Hi,
I believe that no religion is completely right for the fact that all people are individual and can not follow a list of rules agreed--not entirely--by a group of people who may be "too devout" for their own good. However, I do believe that every religion, no matter how bogus it may be does hold some truth. Religion is an organization and something like faith should not be organized but random and individual. On the other hand, you should have your own methods and ideas for how you follow the "Higher Power". Continuing on that note, do you also believe that what might be considered wrong, evil, a sin(or whatever slang you sling) for one person could be done with the same intention for another person and not be wrong at all?

Please, I welcome your opinions on this topic?

I agree Religion is an organization. It is man made formulas on what man thinks pleases God.
BUT everybody's own ways is not the answer either.
If you truly want God you need to seek God you need to seek him in spirit and truth. The Bible says study to show theyself approved. Thy word have I hid in my heart. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. We all fall short of the glory of God.
So you can't simply formulate your own idea of you and God without getting to know God and what he desires.
Then it is no better than organized religion trying to please God.

.... However, I do believe that every religion, no matter how bogus it may be does hold some truth .....
Not only religion. For almost every idea, view, attitude there will be others to support it.


Continuing on that note, do you also believe that what might be considered wrong, evil, a sin(or whatever slang you sling) for one person could be done with the same intention for another person and not be wrong at all?
As you stated yourself : no matter how bogus it may be...

:)

.

.

N0help4u, You can draw close to God on your own spiritual path but following one that others set for your could possibly draw you away from God(if that is what you prefer to call it).

The bible, is very few things actually handed down by this higher power and mostly idea and plans brought about by the people who wrote it. I definitely do not look to the bible for anything.

Is it possible that the higher power has revealed itself in different forms to the different cultures of the world to see if they would stay faithful. Religion is just a useless trail marked out on the map but do you really believe that you need to have a religion in order to become spiritually enlightened?

I suppose then it depends on how you define what you call your spiritual path.

N0help4u, You can draw close to God on your own spiritual path but following one that others set for your could possibly draw you away from God(if that is what you prefer to call it).

The bible, is very few things actually handed down by this higher power and mostly idea and plans brought about by the people who wrote it. I definitely do not look to the bible for anything.

Is it possible that the higher power has revealed itself in different forms to the different cultures of the world to see if they would stay faithful. Religion is just a useless trail marked out on the map but do you really believe that you need to have a religion in order to become spiritually enlightened?

I absolutely do not believe that you need a religion to be spiritually enlightened. In fact I think it can stifle enlightenment. Deep in our core,if we are truly honest with ourselves, we know the diff between right and wrong. I certainly don't need a bible to tell me what my heart already knows.

I believe the Holy Spirit reveals or enlightens at the will of God, "Our Creator." To think you gain enlightenment on your own is suggestive to your own ability to control.

And different religions are the many members body of the superior God that has permitted the branches of His will. To say they can be stifled is to think God is not power, and authority over all. To suggest man has control over this earth, would be untrue. God reveals what is His will to those who seek Him, and love Him. There is no greater power or authority then Our Lord.

Moral law is by nature, part of God's creation in us. The same can be said as instinctively done or known to you. An (example would be hunger or selfless behavior in times of fear).

The bible is the Word of God made flesh in Christ. It is the inspired Word of the Holy Spirit. "Our Father is powerful," and in His strength, and perfection, the Word exists as His will being done.

It is my choice to trust Our Father, the creator of the world. And to give ear to His heart of love, known as Christ. With my heart and soul knowing that the Holy Spirit is within making intercession for me in all that is God's Will to be done.

To believe you do not need the bible is to say you do not need what God intended for you to read. And it would be prideful to think you hold the controls of life or death.

Hi,
On the other hand, you should have your own methods and ideas for how you follow the "Higher Power".

Please, I welcome your opinions on this topic?

Well I disagree with almost everything you said. There IS a God out there, He can and will reveal himself to anyone who truly wants him to. I don't believe we come to God on OUR terms ( methods, ideas .etc.)... but we come to him on HIS.

I absolutely do not believe that you need a religion to be spiritually enlightened. In fact I think it can stifle enlightenment. Deep in our core,if we are truly honest with ourselves, we know the diff between right and wrong. I certainly don't need a bible to tell me what my heart already knows.

We cannot trust our own hearts or understanding. It will lead us astray. Deep in our core, if we are honest with ourselves, we see that we have evil within and Jesus is the only One who can change that. Religion, man's way of attaining righteousness, will never be good enough. We are drawn to Jesus by the Holy Spirit and His religion is to love others, to serve them and to worship the LORD God.

Daniel 12:10
Many people will have their hearts and lives made pure and clean, but those who are evil will keep on being evil and never understand. Only the wise will understand.

Matthew 15:19
Out of your heart come evil thoughts, murder, unfaithfulness in marriage, vulgar deeds, stealing, telling lies, and insulting others.

Titus 2:14
He gave himself to rescue us from everything that is evil and to make our hearts pure. He wanted us to be his own people and to be eager to do right.

Psalm 53:1
[ For the choir director: A meditation; a psalm of David. ] Only fools say in their hearts,“There is no God.”They are corrupt, and their actions are evil;not one of them does good!

[QUOTE=savedsinner7;1539259]We cannot trust our own hearts or understanding. It will lead us astray. Deep in our core, if we are honest with ourselves, we see that we have evil within and Jesus is the only One who can change that. Religion, man's way of attaining righteousness, will never be good enough. We are drawn to Jesus by the Holy Spirit and His religion is to love others, to serve them and to worship the LORD God.

[Right, religion will never be good enough

Think about it this way, god wouldn't say OK... only the Christians can come to 'heaven' with me... but everyone else must die. That would be a contradiction on our God who loves us with unconditional love. God sent Jesus down to show the people (his disciples) that they too, were capable of healing and the miracles in which Jesus preformed. When the hierarchy's heard of such a thing, they couldn't allow people to know what they were capable of so they killed of Jesus and his disciples. My point is that along the way all of the bibles and religious books are based off interpretations not only mentally but from one language to another everything doesn't always transfer over correctly. Therefore, everything in the bible isn't true. What I've always done it looked all at religions... found what was similar or reoccurring in every religion... and based my beliefs off that. I enjoy buddism, wiccan (just the nature part), western philosophy, and so on. Check into Indigo Children/Adults as it sounds like you are in your first stage of awakening. I'm here if you have any questions. Good luck

Peace and Blessings,

Kelsey

Think about it this way, god wouldn't say ok...only the Christians can come to 'heaven' with me...but everyone else must die. That would be a contradiction on our God who loves us with unconditional love. God sent Jesus down to show the people (his disciples) that they too, were capable of healing and the miracles in which Jesus preformed. When the hierarchy's heard of such a thing, they couldn't allow people to know what they were capable of so they killed of Jesus and his disciples. My point is that along the way all of the bibles and religious books are based off of interpretations not only mentally but from one language to another everything doesn't always transfer over correctly. Therefore, everything in the bible isn't true. What I've always done it looked all at religions...found what was similar or reoccurring in every religion...and based my beliefs off of that. I enjoy buddism, wiccan (just the nature part), western philosophy, and so on. Check into Indigo Children/Adults as it sounds like you are in your first stage of awakening. I'm here if you have any questions. Good luck

Peace and Blessings,

Kelsey

That's not what God says. Those who don't obey Him will be sent to Hell. Period. Even those who say they believe in Him, if they don't obey will be sent to Hell. He will not allow sin (unconfessed and blood covered) into His presence. There WILL be a day when all who live and have ever lived will stand before Him in judgment. I hope my name is in His book of life. I hope I can remain obedient until that day.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

The Narrow Way

22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”

Think about it this way, god wouldn't say ok...only the Christians can come to 'heaven' with me...but everyone else must die. That would be a contradiction on our God who loves us with unconditional love. God sent Jesus down to show the people (his disciples) that they too, were capable of healing and the miracles in which Jesus preformed. When the hierarchy's heard of such a thing, they couldn't allow people to know what they were capable of so they killed of Jesus and his disciples. My point is that along the way all of the bibles and religious books are based off of interpretations not only mentally but from one language to another everything doesn't always transfer over correctly. Therefore, everything in the bible isn't true. What I've always done it looked all at religions...found what was similar or reoccurring in every religion...and based my beliefs off of that. I enjoy buddism, wiccan (just the nature part), western philosophy, and so on. Check into Indigo Children/Adults as it sounds like you are in your first stage of awakening. I'm here if you have any questions. Good luck

Peace and Blessings,

Kelsey

Beautifully said.:)

There WILL be a day when all who live and have ever lived will stand before Him in judgment. I hope my name is in His book of life. I hope I can remain obedient until that day.


So where are all the people that have ever lived now? Are they waiting on that day?

So where are all the people that have ever lived now? Are they waiting on that day?

For the Christian the bible puts it this way... to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. For those that died in their sins... they are in hades ( it is a place of torment) the Lord Jesus tells a story about a rich man and Lazarus a beggar. The rich man had no faith and ended up in torment. It will be at the Great White Throne judgement that the small and the great shall stand before him and give an account for their lives IF their names are not written in the Lambs book of life. My name WAS written there.. whoo ho. ( and I don't deserve it... never did)

It will be at the Great White Throne judgement that the small and the great shall stand before him and give an account for their lives


Are you meaning this in a literal sense?


IF their names are not written in the Lambs book of life.

More literal?


My name WAS written there.. whoo ho. ( and I don't deserve it... never did)

Your name WAS written there? Already?? How do you know?

Cozy,

Because I accepted God's gift Jesus Christ as my savior and believe that He is the only way to heaven AND His atoning work on the cross was MORE than enough. My name was written in there when I was a little girl all because I heard the good news and believed it with everything in me. I wasn't good enough and I didn't deserve it... it was GOOD NEWS to my little 4 year old ears.

... What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and THOU SHALL be SAVED... Act16:30-31

Then again:

If thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead... THOU SHALT BE SAVED!

Your name is written in the Lambs book of Life right after you are saved and there is great rejoicing in the heavens every time it happens. I didn't earn it, I didn't deserve it and I can't lose it. I have a WONDERFUL savior.

Think about it this way, god wouldn't say ok...only the Christians can come to 'heaven' with me...but everyone else must die. That would be a contradiction on our God who loves us with unconditional love. God sent Jesus down to show the people (his disciples) that they too, were capable of healing and the miracles in which Jesus preformed. When the hierarchy's heard of such a thing, they couldn't allow people to know what they were capable of so they killed of Jesus and his disciples. My point is that along the way all of the bibles and religious books are based off of interpretations not only mentally but from one language to another everything doesn't always transfer over correctly. Therefore, everything in the bible isn't true. What I've always done it looked all at religions...found what was similar or reoccurring in every religion...and based my beliefs off of that. I enjoy buddism, wiccan (just the nature part), western philosophy, and so on. Check into Indigo Children/Adults as it sounds like you are in your first stage of awakening. I'm here if you have any questions. Good luck

Peace and Blessings,

Kelsey

If the Bible isn't ALL true.. then NONE of us has hope. YOUR thoughts are just that... YOURS. I am only interested in GOD's Thoughts. He is probably smarter than me. Jesus came and said I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH ( get that THE TRUTH) and the Life. NO MAN comes to the Father but by me. You have two choices... you either reject that or believe it. If Jesus is THE TRUTH... why mess with other so called religions. Because they are beautiful , interesting, enlightening? I don't get it... man made them up. According the bible Man hasn't had an original thought. As for me... I believe GOD.

Peace and Blessings,

Tess

I would be interested in what the OP has to say more on this issue.
Not merely starting a thread that is or can be somewhat heated and not following up on it.

If the Bible isn't ALL true..then NONE of us has hope. YOUR thoughts are just that...YOURS. I am only interested in GOD's Thoughts. He is probably smarter than me. Jesus came and said I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH ( get that THE TRUTH) and the Life. NO MAN comes to the Father but by me. You have two choices...you either reject that or believe it. If Jesus is THE TRUTH....why mess with other so called religions. Because they are beautiful , interesting, enlightening? I don't get it....man made them up. According the the bible Man hasn't had an original thought. As for me....i believe GOD.

Peace and Blessings,

Tess

I don't mean to criticize your beliefs and I don't mean to in any way. But you really have to consider when Jesus came down... he didn't physically sit down and write a book... in fact in every language so that there would be NO mistakes... The bible was written by man... and interpreted many different times... into many different languages therefore altering the meaning of the passages... I'm not saying it doesn't have truth in it... but it's not 100% true. You can live your live by the bible but remember it's not set in stone that everything in there is correct. It causes much fear in your life... if you sin... you go to hell, which in turn brings fear to your life... this is not healthy...

If you can step away from religions all together and take from each of them what is the same in all... then you can learn to live your live happy, well, spiritual, but without fear. You can only be truly happy when you rid fear of your life... hope this helps.

I don't mean to criticize your beliefs and I don't mean to in any way. But you really have to consider when Jesus came down...he didn't physically sit down and write a book...in fact in every language so that there would be NO mistakes....The bible was written by man...and interpreted many different times...into many different languages therefore altering the meaning of the passages...I'm not saying it doesn't have truth in it...but it's not 100% true. You can live your live by the bible but remember it's not set in stone that everything in there is correct. It causes much fear in your life...if you sin...you go to hell, which in turn brings fear to your life...this is not healthy....

If you can step away from religions all together and take from each of them what is the same in all...then you can learn to live your live happy, well, spiritual, but without fear. You can only be truly happy when you rid fear of your life....hope this helps.

I'm in total agreement with you.:)

If you can step away from religions all together and take from each of them what is the same in all...then you can learn to live your live happy, well, spiritual, but without fear. You can only be truly happy when you rid fear of your life....hope this helps.Very well said.

My name was written in there when I was a little girl all because I heard the good news and believed it with everything in me. I wasn't good enough and I didn't deserve it....it was GOOD NEWS to my little 4 year old ears.
I have a 4 year old and I was wondering how this happens. How did you "hear" the "good news" and how does a 4 year old process that information?

Very well said.

NK and Peace:

Perfect love casts out fear( it is in the bible can't remember if it is in 1 or 2 John.. . guess you all have been made perfect in love. I don't mean to be rude but come on... there isn't anyone on this planet that doesn't get hit by fear at some point... cough cough... :rolleyes:

OK I admit it... I'm in the mood to be NITPICKY! :p

I have a 4 year old and I was wondering how this happens. How did you "hear" the "good news" and how does a 4 year old process that information?

Well, the Lord himself said unless one comes as a little child they shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. I suppose I just believed it... it is called FAITH... and it musta took because as you can see... I ain't changed my mind.:D

...there isn't anyone on this planet that doesn't get hit by fear at some point..Sure, it's normal. We don't know what's around every corner. Not sure what your point is.

Nk,

Beats me, I was picking an argument with you because you agreed with peace and he was talking like he didn't have fear... but I see you have a little fear on you today because you backed down with me. I know... I intimidate you. Lol I am kind of scary

Nk,

beats me, i was pickin an arguement with ya because you agreed with peace and he was talking like he didn't have fear...but i see you have a little fear on ya today because you backed down with me. I know...i intimidate you. lol I am kinda scaryYes you are kind of scary.

tee hee...i felt the love in this comment when i read it...lol ahhhh now don't go getting all mad at me...but when i read Fr_ churcks comments it kind of rubbed me the wrong way too and LOVE wasn't what i was feeling at the time but i guess you are more enlighten than me. lol :p ( i am teasing you!!!)

;) It's all good hun. I'm not here to criticize just trying to get other people to see that there is truth in all religions. God loves us all no matter what!

Very well said.

:D Thanks!

Yes you are kinda scary.

But extremely cute and enlightened! :D

NK and Peace:

Perfect love casts out fear( it is in the bible can't remember if it is in 1 or 2 John. ....guess you all have been made perfect in love. I don't mean to be rude but come on......there isn't anyone on this planet that doesn't get hit by fear at some point....cough cough...:rolleyes:

ok i admit it...i'm in the mood to be NITPICKY! :p


That's all about to change hun. More and more people are opening to their eyes of love. I'm believe in the spiritualist theories. I believe that god loves everyone. That we're all here for a reason, and 2012 is coming up. Many religions think it's the end of the world.. but in fact, it's just going to be change. The end of the world as we know it. Love has been lost for hundreds and thousands of years. My job, is to bring this insight to others. Much love to you!
:D

N0help4u, You can draw close to God on your own spiritual path but following one that others set for your could possibly draw you away from God(if that is what you prefer to call it).

The bible, is very few things actually handed down by this higher power and mostly idea and plans brought about by the people who wrote it. I definitely do not look to the bible for anything.

Is it possible that the higher power has revealed itself in different forms to the different cultures of the world to see if they would stay faithful. Religion is just a useless trail marked out on the map but do you really believe that you need to have a religion in order to become spiritually enlightened?

Exactly!!

That's not what God says. Those who don't obey Him will be sent to Hell. Period. Even those who say they believe in Him, if they don't obey will be sent to Hell. He will not allow sin (unconfessed and blood covered) into His presence. There WILL be a day when all who live and have ever lived will stand before Him in judgment. I hope my name is in His book of life. I hope I can remain obedient until that day.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

The Narrow Way

22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”


You mean... that's not what god says in your bible... right?

Nk,

beats me, i was pickin an arguement with ya because you agreed with peace and he was talking like he didn't have fear...but i see you have a little fear on ya today because you backed down with me. I know...i intimidate you. lol I am kinda scary

We all have fear hun. But that's because it's been there our whole lives... if you're not good santa won't come... or the easter bunny... or if you don't come to work and do a good job... you're going to get fired or replaced... we all have fear. But it's good to realize that it's there and then attempt to cut it out of our lives. Of course, we no longer believe in santa or the easter bunny but you get my point.

I'm not above anyone here in anyway. I'm just trying to open peoples eyes that there are other possibilities out there. That's all. So please don't take my posts as an attack on anyone.

Also, FYI... Im a 26 female... just wanted to clear that up. =)

Sorry there peace... I won't call you a he again. Lol ;)

Sorry there peace....i won't call you a he again. lol ;)

Thank you kindly :p

but extremely cute and enlightened! :D

Maybe cute, but not enlightened. Very narrow minded thinker.

Exactly!!!

BINGO... We have a winner!

BINGO...We have a winner!

And Bingo was his name-O. ;)

Here is a beautiful quote I just found that explains it nicely.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
~ Margaret Mead

Maybe cute, but not enlightened. Very narrow minded thinker.

Ahhhh well, one out of two isn't bad. I'm not narrow minded Cozyk, I am grounded in my belief and I am not a person like James describes that is tossed too and fro at every thought of man. I am interested not in man's thoughts but Gods.

ahhhh well, one out of two aint bad. I'm not narrow minded Cozyk, I am grounded in my belief and I am not a person like James describes that is tossed too and fro at every thought of man. I am interested not in man's thoughts but Gods.

I'm just happy you have God in your heart... can't ask for much more. :D

I'm just happy you have God in your heart...can't ask for much more. :D

Thanks Peace! :)

and Bingo was his name-O. ;)

Here is a beautiful quote I just found that explains it nicely.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
~ Margaret Mead

I'm NOT thoughtful or committed? I am just a "narrow minded "thinker because you don't agree with me? LOL... ok... I see how it works or at least how you THINk it does. With your OPEN mind.:p

I'm NOT thoughtful or committed? I am just a "narrow minded "thinker because you don't agree with me. LOL....ok...i see how it worksor at least how you THINk it does. :p

Please don't put words in my mouth hun. Never said that at all! I was indirectly referring to my like-minded people and how we will change the world. Someone is a tad nit picky today, ey? :p

Oops. My bad.. I thought cozyk was the culprit for that... my apologies Peace. It takes a good couple of days to get on my bad side. LOL sorry!! She gave me a reddie and called me narrowminded all in one day... but alas, I shall forgive. I didn't mean that for you AT ALL.

oops. my bad..i thought cozyk was the culprit for that...my apologies Peace. It takes a good couple of days to get on my bad side. LOL sorry !!!!! She gave me a reddie and called me narrowminded all in one day...but alas, I shall forgive. I didn't mean that for you AT ALL.

Thanks for clearing that up hon! Forgiveness is a beautiful thing! I'm still trying to go through my whole life and forgive many people for the hurtful things they've done. :D If only it was as easy as it sounds! Takes time, and I admire that quality in people! ;)

If the Bible isn't ALL true.. then NONE of us has hope. YOUR thoughts are just that... YOURS. I am only interested in GOD's Thoughts. He is probably smarter than me. Jesus came and said I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH ( get that THE TRUTH) and the Life. NO MAN comes to the Father but by me. You have two choices... you either reject that or believe it. If Jesus is THE TRUTH... why mess with other so called religions. Because they are beautiful , interesting, enlightening? I don't get it... man made them up. According the bible Man hasn't had an original thought. As for me... I believe GOD.

Peace and Blessings,

Tess


Hmm I will take issue with this

Dr. W. Graham Scroggie of the MOODY BIBLE INSTITUTE, Chicago, one of the most prestigious Christian Evangelical Mission in the world, answering the question — "Is the Bible the Word of God?" (also the title of his book), under the heading: IT IS HUMAN, YET DIVINE. He says on page 17:

"Yes, the Bible is human, though some, out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, 1 have denied this. Those books2 have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men, and bear in their style the characteristics of men." (Emphasis added).

Another erudite Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says on page 277 of his book, "The Call of the Minaret":

"Not so the New Testament3 . . . There is condensation and editing; here is choice, reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the Church behind the authors. They represent experience and history."

If words have any meaning, do we need to add another word of comment to prove our case? No! But the professional propagandists, after letting the cat out of the bag, still have the face to try to make their readers believe that they have proved beyond the shadow of any doubt that the Bible is the "irrefragable Word of God." Their semantic gymnastics — equivocating, and playing with words — is amazing!

Dare 81, VERY interesting.

Dare, sorry if I offended you... but you're right it is my opinion... just like you have yours... thanks for sharing!

A bit pushy ey? I could pull up TONS of info on any religion if I wanted and throw it out there to pur sway you that MY(which I don't have one) religion is the best... I think a little bigger than that... not saying you're beliefs are wrong one bit... it's just bigger than one religion and no one religion is superior to another... thats all..

Well if I'm not mistaken the original question was pertaining to religion really not mattering. So that's what we're talking about. You have your right to your opinions and I have mine. I don't believe you're wrong in quoting the bible. Although I do believe the bible can be misinterpreted as anything else in this world... therefore everyone doesn't perceive things in the same way. Just because you read the same thing as many other people... doesn't mean you have the same beliefs because you all may have interpreted what you read differently... spirituality is bigger than religion. By spirituality, I mean looking into ones self for the answers... or what's right and wrong... rather than looking to a religion to define things. Religion is a sub category of how many accomplish their sense of 'spirituality' but its hard for them to push past their restrictions and accomplish the unknown... others can see the bigger picture and don't get boggled down by the restrictions that religion can set upon your life. Religion isn't bad... or unnecessary... but eventually everyone will realize all the answers their looking for in an organized religion... are really within... and with god's unconditional love, and our angels, we can do we put our mind to.

Peace & Blessings

Two words: WOW!

^(joke[because I know someone will not get why I put 'two words' because obviously wow is one word and I might as well explain that now instead of in another post])

Anyway, I am glad to see that this has been an interesting discussion. I would like to add something though. I think everyone is looking through a window in the middle of a wall instead of standing in a glass dome.

Firstly, Classy, I do not know how you know what God's thoughts are. The bible says things but God did not write it himself and a very small part of the book actually deals with what Jesus actually taught. Nevertheless, I am glad that you are following what you think are God's thoughts. That is very admirable. I just do not believe that anyone really knows what his thoughts are. The bible was written by a lot of men who wrote what they thought were God's thoughts but they really had no way of knowing. I do not disagree with you though, I just do not follow the same path.

Peacekelsey, don't forget that even though some people choose to live by the bible and hold every word in honor, that they found their path that way and though it consists of things that we may think are flawed that they are just like we are trying to find the answers.

Furthermore, let's make this less like an argument and more of an inquiry. For example:

What makes you feel that way? Why do you believe that? What is your inspiration?

Rather than:

That is not how I feel. or Well, according to this source, your logic is flawed.

I apoligize if I have offended anyone, but remember passion can be blinding while curiousity can be illuminating. Thank you for your time in reading this and I wish that everyone will continue to post their questions for others and their own theories.

Love you!

P.S. In re-reading this I see that I may have done some of the things that I asked others not to... so sorry for being a hypocrite and I will try to change and I guess my statements also apply to me. So let's go onward and grow! All of us

Malenymph,

Certainly you are intitled to your opinion. I believe that the Bible was inspired of God written by man. That is what the Bible teaches. I believe EVERY word is true in the Bible. It takes faith, I understand. But if you read the Bible you would see it is more than just words... it HAD to be inspired by God for there is no other way it could fit together, every passage, every story. There is a red thread that starts in Genesis and ends in Revelation that is Jesus Christ. I would also like to add the fact that the Jews are a nation and know who they are as a people is nothing short of a miracle. How many Philistines have you met in the last decade? Or for that matter century. These are reasons I believe the Bible is without error and absolute truth. That is the reason I think we can know what God's thoughts are about every subject.

You didn't offend me. Just wanted you to know where I was coming from. :)

I and many others believe as ClassyT because we do not follow 'religion' but open our heart and spirit to God and KNOW he has set us free in our hearts and opened our spiritual eyes. Religion keeps people blind.

Two words: WOW!

^(joke[because i know someone will not get why i put 'two words' because obviously wow is one word and i might as well explain that now instead of in another post])

Anyway, I am glad to see that this has been an interesting discussion. I would like to add something though. I think everyone is looking through a window in the middle of a wall instead of standing in a glass dome.

Firstly, Classy, I do not know how you know what God's thoughts are. The bible says things but God did not write it himself and a very small part of the book actually deals with what Jesus actually taught. Nevertheless, I am glad that you are following what you think are God's thoughts. That is very admirable. I just do not believe that anyone really knows what his thoughts are. The bible was written by a lot of men who wrote what they thought were God's thoughts but they really had no way of knowing. I do not disagree with you though, I just do not follow the same path.

Peacekelsey, don't forget that even though some people choose to live by the bible and hold every word in honor, that they found their path that way and though it consists of things that we may think are flawed that they are just like we are trying to find the answers.

Furthermore, let's make this less like an argument and more of an inquiry. For example:

What makes you feel that way? Why do you believe that? What is your inspiration?

Rather than:

That is not how I feel., or Well, according to this source, your logic is flawed.

I apoligize if I have offended anyone, but remember passion can be blinding while curiousity can be illuminating. Thank you for your time in reading this and I wish that everyone will continue to post their questions for others and their own theories.

Love ya!

P.S. In re-reading this I see that I may have done some of the things that I asked others not to....so sorry for being a hypocrite and I will try to change and I guess my statements also apply to me. So let's go onward and grow! All of us


Say what you will, I believe my post was rational and explained what I had felt without harshly criticizing anyone else's opinion. This discussion has carried on far to long. Best of luck to the original asker... that you find whatever works for you. Look into your heart... all the answers we seek are already there. Much love, Kelsey.

Hi,
I believe that no religion is completely right for the fact that all people are individual and can not follow a list of rules agreed--not entirely--by a group of people who may be "too devout" for their own good. However, I do believe that every religion, no matter how bogus it may be does hold some truth. Religion is an organization and something like faith should not be organized but random and individual. On the other hand, you should have your own methods and ideas for how you follow the "Higher Power". Continuing on that note, do you also believe that what might be considered wrong, evil, a sin(or whatever slang you sling) for one person could be done with the same intention for another person and not be wrong at all?

Please, I welcome your opinions on this topic?

Hi,
This subject has been dragging on for some time now, but I would still like to say something before it is removed from this board.

Your first point about people not being able to follow a given set of rules seems to ignore not only human established laws, which we are to follow whether we like or not, but two other important facts regarding religions.

a) Contrary to what happens with manmade laws religious rules are normally liberally accepted. You can follow them or ignore them as you please for “fines” or “punishment” is not of this world.

b) As far as Christianity is concerned the list of rules is actually very limited (10 only, or in reality, 11). In addition, this set of rules in actual fact was not instituted by someone “too devout” for his own good. They were simply set up by God himself “for our OWN good”.

Furthermore, what is more important, as I said before, we are totally free to accept them or consider them as “bogus” as you, so kindly, say, which is, certainly, something you are not allowed to do or say re. Human Laws.

As a result you can do whatever you deem convenient to follow the “Higher Power”. All that may happen to you is to receive some criticism from people obviously “too devout” to accept your theories.

Other than that, you may keep on living as you wish while following your natural whims. Nothing will happen to you down here, which sounds great.

There is a “teeny weeny” drawback, though. You have to bear in mind –that is, if you consider it worthwhile- the possibility that, after all, there may exist a “Higher Power” that might disagree with your position.

Although, to be fair with your point of view and with those who share your opinion, it is also possible, though not likely in the opinion of “devout” people like me, that nothing survives after you are gone...

It is a “high stake” gamble, but I’m sure that you will not mind to accept it.

So don’t give it another thought and just follow what your intuition directs you to. And “good luck”... :):)

It appears that gromitt maybe referring to Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Gambit). Feel free to read that page, it's quite interesting.

It appears that gromitt maybe referring to Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Gambit). Feel free to read that page, it's quite interesting.

Yes, gromitt could be referring to Pascals Wager, but I could tell he/she was very offended by the " too devout for your own good" reference. A devout christian can really spill some venom when they get on a soap box.:rolleyes:

:):):):)
It appears that gromitt maybe referring to Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Gambit). Feel free to read that page, it's quite interesting.

As a matter of fact, in my previous post on this subject, I was not referring to Pascal's Wager or to anyone in particular. However, I have read the page you mention, and I find it very interesting, indeed.

It does not surprise me though, because Pascal was not only a philosopher but a great mathematician and his analysis shows his tendency to analyze the subject of God from that point of view.

In my case, however, I apply the simplest logic although the result may be the same one. That is, if our friend Malenymph is doubtful whether to play the game in his own particular way, I just wish him good luck.

Nevertheless, I warn him of the possibility that he may be wrong, in which case what is at stake is a lot.

Just eternal happiness vs. eternal confinement into nothingness.

The problem is, in my opinion, that some people do not quite understand the meaning of eternity. Otherwise, I cannot see how anyone can even start to compare whatever pleasures we may have here in our lifetime (less than a nanosecond) against a promised eternal happiness...

:):):):)

As a matter of fact, in my previous post on this subject, I was not referring to Pascal's Wager or to anyone in particular. However, I have read the page you mention, and I find it very interesting, indeed.

It does not surprise me though, because Pascal was not only a philosopher but a great mathematician and his analysis shows his tendency to analyze the subject of God from that point of view.

In my case, however, I apply the simplest logic although the end result may be the same one. That is, if our friend Malenymph is doubtful whether to play the game in his own particular way, I just wish him good luck.

Nevertheless, I warn him of the possibility that he may be wrong, in which case what is at stake is a lot.

Just eternal happiness vs. eternal confinement into nothingness.

The problem is, in my opinion, that some people do not quite understand the meaning of eternity. Otherwise, I cannot see how anyone can even start to compare whatever pleasures we may have here in our lifetime (less than a nanosecond) against a promised eternal happiness...

I get where you are coming from because I too apply logic to most everything I do. The only part about believing "just in case" or to be on the "safe side" that I find hard to swallow is the motive. If you choose to believe and obey out of fear, is it really coming from the right place?

I get where you are coming from because I too apply logic to most everything I do. The only part about believing "just in case" or to be on the "safe side" that I find hard to swallow is the motive. If you choose to believe and obey out of fear, is it really coming from the right place?


Our RCC clearly admits two different forms of repentance, i.e. Contrition and Atrition.

Let me quote what the Catholic Encyclopeadia has to say in this connection:

Attrition or Imperfect Contrition (Latin attero, "to wear away by rubbing"; p. part. Attritus).

The Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, Chap. iv) has defined contrition as "sorrow of soul, and a hatred of sin committed, with a firm purpose of not sinning in the future". This hatred of sin may arise from various motives, may be prompted by various causes. The detestation of sin arise from the love of God, Who has been grievously offended, then contrition is termed perfect; if it arise from any other motive, such its loss of heaven, fear of hell, or the heinousness of guilt, then it is termed imperfect contrition, or attrition. That there exists such a disposition of soul as attrition, and that it is a goodly things an impulse of the Spirit of God, is the clear teaching of the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, iv).

And as to that imperfect contrition which is called attrition, because it is commonly conceived either from the consideration of the turpitude of sin, or from the fear of hell and of punishment, the council declares that if with the hope of pardon, it excludes the wish to sin, it not only does not make man a hypocrite and a greater sinner, but that it is even a gift of God, and an impulse of the Holy Spirit, who does not indeed as yet dwell in the penitent, but who only moves him whereby the penitent, being assisted, prepares a way for himself unto justice, and although this attrition cannot of itself, without the Sacrament of Penance, conduct the sinner to justification yet does it dispose him to receive the grace of God in the Sacrament of Penance.

For smitten profitably with fear, the Ninivites at the preaching of Jonas did fearful penance and obtained mercy from Lord.

Wherefore attrition, the council in Canon v, Sess. XIV, declares: "If any man assert that attrition . . . is not a true and a profitable sorrow; that it does not prepare the soul for grace, but that it makes a man a hypocrite, yea, even a greater sinner, let him be anathema". The doctrine of the council is in accord with the teaching of the Old and the New Testament."

I must add, in all honesty, that most of the time we sinners regret our sins for fear of punishment. Very muchas we keep our speed limits for fear of the fines...

Let's not be hypocritical about it!

Our RCC clearly admits two different forms of repentance, i.e. Contrition and Atrition.

Let me quote what the Catholic Encyclopeadia has to say in this connection:

Attrition or Imperfect Contrition (Latin attero, "to wear away by rubbing"; p. part. attritus).

The Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, Chap. iv) has defined contrition as "sorrow of soul, and a hatred of sin committed, with a firm purpose of not sinning in the future". This hatred of sin may arise from various motives, may be prompted by various causes. The detestation of sin arise from the love of God, Who has been grievously offended, then contrition is termed perfect; if it arise from any other motive, such its loss of heaven, fear of hell, or the heinousness of guilt, then it is termed imperfect contrition, or attrition. That there exists such a disposition of soul as attrition, and that it is a goodly things an impulse of the Spirit of God, is the clear teaching of the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, iv).

And as to that imperfect contrition which is called attrition, because it is commonly conceived either from the consideration of the turpitude of sin, or from the fear of hell and of punishment, the council declares that if with the hope of pardon, it excludes the wish to sin, it not only does not make man a hypocrite and a greater sinner, but that it is even a gift of God, and an impulse of the Holy Spirit, who does not indeed as yet dwell in the penitent, but who only moves him whereby the penitent, being assisted, prepares a way for himself unto justice, and although this attrition cannot of itself, without the Sacrament of Penance, conduct the sinner to justification yet does it dispose him to receive the grace of God in the Sacrament of Penance.

For smitten profitably with fear, the Ninivites at the preaching of Jonas did fearful penance and obtained mercy from Lord.

Wherefore attrition, the council in Canon v, Sess. XIV, declares: "If any man assert that attrition . . . is not a true and a profitable sorrow; that it does not prepare the soul for grace, but that it makes a man a hypocrite, yea, even a greater sinner, let him be anathema". The doctrine of the council is in accord with the teaching of the Old and the New Testament."

I must add, in all honesty, that most of the time we sinners regret our sins for fear of punishment. Very muchas we keep our speed limits for fear of the fines...

Let's not be hypocritical about it!

I appreciate all your efforts in using all these big words but Lordy Lordy, I get a headache trying to un-twist them into common speak. Could you give it to me again in simple layman's terms please?

Allah says in the Quran 2:79
"And woe to those who write the book with their own hands and they say: "This is from Allah (God)." To traffic with it for a miserable price! So woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for what they earn thereby!"

Muslims have something that offers the clearest proof of all - The Holy Quran. There is no other book like it anywhere on earth. It is absolutely perfect in the Arabic language. It has no mistakes in grammar, meanings or context. The scientific evidences are well known around the entire world, even amongst non-Muslim scholars. Predictions in the Quran have come true; and its teachings are clearly for all people, all places and all times.

Surprisingly enough, the Quran itself provides us with the test of authenticity and offers challenges against itself to prove its veracity. Allah tells us in the Quran:

Haven't the unbelievers considered if this was from other than Allah, they would find within it many contradictions?
[Noble Quran 4:82]

Another amazing challenge from Allah's Book:

If you are in doubt about it, bring a chapter like it.
[Noble Quran 2:23]

And Allah challenges us with:

Bring ten chapters like it.[Noble Quran 11:13]

And finally:

Bring one chapter like it.[Noble Quran 10:38]

For any religion to be pure and authentic, its scriptures should not contain any interpolation, addition, deletion or revision. Moreover the religion’s source of inspiration and direction should be Almighty God. The Qur’an is the only religious scripture on the face of the earth which has been maintained it its original form. All the other religious scriptures, of all the other religions have interpolations, additions, deletions or revisions. The Qur’an has been in the memory of a multitude of people, intact in its original form ever since its revelation, and now there are hundreds of thousands of people who have preserved it in their memory. Moreover, if you compare the copies made by Caliph Uthman from the original Qur’an which is yet present in the museum in Tashkent and in Koptaki museum in Turkey, they are the same as the ones we possess today.

Allah (swt) promises in the Qur’an, in Surah Al Hijr, chapter 15 verse 9

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."

MORE?

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God Allah - Does It Mean God? (http://godallah.com)
Is there evidence God Exists? What proof is there? Where is God? What is the Origin of God? Does God have limitations? Why did God create everything? Did God create evil too? Does God know future? Why so many religions? Can we prove Quran is from God? Why does Quran say, "We & He"? God of the Jews and Christians? Will all of us be treated equally?

Allah's Quran - Quran - A Guidance Without Doubt (http://www.allahsquran.com/)
All about Quran
A source of Guidance
Quran (Divine Book)
Quran-Proof of Revelation
What others Say
Quran Division?

Okay, I give up. I'm out of my league. Too scholarly for me. It seems like people are just copy and pasting stuff and not just speaking plain English. It should not be this hard to follow.

Cozyk... I feel the same way, well... about giving up that is... Just because people throw around a bunch of words doesn't prove their points any further than us speaking from our hearts. It's a shame that people can't just agree to disagree. Can't we all just agree that there is a God or creator... and the rest isn't really as important. It's sad that people can't come together because of the restrictions of religions... I'm sure God wouldn't have this going on back and forth... Happy Easter to all!

Cozyk...I feel the same way, well...about giving up that is...Just b/c people throw around a bunch of words doesn't prove their points any further than us speaking from our hearts. It's a shame that people can't just agree to disagree. Can't we all just agree that there is a God or creator...and the rest isn't really as important. It's sad that people can't come together b/c of the restrictions of religions.....I'm sure God wouldn't have this going on back and forth.....Happy Easter to all!

Don't you know it! Bottom line, there most likely is a creator of the universe. He/she/it wishes his creations would just be good boys and girls, be kind to one another, and help each other get through this life when times get tough. Everything else is just non-sense.
And you are right. No amount of big words, lofty proclamations, or declarations of truth REALLY matter.

Don't you know it! Bottom line, there most likely is a creator of the universe. He/she/it wishes his creations would just be good boys and girls, be kind to one another, and help each other get through this life when times get tough. Everything else is just non-sense.
And you are right. No amount of big words, lofty proclamations, or declarations of truth REALLY matter.

Beautifully said my friend!! :D

gromitt82,

I must admit that one line in one of your posts seems to accuse me of not believing in a world beyond ours. I also think that you said-maybe not so dramatically so-that I have no regard for my actions as long as they give me pleasure.

This is not at all what I meant. I feel that if you feel guilty, you have done something wrong. However, two people can do the same thing and perhaps not respond equally. This is not because they are evil but maybe because God never intended them to feel guilty about it otherwise he would have given them the means (other than the bible because not everyone is introduced to the bible) to feel that what they had done should make them feel guilty.

Does this make more sense than my original post? Sorry if I seem to be contradicting myself but you know how translations misinterpret meanings. That can happen from idea to written word to read word to conclusion... exhausting is it not?

On second thought I like what kelsey has said about agreeing that there is a God and letting it at peace. Obviously opinions are theories that we seek to prove by convincing others of their merit. I thank everyone for contributing though. Religious discussion just gets out of hand because it tends to turn into a persuasive thing. I know I am guilty of this. There is no discussion... just one question: Do you believe? If you wish to share ideas you must do it with the intention of record keeping and not for influence however others opinions and ideas are always healthy to hear because you may be able to learn from them. Though, that should probably only be done after hours and hours and hours and hours of getting to know someone. Wow, I sound like such and unresolute child. PEACE

Hi,
I believe that no religion is completely right for the fact that all people are individual and can not follow a list of rules agreed--not entirely--by a group of people who may be "too devout" for their own good. However, I do believe that every religion, no matter how bogus it may be does hold some truth. Religion is an organization and something like faith should not be organized but random and individual. On the other hand, you should have your own methods and ideas for how you follow the "Higher Power". Continuing on that note, do you also believe that what might be considered wrong, evil, a sin(or whatever slang you sling) for one person could be done with the same intention for another person and not be wrong at all?

Please, I welcome your opinions on this topic?

The Quran offers something that is not offered by other religious scriptures, in particular, and other religions, in general. It is what scientists demand.Today there are many people who have ideas and theories about how the universe works. These people are all over the place, but the scientific community does not even bother to listen to them. This is because within the last century the scientific community has demanded a test of falsification. They say, If you have theory, do not bother us with it unless you bring with that theory a way for us to prove whether you are wrong or not.
Such a test was exactly why the scientific community listened to Einstein towards the beginning of the century. He came with a new theory and said, I believe the universe works like this; and here are three ways to prove whether I am wrong! So the scientific community subjected his theory to the tests, and within six years it passed all three. Of course, this does not prove that he was great, but it proves that he deserved to be listened to because he said, This is my idea; and if you want to try to prove me wrong, do this or try that.
This is exactly what the Quran has - falsification tests. Some are old (in that they have already been proven true), and some still exist today. Basically it states, If this book is not what it claims to be, then all you have to do is this or this or this to prove that it is false. Of course, in 1400 years no one has been able to do This or this or this, and thus it is still considered true and authentic.

Islam provides man with a chance to verify it authenticity and prove it wrong occurs in the 4th chapter. It states (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82):
Do they not consider the Quran? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.
This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim. Basically, it invites him to find a mistake. As a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is inconsistent with mans personality. One doesn't take an exam in school and after finishing the exam, write a note to the instructor at the end saying, This exam is perfect. There are no mistakes in it. Find one if you can! One just doesn't do that. The teacher would not sleep until he found a mistake! And yet this is the way the Quran approaches people.

For any religion to be pure and authentic, its scriptures should not contain any interpolation, addition, deletion or revision. Moreover the religions source of inspiration and direction should be Almighty God. The Quran is the only religious scripture on the face of the earth which has been maintained it its original form. All the other religious scriptures, of all the other religions have interpolations, additions, deletions or revisions. The Quran has been in the memory of a multitude of people, intact in its original form ever since its revelation, and now there are hundreds of thousands of people who have preserved it in their memory. Moreover, if you compare the copies made by Caliph Uthman from the original Quran which is yet present in the museum in Tashkent and in Koptaki museum in Turkey, they are the same as the ones we possess today.

Allah (swt) promises in the Quran, in Surah Al Hijr, chapter 15 verse 9

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."

Allah Himself, has promised to preserve the Quran until the Last Days. And He has

It is the only book on earth that, if you destroyed every book on earth, we would be able to bring it back exactly as it was, every single letter from cover to cover, by the permission of Allah.

You are most welcome to review the facts and consider for yourself. The Quran makes claims within itself to its own authenticity

"This is the Book (Qur'an) wherein there is no doubt."
"If you are in doubt about it, bring a book like...

MORE?
visit

God Allah - Does It Mean God? (http://godallah.com/)
Why did God create everything?Did God create evil too? Does God know future? Why so many religions? Is there evidence God Exists? What proof is there? Where is God? What is the Origin of God? Does God have limitations? Did God create evil too? Does God know future? Why so many religions? Can we prove Quran is from God? God of the Jews & Christians? Will all of us be treated equally?

Allah's Quran - Quran - A Guidance Without Doubt (http://allahsquran.com/)
All about The Quran
A source of Guidance
Quran (Divine Book)
Quran - Proof of Revelation
What Others Say
Quran Division?

The Quran offers something that is not offered by other religious scriptures, in particular, and other religions, in general. It is what scientists demand.Today there are many people who have ideas and theories about how the universe works. These people are all over the place, but the scientific community does not even bother to listen to them. This is because within the last century the scientific community has demanded a test of falsification. They say, If you have theory, do not bother us with it unless you bring with that theory a way for us to prove whether you are wrong or not.
Such a test was exactly why the scientific community listened to Einstein towards the beginning of the century. He came with a new theory and said, I believe the universe works like this; and here are three ways to prove whether I am wrong! So the scientific community subjected his theory to the tests, and within six years it passed all three. Of course, this does not prove that he was great, but it proves that he deserved to be listened to because he said, This is my idea; and if you want to try to prove me wrong, do this or try that.
This is exactly what the Quran has - falsification tests. Some are old (in that they have already been proven true), and some still exist today. Basically it states, If this book is not what it claims to be, then all you have to do is this or this or this to prove that it is false. Of course, in 1400 years no one has been able to do This or this or this, and thus it is still considered true and authentic.

Islam provides man with a chance to verify it authenticity and prove it wrong occurs in the 4th chapter. It states (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82):
Do they not consider the Quran? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.
This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim. Basically, it invites him to find a mistake. As a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is inconsistent with mans personality. One doesnt take an exam in school and after finishing the exam, write a note to the instructor at the end saying, This exam is perfect. There are no mistakes in it. Find one if you can! One just doesnt do that. The teacher would not sleep until he found a mistake! And yet this is the way the Quran approaches people.

For any religion to be pure and authentic, its scriptures should not contain any interpolation, addition, deletion or revision. Moreover the religions source of inspiration and direction should be Almighty God. The Quran is the only religious scripture on the face of the earth which has been maintained it its original form. All the other religious scriptures, of all the other religions have interpolations, additions, deletions or revisions. The Quran has been in the memory of a multitude of people, intact in its original form ever since its revelation, and now there are hundreds of thousands of people who have preserved it in their memory. Moreover, if you compare the copies made by Caliph Uthman from the original Quran which is yet present in the museum in Tashkent and in Koptaki museum in Turkey, they are the same as the ones we possess today.

Allah (swt) promises in the Quran, in Surah Al Hijr, chapter 15 verse 9

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."

Allah Himself, has promised to preserve the Quran until the Last Days. And He has

It is the only book on earth that, if you destroyed every book on earth, we would be able to bring it back exactly as it was, every single letter from cover to cover, by the permission of Allah.

You are most welcome to review the facts and consider for yourself. The Quran makes claims within itself to its own authenticity

"This is the Book (Qur'an) wherein there is no doubt."
"If you are in doubt about it, bring a book like...

MORE?
visit

God Allah - Does It Mean God? (http://godallah.com/)
Why did God create everything?Did God create evil too? Does God know future? Why so many religions? Is there evidence God Exists? What proof is there? Where is God? What is the Origin of God? Does God have limitations? Did God create evil too? Does God know future? Why so many religions? Can we prove Quran is from God? God of the Jews & Christians? Will all of us be treated equally?

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Appreciate your continuous posts... but I think this topic is over. Let it rest. Thanks.

On second thought I like what kelsey has said about agreeing that their is a God and letting it at peace. Obviously opinions are theories that we seek to prove by convincing others of their merit. I thank everyone for contributing though. Religious discussion just gets out of hand because it tends to turn into a persuasive thing. I know I am guilty of this. There is no discussion...just one question: Do you believe? If you wish to share ideas you must do it with the intention of record keeping and not for influence however others opinions and ideas are always healthy to hear because you may be able to learn from them. Though, that should probably only be done after hours and hours and hours and hours of getting to know someone. Wow, I sound like such and unresolute child. PEACE

Thanks Malen! I'm so sorry the topic had to go this far. But its true, as long as you know that God exists and you appreciate every moment that you live... you'll be fine. If you find comfort in religion then that's great! But if it's not for you, that's just as great. Don't let anyone pressure you into believing something that you don't feel right believing. You do not need to believe in a religion to be loved by God. Just thank him for all the beautiful experiences he's allowed us to have. I hope this helps. May you have a blessed journey hun! Peace, Kelsey.

gromitt82,

I must admit that one line in one of your posts seems to accuse me of not believing in a world beyond ours. I also think that you said-maybe not so dramatically so-that I have no regard for my actions as long as they give me pleasure.

This is not at all what I meant. I feel that if you feel guilty, you have done something wrong. However, two people can do the exact same thing and perhaps not respond equally. This is not because they are evil but maybe because God never intended them to feel guilty about it otherwise he would have given them the means (other than the bible because not everyone is introduced to the bible) to feel that what they had done should make them feel guilty.

Does this make more sense than my original post? Sorry if I seem to be contradicting myself but you know how translations misinterpret meanings. That can happen from idea to written word to read word to conclusion....exhausting is it not?


God made us free to determine our own behaviour according to our own decisions and whims. And God made us all alike (Bible or no Bible). I mean, as all living beings in our Planet, we all have instincts and basic needs; human, on top, also have feelings, which are equal irrespective of colour and/or provenance.

Most assassins, serial killers or serial rapists do not show any sign of feeling guilty at all which I do not think it implies that God “never intended them to feel guilty”. They just kill because they are wicked psychopaths who actually enjoy what they are doing...

What I do think is that God created us and provided us with a sort of natural law normal humans abide by, irrespective of their religion.

Later on, God gave Moses the 10 Commandments that substantially are the same of this Natural Law.

So when normal people do something that goes against that Natural Law they are sorry for the intimately know they have done something wrong.

What matters, therefore, is what you actually feel inside you, not what you pretend to be the reason of your behaviour.

More often than not, we tend to justify our actions in front of others by using a somewhat lenient ethics which we have built to suit us, as a tailor-made dress.

This is why I wished you good luck, a bit ironically; because, irrespective of how you may justify your behaviour and of what you believe, you will eventually be judged by the Creator in function of his Justice NOT of ours.
:):)

What matters, therefore, is what you actually feel inside you, not what you pretend to be the reason of your behaviour.

I couldn't agree more with this statement.;)

I appreciate all your efforts in using all these big words but Lordy Lordy, I get a headache trying to un-twist them into common speak. Could you give it to me again in simple layman's terms please?



OK, even English is not my native language, but Spanish, I will try to make my previous post more “edible” to you.

You are driving on the NY highway and you can see nobody in miles and miles of road ahead of you. Still you are respecting the 65 mph limit because that’s the Law. At a given moment you push a little on the gas pedal and reach the 90 mph. But almost immediately you feel sorry and go back to the 65 mph speed. That’s PERFECT CONTRITION. You are sincerely sorry for breaking the Law.

The same situation as before. But when you have reached the 90 mph you reduce your speed back to the 65 mph because YOU HAVE SPOTTED A BIG BILLBOARD behind which you know a police car may eventually hide. So you reduce your speed FOR FEAR you may receive a fine from the cops.

That is ATRITION or IMPERFECT CONTRITION.

In both cases you abide by the law. But in the first case you do it because you are obedient, while in the other you do it for fear of the consequences.
Got it?:):)

I couldn't agree more with this statement.;)

Cozyk,

There is a way that seemeth right unto man, but the END thereof is the way of death. Proverbs 16:25.

I know this verse won't make you stop and say... Wow Tess THAT is in the Bible. Lol but I could resist quoting it. It is the what God thinks of man's thoughts and feelings outside of scripture. Course, if you don't think the Bible is truth, it doesn't mean much. But I thought I'd throw it out there anyway. Something to consider. :)

THANK YOU Gromitt, so much better. I think I am guilty of both. I feel guilty when I do wrong because I know I've disappointed something that is bigger and better than me. On top of that, the chance of getting caught can also inter into the equation. But I have to say contrition is my biggest motivating factor.

Cozyk,

There is a way that seemeth right unto man, but the END thereof is the way of death. Proverbs 16:25.

I know this verse won't make you stop and say...Wow Tess THAT is in the Bible. lol but i could resist quoting it. it is the what God thinks of man's thoughts and feelings outside of scripture. course, if you don't think the Bible is truth, it doesn't mean much. But i thought i'd throw it out there anyways. Something to consider. :)

Thanks for trying Class. I get the first part, "what seems right or feels right inside to man." But, the second part "but the END thereof is the way of death. What exactly does that mean? Doing what feels right inside will be the death of us... literally? And it won't be very nice?

Don't you know it! Bottom line, there most likely is a creator of the universe. He/she/it wishes his creations would just be good boys and girls, be kind to one another, and help each other get through this life when times get tough.

I strongly disagree. The Universe doesn't care at all what we do here on Earth. It's entirely up to us how we behave. The Creator has way bigger things to care for. This explains all this CHAOS around.

THANK YOU Gromitt, so much better. I think I am guilty of both. I feel guilty when I do wrong because I know I've disappointed something that is bigger and better than me. On top of that, the chance of getting caught can also inter into the equation. But I have to say contrition is my biggest motivating factor.


Let me congratulate you for going by your own statement you are much better than I am.
I am quite motivated by my beliefs but, unfortunately, I must humbly admit that most of the time, my behavior, deep inside me, is mostly motivated by the atrition sorrow, i.e. by fear of the eventual punishment.

No matter how much I keep on telling myself that I love our Lord I know that is not the pure love a baby has for his/her mother or father, but a love tinted with respect and fear of displeasing the Lord with my deeds.

I do not know whether you are familiar with the poetry of the 16th century poet St. John of the Cross. But his poems to the Lord are those of a man absolutely and unconditionally in love with his Father, God.

I guess one has to be a saint to feel anything like that.

I strongly disagree. The Universe doesn't care at all what we do here on Earth. It's entirely up to us how we behave. The Creator has way bigger things to care for. This explains all this CHAOS around.


Universon,

If you do not mind let my give my point of view on what you have just said.

a) The Earth is an insignificant part of the Universe. And as such, it follows the Universal Laws that control the whole Universe.

b) As for our Creator, we are not to even start guessing what the things the Creator cares for are. Assuming, of course, the Creator and us, humans, use the same terminology and logic. I can’t help thinking that many of us think of God as a venerable and August white bearded prophet sitting in his throne way up in Heaven and looking down on us while wondering whether he should or should not interfere in our petty problems...

But, actually, all we know is that God sent his Son to redeem us (an immense prove of love for mankind) and, subsequently, we were left free to determine whether we wanted to accept this token of love or refuse it.

To start with, why do we think Heaven is above us?

Do we honestly have any idea of where God’s Kingdom actually is? :):)

I strongly disagree. The Universe doesn't care at all what we do here on Earth. It's entirely up to us how we behave. The Creator has way bigger things to care for. This explains all this CHAOS around.

Back at cha. I couldn't disagree with you more. The Creator is big enough for all of it.

Back at cha. I couldn't disagree with you more. The Creator is big enough for all of it.

What's the Creator for you?

What's the Creator for you?

It is everything that is.

It is everything that is.

Well, I meant does it help people? Does it punishing people, give us a freedom, or limits it? And HOW do we get help from the Creator? What's your way of doing that? I just want to learn. Thx

I believe closer with you, then I have with anyone else. It very refreshing to read this.. its like I wrote it myself!

I believe closer with you, then i have with anyone else. It very refreshing to read this.. its like i wrote it myself!!

I'm not sure who you are agreeing with. Is it universal guy or cozyk?

Well, I meant does it help people? Does it punishing people, give us a freedom, or limits it? And HOW do we get help from the Creator? What's your way of doing that? I just wanna learn. Thx

Well, here's the thing. It is so great that it is beyond our comprehension. At least that is my personal belief. It/He/God/Creator/Divine Spirit/ is everything that is right and good and intelligent and loving and powerful and any other word you can come up with that is positive. He is a listener when I need to spill, He inspires me when I feel helpless, He comforts me when I feel sad or lost. What It isn't (IMHO) is evil, petty, punishing, scary, vindictive, tricky, or any other negative word you can come up with.

If anyone has noticed, I'm very deliberate with my capitalization of certain words. When I speak of the god most christians speak of in the bible that is killing people, angry all the time, etc. I write it like this. God-he-him, and so on.

When I am referring to the Power of goodness that I call God for symplaciy's sake, I write it like this. God-He-Him You get the picture?

I'm not sure who you are agreeing with. Is it universal guy or cozyk?

Cozyk and Universon,

I'm sort of puzzled. What are you debating regarding the Creator of everything? Do you really debate what our Creator's designs are? Do you actually believe you know anything about our Creator other than the entire Universe and whatever it contains is the Creator's work?

Hi,
I believe that no religion is completely right for the fact that all people are individual and can not follow a list of rules agreed--not entirely--by a group of people who may be "too devout" for their own good. However, I do believe that every religion, no matter how bogus it may be does hold some truth. Religion is an organization and something like faith should not be organized but random and individual. On the other hand, you should have your own methods and ideas for how you follow the "Higher Power". Continuing on that note, do you also believe that what might be considered wrong, evil, a sin(or whatever slang you sling) for one person could be done with the same intention for another person and not be wrong at all?

Please, I welcome your opinions on this topic?

I agree not only is it meaningless its also very limiting, religion is like a spiritual governance, in that it dictates to us how we should live and I am not sure anyone can actually live up to their full potential with such limitations inplace. Its not what the creator intended for us in this life.

i agree not only is it meaningless its also very limiting, religion is like a spiritual governance, in that it dictates to us how we should live and i am not sure anyone can actually live up to their full potential with such limitations inplace. its not what the creator intended for us in this life.

In the first place Christians are NOT dictated how they should live, for GOD made us free to live our own way. We are simply being told what we have to do if we really want to be able to enter GOD's Kingdom one day.
Actually, we are certainly much more free as far as following GOD's Law or not than we are as far as following men's law right here.
We are subject to a set of rules that we better abide by or else...
God's Law is simpler - You only have 11 Commandments to follow, but if you don't, nobody will sent you to jail or fine you... You will ONLY have to account for your deeds and actions ONCE you are NO LONGER here... And then, what you think now will not matter ANY MORE...
Incidentally, I wish you could tell us what is what the creator intended for us in this life and how do you know it... :D

In the first place Christians are NOT dictated how they should live, for GOD made us free to live our own way. We are simply being told what we have to do if we really want to be able to enter in GOD's Kingdom one day.
Actually, we are certainly much more free as far as following GOD's Law or not than we are as far as following men's law right here.
We are subject to a set of rules that we better abide by or else...
God's Law is simpler - You only have 11 Commandments to follow, but if you don't, nobody will sent you to jail or fine you... You will ONLY have to account for your deeds and actions ONCE you are NO LONGER here... And then, what you think now will not matter ANY MORE...
Incidentally, I wish you could tell us what is what the creator intended for us in this life and how do you know it...:D

I don't know for sure, its just my personal belief is that the creator put us on this earth to fulfill the specific destiny of each soul that inhabits this earth. Where all part of the master plan in which every soul is enlightened and has attained a higher level of counciousness, when we discover the light within us and we tap into it to discover that we are all god's in our own right.

Every thing that we need in this life was given to us from the creator @ birth but its up to us to find it and religion and the church in my opinion does not help with this journey except to confuse and lead people astray and away from the truth.

i dont know for sure, its just my personal beleif is that the creator put us on this earth to fulfill the the specific destiny of each soul that inhabits this earth. Where all part of the master plan in which every soul is enlightened and has attained a higher level of counciousness, when we discover the light within us and we tap into it to discover that we are all god's in our own right.

Every thing that we need in this life was given to us from the creator @ birth but its up to us to find it and religion and the church in my opinion does not help with this journey except to confuse and lead ppl astray and away from the truth.

My sentiments exactly.We do not have to wait for Jesus to return to know we are God like now!
I don't believe churches lead people astray.There is a beautiful fellowship in church and I love it! It is beautiful if you are in the right church for you.
It's a beautiful thing when we find our spot!

Well, here's the thing. It is so great that it is beyond our comprehension. At least that is my personal belief. It/He/God/Creator/Divine Spirit/ is everything that is right and good and intelligent and loving and powerful and any other word you can come up with that is positive. He is a listener when I need to spill, He inspires me when I feel helpless, He comforts me when I feel sad or lost. What It isn't (IMHO) is evil, petty, punishing, scary, vindictive, tricky, or any other negative word you can come up with.

If anyone has noticed, I'm very deliberate with my capitalization of certain words. When I speak of the god most christians speak of in the bible that is killing people, angry all the time, etc. I write it like this. god-he-him, and so on.

When I am referring to the Power of goodness that I call God for symplaciy's sake, I write it like this. God-He-Him You get the picture?

Beautiful! You made me smile :) I love what you had to say,and I must say I needed that today :D

Beautiful! You made me smile :) I love what you had to say,and I must say I needed that today :D

Glad to be of service artlady!:D

My sentiments exactly.We do not have to wait for Jesus to return to know we are God like now!
I don't believe churches lead people astray.There is a beautiful fellowship in church and I love it! It is beautiful if you are in the right church for you.
It's a beautiful thing when we find our spot!

Very true but with most pastors that I have met wanting get rich by fleecing their flocks has not allowed me to look @ the church in such a positive light anymore

That's not what God says. Those who don't obey Him will be sent to Hell. Period. Even those who say they believe in Him, if they don't obey will be sent to Hell. He will not allow sin (unconfessed and blood covered) into His presence. There WILL be a day when all who live and have ever lived will stand before Him in judgment. I hope my name is in His book of life. I hope I can remain obedient until that day.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

The Narrow Way

22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”


So you say, and so the bible says. That doesn't make it truth.

So you say, and so the bible says. That doesn't make it truth.


So true Cozyk!! Everyone else, Ugh, why is this discussion still going on?? I thought it was done like 5 times now, and honestly I'm tired of getting the emails. People, whatever makes you keep on kicking believe. Lets not beat it into the ground anymore.

So true Cozyk!!! Everyone else, Ugh, why is this discussion still going on???? I thought it was done like 5 times now, and honestly I'm tired of getting the emails. People, whatever makes you keep on kicking believe. Lets not beat it into the ground anymore.

This is the only decison/opinion that I agree with since the start of this threa close it down already :D

With regard to the title of the thread, I would disagree completely with the statement expressed therein. Religion is ALL about "meaning", a fundamental expression of dissatisfaction with the seemingly absurd nature of existence. Why does anything exist at all? Why not rather nothing? Observation, such as scientific inquiry can offer only a causal exposition, and no "explantion" whatsoever. Mankind is completely ill equipped to "discover" any meaning, therefore it must be invented.

We can argue all we like as to the usefulness of invented "truth" (truth is in itself, a concept invented by man), however this would be futile. To hold that a "fictional" meaning is of no use, would be to deny the usefulness of life itself. I rail against such nihlism, and "those that would prefer a handful of certain nothing, over a cartload of beautiful, uncertain possiblities" (Nietzsche).


We should not concern ourselves with what is "truth", but rather what is what is "life-preserving", or even "life-enhancing", and it is here that I find many popular beliefs fall short. The message of Christ, died a very early death it would seem, and was replaced with the Platonic ideal of "the good in itself". Consider the "ideal religion" as given in Plato's Republic, it describes something suspiciously like Christianity. Consider also that it was written 350 years before Christ was born. Indeed, it seems that Greek influence on the New Testament extends well beyond a simple renaming of the noble Joshua. Christianity is no more than "Platonism for the masses".

For me it seems to make little sense to ascribe any meaning to life, other than to LIVE. This means embracing ALL of life, good and bad. What can you know of love, if you don't know what it is to hate? How can you know what it is to find peace, if you have not felt strife? What can you tell me about victory, if you have never tasted defeat? Each of these concepts is dependent on the other, and to me life is made up of all and none of these things.