Sunday 34th in Ordinary Time: Christ the King (A)

Today's Gospel (Mt 25:31-46): Jesus said to his disciples, «When the Son of Man comes in his glory with all his angels, He will sit on the throne of his Glory. All the nations will be brought before him, and as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, so will He do with them, placing the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

»The King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, blessed of my Father! Take possession of the kingdom prepared for you from the beginning of the world. For I was hungry and you fed me, I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you welcomed me into your house. I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you visited me. I was in prison and you came to see me’. Then the good people will ask him: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you food; thirsty and give you drink, or a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to see you?’. The King will answer, ‘Truly, I say to you: whenever you did this to these little ones who are my brothers and sisters, you did it to me’.

»Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go, cursed people, out of my sight into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels! For I was hungry and you did not give me anything to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink; I was a stranger and you did not welcome me into your house; I was naked and you did not clothe me; I was sick and in prison and you did not visit me’. They, too, will ask: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, thirsty, naked or a stranger, sick or in prison, and did not help you?’. The King will answer them: ‘Truly, I say to you: whatever you did not do for one of these little ones, you did not do for me’. And these will go into eternal punishment, but the just to eternal life».
In the above passage Jesus tells us what to expect if we do or do not do what He expects us to do.
;)So how will you be Judged by Christ the King?;)
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

I have a place on the right. Though sometimes I am a bit "sheepish" because I think of all those in prison or naked that I didn't minister to.

But lest anyone get a guilty conscience over such matters. Consider: Which naked person did Jesus clothe or did Jesus ever visit His cousin John the Baptist in prison?

Jesus was just telling His disciples (us) to minister to those who we know we are to minister to. (Let those who walk in the Spirit understand)
Making "feeding the whole world" a law which all His followers must follow to avoid eternal punishment is NOT what He is saying.

revdrgade,
You have made some good points...
But... all that Jesus did and said id NOT in the bible. So the bible tells us.
Jesus expects us to be kind and caring as he was I do believe.
They are good works that are expected of Christians,
They help prove our faith.
Yes others that are not Christian do such good works but that alone does not get them into heaven.
But I keep in mind that all good originates from the one true God who is good.
The Salvation Army bell ringers this time of year give people of all faiths (or of no faith) an opportunity to help others without knowing who the money goes to to help other than knowing that it does go to help, feed, shelter, and clothe the poor.
Thanks for your answer,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

But... all that Jesus did and said id NOT in the bible. So the bible tells us.

It also says that all that we need to know is in the Bible and that we are not go beyond what is written.


Yes others that are not Christian do such good works but that alone does not get them into heaven.

Good point! Goods works play no part in salvation, but are to be expected as a result of salvation.

I'm not sure if this is god's perspective, but it stands to reason that if one person helps, it's only a little. If all helped, there would be no lacking, or poor.

Mat 7:12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets.

I think this attitude that we're putting our 'drop in the bucket', so it will make a sea of blessing, is the motivation people should use.

It is important to realize that there are two different judgments.

One is for those who have not received Christ as Saviour and they will will be found guilty to spend eternity in the lake of fire, because it is only through Christ's sacrifice on the cross that we can be saved.

The other is for those who are saved. There is no doubt regarding their salvation because it is Christ's righteousness that will get them into heaven, not any works or merit of their own. But this judgment will be on works to determine how many crowns that they get for the work that was done in Christ's service. Ultimately, these crowns will once again not bring honour to us, but scripture records that we will throw them at the feet of Christ to glorify and honour Him.

Gogs,
I agree with you on this.
Fred

It is important to realize that there are two different judgments.

One is for those who have not received Christ as Saviour and they will will be found guilty to spend eternity in the lake of fire, because it is only through Christ's sacrifice on the cross that we can be saved.

The other is for those who are saved. There is no doubt regarding their salvation because it is Christ's righteousness that will get them into heaven, not any works or merit of their own. But this judgment will be on works to determine how many crowns that they get for the work that was done in Christ's service. Ultimately, these crowns will once again not bring honour to us, but scripture records that we will throw them at the feet of Christ to glorify and honour Him.

You make a very needed distinction on who is doing the "works"... and for bringing up the "crowns" which have been promised. I've never fully understood those crown because my finite mind can't fathom how we, the ransomed of the Lord, will have His PERFECTION plus something more than perfection.

revdrgade,
I believe that we will be judged as the bible says; for our faith and our works.
From the NJB 1 Cor 3: 10. By the grace of God which was given to me, I laid the foundations like a trained master-builder, and someone else is building on them. Now each one must be careful how he does the building.
11. For nobody can lay down any other foundation than the one which is there already, namely Jesus Christ.
12. On this foundation, different people may build in gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay or straw
13. But each person's handiwork will be shown for what it is. The Day which dawns in fire will make it clear and the fire itself will test the quality of each person's work.
14. The one whose work stands up to it will be given his wages;
15. The one whose work is burnt down will suffer the loss of it, though he himself will be saved; he will be saved as someone might expect to be saved from a fire.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

revdrgade,
I believe that we will be judged as the bible says; for our faith and our works.
From the NJB 1 Cor 3: 10. By the grace of God which was given to me, I laid the foundations like a trained master-builder, and someone else is building on them. Now each one must be careful how he does the building.
11. For nobody can lay down any other foundation than the one which is there already, namely Jesus Christ.
12. On this foundation, different people may build in gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay or straw
13. but each person's handiwork will be shown for what it is. The Day which dawns in fire will make it clear and the fire itself will test the quality of each person's work.
14. The one whose work stands up to it will be given his wages;
15. the one whose work is burnt down will suffer the loss of it, though he himself will be saved; he will be saved as someone might expect to be saved from a fire.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Did you notice what this passage says?

1 Cor 3:10-16
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

Note that when it speaks of the foundation being upon those things which do not burn, it does not refer to salvation, nor whether this adds to the salvation of the person. Indeed in verse 14 it says that if the works survive, the person receives a reward, which agrees wityh what scripture says about those who receive crowns for that which is done for Christ.

Salvation is only mentioned when it speaks of the persons works not being for Christ, and being burned up - in which case the saved nonetheless, even though their works did not survive.

Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour alone. It is not through our works.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

It is important to realize that there are two different judgments.

One is for those who have not received Christ as Saviour and they will will be found guilty to spend eternity in the lake of fire, because it is only through Christ's sacrifice on the cross that we can be saved.

The other is for those who are saved. There is no doubt regarding their salvation because it is Christ's righteousness that will get them into heaven, not any works or merit of their own. But this judgment will be on works to determine how many crowns that they get for the work that was done in Christ's service. Ultimately, these crowns will once again not bring honour to us, but scripture records that we will throw them at the feet of Christ to glorify and honour Him.

This is EXACTLY what the Word teaches. There will be the Judgement seat of Christ... That is for the saved and then the Great white throne judgement.. for all of those without Christ. Tj3, out of curiosity, what do you think the Judgement seat of Christ will be like? Will we be mortified if we have led a terrible Christian life? My pastor seems to think so. Or will this be more about our Lord and less about us? We will give the Glory to him anyway. I am curious as to what you think concerning the beama seat. Will those that have lived carnel lives be scared or embarrassed and ashamed. The bible says there will be tears. I don't know what to make of it.

It also says that all that we need to know is in the Bible

No it doesn't.


and that we are not go beyond what is written.

Beyond what is written about the matter in 1 Corinthians.


Good point! Goods works play no part in salvation,

Sure they do:

Romans 2

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


but are to be expected as a result of salvation.

Salvation is a result of good works:

Matt 25

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? Or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? Or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Sincerely,

De Maria

No it doesn't.

Sure it does. For example:

2 Tim 3:14-17
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV


Beyond what is written about the matter in 1 Corinthians.

It is speaking of sound doctrine and growing in the truth of the Lord.


Sure they do:

Romans 2
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Context is so important:

Rom 2:4-16
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Now notice that it DOES NOT say that it is their good works that give them eternal life, but rather it is their focus. The remainder of the context with make this explicitly clear.

8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV

What is the gospel by which men are judged?

1 Cor 15:1-6
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
NKJV

No works driven gospel there.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

First, the immediate context says that your private interpretation is wrong:

James 2:23-24
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
NKJV

Note - Abraham's righteousness came solely through belief in God. Indeed your private interpretation would make God a liar, because He says:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

Notice that the salvation is through faith and NOT OF WORKS. Because if it were of works, then we could boast of we have done. The works are a matter of glory to God which justifies the fact that we are saved because therough the works we demonstrate our faithfulness to God.

Salvation is a result of good works:

Matt 25

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

[snip for brevity]

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I missed where it said that these works gave them salvation. I see where the works are evidence of their salvation, but perhaps you can show me where it says that they were saved because of works.

Tj3, out of curiosity, what do you think the Judgement seat of Christ will be like? Will we be mortified if we have led a terrible Christian life? My pastor seems to think so. Or will this be more about our Lord and less about us? We will give the Glory to him anyway. I am curious as to what you think concerning the beama seat. Will those that have lived carnel lives be scared or embarrassed and ashamed. The bible says there will be tears. I don't know what to make of it.

I think that there may be some embarrassment, but I think that seeing God's glory will make that a transient moment. Also note that what scripture says about those tears:

Rev 21:4-5
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
NKJV

I think that this is what will be most important and will outshine everything else.

I think that there may be some embarrassment, but I think that seeing God's glory will make that a transient moment. Also note that what scripture says about those tears:

Rev 21:4-5
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
NKJV

I think that this is what will be most important and will outshine everything else.

well, here is my thought to that and why I get confused. We will have the MIND of christ.. completely. We will THINK exactly like he does. So how can we be embarrassed or ashamed .I personally think or perhaps the word should be HOPE, those emotions won't be in heaven. Course that is because I don't WANT to believe we will be ashamed and embarrassed. I have been saved for MANY years... I got saved when I was so young that I don't remember ( the Lord does) and now I am 47. I have spent so many many years being an IDIOT with a few smatterings of real Christianity. I don't want to revisit my stupidity and sin. Certainly Satan throws it up in my life plenty today. I hear preachers say.. it won't be a matter of SIN and yet they say you can't live in sin and expect NOT to cry and the Judgement seat of Christ. I have heard them suggest that it won't be about the sin BEFORE we were saved. ( I don't see how it could be about any sin ) I guess I can understand regrets at the Judgement seat.. the Lord showing us How we COULD have done things... that would bring tears. I don't know... all I know is that instead of wanting the Judgement seat to come... I feel dread. AND this is the worse part... instead of making me want to do things so much better now.. I think what is the use? Most of what my life has been about is selfish stuff. I don't know... guess I am rambling. But like I said.. I have a good 42 years of watching my life unfold and wishing I'd had done it different. Anyway, I don't think we are to dread the beama seat and I do. I fear I WILL be crying, I won't get any crowns AND the fire department best be called... because when the Lord finishes... and I step into the fire so to speak... lets just so there ain't going to be much GOLD there. I will be burnt to a crisp. They better get the hose ready. Lol (actually it isn't very funny.) Oh well. Sorry.. I'm off topic.

I'm so glad the topic turned to this. Simply because salvation is the most important aspect in christianity.
revdrgade kicked it off with this:
"I've never fully understood those crown because my finite mind can't fathom how we, the ransomed of the Lord, will have His PERFECTION plus something more than perfection."
the keyword here is 'His'. It's certainly not our perfection. So where do we get it? From the purging fire of god's spirit within us. We don't have to wait until judgement day.
so classyT, you only have to fear what you really desire more of, god in your heart. Perfect love casts out all fear, when we understand the purging of our hearts is for our own eternal benefit. So we can trust god, that he loves us and saves us from any effect of sin.
Tj3 says, "But this judgment will be on works to determine how many crowns that they get for the work that was done in Christ's service."
even the service we give is based on what jesus does in our hearts, whether a lot, or next to nothing:

1Cor 3:14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

which brings me to my last point:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

he doesn't want people to fry in hell?

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

the whole world's sin is paid for by jesus? No one is placed in hell's torture of unending fire?

obviously we are missing something.

It seems to me that De Maria and Tj3 are talking at cross purposes. De Maria errs when she claims that salvation is the result of works--or, at least, she misrepresents Catholic and Orthodox doctrine, which hold that we are justified by faith and works. Note the logical connective, "and", and not, as Tj3 seems to suggest by his response, "or".

The view is, of course, that we are justified by both faith (p) and works (q). Tj3 posts passages which clearly demonstrate the necessity of faith (which he is right to do since works performed in the absence of faith lack the relevant sort of standing). But he reads them too strongly, as entailing the denial of the necessity of works. Take the simple syllogism
1. p and q.
2. p.
3.Therefore, q.

The traditional view (which is to say, the Catholic--Orthodox view) is that both faith and works are required. To cite lots of evidence that faith is required simply misses the point--if the point is to refute the traditional view--since, if p and q is true, and p is true, necessarily (by modus ponens) q is true. Tj3 needs to show that an untendentious reading of, say James, expressly disallows that works have any part to play. But the "and not by faith only" makes it very difficult to see how he can get there from here.

That said, it might be useful in these contexts to consider how early Christians understood faith as, e.g. distinct from mere belief. I don't have faith solely by virtue of, for instance, holding the belief that Christ died for my sins (this is a very modern conception of faith *as* belief). Faith is rather to be understood in terms of the life lived, both one's set of beliefs and the ways in which one lives the Gospel. To prise the two apart is to fall into "dipsuchia", or a divided self--which is very much to the point when we find Christ condemning the hypocrisy of the Pharisees.

Since the biblical canon didn't come together until the first Ecumenical Council--we find all sorts of books which we do not now recognize to be canonical in the centuries before Nicaea (the epistles of Clement, the Sheperd of Hermas, the Didache)--it would be useful to take some fairly serious account of the ways in which those who traveled with and were instructed by Christ and the Apostles (esp. Ignatius of Antioch) understood these texts.

Salvation has much to do with our sins and repentance and works one of which is faith.
How we forgive others is a great indication on how we will be forgiven so the bible instructs us.
That is why the bible tells us clearly to WORK out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Akoue,
Yours is an Excellent post.
Thanks much,
Fred

well, here is my thought to that and why i get confused. We will have the MIND of christ..completely. We will THINK exactly like he does. So how can we be embarrassed or ashamed .i personally think or perhpas the word should be HOPE, those emotions won't be in heaven.

You may be right. We can only speculate. What we do know is that God will wipe away all our tears. That is in eternity what matters.

The view is, of course, that we are justified by both faith (p) and works (q). Tj3 posts passages which clearly demonstrate the necessity of faith (which he is right to do since works performed in the absence of faith lack the relevant sort of standing). But he reads them too strongly, as entailing the denial of the necessity of works. Take the simple syllogism
1. p and q.
2. p.
3.Therefore, q.

The traditional view (which is to say, the Catholic--Orthodox view) is that both faith and works are required.

That may be your tradition, but I believe what the Bible says - it is my standard.


To cite lots of evidence that faith is required simply misses the point--if the point is to refute the traditional view--since, if p and q is true, and p is true, necessarily (by modus ponens) q is true. Tj3 needs to show that an untendentious reading of, say James, expressly disallows that works have any part to play. But the "and not by faith only" makes it very difficult to see how he can get there from here.

You first error is that you omitted key facts. You cannot use one verse of scripture to counter another. All scripture is in harmony because God does not contradict Himself. Therefore there is but one right interptretation and it cannot ignore this passage and others:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Now your argument would be stronger if it was not for such strong and explicit language in scripture telling us that works bears no value for our salvation.


Since the biblical canon didn't come together until the first Ecumenical Council--we find all sorts of books which we do not now recognize to be canonical in the centuries before Nicaea (the epistles of Clement, the Sheperd of Hermas, the Didache)--it would be useful to take some fairly serious account of the ways in which those who traveled with and were instructed by Christ and the Apostles (esp. Ignatius of Antioch) understood these texts.

The canon was established before the foundations of the earth and the books of the canon known well before you suggest. Books rejected as canonical were rejected for valid reasons, and are not our standard of truth.

Tj3,

It wasn't my intention to speak on behalf of any tradition, simply to point out that your response to De Maria missed its mark. It's a separate question whether you are in fact right to hold the view that you do.

I mentioned James simply because you had highlighted it yourself--taking it to advance a claim it doesn't on its face, viz. that works don't matter. That said, lest I be accused of cherry-picking, I'll attempt to clarify my earlier post: In order to falsify the claim made by Catholics and Orthodox Christians that we are justified by both faith and works you would have to show not simply that faith is required for salvation--I readily grant you that the passages you adduce show that--but that works do not also have something to do with it. This you have not shown. For this you would need a text that explicitly states that for the purposes of our salvation it simply doesn't matter how we live our lives. And there is no such text in the NT.

Your citation of Eph.2 shows not that works are irrelevant but that faith is a gift and not an achievement (it is not something I have just by virtue of doing good deeds, for example). As I said earlier, it is uncontroversial to say that there can be no salvation in the absence of faith, otherwise the virtuous pagan could be saved. The question is, what role is to be assigned to the way a person acts. And here, as I've said, you haven't nearly shown that this is irrelevant to one's salvation. Pile up all the textual support you like for the claim that faith is required: This still isn't going to show that works don't matter. (You would be on point had the claim to which you are responding been: There is no salvation without faith *or* works. But that isn't the claim.)

Moreoever, if works were of no value for the purposes of salvation then it seems almost perverse for Scripture to devote so much time to instructions regarding the way one is to live one's life, particularly in light of Paul's assertion that the parousia is imminent. After all, he appeals to the nearness of the parousia in order to motivate people to live by the standards he adumbrates. And if Paul didn't take works to be relevant, why on earth did he take the time to castigate the community at Corinth for its lax sexual practices. The view that works are irrelevant was current in the first and second centuries: It was held by gnostics, whom the Apostles repudiated.

I don't know what it means to say that the canon was established before the foundations of the earth. (I do, however, understand what it means to say that the Kingdom was establsihed before the foundations of the earth, but the canon and the kingdom are two different things.) Certainly this claim is not itself to be found in the canon. I agree that books that were deemed noncanonical were excluded for good reasons (though note that many Christians prior to Nicaea thought that Revelation was deutero-canonical). But that would seem to suggest that the bishops at Nicaea exercised good judgment. If, on the other hand, your claim is that there was an established canon prior to Nicaea, I'm afraid you are confused. Constantine called the council for two reasons, remember: To address Arianism and to codify, finally, which texts were to be included in the canon of Scripture since as of 325 no widespread agreement had yet been reached. As I mentioned, prior to Nicaea, different communities used different books, and there was quite a bit of debate in the late third and early fourth centuries regarding whether to recognize, for instance, the Didache as genuinely apostolic.

By way of an aside: Did Christ arrive in Jerusalem before the slaughter of the paschal lambs? We seem to get two, divergent, accounts.

...Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
Now your argument would be stronger if it was not for such strong and explicit language in scripture telling us that works bears no value for our salvation...

I can see how someone might interpret this verse to mean that jesus, who we believe died for our sins, is the gift of god to us. Therefore we can't boast that we saved ourselves, by doing human works, because jesus already did it.
However, reading these key verses:

Eph 2:1 And you {that's us christians} [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience {those who aren't christians}:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.{what changed us?}

Eph 2:8 For by grace{that god changes us} are ye saved through faith{accepting god's will}; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God{to change us by his grace}:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast{he has changed himself}.
Eph 2:10 For we{christians} are his{God's} workmanship{changing us}, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them{god's will}.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision{unchanged} by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands{we were condemned by the law that Jesus fulfilled};

Eph 2:18 For through him{Jesus} we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded{changing} together for an habitation of God{purified temple} through the Spirit.

... we can see that it's god that begins our ongoing process of purification, leading to being saved, basically from our sinful selves, who miss the mark (err) of god. We have a living spirit that makes us alive by killing everything vain, or dead, within us. Then, we produce fruit of works based on god's will in us, directing us through his own spirit, through knowledge, wisdom, and power. This is all done through the love of god.
We cannot take away from the work of jesus, because if he would not have died and fulfilled the law, we would still be under the penalty of that law, at enmity with god.
Jesus said:
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name{only after jesus dies}, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you{why? To change us}.

{brackets mine}

For this you would need a text that explicitly states that for the purposes of our salvation it simply doesn't matter how we live our lives. And there is no such text in the NT.

The basis of the gospel explains this, again, quite explicitly. First, before one is saved, their destination is hell. It does not matter if it is one sin or billions. The destination is hell. If you deny that, I would be pleased to show you the scripture.

The fact is that before we are saved, we are slaves to sin:

Rom 6:5-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

And afterward, as Paul says above, we make ourselves bondservants to Christ who imputes righteousness to us. Indeed, when we receive Christ, ALL sin, that is ALL, is covered and replaced by Christ's righteousness:

1 John 1:8-9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

And as I showed, and can show from elsewhere, works plays NO part in our salvation.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

Note that this passage says more - that we who are in Christ Jesus are to do good works. That would be AFTER we are saved, but the verse contrast that to the fact that the good works do NOT save.

What does save us?

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

Note that once again, it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from ALL sin. If ALL sin, then works does nothing This is consistent.

Now, your question about whether when we are saved, can we live anyway that we wish? That is a different question, because clearly we are talking about AFTER salvation has come, and how we should then live. That is a question directly answered in scripture:

Rom 5:18-6:2
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
NKJV

So, no, we should no longer live as an unsaved person after we have been saved.

Sp scripture is clear - Works play NO part in salvation, but are something that we should expect to see as evidence of salvation AFTER we are saved.

Whatever emotions God has in heaven we will have for we are created in His image,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Rom 6:5-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

This is fine, but not really to the point. Nothing is said here about faith and works. The conclusion Paul draws, indicated by the "consequently" at 5.11, is that we can expect to live again if, like Christ, we die to sin. This is not at issue.

1 John 1:8-9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Here again, the passage is fine in a general way but doesn't speak to the point at issue in any obvious way. It does, at best, suggest that the salvific event par excellence does not itself expiate all our sins: We have to confess them (which is an act, something we do--an ergon, or work). In any event, it certainly doesn't support the claim that works don't matter.

And as I showed, and can show from elsewhere, works plays NO part in our salvation.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

As I said in an earlier post, this passage does not assert the claim that, as you put it, "works play NO part in our salvation". It does claim that salvation requires grace, which is given by God and not something we ourselves create. It does, as you rightly point out, mention works in an especially prominent way. While we do not find the claim that there is no salvation apart from works, neither do we find the claim that there is salvation apart from works. In other words, then, this passage does not support your central claim. It is neutral regarding the point under consideration. Having said that, surely a fair construal of the claim that we are created for good works, which have been prepared for us, and which we ought to undertake, would take it to suggest (and only suggest) that works are integral to salvation. What "integral" means would have to be parsed very carefully, of course, and its parsing turns on the settling of the broader question whether faith alone is sufficient in the absence of works.

Note that this passage says more - that we who are in Christ Jesus are to do good works. That would be AFTER we are saved, but the verse contrast that to the fact that the good works do NOT save.

Surely no one would claim (as I've pointed out) that good works are a sufficient condition for salvation. In that sense, works do not save. The question is, are works a necessary condition for salvation. You've argued that they are not. My point remains that the evidence you have so far brought to bear doesn't vindicate your claim. (Which is not, of course, to say that you're mistaken. Only that your claim remains unsupported.)

What does save us?

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

Note that once again, it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from ALL sin. If ALL sin, then works does nothing This is consistent.

Again, I don't see any mention of faith or works here. You are right to read the passage as claiming that it is the blood of Christ that saves us. But as 1 Jn. 1.8-9, which you cite, makes clear, Christ's death is itself not sufficient for salvation: We have to confess our sins. Talk of walking in the light can easily be construed to mean something like living the right sort of life, which would strongly suggest that works are part of the picture.

Now, your question about whether when we are saved, can we live anyway that we wish? That is a different question, because clearly we are talking about AFTER salvation has come, and how we should then live. That is a question directly answered in scripture:

Well, this isn't really my question. My point has been that your reply to De Maria has, so far, been unsuccessful. And while there may be reasons to favor your view, you haven't yet presented any clear Scriptural evidence that she is mistaken and you are correct. You have quite rightly emphasized the essential character of faith: It is a necessary condition for salvation. But there are two problems that remain: (1) You haven't given any clear indication of what you mean by "faith". (2) You haven't demonstrated that works are not also a necessary condition for slavation, in addition to faith. And, as I stated in my previous post, I don't think that you can satisfy (2)--not by virtue of any incapacity of yours, but simply because the text fails to support it. Whatever other issue you or another may have with De Maria's earlier post, there don't appear to be any reasonable grounds for rejecting the claim that works are necessary for salvation. What that means, what sort of works, etc. is itself a further and somewhat vexing question in its own right. But it is, of course, a separate matter from the present topic.

Rom 5:18-6:2
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
NKJV

This passage asserts the necessity of grace for salvation. It is neutral with regard to the present topic inasmuch as anyone would allow that faith and works require God's grace. To claim otherwise would be to embrace a rather extreme form of Pelagianism.

So, no, we should no longer live as an unsaved person after we have been saved.

I'm not sure what talk of "before" and "after" comes to here. We are, presumably concerned with what justification consists in--is it faith alone, or faith plus works. So we are, in any case, talking about those who have been saved and trying to sort out what makes the saved person saved. Unless we are talking about life after the resurrection, it's unclear to me what it means to talk about how someone lives "after" salvation.

Sp scripture is clear - Works play NO part in salvation, but are something that we should expect to see as evidence of salvation AFTER we are saved.[/QUOTE]

Here we disagree. I should think that either Scripture is unlcear or it is clear, i.e. that works do play some part in salvation. There are broad soteriologicall issues in play here, for if works don't matter, it isn't at all clear why any of us should worry overmuch about sin. If sinful acts can't damn me, why undertake the excruciating work of avoiding them?

Akoue,
That was a well made and thought out post.
When considering the entire bible concerning faith and works I MUST com to the conclusion that faith alone does not save and neither does works alone.
Both are needed.
There are many passages that support that.
Take for instance the one where Jesus tells us that if we do not forgive others we will not be forgiven.
Forgiving others is a work of mercy.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Rom 6:5-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

This is fine, but not really to the point. Nothing is said here about faith and works. The conclusion Paul draws, indicated by the "consequently" at 5.11, is that we can expect to live again if, like Christ, we die to sin. This is not at issue.

Read what I said. You brought up a second issue and that how those who are saved should live.


1 John 1:8-9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Here again, the passage is fine in a general way but doesn't speak to the point at issue in any obvious way.

How much more explicit do you need it?


And as I showed, and can show from elsewhere, works plays NO part in our salvation.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

As I said in an earlier post, this passage does not assert the claim that, as you put it, "works play NO part in our salvation".

Again, how much more explicit must it get?


Note that this passage says more - that we who are in Christ Jesus are to do good works. That would be AFTER we are saved, but the verse contrast that to the fact that the good works do NOT save.

Surely no one would claim (as I've pointed out) that good works are a sufficient condition for salvation.

Scripture is clear that it is NOT works, but the blood of Christ, and so far you have shown NOTHING from scripture that can refute that, nor how you can harmonize these explicit statements with you claims to the contrary.


What does save us?

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

Note that once again, it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from ALL sin. If ALL sin, then works does nothing This is consistent.

Again, I don't see any mention of faith or works here.

Exactly. Works play no part. And I note that you deny that verses that state explicitly that it of faith and not of works.

Eph 2:7-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

This won't go away no matter how much you deny it. There is so much more in scripture, but if you are unwilling to accept what it explicitly says, we are not going to get anywhere:

Rom 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV


But as 1 Jn. 1.8-9, which you cite, makes clear, Christ's death is itself not sufficient for salvation: We have to confess our sins.

Where does it say that Christ's blood is not sufficient? And once again, how do you harmonize this claim with the explicit passages in scripture that it is only through Christ's sacrifice on the cross that we are saved?


Now, your question about whether when we are saved, can we live anyway that we wish? That is a different question, because clearly we are talking about AFTER salvation has come, and how we should then live. That is a question directly answered in scripture:

Well, this isn't really my question.

You raised the point.

When considering the entire bible conserning faith and works I MUST com to the conclusion that faith alone does not save and neither does works alone.

The Bible disagrees:

Rom 3:28-29
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
NKJV

Nowhere in the bible does it say "Works alone saves".
But it does say that a faith without works is dead.
That I believe.
Fred

Nowhere in the bible does it say "Works alone saves".
But it does say that a faith without works is dead.
That I believe.
Fred

Right. But if a little works can pay a little bit of the price for sin, then a lot of works can pay a lot of the price for sin, so belief that works can pay anything is a denial of the gospel.

Faith without works is dead. Keep in mind what it says in the original Greek. The word for "faith" (pistis) is the same word as "faithfulness". If one truly has faith in God, then that would by necessity be evidenced by faithfulness, or works.

Faith (faithfulness) without works is dead.

Gal 2:16-17
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
NKJV


Faith comes first.

Arcura,

Many thanks for your kind words. And I'm delighted that you brought up works of mercy. I find it all too easy to forget that forgiveness isn't just an attitude, it's an act. Many thanks again.


Tj3,

Hmm. A bit testy.

I made no distinction at all between life "before" and life "after" salvation. So, no, I don't think I changed the subject on you. It's fine if you think the point relevant to my earlier reply, but I didn't then, nor do I now, see the relevance. That may be my fault. If anything, I would want to say that there is no special case, "How those who are saved are supposed to live". I would rather have thought that the point of much of the NT is that *everyone* should live the way the Scriptures instruct.

Let me try to explain why I find your reiterations of Eph.2 unhelpful. Whether you take the "it" which opens the clause at v. 8 ("it is the gift of God") to refer to "grace" or to "faith", the claim is that it is the gift of God; it is not produced by means of good works. Fine. But this is entirely different from the claim--which you mean to advance--that works don't matter at all. At best, the passage is allowing for a distinction between faith and works. It certainly doesn't say that you are saved by faith *alone*. (In fact, what it says is that without grace you can't be saved, on which I take it we agree. The "it" refers to grace, which is the topic of the paragraph in which the pericope occurs--we require grace; we cannot save ourselves by our own unaided efforts.) The grace we receive is not achieved by works. I have already granted that faith is required for salvation, so the claim that we are "saved through faith" isn't a problem for me. It would be a problem for me if the passage read that we are saved through faith and that works play no part. But it doesn't say that, of course. In fact, there's a semicolon between the relevant clauses. You seem to read the passage awkwardly, as stating that we are saved through faith and "not of works". But that makes complete mush of the surface grammar. The claim is rather that grace is a gift "of God" and not "of works" (this comes out still more clearly in the Greek, inflected pronouns and all). But nobody is denying that. Who would?

As for 1 Jn.8-9, nothing whatever is said about faith vs. works (neither word appears). So, yeah, I'll need something a bit more explicit than the utter absence of the relevant distinction. So while I agree with you that each of these is making explicit claims, unfortunately they clearly aren't making the explicit claims you attribute to them. (I've indicated in each case what I take the claims in fact to be, and you haven't given me any reason to think otherwise.)

Notice that I haven't tried to refute anything, only to show that you still haven't offered a cogent argument to demonstrate your favored conclusion. As I've indicated, none of the passages to which you keep returning vitiate De Maria's claim that works do matter. On the other hand, she has provided passages which seem to favor her view, and you've yet to demonstrate that she is wrong to read them as she does.

You seem to draw a rather odd conclusion from the exchange re:1 Jn.1.7. The pericope mentions neither faith nor works. You take the fact that it fails to mention works to show that faith alone is sufficient. But, of course, since it also fails to mention faith we can conclude either that faith isn't necessary for justificatiion or that the passage simply isn't addressing the question regarding faith and works. Since the former option would be perverse, it seems reasonable to favor the second.

On Romans 3. Yes, exactly, faith, faith, faith. There is no salvation without faith. Faith is contrasted with the law. But the faith/law distinction shouldn't be conflated with the faith/works distinction. And nowhere in the passage does it say that works don't matter. So, again, I agree with you that the passage is perfectly clear and explicit: It clearly and explicitly states that in Christ there is salvation apart from the Law, that we all require the redemption he offers, a redemption that is gracious and undeserved. And that it is through faith that we gain access to this grace. Where does it say: It doesn't matter what you do. Or: Faith alone, in the absence of works, provides the means by which you are saved. Etc. Of course, it doesn't say that. It doesn't even hint at that.

So it is only through Christ's sacrifice that we are saved. Apart from that sacrifice there could be no salvation. But we have to respond to the offer that has been made, that was made on the cross. This response is twofold: faith and works. If we fail to respond, well, then we aren't saved. So in that sense, the sacrifice isn't sufficient for one's salvation: If I am aware that the sacrifice was made but repudiate it, or reject it, or deny Christ, etc. then I won't be saved--even though Christ already died. I'm certainly not making the assertion that Christ's death and resurrection was somehow inadequate to save fallen humanity, but rather that I cannot be saved simply by virtue of the fact that Christ died and has risen. I have to respond to that reality.

Note: Works *of the law*. We aren't obligated to follow the strictures laid down in the Torah. From this it doesn't follow that it doesn't matter what you do. I am justified, if I'm justified, apart from the law--I don't have to be Jewish in order to be Christian. This isn't nearly as strong a claim as Tj3 suggests (to wit, it is not the claim that faith alone, in the absence of works of the right sorts, justifies).

I made no distinction at all between life "before" and life "after" salvation.

Precisely. But the Bible did. That is what I said in my first response. That is one of your key errors.


Let me try to explain why I find your reiterations of Eph.2 unhelpful. Whether you take the "it" which opens the clause at v. 8 ("it is the gift of God") to refer to "grace" or to "faith", the claim is that it is the gift of God;

Let's see what it says:

Eph 2:7-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

The context is clear. Read the whole of the wider context. It is clear.


it is not produced by means of good works. Fine. But this is entirely different from the claim--which you mean to advance--that works don't matter at all.

Please take the time to actually read what I posted. No one, including myself said that works do not matter. It is just that, as scripture says, they play absolutely no part in our salvation.


As for 1 Jn.8-9, nothing whatever is said about faith vs. works (neither word appears).

If ALL righteouness comes through Christ, NONE comes through us.



Notice that I haven't tried to refute anything,

More to the point, in most cases you have not actually addressed the points that have been raised.


On Romans 3. Yes, exactly, faith, faith, faith. There is no salvation without faith.

This is what I mean - you missed what it said - or maybe ignored.

Rom 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith[/U], to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV

Where do we find works in here? As I pointed out to Fred:

Rom 3:28-29
28 Therefore we conclude that [U]a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
NKJV

All you are doing is just denying over and over but as of yet, you have failed to show any scriptural justification for your argument. Just denying the obvious may get you the cheerleaders like fred, but it does not win you any real points.


So it is only through Christ's sacrifice that we are saved. Apart from that sacrifice there could be no salvation.

That alone ends the discussion because that tells us that His sacrifice is sufficient. Nothing more can be or needs to be added.


If we fail to respond, well, then we aren't saved. So in that sense, the sacrifice isn't sufficient for one's salvation:

That argument holds no water. It is a word game. If someone gives you a gift at Christmas, when you receive it, is that work?

Akoue,
Well said.
Well done.
Fred

Tj3,

Certainly the NT does talk about the restoration of the inner man. Fine. But of course this again is a separate matter from the question whether works are required for salvation. This is why I didn't bring it up. That you did suggested to me that you might be a bit confused, that you may be conflating discussions which address different issues. Rather than hurling around a bunch of different passages, perhaps you could take just one or two and really unpack them rigorously.

I took it to be blazingly obvious that when I have employed the locution "works don't matter" I meant this to be shorthand for "works aren't relevant for the purposes of salvation". I took this to be obvious both because I have used the two locutions in apposition and because the topic is... whether works are necessary for salvation. Your claim--sometimes in caps--has been that they are not.

All righteousness comes through Christ. Right. But where does justification come from? What justifies me? Christ. Well, then what about faith? If your latest gloss on 1 Jn. Is that all that matters is Christ's sacrifice, then does faith not matter either? (In the sense of "matter" adumbrated above, just to be clear.) If I am saved just by virtue of the fact that Christ died, then I must not need faith in order to be saved. But surely you can't mean to say that. Though you flirt with it when you write that "His sacrifice is sufficient. Nothing more can be or needs to be added." Nothing? Nothing at all? Not even faith? Have you jettisoned your original position?

We've disagreed, that's certain, but it's difficult for me to find credible your claim that I've refused to address the content of your posts. I have, in fact, taken them point by point. (Here I am, doing it again!) Of course, I've disagreed with them point by point--but that just shows that I've addressed them, since I couldn't otherwise disagree. Can you explain what you take my errors to be without simply quoting the same couple of passages--which I've already addressed repeatedly--and then saying, "See. It says what I said it says." That might be more helpful.

Tj3,

Certainly the NT does talk about the restoration of the inner man. Fine. But of course this again is a separate matter from the question whether works are required for salvation.

Exactly my point. The references that you gave earlier for works referred to works after salvation. I am glad to see that the confusion resulting from your statement about "works did not matter" has been cleared up.


All righteousness comes through Christ. Right. But where does justification come from?

First, why don't you tell us how you are using the word justification in this context, and specifically the distinction that you are making between it and salvation, so that we make sure that we are discussing the same thing.

Wow, you guys are way ahead. Good reading. I was just worrying about ME,, again. Why me.. poor me... look at me... Hmmmm Funny, when I had a family and wealth, thought I was so poor and alone. Now, I am reading about to think of others first.Cool!!

Tj3,

To take your second point/question/invitation first: I cannot be righteous (dikaion) unless I am justified by Christ, and this cannot happen in the absence of faith. Righteousness requires justification, and these cannot occur in the absence of grace. Again, I cannot, as it were, win them for myself all by myself. This is why it would be a mistake for anyone to suppose that works are sufficient without faith (as I've said many times). To go beyond this would, at the present time, be infelicitous for the reason that the broader soteriological questions regarding the precise relations that obtain among justification, righteousness, and salvation would divert us from the present topic. I'm not trying to be coy here: I'd be more than happy to wade into them, just perhaps on a different thread, since there is still the question regarding the necessity of works.

Now to your first remark: Notice that I have given no references. I have, instead, made it a point to work strictly with passages that you have adduced, this in the interests of charity. Again, my point throughout has been simply that you have failed to build a credible case on the strength of the passages that you yourself find most amenable to your view. So no, it isn't the case, as you say, that the "references that you gave earlier for works referred to works after salvation". While it's true that the NT addresses the restoration of the inner man, you haven't at all shown that works are relevant to this AND NOT to one's salvation. Your claim has been that works are not necessary for salvation; you've cited passages which you take to support this claim; and I have shown in each case that you have misunderstood those passages--or perhaps just misapplied them. This is sufficient to show that you have failed to refute De Maria. This means that the burden of proof rests with you, to show me that you have got those passages right despite my objections to your rather quixotic interpretations, or, failing that, to adduce some further Scriptural evidence to support your thesis. Now my suggestion--which you are, of course, perfectly free to disregard--is that you take one or two passages and unpack them in a rigorous manner in order to demonstrate that I have misread them--this, in preference to your earlier approach of ferreting out lots of passages that are off-topic (e.g. the discussion in Romans of our freedom from the dictates laid down in the Pentateuch).

This is, as I say, just a suggestion. But I make it in the interests of charity, since the approach you have pursued to this point hasn't served your interests. I don't envy you that task you have set for yourself: To deny the necessity of faith and works, taken together, is to hold that every biblical scholar from the first century through the fifteenth century got it terribly wrong--with the exception of the gnostics. This isn't to say that they are right and you are wrong, only that you have to climb a very steep hill. I wish you luck and I look forward to having my mind changed. (After all, if I'm wrong it profits me nothing, so I encourage you to show that you are right.)

Sure it does. For example:

2 Tim 3:14-17
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV

That doesn't say that all you need is Scripture.

Lets break it down.

14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned

"You must". You have to, it is imperative.

What is imperative? That you continue doing what you have learned.

From Scripture? No. Read on.

and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,

From the example of those who taught you. In Timothy's case, St. Paul was his teacher. As were his parents.

15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures,

If St. Timothy knew the Holy Scriptures from childhood, then it is probably his parents who taught him them.

which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

And the don't save you. But they "are able" or "are capable" of making you wise. And you can use this wisdom to be saved through faith in Jesus Christ.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,

Note the word "all". The word "all" is not equivalent to "only". All Scripture is inspired of God, that is Catholic teaching. But Scripture is not the only thing inspired of God. So are we. Everyone of us may be inspired of God at any time.

and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Note also, that Scripture is "profitable" for doctrine. Not NECESSARY. In fact, this verse describes Scripture as a tool for teaching doctrine, for reproof, correction. So, by definition, teaching is also profitable for doctrine.


It is speaking of sound doctrine and growing in the truth of the Lord.

It sure is. But it is speaking about TEACHING sound doctrine. That is the Catholic model. In obedience to Christ's command, the Church teaches Jesus' gospel.


Context is so important:

Agreed.


Rom 2:4-16
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Now notice that it DOES NOT say that it is their good works that give them eternal life, but rather it is their focus. The remainder of the context with make this explicitly clear.

It sure does say that God will give eternal life to those who persevere in good works. Read it again:

...the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

That is explicit.



8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,

Thanks for quoting that. Not only will God reward men for their good works. But He will punish men for their evil deeds. He repeats that in the next verse:


9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil,

Punishment for evil deeds.


of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

And this is universal.


10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good,

Again, reward for good deeds.


to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

This is universal.


11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Doers of the law are justified.


14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV[/I]


And the gentiles who have not the law are judged by the things they DO in the law written in their hearts.


What is the gospel by which men are judged?

The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Lets see how Jesus sums it up:

Matthew 19:17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Lets look at another summation by Jesus Christ, just to make sure we've understood Him:

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


1 Cor 15:1-6
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
NKJV

No works driven gospel there.

First, our works are driven by faith. We believe and we act upon that belief.
James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Second, if you had read the entire chapter of 1 Cor 15 to verse 58, you would have seen that St. Paul teaches us to labour for Christ.

Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


Finally, St. James teaches that our works round out our faith.

James 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?




James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

First, the immediate context says that your private interpretation is wrong:

No, it proves my interpretation, which is the Church's interpretation.


James 2:23-24
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
NKJV

Note - Abraham's righteousness came solely through belief in God. Indeed your private interpretation would make God a liar, because He says:

Read it again:
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

Notice that the salvation is through faith and NOT OF WORKS. Because if it were of works, then we could boast of we have done. The works are a matter of glory to God which justifies the fact that we are saved because therough the works we demonstrate our faithfulness to God.

First of all, faith is itself a work:
John 6:29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Second, you've misunderstood St. Paul.
8 For by grace you have been saved

We are saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not need to die for our sins. God did not need to sacrifice His only begotten Son for our salvation.

That is pure gift.

through faith

If we believe in Him and believing Him, obey Him.

and NOT OF WORKS.

Nothing which we did or could do is sufficient for God to send His only begotten Son to save us from our sins. We simply do not have the capacity.

it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

This is pure gift. God didn't send His Son to save us because of our faith nor because of our sacrifices. But because of our lack of faith, to give us an example to follow in His footsteps.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

And believing in Him, we must obey and walk in the good works which God set out for our obedience. If we do not walk in them, we are not saved.


Salvation is a result of good works:

Matt 25

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

[snip for brevity]

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I missed where it said that these works gave them salvation. I see where the works are evidence of their salvation, but perhaps you can show me where it says that they were saved because of works.

Ye snipped it out:
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Come to me you who are blessed of God BECAUSE...

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

When I was hungry you fed me, when I was thirsty you gave me drink, when I was a stranger you took me in...

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

When I was naked you clothed me, sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to me...

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

But Jesus, when did we do these things?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

When you did it to the least of my people, you did it unto me, therefore you are saved.

....46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Tj3,

To take your second point/question/invitation first: I cannot be righteous (dikaion) unless I am justified by Christ, and this cannot happen in the absence of faith. Righteousness requires justification, and these cannot occur in the absence of grace.

And since grace is unmerited favour, it cannot be by works or it would be something that we would merit.

That doesn't say that all you need is Scripture.

Rather than trying to obfuscate it with a lengthy commentary - just read what it says, especially the section that I highlighted in my previous post. It is very plain and explicit.

Then have a gander at Proverbs 30:5-6


It sure is. But it is speaking about TEACHING sound doctrine. That is the Catholic model. In obedience to Christ's command, the Church teaches Jesus' gospel.

The church spoke about in the Bible does. But that church is not a denomination, yours or any other denomination.


It sure does say that God will give eternal life to those who persevere in good works. Read it again:

...the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

I see, wso you wish to take this out of the context of scripture, deny that salvation comes through the blood of Christ and say that if all we do nis good works, that we are saved.

I disagree. As pointed out previously, the context is that good works follows salvation, and in that case, those who demonstrate their faith through faithfulness (which is what scripture says) will indeed be saved.


First, our works are driven by faith. We believe and we act upon that belief.

Now you're getting it. And if they are driven by faith, faith comes first.

Rather than trying to obfuscate it with a lengthy commentary - just read what it says, especially the section that I highlighted in my previous post. It is very plain and explicit.

I already did and I commented upon it very clearly.


Then have a gander at Proverbs 30:5-6

Doesn't say anything about Scripture. Remember, the Word of God can be spoken by men:

Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.


The church spoke about in the Bible does. But that church is not a denomination, yours or any other denomination.

The Catholic Church can be traced historically to Jesus Christ.


I see, wso you wish to take this out of the context of scripture, deny that salvation comes through the blood of Christ and say that if all we do nis good works, that we are saved.

I don't wish to say that. It would be wonderful if we didn't have to do anything to perfect our faith. But God says we must work:

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


I disagree. As pointed out previously, the context is that good works follows salvation, and in that case, those who demonstrate their faith through faithfulness (which is what scripture says) will indeed be saved.

Scripture is explicit. We are saved by our faith displayed in good works.

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.



Now you're getting it. And if they are driven by faith, faith comes first.

I never questioned that faith comes first. That is Catholic doctrine.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

But faith must be accompanied by works or it is not a saving faith:

1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Scripture is explicit. Faith alone is dead.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Tj3,

It's of more than passing interest to me what things you do, and what things you don't, reply to. I should have thought that if your view is as transparently true as you seem to suppose, by now you would have responded in a more substantive way to the objections I have raised. This doesn't reflect at all well on the prospects of the view you espouse.

Yes, grace is unmerited. The Catholic-Orthodox doctrine has always held this. From this, again (I keep pointing this out) it does not follow that faith and works together are not required for salvation. Good works require God's assistance, to wit, grace. Grace is a condition for BOTH faith and works. We cannot go it alone. Now I've been employing the most basic logical rules of inference throughout--I recently taught them to my six year old niece--but you seem almost stubbornly to refuse to reason carefully. And this is unfortunate. If Scripture is the word of God, then we all owe it better than sloppy reading and sloppy reasoning. Think of it as respect.

Your reply to De Maria once again veers rather wildly off-course. Nobody thinks that works ALONE save. I take it that De Maria means to make a case for the Catholic-Orthodox view that both faith and works together are required for salvation. You still have provided no pericope which states plainly that faith alone matters for salvation and works don't at all.

It's not at all clear to me what your frequent mention of "denominations" comes to. It is true that it has become something of a fad in recent years to decry "denominations"--the idea here sometimes seems to be that I can sit in a recliner with a beer in my hand and the Bible open in my lap and magically make sense of every jot and tittle without any real exertion or training. In any event, though, whether you agree with their teachings or not, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the only ones that date from the apostolic period, which is to say that if there are "denominations" out there, they must be the groups that in later centuries broke off from them (the gnostics, monophysites, protestants, et al.). And it is worth noting, again, that the only people in the ancient Christian communities who thought that a guy sitting alone in his room at night could penetrate the profundity of the Scriptures in their entirety were the gnostics--whom the Apostles themselves reproved. You claim that the Scriptures alone are your standard. But, of course, what I've shown is that it isn't the Scriptures that are a problem, it's your lax interpretations of them: So far, at least, you haven't shown yourself to be a good and careful reader. I think your latest reply to De Maria gives evidence of this.

De Maria,
Well said!!
Well done!!
By the way I often pray for the Holy Spirit to inspire me and I believe He has done so several times.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes, grace is unmerited. The Catholic-Orthodox doctrine has always held this.

If grace is unmerited, then there is nothing that we can or need to do in terms of work to get it.


From this, again (I keep pointing this out) it does not follow that faith and works together are not required for salvation. Good works require God's assistance, to wit, grace.

Which follows salvation. Scripture says that for us to do works pleasing to Him we must first be saved, and for the Holy Spirit to indwell and guide us to these good works, we must be saved.


Your reply to De Maria once again veers rather wildly off-course. Nobody thinks that works ALONE save.

And this is a strawman argument because no one, including myself even suggested it.


It's not at all clear to me what your frequent mention of "denominations" comes to. It is true that it has become something of a fad in recent years to decry "denominations"--the idea here sometimes seems to be that I can sit in a recliner with a beer in my hand and the Bible open in my lap and magically make sense of every jot and tittle without any real exertion or training.

Another strawman because I do not in any way oppose denominations. I oppose denominationalism.


You claim that the Scriptures alone are your standard. But, of course, what I've shown is that it isn't the Scriptures that are a problem, it's your lax interpretations of them: So far, at least, you haven't shown yourself to be a good and careful reader. I think your latest reply to De Maria gives evidence of this.

And that is an ad hominem.

Doesn't say anything about Scripture. Remember, the Word of God can be spoken by men:

Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

If and when it does, it will ALWAYS be in concert with God's written word.


The Catholic Church can be traced historically to Jesus Christ.

Even IF that were true (which I dispute based upon scripture and historical sources) it would still say nothing about whether it's teachings are correct. The same would be true for any church or denomination. We must base our doctrine on the word of God. Note in the book of Revelation that there were churches which traced back to the time of Christ and the Apostles and indeed were in existence in the first century, and when even these churches failed to keep in step with Biblical doctrine, God warned them what would happen to them. They gained no special status because of their close connections to Jesus. Scripture makes it clear that no church (not the one that you attend, not the one that I attend, no church), no denomination and no man has special status in His eyes. We are all sinners, and some of us save through grace by believing in Him.


I don't wish to say that. It would be wonderful if we didn't have to do anything to perfect our faith. But God says we must work:

Perfecting our faith means faith first exists. That is my point.


Scripture is explicit. We are saved by our faith displayed in good works.

Right. I think that you are finally coming around. The evidence of our faith is displayed in good works.



I never questioned that faith comes first.

Then you agree that the good works are the result of our salvation.

... Right. I think that you are finally coming around. The evidence of our faith is displayed in good works...

I think we can agree on this statement.


Then you agree that the good works are the result of our salvation.

As I understand Scripture, without faith, we are not saved.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Therefore faith comes before salvation.

And without works, we don't have faith.
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Therefore works come with faith. And without works there is no faith.

So, if it is true that without works one doesn't have faith, and one must have faith before one is saved, how can good works be the result of salvation?

Sincerely,

De Maria

I think we can agree on this statement.

I am always happy to find a point of agreement.


As I understand Scripture, without faith, we are not saved.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Therefore faith comes before salvation.

When you are dligently seeking, you do not have faith. You only have faith once you are convinced of the truth and believe in the truth. You cannot have faith in something that you don't believe in.


And without works, we don't have faith.
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This does not say that you don't have faith if you don't have works. It just repeats what we already agreed upon. Works are evidence of faith, and thus without the evidence, can you really say that the faith exists? That is all that it is saying. Of course we also have to recognize that even when a person is saved, they do not have works in the first second afterward, and maybe for some time thereafter. So even when dealing with the evidence of works, we need to be careful about how we judge.

I am always happy to find a point of agreement.

As am I.


When you are dligently seeking, you do not have faith.

How does that jive with this verse, which seems to equate the faithful with those who diligently seek God?

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

As I understand it, St. Paul is saying that without faith one can't please God. Saying that positively, with faith one pleases God and God rewards that faithful one. In other words, God rewards the one who faithfully seeks Him.


You only have faith once you are convinced of the truth and believe in the truth. You cannot have faith in something that you don't believe in.

Does one diligently seek for something that he doesn't believe exists?


This does not say that you don't have faith if you don't have works.

What does it mean then, faith without works is dead?

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


It just repeats what we already agreed upon. Works are evidence of faith, and thus without the evidence, can you really say that the faith exists?

No. Therefore, if faith is needed to be saved. And there is no evidence of faith without works. Can we say that one who claims to be faithful is saved?


That is all that it is saying. Of course we also have to recognize that even when a person is saved, they do not have works in the first second afterward, and maybe for some time thereafter. So even when dealing with the evidence of works, we need to be careful about how we judge.

Is diligently seeking God a work?

James 2.24: "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" [ex ergon dikaioutai anthropos kai ouk ek pisteos monon]. This *explicitly* states that we are not justified by faith alone (ouk ek pisteos monon).

Akoue,

Who wrote that passage? Check out who it wrote it too also.

Akoue,

Who wrote that passage? Check out who it wrote it too also.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.

Akoue,

Who wrote that passage? Check out who it wrote it too also.

St. James, the brother of the Lord to the Twelve Tribes in the Church, the New Jerusalem. We are all Spiritual Semites and the Church is the redemption of Israel.

Neither is there one Church for the Jews and another Church for the Gentiles. Jesus only made one Church:

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

DeMaria,

Yes, he was the brother of the Lord and he was writing to the 12 tribes. He didn't understand the church like the apostle Paul. He was still steeped in the Law. His wording even is very Jewish. He talks about true religion... Christianity isn't a religion it is a relationship. That doesn't mean the book is null and void but it needs to be put into context. ALSO... Faith without WORKS IS dead. BUT that doesn't mean our Faith is null and void... just dead. When I'm not living right... my spiritual life dies, but the Holy Spirit NEVER leaves me. We must rightly divide the WORD.

How does that jive with this verse, which seems to equate the faithful with those who diligently seek God?

I see nothing there that says that those seeking have already found Him. That would not make logical sense.


Does one diligently seek for something that he doesn't believe exists?

Believing God exists does not mean the same as believing in God.

James 2:19
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
NKJV


No. Therefore, if faith is needed to be saved. And there is no evidence of faith without works. Can we say that one who claims to be faithful is saved?

Agreed. The "claim" is not the same as having faith. But that still does not say that works are required before one is saved.

St. James, the brother of the Lord to the Twelve Tribes in the Church, the New Jerusalem. We are all Spiritual Semites and the Church is the redemption of Israel.

That sounds a lot like the error of replacement theology (i.e. the belief that the church replaced Israel).

DeMaria,

Hi.


We must rightly divide the WORD.

Well I definitely agree with that.


Yes, he was the brother of the Lord and he was writing to the 12 tribes.

The 12 Apostles of the Church now lead the 12 Tribes.


He didn't understand the church like the apostle Paul.

Unless you can point to a Scripture that says that the Apostle St. James, who walked and talked with the Lord whose mother is his aunt, I'd have to question your statement.


He was still steeped in the Law.

As was St. Paul, a Pharisee born of Pharisees.


His wording even is very Jewish. He talks about true religion... Christianity isn't a religion

Scripture is infallible. The epistle of St. James is Scripture. If Scripture says that Christianity is a religion and you deny that, whom should I believe?


it is a relationship.

No doubt.


That doesn't mean the book is null and void but it needs to be put into context.

It's a wonderful book which contradicts Luther's doctrines. That's why Luther considered it the epistle of straw. Do you share that attitude towards the Epistle of St. James?


ALSO... Faith without WORKS IS dead. BUT that doesn't mean our Faith is null and void... just dead.

I can't wrap my head around that one.


When I'm not living right... my spiritual life dies, but the Holy Spirit NEVER leaves me.

Then what gives life to your "spiritual life"? The Holy Spirit doesn't die, does it? Are you hooked up to another Spirit which I don't know about?

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

As I understand Scripture, if the Holy Spirit is in me, my spirit is alive. But if the Holy Spirit is not in me, my spirit is dead.

I hope that makes sense.

Sincerely,

De Maria

That sounds a lot like the error of replacement theology (i.e. the belief that the church replaced Israel).

We don't believe that is an error.

Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rev 18 4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The Church is the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem:
Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Demaria,

The Holy Spirit never leaves me. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. James was the Lord's brother... they have the same mother. AND... when I'm not feeding my spirit, doing the things that I know that I should, my faith is not active... kinda dead. That doesn't me the Lord leaves me... I just need to repent and get up and start over. James doesn't say Christianity IS a religion... so you should believe the Bible.

I see nothing there that says that those seeking have already found Him. That would not make logical sense.

One does not seek for something they know doesn't exist, do they?

I asked:

Does one diligently seek for something that he doesn't believe exists?

And you answered:

Believing God exists does not mean the same as believing in God.

James 2:19
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
NKJV

I don't see the relationship between my question and your response to it.


Agreed. The "claim" is not the same as having faith. But that still does not say that works are required before one is saved.

My understanding is that Scripture says that works are required for faith.
And faith is required for salvation.

Demaria,

The Holy Spirit never leaves me. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. James was the Lord's brother...they have the same mother. AND....when I'm not feeding my spirit, doing the things that I know that i should, my faith is not active....kinda dead. That doesn't me the Lord leaves me...I just need to repent and get up and start over. James doesn't say Christianity IS a religion...so you should believe the Bible.

But notice that in the verse I quoted above, James is saying not that faith without works is dead, that it is not a living faith. He clearly and unequivocally affirms that we are not justified by faith alone: "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone".

Demaria,

The Holy Spirit never leaves me. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. James was the Lord's brother...they have the same mother. AND....when I'm not feeding my spirit, doing the things that I know that i should, my faith is not active....kinda dead. That doesn't me the Lord leaves me...I just need to repent and get up and start over. James doesn't say Christianity IS a religion...so you should believe the Bible.

I'm glad you are so confident in the Lord. However, Scripture seems to warn that others who "were made partakers of the Holy Spirit" that they can lose their salvation.

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who

were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God,
and the powers of the world to come,

Does this describe the saved?

6If they shall fall away,

Does that mean they can fall away? And thereby lose salvation, because remember, it is impossible:

to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Let me know what you think.

Sincerely,

De Maria

DeMaria,

That is a very sobering verse indeed. But again, what were the jews doing? What was Paul addressing. These Jewish people were offering up sacrifices after the Perfect sacrifce had given up his life. I like you DeMaria. You have a good heart and I feel like you aren't just here to argue the point.

DeMaria,

That is a very sobering verse indeed. But again, what were the jews doing? What was Paul addressing. These Jewish people were offering up sacrifices after the Perfect sacrifce had given up his life.

Please explain that statement.


I like you DeMaria. You have a good heart and I feel like you aren't just here to argue the point.

Thank you. I'm enjoying our exchange as well.

We don't believe that is an error.

Read Romans 11. Paul speaks quite explicitly against that error.

One does not seek for something they know doesn't exist, do they?

All the time. Did the explorers in the 15th century KNOW what they would find?

Do scientists who continue to do research KNOW what they will find?

Have you not ever read of the numbers of folk who opposed God and yet sought the truth? Did they know where it would lead?

Many people seek after God (Like Saul in the NT) and find Him but were not expecting what they found.






I asked:
Does one diligently seek for something that he doesn't believe exists?




and you answered:
Believing God exists does not mean the same as believing in God.

James 2:19
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
NKJV

I don't see the relationship between my question and your response to it.

You were suggesting that a person who was seeking had faith based upon your suggestion that if they sought, they believed that what they sought existed.

That is exactly what the demons say about God, but they do not believe in Him (i.e. do not have faith in Him), just as those who seek do not have faith in Him. How can they - they don't know Him if they are seeking Him.


My understanding is that Scripture says that works are required for faith.
And faith is required for salvation.

You can believe it but that does not make it true.

All the time. Did the explorers in the 15th century KNOW what they would find?

Columbus was seeking India which he knew existed but stumbled upon America. The Conquistadors were seeking for the Fountain of Youth which they believed was in Florida and for gold they believed was in South American and Mexico.

Which explorers do you refer to who seek for something which they don't believe exists?


Do scientists who continue to do research KNOW what they will find?

Is there a difference between knowing they will find it and believing they will find it?


Have you not ever read of the numbers of folk who opposed God and yet sought the truth? Did they know where it would lead?

Since I was one of those, yes, I thought I knew where it would lead me. But in the end, I wound up where I didn't expect.

What I mean is, when I was atheist, I knew I was right. Now I know that I was wrong.


Many people seek after God (Like Saul in the NT) and find Him but were not expecting what they found.

How does that speak to the question we are discussing? Do people seek after that which they don't believe exists?

Saul believed that God existed and sought after him. He simply didn't realize that he was seeking after God in the wrong way until God knocked him off his horse.


You were suggesting that a person who was seeking had faith based upon your suggestion that if they sought, they believed that what they sought existed.

Correct. I don't think people seek after that which they believe doesn't exist. They seek after that which they believe exists because they don't know where or how to find it.


That is exactly what the demons say about God, but they do not believe in Him (i.e. do not have faith in Him), just as those who seek do not have faith in Him. How can they - they don't know Him if they are seeking Him.

The demons know that God exists and they know where He is. They are not seeking Him. In fact, they are seeking to escape from Him.


You can believe it but that does not make it true.

Can I say the same about what you believe? Or not?

Read Romans 11. Paul speaks quite explicitly against that error.

This speaks to the remnant of the Jews who did not leave Judaism and join the Lord and the Apostles in the Church. It is very clear that they were cut away:


20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

They can ALSO be grafted back in IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF. But it won't be to the same Old Testament Covenant. But to the Covenant of Jesus Christ which is mediated by the Church.

This speaks to the remnant of the Jews who did not leave Judaism and join the Lord and the Apostles in the Church. It is very clear that they were cut away:


[I]20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Careful - read all of what it says:

Rom 11:17-19
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
NKJV

NOWHERE here does it support the idea that the church becomes Israel. In fact it is quite explicit in its warning against the doctrine.

Careful - read all of what it says:

Rom 11:17-19
And if some of the branches were broken off,

Some of the branches refers to the fact that many Jews left Israel and converted to the Christian faith. Those that didn't were broken off:

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
NKJV

NOWHERE here does it support the idea that the church becomes Israel. In fact it is quite explicit in its warning against the doctrine.

I believe it does. And elsewhere also:

Hebrews 8 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Columbus was seeking India which he knew existed but stumbled upon America. The Conquistadors were seeking for the Fountain of Youth which they believed was in Florida and for gold they believed was in South American and Mexico.

He was not looking for India, but rather trying to find a route non-existent route to India which he HOPED existed. Others just set out to find out what was there. Read about Cook, for example.


Is there a difference between knowing they will find it and believing they will find it?

Once again, believing and "believing in" something are vastly different.


How does that speak to the question we are discussing? Do people seek after that which they don't believe exists?

Often they seek without an idea of what they will find.


Saul believed that God existed and sought after him. He simply didn't realize that he was seeking after God in the wrong way until God knocked him off his horse.

Exactly.


The demons know that God exists and they know where He is. They are not seeking Him. In fact, they are seeking to escape from Him.

Exactly. So just believing is not good enough. You must believe in God.


Can I say the same about what you believe? Or not?

Absolutely. I often tell people on-line and when I speak in public NOT to believe something because I say it, but to check things out for themselves.

Some of the branches refers to the fact that many Jews left Israel and converted to the Christian faith. Those that didn't were broken off:

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

In the OT we are told that the gospel would also go to the Gentiles. So? The Gentiles believers are grafted into the tree of... what? ISRAEL!


I believe it does. And elsewhere also:

Hebrews 8 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Stop here for a moment. Who is the covenant made with? The church? NO - ISRAEL!


9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Now, how long was the covenant to last - until the Jews stop following the covenant?

NO -

Jer 31:35-36
35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):

36 "If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever."
NKJV

Isa 61:8-9
8 "For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed."
NKJV

He was not looking for India, but rather trying to find a route non-existent route to India which he HOPED existed. Others just set out to find out what was there. Read about Cook, for example.

This verse seems to say that hope is more than faith.

2 Corinthians 10:15
Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

According to this, hope comes when faith is increased.

So if one hopes to find a route, it is because he already believes that route exists. He already has faith that route exists. And now he is exercising that faith by searching for that route.


Once again, believing and "believing in" something are vastly different.

How does that answer my question?


Is there a difference between knowing they will find it and believing they will find it?


Often they seek without an idea of what they will find.

Perhaps you are correct. But knowing the business mind as I believe I do, I doubt that anyone will lend money to a venture that they don't have some assurance will succeed.


So just believing is not good enough. You must believe in God.

??

In the OT we are told that the gospel would also go to the Gentiles. So? The Gentiles believers are grafted into the tree of... what? ISRAEL!

To the root. The root is God.

Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The wild tree was grafted in to the root.


Stop here for a moment. Who is the covenant made with? The church? NO - ISRAEL!

To whom is the New Covenant offered. Who rejected the New Covenant.

John 1
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.


Now, how long was the covenant to last - until the Jews stop following the covenant?

NO -

Until Jesus fulfilled the Covenant.

Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


36 "If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever."
NKJV

Galatians 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Isa 61:8-9
8 "For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed."
NKJV

Deuteronomy 28:37
And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.

1 Kings 9:7
Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

Psalm 44:14
Thou makest us a byword among the heathen, a shaking of the head among the people.

And if you keep reading Jer 31, you'll see that the Old Israel will be destroyed and the New City, the New Jerusalem will be lifted in its place to last forever. This is a prophecy of Christ's Church.

38Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

This verse seems to say that hope is more than faith.

2 Corinthians 10:15
Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

According to this, hope comes when faith is increased.

This is not speaking of hope that their region of ministry will be increased. This is not speaking of salvation.


So if one hopes to find a route, it is because he already believes that route exists. He already has faith that route exists. And now he is exercising that faith by searching for that route.

The only thing that we can draw from what you are saying is that you believe you are right despite the evidence. Burt nonetheless it does not help your argument because scipture is clear that believing is not the same as believing in God.


Perhaps you are correct. But knowing the business mind as I believe I do, I doubt that anyone will lend money to a venture that they don't have some assurance will succeed.

That is a dramatic change of topic.

I'm trying to see the present discussion in light of the OP...

There is, I think we all agree, a meaningul distinction to be made between believing something and believing in something, in the sense of having faith. I believe that 2+2=4, and I believe in the laws of arithmetic. But the sense in which I believe in the laws of arithmetic is different from the sense of "believe in" in which I believe in God. Faith involves, among other things, commitment of a sort that isn't in play in the arithmetic case.

But, however me may discriminate between belief (I believe that p), or even belief + psychological certainty (I'm really certain that p), faith involves a kind of commitment that isn't obligatory in cases of mere belief. I understand the second chapter of James to say that we can have faith in the absence of works, but in a deficient way, to wit, that it is not a living faith. This is why we are told not to buy in to the idea that justification is by faith alone, precisely because were it alone it would be a dead faith, it would be faith in only a very attenuated sense of the word "faith".

To the root. The root is God.

Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The branches are the same as the root:

Rom 11:16-17
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
NKJV

Rom 11:24
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
NKJV

If you say that the root is God, then so are the branches including those cut off.


The wild tree was grafted in to the root.

That is not what scripture says:

Rom 11:23-25
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
NKJV

Some wild branches were grafted onto the true where some natural brahces were cut off.


To whom is the New Covenant offered. Who rejected the New Covenant.

You keep forgetting that the covenant with Israel is everlasting. It depends upon God's fathfulness not that if the Jews.

If lack of faithfulness was a reason for rejection, then the Gentiles have no claim to the covenant.

This is not speaking of hope that their region of ministry will be increased. This is not speaking of salvation.

My point is that hope, according to my understanding of that verse, requires greater faith. You said that the explorers "hoped" to find the routes that they didn't know existed. If they hoped to find them then they had faith that they existed even though they didn't know where they were.

This translates to seeking God. Those who "hope" to find Him will seek diligently for Him although they might be seeking in shadows until they get to the light.


The only thing that we can draw from what you are saying is that you believe you are right despite the evidence.

I am using the evidence to support my explanations. Explorations were a business venture then as now. Business men didn't go out to search for things which they didn't believe existed because they would LOSE MONEY. They wanted to make money. And not just a little. They wanted to be rich. Then as now, it doesn't make sense to risk fortunes on risky ventures.


Burt nonetheless it does not help your argument because scipture is clear that believing is not the same as believing in God.

?? I have no idea what that means. Are you comparing "believing in anything else besides God" to "believing in God"?

If not, what do you mean?

If so, where is this concept in Scripture?


That is a dramatic change of topic.

Really? Didn't you bring up explorers of the 15th century? And weren't they business men seeking to make a fortune or sent by businessmen and Kings seeking to make a profit?

My point is that hope, according to my understanding of that verse, requires greater faith.

It is not even talking about the same thing nor is it saying what you claim. You are taking it entirely out of context.


You said that the explorers "hoped" to find the routes that they didn't know existed. If they hoped to find them then they had faith that they existed even though they didn't know where they were.

I think you are grasping at straws bigtime. Now you seem to promoting have faith in nothing.

De Maria,
Good points.
Good question.
Fred

De Maria,
Good points.
Good question.
Fred

Thanks Arcura. Thanks for posting this good and thought provoking topic as well.