriage and you have to work on it but the only way to do it is to talk it through. Always be there to listen to her and try not to argue, always stay calm. Your children are stronger than you think and will come through this as long as you don't let them manuipulate the situation. Parents are often guilty of trying to BUY their kids love or affection to make them look like the better parent but that can have a big detrimental effect. See them as often as you can, love them, don't be afraid to cuddle them and tell them how much they mean to you. They also need to know its not them to blame for the split. Give her time to adjust and think, plenty of space and support, babysit from time to time and if you think there is someone else involved just ask her outright, lies will come out eventually so don't just assume. I hope you manage to work it out and you do right to further your career. I am a big believer in everything happens for a reason so chill out, enjoy the life you have for now. It will all come right in the end.

True, but I often think of what my pastor said years ago. If you REALLY want to take care of your children, love their mother and treat her well. In our post-1970's (divorce spiked during that time) world, we say focus on the children. True, we should focus on them... but it's also important to remember that children need healthy, loving families as well. So, love your spouse and treat them well; your children need to see that too.

Your children must remain foremost in your mind on this one, you WILL get thru this but it will take a lot of time and THINK before you make any actions. The most important part of a relationship is to TALK and lots of it, all the time. Other wise when problems come along you don's see them. Your wife had a brill life, or so it seems, everything a modern wife could want and more so don't blame any one, things do go wrong in a marriage and you have to work on it but the only way to do it is to talk it through. Always be there to listen to her and try not to argue, always stay calm. Your children are stronger than you think and will come through this as long as you don't let them manuipulate the situation. Parents are often guilty of trying to BUY their kids love or affection to make them look like the better parent but that can have a big detrimental effect. See them as often as you can, love them, dont be afraid to cuddle them and tell them how much they mean to you. They also need to know its not them to blame for the split. Give her time to adjust and think, plenty of space and support, babysit from time to time and if you think there is someone else involved just ask her outright, lies will come out eventually so dont just assume. I hope you manage to work it out and you do right to further your career. I am a big believer in everything happens for a reason so chill out, enjoy the life you have for now. It will all come right in the end.

Thanks; she says there's no one else, and other than my earlier reason for wondering I had no reason to believe it was happening. I just look forward to having her with me, even if it's for lunch, dinner, or a "date." I think we need to take some time off from having the kids and just spend some time with each other. We used to have a great time together and I do miss those days, or rather, miss the time we spent together.

Greatbignow, don't set yourself up for dissappointment. I don't think she is coming to visit, to make your marriage work. She wants to talk. She wouldn't be asking you to take the cat, if that was her intentions. I don't understand, you say you were a good Dad and took care of your children. Well so far, I am not seeing that. You haven't seen your kids in quite awhile now. IT doesn't seem like their your priority. Yes, she was your wife and still is, but you keep on going back to her, not the kids. You say you love your children and they are important to you, what I see in your paragraph above you want to spend time away from the kids and be with her. That's not someone who want's the best for their kids, to me, that's thinking of yourself. Your setting yourself up to get hurt again.

Greatbignow, don't set yourself up for dissappointment. I don't think she is coming to visit, to make your marriage work. She wants to talk. She wouldn't be asking you to take the cat, if that was her intentions. I don't understand, you say you were a good Dad and took care of your children. Well so far, I am not seeing that. You haven't seen your kids in quite awhile now. IT doesn't seem like their your priority. Yes, she was your wife and still is, but you keep on going back to her, not the kids. You say you love your children and they are important to me, what I see in your paragraph above you want to spend time away from the kids and be with her. That's not someone who want's the best for their kids, to me, that's thinking of yourself. Your setting yourself up to get hurt again.

Have you read the whole thread? There's a bit more to all of the above.

I think Sully makes a point though.

He can spend time with his wife and also spend some time with the kids while she does other things. It doesn't have to be either or.

Good point Asking... It might be an idea to keep the two separate concepts while he courts his wife though. At this point, his relationship with his wife should not change his relationship with his children. Even if he cannot see them everyday, that doesn't change the fact that he's their father and they need him.

Greatbignow, don't set yourself up for dissappointment. I don't think she is coming to visit, to make your marriage work. She wants to talk. She wouldn't be asking you to take the cat, if that was her intentions. I don't understand, you say you were a good Dad and took care of your children. Well so far, I am not seeing that. You haven't seen your kids in quite awhile now. IT doesn't seem like their your priority. Yes, she was your wife and still is, but you keep on going back to her, not the kids. You say you love your children and they are important to you, what I see in your paragraph above you want to spend time away from the kids and be with her. That's not someone who want's the best for their kids, to me, that's thinking of yourself. Your setting yourself up to get hurt again.


I haven't been up to see my kids due to financial reasons. The money simply has not been there. Yes, I'm wanting to spend time with her because that was part of the problem. She didn't feel like we had a marital-grade relationship. She doesn't just want to talk. She said that in addition to discussing these issues, she wants to go out and have a good time for a bit because "troubles have a way of multiplying." No, I don't want to get set up to be hurt again either, but these sound positive to me and I'm going to see how things go. My relationship with my children isn't what needed work; my relationship with my wife did and does. It was more like a business where we raised the children and worked (my wife's view which I concede to); there was little going on romantically or emotionally between the two of us. Sounds to me like she wants to come down and both discuss some things AND spend time with me. Maybe I can change from being a grouchy old man...

Here's the last email she sent... along with what I sent to get that response. Sounds to me like she's saying it was a desperate response but that "that's all it was." She wants to discuss why she wanted to get away and all she wanted to escape was the complaining.

You know, it just occurred to me that I also messed up with something else. When you were staying out late with your friends all the time, I should have read between the lines and tried to see WHY you didn't want to come home instead of complaining about WHAT you were doing. Maybe had I taken care of business at home and tried to work on our relationship and see what YOU needed & wanted it might have been different. If you ever give me another chance please know that I'd try to make you as happy as possible instead of complaining, and try to be the husband you needed me to be. Danielle Harford

January 26 at 4:09pm
THANK YOU!! I wasn't out doing anything bad. I just wanted to be away from the constant ing and complaining. It made me feel sick to be there. I just wanted to escape. That was all it was. I will be down soon. Perhaps we can nicely discuss this.?

You better be a good listener, learn when to shut up, and pay attention. Don't try to fix a darn thing, just listen.

You better be a good listener, learn when to shut up, and pay attention. Don't try to fix a darn thing, just listen.


I can be, and I will be.

Quick excerpt from a book review about relationships and parenting.

"While we may reach this conclusion from very different perspectives at times, what we both agree on is that sex matters... a lot. [main emphasis of mine: Parents can give their children everything, but nothing is a substitute for parental happiness. And in our opinion, sex is the glue that holds couples together and keeps lovers from simply becoming roommates or co-parents (co-parents are what my wife and I had become)]. It's also the good sticky stuff that dries up if left alone for too long. So here we are to help you keep things fluid out there, to take the charge out this once taboo issue, and put the charge back where it should be — in the bedroom."

Excerpted from "Love in the Time of Colic" by Ian Kerner, PhD, and Heidi Raykeli. Copyright (c) 2009 by Kerner-Rubisch, Inc. and Heidi Raykeil. Reprinted with permission from HarperCollins.

Good point Asking... It might be an idea to keep the two separate concepts while he courts his wife though. At this point, his relationship with his wife should not change his relationship with his children. Even if he cannot see them everyday, that doesn't change the fact that he's their father and they need him.

Yes, of course I'm their father but I have to disagree that the relationship doesn't change with your children... when you're not living with them everyday, it DOES change, and not for the better. Especially concerning my teenage step-daughter (whom I've raised since she was 1), it wouldn't surpise me to see that she questions my authority and such. The younger two maybe not so much, but they're 8 and 10. We'll see how this weekend goes.

You better be a good listener, learn when to shut up, and pay attention. Don't try to fix a darn thing, just listen.
I agree with Tal, listen!

Yes, of course I'm their father but I have to disagree that the relationship doesn't change with your children...when you're not living with them everyday, it DOES change, and not for the better. Especially concerning my teenage step-daughter (whom I've raised since she was 1), it wouldn't surpise me to see that she questions my authority and such. The younger two maybe not so much, but they're 8 and 10. We'll see how this weekend goes. It's up to you to change things with your children, and it can be for the better! They can have two loving parents, in two separate households. It's what you make of it.

It's up to you to change things with your children, and it can be for the better! They can have two loving parents, in two separate households. It's what you make of it.


I don't consider divorce a viable option. As long as my wife signals that she might be willing to talk and/or work this out, I'm going to be there for her and try to stay married. I haven't heard from her since those last messages on Monday, but they sounded hopeful to me. My only concern is that I might have misunderstood or miscontrued them. However, that's why I posted them on this board; in that manner, I've had other people & professionals looking at them with a new set of eyes. I'm assuming that my interpretation matches that of the board? She sounds willing to talk and try to work this out; at least discuss our issues? Also, I figure if she didn't want to spend the night with me and go out to dinner/date she would have made it pointedly clear. Instead, she's offering what appears to be a possibility. I plan on listening and showing her that I love her in whatever appropriate way presents itself.

One thing that will be of value is her expression when I first see her. If she smiles and appears "warm" then it's likely she misses me as well and we might have a good chance at discussing these issues. I just want my wife and children back, and I'm going to do everything reasonable to help facilitate that.

I spoke with my wife and children last night for over an hour. At first it was business and the children (their power has been out for 3 days due to an ice storm and it won't be reconnected for another 3-4 days; she's had some time to sit and think about things), but then we started talking about our relationship and issues. She made it perfectly clear that she grew resentful & hateful primarily as a result of my lack of physical intimacy with her. Wow, sexual frustration really does come to play in this situation... she has always been a "lively" woman when it comes to that activity, but I didn't think it could break our marriage. So, we'll see what happens this weekend; if it goes well then I might be warmer at night :-).

if it goes well then I might be warmer at night :-).
Perhaps it should be "I might be warmer at night, if it goes well then." Even better (without the wheeling and dealing) is "I will put fun and excitement and sexual energy into our marriage from here on -- and will regularly ask my new friends on AMHD for ideas."

I don't consider divorce a viable option. As long as my wife signals that she might be willing to talk and/or work this out, I'm going to be there for her and try to stay married. I haven't heard from her since those last messages on Monday, but they sounded hopeful to me. My only concern is that I might have misunderstood or miscontrued them. However, that's why I posted them on this board; in that manner, I've had other people & professionals looking at them with a new set of eyes. I'm assuming that my interpretation matches that of the board? She sounds willing to talk and try to work this out; at least discuss our issues? Also, I figure if she didn't want to spend the night with me and go out to dinner/date she would have made it pointedly clear. Instead, she's offering what appears to be a possibility. I plan on listening and showing her that I love her in whatever appropriate way presents itself.

One thing that will be of value is her expression when I first see her. If she smiles and appears "warm" then it's likely she misses me as well and we might have a good chance at discussing these issues. I just want my wife and children back, and I'm going to do everything reasonable to help facilitate that.

Just to be clear, no I don't agree with this. If you think the message board is supporting your interpretation, I, for one, am not.

I think you are reading too much into too little, and over the last few days you have let yourself run away with it.

I don't think that because she didn't rule things out, that she has therefore committed to doing them or is even very open to them. I feel like you are not listening to her words, which have been that she does not think it's likely that you two will get back together. If you ascribe all this intent to her without her having said any of it and you then either overwhelm her and draw her back in against her better judgement because she wants to get along or you get upset when she says no to any of your current hopes, then you are not listening to her and respecting what she has said to you. It's like you are letting your interpretation of what you think she ought to be saying supercede what she has really said. You need to get out of her head and let her think her own thoughts and tell you what she wants to say. She doesn't need you to do that for her.

I think you need to massively rein in your expectations and show more respect for the process.

Her exact expression when you meet is NOT the key to the rest of your life. If she looks down, it may be for a hundred reasons unrelated to you--bad traffic, bad news unrelated to you. If she looks warm, don't assume that means you are back on as married. This is a separate person; please stop thinking you know everything she's feeling. Also, it's normal for people married a long time to have habits of warmth at times. That's not diagnostic of your future together.

Reduce expectations of this meeting, give her space, stop trying to read her mind. Instead, hear and acknowledge what she's actually saying to you.

PS. That's not to say you shouldn't be positive and warm. But if you really want her back, let her decide what she is saying and, importantly, what she wants to do. Don't assume anything.

Just to be clear, no I don't agree with this. If you think the message board is supporting your interpretation, I, for one, am not.

I think you are reading too much into too little, and over the last few days you have let yourself run away with it.

I don't think that because she didn't rule things out, that she has therefore committed to doing them or is even very open to them. I feel like you are not listening to her words, which have been that she does not think it's likely that you two will get back together. If you ascribe all this intent to her without her having said any of it and you then either overwhelm her and draw her back in against her better judgement because she wants to get along or you get upset when she says no to any of your current hopes, then you are not listening to her and respecting what she has said to you. It's like you are letting your interpretation of what you think she ought to be saying supercede what she has really said. You need to get out of her head and let her think her own thoughts and tell you what she wants to say. She doesn't need you to do that for her.

I think you need to massively rein in your expectations and show more respect for the process.

Her exact expression when you meet is NOT the key to the rest of your life. If she looks down, it may be for a hundred reasons unrelated to you--bad traffic, bad news unrelated to you. If she looks warm, don't assume that means you are back on as married. This is a separate person; please stop thinking you know everything she's feeling. Also, it's normal for people married a long time to have habits of warmth at times. That's not diagnostic of your future together.

Reduce expectations of this meeting, give her space, stop trying to read her mind. Instead, hear and acknowledge what she's actually saying to you.

PS. That's not to say you shouldn't be positive and warm. But if you really want her back, let her decide what she is saying and, importantly, what she wants to do. Don't assume anything.


Thanks for the feedback; last night I mainly listened to her for a while and wanted to make completely sure that I wasn't taking her emails out of context or misinterpreting them. Yes, she does indeed want to see how the weekend goes and we spoke about our relationship at length. She's open to discussing it and having a good time together. I mostly listened, as I said I would.

She's open to discussing it and having a good time together. I mostly listened, as I said I would.

"Open to discussing it and having a good time together" is just that, no more. Please internalize that and not push for more.

Discussion, not conclusion.

Keep it light, have a good time; don't look for an answer this weekend.

Don't hold her to anything she says in the moment, or to be nice because you put her on the spot. Don't put her on the spot. :)

Good luck!

Just to be clear, no I don't agree with this. If you think the message board is supporting your interpretation, I, for one, am not.

I think you are reading too much into too little, and over the last few days you have let yourself run away with it.

I don't think that because she didn't rule things out, that she has therefore committed to doing them or is even very open to them. I feel like you are not listening to her words, which have been that she does not think it's likely that you two will get back together. If you ascribe all this intent to her without her having said any of it and you then either overwhelm her and draw her back in against her better judgement because she wants to get along or you get upset when she says no to any of your current hopes, then you are not listening to her and respecting what she has said to you. It's like you are letting your interpretation of what you think she ought to be saying supercede what she has really said. You need to get out of her head and let her think her own thoughts and tell you what she wants to say. She doesn't need you to do that for her.

I think you need to massively rein in your expectations and show more respect for the process.

Her exact expression when you meet is NOT the key to the rest of your life. If she looks down, it may be for a hundred reasons unrelated to you--bad traffic, bad news unrelated to you. If she looks warm, don't assume that means you are back on as married. This is a separate person; please stop thinking you know everything she's feeling. Also, it's normal for people married a long time to have habits of warmth at times. That's not diagnostic of your future together.

Reduce expectations of this meeting, give her space, stop trying to read her mind. Instead, hear and acknowledge what she's actually saying to you.

PS. That's not to say you shouldn't be positive and warm. But if you really want her back, let her decide what she is saying and, importantly, what she wants to do. Don't assume anything.

Woah, I didn't say it was the key to the rest of my life; I'm no psychic. Read it again please. Also, that's why I spoke with her at length last night; I wanted to make it perfectly clear that I was not misinterpreting ANYTHING... and said that very thing as well... However, she did say last night that she wants to talk more about these things this weekend. She didn't say no, but given the method of her departure, there wasn't any time for communication and she wasn't willing to hear anything but that I'm a horrid father and husband, and she needs to get away no matter the cost. Now that she's been away for a month, it would appear she is beginning to see that you can't really run away from your problems, and that I'm not the root of her problems. Anyway, she was very warm and open to discussing our relationship, and wants to visit and talk more this weekend. Her vehicle broke down as well, and so I'm going to have to drive up there and pick them up. She asked if I would. Now, call me silly but we're going to be driving together for a pretty long time (4 hours each way); if she wanted nothing to do with me that wouldn't even be a request and she wouldn't want to be with me for that long. So, the kids are going to stay at her dad's house and we're going to take care of some business and try to enjoy one another's company.

"Open to discussing it and having a good time together" is just that, no more. Please internalize that and not push for more.

Discussion, not conclusion.

Keep it light, have a good time; don't look for an answer this weekend.

Don't hold her to anything she says in the moment, or to be nice because you put her on the spot. Don't put her on the spot. :)

Good luck!

Understood, but also know that I asked what her intentions were last night because I don't feel like misunderstanding or misconstruing her comments. She did reveal that a major source of resentment and hatred towards me was due to a lack of sexual intimacy (over six months now). Might sound odd coming from the female partner, but I just wasn't into it and could have gone without. She is not that way, and this was revealed last night. I always figured we'd discuss our problems before they reached critical mass, which I think she also appreciated hearing. So, for what it's worth I think a lot of this was the result of sexual frustration. She also said that she could have reacted more favorably and instead of getting angry she could have been warmer and tried to find out what was wrong and communicated her desires. If you earnestly love your partner and are willing to communicate your issues, most other things work themselves out. Kind of sad to think that this all might have been avoided had I taken "care of business" in the bedroom... it's not everything, of course, but she might not have gone over the edge.

I mostly listened, as I said I would.
But did you actually take in and absorb what she said?

She did reveal that a major source of resentment and hatred towards me was due to a lack of sexual intimacy (over six months now). Might sound odd coming from the female partner, but I just wasn't into it and could have gone without.

If you read this board much you find that this is not odd, but extremely common. My impression from reading here (no stats) is that it's more often women who are sexually frustrated in a marriage than men.


Kind of sad to think that this all might have been avoided had I taken "care of business" in the bedroom... it's not everything, of course, but she might not have gone over the edge.

It IS kind of sad.

But I don't think it's respectful to say she "went over the edge." You had mentioned that this was an issue in your initial post/or early on. It's a significant issue for a lot of women.

I don't know where the idea came from that women don't like sex. I suppose it's a holdover from when there was no birth control and fear of pregnancy was an issue and intercourse was so often inflicted on them when they were unwilling. Most of the time, those don't apply anymore.

If you read this board much you find that this is not odd, but extremely common. My impression from reading here (no stats) is that it's more often women who are sexually frustrated in a marriage than men.



It IS kind of sad.

But I don't think it's respectful to say she "went over the edge." You had mentioned that this was an issue in your initial post/or early on. It's a significant issue for a lot of women.

I don't know where the idea came from that women don't like sex. I suppose it's a holdover from when there was no birth control and fear of pregnancy was an issue and intercourse was so often inflicted on them when they were unwilling. Most of the time, those don't apply anymore.

I'll rephrase that. When I say "over the edge" I mean moving the children to another school (especially our child with autism; he really doesn't tolerate change well and we usually take great pains to keep his world consistent), and leaving without ever sitting down and discussing these issues with me to try and resolve them first. I would have listened, which I hope is what she took away from our conversation last night. I WOULD HAVE LISTENED, and it might have saved a whole lot of pain and suffering, not to mention life-altering decisions... but if the partner doesn't communicate how seriously unhappy they are, then the other really has no clue and it shouldn't be assumed that they don't know or don't care (I didn't know, for that matter).

I'll have to give you that one; the stereotype of women not wanting sex runs rampant and I thought my wife was rather unusual for wanting it often. I used to really like that, but the past year it's been a chore, and the past six months I've neglected that part of our relationship altogether.

Her words,

"I understand that we get older and things slow down, but NEVER?"

Also, I only brought up that issue because it has been an obvious point of contention for her. I do want to please her, of course.

We also discussed that the last time we had "our" time was two years ago when we took a weekend to ourselves and spent the night out of town simply enjoying each other in a resort town. It was fun, and we both had a great time. That's something else we need to focus on, instead of merely working all the time and being parents. She agreed.

But I don't think it's respectful to say she "went over the edge." You had mentioned that this was an issue in your initial post/or early on. It's a significant issue for a lot of women.
And she may have missed more than the sex act. She may have missed the romance and emotional intimacy -- the pat on the arm or your hand srtroking the curve of her cheek while the two of you were driving somewhere, knowing looks exchanged (indicating you're on the same page mentally), your gentle pat on her behind as you walk past her at the sink in the kitchen, doing a slow dance in the living room while Johnny Mathis (Beyonce?) croons. That's "making love" 24/7.

Speaking of Beyonce, watch a Youtube of the Obamas dancing on Inauguration Night or just note how the Obamas act toward each other when they are together. I'm betting that's what the OP's wife would love to experience.

And she may have missed more than the sex act. She may have missed the romance and emotional intimacy -- the pat on the arm or your hand srtroking the curve of her cheek while the two of you were driving somewhere, knowing looks exchanged (indicating you're on the same page mentally), your gentle pat on her behind as you walk past her at the sink in the kitchen, doing a slow dance in the living room while Johnny Mathis (Beyonce?) croons. That's "making love" 24/7.

Speaking of Beyonce, watch a Youtube of the Obamas dancing on Inauguration Night or just note how the Obamas act toward each other when they are together. I'm betting that's what the OP's wife would love to experience.


I hear you (or, I read you... ;)). Right, it's the closeness as well... there's no arguing it: life is tough, and the world is a fairly cold place. Romantic intimacy is one of the few things that reminds us it isn't like that everywhere and all the time. Geez, this has been the longest week for me... I figure after this weekend we'll at least have a solid plan either way. Either I get a small cabin with all utilities paid by myself, or we see about merely getting a smaller house... or, we just agree to keep the communication open and see how things go with no commitment either way.

But did you actually take in and absorb what she said?


Um, I think I did.

Don't be fooled, as the lack of sex, or intimacy, between long term partners, is only a symptom of a greater problem that needs to be addressed.

Don't be fooled, as the lack of sex, or intimacy, between long term partners, is only a symptom of a greater problem that needs to be addressed.

Understood. She called this morning at about 7:30 a.m. to make sure we're still on for this weekend. It is superbowl weekend, which is important to her... she loves football; I couldn't care less about it. Still, I wanted to make sure we were both on the same page regarding this weekend. I told her that I don't want to be the only one trying to make our marriage work, and that I'm not driving a total of 16 hours just so she can pick up her stuff and move a few things into storage. She said she understood, and that her intention was to talk about our future & marriage as well and see if it could be worked out somehow. So, early tomorrow morning I'll drive 4 hours to pick her and the children up; take the children to her father's, and then come back home with her; we'll go out and have a good time, and then come back to the house; she's going to stay the night at home with me, but we'll see how sleeping arrangements work out; I have the intention of seeing what she wants to do. Personally, I miss her at night so much it hurts and want to sleep in the same bed, but I'll see what she prefers. However, I get the impression that she also might feel the same way, and once that gets started you know what's coming next... I think it would be a good thing, even if it doesn't necessarily end with her coming home. Go on a date, possibly become intimate, and determine a plan for our future; that's my goal for this weekend. It could very well end with merely deciding to do that again in a few weeks... I just don't know. We plan on discussing our relationship and hopefully reconcile some of our differences (which were never discussed), while at the same time trying to have a good time and focusing on our relationship. If all goes well, this could be a weekend of reconciliation... not sure she'd move back yet, but at least we could work on it. I'm also showing her that I'm willing to do what it takes for our family to be together and happy. Lack of intimacy was a big problem for her, and I have to say that while I enjoyed it I slipped into a depression and anxiety that made it difficult for me to respond to her or even want to try and spend time alone together. Also, I quit taking my depression medication about six months ago, which probably didn't help the situation either. I loved my wife and found her attractive (she is, in fact, an attractive woman), but I just felt too lethargic and depressed to engage in much of anything with her. We (I, primarily) were surrounded by our children all the time, and never had any time for each other. We discussed how much we used to enjoy talking to each other about various issues (politics, social issues, science, ect; we used to watch The Universe on the History Channel because we both loved the idea of space and space exploration), and we do miss having each other around to discuss these things. Even though we differ politically (she's ultra-conservative Republican, I'm a more liberal Independent; we disagree on almost every political issue there is!), we always enjoyed engaging each other in coversation. I miss my wife, plain and simple. I'm going to show her that I love her and that I want things to work out...

Seems after 13 years you would know how to make love to her mind.

And remember... channel Carl Rogers. Empathy, empathy, empathy. Active listening. Good eye contact. Effective body language. Get inside her skin. Listen to her and hear what she says. Less from you and more from her. Have some great snacks for the football game.

We will expect a report.

Seems after 13 years you would know how to make love to her mind.

Right, that's why I wrote this:

"We discussed how much we used to enjoy talking to each other about various issues (politics, social issues, science, ect; we used to watch The Universe on the History Channel because we both loved the idea of space and space exploration), and we do miss having each other around to discuss these things. Even though we differ politically (she's ultra-conservative Republican, I'm a more liberal Independent; we disagree on almost every political issue there is!), we always enjoyed engaging each other in coversation. I miss my wife, plain and simple. I'm going to show her that I love her and that I want things to work out..."

I think you miss each other, so just act like it. ( no kids huh!! )

Good luck. I have been following this from the start. I agree with wondergirl LISTEN more than you talk. ANd you don't have to be right.

Listen Validate Learn and Love. You have the drive. Now you just need to engage the tools.

Good Luck

Good luck. I have been following this from the start. I agree with wondergirl LISTEN more than you talk. ANd you dont have to be right.

Listen Validate Learn and Love. You have the drive. Now you just need to engage the tools.

Good Luck

That's one thing I've definitely learned in life; you can be right, or you can (in my case, have my family) be loved.

I don't have to be right; there's no prize for being so...

Good luck. I have been following this from the start. I agree with wondergirl LISTEN more than you talk. ANd you dont have to be right.

Listen Validate Learn and Love. You have the drive. Now you just need to engage the tools.

Good Luck

And I literally, "have the drive" because she lives 4 hours away and I have to pick her up, drop off the kids, come back here, and then take her back on Sunday while then driving back here... plenty of time to listen.

Stay the course of patience and understanding. Don't pursue, argue or even suggest. In due time she can come to her senses and return hopefully not too long before it takes its toll on the children. Also for your own financial security and that of your children, do not voluntarily offer support. Only through consulting with an attorney will you protect your children's welfare and your own financial stability. Allow emotions to drive everything will only help you get burned and hurt your children in the long term. It doesn't mean you will file for a divorce but seeking the advice of an attorney NOW will help tons in the future. Good Luck and God Bless.

Ok, the weekend has come and gone. Some good things transpired, and some not so good. For starters, we slept together, but didn't [I]sleep[I]together; it was so nice just having her next to me and being able to "snuggle" with my wife. She said that our son is angry with her and blames her for "taking my father away" which does bother her quite a bit and weighs on her mind. Some things we just had to agree to disagree, and I have to tell you I'm not happy at all about being forced to live in a 1-room cabin at the KOA campground after working hard for so many years to improve our lives. It's a lose-lose situation. If it works out, we've lost most of our belongings and furniture which will have to be replaced to the tune of thousands of dollars. If it doesn't, I lose my family. I just didn't understand why we can't try to work this out while maintaining our family's social, financial, and educational structure (also, how can we work this out if we're 4 hours away?); what is gained by tearing our family apart, and how can it possibly be justified?

She did cry a few times while we went through our belongings and threw most of them away. She said it wasn't easy and that she really doesn't like tearing our family apart, and that she panicked which led to her leaving so quickly & unpredictably. For the first time, she expressed an emotion other than anger regarding our separation (and towards me). Also, she said she hates being almost 40 and being forced to live with her parents and depend on them financially. I told her, "It doesn't have to be this way! Come home, we can go to counseling and that way at least be self-sufficient and in a position where we can deal with each other on a regular basis to see if this will work out."

She also said that if she does decide to come back, it's going to be for good and "until one or both of us are dead." I took her out to a nice pizza place (it's a hole in the wall, but they have the BEST pizza around and also serve microbrews... unlike most of the establishments around here), which she apparently enjoyed.

I also told her that while I don't expect a solid answer right now, but that as long as she doesn't confirm what she wants I'll have to make plans for the future. I've applied to two different Ph.D. programs... one close to her, and one far away. She asked when I'd need to know, because once I leave my job and head out of state I'm not turning around to come back here; it will truly be too late for me. Also, I take particular issue with whether she begins seeing anyone else; that's another line I'm not willing to cross with hopes of reconciliation... she says she has no intention of doing that sort of thing. Difficult to pack the entire weekend into a few paragraphs, but it ended with two kisses and a commitment on her part to try marriage counseling. Neither one of us wants to be miserable, or the other to be miserable. I am tired of fighting with my spouse. So, I now have the task of finding marriage counseling that won't be conducted by anyone at my place of employment (hey, some of these issues get really dicey), and I'd rather not end up having our marriage counselor being on a committee that decides whether I might get a promotion or something like that; at a small university of 3000 students that can happen.

We spoke for hours, all the while she let me hold her and love on her. I told her that my relationship with her is the single most important thing in my life (might sound odd to our divorce-generation but I firmly believe that a happy family starts with a happy/healthy marriage), and that I really want to work this out if at all possible.


In the end, she agreed to try counseling and said that she'd drive down for it and make time with her work schedule. Considering it's a 4-hour drive each way, I see that as a commitment to our marriage and family. It's not exactly what I wanted, and like I said, I really resent being forced to live like a homeless person while she gets to live with her mother rent-free in a nice home while I'm also saddled with all of our financial obligations other than groceries and the like. So, there it is; in a nutshell. Feel free to ask any other questions, and I'll likely remember and elaborate.

Why can't you put your Ph.D on hold for a year or so, and get an apt. close to her and the kids? If you want your marriage to work, as you say you do, than why opt to move out of state, and be so far away. Then you will never see the kids and her, and then probably I don't think you will ever have a chance to make your marriage work. Well you say you love her and the kids, if you do, then why would you even consider to move out of state? It doesn't make sense to me, unless I am missing something. It would help her along the way and you being so close to her and the children you would be able to see your children as much as you can. I don't understand, what there is to think about, other than moving up near her temporarily and see where that takes you.

Why can't you put your Ph.D on hold for a year or so, and get an apt. close to her and the kids? If you want your marriage to work, as you say you do, than why opt to move out of state, and be so far away. Then you will never see the kids and her, and then probably I don't think you will ever have a chance to make your marriage work. Well you say you love her and the kids, if you do, then why would you even consider to move out of state? It doesn't make sense to me, unless I am missing something. It would help her along the way and you being so close to her and the children you would be able to see your children as much as you can. I don't understand, what there is to think about, other than moving up near her temporarily and see where that takes you.

That sounds nice, but have you seen the job market and tried to find one lately? While my salary still qualifies my family of 5 for food stamps (by itself... with no one else working), it's the highest single salary we have/had coming in and I can't just move up to Fayetteville without at least being in a doctoral program with a competitive financial aid package. Since she left all the bills to me, I can't quit now unless I get a massive "bailout" haha.

I'm looking at the Ph.D. program in Texas because it actually pays out more than I bring home working full-time! Sad... just really sad but what I'm saying is that if I'm alone, I'm going to get my doctorate because I moved down here for my family (thought 30K a year salary would be adequate in Arkansas... boy was I wrong); no family, and I'm going to finish it because if we divorce then 40% of my take-home pay is for child support. I'd be STUCK at this job with no prospects for finishing my education, and I'd be earning practically minimum wage once you take out all my deductions... a master's degree and living on Ramen noodles and $900 a month? Surely you can see the misery of that situation.

Why can't you put your Ph.D on hold for a year or so, and get an apt. close to her and the kids? If you want your marriage to work, as you say you do, than why opt to move out of state, and be so far away. Then you will never see the kids and her, and then probably I don't think you will ever have a chance to make your marriage work. Well you say you love her and the kids, if you do, then why would you even consider to move out of state? It doesn't make sense to me, unless I am missing something. It would help her along the way and you being so close to her and the children you would be able to see your children as much as you can. I don't understand, what there is to think about, other than moving up near her temporarily and see where that takes you.

Also, just to clarify...

Ph.D. applicants typically apply about a year before they matriculate to the school and actually begin classes... as it is, I'm really pushing the deadline for fall 2009 as it is, and if I don't get into one for fall 2009 I'll have to retake the GRE (think: torture) because my scores will be five years old. So, I wouldn't begin until August 2009, which is quite a ways away. If I waited a full year, I wouldn't look at getting in until August of 2010...

I lived on Ramen noodles, for quite along time. I worked three jobs for quite a few years, with 75 a week child support and two kids. But I did it, just because I did it for my kids. I would drive from one job to another 45 minutes away.Because my kids came first to me. I could never leave their side, ever. That's what I don't understand, you would still opt to move away, and think of your career. Sorry but I think that is selfish. I don't want to sound mean or anything, but your thnking of yourself and what's good for you. I am very well aware of the job market, but I am sure if you chose someplace closer to the kids and her, your life would turn for the better. The farther you go away from her and your children they will drift away from you, and you will never have a chance of reconciliation with your wife and the kids. They will miss having a father around.

I lived on Ramen noodles, for quite along time. I worked three jobs for quite a few years, with 75 a week child support and two kids. But I did it, just because I did it for my kids. I would drive from one job to another 45 minutes away.Because my kids came first to me. I could never leave their side, ever. That's what I don't understand, you would still opt to move away, and think of your career. Sorry but I think that is selfish. I don't want to sound mean or anything, but your thnking of yourself and what's good for you. I am very well aware of the job market, but I am sure if you chose someplace closer to the kids and her, your life would turn for the better. The farther you go away from her and your children they will drift away from you, and you will never have a chance of reconciliation with your wife and the kids. They will miss having a father around.


I'm glad you can sympathize and have been in a similar situation, that does help. They already miss their Daddy dreadfully, and according to my wife, our son has expressed anger and resentment towards her for "stealing" his Daddy away. Our daughters have expressed that they miss me as well, but I didn't expect our son (who is autistic) to take any of this very well. I've no doubt that he's having a lot of trouble in school and possibly at home as well. The only thing I can see good about it is that their grandmother is there to help take care of them on a daily basis, and having an "extra" set of parents was also important to me when I was a child and my parents divorced... the security that my grandparents provided did help to alleviate some of the pain and confusion of the divorce; I was too young to remember and still in diapers, but my mother left my father and took us both with her while he was at work... she moved back to California and lived with her parents... all I remember is that I never grew up in a household with two loving parents until I met my foster parents at age 16. I went to a substance abuse treatment center (extremely intensive and long-term.. but it saved my life and is helping now), and lived with a family who also had a son in the program. I still write and visit them, and I consider them my family as well. My father and stepmother appeared to have more of a business-type agreement and they never seemed very happy together; she took care of the home and kids while he went to medical school... they divorced after 25 years of marriage, and she is now working a dead-end job without any of the former benefits of being the doctor's wife... money wasn't that important to her until she lost it all! Funny how that works...

Anyway, I digress...

I hear you about moving up there and trying to reconcile while being near my children. My wife has agreed to attend marriage counseling with me, which is definitely a step in the right direction. Three weeks ago she wouldn't entertain the idea, so I'm not sure what's happened but apparently she's calmed down and decided that maybe our marriage and family IS worth trying to save. She also admitted that she panicked and left in a much hastier manner than she should have. I'm hopeful that it can probably be worked out, but I'm not willing to give up my job unless a better one has been secured, which is questionable when our unemployment and underemployment rates are at historic highs. I don't want to move to College Station, but the program will pay more than I bring home now and if I'm divorced there's no point in staying here... I'll take any opportunity I can get in order to leave Arkansas... I really don't like it here, I'm not originally from here (California originally) and won't stay here if I'm divorced. It might be selfish, but I'm not going to be a martyr and "die for the cause" of being near my children. They can visit me in College Station just as much as they can being 4 hours away, and I'll have the added benefit of earning my Ph.D. so that I can teach on the university level and hopefully double my salary. What I'm not willing to do is throw away a secure job during an economic downturn; that is foolish to the nth degree! I told my wife she's welcome to come home and attend nursing school; once she's finished then we can move wherever (I had hoped she'd finish nursing school and then she can work while I finish my Ph.D.; it'd be a comfortable living... I'm tired of being a poor college student!) but a) we can't both attend school at the same time if we live together b) I'm not leaving my job unless I've found something better. If she ran away from here, what reassurances do I have that she won't do it again and leave me in dire straits WITHOUT an income or full-time job? But that's just it; her rhetoric and demeanor have changed dramatically and she even kissed me goodbye twice on Sunday while hugging me.

My interpretation? She loves me as much as I do her, but we have issues and we're both tired of arguing all the time. I'll go from being happy with her to frustrated in about 2 seconds. Certain things, like the fact that she doesn't pick up after herself, frustrate the hell out of me because I like keeping things clean and neat... she just doesn't care, and will let dishes pile up, laundry pile up, and throw clothing all over the room for weeks at a time... when I pick it up, she complains about it and demands that I leave everything of hers alone. I also pick up her shoes constantly, because she'll leave 4-6 pairs on the floor even though she has a shoe rack hanging on her closet door. It's things like these that we argue over, in addition to the lack of physical intimacy.

Greatbignow;1527515My father and stepmother appeared to have more of a business-type agreement and they never seemed very happy together; she took care of the home and kids while he went to medical school... they divorced after 25 years of marriage, and she is now working a dead-end job without any of the former benefits of being the doctor's wife..

Too bad your mother didn't go to medical school herself. Then she wouldn't have had to choose. I have a friend who just left her MD husband. Fortunately, she's an MD too. And unlike him, she doesn't have trouble keeping a job.


Three weeks ago she wouldn't entertain the idea, so I'm not sure what's happened but apparently she's calmed down and decided that maybe our marriage and family IS worth trying to save.

I note your arrogant and sarcastic tone here, once again demonstrating your lack of respect and love.


I'm divorced there's no point in staying here... I'll take any opportunity I can get in order to leave Arkansas... I really don't like it here, I'm not originally from here (California originally) and won't stay here if I'm divorced. It might be selfish, but I'm not going to be a martyr and "die for the cause" of being near my children.


I think that pretty much says it all. You aren't listening to any of the advice given here. Your sense of entitlement is palpable.


I'll go from being happy with her to frustrated in about 2 seconds.

You have to stop doing that. No one should have to live with that. Not your wife, not your children, not anyone else you end up with.


... she just doesn't care, and will let dishes pile up, laundry pile up... I also pick up her shoes constantly, because she'll leave 4-6 pairs on the floor even though she has a shoe rack hanging on her closet door. It's things like these that we argue over, in addition to the lack of physical intimacy.

So was there a connection? You wouldn't make love to her because the house was messy? Also, I thought you said earlier that the dishes and laundry were something you did. Did you also not do these chores regularly?

P.S. I have a master's degree and I eat a lot of Ramen.
Also, I think the various boot camps you went through were terrible for you. You have internalized the idea that people can be "fixed" through coercion and emotional violence.

Wow, apparently we're looking at these statements through very different lenses. On the chores, I HAD BEEN doing those (almost like you don't believe me?). I was talking about the past on the dishes, but with the room, yes that was recent. I don't want to be stuck in a poverty state for the rest of my life, especially alone. How is that a sense of entitlement? To want things like a future and a salary I can actually live on isn't asking too much... I really think that's an unfair judgment on your part. Have you seen the poverty in rural Arkansas or lived around it? How about being STUCK in it and never having a chance of leaving? There are few opportunities here... Governor Huckabee once described Arkansas as being "...like a third-world country." The only place I've seen that compares would be the slums in Mexico... it's not that far off in the hardest-hit areas.

I'm getting ready to move out of our home and live in a CABIN at a CAMPGROUND... how in the hell is that a sense of entitlement? It sucks, is was it does. And I'm not going to condemn myself to that kind of existence for the indefinite future just so I can live 4 hours away from my wife and children. They can move down here as well.

I'll bet, just from what you've written on this post, you a lousy listener, ( if you listened) and treated your wife and family like objects, that you tried to mold to your own standards.

I'll bet, just from what you've written on this post, you a lousy listener, ( if you listened) and treated your wife and family like objects, that you tried to mold to your own standards.

You know, earlier I took the observations into consideration and tried to use them appropriately. Now you're just being insulting and essentially demanding I live in poverty and like it. My wife and I are trying to work out our issues, but some posters on the board are apparently not listening either. I might be done here, because the feedback is starting to sound downright condescending and rude. You bet I'm a lously listener? Gee, thanks, how is that supposed to be helpful?

I treat my family like objects that I try to mold to my own standards? You've gone too far with that one. It's incorrect, insulting, and sounds fairly hateful.

I lived on Ramen noodles, for quite along time. I worked three jobs for quite a few years, with 75 a week child support and two kids. But I did it, just because I did it for my kids. I would drive from one job to another 45 minutes away.Because my kids came first to me. I could never leave their side, ever. That's what I don't understand, you would still opt to move away, and think of your career. Sorry but I think that is selfish. I don't want to sound mean or anything, but your thnking of yourself and what's good for you. I am very well aware of the job market, but I am sure if you chose someplace closer to the kids and her, your life would turn for the better. The farther you go away from her and your children they will drift away from you, and you will never have a chance of reconciliation with your wife and the kids. They will miss having a father around.

She's the one who left. Why should I move and leave my job? It might not pay much, but it's all I have and quite a few people are unemployed or working in fast-food right now. I'm not going to take that risk... she could move back if she wanted to.

I'll bet, just from what you've written on this post, you a lousy listener, ( if you listened) and treated your wife and family like objects, that you tried to mold to your own standards.

"Never make a person a priority in your life, while allowing them to make you an option in theirs."

THIS is what I'm doing by looking into moving and completing my education. I'm not going to be an option and move around to follow her and the children when it will mean further financial disaster for me. That sounds pitiful and codependent to me... if the divorce happens, I'm "moving on" and taking care of myself first... why chase someone around the state and country? If she wants to come home, she will, but I'm not going to chase them around and lose my job over it.

She's the one who left. Why should I move and leave my job? It might not pay much, but it's all I have and quite a few people are unemployed or working in fast-food right now. I'm not going to take that risk...she could move back if she wanted to.

Why should you move and leave your job? Because of your children! I don't get it. Your children need you, but your not listening to what your wife says, they miss you. Does that mean anything to you? Evidently it doesn't, because you wouldn't choose your career over them. Their acting out, they want their father,and you want what's good for you, and not what's best for them. I have a great nephew who is severely autistic, who is 8 years old, and his father travels 1 1/2hours away to his job, and travels everyday to Washington DC, and they live in Pennsylvania, just so his son goes to one of the best schools for autisim. He travels everyday that far too work, because its for his son. I am sorry, you say how much you love your children, but you have a poor way of showing it. It seems all this time, its all about you and what you want.

That attitude will keep you from your family. So get ready to move on, and be a doctor, or whatever your going to be. Why not set your family free, and stop all this back and forth?

You have been using the same argument for twenty pages, but have not budged unless its going to be your way.

Let us know how that works for you.

Personally, a healthy marriage should be a good place for both to grow, and share, and care.

Sorry, just don't see it here.

That attitude will keep you from your family. So get ready to move on, and be a doctor, or whatever your going to be. Why not set your family free, and stop all this back and forth??

You have been using the same argument for twenty pages, but have not budged unless its going to be your way.

Let us know how that works for you.

Personally, a healthy marriage should be a good place for both to grow, and share, and care.

Sorry, just don't see it here.

I agree Tal with you. He doesn't have it in him to do that.

That attitude will keep you from your family. So get ready to move on, and be a doctor, or whatever your going to be. Why not set your family free, and stop all this back and forth??

I've been thinking the same thing.

basically, greatbigbow you are a right fighter. You think you are right and are not going to cave until everyone is on page with you. You are making plans to where if they do not agree with you, what you will do.

Are you wrong, no. Is your wife, probably not. Do you see eye to eye? No and that is why you are separated.

With that said, it is only for you to decide what will happen from here on out. Your decisions seem to be economic in nature, and future directed. Okay, if that works for you, those are important things.

What everyone is trying to say, you have the economics down... but what about the effect of being without your influence in your children's lives. Okay so you show them fiscal responsibility but they live with the absence of your daily influence. Is that the price you want to pay? You talk about how bad your wife's families decision making processess are but you are willing to leave your children with them so that their influence everpresent in their lives.

See where I am going. And what has all the responders so upset is they agree with the values you place on what you describe on her family but you do not feel your children are worth stepping up to the plate for.

And the common theme of most of your repsonses is how can I fix my wife. How can I fix this marriage and fix her to see things my way. Look at what I am offering them and why can she not take it... how stupid can she be.

What you need to be doing is listening to what she wants. Maybe it is the same as you... but maybe not. Stop throwing what she is giving up by not being with you in her face. Stop telling her how miserable your econoic situation is with out her.

Do I think you are a bad guy, NO. Do I think she is making mistakes, YES. But you two need a mediator to get each other to listen to what each has to say and sit on each of your to hear what the other is saying. You need someone to help you with perspective in what you are proposing to do and you need to listen, really listen to that perspective.

Why should you move and leave your job? Because of your children! I don't get it. Your children need you, but your not listening to what your wife says, they miss you. Does that mean anything to you? Evidently it doesn't, because you wouldn't choose your career over them. Their acting out, they want their father,and you want what's good for you, and not what's best for them. I have a great nephew who is severly autistic, who is 8 years old, and his father travels 1 1/2hours away to his job, and travels everyday to Washington DC, and they live in Pennsylvania, just so his son goes to one of the best schools for autisim. He travels everyday that far too work, because its for his son. I am sorry, you say how much you love your children, but you have a poor way of showing it. It seems all this time, its all about you and what you want.


I'm really not trying to be defensive or have a poor attitude, but I don't think you truly understand how miserable and poverty-stricken this area of the country is. Would you quit your job and work for minimum wage? That's likely what I'd be doing. I won't do it. My children also need their father to earn a wage that can support them... don't forget about that one. Being together and on welfare vs. being apart and having at least some reasonable standard of living? Appreciate your taking time to respond, as well as the other posters as well, but I don't think you understand.

It sounds like you've made up your mind.

You know...

What your wife may be looking for here is that you put her and the kids before yourself and your education and your career.

Just once.

That attitude will keep you from your family. So get ready to move on, and be a doctor, or whatever your going to be. Why not set your family free, and stop all this back and forth??

You have been using the same argument for twenty pages, but have not budged unless its going to be your way.

Let us know how that works for you.

Personally, a healthy marriage should be a good place for both to grow, and share, and care.

Sorry, just don't see it here.

I'm not the one who destroyed our family and finances without so much as sitting down and talking to their spouse about it. I'm not the one who ruined Christmas for their children by leaving their father 3 days before Christmas and couldn't wait at least a week or two (her primary complaints? I'm not having sex with her often enough, I'm boring, and I complain too much); I'm not the one who put my daughter's orthodontics treatment (braces) in jeapordy because I QUIT my job that had orthodontics insurance! What she did was foolish, impulsive, and selfish! She has made life much harder on ALL OF US because she wouldn't or couldn't go to work every day and support our family even when I took care of most domestic duties! I stayed right where I am, and did the responsible thing like GO TO WORK every day and try to take care of business. Even if I was miserable or had an emotional breakdown or mid-life crisis, I wouldn't all the sudden screw everyone's life up because I can't "hack" it. What if I did this to my wife and left her in financial straits? What would the board be saying about me then? Instead, I'm the bad guy because I have the tenacity and temerity to stick with things, even when they become difficult? I would NEVER drop my job or leave my family like she did; being a father also means getting up and going to work everyday to pay the bills, no matter how you feel emotionally.

One thing probably is correct though, the boot camp did change me for the worse in some respects. I don't think I could possibly explain enough to do justice to the kinds of degrading and inhumane things that transpire within Arkansas correctional facilities. It killed most of what was fun and light-hearted within me. In some ways it made me more responsible and focused, regardless of what is going on around me but I still feel like some part of me died in there.

Regardless, I received a phone call from my wife this morning. Guess what? Her mother and step-father made it clear that she and the children are just too much for them; they're moving again as well! While I love my wife and children and of course want them home and will welcome them back, I want to use this as an example of how unstable and unrealistic these people are. My children would be moving around every 3-6 months OR LESS and changing schools just as often. Why in the world should I leave my steady job that will allow my wife to go to college PRACTICALLY FOR FREE and essentially cater to people who simply are not reliable? I'm not going to put my pearls before swine, as it were. I'm certainly not wealthy, but I'm not poor either (statistically anyway), and I'm not going to risk ruining everyone's lives financially just to suit someone's wishes. Guess what? Life is hard, and one would be wise to hold on to whatever good things they have. That said, we are going to go to counseling, but I want the board to understand that this isn't all my fault and I don't appreciate any accusations alluding to that argument.Could I be a better listener? Probably; heck, there's always room for improvement, but the WAY it was stated was rude and the poster knows it. It wasn't intended to be helpful, but rather degrading.

It sounds like you've made up your mind.

Would you move here and work at the local Taco Bell? Would you? I doubt it.

I would if it had to do with someone I was deeply in love with and kids that I loved with all my heart. I would never choose anything over my family.

You know....

What your wife may be looking for here is that you put her and the kids before yourself and your education and your career.

Just once.

I am; that's why I also reassured her that if she came home we'd get a smaller, cheaper, and more efficient house so she can go to nursing school and not have to work. That IS putting her before myself. Personally? I'd like to finish my doctorate but I will put it on hold for her. What I won't do is follow her up to Fayetteville and give up my job to do it. It sounds like some of the posters are telling me to give up everything to follow her around and show her she's important to me. Well, she is important to me but I'm going to be logical and reasonable about these things too. Why give up what you have worked so hard for after she essentially ran away? I'll be here when she comes back, but I almost think she needed to go up there to realize that our lives down here were not that bad (she agreed with that one as well). Perfect? No. In need of work on our relationship and communication? Sure. How I missed that she was miserable enough to leave like she did is beyond me. I have to "read" clients/students on a daily basis, but I missed what was going on at home.

Like I posted before, we had planned on her returning to school once our debts allowed us to do so. Was it a ploy to keep her subjugated and servile? Of course not! We have bills to pay, and to live in the house she wants to it takes two paychecks. Once our debts are paid down then we can look at having a lower income. Ok, I'm done for today.

You are incredibly angry with your wife, for more than just leaving.

She's probably pretty angry at you right now, too, for dictating how HER life will be. Regardless of the losses, sometimes you just can NOT stay at a job you hate. Life is too short to spend 1/3 of it hating what you're doing.

And honey--your WIFE worked at a dead-end, minimum wage job for YOU, so that YOU could go to school. Why wouldn't you be willing to do the same for her?

So was there a connection? You wouldn't make love to her because the house was messy? Also, I thought you said earlier that the dishes and laundry were something you did. Did you also not do these chores regularly?


Actually, I have to say there IS a connection. I can't get "in the mood" when the laundry is overflowing and everything is messy. That's VERY true of me. All of that has to be in order first or I just don't feel right. Not sure there's anything wrong with that though.

I am; that's why I also reassured her that if she came home we'd get a smaller, cheaper, and more efficient house so she can go to nursing school and not have to work. That IS putting her before myself. Personally? I'd like to finish my doctorate but I will put it on hold for her. What I won't do is follow her up to Fayetteville and give up my job to do it. It sounds like some of the posters are telling me to give up everything to follow her around and show her she's important to me. Well, she is important to me but I'm going to be logical and reasonable about these things too. Why give up what you have worked so hard for after she essentially ran away? I'll be here when she comes back, but I almost think she needed to go up there to realize that our lives down here were not that bad (she agreed with that one as well). Perfect? No. In need of work on our relationship and communication? Sure. How I missed that she was miserable enough to leave like she did is beyond me. I have to "read" clients/students on a daily basis, but I missed what was going on at home.


yes--but it's still IF she came home. You're not willing to put her first if she doesn't. You're not willing to put HER needs first--by sticking around even if things aren't going the way YOU want them to.

Your doctorate, your doctorate, your doctorate. I've heard more about THAT than I have about your kids, frankly. You make it sound like you're making this HUGE sacrifice for your wife by putting off your doctorate. I bet you any money that she'd be happy to NOT hear about your doctorate AT ALL, not ONE WORD until after she has her Master's. Can you shut up about it that long? Can you put your family before your wants long enough for her to get what SHE wants?

I know for a FACT that my husband would drop school, his job, and his wants if I left like your wife did and ran to my parents. He'd quit his job, get a job doing ANYTHING, live in a crappy apartment, all for the CHANCE to make things work between us. He WOULD bankrupt us to do it, too, if that's what it took. And we don't even have kids in the equation!

No, you're not a bad guy. You're just self-centered from everything I've read, and you're waaaaaaay too focused on material things.

I would if it had to do with someone I was deeply in love with and kids that i loved with all my heart. i would never choose anything over my family.

But that's just it; you don't have to choose. Heck, I could cut out my heart and give it to her on a plate to prove my love for her, but that's darn foolish too... I'd only love her for a few minutes before everything went black. Love? Sure... but don't be foolish either. You shouldn't HAVE to give up things like that for people you love. I wouldn't ask her to do the same. That's like asking her to drop out of nursing school because I want to live somewhere else... there's a way to work that out without sacrificing yourself needlessly.

You are incredibly angry with your wife, for more than just leaving.

She's probably pretty angry at you right now, too, for dictating how HER life will be. Regardless of the losses, sometimes you just can NOT stay at a job you hate. Life is too short to spend 1/3 of it hating what you're doing.

And honey--your WIFE worked at a dead-end, minimum wage job for YOU, so that YOU could go to school. Why wouldn't you be willing to do the same for her?


Just to be clear; I worked at several dead-end, minimum wage jobs so I could go to school. Until the last year of grad school she stayed at home with the children... which of course I realize is a full-time job in itself that has no set hours. I've been taking care of our children as their primary caretaker over the past year, so I do appreciate it.

Another correction, I AM willing to do the same. That's why I agreed to stay here for the next 4 years and let her finish the educational program of her choice. She voiced wanting to teach middle-school science because we'd have quite a few of the same holidays and time off... "family time." She recently decided to go into nursing. Also, it's going to be almost completely free and there won't be any additional student loan debt because of it... how can we go wrong?

yes--but it's still IF she came home. You're not willing to put her first if she doesn't. You're not willing to put HER needs first--by sticking around even if things aren't going the way YOU want them to.

Your doctorate, your doctorate, your doctorate. I've heard more about THAT than I have about your kids, frankly. You make it sound like you're making this HUGE sacrifice for your wife by putting off your doctorate. I bet you any money that she'd be happy to NOT hear about your doctorate AT ALL, not ONE WORD until after she has her Master's. Can you shut up about it that long? Can you put your family before your wants long enough for her to get what SHE wants?

I know for a FACT that my husband would drop school, his job, and his wants if I left like your wife did and ran to my parents. He'd quit his job, get a job doing ANYTHING, live in a crappy apartment, all for the CHANCE to make things work between us. He WOULD bankrupt us to do it, too, if that's what it took. And we don't even have kids in the equation!

No, you're not a bad guy. You're just self-centered from everything I've read, and you're waaaaaaay too focused on material things.

She IS coming home. Her mother and step-father are kicking her out because the responsibility of her and the children is simply too much for them, and they don't think her reasons for leaving and uprooting the children are justified. I figure they waited to say anything about it until after the past weekend because they expected her to come home that weekend and possibly not come back. Her own mother doesn't think she made a good decision by leaving. How's THAT one for evidence that I'm not a bad husband?

I know for a FACT that my husband would drop school, his job, and his wants if I left like your wife did and ran to my parents. He'd quit his job, get a job doing ANYTHING, live in a crappy apartment, all for the CHANCE to make things work between us. He WOULD bankrupt us to do it, too, if that's what it took. And we don't even have kids in the equation

Maybe so, but surely you wouldn't force your husband to do so... especially on a whim? What if you told him you're leaving your job to join a cult and take over the world... would he do that without thinking or flinching? How about quitting your job and getting into disco dancing for a living? Exotic dancing? Professional binge-drinking (ok, I made that one up)? Point is, you WOULDN'T put such a strain on your relationship or MAKE your husband do such a foolish thing UNLESS it really was important. I wouldn't do that to my wife, either.

Your choice, make your family happy, or, lose your family.............again. What's so hard about that?

Sorry you don't like to be called a bad listener, but you are, and the proof is in this thread, where you have argued everyone down for the last 20 some pages.

I can just imagine what you do with your wife, and its telling when you can't make love to your woman unless the laundry is done. That's you though, highly stubborn, and unreasonable, and unbending. Trust me, that's a recipe for being alone, and not a sign of being able to care and share, but control.

There will always be conflicts, and clashes with your position, as again these post should have shown you that your position is hard to swallow and we all sympathize with your wife.

If you were a good a listener, as you are an arguer of your position, your wife wouldn't have left you, just because you'd be working together to solve your issues, through caring and compromise.

If you remain rigid in your demands, and positions, and are unwilling to compromise, kiss your family good bye.

If I didn't have empathy for you, and your family, I would be ignoring your a$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your choice, make your family happy, or, lose your family.............again. Whats so hard about that?

Sorry you don't like to be called a bad listener, but you are, and the proof is in this thread, where you have argued everyone down for the last 20 some pages.

I can just imagine what you do with your wife, and its telling when you can't make love to your woman unless the laundry is done. Thats you though, highly stubborn, and unreasonable, and unbending. Trust me, thats a recipe for being alone, and not a sign of being able to care and share, but control.

There will always be conflicts, and clashes with your position, as again these post should have shown you that your position is hard to swallow and we all sympathize with your wife.

If you were a good a listener, as you are an arguer of your position, your wife wouldn't have left you, just because you'd be working together to solve your issues, thru caring and compromise.

If you remain rigid in your demands, and positions, and are unwilling to compromise, kiss your family good bye.

If I didn't have empathy for you, and your family, I would be ignoring your a$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then they can leave, and you can certainly ignore me. Obviously I came here for help or I wouldn't have posted the question here, but I'm OK with being ignored. I think this thread is finished. She's coming back, and I'm not going to put myself in a financial or emotional position to be hurt like that again. I'd be happier alone. I almost took out a 30-year mortgage with a woman who wouldn't stay at her job. I'm not going to have my life ruined, and she can go be with people just as whimsical and unstable as she is.

This is getting old.

Either fish or cut bait. Either start talking to your wife and actually listen to what she has to say or wave bye bye.

You're wasting our time. You asked for advice, we gave it, you refuse to listen. If you think you know everything, then why are you asking for advice?

You're obviously just going to do what you want, so do it and get it over with. Stop complaining when your methods don't work.

This is a dead end, I think we've all come to a stand still, including you and your wife. She's not willing to put up with it, and why should she?

It's your way or the highway, you've made that clear. If it was me, I'd choose the highway.

Either start listening to what we say with an open mind, or stop wasting space here.

That's my opinion, but I know you won't agree.

Maybe I missed it, but how old are you? Is there a trusted male figure, like your father you can talk to??

Then they can leave, and you can certainly ignore me. Obviously I came here for help or I wouldn't have posted the question here, but I'm ok with being ignored. I think this thread is finished. She's coming back, and I'm not going to put myself in a financial or emotional position to be hurt like that again. I'd be happier alone. I almost took out a 30-year mortgage with a woman who wouldn't stay at her job. I'm not going to have my life ruined, and she can go be with people just as whimsical and unstable as she is.

Honestly, you don't deserve her! Any man or so called husband as you say you are, that degrades his wife, like you do, calling her whimsical and unstable, actually makes me sick to my stomach. She be crazy to go back to you, and if she does like you say she is, she won't be around long. Your wife needs to find a man that will put her needs first, instead of me, me, me!

GreatBIgBow, Go back and watch the reruns of Dharma and Gregg and then see how two opposing philosophies can co-exist when no one has to be right and there is respect for both. When your wife comes back, sit down and set some goals. Ones you both want (dont bully her into yours) - maybe two. Two you want and then let her chose two she wants. Make sure you both are willing to commit to these and go forward from there. Give and take. ANd she will not feel so dominated.

I've been reading this thread since GBN's first post and am seeing his "big picture" and her "details" -- his "forest" and her "trees," his umbrella of security protecting him from the elements and her not worried about raindrops splashing on her unprotected head. I could go on and on with comparisons...

I'm married to someone like GBN. Security is everything. How we save money or spend it is in almost every sentence he speaks. I know why my husband is that way and have learned to roll with it, to use it to the family's advantage. I wonder if there is something in the OP's past that causes him to focus on security to the point that it makes him appear so egocentric, so self-involved. Realizing why he is this way (and it's not a bad thing, but just comes out badly) might help him as he and his wife try to come to some agreement.

This is getting old.

Either fish or cut bait. Either start talking to your wife and actually listen to what she has to say or wave bye bye.

You're wasting our time. You asked for advice, we gave it, you refuse to listen. If you think you know everything, then why are you asking for advice?

You're obviously just going to do what you want, so do it and get it over with. Stop complaining when your methods don't work.

This is a dead end, I think we've all come to a stand still, including you and your wife. She's not willing to put up with it, and why should she?

It's your way or the highway, you've made that clear. If it was me, I'd choose the highway.

Either start listening to what we say with an open mind, or stop wasting space here.

That's my opinion, but I know you won't agree.

It wasn't a liberal arts degree; an undergraduate in psychology & history, and a master's degree in counseling. I've also spent several years working as an alcohol & drug abuse counselor. I did come here for advice; some good advice was presented but I think some of the posters started putting out more than just accountability and good advice. It's not "my way or the highway" but I'm not going to be codependant and get suckered into ruining my life. If she wants to be unstable and uproot the children while becoming underemployed or unemployed, she can do it alone. I'll be here when the adventure is over, but I've had my own adventures years ago and I'm not that foolish anymore. Rash and foolish decisions typically come back to haunt us, and I know that for a fact. I've been fortunate to have what little I do, and I'm not going to give it up.

It wasn't a liberal arts degree; an undergraduate in psychology & history, and a master's degree in counseling. I've also spent several years working as an alcohol & drug abuse counselor. I did come here for advice; some good advice was presented but I think some of the posters started putting out more than just accountability and good advice. It's not "my way or the highway" but I'm not going to be codependant and get suckered into ruining my life. If she wants to be unstable and uproot the children while becoming underemployed or unemployed, she can do it alone. I'll be here when the adventure is over, but I've had my own adventures years ago and I'm not that foolish anymore. Rash and foolish decisions typically come back to haunt us, and I know that for a fact. I've been fortunate to have what little I do, and I'm not going to give it up.

This entire post just shows that it is indeed your way or the highway, her dreams, her thoughts, they don't matter to you.

I don't care how many degrees you have, that doesn't make you a better person, husband or father. Do you want me to list my degrees, it doesn't make my advice more or less than anyone else's.

You're right, if she wants to be "unstable" and "underemployed" then it is her decision, because you won't listen. If you did listen, agreed to compromise, then she might stay. You refuse to do this, so I can't blame her if she leaves.

For you the adventure is over, perhaps for her it's just beginning. If her decisions are rash and foolish, well that's her choice. You aren't her keeper, you're supposed to be her partner.

It seems to me like you've already decided what you're going to do, now you get to wait and see what she decides. Personally, I could never stay with a man that wants to control my every action, it's not in my nature.

I can only wish you luck, seeing as you won't listen to anyone's advice.

Maybe so, but surely you wouldn't force your husband to do so...especially on a whim? What if you told him you're leaving your job to join a cult and take over the world...would he do that without thinking or flinching? How about quitting your job and getting into disco dancing for a living? Exotic dancing? Professional binge-drinking (ok, I made that one up)? Point is, you WOULDN'T put such a strain on your relationship or MAKE your husband do such a foolish thing UNLESS it really was important. I wouldn't do that to my wife, either.

I did fight for them. I told my wife that the children needed to be back in school in our home town by the time it resumed on January 5th, to which she replied that she would do everything in her power, as well as her family's power to fight me and that "[You] really don't want to open that can of worms." Father's rarely win custody battles like that, unless the mother can be proven to be "unfit" which is difficult and expensive to do. I didn't think this would last more than a few months, and apparently I was right.

Now I'm having to deal with the fact that my wife is talking about letting our 14 year-old daughter finish out the school year up in Fayetteville with her unstable mother and stepfather. I am adamant about my ENTIRE family coming back home. Our other two children will be devastated and miss her immensely (big sister is almost like a god, you know). Also, as has been posted I don't want her to be moved around and pick up on their whimsical habits. I WILL fight for this one...my wife always enters into these crazy arrangements with her mother and step-father, only to regret them later because they won't commit to much of anything! She's complaining right now about how her mother was so much wanting them to live there and her to go to school, and 5 weeks later she's telling her to get out because "they can't handle them." My teenage step-daughter whom I've raised since she was 1 is not going to live up there with those people... and this is yet another example of these hair-brained schemes that my wife and her mother come up with. They've only been in that school for a month, so there's no way I can see justifying it because she doesn't want to move again... does the board agree with me on this one?

This entire post just shows that it is indeed your way or the highway, her dreams, her thoughts, they don't matter to you.

I don't care how many degrees you have, that doesn't make you a better person, husband or father. Do you want me to list my degrees, it doesn't make my advice more or less than anyone elses.

You're right, if she wants to be "unstable" and "underemployed" then it is her decision, because you won't listen. If you did listen, agreed to compromise, then she might stay. You refuse to do this, so I can't blame her if she leaves.

For you the adventure is over, perhaps for her it's just beginning. If her decisions are rash and foolish, well that's her choice. You aren't her keeper, you're supposed to be her partner.

It seems to me like you've already decided what you're going to do, now you get to wait and see what she decides. Personally, I could never stay with a man that wants to control my every action, it's not in my nature.

I can only wish you luck, seeing as you won't listen to anyone's advice.


I'm not controlling her every action! All I want is a little logic, stability, and sanity! Yes, I am her partner, and as such she shouldn't be doing things that are so destructive (like ruin our credit and completely obliterate any stability we had)! What I'm hearing from the board is that no matter how foolish or rash her decisions are, I should just go along with it because anything less is being controlling? Do you hear yourselves? If she jumped off a cliff because that was HER wish, should I go along with it? Well, in a financial and emotional sense, SHE HAS jumped off a cliff... I'm not going to follow her to the rocks below... I'll move on before I destroy my life and the children's lives. I truly believe if you were here in my shoes you'd be offering very different advice. I have to agree with you on the degrees; especially in Arkansas... they couldn't care less and will pay minimum wage whether you have a Ph.D. or a GED at times... I knew a Ph.D. who delivered auto parts because the local employers just didn't care... don't think you all realize how downtrodden this part of the country is... you're likely living comfortable lives financially, and don't need to worry about what I am and you're not seeing the misery and poverty that I do on a daily basis...


Controlling every action? How in the hell am I doing that? Because I'd like for her to keep the job that she WANTED to have? She told me a few years ago that she was tired of merely staying at home with the children, and that she wanted to get out and work so she could be more than "just a mother." Ok, I said... now, I'm CONTROLLING because the income we've relied on is being thrown out the window? What if your spouse stopped working and left you in dire financial straits? My water was shut off a few weeks ago... how about taking cold showers in Canada because your husband left you and cut your income in half WHILE leaving you with all the bills? How in the hell am I being controlling? Heck, I just want to take a warm shower and buy groceries... I don't have the luxury of being controlling.

Do you hear yourself? Read over what you've written, read it with an open mind, from the outside looking in.

You have to wonder why everyone is giving you the same advice. Could it be that they see this situation more clearly than you?

It's often very hard to deal with something when you're living it, it's easier to see things clearly when you're just a spectator.

You gave us the info, we based our opinions on what you've said.

You should be talking to your wife, your partner, the women you claim to love about all of this. Instead you're hear lamenting about all your problems and poo pooing on all her issues. Do you do that while you're talking to her? She has some very real concerns, but you won't hear them, you're too busy trying to get things to go the way you want them.

Until you see that, there's nothing anyone can do to help you or your marriage.

Your choice, make your family happy, or, lose your family.............again. Whats so hard about that?

Sorry you don't like to be called a bad listener, but you are, and the proof is in this thread, where you have argued everyone down for the last 20 some pages.

I can just imagine what you do with your wife, and its telling when you can't make love to your woman unless the laundry is done. Thats you though, highly stubborn, and unreasonable, and unbending. Trust me, thats a recipe for being alone, and not a sign of being able to care and share, but control.

There will always be conflicts, and clashes with your position, as again these post should have shown you that your position is hard to swallow and we all sympathize with your wife.

If you were a good a listener, as you are an arguer of your position, your wife wouldn't have left you, just because you'd be working together to solve your issues, thru caring and compromise.

If you remain rigid in your demands, and positions, and are unwilling to compromise, kiss your family good bye.

If I didn't have empathy for you, and your family, I would be ignoring your a$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Being called a lousy listener is one thing. You went beyond that and essentially accused me of being a p**ck; that was not in any way professional or helpful.

Do you hear yourself? Read over what you've written, read it with an open mind, from the outside looking in.

You have to wonder why everyone is giving you the same advice. Could it be that they see this situation more clearly than you?

It's often very hard to deal with something when you're living it, it's easier to see things clearly when you're just a spectator.

You gave us the info, we based our opinions on what you've said.

You should be talking to your wife, your partner, the women you claim to love about all of this. Instead you're hear lamenting about all your problems and poo pooing on all her issues. Do you do that while you're talking to her? She has some very real concerns, but you won't hear them, you're too busy trying to get things to go the way you want them.

Until you see that, there's nothing anyone can do to help you or your marriage.


No, I'm busy trying to be RESPONSIBLE and keep the lights on, the water running, and food on the table.

This entire post just shows that it is indeed your way or the highway, her dreams, her thoughts, they don't matter to you.

I don't care how many degrees you have, that doesn't make you a better person, husband or father. Do you want me to list my degrees, it doesn't make my advice more or less than anyone elses.

You're right, if she wants to be "unstable" and "underemployed" then it is her decision, because you won't listen. If you did listen, agreed to compromise, then she might stay. You refuse to do this, so I can't blame her if she leaves.

For you the adventure is over, perhaps for her it's just beginning. If her decisions are rash and foolish, well that's her choice. You aren't her keeper, you're supposed to be her partner.

It seems to me like you've already decided what you're going to do, now you get to wait and see what she decides. Personally, I could never stay with a man that wants to control my every action, it's not in my nature.

I can only wish you luck, seeing as you won't listen to anyone's advice.


And what kind of compromise would you suggest? At this point, the financial damage has been done; she'll have to work until at least August because we're now VERY far behind and it will take months to fix this.

Being called a lousy listener is one thing. You went beyond that and essentially accused me of being a p**ck; that was not in any way professional or helpful.

And once again you aren't listening. Where in Tal's post did he call you a pr#ck? Where? If you see it then point it out to me.

You came here for advice, we didn't track you down and force our opinions down your throat.

It's up to you to choose where your life is heading, no one else can do it for you. You've drawn the line in the sand, obviously you have no intention of changing anything, so I have to wonder why you're here to begin with.

Did you come here hoping for sympathy? Did you come here hoping that people would agree with you, tell you that you're right? That's not what we do here, we offer advice, we don't sugarcoat things and you can either accept that advice, implement it, or move on until you find something that works for you. If we thought you were right we'd tell you, but we don't and you can't accept that.

Perhaps it's time to get counselling, after all, it's not really fair to your wife to be talking about all your problems without her having a chance to tell her side. A counsellor can sit down with both of you and get to the root of your problems. You do have to be willing to listen though, otherwise there's no point in doing it at all.

I wish you luck, I truly hope that you and your wife find a way to make things work, I just don't think you're going to find that way here, unless you start to listen, really listen, and stop taking things as a personal attack on you, because they're not.

Good luck.

I've been reading this thread since GBN's first post and am seeing his "big picture" and her "details" -- his "forest" and her "trees," his umbrella of security protecting him from the elements and her not worried about raindrops splashing on her unprotected head. I could go on and on with comparisons....

I'm married to someone like GBN. Security is everything. How we save money or spend it is in almost every sentence he speaks. I know why my husband is that way and have learned to roll with it, to use it to the family's advantage. I wonder if there is something in the OP's past that causes him to focus on security to the point that it makes him appear so egocentric, so self-involved. Realizing why he is this way (and it's not a bad thing, but just comes out badly) might help him as he and his wife try to come to some agreement.


I don't want my family to live in poverty, and I personally don't like "drama." Yes, I do like security because through my experiences I've learned just how fast and hard life can hit you and ruin your life, along with those around you. Therefore, I like to think of myself as providing security and stability for my family. Her decision to move all the sudden and quit her job that had benefits we really needed just didn't make sense to me. I guess that might be a difference between men and women. For me, I need the financial security and stability first (everyone goes to their job, goes to school, and maintains the machinery of our lives); after that, emotional needs and concerns can be dealt with. Maybe that's part of the problem here? I'm saying, we need the foundation and THEN we can deal with these other issues, but for God sakes, don't throw a wrench into our lives! Emotional issues can be worked on, but it's impossible to counsel your way through credit card debt, cold showers, and homelessness. I appreciate your post and tone. I don't just want people to agree with me inasmuch as I'd appreciate a more helpful tone. Some of these posts, in my opinion, are not meant to be helpful.

And once again you aren't listening. Where in Tal's post did he call you a pr#ck? Where? If you see it then point it out to me.

You came here for advice, we didn't track you down and force our opinions down your throat.

It's up to you to choose where your life is heading, no one else can do it for you. You've drawn the line in the sand, obviously you have no intention of changing anything, so I have to wonder why you're here to begin with.

Did you come here hoping for sympathy? Did you come here hoping that people would agree with you, tell you that you're right? That's not what we do here, we offer advice, we don't sugarcoat things and you can either accept that advice, implement it, or move on until you find something that works for you. If we thought you were right we'd tell you, but we don't and you can't accept that.

Perhaps it's time to get counselling, after all, it's not really fair to your wife to be talking about all your problems without her having a chance to tell her side. A counsellor can sit down with both of you and get to the root of your problems. You do have to be willing to listen though, otherwise there's no point in doing it at all.

I wish you luck, I truly hope that you and your wife find a way to make things work, I just don't think you're going to find that way here, unless you start to listen, really listen, and stop taking things as a personal attack on you, because they're not.

Good luck.

Here is the post I found offensive.

"I'll bet, just from what you've written on this post, you a lousy listener, ( if you listened) and treated your wife and family like objects, that you tried to mold to your own standards."

This entire post just shows that it is indeed your way or the highway, her dreams, her thoughts, they don't matter to you.

I don't care how many degrees you have, that doesn't make you a better person, husband or father. Do you want me to list my degrees, it doesn't make my advice more or less than anyone elses.

You're right, if she wants to be "unstable" and "underemployed" then it is her decision, because you won't listen. If you did listen, agreed to compromise, then she might stay. You refuse to do this, so I can't blame her if she leaves.

For you the adventure is over, perhaps for her it's just beginning. If her decisions are rash and foolish, well that's her choice. You aren't her keeper, you're supposed to be her partner.

It seems to me like you've already decided what you're going to do, now you get to wait and see what she decides. Personally, I could never stay with a man that wants to control my every action, it's not in my nature.

I can only wish you luck, seeing as you won't listen to anyone's advice.


The advice I'm reading is that I should quit my job and move without any means to support a family just because she decided to up and leave and pull our children out of school. I'm not leaving the security of my job, especially considering that she's already coming back. My family would be in a much worse situation than they are now. Children need things like food, clothing, and shelter... I'd likely be forced on welfare because the economy is so bad. Therefore, I'm not going to just up and leave because of this, and I think it's unfair to say I'm controlling because I want a little security and stability.

I really having nothing more to say. I've said my piece and now it's up to you.

I wish you luck and hope things work out.

Good bye.

For once, ask your wife what she wants, and how she wants you to change in your marriage. See what answer she gives you.

I don't want my family to live in poverty, and I personally don't like "drama." Yes, I do like security because through my experiences I've learned just how fast and hard life can hit you and ruin your life, along with those around you. Therefore, I like to think of myself as providing security and stability for my family. Her decision to move all the sudden and quit her job that had benefits we really needed just didn't make sense to me. I guess that might be a difference between men and women. For me, I need the financial security and stability first (everyone goes to their job, goes to school, and maintains the machinery of our lives); after that, emotional needs and concerns can be dealt with. Maybe that's part of the problem here? I'm saying, we need the foundation and THEN we can deal with these other issues, but for God sakes, don't throw a wrench into our lives! Emotional issues can be worked on, but it's impossible to counsel your way through credit card debt, cold showers, and homelessness. I appreciate your post and tone. I don't just want people to agree with me inasmuch as I'd appreciate a more helpful tone. Some of these posts, in my opinion, are not meant to be helpful.
Don't forget -- I'm a counselor too, and am trying to pick apart the tangled fishing line.

Maybe another thing to consider is that you are male and she is female. John Gray made a ton of money on that dichotomy with his Mars-Venus thing. You are saying that there are problems to be solved, and she is saying "Nuts to the problems! Love me." You say your concerns are the mechanics, "the machinery of our lives," and refer to her concerns as the emotional stuff that can be dealt with later. Unfortunately for you, she wants to deal with the emotional stuff NOW, not later.

How can both sets of needs be satisfied so that the family becomes whole again?

GreatBigNow,
If you find our various tones offensive, it's probably because we often find yours offensive. We tell you that, but you seem oblivious to the effect you have on other people and also closed to looking at things from any point of view but your own. Or that's the way it seems to us. As a group, I would say the people here have all different levels of education and economic background (though all smart!). This is an anonymous board, which means most of us don't know one another. And yet despite our different backgrounds, we are all pretty much telling you the same things. You insist all of us are wrong and are not giving you the "help" you came looking for. What would that help look like, if I may ask?


I personally don't like "drama."

This, for example, is a surprising statement given your posts here. You give the impression of being very much interested in dramatizing your situation and your wife's failings, as well as those of her parents. Your intense reactions to minor annoyances (like a messy house) all bespeak an addiction to drama.

Plus, news flash: you were living in a house with three kids and two working parents and a dysfunctional marriage. Not surprising the housework didn't get number one priority. Real life isn't Father Knows Best.

Don't sweat the small stuff. The marriage was way more important than the shoes on the floor, as you should be starting to recognize now, but seem not to be.

A friend of mine once said to me, "I can always tell when a couple are going to get divorced because they let the garden go." And that's just what people can see from the outside.


Her decision to move all the sudden and quit her job that had benefits we really needed just didn't make sense to me. I guess that might be a difference between men and women.

I personally found this extremely offensive. There is no support for your implication that women as a group are irresponsible. Furthermore, even if it were true, which it is not, it would be irrelevant. It's you and your wife, not some average of all women and all men. And from the perspective of at least some of us, it's you who have been irresponsible.

As far as I can tell from what you've said so far, the job your wife quit was one you really needed, to help you pay off your loans, which you apparently feel ill equipped to do on your own.


For me, I need the financial security and stability first (everyone goes to their job, goes to school, and maintains the machinery of our lives); after that, emotional needs and concerns can be dealt with. Maybe that's part of the problem here? I'm saying, we need the foundation and THEN we can deal with these other issues, but for God sakes, don't throw a wrench into our lives!

Yeah, well. It's too bad you didn't deal with those pesky emotional needs when you could have, back when "the machinery" (aka, your wife) was still working. This is like arguing that you can't put oil in the engine after it's seized and that you want the engine to start turning over again so you can lube it. Don't hold your breath waiting for it to start up. It seized because you didn't put oil in when you could have. You should have thought of all this a year ago.

The train's left the station, to mix in still another metaphor.

GBN--I'm betting what the REAL issue here is, is this:

You see your jobs, home, bills, security as the necessary part of a life together, and everything else the is the "emotional crap" that is the gravy to make things "happy".

Your wife sees love, respect, communication and fun together as the necessary parts of a life together, and the stabily, money, etc is the gravy that makes things "smoother".

Neither of you is necessarily wrong--but if you don't figure out how to meet in the middle, you're BOTH going to be sitting and wondering how the heck your marriage failed, and blaming it on each other.

Neither of you is necessarily wrong--but if you don't figure out how to meet in the middle, you're BOTH going to be sitting and wondering how the heck your marriage failed, and blaming it on each other.
Exactly what I've been saying. She has to listen to him too -- and he has the added burden of saying his side of things in a way that will appeal to HER. He will have to ooze empathy.

The wife and kids come home this weekend. She's going to start an LPN program (nursing) that will only take three semesters and starting pay is $12 locally just out of college... for this area that is a decent wage when coupled with my income as well. If she goes this summer it will be even faster and she could be working by next summer... pay range for LPN is $13-21 an hour depending on location & experience, and this will really help our family... we're going to work on everything else as well, but for myself I have to make sure everyone's fed and the lights are on before we do anything else... happy and broke don't exactly go together, no matter what ANYONE says.

To most of you, I send my thanks. To some of you, be assured that I tried to take your comments with an open mind, tried being the key word.

The wife and kids come home this weekend. She's going to start an LPN program (nursing) that will only take three semesters and starting pay is $12 locally just out of college...for this area that is a decent wage when coupled with my income as well. If she goes this summer it will be even faster and she could be working by next summer....pay range for LPN is $13-21 an hour depending on location & experience, and this will really help our family...we're going to work on everything else as well, but for myself I have to make sure everyone's fed and the lights are on before we do anything else...happy and broke don't exactly go together, no matter what ANYONE says.

To most of you, I send my thanks. To some of you, be assured that I tried to take your comments with an open mind, tried being the key word.
Aaaah, a happy ending! I'm very pleased and will keep you in my thoughts. Please "report in" occasionally to let us kniow how it's going.

Whether you liked our advice or not, I truly hope things work well with you and your family.

Good Luck, and please keep us updated.

Well, it's been about two weeks... overall, things are OK. She has applied for the LPN program at a local community college because it only takes three semesters and pays about 80% of the wages of a local entry-level RN (which would take 4 years at my university). We're both willing to deal with that for 3 semesters, and she'll be done by the end of summer next year. She can attend school for her RN part-time, and there is a program that allows for an LPN to RN which only takes a year. So, there it is. Right now she's staying at home and caring for the children, while I go to work. We're broke beyond belief, and are applying for food stamps... this sucks financially but if she will finish then our income will double or possibly more after some experience. Even in our small town LPN's start at 12 an hour (straight out of school with no experience), and it will supplement my 15 an hour quite nicely. I think it's difficult for many to understand just how little Arkansas jobs pay; the only place I've seen similar poverty is in the slums of Mexico, but we're in the U.S.! She can't graduate soon enough, In my opinion.

I think it's difficult for many to understand just how little Arkansas jobs pay; the only place I've seen similar poverty is in the slums of Mexico, but we're in the U.S.!!!!!!! She can't graduate soon enough, IMHO.
It's where retired people with good pensions go to live (MHome) or where families have lived for generations and have no wish to leave. I totally understand (lived for six years in the hills of NC).

Always be in touch with her emotional needs. That's where she, being the female she is, is coming from. I'll eat oatmeal and dry toast but give me hugs and affirmations.

From my experience broke, but still working together beats being apart with a few buck in your pocket. Hang in there.

I hear a lot about what you think she may want and what you want but really you need to think about the welfare of your children. You have a very good case to get custody of your children, including the 14 yr. old, however, sometimes the courts will side with what a 14 yr old wants herself. You have been the main caregiver for the children. You also have been the main provider. You can show the courts that they need to stay in the environment they are used to, friends, neighborhood, school, etc. I know you feel she may come back but the big word is "might". If she doesn't and you wait too long, it may be too late to fight the issue in court, again you must look out for the children. It doesn't matter if she is using you, not in your children's eyes. Believe me, children figure things out and also assume. The worse thing you could ever do is bad mouth their mother, instead support her, always. Even though your children may not see the light now, guaranteed they will and they will only resent you if you display bad behaviour, including, not fighting for them, seeing them, calling them. All you have to do, no matter what, whether you like the situations that may come up or not, is to think what's best for your children. In the end when they're about 18 or 20 they will understand you did all that you could do and believe me there are many more years after childhood that family is spent together. P.S. Keep the children completely out of the court/custody/support battle, even if they ask questions. Just say this is for the adults to deal with (not problem, not worry). Hope this helps and good luck!

It's OK to be broke, your family is home with you, that is the main thing. Things will turn around for you now! Were all suffering in some kind of way, financially, don't let that keep you down. Your heading in the right direction, now. Just keep that positive attitude on everything. Keep us updated too, were all pulling for you. Good luck.