The Tim LaHay's celebrated Left Behind series follow the essence of John Darby's theological beliefs of multiple 2nd comings of Christ. Theories in this vein require 3 to 5returns of Christ. Where in scripture does it talk about the 3rd or 4th “Second coming of Christ”? Of course there are also multiple versions of just how this will happen. We've got pre-tribers, post-tribers, anti-tribers, premillenialsits, amillenialists, millenialist, postmillennialists, and dispensationalist. If the Bible “interprets itself,” how then do we discern which theories are “self-evident”. I don't want to be left behind, or do I!

And, when will the 2nd coming of Christ be? No one knows! (Matt 24:36) However, we do know that it will be on the “last day” (John 6:25, 39; John 12:48; John 11:24). Not a multiple number of last days but the last "last day". Scriptures don't say the last day just before the last day, or the last period before the last day. Scripture says Christ's return will be on “THE LAST DAY.”

We do know the 2nd coming will be like the days of Noah, they (the bad guys) will be making marry up till the last day (Matt 24:36-38). In Noah's day it was those making marry until “the flood came and took them all away.” (Matt 24:39). So, it was bad guys who were taken up in Matthew's gospel. A real contradiction left by Darby- and LaHay wants to "take up" the good guys?


JoeT

The bad guys died. The ready guys had a way of escape.

We will get into all the Scripture on the subject shortly, I expect.

Joe,
First off you must realize and understand that the Left Behind series of books is totally fictional.
Second the bible does say that Jesus will return as you saw him go. In other words in the clouds. The rapture will take place that is a fact. No where does it say that Jesus will set foot back on earth until the battle of Armageddon. Which will be a very very short battle. Then he will sit in judgment of ALL people both living and those that were dead. Those found worthy will be with him forever. Those not found worthy will be cast into the lake of fire with the false profit and his cronies for 1000 years. So in summary, Jesus return to earth will happen only one time

Galveston1:


The bad guys died. The ready guys had a way of escape.
But it was the good guys that inherited the earth, good guy are the ones that established a kingdom on earth.

We will get into all the Scripture on the subject shortly, I expect.
No doubt.
************************************************** ************************
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450donn:

Joe,
First off you must realize and understand that the Left Behind series of books is totally fictional. I assumed everybody understood this. But, one of its selling points is that it is a fictional portrait based on the Darby theories.

Second the bible does say that Jesus will return as you saw him go. I wasn’t implying that, “Jesus will return as you saw him go”.


In other words in the clouds. The rapture will take place that is a fact.


Nowhere does it say that Jesus will set foot back on earth until the battle of Armageddon. Which will be a very very short battle. Then he will sit in judgment of
But it only says that Christ will return “on the last day.” Your rendition could only be scripturally correct if we hold that the battle of Armageddon and the tribulation occur on the last day.

ALL people both living and those that were dead. Those found worthy will be with him forever. Those not found worthy will be cast into the lake of fire with the false profit and his cronies for 1000 years. So in summary, Jesus return to earth will happen only one time
How do you get a thousand years?

JoeT

Please reread the book of Revelation.
Not sure about anybodies theories, but in the last book of the Bible it is pretty clear about the last days of the earth as we know it. With a great shout he(Jesus) will call his church home. This I believe will be the start of the last days. There will be a period between the rapture and the start of the tribulation. Again, how long, who knows, and I really don't care as I do not plan to be here. I believe that the signing of the peace treaty between Isreal and the rest of the world will be the actual starting point of the 7 years
On the last day Jesus and his army, the saints that were raptured, the angles and all of the heavenly hosts will return for the great final battle at Armageddon. At this time the earth will quake and all of the enemy will be defeated in the blink of an eye. Think of the mother of all nuclear bombs going off and killing millions at one time. That is how it appears in my mind. Then Jesus will establish his kingdom and all the people of the earth that ever lived will be judged. Also remember that to God a day is as a thousand years. So how long does this all take? Don't know, and as far as I am concerned it really does not matter as long as I am with my Lord. I am more worried about doing the Lords work while I am still here on earth.

I agree with what I believe you to be saying.

There is only ONE Last Day and at that time the dead in Christ will be raised from the grave with their new bodies and we who are still here on earth will be changed and meet the Lord in the air... with those who died in our past.

At that time the present heavens and earth will dissolve and our Lord will create a new heavens and earth which is no longer under God's consignment to futility/vanity. And all the saints before us, with us and those after us will dwell there in God... forever.

The other matters, such as the date, time, new bodies, features of the earth, the fate of the unbeliever, etc. are not clearly spoken of that we should make any doctrine one against another. They are just as much "shadows" as the OT Temple, sacrifices, laws, etc were shadows to the people of that time.

We have enough knowledge (which "puffs up") to have sure hope. We are told to look forward to the time and unfolding whenever God secretly chooses. And we are to spend our time in ministry to others and stay alert in our hope, faith and love as God has told to do.

Maranatha!

Please reread the book of Revelation.
Not sure about anybodies theories, but in the last book of the Bible it is pretty clear about the last days of the earth as we know it. With a great shout he(Jesus) will call his church home. This I believe will be the start of the last days. There will be a period of time between the rapture and the start of the tribulation. Again, how long, who knows, and I really don't care as I do not plan to be here. I believe that the signing of the peace treaty between Isreal and the rest of the world will be the actual starting point of the 7 years
On the last day Jesus and his army, the saints that were raptured, the angles and all of the heavenly hosts will return for the great final battle at Armageddon. At this time the earth will quake and all of the enemy will be defeated in the blink of an eye. Think of the mother of all nuclear bombs going off and killing millions at one time. That is how it appears in my mind. Then Jesus will establish his kingdom and all the people of the earth that ever lived will be judged. Also remember that to God a day is as a thousand years. So how long does this all take? Don't know, and as far as I am concerned it really does not matter...

In the Apocalypse there are only two Christ figures depicted. One of the Christ figures had already appeared in history as of the writing of the Apocalypse. This Christ figure established his Kingdom on earth. That leaves only one, just one, (or 2-1) Christ figures left to appear; the Christ that promised to appear on the last day.

There is nothing in the Apocalypse that would presuppose a linear time line?

From your response, I gather you believe the rapture will come first, then the second coming, then for the third coming, Christ will defeat satan?


as long as I am with my Lord. I am more worried about doing the Lords work while I am still here on earth.
Good. You might want to read John chapter 6.

John 6:48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world…55 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

JoeT

I agree with what I believe you to be saying.

There is only ONE Last Day and at that time the dead in Christ will be raised from the grave with their new bodies and we who are still here on earth will be changed and meet the Lord in the air ...with those who died in our past.

At that time the present heavens and earth will dissolve and our Lord will create a new heavens and earth which is no longer under God's consignment to futility/vanity. And all the saints before us, with us and those after us will dwell there in God....forever.

The other matters, such as the date, time, new bodies, features of the earth, the fate of the unbeliever, etc. are not clearly spoken of that we should make any doctrine one against another. They are just as much "shadows" as the the OT Temple, sacrifices, laws, etc were shadows to the people of that time.

We have enough knowledge (which "puffs up") to have sure hope. We are told to look forward to the time and unfolding whenever God secretly chooses. And we are to spend our time in ministry to others and stay alert in our hope, faith and love as God has told to do.

Maranatha!

Revdgrade:

Great response. I don’t think I could quibble too much. I might suggest that meeting Christ in the air is intended metaphorically for going forward to meet Christ as was the custom in that day.

JoeT

"Also remember that to God a day is as a thousand years."

I'm not sure how useful this is. When in Scripture is a day a period lasting, let's say, roughly 24 hours, and when in Scripture is a day a period lasting 1000 years? Because if a day is always a thousand years, whoa! Jesus was in Galilee A LOT longer than I thought. And it just seems discourteous of the Bible to use it one way in Revelation and another way throughout the rest of the NT--without ever letting us know that.

OK Joe, I now see where you are getting your theory about a "third" coming. . From your response, I gather you believe the rapture will come first, then the second coming, then for the third coming, Christ will defeat satan? The problem is that Christ does not land on earth at the rapture. That is a calling home of his church ( the believers) so therefore it is not really a "second coming" then. Then only second coming ( when Christ) sets foot on earth and actually takes control happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. The problem is that Christ does not land on earth at the rapture. That is a calling home of his church ( the believers) so therefore it is not really a "second coming" then. Then only second coming ( when Christ) sets foot on earth and actually takes control happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. At least that is how I understand and interpert the scriptures. But I am only a lowly layman and others of far greater knowledge who I have read feel this is how the Bible spells it out.

Donn:

OK Joe, I now see where you are getting your theory about a "third" coming. . From your response, I gather you believe the rapture will come first, then the second coming, then for the third coming, Christ will defeat satan? The problem is that Christ does not land on earth at the rapture. That is a calling home of his church ( the believers) so therefore it is not really a "second coming" then. Then only second coming ( when Christ) sets foot on earth and actually takes control happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. The problem is that Christ does not land on earth at the rapture.

Oh yeah, I see it now. Christ does a touch-and-go landing on earth’s runway right after the end of verse 1 Thess 4:16 and just before 1 Thess 4:17.

But getting serious, it would seem to me that credible support be cited if I’m to take your comments in any way other than opinion. My faith looks to an authoritative guide to be based on tradition and scripture. You’ve offered none. Consequently, I would like to challenge you to provide support for your views, either scriptural, historical or through an apostolic tradition.

I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come-and-go on his second return? Nor can the 3rd coming of Christ be located in scripture. Why because the next, and last, coming of Christ comes on THE LAST DAY. In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY.


That is a calling home of his church ( the believers) so therefore it is not really a "second coming" then. Then only second coming ( when Christ) sets foot on earth and actually takes control happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. At least that is how I understand and interpert the scriptures. But I am only a lowly layman and others of far greater knowledge who I have read feel this is how the Bible spells it out.

No He isn’t calling home His church, Christ stated quite plainly, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. (John 6: 55) Christ is calling those who “eat” his flesh, and “drinks” his blood; in other words those who are worthy to partake of the sacrament of the Eucharist are being called.

I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come and go on his second return? In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY.

There can be no 1,000-year reign because when the kingdom of the world becomes Christ’s, He begins His reign forever and ever. (Rev 11:15) Remember the dead in Christ are raised in 1 Thess 4 along with the living in Christ. And when does this occur, when death is destroyed (Cf. 1 Cor 15:23-26) which occurs on the LAST DAY. Now where, in the time line, would you suggest we place a 1,000-year reign?

JoeT

Joe,
I understand that "the Last Day" is the last day of this age which started with the Advent of the Messiah.
The age following this one is the Messianic age which will last about 1000 years.
Those are years of peace.
So IF all the good guys are raptured why are the bad guys who are left behind given a 1000 years of peace?
What did they do to earn or warrant that with the good guys having had to live through this world of wars, rapes, murders, and all the other nasty terrible things we humans have inflicted on each other.
Something is very wrong with that picture.
I firmly believe that there will be NO rapture as it is being taught.
There will be but ONE return of Jesus Christ to thus planet which includes the atmosphere with clouds, plains, mountains, meadows and much water.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Joe,
I understand that "the Last Day" is the last day of this age which started with the Advent of the Messiah.
The age following this one is the Messianic age which will last about 1000 years.
Those are years of peace.
So IF all the good guys are raptured why are the bad guys who are left behind given a 1000 years of peace?
Excellent point Fred. You snuck up on me with this one! It goes to prove my point, to rapture is to rupture Scriptures.


What did they do to earn or warrant that with the good guys having had to live through this world of wars, rapes, murders, and all the other nasty terrible things we humans have inflicted on each other.
Something is very wrong with that picture.
Which is another well made point; Christ's coming is to save those dead or alive in Him, not punish them.

JoeT

Joe,
Thanks.
I just added my 2 cents worth to your excellent post.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Joe,
Without having my bible in front of me to quite chapter and verse I have to go on memory, so lease bare with me.
"I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come and go on his second return? In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY. "
Here is a clear example of the "rapture" taking place. 1 Thessalonians is speaking about the church ( the believers) coming to meet him in the clouds. In John it is referring to the last (Judgment) day and so those non believers that are/were dead will rise at that time to be judged and cast into the lake of fire.
It is plane that we disagree on whether a rapture takes place or not Many bible scolars believe in the "rapture" of the church and that it will happen fairly soon as almost everyone is in agreement that we are in the last days. People like Grant Jefferies who have spent a life time studying bible prophesy are convinced of it and have written several good books on the subject. There are also many many famous preachers out there today that believe it. If your church does not believe and preach this subject, and you are comfortable with that, then great. Personally I find comfort in that knowledge Jesus will take his church away from the earth sometime in the future. That time will start a great calamity when millions of people simply disappear from the face of the earth. This will usher in a time of great trouble and will likely see the rise of the antichrist and the false profit to fill the void left by the churches disappearance. Personally like I do not believe that the church of Christ will be around for the tribulation. At least not as we know it today.
Bottom line I guess is that we will soon know one way or the other and on that glorious day it will not matter.

Don:

In return you'll have to forgive me for making this rather brief; I'm between meetings and only have a moment.


Joe,
Without having my bible in front of me to quite chapter and verse I have to go on memory, so lease bare with me.
"I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come and go on his second return? In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY. "
Here is a clear example of the "rapture" taking place. 1 Thessalonians is speaking about the church ( the believers) coming to meet him in the clouds. In John it is referring to the last (Judgment) day and so those non believers that are/were dead will rise at that time to be judged and cast into the lake of fire.
It is plane that we disagree on whether a rapture takes place or not Many bible scolars believe in the "rapture" of the church and that it will happen fairly soon as almost everyone is in agreement that we are in the last days. People like Grant Jefferies who have spent a life time studying bible prophesy are convinced of it and have written several good books on the subject. There are also many many famous preachers out there today that believe it. If your church does not believe and preach this subject, and you are comfortable with that, then great. Personally I find comfort in that knowledge Jesus will take his church away from the earth sometime in the future. That time will start a great calamity when millions of people simply disappear from the face of the earth. This will usher in a time of great trouble and will likely see the rise of the antichrist and the false profit to fill the void left by the churches disappearance. Personally like I do not believe that the church of Christ will be around for the tribulation. At least not as we know it today.
Bottom line I guess is that we will soon know one way or the other and on that glorious day it will not matter.
Apparently, I failed to make my point clear.1 Thess 4 calls for both the dead in Christ to rise and the living in Christ to rise. In John 6, among other things, Christ discusses what it takes for the dead in Christ to be risen (not the living). Christ specifically states in John 6:55 and John 6:35 that this will occur on the last day. Consequently, there is no room in the time line for a touch and go 2nd coming of Christ.

Many Preaches teach many things, not all of which is “right.” Putting that aside, if we hold the Scriptures to a certain standard as “the word of God” then shouldn't those things we perceive to be true based on Scripture be supported in that same Scripture. Just because it feels good doesn't make it good. Christ didn't come to make us comfortable.

JoeT

AHHHHH, I now see where you are basing your arguments.
The Rapture (http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp)
We have a fundamental difference of opinions and neither of us will convince the other.
God bless you.
Don

The second coming will be when he sets his feet down on the EARTH. The rapture is NOT the second coming. He is simply picking up his bride.

The second coming will be when he sets his feet down on the EARTH. The rapture is NOT the second coming. He is simply picking up his bride.
Ok, I’ve got to ask the same questions I asked Don. Don suggested that the 1st of the 2nd coming was a touch-and-go, so are you suggesting that your 1st of the 2nd coming is a flyby? Where does scripture allude to this?

Thus far, I haven’t seen anything but opinion.

JoeT

AHHHHH, I now see where you are basing your arguments.
The Rapture (http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp)
We have a fundamental difference of opinions and neither of us will convince the other.
God bless you.
Don


The Catholic faith does hold the "LaHaye Rapture" in a dim light. Beyond the simple misinterpretation of Scripture, the problem is that it introduces a multitude of errors. But, this isn’t simply Catholic opinion; many Protestants hold a similar view.

Obviously a Catholic can be “taken up” at the 2nd coming. But, Scripture only allows for one 2nd coming. It’s my understanding that most Catholics would find it odd to reason for a rapture to avoid tribulations. Because as Christ tells us in Matthew 16: 24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it.

JoeT

Just an aside, really...

Augustine has this remarkable thing to say about this in The City of God. Writing at a time when the great persecutions were not long past he urges his readers to admire the faith of those who will live to see the last times, to endure in faith the terrible suffering that is to come. He even suggests that their faith compares favorably to that of the martyrs. Augustine certainly took end times prophecy seriously, going so far as to lament the great trials that will be suffered by even the most faithful.

So one can take prophecy seriously here without embracing a very recent fad, namely belief in the rapture. And I am genuinely struck by how very recent all this talk about rapture is.

Akoue:


Just an aside, really...

Augustine has this remarkable thing to say about this in The City of God. Writing at a time when the great persecutions were not long past he urges his readers to admire the faith of those who will live to see the last times, to endure in faith the terrible suffering that is to come. He even suggests that their faith compares favorably to that of the martyrs. Augustine certainly took end times prophecy seriously, going so far as to lament the great trials that will be suffered by even the most faithful.

So one can take prophecy seriously here without embracing a very recent fad, namely belief in the rapture. And I am genuinely struck by how very recent all this talk about rapture is.

I understand that both Clement (?-215) and Origen (185-232) had similar views. Either way, some of Augustine’s writing seems to advance that “tribulation” may be a personal experience; not a single event experienced universally.

In the day of tribulation I have sought out God Psalm 76:2. Who are you that doest this thing? In the day of your tribulation take heed what you seek out. If a jail be the cause of tribulation, you seek to get forth from jail: if fever be the cause of tribulation, you seek health: if hunger be the cause of tribulation, you seek fulness: if losses be the cause of tribulation, you seek gain: if expatriation be the cause of tribulation, you seek the home of your flesh. And why should I name all things, or when could I name all things? Do you wish to be one leaping over? In the day of your tribulation seek out God: not through God some other thing, but out of tribulation God, that to this end God may take away tribulation, that you may without anxiety cleave unto God. In the day of my tribulation, I have sought out God: not any other thing, but God I have sought out. And how have you sought out? With my hands in the night before Him.... St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 77 (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801077.htm)

And

If I walk in the midst of tribulation, You shall revive me [Psalm 137:7]. True it is: whatsoever tribulation you are in, confess, call on Him; He frees you, He revives you....Love the other life, and you shall see that this life is tribulation… St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 138 (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801138.htm)

I’m not necessarily advancing a personal versus a universal tribulation; however it seems to me that Augustine left the door open for the idea.

JoeT

Joe,

Origen is tricky on these issues. He sometimes seems to have held the view that there are multiple falls and multiple returns to God (though some scholars, e.g. Crouzel, argue that he didn't in fact hold this view). A further complication is the fact that he argues for apokatastasis, or the view that all creation, including the devil, will ultimately be saved. This was anathematized by the Fourth Ecumenical Council in 553. (It's so hard with Origen because his principle work on this, On Principles [Peri Archon], has not fared particularly well over the years: We have all of it in a really bad Latin translation, and the Greek of some, but not all, of the really crucial bits.)

Augustine is very suspicious of the idea that we can know, or really even predict, much about the "end times". He discusses it at some length in bk.20 of the City of God, but he is tentative: He often says that we should be really careful about arrogating to ourselves a knowledge of things that Christ himself claimed not to have had ("only the Father knows").

That said, he does think that the Church is in for some rough times. His focus is on the Church--it is the Church that will suffer. And, as he makes clear, particularly in his anti-Donatist works, the Church is the communion of the faithful under the authority of the bishops, the Mystical Body with Christ as its Head. In any event, in the passage you cite, Augustine isn't talking about THE tribulation; he's just talking about plain old tribulation, the stuff each of us has to contend with.

In ch. 7 of bk. 20, Augustine does reject the 1,000 years business, stating that he also "entertained this notion at one time" but has since thought better of it. He refers to those who do hold this view a "materialists" and "millenarians". He then proceeds to explain what he thinks is really going on in Rev.20.

It's worth noting that he also says that God has been judging all along, since Adam and Eve. In other words, he takes a fairly deflationary attitude toward some of this apocalypticism.

Joe,

Origen is tricky on these issues. He sometimes seems to have held the view that there are multiple falls and multiple returns to God (though some scholars, e.g., Crouzel, argue that he didn't in fact hold this view). A futher complication is the fact that he argues for apokatastasis, or the view that all creation, including the devil, will ultimately be saved. This was anathematized by the Fourth Ecumenical Council in 553. (It's so hard with Origen because his principle work on this, On Principles [Peri Archon], has not fared particularly well over the years: We have all of it in a really bad Latin translation, and the Greek of some, but not all, of the really crucial bits.)

Augustine is very suspicious of the idea that we can know, or really even predict, much about the "end times". He discusses it at some length in bk.20 of the City of God, but he is tentative: He often says that we should be really careful about arrogating to ourselves a knowledge of things that Christ himself claimed not to have had ("only the Father knows").

That said, he does think that the Church is in for some rough times. His focus is on the Church--it is the Church that will suffer. And, as he makes clear, particularly in his anti-Donatist works, the Church is the communion of the faithful under the authority of the bishops, the Mystical Body with Christ as its Head. In any event, in the passage you cite, Augustine isn't talking about THE tribulation; he's just talking about plain old tribulation, the stuff each of us has to contend with.

In ch. 7 of bk. 20, Augustine does reject the 1,000 years business, stating that he also "entertained this notion at one time" but has since thought better of it. He refers to those who do hold this view a "materialists" and "millenarians". He then proceeds to explain what he thinks is really going on in Rev.20.

It's worth noting that he also says that God has been judging all along, since Adam and Eve. In other words, he takes a fairly deflationary attitude toward some of this apocalypticism.

Thanks, very informative. Now we know who to rely on for interpretations of the Church Fathers. Help by explaining how you made the distinction between The Trib and the everyday trib in the Augustine citations above;your views would be insightful.

JoeT

In the commentary on Psalms, Augustine is talking about what I'll call mundane adversities, the sorts of struggles I or you or anyone faces in the course of our lives. "This life is tribulation" means, right, life is hard, it's a struggle. Living hurts.

Contrast this with THE tribulation, the end-time event, global suck-fest, grand poo-bah of suffering. The former is universal--we all experience it--but also personal and, sometimes, private. The latter is not mundane, it's not run-of-the-mill "life sucks" suffering. Now this, THE tribulation, will be suffered--Augustine says--by the Church Universal. It will be dismembered by heresy (people breaking off from it), it will be persecuted, it will suffer. People will say that it's false, that it has betrayed the teachings of Christ, and they will present themselves as the true followers of Christ. But it will, of course, prevail (yea, happy ending!).

Does this help? I'm happy to try again if you'd like me to.

In the commentary on Psalms, Augustine is talking about what I'll call mundane adversities, the sorts of struggles I or you or anyone faces in the course of our lives. "This life is tribulation" means, right, life is hard, it's a struggle. Living hurts.

Contrast this with THE tribulation, the end-time event, global suck-fest, grand poo-bah of suffering. The former is universal--we all experience it--but also personal and, sometimes, private. The latter is not mundane, it's not run-of-the-mill "life sucks" suffering. Now this, THE tribulation, will be suffered--Augustine says--by the Church Universal. It will be dismembered by heresy (people breaking off from it), it will be persecuted, it will suffer. People will say that it's false, that it has betrayed the teachings of Christ, and they will present themselves as the true followers of Christ. But it will, of course, prevail (yea, happy ending!).

Does this help? I'm happy to try again if you'd like me to.

This works, very cleverly said!

JoeT

Those preachers who tell the world that the last day is soon are NOT paying attention to what Scripture says.
Jesus tells us clearly that He will return when the world least expects it.
More people today expect it than ever before manly because of the rapture teaching and preaching.
I don't expect ANY return of Christ for at least 100 years, probably more.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Just a note to add. The scripture state the saints will rule and reign with Christ. Who are they going to rule and reign over if all others are cast immediately into the lake of fire? Doesn't this envelop the 1000 year reign? What are your thoughts

just a note to add. the scripture state the saints will rule and reign with Christ. who are they going to rule and reign over if all others are cast immediately into the lake of fire? doesn't this envelop the 1000 year reign? what are your thoughts

There will be many that will be saved during the tribulation period. Not everyone is sent to hell.

just a note to add. the scripture state the saints will rule and reign with Christ. who are they going to rule and reign over if all others are cast immediately into the lake of fire? doesn't this envelop the 1000 year reign? what are your thoughts

Simple and accurate!

Those preachers who tell the world that the last day is soon are NOT paying attention to what Scripture says.
Jesus tells us clearly that He will return when the world least expects it.
More people today expect it than ever before manly because of the rapture teaching and preaching.
I don't expect ANY return of Christ for at least 100 years, probably more.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

The world laughs at the thought of a rapture or the return of Christ. I don't know why you think the world expects it. They may have HEARD it but they are NOT expecting it. YOU are a Chrstian and you aren't expecting it. The Lord is coming back as a thief in the night but that isn't for the believers... that is for the world. Check out the world... in what way are they behaving would make you think for a second that they are expecting ANYTHING?

Fred
As you correctly wrote ,Jesus tells us clearly that He will return when the world least expects it.
It is the world that is not expecting Him.
All those who are His , are not of the world!
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Please don't take this message like it is anything more than simply testing and studying the Scriptures.
As long as you are willing to discuss and get somewhere with this I will be here with you, but if this is somehow making you feel uncomfortable, I will not scandalize you.

Ok, I’ve got to ask the same questions I asked Don. Don suggested that the 1st of the 2nd coming was a touch-and-go, so are you suggesting that your 1st of the 2nd coming is a flyby? Where does scripture allude to this?

Thus far, I haven’t seen anything but opinion.

JoeT

You are making quite a thing of this aren't you? It is fairly simple stuff if you were to get your head out of a one church mentality and listen to other faiths for a bit to see how the scriptures are interperte their. No one church or faith is 100% correct in how they understand the scriptures. I sit under the teachings of one denomination, but I am not exclusive to that denominations teachings. I will listen to any preacher that teaches the word of God and not some far out theology from man. Sitting under one theology for too long can brain wash a person into believing that that is the only way and that all others are false.

Ok, I’ve got to ask the same questions I asked Don. Don suggested that the 1st of the 2nd coming was a touch-and-go, so are you suggesting that your 1st of the 2nd coming is a flyby? Where does scripture allude to this?

Thus far, I haven’t seen anything but opinion.

JoeT

I'll get the scriptures for you.. right now I am not at home.

margar,
The fact is the left behind are will be the living. It is the dead in Christ that will rise.
That is what I believe,
Fred

Don:

I'm glad you didn't drop off.


You are making quite a thing of this aren't you? It is fairly simple stuff if you were to get your head out of a one church mentality and listen to other faiths for a bit to see how the scriptures are interperte their. No one church or faith is 100% correct in how they understand the scriptures. I sit under the teachings of one denomination, but I am not exclusive to that denominations teachings. I will listen to any preacher that teaches the word of God and not some far out theology from man. Sitting under one theology for too long can brain wash a person into believing that that is the only way and that all others are false.

In your past response you seemed to indicate that you were going to “hang-up” (my words, not yours). I’m glad you didn’t.

It is important to understand that there can only be one truth, one absolute truth in God. For me, to hold a synthesized faith based on my own will, my own desire is liberal theology. The result is an autonomous pre-determined faith based on my subjective will, not the will of God. Instead, I find inductive reasoning that weigh actions on traditional Catholic morals to be instructive and informative as well as a grace from God. Therefore, what may seem to you to be unyielding intolerance for other views is in fact orthodoxy in faith. We do know that “disorder in the intellect begets disorder in the heart, and vice-versa,” the converse will be rewarded in faith.

To know truth is to know God. (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/what-truth-277387-25.html#post1376851) Ultimately, logic leads to the Scriptural evidence that the Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ, God's Kingdom; right-reasoning requires conformity to it’s authority to teach. Therefore, once again what appears to you as rigidness is in fact a search for truth within the halls of God’s Kingdom. (see link)

In the case of the Darby's rapture theories I’m not constrained, except that the assertion must be in harmony with Scripture and Apostolic Tradition. In so doing I’ve come to the conclusion (without the benefit of "brainwashing") that Darby is wrong.

Could your assertion of intolerance be because I’m Catholic and can’t come to that conclusion without being “brainwashed”? Or is it that, at least in this small issue, you fear that a Catholic may be right? Is it the Catholic Church you dislike or is it my idea that Darby’s theories can’t be right that you dislike? I’m still willing to debate my position with you and the others and I can assure you my responses will be orthodox.

My question to you is why would anyone pollute the intellect with “far out theology from man” and yet be unwilling to listen to Catholic truth? Are you really looking for truth or just some feel-good-fairy-tale-so-you-can-sleep-at-night sort of thing?

JoeT

Didn't drop off. I just find it pointless to discuss this further at this time. Since we have different opinions of what the word of God says. You believe that you are right and so do I. We will one day in the not to distant future see which is correct.

Didn't drop off. I just find it pointless to discuss this further at this time. Since we have different opinions of what the word of God says. You believe that you are right and so do I. We will one day in the not to distant future see which is correct.

So you know the time and place? How do you know it will be "the not to distant future?" That's what they said in Paul's day.

JoeT

We will all know the truth some day.
Some sooner than others.
But I believe that those who wait for the last day of this age have a long wait of at least 100 years.
Fred

So, you are insisting on dragging me into this again.
If you were to listen to any of the well known bible scholars today they almost to a person believe that we are in the end times. Almost all of the propheticies have been fulfilled. Especially the one concerning Isreal becoming a nation in a day. Most from reading and studying the scriptures believe that the generation that saw Isreal's rebirth as a nation will not pass from this earth before the return of Christ.
Again, you can choose to believe or not believe, that is your right as a free thinking individual. Personally I and most evangelical Christians do believe this.
The restraining force on the earth right now against the works of satan is the Church. When the church is taken away from the earth, that will be the time that satan will gain total control of the earth for his rein od descruction as foretold in Revelations.
Sorry, this is the end of the discission for me.

So, you are insisting on dragging me into this again.

Kicking and screaming if need be.

But, I don’t understand what’s compelling you to respond, obviously you don’t have to?

It'll have to wait, I've got another meeting to go to, so I'll write more later.

JoeT

We will all know the truth some day.
Some sooner than others.
But I believe that those who wait for the last day of this age have a long wait of at least 100 years.
Fred


I don't understand Fred, where did a 100-years come from? Why not 50-years? Why not 5,000-years?

JoeT

450donn,
Yes, I believe we are in the end of times and have been for 2000 years.
As I said previously the last day of this age is sooner than they were 2000 years ago.
God works in His time not ours.
But I do believe that we will have to wait at least 100 years for the last day to come along because far to many people expect it to happen in the next FEW years.
Most Christian DO NOT believe in the rapture.
A few million do.
Compare that to 2 billion Christians.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The Scriptures cannot be broken.

John 10:35
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
(KJV)

1Thes 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

The resurrected righteous dead along with the changed righteous living will rise to meet Jesus in the air

II Th 2:7-8
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(KJV)

The restraining force that has up to this point kept Anti-Christ from coming to power is the Holy Spirit filled Church. (No one on these threads has offered any evidence contrary to this view so far)

Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)

When Jesus actually returns to earth, His saints will be with Him. That means they had to have previously been called to Him.
This will be at the end of the Great Tribulation and will be Armegeddon.

Rev 20:2-5
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The Saints of the ages will reign with Christ over a world repopulated by those survivors of the Great Tribulation.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(KJV)

Rev 20:10-15
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

Here are the wicked of all ages. It is their time of judgment.

After this comes the New Heavens and New Earth, and I think, New Jerusalem.

So, you are insisting on dragging me into this again.
If you were to listen to any of the well known bible scholars today they almost to a person believe that we are in the end times. Almost all of the propheticies have been fulfilled. Especially the one concerning Isreal becoming a nation in a day. Most from reading and studying the scriptures believe that the generation that saw Isreal's rebirth as a nation will not pass from this earth before the return of Christ.
Whether there is a time of tribulation is a matter of biblical prophecy. I'm not arguing that the prophecy is in error. Rather the interpretation by Darby that there will be “rapture” prior to the time of tribulation, later picked up by Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye. When we look at the origins of pre-tribulation rapture we don't find John Nelson Darby, rather Margaret MacDonald a 14-year old, in a visionary séance in 1830. (Cf. Dave MacPherson, The Rapture Plot) This is not condition I would call conducive to being filled with the Holy Spirit.

But this hasn't stopped unconstrained thinkers from predicting failed pre-trib rapture.

• 1844 - William Miller predicted Christ would return between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844, then revised his prediction, claiming to have miscalculated Scripture, to October 22, 1844. Miller's theology gave rise to the Advent movement.
• 1977 - William M. Branham predicted that the Rapture would take place in 1977.
• 1981 - Chuck Smith undogmatically predicted that Jesus would likely return by 1981.
• 1988 - Publication of 88 Reasons the Rapture is in 1988, by Edgar C. Whisenant.
• 1989 - Publication of The final shout: Rapture report 1989, by Edgar Whisenant. More predictions by this author appeared for 1992, 1995, and other years.
• 1992 - Korean group "Mission for the Coming Days" predicted October 28, 1992 as the date for the rapture.[22]
• 1993 - Seven years before the year 2000. The rapture would have to start to allow for seven years of the Tribulation before the Return in 2000. Multiple predictions.
• 1994 - Pastor John Hinkle of Christ Church in Los Angeles predicted June 9, 1994. Radio evangelist Harold Camping predicted September 27, 1994.

Wouldn't you think such a profound theological doctrine would produce better results than these?

( Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture) )


Again, you can choose to believe or not believe, that is your right as a free thinking individual. Personally I and most evangelical Christians do believe this.
What authority assures you that what you believe is right?

The restraining force on the earth right now against the works of satan is the Church. When the church is taken away from the earth, that will be the time that satan will gain total control of the earth for his reign of destruction as foretold in Revelations.
Yes as foretold in Revelation, not in Left Behind.

JoeT

Galveston1,
So just using the Scripture passages you have chosen the dead in Christ will be taken, the alive will be taken up into the clouds, and the evil sent to hell.
So there will be no one left on earth to celebrate the 1000 years of peace.
After which Satan will be turned loose for awhile to cause problems for no one.
Interesting.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Galveston1, et al:


The Scriptures cannot be broken.

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; (KJV)
True, scripture cannot be broken; but scriptural exegesis (the interpretation of scripture) can be ruptured.

1Thes 4:15-18 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (KJV)
The resurrected righteous dead along with the changed righteous living will rise to meet Jesus in the air

These verses in Paul’s first Epistle are to quail an argument among followers in the synagogue of a provincial capital of Macedonia, Thessalonike (Cf. Acts 17:2). The argument is over who will go first at the second coming of Christ; those who have already died in Christ and those who will be alive in Christ at the time of the second coming. Christ will return to earth in a great fan fair and the DEAD will rise first. Then the living shall go out to meet Christ as he returns to his Kingdom on earth.

This scripture requires that “the dead in Christ shall rise first.” First comes before second, usually. So, let’s see what it takes for the dead in Christ to rise. To be risen first we hear Christ’s words, “Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.” And, you must be of Christ. Which we hear Christ pulling us into his Kingdom, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.” (John 6:55) So, we see that the living don’t catch up with Christ until after the dead on the last day when Christ comes to re-claim his Kingdom?


II Th 2:7-8 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (KJV)

The restraining force that has up to this point kept Anti-Christ from coming to power is the Holy Spirit filled Church. (No one on these threads has offered any evidence contrary to this view so far)

How does this support 2 or 3 second comings? I don’t understand.

Jude 1:14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)

When Jesus actually returns to earth, His saints will be with Him. That means they had to have previously been called to Him.

This will be at the end of the Great Tribulation and will be Armegeddon.
There is no support for a 2nd 2nd coming here. How does this show Christ doing a touch-and-go on his first of 2nd comings and a hard landing on the 2nd of 2nd comings?


Rev 20:2-5 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (KJV)

The Saints of the ages will reign with Christ over a world repopulated by those survivors of the Great Tribulation. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Where do we get, “repopulated by survivors” ? Where is a second coming of Christ? Read it again. We see a spiritual battle where Satan is bound for a long period; during that period we see the beheaded martyrs (priests of God and Christ) risen, no longer threatened with a second death during that long period. These priests are in heaven. Then we see a second RESURRECTION. Not a second coming of Christ.



Rev 20:10-15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (KJV)

Here are the wicked of all ages. It is their time of judgment.

After this comes the New Heavens and New Earth, and I think, New Jerusalem.

Agreed, these verses depict the rising of the dead and a judgment. Now we can have the living in Christ taken up. Especially, since in the next chapter, Chapter 21, after the dead are raised, we see a new heaven and a new earth. The holy city of God is built on earth. Behold, now the living in Christ go out to meet him!

JoeT

The Scriptures cannot be broken.

John 10:35
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
(KJV)

1Thes 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

The resurrected righteous dead along with the changed righteous living will rise to meet Jesus in the air

II Th 2:7-8
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(KJV)

The restraining force that has up to this point kept Anti-Christ from coming to power is the Holy Spirit filled Church. (No one on these threads has offered any evidence contrary to this view so far)

Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)

When Jesus actually returns to earth, His saints will be with Him. That means they had to have previously been called to Him.
This will be at the end of the Great Tribulation and will be Armegeddon.

Rev 20:2-5
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The Saints of the ages will reign with Christ over a world repopulated by those survivors of the Great Tribulation.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(KJV)

Rev 20:10-15
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(KJV)

Here are the wicked of all ages. It is their time of judgment.

After this comes the New Heavens and New Earth, and I think, New Jerusalem.

Good job!

I'm a bit confused by the most recent post. How have Fred and Joe erred in their reading of the passages cited by Galveston1?

As Fred said, the upshot is, to say the least, "interesting".

JoeT777
Again I must agree with you.
There will be NO 2 0r 3 comings of Jesus Christ to this planet and the clouds are a part thereof.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Do any of you listen to john hagee, joel osteen or joyce meyers? John hagee pretty well has the last day figured out, not just by the new testament but by the old testament. Joel osteen is excellent in teaching a positive attitude and joyce meyer tells life as it is with all the complications. So lets say Christ will come back to catch his church away for those who are looking for Him . No one knows when not even Christ himself. While we are waiting lets get down to living like He is coming tomorrow. What about it? :D

We see through a glass darkly

Arcura,

The second coming is when CHRIST SETS his feet on the Mount of Olives and it splits into.. THAT is the second coming and there is NO other. The rapture is NOT the second coming. He is picking up his bride.. he is NOT coming to the EARTH. Just because YOU think a catching away would be cinsidered second coming doesn't mean it is. The second coming the WORD says ALL EYES will SEE HIM. Only his bride gets to see him in the rapture. Not the same at all. And you can debunk it. Balk at it , laugh at it... shake you head and yet... we WILL be snatched away...

classyT,
You are TRYING to squeeze in ab extra coming of Christ ti this planet.
And don't forget that mountains are often in the clouds.
Mark my words there will be no rapture as it is being preached.
The bible teaches otherwise and the rapture as it is being preached does not make sense.
Jesus in merciful and loving. No where in the bible is there any indication that He did or would snatch away the pilots of an airplane and let it crash killing all aboard.
I do not believe my kind, gentle, merciful Lord would do that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT,
You are TRYING to squeeze in ab extra coming of Christ ti this planet.
And don't forget that mountains are often in the clouds.
Mark my words there will be no rapture as it is being preached.
The bible teaches otherwise and the rapture as it is being preached does not make sense.
Jesus in merciful and loving. No where in the bible is there any indication that He did or would snatch away the pilots of an airplane and let it crash killing all aboard.
I do not believe my kind, gentle, merciful Lord would do that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Indeed! I do NOT believe my kind gentle, merciful Lord would pour his WRATH out on his BRIDE!! The Lord says that if he didn't come back there would be NO flesh left alive that is how bad it is going to get. This isn't just some serious troubles, trials.. it is HELL on earth. AND... I will leave the Lord to the details of the raputre and airplane pilots. I don't know.. if I'm not saved I suppose being killed in a crash would be a better way to go then what is coming on this earth. But again.. the Lord knows what he is doing.

FYI.. I hope you saw my comment about america and the Great Satan. You misunderstood me in the other thread.. I bleed red, white and blue... I LOVE America. :)

do any of you listen to john hagee, joel osteen or joyce meyers? john hagee pretty well has the last day figured out, not just by the new testament but by the old testament. joel osteen is excellent in teaching a positive attitude and joyce meyer tells life as it is with all the complications.

Deliberately, Never!


so lets say Christ will come back to catch his church away for those who are looking for Him . no one knows when not even Christ himself. while we are waiting lets get down to living like He is coming tomorrow. what about it? :D

Agreed – you’re preaching to the choir here.

JoeT

Joet,
Agreed.
I am also a member of that choir.
Let us sing praises to God together.
Fred

Galveston1,
So just using the Scripture passages you have chosen the dead in Christ will be taken, the alive will be taken up into the clouds, and the evil sent to hell.
So there will be no one left on earth to celebrate the 1000 years of peace.
After which Satan will be turned loose for awhile to cause problems for no one.
Interesting.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Lots of misconception here Fred, and Joel. First read it again:
1Thes 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

I know you know what "together" means.

How can you think that this passage says no one will be left on Earth? Only the redeemed will be cought up, everyone else will still be here. The devil will then have his way for the period of the Great Tribulation, after which he will be confined for 1,000 years, during which life will continue on planet Earth through those who lived through the Great Tribulation.
Then Satan will be let loose for a "short season" and will deceive the nations and lead one final assault against Christ and the redeemed and will then be cast into the Lake of Fire.

THEN will come the last resurrection which is that of the wicked dead who will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire along with the devil and his angels.

I can show you the scriptures if you want me to.

(edit) Actually, the devil isn't going to have his way, but he is going to cause a LOT of misrey during that time.

Galveston1
I was having fun with the non-sense of the rapture.
My sense of humor was at work.
I don't believe in the rapture as iit is being preached.
Jesus will come back to this planet just once only that includes the clouds.
Fred

I cannot dispute scripture. Galveston took it right out of the Bible. First corinthians speaks of the catching away of the believers. When I say believes I speak of those who have been born again. Just because a person believe there was a man called Jesus doesn't mean that person will be in the catching away. Sitting in a church doesn't make you a christian any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car. Quoted from joyce meyers. There are going to be 7 years of tribulation. Are we going into it right now? There has been some different thought of when the catching away of the saints is going to happen. Some say after three and one half years and some say before the tribulation starts. The antichrist will set up a one world government and one world religion at that time. Lets hear some comments on the antichrist. A man who will come to conquer the world. The spirit of antichrist is in the world right now. The antichrist will imitate Christ and many will be fooled by him. I don't want to be here when this a takes place.

i cannot dispute scripture. galveston took it right out of the Bible. first corinthians speaks of the catching away of the believers. when i say believes i speak of those who have been born again. just because a person believe there was a man called Jesus doesn't mean that person will be in the catching away. sitting in a church doesn't make you a christian any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car. quoted from joyce meyers. there are going to be 7 years of tribulation. are we going into it right now? there has been some different thought of when the catching away of the saints is going to happen. some say after three and one half years and some say before the tribulation starts. the antichrist will set up a one world government and one world religion at that time. lets hear some comments on the antichrist. a man who will come to conquer the world. the spirit of antichrist is in the world right now. the antichrist will imitate Christ and many will be fooled by him. i don't want to be here when this a takes place.

The argument isn't whether there will be a great tribulation, but rather when those living in that day will be brought into the Kingdom of God; whether they will be taken out of the world to, as it were, escape the tribulation. Galveston1's reference to 1 Thes 4:15-18, in my opinion, and in the opinion of the Catholic Church is a forced interpretation.

Anyone passage in scripture must be in harmony with other passages; otherwise the author(s) would be contradicting themselves. This is not a good thing in scripture as it would produce varying different faiths; but we're called to one faith (Cf. John 17:20-26).

This particular problem arises in the first book of Thessalonians if we hold that the living in Christ will be “raptured” out of the world to avoid the tribulation. The contradiction is that this scripture requires “the dead in Christ shall rise first.” Other scriptures call for the dead in Christ to rise only on the last day. To be raised first we hear Christ's words, “Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.” And, you must be of Christ. Which we hear Christ pulling us into his Kingdom, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.” (John 6:55) So, we see that the living don't catch up with Christ until after (or at least at the same time) as the dead on the last day when Christ comes to re-claim his Kingdom?

In Revelations 20 a spiritual battle takes place where satan is bound for a long time, during which only the “beheaded martyrs” (priests of God and Christ) are risen to minister to God in heaven. After satan is released for a short time, then the dead in Christ are risen. Then and only then the Kingdom of God is re-established on earth and living in Christ go out to meet Christ.

The concept of a pre-tribulation can be traced to John Darby in 1830. For some 1800-years prior to this the concept was unknown. Darby suggests that there will be “rapture” prior to the time of tribulation, later picked up by Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye. He based this on his observance of Margaret MacDonald, a 14-year old, in a levitation séance in 1830. (Cf. Dave MacPherson, The Rapture Plot) This is not a conditions I would call conducive to a revelation by the Holy Spirit.

As Fred has stated, multiple times, we will never know the time or place of his coming, "but of that day and hour no one knoweth: no, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone." (Matt 24:36)

JoeT

The concept of a pre-tribulation can be traced to John Darby in 1830. For some 1800-years prior to this the concept was unknown. Darby suggests that there will be “rapture” prior to the time of tribulation, later picked up by Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye. He based this on his observance of Margaret MacDonald, a 14-year old, in a levitation séance in 1830. (Cf. Dave MacPherson, The Rapture Plot) This is not a conditions I would call conducive to a revelation by the Holy Spirit.

As Fred has stated, multiple times, we will never know the time or place of his coming, "but of that day and hour no one knoweth: no, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone." (Matt 24:36)

JoeT

Joe,

I think you are really wrong. First I have NO IDEA where you get your info on John Darby but let me assure you, I grew up in the Plymouth Brethren. They followed closely the teachings of John Darby. For you to even THINK that John Darby would get his information from a girl in a trance or vision or whatever it was it LAUGHABLE. His teachings are so straight laced... if it wasn't in the WORD... he didn't TEACH it. YOU ERR BIG on this one. Besides that this girl had the vision in 1830... he was preaching the rapture in 1827... it had NOTHING to DO with the vision. I will go a step further and say that John Darby believed that everything that God wanted to reveal to us he did so in the Bible. I sincerely doubt he even BELIEVED the girl.

Look the Apostle Paul is the first to teach of the catching away in the new testament.. 1 Thess. What exactly do you think Paul is speaking of in those passages anyway?

You are correct NO ONE knows the DAY OR THE HOUR... but the Lord Himself said we could know the signs and when he is at the DOOR.

Joe,

I think you are really wrong. First i have NO IDEA where you get your info on John Darby but let me assure you, I grew up in the Plymouth Brethren. They followed closely the teachings of John Darby. For you to even THINK that John Darby would get his information from a girl in a trance or vision or whatever it was it LAUGHABLE. His teachings are so straight laced...if it wasn't in the WORD...he didn't TEACH it. YOU ERR BIG on this one. Besides that this girl had the vision in 1830...he was preaching the rapture in 1827....it had NOTHING to DO with the vision. I will go a step further and say that John Darby believed that everything that God wanted to reveal to us he did so in the Bible. I sincerely doubt he even BELIEVED the girl.

Look the Apostle Paul is the first to teach of the catching away in the new testament..1 Thess. What exactly do you think Paul is speaking of in those passages anyway?

You are correct NO ONE knows the DAY OR THE HOUR...but the Lord Himself said we could know the signs and when he is at the DOOR.

Look it up yourself: Dave MacPherson, The Rapture Plot. Google the name "Margaret MacDonald"

JoeT

Look it up yourself: Dave MacPherson, The Rapture Plot. Google the name "Margaret MacDonald"

JoeT

Sorry but he is full of phooy. No way... just because DAVE MacPherson said so.. don't make it so. Bummer.

sorry but he is full of phooy. No way...just because DAVE MacPherson said so..don't make it so. bummer.

So, show me "phooey"? It would seem to me that such phooey would be easily discounted. I've supported each statement with scripture or other reliable sources. ClassyT, on the other hand, only seems to provide phooey. Surly your convictions are based on more, where's the beef.

JoeT

They are all biblical and you know it. ( I'm referring to 1 and 11 Thess. PAUL TAUGHT IT FIRST.. (the catching away) You don't believe... I do. I wasn't calling YOU phooy I was calling Dave MacPherson that. Look, I grew up under John Darby's teachings... I oughtta know what the guy believes. He wouldn't even so much as acknowledge a vision in the Church period. He didn't believe in modern day prophets... I'm telling you he was a straight laced maybe even bording legalistic. He was very very knowledgeable in the Word. He was not at ALL into visions or dreams.. he believed like I said before that EVERYTHING that GOD wanted to reveal to us was in the Word. You haven't provided anything more than what DAVE McPhearson says. I suggest you actually READ some of John Darby's writings before you judge him. He started teaching the rapture in 1827... 3 years before the girl with the vision. And that is all I am going to say about that... ( kind of like forrest gump)

The argument isn’t whether or not there will be a great tribulation, but rather when those living in that day will be brought into the Kingdom of God; whether they will be taken out of the world to, as it were, escape the tribulation. Galveston1’s reference to 1 Thes 4:15-18, in my opinion, and in the opinion of the Catholic Church is a forced interpretation.

Anyone passage in scripture must be in harmony with other passages; otherwise the author(s) would be contradicting themselves. This is not a good thing in scripture as it would produce varying different faiths; but we’re called to one faith (Cf. John 17:20-26).

This particular problem arises in the first book of Thessalonians if we hold that the living in Christ will be “raptured” out of the world to avoid the tribulation. The contradiction is that this scripture requires “the dead in Christ shall rise first.” Other scriptures call for the dead in Christ to rise only on the last day. To be raised first we hear Christ’s words, “Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day.” And, you must be of Christ. Which we hear Christ pulling us into his Kingdom, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.” (John 6:55) So, we see that the living don’t catch up with Christ until after (or at least at the same time) as the dead on the last day when Christ comes to re-claim his Kingdom?

Why are you having so much trouble understandng that the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the changing of the living believers occurs in immediate sequence? And we have been in the "last days" ever since the time of Christ.

In Revelations 20 a spiritual battle takes place where satan is bound for a long time, during which only the “beheaded martyrs” (priests of God and Christ) are risen to minister to God in heaven. After satan is released for a short time, then the dead in Christ are risen. Then and only then the Kingdom of God is re-established on earth and living in Christ go out to meet Christ.

After satan is loosed for a short time (after 1,000 yrs of confinement) the only resurrection mentioned is that of the WICKED dead, not the righteous.

The concept of a pre-tribulation can be traced to John Darby in 1830. For some 1800-years prior to this the concept was unknown. Darby suggests that there will be “rapture” prior to the time of tribulation, later picked up by Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye. He based this on his observance of Margaret MacDonald, a 14-year old, in a levitation séance in 1830. (Cf. Dave MacPherson, The Rapture Plot) This is not a conditions I would call conducive to a revelation by the Holy Spirit.

I'm not convinced of MacPherson's objectivity. What I have heard about Margaret MacDonald is that she gave a message either in "tongues" with interpretation, or a word of prophecy, both gifts named by Paul in 1 Cor. ch 12.

As Fred has stated, multiple times, we will never know the time or place of his coming, "but of that day and hour no one knoweth: no, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone." (Matt 24:36)

JoeT


1Thes 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(KJV)

I have never said that the rapture and the Second Coming of Christ are the same event.

Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)

You have not addressed this passage so far. Fred said it applied to angels, but I reject that. In Revelation glorified men are sometimes called angels, even the pastors of the 7 churches are so called, but the Bible always identifies angels as such.

Please keep in mind that there will be one only return of Jesus to this planet with its clouds.
Therefore there will be NO rapture as it is being taught.
The rapture theory is a contradiction to Holy Scripture.
If you don't believe that, just wait and see, and I believe you will have a LONG wait of at least 100 years
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Please keep in mind that there will be one only return of Jesus to this planet with its clouds.
Therefore there will be NO rapture as it is being taught.
The rapture theory is a contradiction to Holy Scripture.
If you don't believe that, just wait and see, and I believe you will have a LONG wait of at least 100 years
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,
I don't know what hat you pull all these fantastic numbers out of, but I got to say it is entertaining to watch you falling off the pew.:D
Where does this now 100 years come into play?
Since Christ does call his church (the believers both living and dead in Christ) home How do you reconcile this same statement in the bible? Is the Bible lying?
I think you need to get your head out of the one religion you are stuck in and read and listen to some other denominations preachers for a while to understand the truth that is in the inspired word of God.

450donn,
Thanks but it should be obvious that the 100 years OR more is MY estimation according to the reasons I mentioned.
And I HAVE listen to other denomination preachers rant about the rapture including John Hagee several times.
I hear them struggle to put together enough pick and chose passage to appear to be convincing, but they are NOT because the bible clearly says that Jesus will return when least expected and ONLY one time.
By the way I do not fall off my pew because I don't have one in my church we have chairs.
But I do roll on the floor laughing at the rapture nuts who refuse to believe what Jesus says about himself.
Fred

Fred. You are getting all messed up in your doctrine.
The church will be called home. That is a fact. IF you had truly listened to people Like Hagee and many others with an open mind instead of the closed mind you are stuck in you and searched the scriptures and followed along for more than 15 minutes you would really understand. But I am preaching to the people who refuse to accept that maybe "the church" could be wrong on a lot of doctrine and therefore will not accept any other teachings.
So, let me ask you this,
Where does it say that you pray to Mary?
Or to some obscure saint?
What does the Bible teach about idols and idol worship?
Where does the Bible teach that sprinkling a baby is scriptural?
Those are your teachings are they not?
I don't accept them as biblical, but I sure am not going around spewing lies about you and your practice of doing it. Maybe you need to open your mind up to the big wide world of Gods teachings that are offered outside your church.
Sorry, I did not mean to get onto a rant. But it is very plain to see that the one sided rantings of several of the posts here are blindly biased and intended solely to influence people to YOUR way of thinking and not to explore the word of God in an open discussion.

450donn,
Sorry, but I have read books by bible experts who bb;ica;;y prove that the raptore is a trap, a hoax.
I believe THEM
My mind WAS open to the idea until I found out how wrong it is.
Fred

The church will be called home. That is a fact. IF you had truly listened to people Like Hagee and many others with an open mind instead of the closed mind you are stuck in you and searched the scriptures and followed along for more than 15 minutes you would really understand. But I am preaching to the people who refuse to accept that maybe "the church" could be wrong on a lot of doctrine and therefore will not accept any other teachings.

It’s probably because you don’t have an understanding of Catholics that you would suggest that the Catholics aren’t scripturally based. I’ve come to understand that Catholicism is a faith not only founded on Scripture but that Scriptural understanding is in harmony with Apostolic Tradition. No, we don’t accept other’s teachings unless of course they too can be shown to be in harmony with Scripture and Tradition.


Where does it say that you pray to Mary? Or to some obscure saint?
Catholics believe that there is one Kingdom of God who are spiritually bond with the fateful in purgatory, and heaven; the mystical body of Christ. As such we look at the Church Militant (those on earth), the Church suffering (those in purgatory), and the Church triumphant (those in heaven) as one Church with Christ at its head. Just as you can turn to your pew mate and say, pray for me, we are in solidarity with members in heaven. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Communion of Saints (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm)

What does the Bible teach about idols and idol worship?

Catholics don’t worship idols.

If perchance you’re referring to icons, we don’t worship them anymore than you worship the icons on your desk top – they are reminder of a saint or event in the life of Christ. Just like your desk top icons remind you of the programs they represent. Do you worship your computer? After all, there are icons on it! Silly isn’t it? CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Veneration of Images (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm)



Where does the Bible teach that sprinkling a baby is scriptural?
I’ll let you read about this one. If you want to be immersed, that’s OK two. The matter and form of the baptism only requires water (the amount isn’t of issue) and a certain form that must invoke the Holy Trinity.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Baptism (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm)


Those are your teachings are they not?
Assuming you are protestant, I’d say they were as much your teachings as ours up till 1520. Now think about this, there is a Catholic faith from the time of Christ till 1520 and all of a sudden icons become a spiritual problem? If you’re frightened by icons you are under no obligation to use them as a sacramental (reminder of holy things). The statues of saints don’t jump down from the walls and eat little children.

The difference in our faiths is both superficial in one sense and very profound in another.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Roman Catechism (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13120c.htm)


I don't accept them as biblical, but I sure am not going around spewing lies about you and your practice of doing it. Maybe you need to open your mind up to the big wide world of Gods teachings that are offered outside your church.

Well, those beliefs and tenets are Biblical as well as representing the very word of mouth teachings of the 12 Apostles and ultimately Christ himself. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Scripture (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13635b.htm)


Sorry, I did not mean to get onto a rant. But it is very plain to see that the one sided rantings of several of the posts here are blindly biased and intended solely to influence people to YOUR way of thinking and not to explore the word of God in an open discussion.

Ranting in my book is Ok; rant away. Just be kind enough to become informed. My bias isn’t blind, it’s deliberate, The Word of God written in Scriptures only truly comes alive with the discipline of Catholic teaching; each scripture harmonizing with another.

JoeT

Joe T.
Well said.
Well presented.
Well Done.
You are right about Catholicism
Peace and kindness,
Fred

all of a sudden icons become a spiritual problem?


There was a controversy that raged over icons in the ancient world. Iconoclasm was, ultimately, anathematized. Interestingly, though, iconoclasm wasn't a Christian issue until the rise of Islam. It was principally promoted by Christians who had been influenced by Islam's prohibitions against images of any kind in worship.

Ps: The human person is itself an icon.

Akoue.
Thanks.
I did not know about Islam regarding Iconoclasm.
Also I did not realize that I and all others are icons.
I do realize that my alarm clock is an icon.
LOL
Fred

Not even near addressing the OP question

Thread closed