Akoue.
Good question.
I do not see a statement that they were saved.
Fred

It says that they receive the Holy Spirit. Do you believe that the unsaved receive the Holy Spirit?


I am still waiting for you to explain the thief on the cross or Acts 10.

Let me spell it out for you.

The Church holds that there are three kinds of baptism; 1. The baptism of water, 2. The baptism of desire, and 3. the baptism of blood. The first is a sacrament, the others being only an effect of baptism, the receipt of grace, and the remittance of sins. The latter two forms are only effective when baptism by water becomes a physical or moral impossibility.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Baptism (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#III)

Acts 10: 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then they desired him to tarry with them some days.

They were baptized with water!

JoeT

Maybe if you spent less time mis-representing what I say and more time reading what is said....

Here is it once again:

"You know ... what happens when a person is saved according to scripture."

I am making the assumption that you understand what the Bible says happens when a person is saved.

Sorry, missed that one in the shuffle. What happens? What does "indwell" mean? Since I can't find the word anywhere, can you tell what the Greek is? I have no idea what "indwell" means.

Let me spell it out for you.

The Church holds that there are three kinds of baptism;...

I am interested in what scripture says, not your denominational beliefs.


Acts 10: 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then they desired him to tarry with them some days.

They were baptized with water!

After salvation. Exactly.

JoeT
Well said.
Well done.
Fred

What do you think that the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 refers to?

Thanks, Acts 2.38 helps my case A LOT. Not only does Acts 10 not say anything about salvation, Act.2.38 says that they should be baptized so that they can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Joe,

I've got it. It's a shell game. And the Catholics he preys on don't know it's a shell game, so they don't know what to look out for.

Tj,

You repost wasn't a repost. Please indicate the # so I can find your answer.

I knew it before I started. This is a recurrent theme with non-Catholics. Most hold that scriptures are open to private interpretation, thus the meaning becomes subjective to the reader. In short what we see is faith built on how one wills God to react to man. This is in contrast to a faith, such as the Roman Catholic Church built on the objective will of God, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic faith.

JoeT

After salvation. Exactly.

And it says that where, exactly?

Sorry, missed that one in the shuffle. What happens? What does "indwell" mean? Since I can't find the word anywhere, can you tell what the Greek is? I have no idea what "indwell" means.

I assumed that you understood Christian salavtion from a scriptural perspective. If you do not understand these basics, I can understand why this discussion has been so difficult for you.

James 4:5
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
NKJV

Now what about my question - what do you think that the gift of the Holy Spirit is in Acts 2:38.

I am interested in what scripture says, not your denominational beliefs.



After salvation. Exactly.

They are all scripturally based, they are OF Scripture.

JoeT

Thanks, Acts 2.38 helps my case A LOT. Not only does Acts 10 not say anything about salvation, Act.2.38 says that they should be baptized so that they can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And what do you think that the gift of the Holy Spirit is?

I knew it before I started. This is a recurrent theme with non-Catholics. Most hold that scriptures are open to private interpretation, thus the meaning becomes subjective to the reader. In short what we see is faith built on how one wills God to react to man. This is in contrast to a faith, such as the Roman Catholic Church built on the objective will of God, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic faith.

JoeT

Yeah, and I notice he hasn't answered my question about the early Church. It's a shell game.

They are all scripturally based, they are OF Scripture.

JoeT

If so, then use scripture, not denominational teachings.

And what do you think that the gift of the Holy Spirit is?

For the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter. It followed baptism.

And it says that where, exactly?

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can indwell the unsaved?

For the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter. It followed baptism.

It does matter. Answer the question - stop avoiding.

If so, then use scripture, not denominational teachings.

You've said repeatedly on other threads that there were no denominations in the first and second centuries. So why not explain how the early Church Fathers could have got it all so wrong. You know, answer the question I posted just a little bit ago.

Yeah, and I notice he hasn't answered my question about the early Church. It's a shell game.

And he won't. It just keeps going round and round and round, ah heck, and around.

JoeT

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can indwell the unsaved?

I've already told you that I don't know what "indwell" means. Where is it used in Scripture? What's the Greek?

You've said repeatedly on other threads that there were no denominations in the first and second centuries. So why not explain how the early Church Fathers could have got it all so wrong. You know, answer the question I posted just a little bit ago.

Whether they did or did not get any specific point wrong is of no consequence to me. I am here to discuss scripture. If you want to go on to a different discussion, then you are welcome to do so, but I have no interest in that part of the discussion.

I've already told you that I don't know what "indwell" means. Where is it used in Scripture? What's the Greek?

I gave you a quote. Or maybe you did not read it. Post 258.

If so, then use scripture, not denominational teachings.

So if it ain't in scripture, it ain't? Do I read this correctly?

Then I can conclude you don't drive automobiles, fly in planes, or take trains. These aren't in scripture. Just like you don't believe in the Trinity, correct?

JoeT

It does matter. Answer the question - stop avoiding.

Acts 2.38ff doesn't say what the gift is. I don't want to read anything into Scripture that isn't there. I'll just accept what is says, otherwise I would be giving it my own private interpretation.

A person can be inspired by the Holy Spirit without being baptized.
But a person who is properly baptized has the Holy Spirit dwell within him or her.
Fred

So if it ain't in scripture, it ain't? Do I read this correctly?

Then I can conclude you don't drive automobiles, fly in planes, or take trains. These aren't in scripture. Just like you don't believe in the Trinity, correct?

JoeT

I've been thinking about the Trinity too. Thanks for beating me to the punch.

So if it ain't in scripture, it ain't? Do I read this correctly?

Scripture is the standard of doctrine.

Joe,
Again well said.
Well done.
Fred

Acts 2.38ff doesn't say what the gift is. I don't want to read anything into Scripture that isn't there. I'll just accept what is says, otherwise I would be giving it my own private interpretation.

So you don't think that Acts 2:38 speaks about salvation. Interesting because your friends use it to as an argument in favour of water baptism being essential for salvation.

A person can be inspired by the Holy Spirit without being baptized.

Can an unsaved person receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10 is not speaking of inspiration.


But a person who is properly baptized has the Holy Spirit dwell within him or her.

Maybe you should explain the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to Akoue. He does not understand what this means in Christian doctrine.

Scripture is the standard of doctrine.

Key words are being used here; I wondered when we would get to this. Who’s "standard of doctrine"? We wouldn't be talking about your "standard of doctrine" would we. Will we be discussing it here?

JoeT

Key words are being used here; I wondered when we would get to this. Who’s "standard of doctrine"? We wouldn't be talking about your "standard of doctrine" would we. Will we be discussing it here?

JoeT

It is the Christian standard of doctrine. Is it not yours?

I assumed that you understood Christian salavtion from a scriptural perspective. If you do not understand these basics, I can understand why this discussion has been so difficult for you.

James 4:5
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
NKJV

Now what about my question - what do you think that the gift of the Holy Spirit is in Acts 2:38.

Yeah, this doesn't tell me what "indwell" means. Is this some kind of recent neologism.

Here's what James 4.5 says: "Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, 'God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us [phthonon epipothei to pneuma ho katokisen en hemin]."

And you think this is talking about the gift of the Holy Spirit? It doesn't say anything about that. It's talking about the pneuma which God has put into each of us. (God breathed into Adam his pneuma--all living things, even non-believers and Catholics, have that.) Your confused about Scripture *again*.

I just read again acts 10 and it does say that the Holy Spirit cam upon Corneleous and others so Peter had them baptized so the could receive the Holy Spirit.
So my statement that a person can be inspired by the Holy Spirit before being baptized stands as a true biblical fact.
Fred

And what do you think that the gift of the Holy Spirit is?

The Holy Spirit is God. And God gives Himself to us repeatedly.

Do you believe that God can only give Himself to us once? If so, where does Scripture say that?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Yeah, this doesn't tell me what "indwell" means. Is this some kind of recent neologism.

Here's what James 4.5 says: "Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, 'God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us [phthonon epipothei to pneuma ho katokisen en hemin]."

And you think this is talking about the gift of the Holy Spirit? It doesn't say anything about that. It's talking about the pneuma which God has put into each of us. (God breathed into Adam his pneuma--all living things, even non-believers and Catholics, have that.) Your confused about Scripture *again*.

It sounds to me like you are confused. If you were to undertake a study of the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, it would be very beneficial in helping you understand this topic.

John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

De Maria,
Very good question.
Fred

Scripture is the standard of doctrine.

Fine. But you keep *misunderstanding* it! It looks to me like your standard of doctrine is a really, really bad translation. Maybe enroll in an intro. Ancient Greek class.

Maybe you should explain the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to Akoue. He does not understand what this means in Christian doctrine.


First I'd bet your next pay check that he knows more about biblical interpretation than both of us put together. You might recall, he's the professor! But, how would I know what "indwelling" is, I'm Catholic; Catholics "outdwell"

JoeT

It is the Christian standard of doctrine. Is it not yours?

Yes, it is. Along with Tradition. And Magisterium.

I just read again acts 10 and it does say that the Holy Spirit cam upon Corneleous and others so Peter had them baptized so the could receive the Holy Spirit.

That is quite a version of the Bible that you have there. I have read the passage in many different versions and never found one which corrupted the verse like that.

Acts 10:47-48
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

Acts 10:47 clearly speaks of receiving the Holy Spirit in the past tense, and the water baptism is yet to come.

Yes, it is. Along with Tradition. And Magisterium.

I stick to the word of God. I do not add the words of men to it.

Joe.
LOL
Fred

That is quite a version of the Bible that you have there. I have read the passage in many different versions and never found one which corrupted the verse like that.

Acts 10:47-48
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

Acts 10:47 clearly speaks of receiving the Holy Spirit in the past tense, and the water baptism is yet to come.

But it doesn't say, "have been saved as we have." So why do you add that to Scripture.
Since even the Baptized fall away.

It sounds to me like you are confused. If you were to undertake a study of the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, it would be very beneficial in helping you understand this topic.

John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

How does anything you say here show me that I've misread James 4.5? "Undertake a study of the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer"? But that would be extra-biblical; I'd be appealing to something other than Scripture. Wouldn't I then be guilty of entertaining a private interpretation?

This is a lovely passage from John. It says that those who believe *WILL* receive the Holy Spirit.

First I'd bet your next pay check that he knows more about biblical interpretation than both of us put together. You might recall, he’s the professor!

He claims to be, but he has missed on some basic Greek, some basic logic and does not understand the Biblical doctrine of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So if he is a professor, he is not one that I would seek if I were still in university.

How does anything you say here show me that I've misread James 4.5? "Undertake a study of the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer"?

You were thinking of going outside the Bible? I wasn't.


This is a lovely passage from John. It says that those who believe *WILL* receive the Holy Spirit.

As did those in Acts 10.

But it doesn't say, "have been saved as we have." So why do you add that to Scripture.
Since even the Baptized fall away.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can indwell the unsaved?

First I'd bet your next pay check that he knows more about biblical interpretation than both of us put together. You might recall, he’s the professor! But, how would I know what "indwelling" is, I'm Catholic; Catholics "outdwell"

JoeT

Joe,

I'd give you a greenie, but it won't let me (like I think you really care about greenies). But, honestly, I'm learning a lot from you and Fred and De Maria. Fine faithful souls all!

I stick to the word of God. I do not add the words of men to it.

Tradition is the Word of God. Jesus established Tradition and wrote not a word of Scripture. And the New Testament arose from Jesus' Tradition. And Magisterium, the Teaching Church, another Tradition established by Jesus (Matt 28:20) teaches the Word of God.

Yes, it is. Along with Tradition. And Magisterium.

Nice response, that’s twice in one night – that’s all you get!

Semper Fi

Tradition is the Word of God. Jesus established Tradition and wrote not a word of Scripture. And the New Testament arose from Jesus' Tradition.

Jesus' tradition is one thing - your denominational tradition is something much different.


And Magisterium, the Teaching Church, another Tradition established by Jesus (Matt 28:20) teaches the Word of God.

Your denomination did not exist until 325AD.

Tj3 is again making a laughing stock of himself trying to make him look better at Greek that a professional professor.
Tj3's Greek has been criticized many times on several boards.
So it is nothing new.
LOL

Tj3 is again making a laughing stock of himself trying to make him look better at Greek that a professional professor.
Tj3's Greek has been criticized many times on several boards.
So it is nothing new.
LOL


Fred,

If the best that you can do is personal abuse, that says more about you than me. Jesus said gthis to thos of us who would be abused for our faith:

Matt 10:24-26
24 A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household! 26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.
NKJV

Tj,

Where did I make a mistake with the Greek? Can you point that out to me?

I tell the true which is not abuse.
Don't make false accusations.
It is the truth.
Fred

Fred,

If the best that you can do is personal abuse, that says more about you than me.

I don't know. I think it says he has a sense of humor--something you might look into getting yourself one day.

Akoue,
Good advice.
Fred

Jesus' tradition is one thing - your denominational tradition is something much different.



Your denomination did not exist until 325AD.

Well, what about pre-325? You haven't answered my questions about the early Church. How do explain the fact that the Fathers of the first two centuries disagree with you. (Even Tertullian, who opposed infant baptism, still thought we have to be baptized.)

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit can indwell the unsaved?

Was Judas Iscariot an Apostle of Christ's? Was he therefore baptized? And did he receive the Holy Spirit? Was he saved?

Heb 10 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit may indwell the unsaved. That is why the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin. Because they reject the Holy Spirit which indwells their soul and thereby also reject the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross and the Grace freely given by God for their salvation.

It is a thrice unholy rejection of God's Mercy.

Hebrews 6 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I don't know. I think it says he has a sense of humor--something you might look into getting yourself one day.

I guess that I must be making some good points if all you can do it attack the messenger.

Well, what about pre-325? You haven't answered my questions about the early Church. How do explain the fact that the Fathers of the first two centuries disagree with you. (Even Tertullian, who opposed infant baptism, still thought we have to be baptized.)

I did answer. Whether it is you, or me or anyone else, opinions must be submitted to the word of God. If you want to discuss something ogther than scripture, find someone who wishes to discuss it.

I guess that I must be making some good points if all you can do it attack the messenger.

Nope. I just think you're silly for going after Fred. (Also, I just think Fred and Joe have contributed some much-needed humor.)

I did answer. Whether it is you, or me or anyone else, opinions must be submitted to the word of God. If you want to discuss something ogther than scripture, find someone who wishes to discuss it.

Fine, but you're a lousy interpreter of that word--as we just saw, YET AGAIN, in the case of James 4.5.

Well, what about pre-325? You haven't answered my questions about the early Church. How do explain the fact that the Fathers of the first two centuries disagree with you. (Even Tertullian, who opposed infant baptism, still thought we have to be baptized.)

Pre 325, lets see:

Believe in Sola Scriptura? No.

Papias

Whenever anyone came my way, who had been a follower of my seniors, I would ask for the accounts of our seniors: What did Andrew or Peter say? Or Phillip or Thomas or James or John or Matthew, or any of the Lord’s disciples? I also asked: What did Aristion and John the Presbyter, disciples of the Lord say. For, as I see it, it is not so much from books as from the living and permanent voice that I must draw profit (The Sayings of the Lord as recorded by Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 3:39 [A.D. 325]).

Irenaeus

For even creation reveals Him who formed it, and the very work made suggests Him who made it, and the world manifests Him who ordered it. The Universal [Catholic] Church, moreover, through the whole world, has received this tradition from the Apostles (Against Heresies 2:9 [A.D. 189]).

True knowledge is the doctrine of the Apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved, without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither addition nor curtailment [in truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the Word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy… (ibid. 4:33 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

For wherever both the true Christian rule and faith shall be shown to be, there will be the true Scriptures, and the true expositions, of all the true Christian traditions (The Prescription of Heretics 19 [A.D. 200]).

Origen

Seeing there are many who think they hold the opinions of Christ, and yet some of these think differently from their predecessors, yet as the teaching of the Church, transmitted in orderly succession from the Apostles, and remaining in the churches to the present day, is still preserved, that alone is to be accepted as truth which differs in no respect from ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition (On First Principles Bk. 1 Preface 2 [circa A.D. 225]).

[B]Believe in the Pope? Yes.

Clement of Rome

Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret.. . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

Ignatius of Antioch

You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria

[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian

[T]he Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19].. . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

Letter of Clement to James

Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

Cyprian

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

The Lord says to Peter: "I say to you," he says, "that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church".. . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e. apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

[B]Believe in Faith alone? No.

Clement of Rome

Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words.. . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men. (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4 [A.D. 110]).

Theophilus of Antioch

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings, and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither has eye seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries and fornications and homosexuality and avarice and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, and in the end such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycas 1:14 [ca. A.D. 181]).

Clement of Alexandria

When we hear, 'Your faith has saved you,' we do not understand the Lord to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that he spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly and who had lacked only faith in the Lord (Stromateis or Miscellanies 6:14:108:4 [post A.D. 202]).

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).

Cyprian

You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire; you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).

Believe in prayer to Saints? Yes.

Origen

But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II [A.D. 233]).

Pectorius

Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ] (Epitaph [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian

Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 252]).

Anonymous

Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins (funerary inscription near St. Sabina's in Rome [A.D. 300]).

Anonymous

Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days (ibid.).

De Maria

Was Judas Iscariot an Apostle of Christ's? Yes.


Was he therefore baptized? Probably. Though I do not believe that scripture says one way or the other.


And did he receive the Holy Spirit? No. The indwelling was not yet given John 7:39.


Was he saved? I cannot say if he received Christ as his saviour before he died. I could only speculate.


Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit may indwell the unsaved.

Where did it say that? What I see in scripture says the exact opposite:

John 14:16-17
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV

Fine, but you're a lousy interpreter of that word--as we just saw, YET AGAIN, in the case of James 4.5.

Having seen your interpretation, that comment means little.

Yes.

Probably. Though I do not believe that scripture says one way or the other.

No. The indwelling was not yet given John 7:39.

I cannot say if he received Christ as his saviour before he died. I could only speculate.



Where did it say that? What I see in scripture says the exact opposite:

John 14:16-17
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV

I don't see where that says that the unsaved can't receive the Holy Spirit. Where this is clear that those who are Baptized and have received the Holy Spirit are not necessarily saved.

Hebrews 6 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit may indwell the unsaved. Because whether you are saved or not is not for you to decide but for God.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

whether you are saved or not is not for you to decide but for God.


Right. And so it's not for you to say. Good point.

I don't see where that says that the unsaved can't receive the Holy Spirit.

John 14:16-17
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV


Where this is clear that those who are Baptized and have received the Holy Spirit are not necessarily saved.

Really? Read also John 7:39


Hebrews 6 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit may indwell the unsaved.
I cannot see how you come to that interpretation. I don't see anywhere in this passage where that is even implied. Pleaase explain how you come to that conclusion.

John 14:16-17
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV



Really? Read also John 7:39

I cannot see how you come to that interpretation. I don't see anywhere in this passage where that is even implied. Pleaase explain how you come to that conclusion.

How does Jn.7.39 pose a problem for De Maria's claim? It says that the Spirit had not yet come. I don't see how it speaks to the point at issue.

What messenger??
You have been proven wrong here so many times I've lost count.
You still spew you false rot about The Church starting at 325 AD.
You have been proven wrong about that for many years bu refuse the truth and continue to make false accusations.
Some messenger you are.
LOL

How does Jn.7.39 pose a problem for De Maria's claim? It says that the Spirit had not yet come. I don't see how it speaks to the point at issue.

John 7:38-39
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

You need to read the whole verse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria

Was Judas Iscariot an Apostle of Christ's?
Yes.



Was he therefore baptized?

Probably. Though I do not believe that scripture says one way or the other.
I would say that he was, all of the apostles were followers of John. It would seem strange that Judas was the one and only one that didn’t get baptized.


And did he receive the Holy Spirit?

No. The indwelling was not yet given John 7:39.
He didn’t need to indwell. Judas was face to face with God and looked to him as his messiah and in the end turned and rejected him. So, once being “saved” was he then taken into heaven?

Was he saved?

I cannot say if he received Christ as his saviour before he died. I could only speculate.
See my comment above.

JoeT

What messenger?????
You have been proven wrong here so many times I've lost count.
You still spew you false rot about The Church starting at 325 AD.
You have been proven wrong about that for many years bu refuse the truth and continue to make false accusations.
Some messenger you are.
LOL

Fred, if you have something of value to add, then by all means. Your obsession with posting abuse about me should be a matter of concern to you.

Hebrews 6 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit may indwell the unsaved.

I agree with Tj3 this in noway supports that the Holy Spirit is indwelling the unsaved. In fact the exact opposite.

It says if they were once enlightened and made partakers of the Holy Spirit [meaning partakers AFTER they were enlightened] THEN it is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance once they fall away.

So how does it prove unsaved are indwelled with the Holy Spirit?

JoeT
Again you have proven your point.
Well done
Fred

De Maria's claim: "those who are Baptized and have received the Holy Spirit are not necessarily saved"


John 7:38-39
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

You need to read the whole verse.

Okay, the believers were going to receive the Spirit. And this shows that they cannot, for instance, later renounce their faith, etc. Certainly we don't find the words "saved" or "salvation" used here. So can you explain how this pericope falsifies De Maria's claim? I'm not seeing it.

Tj3,
I have been posting valuable truth about you and scripture.
Its to bad that you did not noticed.
Fred

Fred, if you have something of value to add, then by all means. Your obsession with posting abuse about me should be a matter of concern to you.

I'd like to see a response to the following - are you just going to ignor it?:


Pre 325, lets see:

Believe in Sola Scriptura? No.

Papias

Whenever anyone came my way, who had been a follower of my seniors, I would ask for the accounts of our seniors: What did Andrew or Peter say? Or Phillip or Thomas or James or John or Matthew, or any of the Lord’s disciples? I also asked: What did Aristion and John the Presbyter, disciples of the Lord say. For, as I see it, it is not so much from books as from the living and permanent voice that I must draw profit (The Sayings of the Lord as recorded by Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 3:39 [A.D. 325]).

Irenaeus

For even creation reveals Him who formed it, and the very work made suggests Him who made it, and the world manifests Him who ordered it. The Universal [Catholic] Church, moreover, through the whole world, has received this tradition from the Apostles (Against Heresies 2:9 [A.D. 189]).

True knowledge is the doctrine of the Apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved, without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither addition nor curtailment [in truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the Word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy… (ibid. 4:33 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

For wherever both the true Christian rule and faith shall be shown to be, there will be the true Scriptures, and the true expositions, of all the true Christian traditions (The Prescription of Heretics 19 [A.D. 200]).

Origen

Seeing there are many who think they hold the opinions of Christ, and yet some of these think differently from their predecessors, yet as the teaching of the Church, transmitted in orderly succession from the Apostles, and remaining in the churches to the present day, is still preserved, that alone is to be accepted as truth which differs in no respect from ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition (On First Principles Bk. 1 Preface 2 [circa A.D. 225]).

[B]Believe in the Pope? Yes.

Clement of Rome

Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

Ignatius of Antioch

You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria

[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian

[T]he Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19]. ... Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

Letter of Clement to James

Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

Cyprian

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

The Lord says to Peter: "I say to you," he says, "that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church" . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

[B]Believe in Faith alone? No.

Clement of Rome

Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words. . . . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? . . . So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men. (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4 [A.D. 110]).

Theophilus of Antioch

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings, and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither has eye seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries and fornications and homosexuality and avarice and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, and in the end such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycas 1:14 [ca. A.D. 181]).

Clement of Alexandria

When we hear, 'Your faith has saved you,' we do not understand the Lord to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that he spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly and who had lacked only faith in the Lord (Stromateis or Miscellanies 6:14:108:4 [post A.D. 202]).

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).

Cyprian

You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire; you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).

Believe in prayer to Saints? Yes.

Origen

But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II [A.D. 233]).

Pectorius

Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ] (Epitaph [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian

Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 252]).

Anonymous

Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins (funerary inscription near St. Sabina's in Rome [A.D. 300]).

Anonymous

Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days (ibid.).

De Maria

What about the guy on TV her a while back who was raised in a Christian home, baptized and all but became a Muslim terrorist?
Was he saved?

John 14:16-17
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

I take it, you are equating the term "unsaved" with the term "the world". That is the only way I can make sense of your assertion that the Holy Spirit can't indwell the unsaved.

However, we don't make that equation since that equation is not in Scripture. It is your assumption.

Although many in the world are not saved, many will be saved when they repent and come to Christ. Also, some who receive the Holy Spirit, will fall and be condemned.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Really? Read also John 7:39

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

I don't see even a remote connection with the idea that the unsaved can't be indwelled by the Holy Spirit.


I cannot see how you come to that interpretation. I don't see anywhere in this passage where that is even implied. Pleaase explain how you come to that conclusion.

par·take (pär-tk)
v. par·took (-tk), par·tak·en (-tkn), par·tak·ing, pa·takes
v.intr.
1. To take or have a part or share; participate.
2. To take or be given part or portion: The guests partook of a delicious dinner.
3. To have part of the quality, nature, or character of something.
v.tr.
To take or have a part in; share in.

Heb 6 4For it is impossible

It is not possible

for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

for those who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

And have believed in God and the resurrection

6If they shall fall away,

If they should reject said gift of the Holy Spirit

to renew them again unto repentance;....


to be saved

Sincerely,

De Maria

What about the guy on TV a while back who was raised in a Christian home, baptized and all but became a Muslim terrorist?
:confused:Was he saved?:confused:
Fred

What about the guy on TV her a while back who was raised in a Christian home, baptized and all but became a Muslim terrorist?
Was he saved?

Are you thinking about John Walker Lindh? The kid who joined the Taliban? He's still alive no? And as for his salvation: We can only hope so. Right?

Duplicate

I take it, you are equating the term "unsaved" with the term "the world". That is the only way I can make sense of your assertion that the Holy Spirit can't indwell the unsaved.

It would be interesting who you think the world is in this context.


However, we don't make that equation since that equation is not in Scripture. It is your assumption.

You must think that this refers to Christians then:

1 John 3:13-14
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.
NKJV

No where does it say that the unsaved can be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The reference in Hebrew refers to those who were saved and then turned away from their salvation and became unsaved. It says that they were indwelled when they were saved, but I fail to see where it says that the unsaved were indwelled.

So how does it prove unsaved are indwelled with the Holy Spirit?

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,

We are enlightened by receiving the Holy Spirit, are we not?

and have tasted of the heavenly gift,

The heavenly gift is the Holy Spirit, is it not?

and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost


What does "partakers of the Holy Ghost" mean to you?

It is clear that these people were indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

6If they shall fall away,

Notice the big "IF". There is no assurance of salvation here. These folks can fall away.

And if they do, they won't repent:

For it is impossible... to renew them again unto repentance

Do you know of anyone who is saved who will not repent?

Sincerely,

De Maria

No where does it say that the unsaved can be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The reference in Hebrew refers to those who were saved and then turned away from their salvation and became unsaved. It says that they were indwelled when they were saved, but I fail to see where it says that the unsaved were indwelled.

When they were saved?

Obviously, their salvation was an illusion since they were not really saved. So, the unsaved were indwelled of the Holy Ghost, but they rejected that indwelling.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Akoue ,
Right.
Let us hope so.
Fred

It would be interesting who you think the world is in this context.



You must think that this refers to Christians then:

1 John 3:13-14
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.
NKJV

No where does it say that the unsaved can be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The reference in Hebrew refers to those who were saved and then turned away from their salvation and became unsaved. It says that they were indwelled when they were saved, but I fail to see where it says that the unsaved were indwelled.

The word "world" refers to things other than the unsaved. Jn.1.10: "He was in the world., and the world came into being through him". Kosmos is used both in 1Jn.13-14 and Jn.1.10. It doesn't appear to mean the same thing. So why contrue "world" so narrowly?

What does "partakers of the Holy Ghost" mean to you?

It is clear that these people were indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

6If they shall fall away,

Notice the big "IF". There is no assurance of salvation here. These folks can fall away.

You mis-understand what assurance of salvation means. It does not mean that you cannot choose to later reject your salvation.


And if they do, they won't repent:

For it is impossible... to renew them again unto repentance

Do you know of anyone who is saved who will not repent?

Now where does it say that the unsaved are indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

De Maria.
I agree!
Fred

Obviously, their salvation was an illusion since they were not really saved.

Scripture says that they were saved. By what authority do you say not?

The word "world" refers to things other than the unsaved. Jn.1.10: "He was in the world., and the world came into being through him". Kosmos is used both in 1Jn.13-14 and Jn.1.10. It doesn't appear to mean the same thing.

I agree that the context will dictate what it means. I never said otherwise.

[QUOTE=De Maria;1415559]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,

We are enlightened by receiving the Holy Spirit, are we not?

Yeah so HOW do we receive and BECOME partakers of the Holy Spirit if we already had the Holy Spirit when we were unsaved?

Scripture says that they were saved. By what authority do you say not?

By Scripture. Scripture says they have fallen away and won't repent. Can anyone be saved who does not repent of their sins?

By Scripture. Scripture says they have fallen away and won't repent. Can anyone be saved who does not repent of their sins?

Where does it say that those who were unsaved were indwelled by the Holy Spirit. It says that they were when they were saved, but what about after they turned away from Christ - where does it say that the Holy Spirit continued to indwell?

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,

We are enlightened by receiving the Holy Spirit, are we not?

Yeah so HOW do we receive and BECOME partakers of the Holy Spirit if we already had the Holy Spirit when we were unsaved?

You aren't making sense. This is not talking about people in the world. But about believers, who received the Holy Spirit, but fell away and did not repent.

They were never saved, that was only an illusion.

JoeT,
I have yet to see Tj3 respond to the post by De Maria where she posts quotes by the early Church Fathers.
For some reason I thing I never will for he either can not or won't.
Fred

JoeT,
I have yet to see Tj3 respond to the post by De Maria where she posts quotes by the early Church Fathers.
For some reason I thing I never will for he either can not or won't.
Fred

Fred,

Maybe you did not read what I said several times. I have no interest in discussing opinions. I only want to discuss what scripture says.

Tom

Where does it say that those who were unsaved were indwelled by the Holy Spirit. It says that they were when they were saved,

Scripture doesn't say they were saved. You do.


but what about after they turned away from Christ - where does it say that the Holy Spirit continued to indwell?

Where does it say that Spirit departed them?

As for me, I would rather believe that the Spirit did depart them when they turned away. But that Scripture doesn't say so. If you can find one that does say so, please post it.

But it won't help your argument. Because this Scripture never calls them who fell away after they received the Holy Spirit, saved. And since, in the end, they were not saved, that means that the unsaved were indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

Sincerely,

De Maria

You aren't making sense. This is not talking about people in the world. But about believers, who received the Holy Spirit, but fell away and did not repent.

They were never saved, that was only an illusion.

I'm not making any sense? I thought you were using this scripture to prove that unbelievers have the Holy Spirit before they are saved. I am not following the point of why you used this if that was not why.

Where do you get they were never saved? How could they have never been saved when it says they were and fell away?

[QUOTE=N0help4u;1415586]

You aren't making sense. This is not talking about people in the world. But about believers, who received the Holy Spirit, but fell away and did not repent.

Scripture says that only those who are saved have the Holy Spirit, so why would you assume that they continue to have the Holy Spirit if they reject their salvation?

I'm not making any sense? I thought you were using this scripture to prove that unbelievers have the Holy Spirit before they are saved. I am not following the point of why you used this if that was not why.

I am confused over his reasoning also. He seems to be all over the map.

Fred,

Maybe you did not read what I said several times. I have no interest in discussing opinions. I only want to discuss what scripture says.

Tom

And we're discussing opinions about what Scripture says. Are you really uninterested in what the Apostles students have to say? They have nothing to teach us? You've made mention in past of biblical scholars, you talk about the history (which I'm guessing you get from books other than the Bible)--and yet you see no value whatever in how others have understood Scripture? You have nothing to learn from anyone? If your answer to that is No, then why wouldn't you avail yourself of the resources provided by the early Fathers (many of whom were martyred)?

JoeT,
I have yet to see Tj3 respond to the post by De Maria where she posts quotes by the early Church Fathers.
For some reason I thing I never will for he either can not or won't.
Fred

You might as well get some sleep. I think we’ll be waiting till the 2nd, or maybe the 3rd or 4th coming of Christ before we get an answer (this is an inside joke folks).

Strange isn’t it, we answer his questions but Tj doesn’t seem to return the curtsy with a reasoned response.

Goodnight Fred.

Tj3,
So you chose to ignore what the early Church Fathers said about Jesus, Scrioture and the Church.
That shouts loudly about yourself protection so you can continue to make the FALSE claim that the Catholic Church started in 325 AD.
Whether you like it of not it IS the holy Church founded by Jesus Christ and anything other than that you may say of believe IS an intentional error on your part.

And we're discussing opinions about what Scripture says.

Maybe your opinions. I am going to scripture to see what it says. God's word directed the Apostles, it is what Jesus used to resolve theologicial questions, and it is the source that I used to determine what sound doctrine is.

Good night Joe.
Sleep well.
You have done well.
Fred

Tj3,
So you chose to ignore what the early Church Fathers said about Jesus, Scrioture and the Church.

I don't "ignore". But when I want to know what sound doctrine is, I go to the source.


That shouts loudly about yourself protection so you can continue to make the FALSE claim that the Catholic Church started in 325 AD.

The historical truth really gets under your skin, doesn't it Fred?

Akoue,
Points well made.
Tom Smith (Tj3) proves again that he has a closed mind which is made up full of bogus Church history.
Fred

You might as well get some sleep. I think we'll be waiting till the 2nd, or maybe the 3rd or 4th coming of Christ before we get an answer (this is an inside joke folks).

You mean until you give me an answer to the questions that I asked you? :p

Maybe your opinions. I am going to scripture to see what it says. God's word directed the Apostles, it is what Jesus used to resolve theologicial questions, and it is the source that I used to determine what sound doctrine is.

You're going to Scripture, sure, but you keep misunderstanding it. And you *still* haven't replied in a rigorous and thorough way to the objections I posted ages ago. Or, rather, the couple of times you did I showed that you were *still* mistaken.

Where did Jesus use a faulty understanding of Eph.2--or even a good understanding of Eph.2--to solve a theological question? When do you think the books of the NT were written?

Good night Joe.
Sleep well.
You have done well.
Fred

Thanks, God Bless.

Akoue,
Points well made.
Tom Smith (Tj3) proves again that he has a closed mind which is made up full of bogus Church history.
Fred

Just like your denomination's Cardinal John Henry Newman who says the same thing.

Fred, I truly pray that some day you'll drop the bitterness and perhaps we can have a real discussion.

I don't "ignore". But when I want to know what sound doctrine is, I go to the source.



The historical truth really gets under your skin, doesn't it Fred?

Where are you getting this historical truth? Can you offer any documentary support for you claim?

You're going to Scripture, sure, but you keep misunderstanding it. And you *still* haven't replied in a rigorous and thorough way to the objections I posted ages ago. Or, rather, the couple of times you did I showed that you were *still* mistaken.

I know - only you are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. It may disturb you to know that you are not the standard of all truth, and I have responded to you.

I don't "ignore". But when I want to know what sound doctrine is, I go to the source.



The historical truth really gets under your skin, doesn't it Fred?

Where are you getting this historical truth? Can you offer any documentary support for your claim?

I'm not making any sense? I thought you were using this scripture to prove that unbelievers have the Holy Spirit before they are saved. I am not following the point of why you used this if that was not why.

Where do you get they were never saved? How could they have never been saved when it says they were

Where does it say they were saved?


and fell away?

It says they were enlightened and received the gift of the Holy Spirit. They fell away from this enlightenment. And yes, from salvation which they were approaching but they never possessed.

You're going to Scripture, sure, but you keep misunderstanding it. And you *still* haven't replied in a rigorous and thorough way to the objections I posted ages ago. Or, rather, the couple of times you did I showed that you were *still* mistaken.

I know - only you are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. It may disturb you to know that you are not the standard of all truth, and I have responded to you.

Where are you getting this historical truth? Can you offer any documentary support for your claim?

Sigh! I have many many times, and Fred knows it. But that is a topic for a different thread, don't you think?

N0help4u,
I believe the De Maria is saying that only those who are saved are really saved, not when some person says they are.
This bogus theology about one saved always saved and the other one called self assures saved is very much in error.
Only God knows who is saved or will be.
Judas may have been on the road to salvation but I believe he blew that when he betrayed Jesus.
But I might me wrong.
ONLY God knows for sure.
Fred

Where does it say they were saved?

So let me get this straight. You were claiming this as an example of the unsaved having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit based upon your own assumptions that they are unsaved.

If that is not the case, then please establish your claim.

Arcura
I agree with what you are saying about once saved always saved is not correct because there are many professing Christians and so forth but I am not following De Marie's point on the Holy Spirit, the unsaved and this scripture.

N0help4u,
I believe the De Maria is saying that only those who are saved are really saved, not when some person says they are.

So you reject the Biblical teaching that says that we have assurance of salvation.

De Maria.
I just read your post to NoHelp4U.
I made a post to her concerning what you said.
I hope I god that right.
If not, please correct me.
Fred

I believe the verse IS talking about believers that backslid.
I understand that many are not saved as we assume but the verse specifically is talking about ENLIGHTENED and falling away. The Bible does say that believers CAN fall away.

I do not believe it is referring to unsaved that believe they are saved but are wrong and if it does how and why would they actually be enlightened yet unsaved?

Sigh! I have many many times, and Fred knows it. But that is a topic for a different thread, don't you think?

Oh, I don't know. We are talking about understanding Scripture. Some of us find it useful in understanding Scripture to consider how thoughtful people have understood it. And, in this case, since your reading cuts directly against the grain of the understanding-and practice--of the earliest Christians... Yeah, I see the relevance. (And come with Newman if you like. I'd enjoy that greatly.--Do you have anything other than Newman?)

Where are you getting this historical truth? Can you offer any documentary support for you claim?

Gosh! I thought he'd shown that to everyone. It's a joke. Cardinal Newman calls the Christian religion the "New Religion" in Rome and from that statement, TJ builds a whole new history of Christianity.

Obviously, Cardinal Newman was speaking of "new" religion in relation to the "old" pagan religion which Christianity replaced.

When he produces it again, and he's very proud of it, so he will. Go to entire document, and read one paragraph prior to the one snippet TJ will provide and the whole thing will be made clear.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I believe the verse IS talking about believers that backslid.
I understand that many are not saved as we assume but the verse specifically is talking about ENLIGHTENED and falling away. The Bible does say that believers CAN fall away.

I do not believe it is referring to unsaved that believe they are saved but are wrong and if it does how and why would they actually be enlightened yet unsaved?

I think that you are right. I think that De Maria is trying to read into it what she wants it to say and that is why her explanation is so confusing.

If that is the strongest argument that she has for her belief that the unsaved can be indwelled by the Holy Spirit, then I'd say that her argument is in serious trouble.

De Maria.
I just read your post to NoHelp4U.
I made a post to her concerning what you said.
I hope I god that right.
If not, please correct me.
Fred

You are correct Fred.

Again I ask:


I believe the verse IS talking about believers that backslid.
I understand that many are not saved as we assume but the verse specifically is talking about ENLIGHTENED and falling away. The Bible does say that believers CAN fall away.

I do not believe it is referring to unsaved that believe they are saved but are wrong and if it does how and why would they actually be enlightened yet unsaved?

I believe the verse IS talking about believers that backslid.
I understand that many are not saved as we assume but the verse specifically is talking about ENLIGHTENED and falling away. The Bible does say that believers CAN fall away.

I do not believe it is referring to unsaved that believe they are saved but are wrong and if it does how and why would they actually be enlightened yet unsaved?

Soooo, this verse is about people that went to heaven?

Tj3,
NO!!
I did not say that.
We are assured of salvation if we do as God says do and He accepts that and saves us.
Only God knows FOR SURE who is or is not saved.
That I believe from Holy Scripture.
You believe as you interpret Scripture which is your right.
But that does not mean that I agree with you on that subject because I do not.
Many times I have agreed with you and many times I have not.
I believe that as time moves on that will continue to be the case.
Fred

Gosh! I thought he'd shown that to everyone. Its a joke. Cardinal Newman calls the Christian religion the "New Religion" in Rome and from that statement, TJ builds a whole new history of Christianity.

Obviously, Cardinal Newman was speaking of "new" religion in relation to the "old" pagan religion which Christianity replaced.

Except that he says that Constantine did it (not Jesus) and that paganism was brought into the "new religion" when it was created. Jesus did not do that either.

Also Constantine was in the 4th century, not the 1st, so your argument that it refers to Christianity falls flat.

Gosh! I thought he'd shown that to everyone. Its a joke. Cardinal Newman calls the Christian religion the "New Religion" in Rome and from that statement, TJ builds a whole new history of Christianity.

Obviously, Cardinal Newman was speaking of "new" religion in relation to the "old" pagan religion which Christianity replaced.

When he produces it again, and he's very proud of it, so he will. Go to entire document, and read one paragraph prior to the one snippet TJ will provide and the whole thing will be made clear.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I suspected as much. I've seen some of his posts on this, and he's got nothing. But, interestingly, the question I originally posed was about the Church pre-325. So the fanciful stuff shouldn't matter. We can just look at the Apostolic Fathers... if he's read them. He doesn't seem comfortable departing from the script, though.

Except that he says that Constantine did it (not Jesus) and that paganism was brought into the "new religion" when it was created. Jesus did not do that either.

Also Constantine was in the 4th century, not the 1st, so your argument that it refers to Christianity falls flat.

Bring it up again TJ, please. I really would like for Akoue to see it. Thanks. Its quite pitiful.

The Bible has many verses about believers having confidence of their salvation and boldly proclaiming it so I believe we can know and have assurance we are saved.

Tj3,
NO!!
I did not say that.
We are assured of salvation if we do as God says do and He accepts that and saves us.

But Fred, Romans 3:23 says that no one has done what He says.


Only God knows FOR SURE who is or is not saved.

Then you think that scripture is wrong?

2 Tim 1:8-10
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
NKJV

Titus 3:4-8
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV

I suspected as much. I've seen some of his posts on this, and he's got nothing. But, interestingly, the question I originally posed was about the Church pre-325. So the fanciful stuff shouldn't matter. We can just look at the Apostolic Fathers... if he's read them. He doesn't seem comfortable departing from the script, though.

Heh heh heh, maybe you operate from a script, but I don't.

Fred does - he copies and pastes many answers from a site called the Catholic Apologists Cheatsheet.

The Bible has many verses about believers having confidence of their salvation and boldly proclaiming it so I believe we can know and have assurance we are saved.

But now you're ignoring the question. Does this verse describe people who went to heaven?

Heb 6 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If not, what were they "saved" from?

Heh heh heh, maybe you operate from a script, but I don't.

Fred does - he copies and pastes many answers from a site called the Catholic Apologists Cheatsheet.

Awesome website. I use it myself.

Great minds think alike Fred!!

Tj3,
Newman was saying that Constantine OUTLAWED paganism and made Christianity the empire's official religion.
Nothing else.
You are twisting what Newman said to fit what you want to believe, not what was actually said in the context of the history of that time.
You have a bad habit of twisting things people say and Scripture to fit what you want to believe. It is your trademark.
By your works and actions we and God knows you well.
Fred

2 Tim 1:8-10
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
NKJV



I think that verse covers the works thing perfectly because it says not according to our works but according to our purpose.
As I was saying before we can do all the good works and not be saved BUT are we where God wants us doing what he wants us to do [purpose!]

Except that he says that Constantine did it (not Jesus) and that paganism was brought into the "new religion" when it was created. Jesus did not do that either.

Also Constantine was in the 4th century, not the 1st, so your argument that it refers to Christianity falls flat.

Let's just stick with the first and second centuries. Now, how do you respond to my earlier post regarding the beliefs and practices of the early Church?

Tj3,
Newman was saying that Constantine OUTLAWED paganism and made Christianity the empire's official religion.

He specifically names a number of items from the pagan Roman religion brought into the church by Constantine.

Let's just stick with the first and second centuries. Now, how do you respond to my earlier post regarding the beliefs and practices of the early Church?

As I said, I am sticking to what scripture says. If you want to discuss other sources, then start a different thread, or find those who wish to discuss that particular topic.

Heh heh heh, maybe you operate from a script, but I don't.

Fred does - he copies and pastes many answers from a site called the Catholic Apologists Cheatsheet.

Cool. At least he gets stuff right. Maybe you should find yourself a good source to crib from, because you don't fare very well left unattended.

Cool. At least he gets stuff right. Maybe you should find yourself a good source to crib from, because you don't fare very well left unattended.

Akoue,

Having seen your handling of the word of God, as I said before, your criticism carries no weight at all.

The so called Catholic Cheat sheet that I have used and will continue to use does a great job of telling the truth about various biblical subjects.
For some reason Tj3 seem to be very upset with me providing the truth via that sheet.
He keeps bringing it up as though I was committing a sin.
He likes to quote from various sources in attempt to verify what he is saying but for some reason if I quote from other sources it is a bad thing.
LOL
Is he being narrow minded or what?
Fred

The so called Catholic Cheat sheet that I have used and will continue to use does a great job of telling the truth about various biblical subjects.

So far I have refuted everything that you have ever posted from it. Indeed, whoever created it did not even appear to have read many of his own references.


For some reason Th3 seem to be very uoset with me providing the truth via that sheet.
He keeps bringing it up as though I was committing a sin.

I find it to be unethical to copy and paste from what someone else has done without given credit.

But Fred, Romans 3:23 says that no one has done what He says.

Then you think that scripture is wrong?

Of course not. Fred is a faithful Catholic and Catholics believe the Scriptures are inerrant.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

As you can see, the Scriptures say that Christ saves those who obey Him.


2 Tim 1:8-10
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

This letter is addressed to TIMOTHY. So, St. Paul is saying that HE AND TIMOTHY are saved. Can St. Paul be certain that he and St. Timothy are saved. Yes. The Church teaches that one can be certain of salvation if it is revealed by private revelation. Since, St. Paul was taken to the seven heavens, we can be sure that God revealed many things to him.

The Council of Trent states: "If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema"(Council of Trent, Canon 16).



Titus 3:4-8
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV

Baptism now saves us. The washing of regeneration refers to WATER and renewing of the Holy Spirit, refers to SPIRIT.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I think that verse covers the works thing perfectly because it says not according to our works but according to our purpose.
As I was saying before we can do all the good works and not be saved BUT are we where God wants us doing what he wants us to do [purpose!]

How does 2Tim.1.8-10 help Tj. No one has argued that we can be saved by works ALONE?

I think that verse covers the works thing perfectly because it says not according to our works but according to our purpose.
As I was saying before we can do all the good works and not be saved BUT are we where God wants us doing what he wants us to do [purpose!]

That's Catholic Teaching. We do the works of God. We obey God in our works. That is why they are called "good works".

Akoue,

Having seen your handling of the word of God, as I said before, your criticism carries no weight at all.

Quote one or more of my discussions of Scripture and explain to me how I got it wrong.

Tj3,
You have not ever successful refuted what the Cheat Sheet provides. You have attempted to but as usual fell flat on your face.
The reason is that that sheet provides passage from Scripture and some cases is backed up by real authentic history not your bogus version.
So please do not claim that you have successfully refuted it because that is NOT true.
Or do you LIKE to say not true things?
It does seem so.
Fred

Akoue,
He can not or will not.
So is his history.
Fred

Thats Catholic Teaching. We do the works of God. We obey God in our works. That is why they are called "good works".

Many believe they are doing God's work such as professing Christians that think they can 'earn' their salvation. So again I ask what do you think are good works of God?
Is it baking for the Church social?

Many believe they are doing God's work such as professing Christians that think they can 'earn' their salvation. So again I ask what do you think are good works of God?
Is it baking for the Church social?

And anybody who thinks they can "earn" salvation is mistaken. We've said that all along. That is not to say that works aren't still necessary for salvation. These are importantly distinct claims.

De Maria,
Good work with that answer to NoHlep4U.
We are asked (Biblically speaking) to do certain works and work of God.
The bible also says that we will be judged by our works good and bad.
Is there any passages that say that how bad, good, week, strong, or whatever our faith is will be judged?
Fred

Many believe they are doing God's work such as professing Christians that think they can 'earn' their salvation. So again I ask what do you think are good works of God?
Is it baking for the Church social?

Read Matt 25, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and inprison, clothing the naked.
Read St. James, caring for widows and orphans.

In addition to Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Holy Orders, Matrimony, Extreme Unction, attending Mass etc. etc.

These are all good works. And I don't think baking for the Church social is disqualified either.

Here is the problem I have with Christians that believe their doing good works is what saves them. As I have said you can be doing good works for God but is it what God wants you to be doing?
I see many Christians that get on a 'campaign' to help a person or group out (like baking for the church rummage sale) yet they neglect to see or help the needy person sitting on the pew next to them. They are so busy doing the things that they feel important yet the person on the pew next to them they have the attitude that it is their own problem or fault if they are needy. When God could be wanting them to actually be helping them out.

Here is the problem I have with Christians that believe their doing good works is what saves them. As I have said you can be doing good works for God but is it what God wants you to be doing?
I see many Christians that get on a 'campaign' to help a person or group out (like baking for the church rummage sale) yet they neglect to see or help the needy person sitting on the pew next to them. They are so busy doing the things that they feel important yet the person on the pew next to them they have the attitude that it is their own problem or fault if they are needy. When God could be wanting them to actually be helping them out.

Of course, your works have to be in harmony with GOd's will. Nobody disputes that. Good works are to be performed in a spirit of humility. See James 2.14-17: If you send away someone on need of food and clothing, your faith alone will not save you.

N0help4u,
No one can earn a free trip to heaven.
Yes making food for a Church social can be considered to be a good work.
We just had one and the money made went for charitable purposes such as the food bank to feed the hungry.
We are to produce good fruit which is harvested by others.
That is a good work.
A good work is to provide the truth about the Gospel and to spread it.
I could name many good works which God has indicated are pleasing in His eyes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

And anybody who thinks they can "earn" salvation is mistaken. We've said that all along. That is not to say that works aren't still necessary for salvation. These are importantly distinct claims.

It has to do with obedience.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Exodus 23:22
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Deuteronomy 11:27
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Here is the problem I have with Christians that believe their doing good works is what saves them. As I have said you can be doing good works for God but is it what God wants you to be doing?
I see many Christians that get on a 'campaign' to help a person or group out (like baking for the church rummage sale) yet they neglect to see or help the needy person sitting on the pew next to them. They are so busy doing the things that they feel important yet the person on the pew next to them they have the attitude that it is their own problem or fault if they are needy. When God could be wanting them to actually be helping them out.

What makes you decide whom should be helped and who shouldn't?

Let's look at James 2 for a minute. You tell us to look at the context. The context, reading from James 2.14: We get the question, "What good is it, my brothers, is someone says he has faith [pistin] but does not have works [erga]? CAN THAT FAITH SAVE HIM [me dunatai he pistis sosai auton]?" Then, in vv.16-17 we are given an example: If someone has nothing to wear and has no food, "and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace'" without providing for their needs, "what good is it"? Now verse 17: "So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead [houtos hai he pistis, ean me eche erga, nekra estin kath' heauten]"--it is not a living faith.

Now v.20: "Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless [Theleis de gnonai, ho anthrope kene, hoti he pistis choris ton ergon arge estin]?"

Now v.21: "Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS [ex ergon] when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar. <22> You see that faith [he pistis] was active along with his works [tois ergois autou], and faith [he pistis] was completed by the works [ek ton ergon]."

It looks to me like what's required is both faith and works together, as I've been saying, so that neither alone (i.e., in the absence of the other) is sufficient.

Where on earth are you getting this bizzaro faith/faithfulness business? The word is "pistis"--faith. If the NT were making a distinction between "faith" and "faithfulness" wouldn't you expect it to have been made in the Gk? But what you find in the Gk. is just "pistis". So you are trying to read a distinction drawn in English--faith/faithfulness--into the NT, which has only the word "pistis".

Good job Akoue and this comes from a Greek!

It has to do with obedience.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Exodus 23:22
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Deuteronomy 11:27
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Yes, and your intentions matter. An act undertaken out of a desire to be "puffed up" is devalued thereby. In adjudicating our actions, God adjudicates our intentions. Obedience provides for both rectitude and stability: If we cultivate the habitus of acting from obedience, we will be more likely to perform actions in harmony with God's will and purposes when those actions involve sacrifice or hardship.

Well, its been fun. Good night all.

De Maria.
I agree.
Have a good sleep.
You have earned it.
Good night,
Fred

Time for me to sign off too. Good night, all, and be well.

It seems to me that we are just waiting for someone to write something ''strange'' so that we can attack!We show no efford to understand someone's point of view and take it a liitle bit further from what is written.We enjoy playing with words and we seem to be word servants instead of making the words working for us.I see no hunger to share , I only see the will to justify our opinions.
I am very sad with this, I cannot believe the bloodbath here.I am sure that Satan is laughing at us right this moment!
You spend so much of yourselves and what good came out of it?
Who got closer to Christ through this?What glory did Jesus gain from all this?What kind of reward do you think Jesus will give us for this?
Please remember your first love!How difficult can it be?Is it easier for us to hurt our brothers than to fight the enemy?
You turned my Father's house into a house of a killer!

Genesis 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

How can't you see?There is only A river, the River of Life, Jesus and this river is parted .I have one part , you have one part, he has one part, they have one part and we should ALL water the Garden.But instead we turn ourselves against each other , so no good comes out of it.No water is reaching the garden to water it!There is only a mess everywhere!!
God has given us a part of Himself , for one purpose... to water the garden.Are we doing this?Do we obey Him?If someone believes that through faith we are saved , he is right, but is this faith?Are we faithfull to Him?Do we show ANY faith to Him?If someone believes that faith without works is dead , he is right but is this how we work for Him?Are these our faith and works?
A non believer would turn as far away as he could from Jesus just because of us, because we are an awfull example!
There is no light in us that could take away the darkness from the world.If there was ANY light in us , Jesus would have put us in a place where EVERYBODY could see our light and everybody would have admitt that WE HAVE CHRIST IN US!!
No wonder the world remains in darkness!
Aren't we the salt of the world?And if the world is like it is , aren't we also to blame?

How does 2Tim.1.8-10 help Tj. No one has argued that we can be saved by works ALONE?

Read it. It does not say "Not accordingly to works alone...", but it says "...not according to works".

It has to do with obedience.

De Maria,

Tell me one person other than Jesus who has been perfectly obedient (Rom 3:23), keeping in mind that partial obedience is not an option if you seek to use works for salvation (James 2:10).

And anybody who thinks they can "earn" salvation is mistaken. We've said that all along. That is not to say that works aren't still necessary for salvation. These are importantly distinct claims.

No, because if you must do something or your do not receive something in return, that is "earning" it. If you say that works are essential to be saved, then you are saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient and that man's works can fill that gap.

De Maria,

Tell me one person other than Jesus who has been perfectly obedient ,

Why? What does that have to do with the FACT that Scripture says that Jesus will save those who obey Him?

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


(Rom 3:23)

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5: 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


keeping in mind that partial obedience is not an option if you seek to use works for salvation (James 2:10).

You don't understand. We who are living in the law of grace are EXPECTED TO BE PERFECT. That is what St. James means:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Understand that we no longer live by the Law of Moses, but by the Law of Jesus:

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Living under Jesus' law, we must refrain from sin:

Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

So, if you think that being a Christian, you now have a license to ignore the Commandments, you are gravely mistaken:

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 3: 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Read it.

OK.


It does not say "Not accordingly to works alone...", but it says "...not according to works".


2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord,

Therefore, we must not be ashamed to let people know we are Christians.


nor of me his prisoner:

Nor should we be ashamed to let people know that we also follow St. Paul and our leaders in the Faith.


but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel

But unite yourself with the Gospel and suffer with Christ. As the same Apostle says elsewhere:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

This means that if we suffer with Jesus, we will be glorified and if we don't suffer with Jesus, we won't be glorified with Him.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

In essence, suffering is a work which perfects our faith.

1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.


according to the power of God;

According to God's will.


9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,

Who has saved us and called us by the Sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son.


not according to our works,

Because neither faith nor works could merit that Jesus come in the flesh and die for our sins.


but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

But according to His will which is that those whom obey Him should be saved:

Deut 30: 15See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.


10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

But Jesus Christ has died in order to bring life to those who obey Him:

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria,

Tell me one person other than Jesus who has been perfectly obedient (Rom 3:23), keeping in mind that partial obedience is not an option if you seek to use works for salvation (James 2:10).

Tell us then why does Peter exhort us to holiness in life trhough obedience in the first book of Peter chapter 1? 1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy.

And in Luke we see a call to holiness:Luke 1:74 That being delivered from the hand of our enemies, we may serve him without fear:75 In holiness and justice before him, all our days.

JoeT

No, because if you must do something or your do not receive something in return, that is "earning" it. If you say that works are essential to be saved, then you are saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient and that man's works can fill that gap.

Well, then, by your reasoning we "earn" salvation by having faith since, as you yourself have said, we do not receive salvation unless we have faith (quid pro quo).

De Maria,

Tell me one person other than Jesus who has been perfectly obedient (Rom 3:23), keeping in mind that partial obedience is not an option if you seek to use works for salvation (James 2:10).

Rm.3.23: Right, all have sinned and so all require grace. Haven't I said this all along?
James 2.10: Here again you are failing to observe the facts that there are works apart from the Mosaic Law. James in this verse is talking about the Law, the Law of the Pentateuch. He's not talking about all works of any kind. So it doesn't speak to the point you wish to make.

Why? What does that have to do with the FACT that Scripture says that Jesus will save those who obey Him?

Because if you are relating that to your works, then you must obey perfectly. There is a difference here. Those who believe in the Biblical gospel depend upon obedience to the gospel for salvation and the fact that Jesus sacrifice on the cross pays the full price with no works from us required.

Those who hold to the works gospel believe that the works of obedience are required, which places you back under the law. Once you believe that it is YOU paying even part through your works, you are back under the law and must obey perfectly.

Tell us then why does Peter exhort us to holiness in life trhough obedience in the first book of Peter chapter 1? 1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy.

Whose holiness is it? Ours or His?

Well, then, by your reasoning we "earn" salvation by having faith since, as you yourself have said, we do not receive salvation unless we have faith (quid pro quo).


We receive our faith from God.

Rm.3.23: Right, all have sinned and so all require grace. Haven't I said this all along?

But you say that grace will only pay paart of it, because works are also required.


James 2.10: Here again you are failing to observe the facts that there are works apart from the Mosaic Law. James in this verse is talking about the Law, the Law of the Pentateuch. He's not talking about all works of any kind. So it doesn't speak to the point you wish to make.

We've been through that - like I said, you like repetition. Nothing here limits this to the Mosaic law.

Reality is that we fail with the flesh body, but just as that is a reality of life, so is God and His desires for our love and thankfulness a Higher Reality in Free Will.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

It is written that we are to not to be ignorance in knowing, that all was done in ensample for us. Knowing that we are to please God in obedience and thankfulness. Showing in our own walk to follow, the glory unto all that was given to us. The ensample was that they all did drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.(1 Cr 10:4 ) Yet remember that God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. ( 1 Cr 10:5)

1 Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1 Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

1 Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

1 Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

( Tts 2:9 exhort in obedience )

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:14 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? {{{{God forbid.}}}}

Romans 6:15 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:16 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1 Kings 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

Free Will to follow Christ. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. The rich man can be any man that have taken the wrong path. The retirement that comes, after a preacher has taught the wrong lesson and God reveals the Spiritual Truth.Can the preacher then give up that retirement, and what he led as a good life, to then follow the righteous path that God revealed ? Or will that preacher continue on his own pride, and try to justify what he has done by saying it is forgiveable?

But you say that grace will only pay paart of it, because works are also required.

It is required that you respond to grace, yes.

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

2 Corinthians 6:1
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Sincerely,

De Maria

We receive our faith from God.

Has anyone doubted that?

But if we don't exercise our God given faith, are we saved?

The case is the same with works. God works through us. But if we don't permit Him to work through us, we receive His grace in vain:

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

But you say that grace will only pay paart of it, because works are also required.



We've been through that - like I said, you like repetition. Nothing here limits this to the Mosaic law.

Let's say you give your daughter a bicycle for her birthday. You give her the bike, teach her to ride it, and tell her that she isn't to ride it in the street, she isn't to venture beyond a boundary which you delimit for her, she's to bring it into the garage when she's done riding it, etc. You tell her that she has to take care of the bike and you show her how. In time you find that she's riding in the street, exceeding the boundaries you assigned, leaving the bike out in the rain and snow. So, finally, you take the bike away from her.

Now it looks to me like the gift had not been earned: It was freely given; you didn't offer it to her in repayment for any work she had done. (Christ's incarnation, death, and resurrection was gratuitous; his gift of grace is gratuitous.) But, by her actions, she lost the gift, it was removed from her on account of what she had done, the way she acted in the light of that gift. Similarly here: Our works do not earn us the gift of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. But this isn't to say that they aren't necessary for the eternal salvation of our souls. The gift that has been offered can be lost if, by our actions, we reject it.

Akoue,

Yes well when you kick her out of your family for riding the bike in the street... then let me know. LOL.. not the same at all.

He paid the price.. we accept or reject it. AND by the way, we are SEALED with the HOLY SPIRIT of promise. SEALED is SEALED. He said he would NEver no NEVER no not EVER leave us for forsake us. Never means just that. You say well you left him.. and I submit to you... Jesus said... I will NEVER leave you. There is no condition. No strings attached. IT IS FINISHED!!

We've been through that - like I said, you like repetition. Nothing here limits this to the Mosaic law.

Repetition is an invaluable instructional tool, yes.

You say that nothing "limits" it to the Mosaic law? Does anything said here explicitly extend it beyond the Mosaic Law? What law might it be talking about? Any law at all? Like the law to love one another? Christ explicitly offers this as A LAW (the Gospel calls it that).

There is no condition. no strings attached. IT IS FINISHED!!!!

So then I don't need faith either? (That's a string.)

Because if you are relating that to your works, then you must obey perfectly.

The Blood of the Covenant enables us to obey perfectly:

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

To do His Will is to obey.


There is a difference here. Those who believe in the Biblical gospel depend upon obedience to the gospel for salvation and the fact that Jesus sacrifice on the cross pays the full price with no works from us required.

That is a false Gospel.

The true Gospel, which is taught in the Bible, expects us to work in response to the Grace of God in us.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


Those who hold to the works gospel believe that the works of obedience are required, which places you back under the law. Once you believe that it is YOU paying even part through your works, you are back under the law and must obey perfectly.

That's your gospel. We simply obey God. God can never be repayed.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

As for us and our Catholic Family, we will serve the Lord.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


I just want to call special attention to this verse.

So then I don't need faith either? (That's a string.)

THE WORK is finished. He finished THE WORK on the cross. Faith plus NUTTIN. THAT is what you need.

THE WORK is finished. He finished THE WORK on the cross. Faith plus NUTTIN. THAT is what you need.

He finished HIS work on the Cross.

Akoue,

He finished THE ONLY WORK.. the ONLY sacrifice, the ONLY beggotten son... the ONLY lamb... LOL... we can fight all night if you want to. ;)

Akoue,

He finished THE ONLY WORK..the ONLY sacrifice, the ONLY beggotten son...the ONLY lamb...LOL....we can fight all night if ya wanna. ;)

No, classyT, I don't want to fight. I just wish that someone who thinks it's completely obvious that faith alone saves would take the time to go through all the Scripture De Maria and I have cited and explain to me why it's stupid to think otherwise. I'm not trying to challenge you--I'm not saying it has to be you. It's just that James 2 (to name just one of the VERY many passages that have been offered now) sure seems to say that works are required in order to have a living faith. And I can't seem to get anyone to explain to me how I'm wrong to read it that way.

I've been told that this has been explained to me, but I've read through this thread now more than once and I can't seem to find any posts that take what I've said about Scripture and explains clearly to me what I've done wrong. So, in the absence of that, slogans don't carry much water with me.

DeMaria:

What does “indwelling” mean? Where does it come from in Scripture? And finally, how does it correspond to our Catholic faith? Is this connected to “once saved always saved” theology? Is it connected to predestination? Do you have to be indwelled before you are saved? I'm really lost on this one – to me it's as foreign as a Yankee in cotton pick'en season.

JoeT

Indwelling is after you are saved you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit and many people get spiritual wisdom, discernment and things like that. They can feel the Holy Spirit 'living' within them.
That is partly why Christians have the confidence to say they are going to heaven.

Indwelling is after you are saved you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit and many people get spiritual wisdom, discernment and things like that. They can feel the Holy Spirit 'living' within them.
That is partly why Christians have the confidence to say they are going to heaven.

And where does this come from in Scripture?

All through Acts for one.
But throughout the New Testament

DeMaria:

What does “indwelling” mean? Where does it come from in Scripture? And finally, how does it correspond to our Catholic faith?

Its not Catholic terminology, but it is Catholic Teaching. It means that the we received the Holy Spirit in Baptism

Acts Of Apostles 2 38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

and the Holy Spirit remains with us:

1 Corinthians 6 19 Or know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God; and you are not your own?

I hope that answers those three questions.


Is this connected to “once saved always saved” theology?

I think so. In my opinion, it is quite a reasonable misunderstanding. Who would dream that someone in whom the Holy Spirit dwells could commit sin and fall away?

However, the "once saved always saved" theology confuses me as well. How is one saved then unsaved? How were they saved at all if they wound up in hell anyway?


Is it connected to predestination?

Yes. Those predestined are they who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is also why they are considered saved.


Do you have to be indwelled before you are saved?

Yes. That is why many Protestants don't consider "water" baptism necessary. And that is why they frequently use the example of the just Cornelius in Acts 10, who received the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.

They jump to the conclusion that means that he was saved BEFORE baptism. But the Scripture doesn't say that at all.


I’m really lost on this one – to me it’s as foreign as a Yankee in cotton pick’en season.

As Elizabeth Bennet once said: Perhaps you should take your aunt's advice and practice?. ;)

I can't believe I just said that. Can you tell I have two daughters? I guess they've got Dad wrapped around their little finger.

Sincerely,

De Maria

All through Acts for one.
But throughout the New Testament

“Dwell” is used 241 times in the Douay-Rheims. I only found two references to dwelling in, defining a possession of sorts. The others all referred to a place of habitat.

Romans 8: 8 And they who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, but the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Wisdom 1: 4 For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins. 5 For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee from the deceitful, and will withdraw himself from thoughts that are without understanding, and he shall not abide when iniquity cometh in.

Wisdom seems to indicate that you must be holy before indwelling takes place. So how do you become holy without the Holy Spirit?

Now you've really confused me!

If indwelling comes after one is saved where is the motivating force to become possessed by the Holy Spirit? And, if you are indwelled, does this negate the will? The only grantee of redemption is stated in John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. Does indwelling supersede Christ’s promise, and if so where is it in Scripture?

JoeT

Indwelling is after you are saved you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit and many people get spiritual wisdom, discernment and things like that. They can feel the Holy Spirit 'living' within them.
That is partly why Christians have the confidence to say they are going to heaven.

So indwelling is a feeling? That's it? A psychological state? And what lets me know that it is the Holy Spirit and not Satan presenting himself as "an angel of light"?

I guess they've got Dad wrapped around their little finger.


All right, now I have to apologize for using the feminine pronoun when referring to you on earlier posts. Oops.

Its not Catholic terminology, but it is Catholic Teaching. It means that the we received the Holy Spirit in Baptism

Acts Of Apostles 2 38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

and the Holy Spirit remains with us:

1 Corinthians 6 19 Or know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God; and you are not your own?

I hope that answers those three questions.



I think so. In my opinion, it is quite a reasonable misunderstanding. Who would dream that someone in whom the Holy Spirit dwells could commit sin and fall away?

However, the "once saved always saved" theology confuses me as well. How is one saved then unsaved? How were they saved at all if they wound up in hell anyway?



Yes. Those predestined are they who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is also why they are considered saved.



Yes. That is why many Protestants don't consider "water" baptism necessary. And that is why they frequently use the example of the just Cornelius in Acts 10, who received the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.

They jump to the conclusion that means that he was saved BEFORE baptism. But the Scripture doesn't say that at all.



As Elizabeth Bennet once said: Perhaps you should take your aunt's advice and practice? ...;)

I can't believe I just said that. Can you tell I have two daughters? I guess they've got Dad wrapped around their little finger.

Sincerely,

De Maria


Ok, I get it now.

Ok, Ok, I can take a hint too! Sometimes.

JoeT

Its not Catholic terminology, but it is Catholic Teaching. It means that the we received the Holy Spirit in Baptism


That's fine, but that doesn't appear to me to be the way they've been using it (although, in the absence of any careful definition its hard to pin their usage down). It looked to me at times like a grab-bag notion without clear boundaries. I don't wish to quarrel with you, but I'm not so sure that what they have in mind is in fact quite in line with Catholic teaching (although I'll defer since, as I say, I can't get a clear sense from the uses to which its been put what a definition of the view would look like... and I don't think it's entirely my fault).

“
Wisdom seems to indicate that you must be holy before indwelling takes place. So how do you become holy without the Holy Spirit?

Now you've really confused me!


Me too.

Is it connected with the once saved always saved?
They do believe in the indwelling but it is also believed by other Christian groups that do not believe in once saved always saved.

That's fine, but that doesn't appear to me to be the way they've been using it (although, in the absence of any careful definition its hard to pin their usage down). It looked to me at times like a grab-bag notion without clear boundaries. I don't wish to quarrel with you, but I'm not so sure that what they have in mind is in fact quite in line with Catholic teaching (although I'll defer since, as I say, I can't get a clear sense from the uses to which its been put what a definition of the view would look like... and I don't think it's entirely my fault).

You aren't wrong.

When I said the idea is Catholic Teaching, I meant the bare minimum idea that we receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism and that the Holy Spirit remains (dwells) in us.

However, the other assumptions that they add to that belief are as varied as their denominations (see Nohelp4u's reply above) and most of those are definitely opposed to Catholic Teaching.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Ok, I get it now.

Ok, Ok, I can take a hint too! Sometimes.

JoeT

Time for a quiz?

De Maria, N0help,

Many thanks. That helps. I was thrown by all the accretions and suppressed premises, but now I get a better sense what the view is at least supposed to look like in a general way.

The Blood of the Covenant enables us to obey perfectly:

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

To do His Will is to obey.

But scripture is clear - you have not and you cannot. Further scripture says anyone who claims to have done so, other than Jesus Himself is a liar. So your gospel is a gospel that condemns all to hell by making impossible demands.

Whereas the gospel of the Bible is one that commands us to obey, but recognizes that we fail and Jesus blood covers all our unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I don't like your gospel. I'll stick with the Bible.

No, classyT, I don't want to fight. I just wish that someone who thinks it's completely obvious that faith alone saves would take the time to go through all the Scripture De Maria and I have cited and explain to me why it's stupid to think otherwise.

After hundreds of posts and showing you what scripture says, clearly that has been done.

BTW, it is not stupid to believe otherwise. Unlike you, I don't call people names like "goofus" and "stupid". I address the doctrine, which in the case it is unscriptural to believe in a gospel of works.

But scripture is clear - you have not and you cannot. Further scripture says anyone who claims to have done so, other than Jesus Himself is a liar. So your gospel is a gospel that condemns all to hell by making impossible demands.

Whereas the gospel of the Bible is one that commands us to obey, but recognizes that we fail and Jesus blood covers all our unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I don't like your gospel. I'll stick with the Bible.

This is the Bible:

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Sincerely,

De Maria

After hundreds of posts and showing you what scripture says, clearly that has been done.

BTW, it is not stupid to believe otherwise. Unlike you, I don't call people names like "goofus" and "stupid". I address the doctrine, which in the case it is unscriptural to believe in a gospel of works.

We don't believe in a Gospel of works.

We believe we are saved by grace through faith.
And we believe we are justified by faith perfected and expressed in good works.

That is in Scripture. Faith alone is only found once in Scripture.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Sincerely,

De Maria

But scripture is clear - you have not and you cannot. Further scripture says anyone who claims to have done so, other than Jesus Himself is a liar. So your gospel is a gospel that condemns all to hell by making impossible demands.

Whereas the gospel of the Bible is one that commands us to obey, but recognizes that we fail and Jesus blood covers all our unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I don't like your gospel. I'll stick with the Bible.

Have not and cannot what? Obey? Why then did Christ give us a law (nomos) to love one another? He didn't appear to regard that as an impossible demand.

OK...
How about this.
Must a person be forgiven to be saved?
I believe so because the bible says so.
Now a person who has been property baptized with the Holy Spirit dwelling within who gets into a situation where he or she can not and will not forgive others.
Jesus tells us that a person who does not forgive others will not be forgiven.
Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours; 15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will NOT forgive your failings either.
In the prayer He taught us we do pray in accord with that, "Forgive us our sins AS WE forgive those who sin against us."
It seems to be that that baptized person who may have onece been saved tosses it away by not forgiving others.
That is just one example of many that I have been taught where a person CAN lose their salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

OK...
How about this.
Must a person be forgiven to be saved?
I believe so because the bible says so.
Now a person who has been property baptized with the Holy Spirit dwelling within who gets into a situation where he or she can not and will not forgive others.
Jesus tells us that a person who does not forgive others will not be forgiven.
Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours; 15. but if you do not forgive others, your Father will NOT forgive your failings either.
In the prayer He taught us we do pray in accord with that, "Forgive us our sins AS WE forgive those who sin against us."
It seems to be that that baptized person who may have onece been saved tosses it away by not forgiving others.
That is just one example of many that I have been taught where a person CAN lose their salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

This is helpful. Salvation isn't something *I possess*. It isn't my property irrespective of the life I lead.

I equate "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit after being baptized to be that the Holy Spirit abides within us.
That is with the old meaning that abides means lives or stays.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

This is the Bible:

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Our righteousness can only come through Christ when His righteousness is imputed to us. It is the Holy Spirit indwelling us that does that work. You know the Holy Spirit that scripture says cannot indwell the unsaved?

We don't believe in a Gospel of works.

Then why are you spending so much time arguing in favour of a works gospel?

Have not and cannot what? Obey? Why then did Christ give us a law (nomos) to love one another? He didn't appear to regard that as an impossible demand.

Are you saying that you have obeyed God's law perfectly?

Then why are you spending so much time arguing in favour of a works gospel?

That is how you characterize it. It's the strawman you build so that you can knock it down. But it isn't what we believe. We believe in faith and works:

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Are you saying that you have obeyed God's law perfectly?

I have already disavowed the perfection requirement. It's Gnostic. But perfection and perfectibility aren't the same thing, of course. In any case, to require works is not eo ipso to require perfection in works. No Catholic, as I've said, would hold that I can win my salvation on the strength of works alone. You have taken that to mean that works aren't necessary--on the strength of the fact that they aren't sufficient. But, as I've repeatedly said, the Catholic-Orthodox view is that works are necessary but not sufficient conditions for salvation.

I'm not sure I see why you're convinced that to require works is to require perfection in works.

Our righteousness can only come through Christ when His righteousness is imputed to us. It is the Holy Spirit indwelling us that does that work. You know the Holy Spirit that scripture says cannot indwell the unsaved?

I don't see the word "unsaved" anywhere in the Bible?

Are you saying that you have obeyed God's law perfectly?


You didn't answer my question, so I'll rephrase it: Why did Christ give it as a law (nomos) that we are to love one another? Was this just advice? If so, why is it said to be a law (nomos)?

Are you saying that you have obeyed God's law perfectly?

That is God's to judge. We simply obey. That is God's will.

This is the Bible:

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Sincerely,

De Maria

But scripture is clear - you have not and you cannot. Further scripture says anyone who claims to have done so, other than Jesus Himself is a liar. So your gospel is a gospel that condemns all to hell by making impossible demands.

Whereas the gospel of the Bible is one that commands us to obey, but recognizes that we fail and Jesus blood covers all our unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I don't like your gospel. I'll stick with the Bible.

Are you claiming to perfectly obey God's law?

That is God's to judge. We simply obey. That is God's will.

Slippery answer. But that does not do it. Scripture says that if you claim that you have, you are a liar.

Is the Bible wrong?

Are you saying that you have obeyed God's law perfectly?

I wonder why you want to induce us to judge before the time, while Scripture is clear:

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

You didn't answer my question, so I'll rephrase it: Why did Christ give it as a law (nomos) that we are to love one another? Was this just advice? If so, why is it said to be a law (nomos)?

It along with all other laws are commands to be obeyed. Have you obeyed them all?

Slippery answer. But that does not do it. Scripture says that if you claim that you have, you are a liar.

Is the Bible wrong?

We don't claim that we have. That is God's to judge. Why do you want to induce us to grasp judgement away from God.

God is the Just Judge. I leave it all to His Divine Mercy.

Further scripture says anyone who claims to have done so, other than Jesus Himself is a liar.

So I had better not *claim* to. No boasting allowed (see Eph.2.8-9).

I wonder why you want to induce us to judge before the time, while Scripture is clear:

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Ah so you don't want to answer. Even though the answer regarding YOU and every other person is given in scripture. So by not answering, you are denying scripture, by leaving it open that you might have obeyed perfectly.

So I had better not *claim* to. No boasting allowed (see Eph.2.8-9).

Then either obedience is not a requirement for salvation or you are on your way to hell.

It along with all other laws are commands to be obeyed. Have you obeyed them all?

Whether we obeyed them all is God's to judge. Why do you insist that we grasp judgement away from God. We prefer to wait for His Judgement. Don't you?

Then either obedience is not a requirement for salvation or you are on your way to hell.

That's a non sequitur.

Ah so you don't want to answer. Even though the answer regarding YOU and every other person is given in scripture. So by not answering, you are denying scripture, by leaving it open that you might have obeyed perfectly.

I'm glad you aren't my Judge.

1 Corinthians 4: 3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

If you were, I'd be condemned already. But your judgement of me is of little concern to me. I'll await Jesus' Judgement.

Then either obedience is not a requirement for salvation or you are on your way to hell.

Are you everyone's judge now? You aren't satisfied with judging yourself, now you want to send everyone who doesn't agree with you to hell?

This is the Bible:

Hebrews 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Hey, if you want to copy and paste over and over, I can do that too.

But scripture is clear - you have not and you cannot. Further scripture says anyone who claims to have done so, other than Jesus Himself is a liar. So your gospel is a gospel that condemns all to hell by making impossible demands.

Whereas the gospel of the Bible is one that commands us to obey, but recognizes that we fail and Jesus blood covers all our unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I don't like your gospel. I'll stick with the Bible.

Are you everyone's judge now? You aren't satisfied with judging yourself, now you want to send everyone who doesn't agree with you to hell?

This is what the Bible says:

1 John 1:9-10
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I'm glad you aren't my Judge.

1 Corinthians 4: 3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

If you were, I'd be condemned already. But your judgement of me is of little concern to me. I'll await Jesus' Judgement.

1 John 1:9-10
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

1 John 1:9-10
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

It doesn't follow from this that works of obedience aren't required.

Hey, if you want to copy and paste over and over, i can do that too.

I don't know what you're talking about.


But scripture is clear - you have not and you cannot.. .

I don't know what Scripture you're reading. But the KJV says:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And also:

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Therefore, we obey. And if you claim this is impossible, then I tell you:
Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

This is what the Bible says:

1 John 1:9-10
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I haven't heard anyone here claim they hadn't sinned. Did you?

That is how you characterize it. Its the strawman you build so that you can knock it down. But it isn't what we believe. We believe in faith and works:

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Remember what I said about faith and what it means in Greek?

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

I haven't heard anyone here claim they hadn't sinned. Did you?

Then you have not been obedient and you cannot be saved by obedience.

Remember what i said about faith and what it means in Greek?

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Um, that was debunked ages ago. I remember. I was there.

Remember what I said about faith and what it means in Greek?

When you can prove that you are fluent in Greek, I'll take into consideration what you claim the Greek means. But, you have enough trouble with English.


Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

We believe it. Scripture is without error.