The Bible says our righteousness is like dirty rags.

I don't know what you're talking about.

I don't know what Scripture you're reading. But the KJV says:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

You are great at taking these out of context. What does He say that we must obey?

Heb 3:18-19
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter because of unbelief.
NKJV

Belief not works. If you seek works as a means to fill the gap of what you perceive to be Jesus' insufficiency to save, then you are looking in all the wrong places.

Um, that was debunked ages ago. I remember. I was there.

Funny, I only remember you given your opinion, taking it out of context.

And I was there.

Then you have not been obedient and you cannot be saved by obedience.

You really want to judge everyone's souls don't you? But Jesus already thought of every contingency for us.

We obediently frequent the Sacrament of Confession which Jesus afforded us.

John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That is another one of those works which you hate so much.

We obediently frequent the Sacrament of Confession which Jesus afforded us.

John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We must confess our sins to God. But that means that we have sins and have been disobedient in other areas. Under your works gospel, you'd be going to hell.

You really want to judge everyone's souls don't you? But Jesus already thought of every contingency for us.

Ironic - you just judged me.

Funny, I only remember you given your opinion, taking it out of context.

And I was there.

Well, a native Greek speaker endorsed it.

The Bible says our righteousness is like dirty rags.

Amen.

I notice that every false gospel points to the worthiness and merit of man and his works.

The true gospel points only to the cross of Christ.

1 Cor 2:2
2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
NKJV

Well, a native Greek speaker endorsed it.

We weren't discussing the Greek there so whether that is true or not is irrelevant.

De Maria
Yes, he has been doing that for years on several boards.
So it in nothing new for him on many other fundamentalists.
Fred

De Maria
Yes, he has been doing that for years on several boards.
So it in nothing new for him on many other fundamentalists.
Fred

Fred, Yes, I have been defending scripture on many boards for many years. And I do defend the fundamentals of the Christian faith.

Thanks you for noticing.

We weren't discussing the Greek there so whether that is true or not is irrelevant.

Fine, then explain what I got wrong. I gave you my reasons for rejecting your interpretation. Now give me your reasons for rejecting my interpretation. What mistake did I make in reading Eph.2.8-9?

The Bible says our righteousness is like dirty rags.

Isaiah 64:6 6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

That is why our works alone and even our faith is not enough to merit salvation.

But God crowns His own works:

Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

De Maria,
Funny, Funny. Funny.
You asked question "You really want to judge everyone's souls don't you?"
And Tj3 says that you just judged him
Since when is a question judgment?
Fred

That is how you characterize it. Its the strawman you build so that you can knock it down. But it isn't what we believe. We believe in faith and works:

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Sincerely,

De Maria

My gospel depends solely on the faithfulness of God, not on the works of men.

You are great at taking these out of context. What does He say that we must obey?

Heb 3:18-19
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
NKJV

Belief not works. If you seek works as a means to fill the gap of what you perceive to be Jesus' insufficiency to save, then you are looking in all the wrong places.

They could not enter because of unbelief.

"Entering" being the work that they would have accomplished had they believed.

De Maria,
Your answer to NoHwlp4U was superb.
Fred

Ironic - you just judged me.

Your desire to judge other people's souls is hardly a judgement. You have made it obvious.

Fine, then explain what I got wrong. I gave you my reasons for rejecting your interpretation. Now give me your reasons for rejecting my interpretation. What mistake did I make in reading Eph.2.8-9?

Tell me, after how many times will you finally acknowledge it? If you won't listen after "X" times, why should I think that you will listen after "X + 1" times?

Isaiah 64:6 6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

That is why our works alone and even our faith is not enough to merit salvation.

But God crowns His own works:

Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Exactly thank you for expounding on what I am saying.

Your desire to judge other people's souls is hardly a judgement. You have made it obvious.

I think that when a person accuses one of judging, and judges that person in so doing, that is called hypocrisy.

Now, I can understand that you feel convicted when I quote scripture - God's word as a way of doing that, but take that up with God.

My gospel

We follow Jesus and the Apostles.


depends solely on the faithfulness of God, not on the works of men.

God said that our faithfulness was made manifest by our works.

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Isaiah 64:6 6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

That is why our works alone and even our faith is not enough to merit salvation.

But God crowns His own works:

Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Exactly. We have no righteousness, and when we who are saved do good works, we receive crowns as rewards that we later toss at the feet of Him who rightly desires the honour for even our good works.

Tell me, after how many times will you finally acknowledge it? If you won't listen after "X" times, why should I think that you will listen after "X + 1" times?

Kindly point me to the post where you explained in a detailed way my error regarding Eph.2.8-9. I've re-read the thread and seem to have missed it. You know, the one where you explain to me that you didn't overlook the semicolon between the clauses, didn't get the reference of "it" in v.8 wrong, etc. Yeah, I'll stop asking if you can point me to that post.

I think that when a person accuses one of judging, and judges that person in so doing, that is called hypocrisy.

Now, I can understand that you feel convicted when I quote scripture - God's word as a way of doing that, but take that up with God.

Again,

1 Corinthians 4: 3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

I will await the Just Judge.

4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

My gospel
We follow Jesus and the Apostles.

So you are now into falsifying what I said to defend your position?

Is dishonesty and fraud one of the good works of following your god?

Yes, you will be judged by your works!

when I quote scripture

To quote is one thing. The Pharisees did that. To understand it is something different.

Kindly point me to the post where you explained in a detailed way my error regarding Eph.2.8-9. I've re-read the thread and seem to have missed it. You know, the one where you explain to me that you didn't overlook the semicolon between the clauses, didn't get the reference of "it" in v.8 wrong, etc. Yeah, I'll stop asking if you can point me to that post.

You did not stop when I responded before. My children used to use this tactic when they did not get their way when they were very young. They grew up.

Yes, you will be judged by your works!!

Is that a concession?

To quote is one thing. The Pharisees did that. To understand it is something different.

Exactly. Some people do study it to understand, others just claim that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

I have spent a large part of my life studying scripture and submitting my beliefs to it.

You did not stop when I responded before. My children used to use this tactic when they did not get their way when they were very young. They grew up.

It would be very easy to put this to rest for all to see. Please indicate the # of the post.

Is that a concession?

Not at all - scripture does say that we will be judged by our works.

For those who depend upon anything by the work of the cross for their salvation, they will be judged by their works. One sin and they have condemned themselves because they placed their hope in works.

Those who put their faith solely in the cross of Christ will be judge by their works to determine what crowns they will receive, crowns that we will later throw at the feet of Him who alone merits credit even for our good works.

Exactly. Some people do study it to understand, others just claim that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

I have spent a large part of my life studying scripture and submitting my beliefs to it.

Studying is one thing. The Pharisees did that. Understanding is something different.

Exactly. We have no righteousness, and when we who are saved do good works, we receive crowns as rewards that we later toss at the feet of Him who rightly desires the honour for even our good works.

Again, that is your gospel and you are becoming very eloquent in preaching your personal gospel.

But Jesus Gospel says that we must do good works or we will be condemned:


Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That means that only those that do the will of the Father will enter heaven.


Matt 25 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Come you who are blessed and inherit...


35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

For, means because.

So, why did they inherit the Kingdom. Because when He was hungry they gave Him meat etc.


36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

etc.


37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? Or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? Or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?


And they asked, "Lord when did we do those things for you?


40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,.

Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

And the Lord said, when you did it to your brethren.

So the message is clear. Salvation is contingent upon your doing good works for your neighbor. And if you keep reading you will see that not doing these good works will cause you to wind up condemned.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Akoue,
He did not do that no matter what he claims to have done because he either cannot or refuses to do so.
The evidence is here on this thread that Tj3 has not done so but make the false claim that he has.
Typical of his posting style.
Fred

It would be very easy to put this to rest for all to see. Please indicate the # of the post.

After several hundred posts, if you cared so little after the number of times that I tried to discuss it and you cared so little about a real discussion, why it is somehow my responsibility to search those hundreds of posts? Especially when you attitude has not improved and I still see no desire for a real discussion.

Studying is one thing. The Pharisees did that. Understanding is something different.

I'm glad that you realize that. Understanding does not come from those who are so arrogant to thing that they are right and anyone who disagrees is a "goofus". That was how the Pharisees viewed their position.

After several hundred posts, if you cared so little after the number of times that I tried to discuss it and you cared so little about a real discussion, why it is somehow my responsibility to search those hundreds of posts? Especially when you attitude has not improved and I still see no desire for a real discussion.

And the post is at?

Not at all - scripture does say that we will be judged by our works.

For those who depend upon anything by the work of the cross for their salvation, they will be judged by their works. One sin and they have condemned themselves because they placed their hope in works.

Since that isn't Catholic doctrine, we don't need to worry.


Those who put their faith solely in the cross of Christ will be judge by their works to determine what crowns they will receive, crowns that we will later throw at the feet of Him who alone merits credit even for our good works.

That's Catholic doctrine.

Now, how about those who profess to be faithful but don't do the works which God prepared from the beginning?

Again, that is your gospel and you are becoming very eloquent in preaching your personal gospel.

The gospel of Jesus Christ, not mine.


But Jesus Gospel says that we must do good works or we will be condemned

John 3:14-18
14 And as Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV

Since that isn't Catholic doctrine, we don't need to worry.

Thats Catholic doctrine.

Okay. I trust in the cross. You trust in your denomination. Let me know how that works out for you.

Akoue,
He did not do that no matter what he claims to have done because he either cannot or refuses to do so.
The evidence is here on this thread that Tj3 has not done so but make the false claim that he has.
Typical of his posting style.
Fred

I know. We've all been waiting, and reminding him, since #13.

De Maria,
That is another superb post by you.
Good works ARE necessary so the bible says in MANY ways and passages.
Fred

I'm glad that you realize that. Understanding does not come from those who are so arrogant to thing that they are right and anyone who disagrees is a "goofus". that was how the Pharisees viewed their position.

Really? It's the word "goofus" that got under your skin?

The gospel of Jesus Christ, not mine.


John 3:14-18
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV

Right, no salvation without faith. Who denied that we can be saved without faith? Certainly nobody on this thread.

Right, no salvation without faith. Who denied that we can be saved without faith? Certainly nobody on this thread.

Good. But then there are those who do not trust in Jesus alone, but place their faith in part or in whole on their own works.

Really? It's the word "goofus" that got under your skin?

Nope. It is the self-righteous attitude that I find offensive.

Nope. It is the self-righteous attitude that I find offensive.

Okay, no more "goofus", then. And where's that post?

The gospel of Jesus Christ, not mine.


John 3:14-18
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV

But that is just one verse. Believing we must obey.

Romans 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Therefore, if we believe we must be baptized in obedience to Christ's command:

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If we believe we must obey Christ's commands:
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

If we believe, we must patiently continue in good work:
Romans 2: 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Those who believe are accompanied by works:
Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Only the demons believe without acting upon that belief:

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

We work because we believe:
Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

We obey because we believe:
Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Therefore, you are teaching a false gospel because you don't understand what it means to believe.

Sincerely,

Nope. It is the self-righteous attitude that I find offensive.

I'm not the one telling everyone that he's saved.

Okay, no more "goofus", then. And where's that post?

So you drop one symptom of the attitude, and somehow that obligates me to search 540 posts for you to find that which you could not care less about yesterday?

I'm not the one telling everyone that he's saved.

I'm sorry to hear that. I am saved and would be more than willing to share with you how that happens.

But that is just one verse. Believing we must obey.

It is more than one verse. You need to read what Galatians 3 says about the purpose of the law.

Gal 3:19-25
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

If you are still under the law, then you have not found yet the purpose of the law.

Okay. I trust in the cross. You trust in your denomination. Let me know how that works out for you.

You evaded the question. I'll post it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
Not at all - scripture does say that we will be judged by our works.

For those who depend upon anything by the work of the cross for their salvation, they will be judged by their works. One sin and they have condemned themselves because they placed their hope in works.
Since that isn't Catholic doctrine, we don't need to worry.


Quote:
Those who put their faith solely in the cross of Christ will be judge by their works to determine what crowns they will receive, crowns that we will later throw at the feet of Him who alone merits credit even for our good works.
That's Catholic doctrine.

Now, how about those who profess to be faithful but don't do the works which God prepared from the beginning?
__________________

So you drop one symptom of the attitude, and somehow that obligates me to search 540 posts for you to find that which you could not care less about yesterday?

I'm not asking you to like me. I'm asking you for the number of the post. If you'd rather not provide that, then just explain to me how I got Eph.2.8-9 wrong. What was my mistake?

It is more than one verse. You need to read what Galatians 3 says about the purpose of the law.

Gal 3:19-25
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

If you are still under the law, then you have not found yet the purpose of the law.

I've already read it. And its besides the point. Abraham proved his justice because he was obedient before the Law of Moses was even on the radar:

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Akoue,
Point well made.
It's sad that it will be ignored.
The proof that works are necessary along with faith for salvation is in the bible many times in many passages, but so-called literal bible believers do NOT believe it.
My question is why?
Why do they not believe that works ARE necessary when the bible says that they are.
The only answer I have come up with to that question is that it has taught by the Catholic Church from year one and it is one of the Catholic teachings that is fashionable for fundamentalists to reject.
Fred

I'm sorry to hear that. I am saved and would be more than willing to share with you how that happens.

How, when you can't even explain to me my error regarding Eph.2.8-9. (Notice I'm not asking you to explain my errors regarding Tituas 3.5. Jn. 3.5. James 2.4-5, etc. I'll set those undischarged promissory notes of yours to one side until you answer the question I've been asking since #13--and which I asked you also on the other thread a couple of weeks ago. You didn't answer it there either.)

I'm sorry to hear that. I am saved and would be more than willing to share with you how that happens.

We don't want your prescription. God is our Judge.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The only answer I have come up with to that question is that it has taught by the Catholic Church from year one and it is one of the Catholic teachings that is fashionable for fundamentalists to reject.
Fred

You may be on to something there, Fred.

You evaded the question. I'll post it again.

Nope. I did not evade it. This is not the first time that it was asked. You're getting to be like Akoue, asking the same question over and over after it has been asked.


For those who depend upon anything by the work of the cross for their salvation, they will be judged by their works. One sin and they have condemned themselves because they placed their hope in works.
Since that isn't Catholic doctrine, we don't need to worry.

No, it's Christian doctrine.


Now, how about those who profess to be faithful but don't do the works which God prepared from the beginning?

One more time - this time, please read. Professing to be faithful does not save anyone. Receiving Jesus as Saviour is what saves.

Further, your question is in and of itself contradictory because one cannot be faithful and not do good works.

We don't want your prescription. God is our Judge.

Not mine, God's.

my responsibility to search those hundreds of posts? .

I've provided post #'s to you on a number of occasions when you've requested them. Please return the courtesy.

Nope. I did not evade it. This is not the first time that it was asked. You're getting to be like Akoue, asking the same question over and over after it has been asked.



Yes, up until such time as it is answered.

Not mine, God's.

And you are, perhaps, the pharmacist?

How, when you can't even explain to me my error regarding Eph.2.8-9. (Notice I'm not asking you to explain my errors regarding Tituas 3.5., Jn. 3.5., James 2.4-5, etc. I'll set those undischarged promissory notes of yours to one side until you answer the question I've been asking since #13--and which I asked you also on the other thread a couple of weeks ago. You didn't answer it there either.)

Just like my children. I guess that you figure that if you can be an annoyance that you win the argument. Doesn't work because I do not consider myself in an argument. I seek truth from God's word, and submit myself to His word. You may be arguing, and you may think that repeating the same question after it has been asked is a neat trick, but it does not matter - it just reminds me of tactics used by young children.

And you are, perhaps, the pharmacist?

I am a student of the word of God, and a servant of God saved through the cross of Christ.

Just like my children. I guess that you figure that if you can be an annoyance that you win the argument. Doesn't work because I do not consider myself in an argument. I seek truth from God's word, and submit myself to His word. You may be arguing, and you may think that repeating the same question after it has been asked is a neat trick, but it does not matter - it just reminds me of tactics used by young children.

I'm sorry, I must have missed it. Where is the explanation?

I've provided post #'s to you on a number of occasions when you've requested them. Please return the courtesy.

Only one that was requested or required. Only one that was legitimately missed. I do not keep asking for new ones on an on-going basis.

I am a student of the word of God, and a servant of God saved through the cross of Christ.

Not every student passes the class.

I'm sorry, I must have missed it. Where is the explanation?

Not convincing. Maybe if it was posted once or twice, maybe that was missing it, but not after all the discussion regarding it that we had. Especially not since you responded.

I'm not buying your games.

Not every student passes the class.

True.

Are you saved?

Only one that was requested or required. Only one that was legitimately missed. I do not keep asking for new ones on an on-going basis.

But you do keep quoting Eph.2.8-9 without acknowleding that your reading of it has been challenged. Either explain my error or concede your mistake and stop appealing to Eph.

But you do keep quoting Eph.2.8-9 without acknowleding that your reading of it has been challenged. Either explain my error or concede your mistake and stop appealing to Eph.

Your unwillingness to read does not obligate me to stop using scripture no matter how much you may dislike that passage.

Not convincing. maybe if it was posted once or twice, maybe that was missing it, but not after all the discussion regarding it that we had. Especially not since you responded.

I'm not buying your games.

Then it should be easy to find. I've already confessed to you that I cannot. Please direct me to it or provide it anew.

True.

Are you saved?

That is reserved to God's judgment. I don't usurp God's authority.

Notice I am answering all your questions. Please answer mine: What is the # of the post. You say there are many, kindly point me to the one that you think would be most useful in exposing my error regarding Eph.2.8-9.

Your unwillingness to read does not obligate me to stop using scripture no matter how much you may dislike that passage.

I must be willing to read. I am reading and responding to your posts. In my response I just now made reference to something you said in your post, so I must have read it.

I like the passage fine. It provides ample evidence of your error. Why are you fleeing it? Please, the post #.

That is reserved to God's judgment. I don't usurp God's authority.

The Biblical gospel comes in much assurance:

Heb 10:19-23
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
NKJV

I know that I am saved as did the Apostle Paul. You too can have that assurance.

I must be willing to read. I am reading and responding to your posts. In my response I just now made reference to something you said in your post, so I must have read it.

You read and responded, and now you resort to harassment until I do your bidding.

Is that one of your god's good works?

We discussed that, and obviously we did not agree, so why not ,move on with the discussion? If you don't like that passage, that is your issue. Are you going to resort to harassment every time that I dare post a verse which offends your belief system? Is that mature?

De Maria,
Yes I do not want Tj3's prescription either.
God is also my judge.
Whether Tj believes it or not God is his judge also though he has judged himself to be saved already.
Fred

The Biblical gospel comes in much assurance:

Heb 10:19-23
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
NKJV

I know that I am saved as did the Apostle Paul. You too can have that assurance.

Fine, then you should be able to explain how I've misunderstood the passages to which I've appealed. Perhaps you could start with Eph.2.8-9. It's a simple request. I'm not asking you to build a bridge or define pi.

Fine, then you should be able to explain how I've misunderstood the passages to which I've appealed. Perhaps you could start with Eph.2.8-9. It's a simple request. I'm not asking you to build a bridge or define pi.

Why don't you just carry on with the discussion and see where it leads? That was part of the discussion, we discussed, you asked many things, and I answered them all hundreds of posts ago. Move on. Or go search yourself. Or have you just decided to carryon with this silliness until the thread dies?

Akoue,
You keep asking nicely and keep getting ignored.
I wonder why.
Fred

Nope. I did not evade it.

Good, you've just confirmed Catholic doctrine:

Lets review:


Quote:
Those who put their faith solely in the cross of Christ will be judge by their works to determine what crowns they will receive, crowns that we will later throw at the feet of Him who alone merits credit even for our good works.

That's Catholic doctrine.

Now, how about those who profess to be faithful but don't do the works which God prepared from the beginning?



This is not the first time that it was asked. You're getting to be like Akoue, asking the same question over and over after it has been asked.


No, it's Christian doctrine.


One more time - this time, please read. Professing to be faithful does not save anyone. Receiving Jesus as Saviour is what saves.

Further, your question is in and of itself contradictory because one cannot be faithful and not do good works.

I rest my case. You have confirmed Catholic doctrine that faith must be accompanied by works or it will not merit salvation.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Why don't you just carry on with the discussion and see where it leads? That was part of the discussion, we discussed, you asked many things, and I answered them all hundreds of posts ago. Move on. Or go search yourself. Or have you just decided to carryon with this silliness until the thread dies?

It's silly of me to want to understand Scripture correctly? If I am in error regarding Eph.2.8-9 then that is a serious thing. Please, set me straight so that I can be unburdened of my erroneous private interpretation.

Good, you've just confirmed Catholic doctrine:

I know Catholic doctrine very well. I dsiagree with is. I believe in and follow Christian doctrine.


I rest my case. You have confirmed Catholic doctrine that faith must be accompanied by works or it will not merit salvation.

I said nothing of the sort. I stated that a person who simply claims to be faithful, but has not received Jesus as Saviour is not saved.

Fine, then you should be able to explain how I've misunderstood the passages to which I've appealed. Perhaps you could start with Eph.2.8-9. It's a simple request. I'm not asking you to build a bridge or define pi.

I can define Pi! I can do the birdge thing too!

Okay. I trust in the cross. You trust in your denomination. Let me know how that works out for you.

But, you’ve taken Him down off His Cross, walked over the “fulness of Him who is filled all in all”! What works for me is “all things under his feet and hath made him head over all the church.” Not an empty cross.


JoeT

But, you’ve taken Him down off His Cross, walked over the “fulness of Him who is filled all in all”!

He is down off the cross, not still up on a crucifix. He is the resurrected Saviour.

I can define Pi!!

Ssh! No cheating. And remember, if you allow another student to copy off your work, you're going to the principal's office too.

So you can define pi. To how many places, smart guy?

I know Catholic doctrine very well.

Then why do you misrepresent it? If you know Catholic doctrine, then you know we believe in faith and works. But you claim we believe only in works? So, what's the deal?


I dsiagree with is. I believe in and follow Christian doctrine.

You actually follow TJ doctrine.


I said nothing of the sort. I stated that a person who simply claims to be faithful, but has not received Jesus as Saviour is not saved.

I'll quote exactly:

I asked:


Now, how about those who profess to be faithful but don't do the works which God prepared from the beginning?

You answered:

No, it's Christian doctrine.

I rest my case.

then why do you misrepresent it? If you know catholic doctrine, then you know we believe in faith and works. But you claim we believe only in works? So, whats the deal?



You actually follow tj doctrine.



I'll quote exactly:

I asked:



You answered:


I rest my case.

Qed.

Then why do you misrepresent it? If you know Catholic doctrine, then you know we believe in faith and works. But you claim we believe only in works? So, what's the deal?

I never said that you believe only in works. If you claim that to be true, show me the quote. But having rejected the sufficiency of Christ, and substituting even part of the merits of salvation with the works of men is an issue no matter hwat percentage it may be.


You actually follow TJ doctrine.

And Paul followed Pauline doctrine. If you associate my beliefs so closely with scripture, I guess that is a compliment.


I'll quote exactly:

Is dishonesty a good work of your god? I said and I quote (indeed you even quoted me earlier):

"One more time - this time, please read. Professing to be faithful does not save anyone. Receiving Jesus as Saviour is what saves.
Further, your question is in and of itself contradictory because one cannot be faithful and not do good works. "

If you must lie about what I said to defend your faith, is it worth defending?

Intersting,
Tj3 claims he goes with Christian doctrine.
Catholic doctrine is the original Christian doctrine ans still is the FULL Christian doctrine.
So why isn't Tj3 a Catholic according to his word?
Fred

And Paul followed Pauline doctrine.

So "Pauline Doctrine" and "Christian Doctrine" are distinct? Why wasn't Paul following Christ's doctrine?

Intersting,
Tj3 claims he goes with Christian doctrine.

Christian doctrine came well before Catholic doctrine, because the Catholic church did not exist until 325AD

So "Pauline Doctrine" and "Christian Doctrine" are distinct? Why wasn't Paul following Christ's doctrine?

No they are not distinct, but it seems that De Maria thinks so.

Akoue,
Good question,
I eagerly await the answer.
Fred

Christian doctrine came well before Catholic doctrine, because the Catholic church did not exist until 325AD

You're the one who said he didn't want to talk about the history of doctrine, but only about the Bible. Do you take Paul to follow a doctrine other than that of Christ?

No they are not distinct, but it seems that De Maria thinks so.

Then why did you just claim that Paul adhered to "Pauline doctrine"? Is that a denomination?

Then when did you just claim that Paul adhered to "Pauline doctrine"? Is that a denomination?

Sigh - since De Maria claim that Christianity is TJ doctrine that I adhered to, then by analogy, Paul must have adhered to pauline doctrine when he adhere to Christianity.

Not to hard for you to follow is it?

You're the one who said he didn't want to talk about the history of doctrine, but only about the Bible. Do you take Paul to follow a doctrine other than that of Christ?

It would really be beneficial for you to actually read the messages. This has been an on-going problem in having an intelligent discussion with you. You claim to be a scholar, but I have never met a scholar with such poor reading habits. That, once again, leads me to question your claim.

Sigh - since De Maria claim that Christianity is TJ doctrine that I adhered to, then by analogy, Paul must have adhered to pauline doctrine when he adhere to Christianity.

Not to hard for you to follow is it?

You should get that breathing problem checked out. You sigh an awful lot. Could be serious.

What you said is:

"And Paul followed Pauline doctrine."

Any luck coming up with an explanation of Eph.2.8-9?

You should get that breathing problem checked out. You sigh an awful lot. Could be serious.

What you said is:

"And Paul followed Pauline doctrine."
I did - now read the whole post and the context. That should not be too hard for a person who claims to be a scholar.

It appears that you don't care at all about a real discussion, which is why we gfin you continually saying...


Any luck coming up with an explanation of Eph.2.8-9?

Well after the question was answered several times.

I did - now read the whole post and the context. That should not be too hard for a person who claims to be a scholar.

It appears that you don't care at all about a real discussion, which is why we gfin you continually saying...



Well after the question was answered several times.


And it was answered where? If there were several it shouldn't be hard to point me to one.

Take your time with that Tj. I'm going to bed now and look forward to finding an explanation of my error regarding Eph.2.8-9 in the morning. Don't stay up too late with that, okay?

And it was answered where? If there were several it shouldn't be hard to point me to one.

If you wonder why I won't dance when you call the tune, it it not just because of your past attitude and lack of caring about a real discussion, but look at your behaviour in how silly you took things out of context with respect to "Pauline doctrine".

That tells me that your attitude has not improved since yesterday.

Tell me then why I should do your work in searching for posts out of 600 when you already saw my answers when your attitude shows such little regard for serious discussion. If you really have made a dramatic change in attitude, demonstrate it in your attitude and behaviour. That will go much further than childish repetition that sound like "are we there yet..."

I never said that you believe only in works. If you claim that to be true, show me the quote.


Message #474


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3 View Post
Then why are you spending so much time arguing in favour of a works gospel?
That is how you characterize it. It's the strawman you build so that you can knock it down. But it isn't what we believe. We believe in faith and works:

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Sincerely,

De Maria



But having rejected the sufficiency of Christ,

Another mischaracterization. We accept the Sacrifice of the Cross wholeheartedly. But we understand that Jesus did not thereby save every living soul. He saved those who accept His sacrifice and demonstrate this acceptance by obedience in Him.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



and substituting even part of the merits of salvation with the works of men is an issue no matter hwat percentage it may be.

And that's another mischaracterization. We don't substitute Christ's merits with men's works. WE UNITE our lives to His Sacrifice in obedience to Scripture:

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1 Peter 2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:


And Paul followed Pauline doctrine. If you associate my beliefs so closely with scripture, I guess that is a compliment.

On the contrary. Your beliefs are peculiarly your own. They have nothing to do with Christ or with Paul.


Is dishonesty a good work of your god? I said and I quote (indeed you even quoted me earlier):

"One more time - this time, please read. Professing to be faithful does not save anyone. Receiving Jesus as Saviour is what saves.
Further, your question is in and of itself contradictory because one cannot be faithful and not do good works. "

If you must lie about what I said to defend your faith, is it worth defending?

You left out the direct answer to the question. What about those who profess faithfulness but don't work? You said, "No, it is Christian doctrine."

Sincerely,

Another mischaracterization.

It may not be a characterization that you like, but it is true nonetheless.


... and substituting even part of the merits of salvation with the works of men is an issue no matter hwat percentage it may be.


And that's another mischaracterization. We don't substitute Christ's merits with men's works. WE UNITE our lives to His Sacrifice in obedience to Scripture:

Wordsmithing does not change the reality. Jesus' sacrifice is all sufficient for my salvation.
You say that you need your works. That leaves Jesus' sacrifice as not being sufficient.


You left out the direct answer to the question. What about those who profess faithfulness but don't work? You said, "No, it is Christian doctrine."

That is not true, but clearly you really do have no shame. After being exposed once, you repeat the same lie. Is dishonesty a good work of your god? I said and I quote (indeed you even quoted me earlier):

"One more time - this time, please read. Professing to be faithful does not save anyone. Receiving Jesus as Saviour is what saves.
Further, your question is in and of itself contradictory because one cannot be faithful and not do good works. "

If you must lie about what I said to defend your faith, is it worth defending?

Good night all.

It may not be a characterization that you like, but it is true nonetheless.

Wordsmithing does not change the reality. Jesus' sacrifice is all sufficient for my salvation.
You say that you need your works. That leaves Jesus' sacrifice as not being sufficient.

More mischaracterizations.

Whom should one believe. An anti-Catholic with an interest in maligning the Church?
A faithful Catholic with an interest in properly presenting Catholic doctrine?

Good night.

More mischaracterizations.

The truth offends.


Whom should one believe. An anti-Catholic with an interest in maligning the Church?

I notice that with Catholics, when the Bible is quoted, many eventually turn to name-calling against their opponents.

Is that a work of your god?

2 Tim 1:8-12
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.
NKJV

Eph 2:7-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

1 Cor 2:2
2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
NKJV

Akoue
Apparently Tj3 will talk about bogus history by not real authentic history.
It has been PROVEN here sever times in several way was will as from the bible and real history that The Church, now called the Catholic Church has been around since Jesus established it.
Why does the truth not register on Tj3?
Could it be because he is afraid of the truth?
Or is it because he is a bigot about denominations?
Or is it because the truth means little to him?
Or is there another reason or two?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Fred

>Thread Closed<
As ever it's going round in circles.