Please provide your evidence for or against the doctrine of the Trinity.

I'll try to get the ball rolling on this one. While I do believe in the Trinity, I've always found it to be a particularly challenging doctrine to wrap my head around (please forgive the dangling preposition). Scripture doesn't always appear to me to be univocal on this score. There are, to be sure, places where the divinity of Christ is affirmed (the Prologue to the fourth Gospel, for example). And certainly Scripture is clear that there is only one God. So we have monotheism together with the divinity of Christ.

Alongside this, we also have a distinction made between Christ and the Father. So there is one God; Christ is divine; and Christ and the Father are distinct from one another. This leaves us a long way from the Trinity.

I'll throw in another complication (from my perspective, anyway): Early Christians who did believe in the Trinity understood this in manifold different ways. The earliest writers didn't think of the Trinity as many of us now do (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), but as Father, Word, Wisdom. Some, indeed many, thought of the persons of the Trinity not as co-equal but rather conceived of the second and third persons of the Trinity as subordinate to the Father (Arianism, for example). We when look at it, the doctrine of the Trinity which most of us learn today was defined relatively late, with Nicaea's confirmation of the teaching of Athanasius.

So, there, I suppose I provided evidence for AND against the Trinity! Or, rather, if not evidence then at least complications. I hope we'll all have a chance to wade through them here.

While this is a very good question, I don't know what kinds of answers you're going to get as far as "evidence." I believe in the Trinity because that's what I was taught and since religion is based on beliefs... well... when I hear "evidence" I think something tangible.

The first of the 10 commandments is...
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
In Hebrew this is called The Shema and it is like this... YHVH ELOHIM YHVH ECHAD.
The word echad means united one.
For example Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
The word used in Hebrew for one is echad,man and woman makes a united one.
And also... Numbers 13:23 And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with one cluster of grapes , again echad ,for a cluster is a union of grapes.
And again... evening and morning makes a day , a union which again is echad!
The word in Hebrew to say strictly one , only one is yachid , for example... Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, here the word is yachid.

Furthermore the word ELOCHIM is the plural of EL which means God so ELOCHIM means Gods, so to sum up the Shema goes like that more or less...
Hear O Israel,The Lord your Gods is a united one!
If there is no Trinity and God is only one person then why is the first of all commandments declaring that there is only one God?To me it is because the people of Israel saw God , but it is written that no one can see God and live , but there were people like Abraham and Jacob that saw God with their own eyes and lived , so who did they see?
They saw THE WORD before becoming flesh,because it is written that John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

To the same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made!

So the people of Israel got in touch with THE WORDand realized that THE WORD is GOD but they also saw THE SPIRIT upon some people and they also realized that THE SPIRIT is also GOD.
So it is the most natural thing for God to make it clear for the people of Israel in the first of all commandments that (if I may say) everything you see and realize that is a God , is not many Gods , but one united God!

The first of the 10 commandments is...
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
In Hebrew this is called The Shema and it is like this...YHVH ELOHIM YHVH ECHAD.
The word echad means united one.
For example Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
The word used in Hebrew for one is echad,man and woman makes a united one.
And also...Numbers 13:23 And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with one cluster of grapes , again echad ,for a cluster is a union of grapes.
And again...evening and morning makes a day , a union which again is echad!
The word in Hebrew to say strictly one , only one is yachid , for example ...Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, here the word is yachid.

Furthermore the word ELOCHIM is the plural of EL which means God so ELOCHIM means Gods, so to sum up the Shema goes like that more or less...
Hear O Israel,The Lord your Gods is a united one!
If there is no Trinity and God is only one person then why is the first of all commandments declaring that there is only one God?To me it is because the people of Israel saw God , but it is written that noone can see God and live , but there were people like Abraham and Jacob that saw God with their own eyes and lived , so who did they see?
They saw THE WORD before becoming flesh,because it is written that John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made!

So the people of Israel got in touch with THE WORDand realized that THE WORD is GOD but they also saw THE SPIRIT upon some people and they also realized that THE SPIRIT is also GOD.
So it is the most natural thing for God to make it clear for the people of Israel in the first of all commandments that (if I may say) everything you see and realize that is a God , is not many Gods , but one united God!

I'm making a copy of this one and keeping it in my personal file.

Wonderful!

The first of the 10 commandments is...
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
In Hebrew this is called The Shema and it is like this...YHVH ELOHIM YHVH ECHAD.
The word echad means united one.
For example Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
The word used in Hebrew for one is echad,man and woman makes a united one.
And also...Numbers 13:23 And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with one cluster of grapes , again echad ,for a cluster is a union of grapes.
And again...evening and morning makes a day , a union which again is echad!
The word in Hebrew to say strictly one , only one is yachid , for example ...Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, here the word is yachid.

Furthermore the word ELOCHIM is the plural of EL which means God so ELOCHIM means Gods, so to sum up the Shema goes like that more or less...
Hear O Israel,The Lord your Gods is a united one!
If there is no Trinity and God is only one person then why is the first of all commandments declaring that there is only one God?To me it is because the people of Israel saw God , but it is written that noone can see God and live , but there were people like Abraham and Jacob that saw God with their own eyes and lived , so who did they see?
They saw THE WORD before becoming flesh,because it is written that John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made!

So the people of Israel got in touch with THE WORDand realized that THE WORD is GOD but they also saw THE SPIRIT upon some people and they also realized that THE SPIRIT is also GOD.
So it is the most natural thing for God to make it clear for the people of Israel in the first of all commandments that (if I may say) everything you see and realize that is a God , is not many Gods , but one united God!


Are you proficient in Hebrew, or is there a source I can look up? I'd like to cite this in the future and need a reference?

JoeT

And while offending all Christians, does it really matter exactly how the trinity is or is not or even if it is.

Jesus Christ the Son of God, died for our sins

We are blessed by the Holy Spirit,

If they are or are not part of the Father also, does it change any aspect of our Salvation.

Chuck,
I always thought you were fairly level headed but that answer totally blew me away!
The trinity is immensely important in a Christian's life. Or at least it should be.

Chuck,
I always thought you were fairly level headed but that answer totally blew me away!
The trinity is immensely important in a Christian's life. Or at least it should be.

Ok, How?

God the Father,
Jesus the son came to relieve us from the Old testament laws and to place the laws on out hearts.
The Holy Spirit among other things is here to help and guide us. Since I do not have mu bible with me at this time. I cannot spout scriptures, but they are there.

God the Father,
Jesus the son came to relieve us from the Old testament laws and to place the laws on out hearts.

The Holy Spirit among other things is here to help and guide us. Since I do not have mu bible with me at this time. I cannot spout scriptures, but they are there.


Christ didn't come to “relieve” us of the Old testament. He came to fulfill it, to establish his Church, establish a new Covenant, and to atone for our sins. And the Holy Spirit was sent by Christ. But, I'm sure this is what you meant.

However, these are things we are taught. In the dawn of Christianity this wasn't clear. So, what I think Father was driving at was why one God with distinct personalities; so how would this affect our salvation without the Trinity?

JoeT

I'm inclined to agree with those who hold that the doctrine of the Trinity matters a great deal indeed for the economy of salvation. But there is another issue here which is itself quite pressing: monotheism. If the Father is divine and the Son is divine and the Holy Spirit is divine, it is incumbent upon Christians too explain how this can be--or what it even means--unless we are to accused of idolatry. There can be only one God. And though--and I think everybody will agree with this--than none of us can comprehend the Trinity fully, still we must be able to grapple with the question of the nature of the Divinity if we are to have any idea what we worship and to whom we pray.

I'm inclined to agree with those who hold that the doctrine of the Trinity matters a great deal indeed for the economy of salvation.

I think what Fr_Chuck means is that what matters most is love, faithfulness and obedience.

God didn't intend for all of us to be Theologians. If we were all Theologians, the work which He prepared from the foundation of the world would never be done.

As I understand it, but I am no linguistic, the word used in the Bible for work, is the same word for worship. Therefore, we believe that we glorify God in our work. Our work is worship and our worship is work.


But there is another issue here which is itself quite pressing: monotheism. If the Father is divine and the Son is divine and the Holy Spirit is divine, it is incumbent upon Christians too explain how this can be--or what it even means--unless we are to accused of idolatry. There can be only one God. And though--and I think everybody will agree with this--than none of us can comprehend the Trinity fully, still we must be able to grapple with the question of the nature of the Divinity if we are to have any idea what we worship and to whom we pray.

Here are some ways in which I've explained it in the past:

First, it is a mystery. But a mystery to which God has given us insight here on earth.

You and I share a human nature, do we not? Yet we are distinct persons. So what's the difference between us and the Holy Trinity.

Well, the difference is our limited nature. Human nature is such that we are limited. We are restricted to our space. You in yours and I in mine. But Divine Nature is such that it can't be limited. The attributes of Divine Nature is such that it is Eternal, Omnisicient and Omnipresent.

What does that mean? Well, that means that there can only be One God. God is eternal and therefore there is no "room" for any other God. If God were not eternal, then there could be many gods. But there is only one because the Divine Nature is eternal.

What about the persons? How can there be three Divine Persons? What is Person? A person is distinguished by an attribute that can't be shared. You and I share a human nature but we don't share a name, a personality, a body, a mind and many other characteristics. What is it that the Holy Trinity do not share. An identity, a role, a relationship.

The Father is in the Son, but the Father is not the Son.
The Son is in the Father but the Son is not the Father.
The Holy Spirit is in the Father and the Son, but the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

Three persons SHARE one Divine Nature.

BUT, you say, those three Persons aren't like you and I. They share everything but identity. Whereas, you and I share nothing but nature. True. But even in human beings, there are some "personalities" which share a body, a mind and a spirit.

-It is proven, psychologically, that there are people who suffer from multiple personality syndromes. These multiple personalities share the same nature.

You might say, yeah, but that is a disorder? True. When the personalities are in conflict, it is a disorder.

Although I am not aware of any examples where the personalities were not in conflict, it is possible that is because, when they aren't in conflict, there is no need for corrective intervention.

You might also say, but you and I share the human nature with many human beings. We are talking about a Trinity, not a multiplicity.

True. But the Trinity is revealed as such. If God had revealed a Quintity or even a Centurionity whatever, that is what we would have to accept. God has revealed He is a Trinity, nothing less and nothing more. Therefore we believe and accept although the Mystery is almost beyond the ability of the unaided mind to comprehend.

Then there is the mathematical response. Certainly, 1+1+1 is equal to three. That is only partially true however, because there are Three Divine Persons. But the three persons are also consubstantial. That is, they share the same nature. Since they share the same nature, then it is also correct to use this mathematical formula, 1x1x1 = one.

Finally, a look at nature will show how the entire world reflects the Holy Trinity. If we look at space we see that everything is three dimensional. Everything has width, heighth and depth. Yet everything is one. This is a reflection of the Holy Trinity.

If we consider time, we see that time has past, present and future. Yet where do we divide. When does the past become the present and the present become the past. Time is seamless. Time is one.

I hope that doesn't confound matters even worse.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Here's what I believe!
It is written'' In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'' My question is , does God have a beginning?No , He does not .But it says that the Word was God!
Let me ask something else.. Does God have a shape, an image? If I say that He does then I would be limitting Him and that's not wise because God has no limits of any kind.But God wanted to create a human being that would be in His image , so if He has no image then what would that human being look like?
God has to give Himself a shape , an image and that's how he gave birth to the Word.
It is written''All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.''Who is John talking about here?He's talkinhg about The Word!The Word made all things.
Does God give birth? It is written that both man and woman are made in His image so yes , God gives birth! And whatever God gives birth to, cannot be something less than God just like humans give birth to humans and dogs give birth to dogs.How was The Word born? It is written that for all those things that we cannot understand , nature is our example.
''21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
''22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
In a way that's how The Word was also born , or taken out of God , 'cause someone does not have to come out of a woman's legs to be born.My son was taken out of my wife's belly , but I assure you he is born!
So Man and Woman were ONE FLESH , and that's exactly what God and The Word are.They are ONE ! Man and Woman are one flesh and God and The Word are ONE GOD!
The Word is God's image and ''All things were made by him'' , He , The Word made us humans in His image , the image of His unseen Father , God!
''14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,'' The Word became the person that we call Jesus Christ.
''5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And BEING FOUND in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.''

That's how I see it!

JoeT777
You can find everything I wrote in the internet.Google echad for example..
I am Greek but even the Greek translation sometimes makes me wonder , so I had to search the Hebrew text to make things clear for myself. So I found out that there was an Israelite named Maimonides who translated the Torah and changed the word echad to yachid and the picture was very different .Also during the time that the Jews were exiled in Babylon there were translations from Hebrew to Aramaic which was the most common language at that time .Those translations are called The Targums.In those Targums many times the word Lord is translated to The Memra of The Lord, which means The Word of The Lord.For example Genesis 28:21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God.Instead of the Lord,the targums write The Memra(The Word).
You may have heard that the Jewish people never believed in The Trinity theory, but that is totally wrong.You may hear that the Trinity theory has its roots to paganism, but it is paganism that imitated the Trinity theory.
There is a great book called The Jewish Trinity,it helps!
As for if it is important for us to know if there is such thing as The Trinity or not , I believe it is , because otherwise we cannot have a clear view of WHO JESUS CHRIST IS!

. They share everything but identity.

I admire, and perhaps even envy, De Maria's clarity. I'd just like to offer a few words in an effort to highlight something that I, for one, find to be terribly difficult--though also terribly important.

Part of the difficulty, I think, results from the fact that they do share identity, they are homoousion, con-substantial. So if we are counting up all the substances that exist, we get one God. But then we wouldn't perceive the triune character of the Godhead. The distinctness of the Divine Persons, while not a distinctness of or among substances, is a real and eternal distinctness. For many, this is perplexing deeply perplexing.

Add to that that whatever God is he is necessarily; there is nothing about the Divine nature that is contingent. So necessarily, God is one and God is three. Some early Christians looked at this and said, okay, there is one God and he acts in three different modes, he reveals himself in different ways. This came to be called modalism, or economic Trinitarianism, because the distinctness of the Persons is understood insofar as it is revealed in the economy (oikonimia, order) of creation. But creation isn't eternal, whereas the distinctness of Persons is eternal. God does not change; we do. Economic Trinitarians like Hippolytus could help the rest of us to understand the oneness (or monarchy) of God, but left us stranded when it came to the eternal distinctness of Persons within the Godhead. But this is really important since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all believed to be divine. So, unless we are to abandon monotheism, we have to have some way to explain the eternal plurality of Persons, while at the same time safeguarding the eternal unity of God.

Akoue
Maybe this will help you..
We as humans cannot have a direct contact to God The Father , we cannot go directly to Him because it is written that we cannot see His face because we will die.So EVERYTHING has to happen through The Word and The Spirit.
The Word HAS a start,it is before creation.The Word preexists creation but The Father preexists The Word , just like every father preexist his son.

Akoue
Maybe this will help you..
We as humans cannot have a direct contact to God The Father , we cannot go directly to Him because it is written that we cannot see His face because we will die.So EVERYTHING has to happen through The Word and The Spirit.
The Word HAS a start,it is before creation.The Word preexists creation but The Father preexists The Word , just like every father preexist his son.

This helps. And I think it especially helps me to articulate what I find to be so difficult.

As the Trinity has come to be understood, the Father is the--I'm going to use the Greek because I know you're Greek--arche, the sole arche in the Godhead. So the Son and the Holy Spirit proceed *from* that one arche. But the relations of the Persons are outside of time: Before creation, from all eternity, the Father and Son and Holy Spirit have been distinct Persons. All three together, one God, pre-exist creation. Now, as De Maria's very helpful post brings out, these three Persons of the Godhead manifest themselves in and through creation in their distinctness. Only the Son, the eternal, un-begotten Word, became flesh, for instance. So the relation of Father to Son in the Godhead isn't like the relation of a father to his son: A father exists before his son. But the Father, although he is the arche of the Son, does not pre-exist the Son. There never was a time when God was not a Trinity.

Does this make sense? Tell me if it doesn't so I can try again.

I admire, and perhaps even envy, De Maria's clarity. I'd just like to offer a few words in an effort to highlight something that I, for one, find to be terribly difficult--though also terribly important.

Part of the difficulty, I think, results from the fact that they do share identity, they are homoousion, con-substantial. So if we are counting up all the substances that exist, we get one God. But then we wouldn't perceive the triune character of the Godhead. The distinctness of the Divine Persons, while not a distinctness of or among substances, is a real and eternal distinctness. For many, this is perplexing deeply perplexing.

Add to that that whatever God is he is necessarily; there is nothing about the Divine nature that is contingent. So necessarily, God is one and God is three. Some early Christians looked at this and said, okay, there is one God and he acts in three different modes, he reveals himself in different ways. This came to be called modalism, or economic Trinitarianism, because the distinctness of the Persons is understood insofar as it is revealed in the economy (oikonimia, order) of creation. But creation isn't eternal, whereas the distinctness of Persons is eternal. God does not change; we do. Economic Trinitarians like Hippolytus could help the rest of us to understand the oneness (or monarchy) of God, but left us stranded when it came to the eternal distinctness of Persons within the Godhead. But this is really important since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all believed to be divine. So, unless we are to abandon monotheism, we have to have some way to explain the eternal plurality of Persons, while at the same time safeguarding the eternal unity of God.


Why not Arius' homoiousios (similar substance) where Christ proceeds from God, and the Holy Sprit proceeds from Christ?

The only reason St. Thomas seems to give is that with homoiousious (similar substance) we don't have three distinct person's

Holy Trinity:


God the Father, Almighty maker of all seen and unseen.
The Son, the Word, consubstantial (homoousious - having the same substance) with the father
The Holy Spirit, “is the one who proceeds [goes forth] by way of love”

As I understand it the Arian creed doesn't allow for the Holy Spirit to move by way of love. Hence the error, (here's were I'm unsure) Not to mention the obvious error of denying the two natures of Christ.

JoeT

Joe,

The principal error of Arianism lay with the denial of co-equality among the Divine Persons. Arius, on the strength of numerous NT passages (the Son does the will of the Father, for example), argued that the Son is subordinate to the Father. Arianism, like Sabellianism, is a variety of subordinationism.

Arius held that the substance, or ousia, of the Godhead cannot be shared without destroying its unity (hence homoiousios instead of homoousios). If it could be shared then God is divisible and so subject to change. So the Son, according to Arius, is a creature, he is is begotten (cf. the Creed, where the Son is said to be unbegotten, aggenetos), and so is not co-eternal with the Father because the Son had a beginning.

Akoue
I was very much helped by the writings of Watchman Nee. To understand the eternity of God he used the expression eternity of the past, so that he could separate the eternity of The Father from the eternity of The Son.The Son is eternal because He is beyond human time but The Son says about The Father John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

De Maria,
What you have been given so far is very good.
To me Jesus gave us a name of the trinity God when He told his apostles and sisciples to go out into the world an baptize people in the NAME Of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
He did not say in the NAMES of.
For me to understand the trinity possibility all I need to do is realize that each of us in a trinity of body, mind, and spirit which work together for us to function but each has its own purpose identity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Akoue
I was very much helped by the writings of Watchman Nee. To understand the eternity of God he used the expression eternity of the past, so that he could seperate the eternity of The Father from the eternity of The Son.The Son is eternal because He is beyond human time but The Son says about The Father John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Interestingly, the pericope you offer was also taken by Marcellus of Ancyra to show that Christ's reign will not be eternal. The followers of Eusebius insisted on the insertion of "and his kingdom will have no end" into the Nicene Creed as a response to Marcellus's teaching. I wonder what you make of it.

Joe,

The principal error of Arianism lay with the denial of co-equality among the Divine Persons. Arius, on the strength of numerous NT passages (the Son does the will of the Father, for example), argued that the Son is subordinate to the Father. Arianism, like Sabellianism, is a variety of subordinationism.

Arius held that the substance, or ousia, of the Godhead cannot be shared without destroying its unity (hence homoiousios instead of homoousios). If it could be shared then God is divisible and so subject to change. So the Son, according to Arius, is a creature, he is is begotten (cf. the Creed, where the Son is said to be unbegotten, aggenetos), and so is not co-eternal with the Father because the Son had a beginning.

Maybe that's what I'm missing, an Arian creed - I've never seen one.

Which creed? The Arians tried to push 2 or 3 different creeds through various councils for some years after Nicaea.


JoeT

Akoue
This is exactly why we have to understand WHO Jesus Christ is!

Here's what i believe!
It is written'' In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'' My question is , does God have a beginning?No , He does not .But it says that the Word was God!
Let me ask something else.. Does God have a shape, an image? If I say that He does then I would be limitting Him and that's not wise because God has no limits of any kind.But God wanted to create a human being that would be in His image , so if He has no image then what would that human being look like?
God has to give Himself a shape , an image and that's how he gave birth to the Word.
It is written''All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.''Who is John talking about here?He's talkinhg about The Word!The Word made all things.
Does God give birth? It is written that both man and woman are made in His image so yes , God gives birth! And whatever God gives birth to, cannot be something less than God just like humans give birth to humans and dogs give birth to dogs.How was The Word born? It is written that for all those things that we cannot understand , nature is our example.
''21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
''22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
In a way that's how The Word was also born , or taken out of God , 'cause someone does not have to come out of a woman's legs to be born.My son was taken out of my wife's belly , but i assure you he is born!
So Man and Woman were ONE FLESH , and that's exactly what God and The Word are.They are ONE ! Man and Woman are one flesh and God and The Word are ONE GOD!
The Word is God's image and ''All things were made by him'' , He , The Word made us humans in His image , the image of His unseen Father , God!
''14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,'' The Word became the person that we call Jesus Christ.
''5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And BEING FOUND in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.''

That's how i see it!

JoeT777
You can find everything i wrote in the internet.Google echad for example ..
I am Greek but even the Greek translation sometimes makes me wonder , so I had to search the Hebrew text to make things clear for myself. So I found out that there was an Israelite named Maimonides who translated the Torah and changed the word echad to yachid and the picture was very different .Also during the time that the Jews were exiled in Babylon there were translations from Hebrew to Aramaic which was the most common language at that time .Those translations are called The Targums.In those Targums many times the word Lord is translated to The Memra of The Lord, which means The Word of The Lord.For example Genesis 28:21 So that I come again to my father’s house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God.Instead of the Lord,the targums write The Memra(The Word).
You may have heard that the Jewish people never believed in The Trinity theory, but that is totally wrong.You may hear that the Trinity theory has its roots to paganism, but it is paganism that immitated the Trinity theory.
There is a great book called The Jewish Trinity,it helps!
As for if it is important for us to know if there is such thing as The Trinity or not , I believe it is , because otherwise we cannot have a clear view of WHO JESUS CHRIST IS!

Thanks for the reference of the book. I'll look for it.

But I had already heard that some Jews had begun to suspect the Trinity. There is a hint of it in the Scriptures themselves and some of the Catholic mystics have mentioned it.

Anyway, your input on this subject is very helpful. Thanks.

De Maria,
What you have been given so far is very good.
To me Jesus gave us a name of the trinity God when He told his apostles and sisciples to go out into the world an baptize people in the NAME Of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
He did not say in the NAMES of.
For me to understand the trinity possibility all I need to do is realize that each of us in a trinity of body, mind, and spirit which work together for us to function but each has its own purpose identity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Oh yeah! I forgot to mention that one.

De Maria.
What you have so far is very good.
In my case I have several well known and used passages with point to the trinity.
But the one that carries a lot of weight with me is that Jesus gave us a name of the trinity God when He told is apostles and disciples to go out into the world and baptize people in the NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
He did NOT say NAMES of.
Also I keep in mind that each of us is a trinity. That help me understand it.
We each are a trinity of body, mind, and spirit in one being.
They all work together for us to function but each has its own identity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Akoue
Maybe this will help you..
We as humans cannot have a direct contact to God The Father , we cannot go directly to Him because it is written that we cannot see His face because we will die.So EVERYTHING has to happen through The Word and The Spirit.
The Word HAS a start,it is before creation.The Word preexists creation but The Father preexists The Word , just like every father preexist his son.

Amen! We are talking about an Eternal reality not about a temporal reality. As I understand it, I'm not sure that the Son and the Holy Spirit were not GENERATED in eternity. Otherwise, the relationships we speak of would be meaningless.

I believe that is what we mean when we say, the Son proceeds from the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Therefore, I believe it can be described as a BEGINNING IN ETERNITY as opposed to a beginning in time.

If that makes any sense?

This helps. And I think it especially helps me to articulate what I find to be so difficult.

As the Trinity has come to be understood, the Father is the--I'm going to use the Greek because I know you're Greek--arche, the sole arche in the Godhead. So the Son and the Holy Spirit proceed *from* that one arche. But the relations of the Persons are outside of time: Before creation, from all eternity, the Father and Son and Holy Spirit have been distinct Persons. All three together, one God, pre-exist creation. Now, as De Maria's very helpful post brings out, these three Persons of the Godhead manifest themselves in and through creation in their distinctness. Only the Son, the eternal, un-begotten Word, became flesh, for instance. So the relation of Father to Son in the Godhead isn't like the relation of a father to his son: A father exists before his son. But the Father, although he is the arche of the Son, does not pre-exist the Son. There never was a time when God was not a Trinity.

Does this make sense? Tell me if it doesn't so I can try again.

That agrees with my understanding. The mystery is that the Arche and the Son and Spirit exist outside of time AND at the same time TRANSCEND time, therefore there is no such thing as "before" which is a word which expresses a relationship in time.

What do I mean by TRANSCEND time? I mean that time does not affect any person of the Divine Trinity. Time affected Jesus when He became man. But only His human nature. But time does not affect His Divine Nature.

And, although it is correct to say that God exists outside of time, I believe it is more correct to say that God transcends time. Why? Because God is omnipresent. Therefore, he is present in and out of the time/space continuum.

The time/space continuum is contained in the Universe. But God is greater than all His Creation. And God is at the same time smaller than the smallest particle in His Creation because the Laws of Time and Space are His Creatures as well.

Great topic guys!

adam7gur,
If so then why did Jesus tell us to pray directly to the Father which starts with "Our Father which art in heaven."
Everything in that prayer is directed to God the Father even the plea for forgiveness of our sins.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

De Maria and Akoue,
Wow!!
Thanks much for your discussion on that.
It really gives me something to ponder.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred
Think about this.. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Son , as the Word that created everything is our everlasting Father , because The Word created us although The Word is not THE Father!

When Jesus tells us John 14:6 no man cometh unto the Father, but by me , He means what He says but at the same time He knows that He is The Word that became flesh and His name is Everlasting Father! So is it wrong to call Jesus , Father? I 'd say , no it is not although He is not THE Father!

Everyone!
Thank you all!This is koinonia, this is ekklesia, this is what makes the body move, in Spirit and in Truth!
Hallelujah!

Evidence for

Matthew 1:20, 21 "the Lord (the Father) ... the Holy Spirit ... Jesus"
Matthew 3:16, 17 "Jesus ... the Spirit of God ... a Voice from heaven (the Father)"
Matthew 12:18 "I ... My Spirit ... on Him"
Matthew 22:42, 43 "Christ ... the Spirit ... Lord (the Father)"
Mark 1:9-11 "Jesus ... the Spirit ... a Voice from heaven ... My beloved Son"
Mark 12:35, 36 "Christ ... the Holy Spirit ... the Lord (the Father)"
Luke 1:35 "the Holy Spirit ... the Highest ... the Son of God"
Luke 2:26, 27 "the Holy Spirit ... Christ ... Jesus"
Luke 3:21, 22 "Jesus ... the Holy Spirit ... a Voice from heaven ... My beloved Son"
Luke 10:21 "Jesus ... the Spirit ... Father"
Luke 12:9, 10 "God ... the Son ... the Holy Spirit"
John 3:5 "Jesus ... the Spirit ... God"
John 3:34, 35 "God ... the Spirit ... the Father ... the Son"
John 4:24, 25 "God ... a Spirit ... Messiah ... Christ"
John 14:16, 17, 26 "the Comforter ... the Father ... in My name"
John 15:26 "the Comforter ... the Father ... of Me"
John 20:21, 22 "Jesus ... Father ... the Holy Spirit"
Acts 2:32, 33 "Jesus ... God ... the Father ... the Holy Spirit"
Acts 2:38, 39 "Jesus Christ ... the Holy Spirit ... God"
Acts 4:30, 31 "Jesus ... the Holy Spirit ... God"
Acts 5:31, 32 "God ... a Prince and Savior ... the Holy Spirit"
Acts 7:55 "the Holy Spirit ... Jesus ... God"
Acts 8:14-16 "God ... the Holy Spirit ... Jesus"
Acts 10:38 "God ... Jesus ... the Holy Spirit"
Acts 10:46-48 "God ... the Holy Spirit ... the Lord"
Acts 11:16, 17 "the Lord ... the Holy Spirit ... God ... the Lord Jesus Christ"
Acts 20:21-23 "God ... Jesus ... the Holy Spirit"
Romans 1:1, 3, 4 "God ... His Son, Jesus Christ ... the Spirit"
Romans 5:5, 6 "God ... the Holy Spirit ... Christ"
Romans 8:2, 3 "the Spirit ... Jesus ... God ... His own Son"
Romans 8:8, 9 "God ... the Spirit ... the Spirit of Christ"
Romans 8:16, 17 "the Spirit ... God ... Christ"
Romans 14:17, 18 "the Holy Spirit ... Christ ... God"
Romans 15:12, 13 "Root of Jesse (Jesus) ... God ... Holy Spirit"
Romans 15:16 "Jesus ... God ... the Holy Spirit"
Romans 15:30 "The Lord Jesus Christ ... the Spirit ... God"
1 Corinthians 6:10, 11 "God ... the Lord Jesus ... the Spirit"
1 Corinthians 12:4-6 "Spirit ... Lord ... God"
1 Corinthians 7:39, 40 "the Lord Jesus ... the Spirit ... God"
1 Corinthians 8:2 "the Lord Jesus ... the Spirit ... God"
2 Corinthians 3:3, 4 "the Spirit ... Christ ... God"
2 Corinthians 13:14 "Jesus ... God ... the Holy Spirit"
2 Corinthians 5:5, 6 "God ... the Spirit ... the Lord (Jesus)"
Galatians 4:6, 7 "God ... the Spirit ... Son ... Father ... God ... Christ"
Ephesians 2:18 "through Him (Jesus) ... Spirit ... the Father"
Ephesians 2:21, 22 "the Lord ... God ... the Spirit"
Ephesians 3:14, 16 "the Father ... Jesus Christ ... His Spirit"
Ephesians 4:4-6 "Spirit ... Lord (Jesus) ... God and Father"
Ephesians 5:18-20 "Spirit ... Lord (Jesus) ... God ... Father"
Colossians 1:6-8 "God ... Christ ... Spirit"
1 Thessalonians 4:6-8 "Lord (Jesus) ... God ... Holy Spirit"
1 Thessalonians 5:18, 19 "God ... Father ... Christ ... Jesus ... Spirit"
2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14 "God ... Lord ... God ... Spirit ... Lord Jesus Christ"
Titus 3:4-6 "God ... Holy Spirit ... Jesus Christ"
Hebrews 2:3, 4 "Lord (Jesus) ... God ... Holy Spirit"
Hebrews 3:4, 6, 7 "God ... Christ ... Holy Spirit"
Hebrews 6:4-6 "Holy Spirit ... God ... Son"
Hebrews 9:14 "Christ ... Spirit ... God"
Hebrews 10:29-31 "Son of God ... Spirit ... Lord ... God"
1 Peter 1:2 "God the Father ... Spirit ... Jesus Christ"
1 Peter 3:18 "Christ ... God ... Spirit"
1 Peter 4:14 "Christ ... Spirit ... God"
2 Peter 1:21 "God ... Holy Spirit ... Lord (Jesus)"
2 Peter 2:1 "God ... Holy Spirit ... Lord (Jesus)"
1 John 4:2 "Spirit ... Jesus ... God"
1 John 4:13, 14 "Spirit ... Father ... Son ... Savior"
1 John 5:7 "Father ... Word ... Holy Spirit"
Jude 20, 21 "the Holy Spirit ... God ... Lord ... Jesus Christ"
Revelation 1:9, 10 "Jesus Christ ... God ... Jesus Christ ... Spirit"
Revelation 3:5-7 "Father ... Spirit ... He that hath the key of David (Jesus)"
Revelation 14:12, 13 "God ... Jesus ... Lord ... Spirit"
Revelation 21:9, 10 "Lamb ... Spirit ... God"
Revelation 22:16-18 "the offspring of David (Jesus) ... Spirit ... God"

Akoue
we have to understand WHO Jesus Christ is!

I couldn't agree more with you on that one.

Jesus Christ is the incarnate Word of God, the second Person of the Holy Trinity. For me, as I think about Christ, I find myself called to work for a better understanding of his Divine, as well as his human, nature. I hope the conversation will continue: Striving with others better to understand the Divinity we praise is a wonderful way to pass the time.

I couldn't agree more with you on that one.

Jesus Christ is the incarnate Word of God, the second Person of the Holy Trinity. For me, as I think about Christ, I find myself called to work for a better understanding of his Divine, as well as his human, nature. I hope the conversation will continue: Striving with others better to understand the Divinity we praise is a wonderful way to pass the time.

Psalm 133:1
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Akoue,
Yes discussing who Jesus was/is IS s great way to use a person's time it great benefit
Jesus often spoke as a human and as God the Son, He often acted both ways depending on the situation.
Reading about that has caused many people to be confused and coming to various conclusions including statements such as Jesus acted or spoke in contradiction of himself..
Jesus felt physical pain as a human and spiritual pain a spiritual being.
Did the other members of the trinity so?
I think not at least directly in regard to the physical.
But I'm NOT sure about that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Akoue,
Yes discussing who Jesus was/is IS s great way to use a person's time it great benefit
Jesus often spoke as a human and as God the Son, He often acted both ways depending on the situation.
Reading about that has caused many people to be confused and coming to various conclusions including statements such as Jesus acted or spoke in contradiction of himself..
Jesus felt physical pain as a human and spiritual pain a spiritual being.
Did the other members of the trinity so?
I think not at least directly in regard to the physical.
But I'm NOT sure about that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Hi Fred,

It's a good question. Only the Son suffered. There was a view, called patripassianism, that held that the Father suffered, but that was anathematized.

Akoue .
Thanks for your answer.
I did not know of that.
Fred

evidence for

Matthew 1:20, 21 "the Lord (the Father) ... the Holy Spirit ... Jesus"
Matthew 3:16, 17 "Jesus ... the Spirit of God ... a Voice from heaven (the Father)"

Ditto...

(list shortened for clearity




Sheik,

A list of Scripture is all you think the Holy Trinity is? Shouldn't you like to explain some of these (please not all of them!)? And what of the Old Testament Scripture?

JoeT

Fred,

Happy I could help.

JoeT777 ,
Yes, I would like to see that.
Fred

Fred
I was thinking about the '' Our Father '' question of yours and here's an example.
Let's say I want to have a cup of coffee.It is impossible to have one without water, but we never say ''I want a cup of coffee with water'' because we understand that there is no other way to have one except through water.So to me it is more like understanding that we go to the Father through the Son than just saying it in our prayer,understanding that it is a one way road and it can't be otherwise.

And something else to think about...
Why does Jesus say John 14:6 no man cometh unto the Father, but by me?
When I say come there is a meaning of '' to me '' , instead of the word go in which there is a meaning of '' somewhere where I am not ''.
What do you say?

Adam,
I see where you are coming from and it is something to ponder.
When I pray to God I either say Lord or God knowing I am speaking to the trinity.
However, when I pray the Lord's prayer I have realized that I was talking to the Father first then the rest of the prayer to the trinity for the part that says "thy kingdom come" addresses the address of the trinity in all of creation to myway of thinking.
Thanks much for your thots on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.