Hi, I have been a practicing Catholic my whole life. I was baptized and confirmed and all that. I am 20 and go to college and still attend church on my own. I recently took a class on biology and it mostly concentrated on evolution. I feel so horrible about myself that I would even have the slightest doubt that God exists, because I have been believing my whole life. The things I have learned in class seem to make sense, but then I look outside and know that all the beauty could not have just been formed with one "bang". I believe that God and evolution coexist. I feel like I have so many questions that I have never even thought about questioning before, and it makes me feel very upset. For instance, if Adam and Eve were the first people, and they had 2 sons, how did everyone else come about? How could all the people come from them if there were only 2 males born? But then again, maybe some stories in the Bible are fabricated. I don't really know what I'm asking, just wondering if someone could help me feel better or relate to me in some way. Thanks

First, try not to feel bad about having doubts. St. Augustine said that working through our doubts is what leads us to a mature faith. Doubt isn't always the same thing as a lack of faith: doubts come and go, they are often transient, whereas faith abides. Confront your doubts, work through them, but don't despair, don't accept the voice of doubt as the final word.

Second, don't hold fast to a literal interpretation of the Bible. The Church doesn't. The Bible doesn't even interpret itself literally! In fact, the Church teaches that evolution is perfectly compatible with the truths of the faith. So be patient and find a good spiritual advisor. Maybe start with your priest. Which leads me to...

Third, talk to your priest. You can do it in confession if you'd be more comfortable that way. But talk with him about how you're feeling. Don't feel it's your job to sort everything out all at once. Allow yourself to receive the help of others. If you have friends or family who are strong in the faith, ask them to help you. If not, again, ask your priest to help you. Be humble, let hom know how you feel about the doubts you are having, that you want to overcome them but need help doing so.

I would start with these.

I wish you all the best.

NewYork:

It’s my understanding that Catholics are free to believe in any creation theory that doesn’t eliminate God as first Cause. The Book of Genius is viewed by many to be allegorical; it’s my understanding that our Catholic faith doesn’t require that we believe in a literal Adam and Eve. However with that said, I tend to lean in both a literal interpretation of creation as well as the story of Adam and Eve. On top of that I’m also trained in the sciences. So fire me for not believing in the Big Bang!

I don't understand where the conflict is?

JoeT

Yeah I don't really think I have a conflict, I just have minor doubts about all the stories in the Bible. And I don't know if anyone saw that face-off thing on abc awhile ago with the atheist and the Christian men? It just made me start to wonder, and I hate that I even have to wonder. Ahh I'm just rambling

thank you very much for your help, it makes me feel better

If there's ever anything I can do just say the word. You can post it here or PM me anytime.

You'll be in my thoughts... and prayers.

Yeah I don't really think I have a conflict, I just have minor doubts about all the stories in the Bible. And i dont know if anyone saw that face-off thing on abc awhile ago with the atheist and the Christian men? It just made me start to wonder, and I hate that I even have to wonder. ahh im just rambling

Fair enough. Just try to keep in mind that we can harness our doubts to move us forward, to a deeper understanding of the faith, a broader knowledge of the teachings of the Church, and a greater intimacy with God. Try not to let the doubts scare you (though I completely understand how they can).

Somebody a long long time ago told me
"When in doubt, doubt the doubt!"
Makes perfect sense to me. If something they are trying to teach you in school is contrary to what the Bible teaches. And I understand that you need to spew the party line to get the grades to graduate, but that does not mean that you have to believe the lies of Satan.

Akoue they wouldn't let me rate your answer again because I need to spread it around or something it said haha.. but I really appreciate your kindness

NewYork -

I'll quote Akoue: "First, try not to feel bad about having doubts. St. Augustine said that working through our doubts is what leads us to a mature faith." New York, my belief is that the way God shows us that he loves us is by allowing our faith to be tested, precisely because it leads to maturity. In the book of James, James says that the testing of our faith is more precious than gold. At first glance, it might not seem like it's all that big a deal but if you have the eyes to see it, our faith and its withstanding of trials is ultimately worth more than anything this life has to offer.

One thing that I may disagree with a little is the notion to doubt the doubt. I understand 450donn's point; however, it is my experience that lingering doubt is really there I think to point me to my greater need for understanding. I think God stirs a person towards a mature faith by allowing him/her to experience situations where his/her faith is drawn out into the open. Someone can grow up learning biblical truths in Sunday school or catechism classes but in a sense, he or she is really sitting on those truths because only as people encounter life as a young adult can they really learn and be confronted with self-reflective questions like: what do I believe? What am I hoping in? Is God real? Is God good? What do I want most of all in this life?

For the most part, children and teenagers aren't altogether equipped to really answer those questions because their minds aren't completely developed and also because they haven't experienced enough of life yet. New York, I'd say being in college is really a means to an end in this process I mentioned above. You have to wrestle with what you believe because your faith needs to mature. So my advice isn't to doubt the doubt but ultimately to seek the truth and allow the truth to take you where it leads you.

Lastly, regarding evolution. There have been attempts to reconcile the different views of the biblical account of creation and evolution. My own personal view is that evolution is not compatible with the bible for various reasons that I couldn't begin to chronicle here. There are enough scientific experts out there who can really expand upon the incompatibilities of the creationist and evolutionist worldview:

The Institute for Creation Research (http://www.icr.org/)

Answers in Genesis - Creation, Evolution, Christian Apologetics (http://www.answersingenesis.org/)

Philosophically, evolution has been used to justify racism (the Holocaust), hatred (the Columbine shooters were heavily indoctrinated by Evolutionist theory), and ultimately leads to despair and hopelessness because evolution (at least the form taught in most colleges and universities) completely denies the existence of a good and loving God who created man for a reason.

Just some of my cursory thoughts. Some may disagree with me and that's fine but I'd be happy to address any rebuttals with further arguments for my position.

Akoue agrees: I actually don't agree with you about the evolution part, but I thought the first three paragaphs were absolutely superb. (Maybe we can talk about evolution on another thread.)

Akoue - okay, why don't you start a new thread and give me the link... I'll be glad to explore this subject more.

jakester,

You strike me as a very reasonable and thoughtful guy. Even when I find myself disagreeing with you, I always enjoy your posts. And I think that a discussion with you about evolution would most likely be rewarding. But I've seen what happens to threads that try to address evolution and the Bible--they get particularly ugly particularly quickly. So, no offense, but I don't think I'll be the one to get that particular ball rolling.

"Doubts are the ants in the pants of faith." --Frederick Buechner

"Doubts are the ants in the pants of faith." --Frederick Buechner

We can always count on you to cut right to the chase.

jakester,

You strike me as a very reasonable and thoughtful guy. Even when I find myself disagreeing with you, I always enjoy your posts. And I think that a discussion with you about evolution would most likely be rewarding. But I've seen what happens to threads that try to address evolution and the Bible--they get particularly ugly particularly quickly. So, no offense, but I don't think I'll be the one to get that particular ball rolling.

Akoue - I agree; posts can turn ugly especially because so many people have so much invested in their own worldview: myself included. Perhaps I will start a thread at some point and invite you to the discussion.

Your comments are much appreciated and very encouraging.

Akoue - I agree; posts can turn ugly especially because so many people have so much invested in their own worldview: myself included. Perhaps I will start a thread at some point and invite you to the discussion.

Your comments are much appreciated and very encouraging.

Maybe we can work together to try to keep things on a good note.
All the best.

Maybe we can work together to try to keep things on a good note.
All the best.
*wondering how I can stir up a hornet's nest*

NewYork123,
You have been given some very good advice here so far.
AND HERE is a good place to spend some time reading and participating because some very knowledgeable people post here.
I will comment on the Adam and Eve subject.
There is no pace in the bible which says that they have just two sons.
Back in those days the birth of girls was not considered important enough to mention.
It is very likely that Cain married a sister.
That is a general belief I have often heard used.
And it does make sense to me.
Please continue to participate here.
I'm sure that you will find it helpful.
I have had some doubts of my own dealt with here and was helped.
I do believe that God IS the creator of all that is seen and unseen and that He started that creation billions of years ago with a bang that was designed His way.
So I also believe in some form of evolution and there are many scientists who believe as I do on that.
Darwin's evolution has been heavily criticized for the many errors science has found in that theory. Often in many colleges those error are not addressed. That's sad.
I also believe that God is the author of life.
Evolution can not make that statement or prove beyond a "doubt" that life evolved by chance.
Being the author of life is why I also believe that there is life of some forms scattered throughout the universe
So give your doubts an airing here. There are several here who would like to help you (and themselves) deal with those doubts.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hello NewYork123 !

There are other discussions on evolution on Ask Me Help Desk.

See the science section - LINK. (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/other-science/)

There is even a religious discussions board with posts on evolution - LINK (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/)

:)

.

Also we know that esp the OT is the history of the Hewbrew Nation, We don't get the history of many other nations. What we do know is the facts of the bible, the details of exactly how is not always known. While the most accepted idea is that Cain married one of his sisters,

But then we also do not know that God did not create other men and women either.

And accepting either or just not knowing does not change the history we get from the bible.

Hi, I have been a practicing Catholic my whole life. I was baptized and confirmed and all that. That's how I started too, then, like you, I went to good colleges and university - now I'm an atheist and happy. It's an option to consider, the world doesn't end with lack of belief in a god.

I can't think of any reason, ever a remote one, to become an atheist.
There is no hope or future in that for any person.
Atheists struggle though this life to go nowhere.
It seems to me that they spend their life spiritually alone.
To me atheism is a hopeless existence.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I can't think of any reason, ever a remote one, to become an atheist.
There is no hope or future in that for any person.
Atheists struggle though this life to go nowhere.
It seems to me that they spend their life spiritually alone.
To me atheism is a hopeless existence.
Peace and kindness,
FredTo each his own. :)

NeedKarma,
Yup.
I'll go along with that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I can't think of any reason, ever a remote one, to become an atheist.
There is no hope or future in that for any person.
Atheists struggle though this life to go nowhere.
It seems to me that they spend their life spiritually alone.
To me atheism is a hopeless existence.
Peace and kindness,
Fred


I will remind everyone this is the Christianity board, and it is the christian teaching that if you are not a Christian you are not saved.
So a Atheist does not have the promise or hope of salvation, and without the hope of a life after this.

This is the basis of the faith, that a Christian tells the unsaved to help lead them to salvation.

All I can say if you don't want to hear a christian teaching, don't come to a christian board and thread.

Fr_Chuck,
That's some good sound advice.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Do you ever feel that when we die, since God is so forgiving and loving, that he could really send someone to Hell? What if an atheist dies and stands before God and realizes they were wrong, is it too late for them or do you think they are going to Hell? (Not saying atheist's are going to Hell, so I hope NeedKarma doesn't take offense, I just mean since most Christians believe this)

The Catholic Church teaches that it isn't for us to judge who is and who isn't going to hell. Judgment is God's prerogative. It is for us to do the best we can and to hope, to struggle against despair when despair becomes tempting. Some denominations say other things, but this is what the Catholic Church holds. And because God is both infintely merciful and infinitely just, we cannot know how things will play out in the end. We should never say that someone is going to hell; nor should we ever assume that we are going to heaven. We should, however, be hopeful (and not just for ourselves but for everyone).

NewYork123 ,
I agree with Akoue.
I also believe that there is a place of cleansing where many will go to have their sinful nature purged to be ready to enter God's Heavenly Kingdom pure and clean.
Why?
Because nothing impure or unclean can enter heaven.
Even though we are baptized and have confessed our sins and aske for forgiveness we mortals continue to sin during our lives. That is due to our sinful nature which must be purged in Purgatory.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Do you ever feel that when we die, since God is so forgiving and loving, that he could really send someone to Hell? What if an atheist dies and stands before God and realizes they were wrong, is it too late for them or do you think they are going to Hell? (Not saying atheist's are going to Hell, so I hope NeedKarma doesn't take offense, i just mean since most Christians believe this)No offence taken at all. Your thought is not a new one, in fact it's very old and called Pascal's Wager. You can read more about it here: Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_gambit)

Do you ever feel that when we die, since God is so forgiving and loving, that he could really send someone to Hell? What if an atheist dies and stands before God and realizes they were wrong, is it too late for them or do you think they are going to Hell? (Not saying atheist's are going to Hell, so I hope NeedKarma doesn't take offense, i just mean since most Christians believe this)

NewYork -

This is a complex question but certainly one that requires serious contemplation.

It is true that God is forgiving and loving because what is so explicit in Christ's death on the cross is that he willingly subjected himself to die so that others may be forgiven and live—that is what is so significant about his death from our human perspective. Isaiah the prophet put it this way (concerning Christ):

Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

What I understand the prophet to be saying here is that Jesus took upon himself the guilt and sin of humanity and in doing so, has made a way for man to have peace with God. If we were to ever look for an example of how God is both forgiving and loving, this is the supreme and ultimately meaningful example to be found in scripture.

To really comprehend the significance of Christ's sacrifice, we really need to understand the other aspect of God's nature and that is his desire for righteousness and justice. To refer back to Christ's crucifixion, what is explicit in his death is that he was satisfying the demands of God's desire for justice against sin and unrighteousness. God's mercy and forgiveness is a double-edged sword because on the one hand God is choosing to be merciful towards someone in spite of his evil but on the other hand there is still the evil deed that I committed which God will not turn a blind eye to. What I mean is that if God was never interested in being just and righteous then we would all do well to applaud evil along with good since in God's eyes, he is really indifferent. But the truth is, he is not indifferent. In fact, he demands justice against sin and when Jesus was killed, he was satisfying this demand. So then, the only way anyone ever receives mercy from God is through Christ, since God is willing to forgive us for our sins because Christ died the death we deserved…justice comes from one of two ways, either I accept Christ’s payment for my sin or I deny his sacrifice for me and opt to withstand the punishment of God for my sin on my own accord.

Now to the idea of an atheist standing before God and realizing he was wrong, I have a couple of thoughts on that. Your statement assumes that the atheist would be truly interested in receiving mercy from God on Judgment Day. The problem with that assumption, I think, is that is fails to recognize something profoundly true about human nature. Human beings are stubbornly hostile towards God naturally. An atheist is not an atheist because there isn’t enough information to go on but because he is hostile towards God and the truth…he does not want to believe in God and does not want to know the truth. We do not want to acknowledge God’s presence in our lives nor his authority over us. Paul says in Romans 1:

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.”

Because of this ingrained hostility in us, we will go on in our delusion refusing to bow the knee to God and acknowledge his rightful place of authority in our lives. This is why time and again in the bible we are told to repent and believe the gospel. The issue of the day is that we need to lay down our weapons of hostility against God while there is still time. God’s mercy is limited to a time and that time is during our existence here on earth. When we die, it will be too late. Each of us has to repent now and submit to God and learn his ways or else be destroyed on the Day of Judgment. At least this is how I understand the bible.

jakester,
Well said.
Fred

Jakester, thank you for taking to time to answer my question, it was very helpful.

Do you ever feel that when we die, since God is so forgiving and loving, that he could really send someone to Hell? What if an atheist dies and stands before God and realizes they were wrong, is it too late for them or do you think they are going to Hell? (Not saying atheist's are going to Hell, so I hope NeedKarma doesn't take offense, i just mean since most Christians believe this)

I don't believe God sends ANYONE to hell. Like you said, he is forgiving and loving. Think about the descriptions of hell you have been taught. NO WAY, would God permit such a thing.

There is A LOT of area between doubting what you have been taught (notice I didn't say what you believe) and atheism. I congratulate you for your growth. Only a closed mind doesn't question. Prior to this you were told what you were to believe. Now, you have come out of that "zone or haze" of compliance and begun to think for yourself. That is healthy in my book. No sheep here.

If you are like me, it's will be a journey that can go on for years. I am a very logical person and common sense rules. I am constantly in seeking and learning mode . I guess it all boils down to a connection I feel with an "energy" that I call "God." I'm sure my idea of God is just one of the many millions of ideas about who or what is God. This energy encompasses everything that is good, and light, and secure, and protective, and doles out unconditional love . It's where I came from before I was born and it's where I believe I will return when I die. But you know what? Who REALLY knows.

Anyhoo, this energy that I feel in my heart, is with me 24/7 and has my back. No matter what cruelties this life dishes out, I feel that I will be okay in the end. But hey, that's just me. I wish you well in your journey.

BTW, all the "particulars" about the creation of our planet, who had incestuous relations, with who, basically... doesn't matter. I mean who came up with these people anyway. And who named them Adam and Eve. And who knows how many other children they had. And this planet covers millions of square miles. Who's to say that there wasn't other people in other parts of this world that have not been written about. Doesn't add up at all when you think logically. And if incest is a sin, why would God put them in a position to have to do this. Think about it.:)

I don't believe God sends ANYONE to hell. Like you said, he is forgiving and loving. Think about the descriptions of hell you have been taught. NO WAY, would God permit such a thing.

There is A LOT of area between doubting what you have been taught (notice I didn't say what you believe) and atheism. I congratulate you for your growth. Only a closed mind doesn't question. Prior to this you were told what you were to believe. Now, you have come out of that "zone or haze" of compliance and begun to think for yourself. That is healthy in my book. No sheep here.

If you are like me, it's will be a journey that can go on for years. I am a very logical person and common sense rules. I am constantly in seeking and learning mode . I guess it all boils down to a connection I feel with an "energy" that I call "God." I'm sure my idea of God is just one of the many millions of ideas about who or what is God. This energy encompasses everything that is good, and light, and secure, and protective, and doles out unconditional love . It's where I came from before I was born and it's where I believe I will return when I die. But you know what? Who REALLY knows.

Anyhoo, this energy that I feel in my heart, is with me 24/7 and has my back. No matter what cruelties this life dishes out, I feel that I will be okay in the end. But hey, that's just me. I wish you well in your journey.

BTW, all the "particulars" about the creation of our planet, who had incestuous relations, with who, basically ...doesn't matter. I mean who came up with these people anyway. and who named them Adam and Eve. And who knows how many other children they had. And this planet covers millions of square miles. Who's to say that there wasn't other people in other parts of this world that have not been written about. Doesn't add up at all when you think logically. And if incest is a sin, why would God put them in a position to have to do this.? Think about it.:)

I have mixed feelings about your comments. Part of me understands perfectly why you think the way that you do because I once held beliefs similar to yours. But on the other hand your comments strike me as being somewhat pretentious—that you think your ideas carry a lot of authority to them. I argue my beliefs and assumptions from the bible because I believe it to carry authority. I provide reasons and arguments based upon the text of the bible and if you read the bible yourself, the things I am saying are not things that I have made up... they are taken from the words of Christ and the teachings of the apostles. Now, I'm not saying that you need to believe what I am saying but, cozyk, if you are to be taken seriously, it would be better for you to argue from the same text why you think I am mistaken—about how God will not condemn anyone to hell and how Adam and Eve were made up names, and how God is merely an energy.

The explicit absence of any reasoning on your part from the same text I used to support my arguments is proof that not only do you think the bible is a fable (which is what you have been implying all along) but you think that your own ideas carry much more authority than the bible. All of your assumptions and arguments that you cited came from your own mind. I just wanted to be clear and just get that out into the open that you think you are God!

cozyk,
So bcause some Christian disagrees with you that person is not being a good Christian.
Interesting that is.
But you ar not alone. It is a tactic used by many.
That sad part is that it is a hollow tactic a very judgmental.
You said about the bible "It's hearsay. That can't be considered truth."
I've go news for you. Many millions of people to believe it is truth, so you see it not only can be considered truth it already is an has been so for many centuries.
True there are many that do not consider it to be truth, BUT there ARE people who do regardless of what you say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

,

New York, I cannot explain how humanity could descend from two men. I agree that makes no sense.

But I can tell you that it's quite possible to understand evolution and still feel faith and value your relationship to God. Many people find ways to handle this problem. And I can tell you that whatever you learned in this class, life did not come about because of a "bang." That's cosmology, about the origin of the universe and not really related to the theory of biological evolution. Evolution is just a process that generates genetic change in response to the environment.

Although people who are not atheists often say that being an atheist is sad and empty and meaningless, I can tell you from personal experience that it has never felt that way to me. I am not advocating atheism, least of all here. But I want you to know that people who say atheism is horrible do not actually know because they are not atheists and can't know what it's like to be one.

Don't be afraid of knowledge and don't be afraid of God. The world is a wonderful place--and also scary at times. You will sort this out. You do not have to choose between knowledge and faith. It is totally normal to have doubts, as most Christians will tell you. You also do not need to figure this out all at once. My sympathies, though, for your obvious pain. I hope you feel better soon.

It bothers me that a biology course should have caused you pain and I wonder what your teacher said to make you feel this way.

If you check the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you will find it advocates a contextualist understanding of the Bible, Genesis in particular, rather than a literalist approach to "Adam and Eve." This is, in the Catholic term, "salvation history," not school history or biology.