I really do hope that he can deliver, he is one of the few politicians I have ever had any faith in. Let's give this man a chance before we crucify him. McCain gave a very graceful and heartfelt speech of concession, and I respect him. Discuss your thoughts!

One of the few you had faith in? In my short time, he's the ONLY one I have faith in. I hope he can deliver.

Well done USA.

Well done to Barack Obama and congratulations to the American's who voted for him!

I really think the whole 'first black US President' thing has been slightly overused though. Why make a big deal out of it when it doesn't matter in the first place? Anyway, I like his persona and as the two posts above say, I really hope he can deliver not just for America but for the world.

I also hope we (the British) follow America's lead and elect a prime minister who is not dull, boring and characterless.

So sad that a man that the people have elected as president of the United States, refuses to say the pledge of Allegiance. Has associated himself with known terrorists, has refused to release any personal information, went to church under a pastor that preached hatred and bigotry, has as his platform socialism through and through, will increase welfare payments to millions of people who do not pay taxes, will spend this country into a depression that we will unlikely get out of for many many years, will run from our enemies at the drop of a hat, has NO experience in either foreign or domestic policy. I could go on and on, but choose instead to finish with this. Look at the stock market. Down 355 points so far. America will under Obama become the next third world country in the very near future.
The most capable candidate of them all was Palin. She has managed government, she has been commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard which is the first line of missile defense from the North. She has managed and made good decisions for the people of her state. Cannot say the same for Biden/obama or McCain.

Im so glad obama has become president. From November 1st to November 4, I put in at least 16 hours of volunteer service a day, and on one day I put in 19 hours! Im glad it was for a good cause.

And fyi 450donn, as you pointed out, the stock market IS down 355 points UNDER BUSH. We are already facing depression. Thanks for reminding us why we voted democrat

450Donn have you planned an exit strategy yet? Or are you going to tough it out?

The most capable candidate of them all was Palin. That puts you in a very very small minority.

and fyi 450donn, as you pointed out, the stock market IS down 355 points UNDER BUSH. We are already facing depression. Thanks for reminding us why we voted democrat

But the market is down after the news of the election turn out. And who has run congress for the last two years. Run away gas prices, housing market in free fall all under the watchful eye of nancy pelosi, harry reed and barnie frank. Thanks democrats for totally destroying this country. It really astounds me that people would vote for a person that has associated himself with known terrorists, gangsters, people that insite race hatred, is a devout socalist and promotes murder. Then there was lewis faracon calling obama the messiah! Not to mention the jack booted youths in camo fatigues chanting obama,obama in the streets. Things like that remind me of 1937 Natzi Germany. All I can say is GOD help us!

WOW!

Nazi Germany, America turning into a third world country, and last but not least.. PALIN was the MOST qualified!!

I think your outlook and comparisons are outrageous and even comical.

Good for you America, I sincerily hope that your new president can begin repairing what your last president destroyed.

I am confused why is it wrong that we are excited about a politician. Growing up the older people would say get involved with something you believe in, something that will make a difference. So Finally, someone comes along that my generation (and others) believe in so we get involved. Then the same people who told us to get involved and make a difference are now calling us brain washed, obamabots or whatever childish names people came up with.

So my question is were we supposed to get involved with something WE believe in or were we only suppose to get involved if it was OK with the rest of the people. You old people need to make up your mind!! Do you want us to go back to being slackers or do you want us to stay involved?

I am confused why is it wrong that we are excited about a politician. Growing up the older people would say get involved with something you believe in, something that will make a difference. So Finally, someone comes along that my generation (and others) believe in so we get involved. Then the same people who told us to get involved and make a difference are now calling us brain washed, obamabots or whatever childish names people came up with.

So my question is were we supposed to get involved with something WE believe in or were we only suppose to get involved if it was ok with the rest of the people. You old people need to make up your mind!!!! Do you want us to go back to being slackers or do you want us to stay involved?

I am all for getting involved. But that involvement comes at a hefty price. You need to be informed first and foremost about the issues. Read and understand not just believe what you are being told is the truth. You must do research on the issues and how your candidate stands on the issues. If you agree with their stand then by all means vote for them. If they do not agree with your values, then it is up to you to find candates that do adhere to your core beliefs.
Personally as a Christian I cannot in good faith give any democrat my vote because the democratic platform is pro abortion, and I believe that abortion is murder. Do you know for instance that obama voted to block medical assistance to a child born alive during a botched late term abortion? That is murder to me. Since you apparently love America enough to vote, do you realize that your candidate refused to place his hand on his heart during the pledge of alegence? As a VietNam war veteran I find that sort of action equal to spitting in my face. I love my country and will fight again to defend this country if necessary. You believe that the current war we are fighting is "bushs war" When in truth it is clintons war. He just refused to acknowledge it and berried his head in the sand same as I fear obama will. We are fighting an enemy that wants nothing less that out total destruction, has no regard for human life and will kill all people on the earth that do not bow down and pray to their deity regardless of who or where they are. America I am sad to say has bought into the media hype about our next president and I will pray for him that he will see fit to do what is right in Gods eyes.

I am fully aware of that just because since I was 14 (im 30 now) I stopped putting my hand on my heart during the pledge. Simply because the words mean the same thing if your hands are in your pockets, or folded in front of you or on your heart. Are you seriously going to tell me the words mean something more if you hand is over an organ that pumps blood through your body? Or maybe your logic is that since your hand is over your heart the words will enter your heart through your hand and flow through your body and you will become even MORE of an American. So please Donn why does your hand need to be over your heart?

As for the abortion Obama didn't vote for that because there was already a law in Illinois that required medical attention for a fetus born in a botched abortion. I mean did he really have to make it a law twice?

Don't ask that sort of silly question to a veteran who has placed his life on the line for this country.
And the bill he voted against was to allow a second doctor to assist the newborn child. Thereby allowing the child to die with no medical attention.

My father, grand father and father in law are vets. I asked them if it offends them that I don't put my hand on my heart during the pledge and they all said basically the same thing to me. Do the words of the pledge mean anything to you and do you stand up for the pledge. I said of course the words mean something to me and yes I do stand up to show respect. All three of them said then don't worry about where your hands are then.

All we can do now is wait a year or two and see if I like him any better than now and if you still like him then. Sadly, I think we are headed for a serious depression.

The Dems have had 2 years already to head it off and I haven't seen anything so far that indicates they will do any better in the future.
It's not likely we will see any new refineries, additional drilling, nuclear power plants, nor any additional coal fired plants.

Enjoy your $5 a gallon gasoline and your cold, dark houses in the rolling black-outs. Maybe you can hug a tree and keep warm.

(Predictions based on past statements and actions by Obama, Reid and Pelosi. Predictions may be affected by policy CHANGES on the part of Dem leadership.)

I won't hug a tree I'll Hug my Chevy Volt and my Solar panels.

As a McCain supporter, I have to commend both candidates on their final hours.

President-elect Obama will receive from me the same skeptical support I give to all presidents once they win.
Carter got it, and lost it with his actions.
Reagan got it and kept it with his actions.
Bush Sr. got it and kept it until he screwed everyone at the end of the first Gulf War. Lot of people died when we pulled out of there leaving the job half-done...so he lost it then.
Clinton got it (begrudgingly) and almost immediately lost it sleezing up the place. I mean seriously, people, come on!
Bush Jr. got it and kept it most of the way through this fiasco he inherited and the issues he's faced. But in the meantime he's also managed to help spend our country into oblivion...so I can't say in the end he kept it. Not if I'm honest. But at least he's been consistent.
Obama gets it for now...and we'll be watching.
Obama doesn't have to do a good job "for the world" as suggested above. He just needs to do a good job for us. First.

(watching)

Ok, I don't usually get involved in political discussions; but I have to say something.First of all,Obama won by a landslide.If he was so "unamerican",why did so many people vote for him? The answer is that we wanted change. American has spoken.

But the market is down after the news of the election turn out.

The market has been an absolute roller coaster for the past month. Why would today be any different?

I really do hope that he can deliver, he is one of the few politicians I have ever had any faith in. Let's give this man a chance before we crucify him. McCain gave a very graceful and heartfelt speech of concession, and I respect him. Discuss your thoughts!


Rhetoric won - How can / could you have much "faith" in him, when he really has not done anything other than give good speeches, toe the party line, and associate himself with questionable people [ wright, ayers, rezko, raines ].

If you wanted someone who actually has accomplished something in government you should have voted McCain / and especially Palin.

Folks who voted based on rhetoric are going to end up disappointed. Sorry.
You see, liberals, socialists, communists expect the governemnt to take care of them.
Traditional JFK Democrats, conservatives, capitalists know that accomplishments are up to each individual.

Even his VP stated that POTUS is not a place for on the job training.

As to a "lanslide" - popular vote margin was by 6% - less than any complicit MSM poll predicted. Obama's electoral vote tally was less than Clinton's -
Look at Reagan - Mondale for the definition of a landslide.

You see, liberals, socialists, communists expect the governemnt to take care of them.
Why do you keep repeating that like some form of mantra when you know it's not true?

For all you crazy conservatives who are upset about universal healthcare and such. Ask yourself, "What would jesus do?" He would want to help others :), Would he not?

Jesus would want us as individuals to help others . He would not expect the state to do so. Where is the virtue in charity that is compelled ?

The market has been an absolute roller coaster for the past month. Why would today be any different?

The market had a record post-election drop yesterday.

What does that mean ? Probably not much . Humans are responsible for their own economic survival . Nothing the occupant of the Oval office does can change that reality . If you put your trust in the nanny-state you are bound to become cynically disillusioned.

I expect buyer's remourse will begin early winter or spring . I've been recalling President Clintoon's campaign pledge of a tax cut in the middle of a campaign . He took office on Jan. 20,1993 . Here is what he said about his tax cuts shortly there-after.

"I've worked harder on this than anything I've ever done in my life, and while I said I'd like to lower your taxes, I can't."
[Bill Clinton February 1993]

Gas is way down - thank you Obama!

He took office on Jan. 20,1993 . Here is what he said about his tax cuts shortly there-after.

"I've worked harder on this than anything I've ever done in my life, and while I said I'd like to lower your taxes, I can't."
[Bill Clinton Feburary 1993]

And don't forget "read my lips, no new taxes" Bush.

I didn't .That is why Clintoon got my vote in 1992. Above is why Bob Dole got it in 2006.

Gas is way down - thank you Obama!

Um, the prices came down before Hussein was elected.

Gas is way down - thank you Obama!
Gas prices are way down because the oil speculators finally got out of the market after they plunged the economy into a depression. If it were not for the housing market taking a big dump, THANKS BARNIE FRANK, NANCY PELOSI, HARRY REED, we would likely be rolling through a mild recession instead of the depression the likes of which we have not seen since the dust bowl days of the 1930's. This whole housing fiasco started in 1977 thanks to your beloved jimmiecarter forcing banks to start lending to questionable people. Was reinforced in 1993 by your beloved billclinton when he forced lending institutions to further reduce the home loan qualifications. Who is to blame for this economy?

asking

virtue is moral excellence. Efficiency is producing a desired effect. Jesus would never compelled us to give charitably even though he preached of the virtues of charity because compulsion eliminates the matter of choice.

Um, the prices came down before Hussein was elected.Not you too. :(

Not you too. :(

Are you disappointed in me NK? :confused:

I have a business to run outside of my nursing career, and with the current elected officials, I will have to declare bankruptcy if the dems get what they want.

What part of his new programs will force you into bankruptcy?
And why did you use his middle name?

Edit: my sister lives in the U.S. she has a Master of Nursing and a few other titles, she voted for Obama.

The current elected government will force our gun store out of business with their stringent laws and attempts at revoking and/or eliminating the second amendment as well as stricter gun laws for those of us responsible gun owners. Those laws will only harm us but help the thugs on the streets. Those thugs don't go through proper channels as do the responsible people, so we shouldn't be tightened up on.

I'm from the deep south, we call everyone by their middle names. LMAO.

Stringent gun laws shouldn't hurt your business into bankruptcy. If you really believe that they will revoke the second amendment then I don't know what to say to you.

I don't think, I know, we have the inside scoop. All guns right now are gone... our store cannot even stock for the christmas season.

It's hard to describe to a person who is not in the trade.

When on Friday, prior to the election there were over 40,000 firearms, hunting mostly, available from distributors to dealers, then on Monday, prior to the election there were virtually NONE to be found.

Look, people are stockpiling because they are afraid, afraid of their rights being taken away, afraid of manufacturers being shut down. All of these lawsuits against the manufacturer when it is the person pulling the trigger, usually the gang members buying Lorcen's on the street for $25, and we responsible people will be punished for their wrongdoings.

What was everyone's favorite name for President Bush ? Oh yeah... Dubya, when they were being polite .

You see now that a Democrat is in there will be a return to civility .

Why? It is part of the democrats party platform isn't it? Along with pro murder. If you really wanted to know what happens to a society when strict gun laws are enacted you need to simply look to England. Same for your socialist ajenda, Simply look to the North and see a failed health care system of Canada. The reason this country has been so great and powerful in the past is because of the freedoms given us in our Constitution. Want health care? GET A JOB! Want more money? GET EDUCATED AND GET A BETTER JOB! That is a simple enough concept for even the dumbest people in this country to understand. Well, maybe not after forty years of a failed liberal education system.

J9 they just reported that on the radio . Evidently the sale of guns cannot keep up with supply since yesterday.

J9 they just reported that on the radio . Evidently the sale of guns cannot keep up with supply since yesterday.

Tom, it started earlier than yesterday. You should see our showroom, virtually empty since two weeks ago and no end in sight.

Simply look to the North and see a failed health care system of Canada. You are sadly misinformed and spout stuff off the top of your head like it's a fact. I live in Canada and the universal healthcare system is far from failed. We are quite happy with it. Of course now someone will Google for every little hiccup that someone has had with our system and that's OK. At least everyone is covered and it's one less worry in our world. Oddly enough just because we have universal healthcare it doesn't seem to mean that we have a exorbitant unemployment rate as your theory stipulates.

Tom, it started earlier than yesterday. You should see our showroom, virtually empty since two weeks ago and no end in sight.
Are you guys expecting a civil war??

You are sadly misinformed and spout stuff off the top of your head like it's a fact. I live in Canada and the universal healthcare system is far from failed. We are quite happy with it. Of course now someone will google for every little hiccup that someone has had with our system and that's ok. At least everyone is covered and it's one less worry in our world. Oddly enough just because we have universal healthcare it doesn't seem to mean that we have a exorbitant unemployment rate as your theory stipulates.
If your wonderful universal healthcare system is so great why is it that so many Canadians, at least those than can afford it come to the USA to get the surgeries that are denied or postponed in Canada. In every small town across Canada the clinics are either permanently closed or only staffed my a nurse one or two days a week. That people have to wait months of an operation to save their lives? Yea, it is great everyone has health care, but only the rich or those living in major cities can actually get it. Bottom line at what cost is your glorious healthcare system? At last count you Canadians are paying about 55 to 60 % of your gross salary to the Government. Nothing is free my friend, NOTHING!

Are you guys expecting a civil war??
No ;just a bunch of bitter clingers.

no ;just a bunch of bitter clingers.Sounds nasty.

I live in Canada and the universal healthcare system is far from failed. We are quite happy with it.

You are one of a few. When living in Michigan I worked with many people who left Canada to get away from that system. One gal I worked with that was from Ontario said I was lucky to be in the US because my mastectomy would have to wait, I only had months to live if the operation was not completed immediately, and she was a NURSE.

Are we expecting a civil war? I don't know, and I will not guess. But I do live about 30 miles from where the stupid white supremesists (excuse my spelling been up for almost 24 hours) were arrested about a week ago. I live 75 miles from Pulaski Tennessee where the KKK rally is held every year. David Dukes is having a rally/convention this weekend in Memphis, 40 miles south of me.

I live in the very deep south where racism is still a part of society. Now, I was not raise that way, I just moved here by happenstance, but I can attest to the attitude of the community in which I live, and it is a very scary thought.

Nothing is free my friend, NOTHING!You're the only who thinks it's free. We all know we pay more taxes for it.

I live in the very deep south where racism is still a part of society. Now, I was not raise that way, I just moved here by happenstance, but I can attest to the attitude of the community in which I live, and it is a very scary thought.I made a conscious decision not to live anywhere where I, or my family, would live in constant fear.

Why? It is part of the democrats party platform isn't it? Along with pro murder. If you really wanted to know what happens to a society when strict gun laws are enacted you need to simply look to England. Same for your socialist ajenda, Simply look to the North and see a failed health care system of Canada. The reason this country has been so great and powerful in the past is because of the freedoms given us in our Constitution. Want health care? GET A JOB! Want more money? GET EDUCATED AND GET A BETTER JOB! That is a simple enough concept for even the dumbest people in this country to understand. Well, maybe not after forty years of a failed liberal education system.
That is right I said PRO MURDER! It is not worthy of a reddie, IT IS THE TRUTH! What would you call a botched late term abortion that allows the baby to die with no medical assistance when the doctors are right there in the room? That is MURDER my friend, and your new messiah is on record to allow that very thing to happen.

Sheesh, I don't live in constant fear, I live in no fear at all, well until Hussein takes the helm. I keep my doors unlocked 80% of the time (of course I have 3 dogs that everyone is afraid of if they don't know them). I live in rural America, my children can play outside without my supervision.

If I lived in Canada in 1997 when I had my cancer, I would be dead by now due to the long waiting lists for surgeries that are considered elective, and because my cancer was only stage 2, my mastectomy would have been considered elective back then. Maybe not now, but back then it was.


I made a conscious decision not to live anywhere where I, or my family, would live in constant fear.

Now, I ask you... with Hussein in the house, would you choose to live here?

Not too sure what you are referring to, maybe his middle name?


Then maybe you should not rate until you are sure . For someone who complains about red stars you sure distribute them liberally.

I happen to agree generally with what you are saying here

Now, I ask you....with Hussein in the house, would you choose to live here?
He's not in the house yet as you know but I could see myself in New England but not in the South. Of course I wouldn't go unless I had a secure job with excellent benefits, I wouldn't want to be sued to the poor house.

not in the South. Of course I wouldn't go unless I had a secure job with excellent benefits, I wouldn't want to be sued to the poor house.

So you are comparing the south with the poor? You have a terrible misconception of the south.

I made no such comparison! Geez...

Yes, you did, right here...


I could see myself in New England but not in the South.


Of course I wouldn't go unless I had a secure job with excellent benefits, I wouldn't want to be sued to the poor house.

Yes. I prefer New England. I don't prefer living in the South.
I would only go to live the U.S if I had a good job with good benefits. Now where did I compare the south with the poor?

Now, that makes a little better sense. I only live in the south because of employment. I was raised in upper Michigan and Alaska, by way of western canada, Banff to be exact. I have a good job with good benefits, otherwise I'd be right back in Alaska.

As long as we are both happy where we live. :)

Yes, NK, I would be happier back up north, but this is where my livelihood is right now. And you know, you are still one of my #1 members here at AMHD no matter our differences. At least we can discuss them in a rational manner.

But don't feed the haters with the middle name thing please.

The respect is mutual. :)

Well, maybe not after forty years of a failed liberal education system.Hello donn:

Sooo, I gather you think we'd be MORE educated if we threw out the LIBERAL idea of teaching of evolution, and taught creationism instead. Then we'd REALLY be competitive with the rest of the world in science, huh?

Donn, if that's what you think, you should NEVER speak the Pledge Of Allegiance again, whether your hand is over your heart or NOT. Because that kind of thinking is a BOOST for our enemies. Maybe you should pledge your allegiance to THEM. It has NOTHING to do with making US better.

excon

But don't feed the haters with the middle name thing please.

The respect is mutual. :)

Sorry, just a cultural social thingy with me... :p

Lots of good discussion here, many good points.

All I can say is that IF Obama is able to do HALF of what he wants to, we will find out why gun stores are selling out nationwide.

The reason we have the right to bear arms, is because the founders of this great nation could foresee that as time passes, and the people become comfortable, and pay less attention to what is going on with our government, that there would exist the strong probability that at some point in time, we would once again, have to take America back from a government gone out of control.

Sit back and watch.

As our economy crumbles with our new presidents plans to socialize our nation and redistribute the wealth, as the market continues to crash, as more and more jobs are lost to the punishment of success, there WILL be another American Revolution.

Remember, 46% of the citizens that voted, did not want this country to go down the path Obama has planned for all of us.

The only chance we have is that there are enough GOOD advisers to convince him to change some of his socialistic plans before it's too late.

"Fear the government, that fears YOUR guns"

Prog,
It's kind of funny that you are saying the same thing that 50% of the people were saying during the Bush administration. I guess the USA will never be happy.

J-9 - I have seen the quotes that are attributed to the Book of Revelations without references to their chapter and verse. I was unable to find these quotes anywhere in my Bible. Can you please give me the quotes with their chapter and verse?

Perhaps you are talking about different quotes than the ones I have had sent to me through mass emails. But the ones sent to me were made up quotes. It so hard for me to fathom people stooping to the level of fabricating Biblical verses to promote fear and hate.

J-9 - I have seen the quotes that are attributed to the Book of Revelations without references to their chapter and verse. I was unable to find these quotes anywhere in my Bible. Can you please give me the quotes with their chapter and verse?

Perhaps you are talking about different quotes than the ones I have had sent to me through mass emails. But the ones sent to me were made up quotes. It so hard for me to fathom people stooping to the level of fabricating Biblical verses to promote fear and hate.

I would love to after a little sleep. Been up since 2 yesterday and have to be back up at 2 today to work until 7 am tomorrow. But the second I get a breath I will find these chapters and verses for you.

I would appreciate that. Sleep tight.

I think we are forgetting the separation of CHURCH AND STATE. Stop trying to enforce Christian morality on everyone, because not everyone is a Christian.

Also, if you all want abortion banned so much, you'd better be willing to support safe haven drop offs at EVERY hospital in EVERY state, and be prepared to foot the bill for these children to go to orphanages until they are adopted, because if you force these mothers to have kids they don't want, it almost always leads to some sort of abuse. We don't need anymore thugs and human trash on the streets, and an abusive upbringing often leads to that.

I'd rather a few babies aborted, than worry about some thug bullying me or threatening my family on the street.

I'd rather a few babies aborted, than worry about some thug bullying me or threatening my family on the street.I personally believe no person should have to die to convenience another. But that's another debate.

If it were "a few babies" I might be able to swallow the unfairness of it and be OK, but in the US alone, it's a MILLION babies per year. I hope you stop and wrap your head around that. It's another holocaust, and it's killing our national spirit.

You're right, this is a morality issue. But I disagree it's a Christian, one. I don't always need a deity to point out to me when something is wrong. Abortion of a few a babies would be a tragedy, but the 1,000,000 in the US alone each year... that's the stuff of monster movies.

Abortion is fundamentally the ending of a human life without its permission. That's what IT IS. In every other instance in our country that's called murder... you can't even do that to evil murdering rapist pedophiles without decades of legal hoop-hopping.

If you try to apply the abuse / trash argument to a person who's standing in the room, it doesn't fly.

"Your honor, I can't keep from abusing my infant kids, I think it best if we just end their lives."
"He's a criminal, we can just kill him."
"They're orphans, let's euthanize them to save money."

None of that is acceptable, right?

Women's rights... check.
Black rights... check.
Children's rights... nah... only if it's convenient.

We can't even get half our country to acknowledge how conveniently they change their value system on this one issue in ways they won't do in others. They won't even admit it.

So I say again, this issue is killing our national spirit, our "moral" center is eroded to the point of irrelevancy. If it doesn't change, we won't have to wait forever, the universe won't tolerate it. Every major culture that fell from within started with moral degradation. We got that in spades, so the handwriting is on the wall if we don't wake up.

The value of any society can be measured SOLELY on how they treat the most defenseless of their people. An unborn child is the most defenseless of all. Judge that.

Women's rights....check.
Black rights......check.
Children's rights......nah....only if it's convenient.There are children's rights indeed, my wife works in that legal realm occasionally. But a blastula is obviously not a child and that's what you are referring to. That's a whole other debate.

Words are funny things aren't they? We can coin them anytime and give them any meaning we want.

A child isn't a man. Or is it?
An infant isn't a man. Or is it?
A fetus isn't a man. Or is it?

I know, as thinking creatures we have no choice but to make decisions and draw lines in the sand. It's part of our responsibility.

But 1,000,000... per YEAR. Something's wrong here.

Like I said, ban abortion. But repubs can foot the bill for safe haven drop offs for all parents who didn't want the child.

JBeaucaire I have to totally agree with you on this if the government lined up 1 million of our citizens and murdered them a year people would be outraged. Wait didn't that happen starting in 1939 in Germany! As for the bill for those children HighMax? How about instead of giving more welfare to lazy people we give the money to educate them and teach them how to work instead of spitting out more welfare babies. The failed bailout package could have more than paid for those children. One last thought, How many babies have been murdered since Rowe V Wade? If RVW had not happened how many more working citizens would we have to support the baby boomers that are retiring now? Think we would have a financial crisis on our hands with 5 million more working people in this country?

I personally believe no person should have to die to convenience another. But that's another debate.

What happened to that thought?

What happened to that thought?I know... I'm sorry. Hijack over. Sorry. ((*ashamed*))

Start a new thread, This one is old and boring now LOL

JBeaucaire I have to totally agree with you on this if the government lined up 1 million of our citizens and murdered them a year people would be outraged. Wait didn't that happen starting in 1939 in Germany! As for the bill for those children HighMax? How about instead of giving more welfare to lazy people we give the money to educate them and teach them how to work instead of spitting out more welfare babies. The failed bailout package could have more than paid for those children. One last thought, How many babies have been murdered since Rowe V Wade? If RVW had not happened how many more working citizens would we have to support the baby boomers that are retiring now? Think we would have a financial crisis on our hands with 5 million more working people in this country?

You are right on target, only the figure would be far more than 5 million. Probably at least 25 million if you concede that some of the 40 million plus would not yet be of working age.

So sad that a man that the people have elected as president of the United States, refuses to say the pledge of Allegence. Has associated himself with known terrorists, has refused to release any personal information, went to church under a pastor that preached hatred and bigotry, has as his platform socialism through and through, will increase welfare payments to millions of people who do not pay taxes, will spend this country into a depression that we will unlikely get out of for many many years, will run from our enemies at the drop of a hat, has NO experience in either foreign or domestic policy. I could go on and on, but choose instead to finish with this. Look at the stock market. Down 355 points so far. America will under Obama become the next third world country in the very near future.
The most capable candidate of them all was Palin. She has managed government, she has been commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard which is the first line of missle defense from the North. She has managed and made good decisions for the people of her state. Cannot say the same for Biden/obama or McCain.
My "agree" should have been a "disagree." (Obviously I don't give many disagrees.) You are so very wrong on everything you mention.

I honestly hope that he does an amazing job in his term, just to smear it in the right's face until the day I die. Their unbridled arrogance is really irritating.

The people Obama is beginning to choose for his administration plus what he said at today's first press conference show he's on the ball.

My "agree" should have been a "disagree." (Obviously I don't give many disagrees.) You are so very wrong on everything you mention.

Please provide factual data to prove your point!
There are pictures of him NOT repeating the pledge of Allegiance,
There is proof that his political career started in the home of a terrorist. There is proof that he got a sweetheart deal on the purchase of his home from a known gangster, There is proof that he sat under the teachings of an inflamatory preacher who spouted hatred and biggotry. There is proof that he associates with the American mouthpiece for a terrorist organization. So please disprove my statements with facts!

Please provide factual data to prove your point!
there are pictures of him NOT repeating the pledge of Allegence,
There is proof that his political career started in the home of a terrorist. There is proof that he got a sweetheart deal on the purchase of his home from a known gangster, There is proof that he sat under the teachings of an inflamatory preacher who spouted hatred and biggotry. There is proof that he associates with the American mouthpiece for a terrorist organization. So please disprove my statements with facts!
There are Internet pictures of Bush grabbing at his pants during the Pledge. What was THAT all about?? Btw, McCain didn't wear a flag pin during the three presidential debates. There are NO pictures of Obama not saying the Pledge, because such a thing is impossible to prove by a photo.

It has been disproved by independent sources, including the couple who sold their home to the Obamas, that there was no "sweetheart" deal. (ADDED: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/5)

How often did that minister spout hate and bigotry over the time the Obamas were members of the church? You know of only once. And of course, you are Rev. Wright's age and grew up black in the age before civil rights? (I'm white and grew up in the South during that time and even as a child was horrified at the goings on. There are still race incidents that defy the notion that we are all created equal and have equal rights. Here is one of many: James Byrd, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Byrd_Jr).)

Obama's political career began in a Chicago hotel (ADDED -- at the Ramada Inn, Lake Shore Drive in the Hyde Park neighborhood), not in Ayers' living room. That information is researchable and can be found in many locations.

Obama does not associate with "an American mouthpiece." In fact, that mouthpiece voted on Tuesday and told exit poll takers he wished he knew Obama better. (And please post a reference that the two associate.) (ADDED: Ayers, when interviewed after he voted on Tuesday -- "Pal around together? What does that mean? Share a milkshake with two straws? I think my relationship with Obama was probably like thousands of others in Chicago. And, like millions and millions of others, I wish I knew him better.")

But What About The Children!!?!?!

(deadpan)

But What About The Children!!?!?!

(deadpan)
The children are leaning toward getting a golden-doodle from a shelter.

The people Obama is beginning to choose for his administration plus what he said at today's first press conference show he's on the ball.
__________________



Imagine if Sarah Palin had made a SNAFU insult like Obama did with his Nancy Reagan off the cuff comment. She would be pilloried..

Quick... off the cuff without looking on the net... name all 23 nations in North America (no there aren't only 3)

YESS! Congrats to Borack Obama! I hope he can get us out of this great depression we are about to get into! I do believe that this day was one of the greatest days in history since I have been on this earth, it is a BIg deal considering the fact that it was ONLY 50 years ago that a black person couldn't even sit on the front of the bus and now we have one in office. He isn't even all the way black. But he made it and that I believe is a very big accomplishment for our african americans today. God bless Borack and I hope he can pull through for us! All we can do now is wait.

That is right I said PRO MURDER! It is not worthy of a reddie, IT IS THE TRUTH! What would you call a botched late term abortion that allows the baby to die with no medical assistance when the doctors are right there in the room? That is MURDER my friend, and your new messiah is on record to allow that very thing to happen.

Me myself, I am very much against abortion it is wrong. But don't you think we should have a choice? What if a little 15 yr old girl gets raped and ends up pregnant. Now you know she don't want this baby, and who is to say that this baby don't want to be put into a foster home and then years later he finds his mom and finds out he is a rapist child.what if it was your 15 yr old child that this happened to would you want her to keep it?? And who is to say that what if abortion does get banned that we won't have more and more babies ending up in dumpsters each year. Getting rid of an embryo is way different then finding an air breathing living child in the dumpster in your back yard... wouldnt you agree?

The people Obama is beginning to choose for his administration plus what he said at today's first press conference show he's on the ball.

I'm glad that he seems to want to address this issue right away.

Right now it is all talk - which he is very good at.

I remain skeptical but hope that in 6- 9 months we will be economically better.

I
I remain skeptical but hope that in 6- 9 months we will be economically better.

I hope so, too. But it took us a while to get into this mess, so I think it may take time to get out. Overall, we have let our infrastructure and education fall behind that of other developed nations, so we don't have the competitive advantages we had a few decades ago. We have a lot of catching up to do. And that means rolling up our shirt sleeves.

me myself, I am very much against abortion it is wrong. but dont you think we should have a choice? what if a little 15 yr old girl gets raped and ends up pregnant. now you kno she dont want this baby, and [what if] who is to say that this baby dont want to be put into a foster home and then years later he finds his mom and finds out he is a rapist child.what if it was ur 15 yr old child that this happend to would u want her to keep it??? and who is to say that what if abortion does get banned that we wont have more and more babies ending up in dumpsters each year. getting rid of an embryo is way diffrent then finding an air breathing living child in the dumpster in ur back yard....wouldnt you agree?
Kitten, you should really rethink the "what if" approach to deciding right and wrong. You need to be able to present your beliefs without so many hypothetical stories. True right and wrong has a backbone and can face your hypothetical situations with a mindset that isn't selfish, it's just right... or wrong.

Without hypothetical stories, I can state to a certainty my belief that "No person should have to forfeit their life to ease the discomfort of another person, especially not without their permission". Once you can state your beliefs that straightforwardly, throw some hypothetical thought at it THEN and I bet your answers are not so simple anymore.

The rape thing is a common fallback, and it doesn't hold up unless you believe one person should be made to forfeit their life to ease the life of another person... without their permission. Do you really think that, in those terms?

Getting rid of an embryo IS different from finding a baby in a dumpster. They're both wrong (in my worldview), but the first one let's us ignore how wrong it TRULY is because we don't see the person we're killing. Yeah, that's different.

The reality is that most people make adjustments in their values according to the specifics of a situation.

Here's one example:
The Cloudy Ethics of Utilitarianism | Wired Science from Wired.com (http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/10/the-dilemma-of.html)

But regardless of what you think the "right" answer is, it's normal and healthy to take many factors into account when making decisions about right and wrong. People who never do this are ideologues and tend to be rigid and unmerciful. JB, You don't sound like that in most of your posts, so I suspect you make more adjustments than you may realize.

As Emerson said, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
I do not think you have a little mind! But I do think he makes a point.

Most people (including me) use hypothetical situations to "prove" their point. The problem is that these situations are tailor-made to force someone to choose what you want or they look bad.

Movies like Saw do the hypothetical much better. Here, you have to choose intense pain right now, or die. YOU die. Not someone else. Or... wait. Some of those Saw situations WERE between one person dying or another. And again, you had to do something horrible to yourself FIRST to get the right to choose someone else's death.

My point is this, hypothetical always assume one fact I do not ascribe to - what's best for me = what's best.

Here's a hypothetical for you, one I KNOW many, many people would choose wrongly.

You're in a room with two buttons.

One button is marked "lose your eyes and go free".
The other button is marked "some stranger you don't know dies and you go free unharmed and with $10,000 for your trouble".

Which button do you push?
This stuff is impossible. We decide for ourselves as primary importance (else the Saw movies wouldn't be very interesting).

We forget that WE could be the "stranger" that has to die because someone else pushed a button.

The reality is that most people make adjustments in their values according to the specifics of a situation. My point exactly. This is the right thing to do when you are making choices that affect yourself. This freedom to adjust your thinking HAS to be short-checked when you're talking about doing something to others without their willing participation. You HAVE to change your thinking.

I do.

People who never do this are ideologues and tend to be rigid and unmerciful. JB, You don't sound like that in most of your posts, so I suspect you make more adjustments than you may realize.
I agree, I probably do. Just not on this issue.

It was the heart of mercy that has already let my family face this issue and choose properly, choose for the unborn to have life even though those of us here already could opt differently.

You intimate that telling someone to put others ahead of themselves is unmerciful in the case of abortion. I correct that thought that it is mercy to the unborn that needs the most attention.

As Emerson said, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
I do not think you have a little mind! But I do think he makes a point.
No, I don't. Yes, he does make a point. And it's a point I hope everyone who so easily and unmercifully place their own comfort/convenience/mental stress/life options above the life of unborns takes to heart.

I do not think that an early embryo with no brain or functioning nervous system is a person or a child or even a "baby." I do not accept the catholic teaching that God adds a soul at the moment of conception. Given that, I think it's acceptable to abort an early embryo. I do not consider it murder in any sense of that word.

A fertilized egg cells is not more alive than an unfertilized egg cell. Dividing a few times likewise makes it neither more alive nor more human. An unfertilized egg cell or sperm cell is already fully human and fully alive. What they are not are persons. Mashing them together doesn't give them personhood. They are cells.

As the embryo develops and forms a fetus (that has the outlines of all the organs) and the fetus becomes more babylike, abortion becomes less acceptable to me. I think this is the case for most Americans. As it happens, this is exactly what Roe v Wade says: that first trimesters abortions are legal, mid term abortions may be regulated, and late terms ones are banned except in extraordinary circumstances like the trolley car example I posted. Many women have died so that infants could live. Many infants have died so that the mother could live. Doctors would nearly always seek to save both. These are awful, awful situations and I don't see how there can be any right answer.

Either way, you are sacrificing one person to save another and violating your principle. JB, Are you saying that the baby is ALWAYS the more valuable person in such a situation? How would you justify such a position? (And of course these situations are extremely rare. The vast majority of abortions involve early embryos that are not babies.)

A fertilized egg cells is not more alive than an unfertilized egg cell. Dividing a few times likewise makes it neither more alive nor more human. An unfertilized egg cell or sperm cell is already fully human and fully alive. What they are not are persons. Mashing them together doesn't give them personhood. They are cells.

The vast majority of abortions involve early embryos that are not babies.)
This is probably why we don't have funerals for miscarriages which are actually the body's way to abort. Yes, there will be personal and private mourning for the potential human person that will never be, but there is no public outcry or upset.

The question remains: When does a fetus become human?

Kitten, you should really rethink the "what if" approach to deciding right and wrong. You need to be able to present your beliefs without so many hypothetical stories. True right and wrong has a backbone and can face your hypothetical situations with a mindset that isn't selfish, it's just right...or wrong.

Without hypothetical stories, I can state to a certainty my belief that "No person should have to forfeit their life to ease the discomfort of another person, especially not without their permission". Once you can state your beliefs that straightforwardly, throw some hypothetical thought at it THEN and I bet your answers are not so simple anymore.

The rape thing is a common fallback, and it doesn't hold up unless you believe one person should be made to forfeit their life to ease the life of another person...without their permission. Do you really think that, in those terms?

Getting rid of an embryo IS different from finding a baby in a dumpster. They're both wrong (in my worldview), but the first one let's us ignore how wrong it TRULY is because we don't see the person we're killing. Yeah, that's different.





YOU and other people may like to believe with the right and wrongs but don't you have to think about situations like these to think about the right or the wrong? Isn't it that every time you come up to solution to do something there are also consiquences that you have to think about. I know that in some cases abortion in not the right thing to do but I
Also believe that it should be the persons choice bc/ we don't know what kind of situation they are in. I personally rather hear about someone having an abortion then hear abut someone dropping their baby off in a dumpster and that is what I believe. Nobody has to agree with me I was just puttin my input in on the situation and maybe if someone read my input they would think about the other conquences that can occur when you make the decision.

Either way, you are sacrificing one person to save another and violating your principle.
No, sacrificing one person to save another should always be with intention and permission. When no permission is available (rare, but occurs), the most authoritative and connected person on site must choose. Harsh, and the choice should not be ridiculed afterward. It is what it is.

Even though I could posit most parents would say "save my child" if they were given the opportunity, that's no help when they can't actually answer and you have to choose. Still, the principle isn't broken simply because a real-life or hypothetical situation appears to make it so.

JB, Are you saying that the baby is ALWAYS the more valuable person in such a situation? How would you justify such a position? (And of course these situations are extremely rare. The vast majority of abortions involve early embryos that are not babies.)I don't have to justify it. I simply state the facts as I perceive them.

My life is not more important than the baby's, so I have no right to end it out of hand. Minus one of those imminent, life-ending scenarios we like to paint (which you've already pointed out are truly rare), without that, abortion is a decision of saying the life of the unborn is completely irrelevant if it is unwanted.

I understand how people defend that mindset, 1,000,000 US abortions per year say it's doable. I just don't get it.

In most abortions, it is a case of lifestyle choice. I'm suggesting that as such, we should rethink it.

Is the baby ALWAYS more important? How about we settle on equality? How about it's JUST AS important as mine? If we accept that (and most pro-choice don't), if we accept that premise, then how do we justify ending their life if they have every right to their existence?

Remember, at its core, we're comparing pain and discomfort and stress and unhappiness of one person to the death of another.

Which button would you push?

I [would] personally rather hear about someone having an abortion then hear abut someone dropping their baby off in a dumpster and that is what I believe.And respectfully, I suggest they are the same thing. In a world where I'm not more important than others, it doesn't matter how they end up in the dumpster (mother's hand or a doctor's), it's the same result. Someone is dead because someone else wanted it so.

Thus, for me, they are the same thing.

My life is not more important than the baby's, so I have no right to end it out of hand.
I think I disagree. If I were raped and got pregnant because of it and carried the child to term, every second of every day of every month for nine months I would relive that rape. I'm guessing it would not go well for me emotionally and spiritually, even as pragmatically German as I am. If raped and pregnant and if I chose to abort during the first trimester, I would feel guilt about the potential human I would cause to not exist, but that guilt would dissipate with the knowledge that God saw what had happened to me and knows my heart.

But then, I've never been raped and gotten pregnant from it and have never had to make a decision about an unwanted pregnancy.

Too bad the rapist doesn't get pregnant instead and have to carry the child to term. That would cut down on rapes, methinks.

Should the fetus have to pay for the crime of rape?

Rape is about 1 % of all abortions - how about the other 99%?

I think I disagree. If I were raped and got pregnant because of it and carried the child to term, every second of every day of every month for nine months I would relive that rape. I'm guessing it would not go well for me emotionally and spiritually, even as pragmatically German as I am. If raped and pregnant and if I chose to abort during the first trimester, I would feel guilt about the potential human I would cause to not exist, but that guilt would dissipate with the knowledge that God saw what had happened to me and knows my heart.

But then, I've never been raped and gotten pregnant from it and have never had to make a decision about an unwanted pregnancy.See, arguing from hypothetical situations is pointless. Even you stumbled when you realized if you ACTUALLY lived the situation, you might not react the way you predict.

Sure, God knows our heart. So do we, right now. The rape hypothetical feels extreme enough to support the idea that it would be OK to end the life of the unwanted baby, I just know that it doesn't.

Unlike you, our family has faced this situation. So we know. The baby still has every right to exist and we realized that.

I think maybe you understand when I say, "My mental stress/comfort/convenience/LIFE is not more important than the baby's life, so I have no right to end it out of hand."

Should the fetus have to pay for the crime of rape?

Rape is about 1 % of all abortions - how about the other 99%?

It's actually less than that. The 1% covers abortions attributed to rape and incest, and incest is the more common occurrence resulting in pregnancy than rape due to repetition. So statistically, rape abortions are less than .5%.

So, 99.5% of abortions are defended by a situation that doesn't apply to them. I agree, the other 99.5% are making the lifestyle choice and pushing the second button.

"My mental stress/comfort/comfort is NOT more important than the baby's life, so I have NO right to end it out of hand."


Obama does not believe this. Palin does and lives it.

Obama does not believe this. Palin does and lives it.Irrelevant. Obama and Palin are individuals. WE decide these things, that's why I'm here talking to YOU guys about it instead of them.

Obama will not govern in a bubble, any more than Bush did. We can't attribute our worldview right/wrong based on someone else's. Even someone who agrees with you. People are often elected on single-issue debates like this only to discover there's an entirely different job waiting for them. That's our fault for putting the debate on the political platform as if that's where it's going to get solved. It's not.

You have to figure this stuff out outside of hypotheticals and political debates, then live those choices, the hard ones. Ourselves.

No, sacrificing one person to save another should always be with intention and permission. When no permission is available (rare, but occurs), the most authoritative and connected person on site must choose. Harsh, and the choice should not be ridiculed afterward. It is what it is.

...Is the baby ALWAYS more important? How about we settle on equality?

I was asking if you can legitimately/morally make a law that always favors one over the other and I think you agreed that you cannot.

But I didn't understand your argument about permission.

If you can only save one life and you take their moral equivalency as a given, if the baby is actually a baby--i.e. third trimester*--how does permission enter into it? Is your argument about permission that you can ask the mother's permission to kill her so the baby can live, and that she can and should say yes? Whereas the baby cannot give permission and therefore must be saved? I don't know how else to interpret what you are saying. How is permission relevant?

So, let's simplify and say the mother is unconscious. Then you say it is the most "authoritative and connected person on site." But that sounds like the head of the hospital. Why would that person have any special insights and why would you choose that person, who is probably primarily concerned with budget and personnel, most of the time?

Seriously, I am not clear why you are choosing one outsider to decide something like this. If it was your wife and your baby, wouldn't you want to make the decision with your wife and her doctor? For example, maybe the baby has some defects that will make it suffer terribly and die soon, and you and your wife have 5 other kids who need their mother. Or, on the other hand, you have no other children, and the mother has cancer which will kill her in three months anyway. Do you really want a stranger making those decisions for you?

Those are the particulars that, I think, make banning late term abortion decisions intrusive. Clearly, we want to limit and avoid late abortions, and Roe v Wade enables states to do that. But only the most extreme ideologue would argue with that the person saved always has to be the mother or, likewise, always the baby.

*I'd like to discuss early embryos separately, because that raises different issues. Only about 1% of abortions occur after 19 weeks.

After reading this entire thread I can't believe that abortions are being agrue. This agruement has already been done in many threads throughout the Family&Friends board.

I think it is the female right to choose whether to aboard or not. Maybe there would be fewer abortions if people were more educated about sex and it start from the teens. Parents should take the time out and explained to their kids the myths about sex instead of pretending like their child isn't doing it. They should be more active in their child life. I worked at an abortion clinics years ago and many of the patients were under 18, don't know the statics now, but it was due to their lack of knowledge about sex. If you read the teen board you would see things like "me and my boyfriend had unprotected sex last night but he did pull out, can I get pregnan?" Now my question is where is the parent while her daughter is out having sex?

Parents need to step up and be open with their kids and while you can't stop them they can at least educate them. If they feel uncomfortable then they can take them to a gyn doctor to explain things and getting their child birth control isn't a bad idea. It got so bad a sex education sticky was form so people can ask their questions about sex and hopefully that would help some people but more needs to be done and maybe then the number of abortions will drop. That's all I am saying about the matter because this isn't the topic.

See, arguing from hypothetical situations is pointless. Even you stumbled when you realized if you ACTUALLY lived the situation, you might not react the way you predict.

Sure, God knows our heart. So do we, right now. The rape hypothetical feels extreme enough to support the idea that it would be OK to end the life of the unwanted baby, I just know that it doesn't.

Unlike you, our family has faced this situation. So we know. The baby still has every right to exist and we realized that.

I think maybe you understand when I say, "My mental stress/comfort/convenience/LIFE is not more important than the baby's life, so I have no right to end it out of hand."
I put in the "stumble" as you so lovingly called it (but I did it deliberately, so it was NOT a stumble).

I want to be able to make the choice. I don't want you to make the choice for me.

I still think you understand my point, though. (wink)

I still think you understand my point, though. (wink)
I totally understand your point, but you cannot decide for the rest of the world. You don't get that privilege. You can decide only for you.

I won't hug a tree I'll Hug my Chevy Volt and my Solar panels.

This is more hype. The Dems have stood in the way of more generating capicity for a long time now. They say we need solar and wind. Good, but you have to have reserve capicity for those times when the wind stills and the clouds are heavy.

Our power grid is nearly at capicity now and has been for some time, resulting in rolling black outs or brown outs.

Now, what do you think is going to happen when several million people buy those Chevy Volts? Unless we get more generation plants at the same time, there will not be enough electriticy to go around. Right now, we are being encouraged to cut back on air conditioning usage.

So unless the Dems now do what they have so far been unwilling to do, lots of luck with that Volt.

So unless the Dems now do what they have so far been unwilling to do0
Don't you know how solar works?

As for doing anything, like Cass Elliott sang --

There's a new world comin'
And it's just around the bend
There's a brand new mornin'
That belongs to you and me
A new world comin'
The one we've had vision of
Comin' in peace
Comin' in joy
Comin' in love.

Galveston1 disagrees: You like the Clinton retreads?
Yo, Mr. Gal Sourpuss, did you notice who's driving now?

Yo, Mr. Gal Sourpuss, did you notice who's driving now?Hes' abusing the reddies tonight - what an angry little man.

President elect Obama had better change his mind (or at least convince investors that he has) on the subject of highert taxes on the wealthier people. He had BETTER do that BEFORE the end of the year, or we may all be sorry!

What do you think investors are going to do with their portfolios if they know they will pay substantially higher taxes in the coming year than they would now?

They will do what ANY sensible person would do. They will sell NOW. That should cause a really sharp drop in the stock market, and the domino effect will hit everyone.

Hes' abusing the reddies tonight - what an angry little man.
It's okay. Obama's election's got me feelin' real real good. Even Gal can't mess my 'do. Thanks, NK, for watchin' my back.

I see who is driving. My feet are pushing the floor board!

Let's see if your euphoria lasts past the first 6 months of his administration.

They will do what ANY sensible person would do. They will sell NOW. Sell their investments and keep the cash in a 2% account? I don't think so. You seem to love selling doom and gloom.

Sell their investments and keep the cash in a 2% account? I don't think so. You seem to love selling doom and gloom.

Selling doom and gloom?

I think not. The doom and gloom is a reality if Obama gets his way.

If I had anything in this market, I'd sure be selling NOW before
The cap gains tax MORE THAN DOUBLES! Perhaps as high as 20%
That has been predicted.

You really wouldn't have to be very intelligent to sell NOW.

You really wouldn't have to be very intelligent to sell NOW.You're missing the point - sell now and do what with your money?

You're missing the point - sell now and do what with your money?
Anything!

Stuff it under your mattress, buy some antique guns, spend it all on gold, ANYTHING!

At least if you sell and get out before the huge increase, even having it under your
Bed you'll be better off, wouldn't you?

No. Read some beginner finance books.

Edit to add: actually follow your own advice and report back.

I see who is driving. My feet are pushing the floor board!!

Let's see if your euphoria lasts past the first 6 months of his administration.
You're not even in the same vehicle!

I have no doubt he can and he will.

Selling doom and gloom?

I think not. The doom and gloom is a reality if Obama gets his way.

If I had anything in this market, I'd sure be selling NOW before
the cap gains tax MORE THAN DOUBLES!! Perhaps as high as 20%
that has been predicted.

You really wouldn't have to be very intelligent to sell NOW.
Mr. Sourpuss has turned into Mr. Doom & Gloom.

No. Read some beginner finance books.

edit to add: actually go ahead and follow your own advice and report back.

I don't think a beginner finance would be useful, I think I understand fairly well.

The more Obama talks, the more the market suffers, and this is all before he even gets
Started with his plans.

So, leave your money in a falling market, and then pay the Obama double tax when you have to sell it next year after the small business that employs you goes bankrupt.

Is there really a book out there that will tell me this?

I don't think a beginner finance would be useful, I think I understand fairly well.

The more Obama talks, the more the market suffers, and this is all before he even gets
started with his plans.

So, leave your money in a falling market, and then pay the Obama double tax when you have to sell it next year after the small business that employs you goes bankrupt.

Is there really a book out there that will tell me this?
I can't wait to read your posts in six months.

I can't wait to read your posts in six months.

Likewise!

[QUOTE=J

Thus, for me, they are the same thing.[/QUOTE]

And, respectfully, if I put two petri dishes in front of you, one containing a human oocyte and one containing a human zygote, not only could you not identify which one was the "baby" you wouldn't be able to see the "baby." A cell is not a baby. There is no bright line in this problem, which is what makes it all so difficult.

Galveston1 wrote:

The earlliest cells are a BABY. The only thing needed is TIME.

So is a person a corpse? The only thing needed is time, by your reasoning.

You are factually incorrect and should not have given me a reddie no matter how upset by what I said. Look up "baby" in the dictionary. It is not a cell.

And, respectfully, if I put two petri dishes in front of you, one containing a human oocyte and one containing a human zygote, not only could you not identify which one was the "baby" you wouldn't be able to see the "baby." A cell is not a baby. There is no bright line in this problem, which is what makes it all so difficult.

The difference between our arguments isn't one captured by a petri dish test. The difference is that some people on the planet choose what is best for themselves and use science and terms and calendars and "what if" stories to make it reasonable, most of all to themselves. And some people say all human life is equally precious. All of their arguments stem from trying to protect the rights of a defenseless zygote from the idea of convenience that would deny its existence.

That's the difference. Some argue that their being here on this planet now in full form and having "problems" make it OK to minimalize those who haven't finished forming. I don't allow that grandiose a perspective of myself.

As for the petri dish, I wouldn't need to be able to "eyeball" the difference to know that if one of them was zygote, and I didn't know which, my responsibility is in determining which one IS and giving it the shot at full formation all human zygotes deserve. Equally. So until then, I'd protect them both.

I'm crazy that way.

I'm crazy that way.
But do you have the right to tell me that I have no choice in the matter?

And some people say all human life is equally precious. All of their arguments stem from trying to protect the rights of a defenseless zygote from the idea of convenience that would deny its existence.

Then (1) why don't you defend other human cells? Why don't you defend the rights of sperm cells and oocytes?

And (2) why doesn't the prolife movement object to the fertility industry's longstanding practice of generating excess embryos that are then frozen indefinitely like little Woody Allens (in Sleeper). There are something like half a million "left over" frozen embryos. I think that's creepy. Many of their parents are grandparents now and nobody wants them except the stem cell industry. Why don't you tell these fertility clinics to stop making "babies" destined for a weird test-tube existence. When their parents die they will have to be thrown out, yet nobody objects to that. How can that be okay?



As for the petri dish, I wouldn't need to be able to "eyeball" the difference to know that if one of them was zygote, and I didn't know which, my responsibility is in determining which one IS and giving it the shot at full formation all human zygotes deserve. Equally. So until then, I'd protect them both.

I'm crazy that way.

:) I don't think you are crazy, but I think you have taken a strong intellectual position that can never really be tested in the real world.

But anyway, how far do you imagine yourself going to protect this oocyte from harm? What would you do to protect it? Just curious.

But do you have the right to tell me that I have no choice in the matter?

Hehe, I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but I can see the bristles rising behind the keyboard...

I know you keep hammering that point. Nobody here on the forum can tell anyone else "what to do"... heaven forbid. But I am consistently interested in the opposing viewpoint.

Lol, um... I hafta disagree with those who thought palin would have made an acceptable vice president...
The woman could barley make a speech without totally comfusing the audience and herself... she'd ramble on about things no one understood..
I have no disrespect for this woman though, I just do not see how she thought the job of vice president was acceptable for her.

Then (1) why don't you defend other human cells? Why don't you defend the rights of sperm cells and oocytes?
One battle at a time. Someday perhaps our culture will reach a maturity level that makes that kind of respectfulness for all life possible. For now, that's beyond the scope of our discussion. Good point, though. I'll have to keep that in mind.

And (2) why doesn't the prolife movement object to the fertility industry's longstanding practice of generating excess embryos that are then frozen indefinitely... I think that's creepy.
I do, too.

When their parents die they will have to be thrown out, yet nobody objects to that. How can that be okay?I object to it. I agree. It isn't OK.

I think you have taken a strong intellectual position that can never really be tested in the real world.In my life and that of my family, it has been tested. I am not offering an intellectual position only, I present to you my real-life beliefs, one's I've had to live. This is tough stuff.

Heaven forbid you misunderstand. I don't actually think this discussion will ever end with a legislative response. Our culture has to outgrow this issue. Nobody is ever going to successfully tell you or anyone else who wants an abortion they can never get one... and when it does happen, the whole battle will simply rage on.

No, this will continue until everyone decides for themselves "no, I don't need to do this." That's when it will end. Until then, we'll just keep up the discourse, OK?

But anyway, how far do you imagine yourself going to protect this oocyte from harm? What would you do to protect it? Just curious.As I said, it's the zygotes that are potential humans. Left to their environment they would become people, so that makes them equal in my mind. Until such time that they can speak for themselves or die of natural causes, they deserve all the support and protection we give to all our children until such time as they can speak for themselves.

So, for now, I'll at least keep calmly presenting their side to those on the other side. No harm in hearing the other side, right?

Hehe, I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but I can see the bristles rising behind the keyboard....
No hackles, no bristles. Sorry.

I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home and have been surrounded by conservatives nearly all my life. That's their language you are using. They want to be the deciders for everyone. I hope science will someday solve this puzzle of exactly when life begins.

No hackles, no bristles. Sorry.

I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home and have been surrounded by conservatives nearly all my life. That's their language you are using. They want to be the deciders for everyone. I hope science will someday solve this puzzle of exactly when life begins.

I prefer to believe science won't be needed to resolve this for us, eventually we'll all move to the 'err on the side of life" because so many of our OTHER issues culturally will be resolved, too. I know... pipe dream... a couple hundred years for that, I'm sure.

Meanwhile, we can just keep talking to people who AREN'T in those hypothetical extreme situations and see if can coax a few more lives into existence. Worth the effort, I say.

As you can tell, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do. I'm grass-rooting the position of the unborn as worth being considered. In the end, people will do what they will.

On this issue, I'm pretty consistent, but I'm not an angry arguer. Not needed. Watch how some people get really angry... tough situation.

Yay, JB. It's a beautiful morning, and I think we've both said our peace.
Peace.

lol, um... i hafta disagree with those who thought palin would have made an acceptable vice president.....
the woman could barley make a speach without totally comfusing the audience and herself.... she'd ramble on about things no one understood..
i have no disrespect for this woman though, i just do not see how she thought the job of vice president was acceptable for her.

She accepted the position because she was asked to by her party. I think she was honored, as anyone would have been. She is not a stupid woman, I'm sure she knew she was in over her head.

McCain's first choice was Tom Ridge. His second choice was Joe Lieberman. The RNC nixed both of them. They wanted Palin because she was 1. A woman and 2. Conservative on social issues.

McCain and Ridge would have made a very powerful ticket and probably would have won.

She accepted the position because she was asked to by her party. I think she was honored, as anyone would have been. She is not a stupid woman, I'm sure she knew she was in over her head.

McCain's first choice was Tom Ridge. His second choice was Joe Lieberman. The RNC nixed both of them. They wanted Palin because she was 1. A woman and 2. Conservative on social issues.

McCain and Ridge would have made a very powerful ticket and probably would have won.

I disagree with your assessment. Neither Tom Ridge nor Joe Lieberman would have energized the conservative base. I don't know how many I speak for, but I seriously considered sitting this one out until Palin came on board. Conservatives are really tired of left of center politicians being touted as conservative. They are only conservative in relation to the far left. Palin is a breath of fresh air, and I hope we get to see her further involved in the political process.

HI 450donn, what failed health care system in Canada ? I have lived here all my life and now 66, there is no failed health care system as far as I know, and I would be the first to know, not only benefiting from socialized medicine, but working in the healthcare sector.

ms. tickle

I disagree with your assessment. Neither Tom Ridge nor Joe Lieberman would have energized the conservative base. I don't know how many I speak for, but I seriously considered sitting this one out until Palin came on board. Conservatives are really tired of left of center politicans being touted as conservative. They are only conservative in relation to the far left. Palin is a breath of fresh air, and I hope we get to see her further involved in the political process.

I guess I was speaking for myself. While he would have lost your vote, he would have gained mine.

I was actually nervous that he may pick Ridge I think McCain would have definitely won PA with Ridge. When he announced Palin as his VP it just put a big smile on my face.

hI 450donn, what failed health care system in Canada ? I have lived here all my life and now 66, there is no failed health care system as far as I know, and I would be the first to know, not only benefiting from socialized medicine, but working in the healthcare sector.

ms. tickle

OK if as you say the health care system is just fine then please tell me why Canadian doctors and nurses are leaving Canada in droves to set up practice here in the USA? Why is it that those that can afford it come south of the border for surgeries that the Canadian system says they cannot have. Or are delayed for 12 to 16 weeks? If the system is so good, why is it that in many small towns across Canada the clinics are only open one or two days a week? How much of your goros salary goes for the health care system in Canada?

Believe me I am not trying to be argumentative, I would like to be enlightened!

Hello 450:

I'd be curious what your sources are for the data you present. Surely there have been studies. Which ones say that? I'm not trying to argue. I would like to be enlightened.

excon

OK if as you say the health care system is just fine then please tell me why Canadian doctors and nurses are leaving Canada in droves to set up practice here in the USA?
Leaving in droves? I don't see that and I have people in medecine in my family AND I work for the government. What makes you say that?


Why is it that those that can afford it come south of the border for surgeries that the Canadian system says they cannot have. What surgeries are those? Yes those with money explore their options, no question about that but please supply stats from sources for your allegations and be precise about which operations.

If the system is so good, why is it that in many small towns across Canada the clinics are only open one or two days a week?This proves that you have no idea how our system works. I live in a smallish town and I have 2 hospitals and 3 clinics to choose from... and that's when it's after hours at my GP's office.

How much of your goros salary goes for the health care system in Canada?Yup, we pay for our benefit and we like it. It's a bid weigh of our backs. We see our americans friends spending hours and days gathering paperwork and begging to have a procedure covered by their insurance. And then there's the lawyers and the court time...


Believe me I am not trying to be argumentative, I would like to be enlightened!No I think you like to be argumentative.

By the way, in case you all didn't see this. The median income for plumbers is $42,000, an income group that Obama carried by 10 points. He likewise carried those who make more than $200,000 a year by 6 points.

And of course 66% of 18-29 year olds voted for him.

This American Moment — The Surprises - Timothy Egan Blog - NYTimes.com (http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/this-american-moment-the-surprises/)

I'd be curious what your sources are for the data you present. Surely there have been studies. Which ones say that? I'm not trying to argue. I would like to be enlightened.
No I think you like to be argumentative.
Maybe he does, but you didn't answer his question either. Would you mind pointing out your sources. I'm interested in reading up on that as well... and you sound informed. Can you point them out to us?

JB,
You might want to edit your post, the inner quote is from excon not from 450donn. And yes, I too am waiting for his sources.

I only know one thing. I didn't work for l0 years being a caregiver for an elderly parent and I never had to worry about going to a doctor, or hospital. It was all covered, but I do recall when I did work that my employer paid my OHIP l00%. And by the way, now that I am over 65 my OHIP coverage gives me my meds at $2.66 each 90 count prescription. Same as anyone over 65 in Canada.

I chose to work past 65 so still working and don't pay any healthcare premiums and am not required to.

Our OHIP information is public record and can be googled in case anyone wants to to do some investigating and record seeking.

I live in a small town in Ontario and we have a state of the art hospital, a pretty good emergency care service there as well, so don't really need after hour clinics, however, there are two available within a 25 min. drive.

I am too, as some here know, in the healthcare sector and I have never heard of a mass exodus from Canada of Doctors and Nurses.

As for surgery in the States, yes, I have some elderly clients who have the money and time to seek quick care over the border. That is their option and nothing to do with being unable to have elective care done here.

here are a few links that you can read at your leisure.
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007 (http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html) - 80kwww.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/20/health/main681801.shtml?cmp=EM8705 - 92k - www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/international/americas/28canada.html thetyee.ca/News/2006/04/11/CanadasHealthCareCrisis/ - 41kwww.pbs.org/healthcarecrisis/Exprts_intrvw/s_glied.htm - 45k

450donn, I don't know why you are so hell bent to prove our healthcare system flawed, or in some cases non existent. Yes, I read the articles you put up. I liked the one about the woman who was diagnosed with sleep apnea but had to wait four months for treatment. We have a sleep clinic in town and people diagnosed with sleep apnea are treated right away. It is right next door to our after hours clinic; and the one about the lady waiting for cancer treatment. Kingston is our nearest cancer treatment centre where I live, and my clients go there throughout the week (and can stay in a hostel or go back home) after being treated. Another cancer treatment attached to Oshawa General Hospital.

I am secure in my knowledge of our healthcare system and know I will be treated properly when and if the time comes.

Now again, why do you want to prove that our heathcare system doesn't work ?

Plus a lot of those articles are op-ed pieces, not studies. Yes, we are considering a limited public/private setup is certain instances, but at least we don't have 40 million people without access to healthcare for fear of bankruptcy. Canadians love Canadians, what can I say.

why do you want to prove that our heathcare system doesnt work ?

This is a really good question. I'm hoping 450donn answers it.

Maybe because the thought that it doesn't have to be the way it is in the US is unacceptable? It would be easier to accept that the problems with our system are simply a tradeoff, different problems.

People can often accept what is inevitable. But our health care system only works for some of the people some of the time, and it's problems are not all inevitable, except as a consequence of greed. I remember in the 80s, the major American HMOs had so much cash that Wall Street was trying to guess where they were going to put it because all that cash was expected to move the market.

Featured Article - WSJ.com (http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006813)

Yes, an opinion piece quoting the a Canadian supreme court judge:




"Access to a waiting list is not access to health care," wrote Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin for the 4-3 Court last week. Canadians wait an average of 17.9 weeks for surgery and other therapeutic treatments, according the Vancouver-based Fraser Institute. The waits would be even longer if Canadians didn't have access to the U.S. as a medical-care safety valve. Or, in the case of fortunate elites such as Prime Minister Paul Martin, if they didn't have access to a small private market in some non-core medical services. Mr. Martin's use of a private clinic for his annual checkup set off a political firestorm last year.




More info on gov healthcare - note that this is in Obama's own home state:

Durbin: Second Surgeon under Investigation at Illinois VA Hospital  (10-29-2007) (http://durbin.senate.gov/showRelease.cfm?releaseId=286262)





Durbin and Obama have publicly voiced their dissatisfaction with the VA’s response to pointed questions about how the agency handled a background check before hiring Veizaga-Mendez. The senators also are concerned about the overall quality of care veterans get at the hospital and perhaps elsewhere in the VA system




Gov/ Va can't compete with private sector pay for specialists so they really have chronic scarcity and trouble retaining specialists.

If "Universal healthcare" can't compete on the basis of salary or on the basis of benefits and lifestyle issues [ less hours, less call ] - the next generation of college undergrads will not be willing to take on hundred's of thousands of dollars in debt, 7 years of delayed gratification and hard work... to be doctors.

I do not want to prove anything. You Canadians/Germans/French/Brits that have a government run health care system you are happy with , then God bless you and your system. Now, please ask yourself why is it that so many doctors come to the USA to practice their trade? Certainally not for the food!

Hello 450:

I know you're not asking me, but I got time on my hands today...

I don't disagree with you, that when people have been used to making a lot of money, and that's taken away from them, they'll go to where they CAN make the money again...

But, not ALL of 'em will. Surely you believe our friends from the North. There ARE still enough doctors there.

If you're pointing out dangers of socialized medicine, tell me how you would protect the 47 million or so un-insured people here in THIS country?? If your solution is to do NOTHING, then that's no solution at all. EVEN McCain was going to cover them.

Of course, those 47 million people DO get medical care - at the emergency room - at about 10 times what it would cost if we insured them...

excon

Through Bush's HSA's they can set aside pretax money for healthcare. With McCain's proposal to have tax credits to offset the purchase of health insurance on an individual basis, and to have ins. Co compete nationally not just regionally.

Some individuals [ mainly the young ] choose to go without health insurance. Some individuals don't have employer based health insurance.

And who pays for unisured medical costs?

First the hospitals, doctors, nurses and staff who provide the service and don't get paid, second its passed on to those who have insurance in the form of higher costs / premiums.

Any comments on the VA or the Canadian supreme court decision? - facts unfortunantly - not just opinions.

If and that is a big IF there are actually 47 million people without health care do you realize how much it would cost us ( the average working person) and as a nation to cover these so called uninsured? How many of them are illegal's? How many of them choose not to take the coverage offered by their employers? And finally how many of this 47 million simply refuse to work? See, I look at if more from a biblical prospective. Families should take care of their parents instead of shoveling them off to some government paid for nursing home. See, my daughter has one child with major medical problems, both physical and mental. Instead of going to the government to take the burden of this child, they went out and purchased health insurance for her. This in a single income household. Son in law worked hard and got a better job with fantastic health coverage so they are now taken care of. It can be done in a free society. If Government were to take over the health care system, she could have possibly been covered, but what incentive would there be to take care of this child in the parents minds? And what level of care could she have received for the rest of her life? Any health care system whether private or public will have limits on the amount of care you can receive. It is just that a public system might have lower limits and that would means that certain people with major health issues might still be shut out.
Another good example, my wife just went back to work after over 4 months off for a major illness. Two trips to the hospital totaling 19 days, 5 of those in intensive care unit. Two surgeries and possible another one in the near future. How would she have been treated under a public system? I don't know, and I certainally don't want to find out. I nearly lost her once. My fear is that under a public system she would have died.

Times acquires tape excerpts showing King-Harbor staff ignoring dying patient - Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/02/local/me-king2)

Public funded county hospital

Hello aqain, 450:

So, if the 47 million people don't meet YOUR requirements, they should just go without. That's kind of what I thought you'd say.

excon

Hello aqain, 450:

So, if the 47 million people don't meet YOUR requirements, they should just go without. That's kinda what I thought you'd say.

excon

Didn't say that. Didn't imply that. Guess you deserve a reddie for that factual error!

I guess bottom line is that we have a fundemental difference in the way we look at things. I take full responsibility for my actions and deeds. While many in this country feel it is the governments responsibility to take care of them.

While I see the benefits of socialized health care for those who can't afford it, those with jobs and who have health through their employer really don't have much to worry about.

I took care of my mom for l0 years, the last year was th longest. We suffered financially, almost went broke. The terminology is the 'sandwich generation' meaning a family caring for an elderly parent who are sandwiched between their children and the elderly parent. That is really hard to do.

Families with enough money can find adequate care in long term care facilities, (this is not a nursing home), but expensive, $2500 $3000 per month. And, the healthcare is adequate for them. The doctors come into the LTC facility.

I have never lost a client to the healthcare system. I find that the care in the hospital is top rate and when they come out, OHIP kicks in with home care through Cdn. Red Cross Personal Support Workers (similar to nurses aides) until they can be on their own again, or if not on their again, then they have us as long as they need us. This system takes the pressure off the hospitals.

On second thought, donn, you may want to take a shot at Cdn. Red Cross furnishing Personal Support Workers under OHIP providing homecare and personal care services for the elderly to stay in their homes.

On second thought, donn, you may want to take a shot at Cdn. Red Cross furnishing Personal Support Workers under OHIP providing homecare and personal care services for the elderly to stay in their homes.
Why would I want to take on the responsibility again? My mom in law has been in my house for over 30 years. We decided to take the position of primary care givers for her at that time and have not regretted it. Is it tough? You be it is. Especially in this economy. I would dearly love to retire and move someplace nice and peaceful where we could live out or lives in relative safety and comfort. It will happen some day because she is now 91 years old. I will not place her in a home(warehouse) for others to take care of like so many in our societies today seem to want to do just to satisfy my desires though. Like I said before, if you are happy with the level of health care at the cost you are paying for it then I am glad for you. However I personally feel that the free market is a better system. Experience has taught me that anything that the Government gets it's fingers into will generally end up so screwed up that it will never be fixed. And it will generally cost me (the taxpayer) 25% more than private sector could have done the job.
JMHO!

Let me also point out Tickle that here in the US we have a TERRIBLE shortage of medical staff, including adequate nurses and CNAs as well as doctors. This is one reason for the inadequate care in hospitals, nursing homes and LTCs.

Let me also point out Tickle that here in the US we have a TERRIBLE shortage of medical staff, including adequate nurses and CNAs as well as doctors. This is one reason for the inadequate care in hospitals, nursing homes and LTCs.Weird, hearing 450donn's side you'd think you were overun with Canadian doctors wanting to work there.

Experience has taught me that anything that the Government gets it's fingers into will generally end up so screwed up that it will never be fixed. And it will generally cost me (the taxpayer) 25% more than private sector could have done the job.
I guess that's where our culture and experience differs.

I wish we were, but we aren't. We recently had to deport a fabulous ER doctor back to Dubai.

Well, I many lose my job... hey but at least I might get a wellfare check.

For the sake of America: I hope Obama succeeds too

For the sake of America: I hope Obama suceeds too

Wouldn't that depend on what his goals really are? His cohorts, at least, want to silence talk radio. Apparently, they don't believe in free speech for their opposition. That has always been the tactic of dictators. Definitely not American tradition.

Republican radio is bought and paid for. You either listen to it or turn the knob to music. The Rush Limbaugh mouths are like TV evangelists and wild horses couldn't separate him from the microphone. It might evolve into a different Republican approach due to their own mistakes, but that's own them for getting away from the party of Ronald Reagan, not Barack Obama or the Democrats. I hope America succeeds and after Dubya's failures, and I'm more than willing to give Barack Obama my blessing and the opportunity.

The current elected government will force our gun store out of business with their stringent laws and attempts at revoking and/or eliminating the second amendment as well as stricter gun laws for those of us responsible gun owners. Those laws will only harm us but help the thugs on the streets. Those thugs don't go through proper channels as do the responsible people, so we shouldn't be tightened up on.

I'm from the deep south, we call everyone by their middle names. LMAO.

I feel that anyone who has a problem with strict gun laws probably should not be able to get a gun. How can precautions when it comes to something as deadly as guns be a bad thing?

I'm from the deep south too and we do not call people by their middle names. Obama's middle name is used to imply evil by zealous gun toting, bible thumping, 2nd amendment loving conservatives. At least be honest why you used it.

Are you guys expecting a civil war????

Lol that is SO funny. You would think that wouldn't you? Stock piling guns... scares the ba-jee-bies out of me. Gun lovers make me nervous.:eek:

Yes. I prefer New England. I don't prefer living in the South.
I would only go to live the U.S if I had a good job with good benefits. Now where did I compare the south with the poor?

NK, I just want you to know that not all of us in the south are like J 9. I've lived in NC, SC, and am currently living in Atlanta. I never encountered anything like the KKK. We do have our share of racist, ignorant rednecks but fortunately there are pockets of more enlightened intelligent people too.

Imagine if Sarah Palin had made a SNAFU insult like Obama did with his Nancy Reagan off the cuff comment. She would be pilloried ..

Quick ....off the cuff without looking on the net ........name all 23 nations in North America (no there aren't only 3)

What did Obama say about Nancy Reagan?

The election is over and the decision has been made. Obama's success now represents America's success. If Obama fails then that is the same as if America fails.

What did Obama say about Nancy Reagan?

See what I mean ? You did not even hear about it.

AFP: Obama apologizes to Nancy Reagan for 'seance' crack (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iTy-qrEZ3-YIhjMgivRhZ4Px-36Q)

lol that is SO funny. You would think that wouldn't you? Stock piling guns...scares the ba-jee-bies out of me. Gun lovers make me nervous.:eek:

So you are scared of our military, our National Guard, our police forces throughout the country? People have and enjoy guns for a variety of reasons. Personal defense is only one of them. And remember what has happened in England. They banned guns and now only the criminals have guns and violent crime is rampant. It is a proven fact that in places where guns are banned the crime rate is higher than in places where concealed carry is allowed. How many times have you heard of a person with a legal concealed carry permit robbing a store at gun point? How many times have you heard of a police officer shot by a person with a legal concealed carry permit? Never! No matter how many laws you want to enact to ban guns, the criminals will still have guns. But they will then be the only ones with guns and us, the general law abiding public will be defenseless against them. Who are you going to run to then for protection?

Personally, I am just sitting back and waiting. I think the world needs to wake up, wake up to everything going on around them! America is like a spoil little kid, it gets everything it wants, and when things don't go our way we blame others for our faults. I feel very bad for Bush, yes, he may not have been the best, but shouldn't we stand by our president, whether he be Republican or Democrat? Believe me I am having a hard time keeping my mouth shut about Obama because I am a hard core Republican. So much so, that my mother was invited to President Bush' inoguration ball when he was first elected. What scares me is the fact that we have all become so lost that we need to cling to another being to tell us its OK. I don't understand how anyone could be so lost that they would follow Obama like a cult! Believe me you, I am NOT a religious person by ANY means. I hate religion with a passion! Not to say I don't believe in God, I just don't believe in the church. By this I mean that I don't need a church establishment to tell me what I believe, I can pray on my own time and get to heaven just the same. But when people start to loose faith in themselves then that is when terrible things happen. Praying to Obama, and worshiping him, will only give him power that we do not want him, or anyone to have over us. Too much power in anyone's hands is a bad thing. I just hope that after all of this people will finally wake up and realize what kind of sick place we live in today. Pornography, child mullustation, murders, but most of all how over sexed everything is! Tell me why at 15years old did I have to answer my younger sister, then 8, when she asked me what sex was? Even then she knew what basically happened. I was horrified. I am now 20 and am still horrified when I think that kids my sisters age now, 13, are getting pregnant and having sex! How the hell does that happen! They know more than I do sometimes! They know what a hand job, and a blow job are. In the 8th grade all I knew was that I needed to get my school work done or I would be in big trouble with mom and dad. What have we come to? I think we all need to spend a lot less time worrying about things we can't change, like our current president, and start putting energy into becoming a better society! I don't want kids, for fear of what they might have to grow up in! It's hard for parents now a days to raise their children in a healthy atmosphere. They have to worry about the strain of society against them. You either end up with children who are disrespectful and spoiled or ones who are so spoiled they can't even wipe their own butt at 18! True story, I was at a Christian school for half of a semester, I couldn't make it longer, surprise, surprise, where I met this guy who was 18 getting ready to graduate, had lived at home and been home school his whole life, who would cry from being homesick! I was 16 and could care less! How does that happen? Really, homesick and crying! I couldn't believe it! There has to be a healthy balance. All in all, I want to leave you with this, be nice to our president. I don't care if you agree with him or not. But think about this, this is the guy that is going to lead us for the next 4 years, will it reflect good upon our country if there is an uproar against our president? I don't think so. We all make mistakes, and we are all human, it's damn hard to be a manager, but think about running a country! That would be really hard! Let things run there natural course, in the end, we will all learn from this. Don't complain and worry about things you can not change, it makes you irritable and stressed, and who wants to live every day like that? My favorite quote: " When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained." Mark Twain

Personally, I am just sitting back and waiting.Hello Me:

If things are sooo bad, why are you just sitting back?? Waiting for the government to do something?? Hmpf. Don't sound too Republican to me.

excon

I don't understand how anyone could be so lost that they would follow Obama like a cult!

Meloo Have you actual met someone who prays to and Worships Obama, Seriously? I haven't met anyone that worships him or prays to him. I knocked on Doors For him, I made phone calls for him, I donated money to him, and of course I voted for him. Those are normal things a volunteer to a politcal campaign does.

Meloo Have you actual met someone who prays to and Worships Obama, Seriously? I haven't met anyone that worships him or prays to him. I knocked on Doors For him, I made phone calls for him, I donated money to him, and of course I voted for him. Those are normal things a volunteer to a politcal campaign does.

And so did the followers of David Koresh, Jim Jones, Rev Moon, Bagwan Reshniesh, Charles Manson to name but a few that have popped up in the last 50 years or so. So what is your point? People are blindly looking for someone to save them from this world and all the problems our government has caused simply because they have ignored the constitution, and the bill of rights. If our elected leaders would return to what our founding fathers intended for this country instead of their own ajenda's we and the rest of the world would face far fewer problems than we do today. I am not blaming one party, sorry BOTH parties are to blame for the mess we have today.

450donn,
We could extent your message to say that if people stop using religion in general to blindly look for someone to save them from this world then the world would indeed be a better place.

I agree Donn we should go back to what our founders wanted. To me that says Freedom freedom for a man to marry a man and I women to choose what happens to her body. Glad to see you finally got on board.

Edit People are not following blindly. Hell I was a Ron Paul Supporter but when that didn't work out I went to the next best choice.

I agree Donn we should go back to what our founders wanted. To me that says Freedom freedom for a man to marry a man and I women to choose what happens to her body. Glad to see you finally got on board.


Sadly you have all forgotten that our founding fathers were all deeply religious men and as such the word of God is instilled into their writings. So if you believe that then, it is not possible for what you are saying to be right. While I believe it is morally wrong for men to have sex with men or women with women it is their constitutional and right to make choices. God allows us to make choices because he made us with a free will. If you would look at history and see what caused all great civilizations to eventually fall. It was not war or famine, It was moral corruption. The choices are yours to make. Just please don't push your choices on me or my family.

And so did the followers of David Koresh, Jim Jones, Rev Moon, Bagwan Reshniesh, Charles Manson to name but a fewHello 450:

Well, I guess SOME of those guys don't know who to pay off...

But, one 'em does... Oh, it's certainly a cult, I agree. Oh, it's certainly full of people blindly looking for someone to save them... I agree, that it's a very dangerous group...

But, the Reverand Syung Yung Moon, is NOW a very respected right wing contributor to the Republican party. He bought himself respectability with 30 pieces or so, of silver...

excon

Just please don't push your choices on me or my family.
That just drips with irony. :rolleyes:

People are blindly looking for someone to save them from this world and all the problems our government has caused
You are so very wrong! I work in a public library and communicate with people of many cultures and various races locally and even all over the U.S. The excitement about Obama's election is huge. The only thing I am hearing is "What can we do TOGETHER to help get this country back on track?" That's what Obama's election is doing--inspiring everyone to pitch in. For instance, lately I have seen people using wastecans and even picking up papers off the library parking lot, whereas in the past people walked over the scattered trash. People are smiling more and have brighter eyes as they talk about the future of this country. People are talking more with each other, pumping each other up. Radio and TV talk shows ask listeners for ideas on how everyone can pull together to get things done and improve life for everyone. There's an excitement in the air that wasn't there two weeks ago.

It's not Obama who is going to change and improve the world. It's ALL OF US (even you, 450), each in our own way. Obama has begun to inspire us to use our brains and our unique abilities to make life better.

So you are scared of our military, our National Guard, our police forces throughout the country? People have and enjoy guns for a variety of reasons. Personal defense is only one of them. And remember what has happened in England. They banned guns and now only the criminals have guns and violent crime is rampant. It is a proven fact that in places where guns are banned the crime rate is higher than in places where concealed carry is allowed. How many times have you heard of a person with a legal concealed carry permit robbing a store at gun point? How many times have you heard of a police officer shot by a person with a legal concealed carry permit? Never! No matter how many laws you want to enact to ban guns, the criminals will still have guns. But they will then be the only ones with guns and us, the general law abiding public will be defenseless against them. Who are you going to run to then for protection?

No, the Military, Natl.Guard, and Police forces are supposed to have guns. You lose all crediability when you ask dumb questions like that. Personal defense is not a bad reason to have guns. I never said ban then altogether. I do believe there should be VERY strict conditions on who can purchase them. No criminal past, no domestic violence, no anger mgmt. problems, waiting period. Why would this be a problem for any law abiding, reasonable person is a mystery to me. I don't worry about a person carrying a concealed weapon holding up a store. What I DO worry about is a person carrying a concealed weapon in the airport and getting ticked off with the lines or airline employees, or his/her significant other. Or the short fused idiot that gets into a fight in a bar, or has road rage. It could be the wild west all over again. Bullets flying and innocent people being killed.

Where I live, a gun store was recently robbed. Many high powered and continueous shooting guns (I don't even know what you call them, but machine guns basically)were taken. The police say these guns will probably be sold to gangs, etc. Now WHY on earth would a shop even carry these guns? Guns that can plow down countless people in a matter of seconds. Who needs that? Please answer this question.

My dad is a gun collector, hunter, lover. Has been for the last 68 years since he got his first gun. At Christmas one year he had to take out one of his new guns to show everyone. No one cares except my neices new husband that is a deputy sheriff and is just itching to shoot somebody. Anyhoo, Dad knows all about gun safety. Well, we find out after he has passed it around for everyone to look at that it had a bullet in the chamber that he thought was empty. This could have been a deadly disaster. That is the thing with guns. Mistakes are life and death.

I just heard a story on the news. A man waiting in line at a car wash was just shot and killed. He could have had a concealed weapon but it wouldn't have done him any good.
He would have to be carrying it around in plain sight and drawn for that to have helped him.

What I don't understand about personal protection is this. Instead of a gun that can kill first and NOT ask questions later, why can't citizens just have stun guns, or tazzers, or
Anything like that, that would stop people enough for you to get away. Because once that bullet has killed, you sure can't un-ring that bell.

Then there are the idiots that leave their guns around for children to find. I had a client whose husband was a deer hunter. They had a gun cabinet in the basement with all his guns under lock and key... or so they thought. Their six year old daughter was holding one when I went downstairs for something. But we THOUGHT it was locked. The stakes are too high.

Another question, if you have guns and you are afraid that you will have a hard time getting more after Obama is sworn in, why do you need more. How many does it take to kill someone? You want one in each holster??

We had a wonderfully nice sweet grandparent type couple that lived behind us. They took our children many times and gave them ice cream, etc. One day I heard him make the statement... I have a gun somewhere in the house, don't know where it is right now. WHAT?? You don't know where your gun is?? Needless to say, they did not go over there anymore.

Sorry this is so long but there are too many well meaning yet still irresponsible people getting guns.

see what I mean ? you did not even hear about it.

AFP: Obama apologizes to Nancy Reagan for 'seance' crack (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iTy-qrEZ3-YIhjMgivRhZ4Px-36Q)

I don't know anything about séances but she did consult with psychics. She wore the pants in that family and she called the shots.

cozyk,
While I do not disagree with your comments totally, there is no need for more gun legislation. Guns as a whole are one of the most heavily regulated industries in this country. If there were common sense gun laws that would be fine with me. What I object to is more laws that no one can or does enforce. Don't know what state you live in, but here there is a criminal background check before purchase. That includes any signs of mental instability. Thieves do not go to gun shows or gun stores to buy their gins. They either steal them or buy stolen guns on the street for pennies on the dollar. The whole problem In my opinion can be boiled down to the moral decay of this country. If people took responsibility for their actions you would not have the problems that face us today.
We are simply following the pattern set down by other great nations in history. England being the last example. Less than a hundred years ago it was said that the sun never sets on the British Empire. Today they are a mere shell of their former glory. Why?
The United States is screaming to that same end. After WWII we were considered the most powerful nation on the face of the earth. Today we are despised and spit on around the world. Again why? The Islamic extremeists have it partially right. They want to destroy us because of our moral decay. What they have wrong is that instead of fighting us, all they need to do is sit back and wait another ten or twenty years. It will happen.

Less than a hundred years ago it was said that the sun never sets on the British Empire. Today they are a mere shell of their former glory. Why?Because it's a good thing to let countries rule themselves maybe?? Not because of gun laws. LOL!

I don't know anything about séances but she did consult with psychics. She wore the pants in that family and she called the shots
Typical uninformed blather . Read his thoughts in his own words to find out how deeply he understood the issues of the day and the philosophy of the movement he led.
Amazon.com: Reagan, In His Own Hand: The Writings of Ronald Reagan that Reveal His Revolutionary Vision for America: George P. Shultz, Kiron K. Skinner, Annelise Anderson, Martin Anderson: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Reagan-His-Own-Hand-Revolutionary/dp/B000H2MA86/ref=pd_sim_b_njs_2)

typical uninformed blather . "I figured given enough time the conversation would degenerate. " - your words.

Because it's a good thing to let countries rule themselves maybe???? Not because of gun laws. LOL!

Maybe you need to go back and read up on the history of Britain. Moral decay, total disregard for the Jewish people, Gods chosen people, stricter laws banning all guns. Check out the latest statistics on violent crime in the UK and compare it to the USA. Remember, even the police in the UK are banned from carrying guns.

Maybe you need to go back and read up on the history of Britain. Moral decay, total disregard for the Jewish people, Gods chosen people, stricter laws banning all guns. Check out the latest statistics on violent crime in the UK and compare it to the USA. Remember, even the police in the UK are banned from carrying guns.
None of that has anything to do with the decline of the empire.
British Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_empire#Decolonisation_and_decline_.281945. E2.80.931997.29)

Hello again, 450:

I think you're right. The Second Amendment IS part of the Constitution... I support it as loudly as I do ALL the others.

So, how come you support the dufus in chief when he obliterated the Fourth Amendment when he decided to spy on Americans without a warrant, or the Fifth when he took away our habeas corpus rights?? Or maybe the Sixth Amendment when he made torture OK??

I just want to know if you support ALL the Amendments, or do you pick?

excon

COzyk:

Gun politics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control)

Maybe you should do some basic research on the topic, before relying on anectodal experience.

First Reports Evaluating the Effectiveness of Strategies for Preventing Violence: Firearms Laws (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm)

- insufficient data to determine with certainty whether strict control laws have any effect on violent crime -


In either case, gun control does not make up for other factors contributing to violence such as family breakdown, violence in media, drug abuse etc...

What’s Riskier: A gun or a swimming pool? | SmartParentsBlog.com (http://www.smartparentshealthykids.com/blog/?p=11)


Statistically speaking accidental drownings cause more death in children than accidental shooting.

I never said that I agreed with all of the decisions PRESIDENT Bush made. He made a lot of mistakes in his eight years. He also did a lot of things right. When was the last attack on US soil against innocent civilians? That's right September 11,2001!
Oh and it is really disrespectful of y'all not calling him by his proper title. PRESIDENT. You do not have to like his politics, but you sure should respect the office that he was elected to.

[QUOTE=inthebox;1374486]COzyk:

Gun politics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control)


In either case, gun control does not make up for other factors contributing to violence such as family breakdown, violence in media, drug abuse etc...

Thank you for making my point!
The breakdown of the family, moral decay of this country, call it what you will, is the complete and total reason we as a country are where we are today!

typical uninformed blather . read his thoughts in his own words to find out how deeply he understood the issues of the day and the philosophy of the movement he led.
Amazon.com: Reagan, In His Own Hand: The Writings of Ronald Reagan that Reveal His Revolutionary Vision for America: George P. Shultz, Kiron K. Skinner, Annelise Anderson, Martin Anderson: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Reagan-His-Own-Hand-Revolutionary/dp/B000H2MA86/ref=pd_sim_b_njs_2)

Guess it depends on which book you read.

Oh and it is really disrespectful of y'all not calling him by his proper title. PRESIDENT. You do not have to like his politics, but you sure should respect the office that he was elected to.Respect is earned person by person, not by belonging to a group.

Maybe you need to go back and read up on the history of Britain. Moral decay, total disregard for the Jewish people, Gods chosen people, stricter laws banning all guns. Check out the latest statistics on violent crime in the UK and compare it to the USA. Remember, even the police in the UK are banned from carrying guns.


Well, that's just stupid:rolleyes:

inthebox agrees: So, before Obama no one was inspired to use their brain and their abilities to make life better?
The CEO/director/person in charge sets the tone for the organization--whether it be a company, public library, charity, church group, daycare facility, family. This is known by Organizational Behavior, Sociology, and Psychology students everywhere. The person who has been in charge of the U.S. started nicely enough, but his poor decision-making lost him U.S. and even world respect.

So, to respond to your comment to me, none of us U.S. citizens has been inspired by our leader to improve things during the past (at least) seven years. The reemergence of kindness is small but steady. Now, even Chicago area drivers seem less inclined to indulge in road rage and finger gestulating, and are much more agreeable when someone wants to merge or even cut in. I see more doors being held open for others, I hear more enthusiastic "May I help you?"s, I feel reached out to by people who previously would never have given me the time of day.

We will recover our kinder and smarter selves as Obama takes the helm.

COzyk:
Statistically speaking accidental drownings cause more death in children than accidental shooting.

So what about deaths that are not in children AND not accidents? You are citing a pretty narrow range of mortality statistics...

I'm guessing guns win against swimming pools in adult homicides...

Anyway, you can always find something more dangerous than something else. Cigarettes are way more dangerous than guns if you just go by number of deaths caused per year.

Dogs are more dangerous than black widow spiders. What's the point of such an argument? That we should never try to reduce any risk?

I'm a believer in Wikipedia, but as a "source" the jury is still out. The only real requirement for getting listed in Wiki is your information has to have been printed somewhere at least once. It doesn't matter if it was printed in a place that also didn't cite normal "sources verified" procedures... it just had to get printed. Then Wiki accepts it as a valid source.

That's convenient, but it's troublesome to me. I know the internet is changing and I suppose we have to change with it, in some ways. But I'm not sure I'm ready to accept as a valid source something ANYONE has ever said in writing when prior to this, only verified researched and supported citations were accepted as "proof of point". Wiki doesn't require that level of accountability, so I'm on the fence about Wiki citations in a debate.

450donn disagrees: Not sure how to react to that? But I did not drink the koolaid so I guess I have to say factually wrong.
Obama inspires me to be nice to you too. And factually wrong? You're calling me a liar? You need a sip of that stuff too, maybe the cheery ooops cherry flavor?

We will wait until about June1 2009 to see how enthralled you still are with him after he back peddles on all his promises that he has made to every special interest group in the country to guarantee his election. Heck I have already seen some of his staunches supporters in the media starting to bash him over some of his back peddling.

We will wait until about June1 2009 to see how enthralled you still are with him after he back peddles on all his promises that he has made to every special interest group in the country to guarantee his election. Heck I have already seen some of his staunches supporters in the media starting to bash him over some of his back peddling.
Please cite your sources of formerly Obama-friendly media bashing him. Even Rush and Sean Hannity are off his case and are trying to rebuild the Republican Party for 2012.

COzyk:

Gun politics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control)

Maybe you should do some basic research on the topic, before relying on anectodal experience.

First Reports Evaluating the Effectiveness of Strategies for Preventing Violence: Firearms Laws (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm)

- insufficient data to determine with certainty whether strict control laws have any effect on violent crime -


In either case, gun control does not make up for other factors contributing to violence such as family breakdown, violence in media, drug abuse etc....

What’s Riskier: A gun or a swimming pool? | SmartParentsBlog.com (http://www.smartparentshealthykids.com/blog/?p=11)


Statistically speaking accidental drownings cause more death in children than accidental shooting.

Thanks for the links. I read most and they are very interesting. I've based my opinions on personal experience and the scale had tilted way down on the side of gun control.

Gun control has not required anything unreasonable so I don't understand what the big woop is. There were a couple of things I ask in an earlier post that was never answered. I'd appreciate feed back on these.

1. Why would a gun shop carry automatic weapons? Who buys these and for what reason?

2. People are stock piling guns just in case there is a ban. If you already have a gun or guns, what is the need to stock pile more? You already have yourself protection weapon.
Are people preparing for a militant action against their gov? Or are people just collecting guns like other people collect matchbooks?

3.
What about alternative ways to self protect. Like the stun gun and the tazzer. I'm sure I am spelling that incorrectly but you know what I mean. I would come much closer to using one of those than using a gun. I am not proposing a gun ban, I just don't fall for the self protection argument hook, line, and sinker. I think there are people like my neices husband that love to feel more powerful over others.

4. The argument of "the founding fathers said that we have the right to bear arms" is not much of an argument. If you hold all amendments to the original writing, women would not be voting, blacks would not be voting, much less become President, prohibition in, then out... The constitution changes as time advances. Again, not saying guns should be banned, just saying the constitution is not the best argument.

Is that guy George gone yet! Ain't commin' out till he leaves!!

We will wait until about June1 2009 to see how enthralled you still are with him after he back peddles on all his promises that he has made to every special interest group in the country to guarantee his election. Heck I have already seen some of his staunches supporters in the media starting to bash him over some of his back peddling.

Do you have a crystal ball? You say "when he back peddles on all his promises" like that is a fact. Why do you expect the worst? Also , please list a few of his promises and the particular special interest group these promises were made to.

Do you have a crystal ball? You say "when he back peddles on all his promises" like that is a fact. Why do you expect the worst? Also , please list a few of his promises and the particular special interest group these promises were made to.
Auto workers union
Teachers union
Congressional black caucus
All welfare recipients
Illegals
All low income
Bill aires
Jesse jackson
Al sharpton
Anybody that thinks "spread the wealth" is not a socialist idea
Public employee unions
Need a few more?

Auto workers union
Teachers union
Congressional black caucus
All welfare recepients
illegals
all low income
bill aires
jesse jackson
al sharpton
anybody that thinks "spread the wealth" is not a socialist idea
public employee unions
Need a few more?

You did not say what was promised to them. Be specific please. What did he promise to Bill Aires and Jessie Jackson? And Al Sharpton?

Auto workers union
Teachers union
Congressional black caucus
All welfare recepients
illegals
all low income
bill aires
jesse jackson
al sharpton
anybody that thinks "spread the wealth" is not a socialist idea
public employee unions
Need a few more?Hello again, 450:

You know I LOVE to argue with you. But, I can't take you serious. You're a poster boy for Rush Limprod and Hannity. You have no facts. You have rumors, and right wing innuendo. You're silly.

Oh yeah, you forgot one group - the TERRORISTS.

Bwa, ha ha ha ha .

excon

Hello Me:

If things are sooo bad, why are you just sitting back??? Waiting for the government to do something??? Hmpf. Don't sound too Republican to me.

excon

I am a hard core Republican, but what else should I do? Storm the gates of Washington and demand that Obama be removed from office? Sorry, not possible. I didn't vote him in, others did. One person can not make a difference no matter what your parents told you as a kid, it takes more like me to make a difference. I do my part little by little, but others need to chip in as well. Don't judge people before you know them. It's rood and classless.

Meloo Have you actual met someone who prays to and Worships Obama, Seriously? I haven't met anyone that worships him or prays to him. I knocked on Doors For him, I made phone calls for him, I donated money to him, and of course I voted for him. Those are normal things a volunteer to a politcal campaign does.

There are people who do that, its odd. Look on YouTube you will find creepy videos. I never said that EVERY one does that, nore did I EVER say that YOU do that. Try not to take things to heart and be sure you understand what you are reading, it was no personal hit upon you or any Democrats, my boyfriend is a Democrat and I don't talk to him like that at all. He has his opinions as do I.

it takes more like me to make a difference. I do my part little by little, but others need to chip in as well.
That's going to happen. You are going to be asked -- in fact, Obama has already asked each one of us -- to help make a difference. He's even going to include esteemed Republicans in his cabinet and as advisors.

That's going to happen. You are going to be asked -- in fact, Obama has already asked each one of us -- to help make a difference. He's even going to include esteemed Republicans in his cabinet and as advisors.

I'll believe it when I see it. I don't trust ANYone in the political office anymore than I can throw 'um. He has to prove himself worthy and then MAYBE I'll believe him

I'll believe it when I see it. I don't trust ANYone in the political office anymore than I can throw 'um. He has to prove himself worthy and then MAYBE I'll believe him
It's already happening. Join the fun!

That's going to happen. You are going to be asked -- in fact, Obama has already asked each one of us -- to help make a difference. He's even going to include esteemed Republicans in his cabinet and as advisors.


By "spreading the wealth" and getting taxed more :(:rolleyes:;)

By "spreading the wealth" and getting taxed more
Obama isn't doing that. Nor will he. You are going to be soooooooooooo surprised.

http://www.atr.org/content/pdf/2008/August/082508pr-ObamaMcCain%20Matrix.pdf

Top personal rate INCREASE by 4.6%

Capital gains INCREASE by 5%

Small business employer rate INCREASE by up to 16.9%

NO repeal of the AMT.

Now, post stats that aren't biased.

I will be impressed by Obama when I see how he reacts to Canadian issues and recognizes the free trade agreement. and the softwood lumber issue and oh, yes, how he reacts to the Quebec separation issue. That will be interesting. Otherwise, I rather like him.

lol that is SO funny. You would think that wouldn't you? Stock piling guns...scares the ba-jee-bies out of me. Gun lovers make me nervous.:eek:

No.

Not a civil war, a second American Revolution, is the most likely to occur if this President is able to do just half of what he said he would.

If we, the law abiding patriots of America scare you, how do you feel about all the criminals that have more guns than we do?

We pass our background checks, wait out our waiting period, and get our guns.

The government knows who we all are, where we all live, and exactly how many guns we have.

If and when the government "tries" to confiscate them, they know exactly where to look.

Then, only the criminals will be armed.

That, along with folks like you, scare the hell out of me!!

if this President is able to do just half of what he said he would.

And do you really know what he has said so far?

Now, post stats that aren't biased.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf

Under estate tax and capital gains taxes - exactly the same as

http://www.atr.org/content/pdf/2008/August/082508pr-ObamaMcCain%20Matrix.pdf


How is that "biased?"

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf

under estate tax and capital gains taxes - exactly the same as

http://www.atr.org/content/pdf/2008/August/082508pr-ObamaMcCain%20Matrix.pdf


How is that "biased?"
Do me a hugh favor and clean your glasses, then compare the two again.

By "spreading the wealth" and getting taxed more :(:rolleyes:;)

Are you saying you make 250 thousand or more a year. If you don't , you will not be taxed more. If you do, then anything over 250/yr will be taxed an additional 3%.

Are you saying you make 250 thousand or more a year. If you don't , you will not be taxed more. If you do, then anything over 250/yr will be taxed an additional 3%.

Excuse me, but have your forgotten or just ignored the fact that when Obama lets the Bush tax cuts expire, it will be the largest tax increase in the history of this Nation?

Oh yeah, he said he wouldn't "raise" taxes, he just forgot to mention this small, insignificant fact, didn't he?

Excuse me, but have your forgotten or just ignored the fact that when Obama lets the Bush tax cuts expire, it will be the largest tax increase in the history of this Nation?
Do you really think he is that stupid, that he missed noting that bump that would occur?

Do you really think he is that stupid, that he missed noting that bump that would occur?
Of course he's not stupid, he fooled over half of the American population.

"bump"?

How cute, nice how you try to minimize the effect this increase will have on EVERY American, that pays income tax that is.

Of course he's not stupid, he fooled over half of the American population.

"bump"?

How cute, nice how you try to minimize the effect this increase will have on EVERY American, that pays income tax that is.
I see you don't understand verb forms. I said "would," not "will." There will be no bump under Obama.

No.

Not a civil war, a second American Revolution, is the most likely to occur if this President is able to do just half of what he said he would.

If we, the law abiding patriots of America scare you, how do you feel about all the criminals that have more guns than we do?

We pass our background checks, wait out our waiting period, and get our guns.

The government knows who we all are, where we all live, and exactly how many guns we have.

If and when the government "tries" to confiscate them, they know exactly where to look.

Then, only the criminals will be armed.

That, along with folks like you, scare the hell out of me!!!


You can buy guns till the cows come home if that is what makes you happy. All you got to do is adhere to a few REASONABLE requirements put into place for the safety of all of us. How does that hurt you? Tell me who said they were going to confiscate your guns. What makes you think that?
Did I miss something? Names please.

ME, and folks like me should be the LAST people you should be afraid of. Non violent, easy going, fair minded, peace loving, what's to fear?

You can buy guns till the cows come home if that is what makes you happy. All you gotta do is adhere to a few REASONABLE requirements put into place for the safety of all of us. How does that hurt you? Tell me who said they were going to confiscate your guns. What makes you think that?
Did I miss something? Names please.

ME, and folks like me should be the LAST people you should be afraid of. Non violent, easy going, fair minded, peace loving, what's to fear?

Many good men, and women, have died, fighting to their last breath, so that you can enjoy your "easy going, fair minded, peace loving" life.

If enough Americans adopt your attitude, there won't be enough to keep fighting for the freedom and peace you now enjoy.

That, is what scares me about folks like you.

As for names, Charles Schumer and James Bradley come to mind without much thought.

You probably didn't know that several liberal politicians have tried to enact legislation to abolish the second amendment, did you?

Many good men, and women, have died, fighting to their last breath, so that you can enjoy your "easy going, fair minded, peace loving" life.

If enough Americans adopt your attitude, there won't be enough to keep fighting for the freedom and peace you now enjoy.

That, is what scares me about folks like you.

As for names, Charles Schumer and James Bradley come to mind without much thought.

You probably didn't know that several liberal politicians have tried to enact legislation to abolish the second amendment, did you?
So if you lose your guns, we lose our freedom?

Excuse me, but have your forgotten or just ignored the fact that when Obama lets the Bush tax cuts expire, it will be the largest tax increase in the history of this Nation?

Oh yeah, he said he wouldn't "raise" taxes, he just forgot to mention this small, insignificant fact, didn't he?

You mean the tax cuts (loop holes) put into place for the wealthy and corps? The ones that were supposed to trickle down? The ones that keep taxes down but national debt up? Republicans don't tax, they borrow. They have to get the money somewhere because they don't cut spending.

Bush is a republican, in name only, but he did CUT taxes.

And the new President, is going to allow those "republican" tax cuts to expire.

ANYONE who pays income tax, will be paying more, not getting any "tax cuts", period.

The real "tax cuts" from Obama will be in the form if welfare checks to people who don't pay any income taxes to begin with.

So if you lose your guns, we lose our freedom?

That my young friend is the most factual statement I've ever seen posted by you.

Good job!

That my young friend is the most factual statement I've ever seen posted by you.

Good job!
I don't believe it. Bush has already taken away several of our freedoms. Losing guns is the least of my worries. What could you possibly do WITH guns? Shoot all the feds? (Must be why my NRA husband is saving water in old pop bottles.)

Bush is a republican, in name only, but he did CUT taxes.

And the new President, is going to allow those "republican" tax cuts to expire.

ANYONE who pays income tax, will be paying more, not getting any "tax cuts", period.

The real "tax cuts" from Obama will be in the form if welfare checks to people who don't pay any income taxes to begin with.

Oh pro gun, pro gun...
You sound so bitter. I am not expecting tax CUTS, I'm also not expecting a tax increase.
When did Obama say we will all be paying more taxes so that more people can be on welfare? I think you assume a lot.

Many good men, and women, have died, fighting to their last breath, so that you can enjoy your "easy going, fair minded, peace loving" life.

If enough Americans adopt your attitude, there won't be enough to keep fighting for the freedom and peace you now enjoy.

That, is what scares me about folks like you.

As for names, Charles Schumer and James Bradley come to mind without much thought.

You probably didn't know that several liberal politicians have tried to enact legislation to abolish the second amendment, did you?

What does my temperament have to do with fighting for freedom and peace/ Who am I supposed to be gearing up to fight. My own gov? I don't see the need. Especially now with an incoming Pres. With a cool head, common sense, a brilliant mind, and a willingness to listen to repubs and demos. AKA fair minded.;)

And don't think for a minute that I don't bow down to and honor every man or woman that has fought for the freedoms we enjoy in this country. They all hold a very special place in my heart that will forever be greatfull.

You sound like I should be in fight mode at all times. Like I need to stock pile my weapons just in case I feel the need to rebel against my own country. We have a very powerful weapon already, it's called "my vote". Another weapon we have, "terms".;)

We are already in a acute depression now... what do you mean Obama will speed us in depression? If anything... he will be the change that we will all need.

As for names, Charles Schumer and James Bradley come to mind without much thought.

You probably didn't know that several liberal politicians have tried to enact legislation to abolish the second amendment, did you?
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I don't get it. I'm trying, I promise but I just don't get what you are so riled up about.
You names Charles Schumer and James Bradley.

Schumer He is big on the fight against crime. Yes, he did sponcer legislature. That increased penalties for arson in houses of worship. Why would anyone need arsons in a house of worship? I don't even know why that was an issue. What kind of houses of worship could this be. The church of the Hatfields and McCoys?

In 1994 he authored the omnibus crime bill which put 100,000 new policemen on the street.
This should help ease some of your fears concerning the "only criminals will have guns" argument. He enforced the 3 strikes, your out sentenceing. Another step in reducing those gun happy criminals.
He created an afterschool program for troubled teens. Yet another step in fighting potential gun slinging criminals.
He is a sponsor of the Brady Bill. Do you think just any old idiot should be able to walk in a gun shop and get these deadly things? Tell me the down side of the Brady Bill please.
He co-wrote the Assault Weapons Ban which outlaws the manufacturing of 19 types of semi-automatic weapons. Tell me why anyone would need an Uzi or an AK-47. I would be willing to believe that if a person requires one of these, they are up to no good. I would love for you to answer this.
And then there is the Project Excile Program that enforces strict sentencing guidelines for illegal gun possession. Illegal gun possession falls under the title of "criminal" and wouldn't you WANT there to be strict guidelines for criminals with guns?
Not once have I seen anything about him confiscating your gun. If you would point that out, I'd appreciate it.

Now, for James Bradley. You mean the author? The guy that wrote Flags Of Our Fathers and Flyboys. I've never heard or read that he wanted to confiscate your guns. Please tell me where to find that.

Now, tell me which polititions want to abolish the 2nd amendment because I disagree with them. I am a REASONABLE person and am not trying to outlaw guns, just see that they are in qualified worthy hands and enforce keeping them out of unqualified hands. Are you a reasonable person? Also any reasonable person has no need for machine guns... or do they? You tell me:eek:.

But what if the coppers try to bust into my meth lab!!
Where would I be without my AK? ;)

But what if the coppers try to bust into my meth lab!!!
Where would I be without my AK? ;)

Well, you do have a point there:D