Here's the scenario.

Someone has accepted Jesus as their personal Friend and Saviour.

From time to time that someone (lets be honest... me) will give into temptation and commit a private sin (one that only God knows about). After which I am extremely repentant and sorrowful. IF this happens infrequently but over a long period - Will God always forgive me?

I know that I should not sin, but from time to time I will have a moment of spiritual weakness and lapse. I (we) are surrounded by sin all the time (television, magazines etc). Should I not watch television (to metaphorically pluck my eye out) or should I be more prayerful?


Proverbs 6:14-15
In whose heart is perverseness, Who deviseth evil continually, Who soweth discord. Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; On a sudden shall he be broken, and that without remedy.

JPN
First of all , are you sure that what you do is a sin?
If it is , God's mercy and grace are ALWAYS available , all you have to do is ask !
A father is ALWAYS ready to help his child stand when that child for some reason falls.
TV , magazines etc. all those things are made for us, we choose on how we use them.

JPN
First of all , are you sure that what you do is a a sin?
.

I watch (pornography, albeit soft) for a few minutes,sometimes only for a few seconds.

It is definitelya sin (perhaps even an addiction. I generally make a point of avoiding it but I have my moments of weakness.

I understand that it is not a sin to be tempted. I am tempted every day with this sin and 99% of the time I resist but I guess sometimes I am not strong enough.

J

Things are not always the way they seem !
1 Samuel 27:1 And David said in his heart, I shall now perish one day by the hand of Saul: there is nothing better for me than that I should speedily escape into the land of the Philistines; and Saul shall despair of me, to seek me any more in any coast of Israel: so shall I escape out of his hand.
2 And David arose, and he passed over with the six hundred men that were with him unto Achish, the son of Maoch, king of Gath.

3 And David dwelt with Achish at Gath, he and his men, every man with his household, even David with his two wives, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail the Carmelitess, Nabal's wife.
4 And it was told Saul that David was fled to Gath: and he sought no more again for him.

5 And David said unto Achish, If I have now found grace in thine eyes, let them give me a place in some town in the country, that I may dwell there: for why should thy servant dwell in the royal city with thee?

6 Then Achish gave him Ziklag that day: wherefore Ziklag pertaineth unto the kings of Judah unto this day.

7 And the time that David dwelt in the country of the Philistines was a full year and four months.

Read carefully and find out if you can see yourself in David's place!

Remember , at that time it was a sin to have any kind of a relationship with someone who was not an Israelite , so to the eyes of the Israelites David was committing sin by doing what he did!

Its unfortunate that so many people feel the need to live their lives obiding by rules that belong to religions that aren't even real.

its unfortunate that so many people feel the need to live their lives obiding by rules that belong to religions that arent even real.

FORCE_electric
The unfortunate thing is that so many people don't know or have forgotten who their Father is !This world is full of orphans not because their Father is dead , but because they lost him.Who is going to help those people to find their Father ?Do you know who your Father is?Do you know what He has done for you and still does day by day?Do you know that He paid what you had to pay and because you are too proud to accept that,you still owe? How unfortunate is that?
God being my Father , that is my religion[/B[B]]!You call that unreal?You are to find out how wrong you are!

When temptation arises, whether it's TV, magazines, computer, keep in the forefront of your mind the things that God hates and switch the channel, turn the page, click the off switch straight away, without hesitation! If an image is still in your mind, pray for God's holy spirit to help you be strong and overcome your weakness. If you truly want to please God you need to hate what God hates (Prov 8:13) and strive hard to win the battle against any weaknesses. Trust in God that he will help you. If you don't shake off the "old personality" then really how much do you want to change? (Eph 4:23,24)
Sure God forgives us but remember his people the Israelites. How many times did he keep forgiving them for their straying from his commandments? Time and time again and yet... eventually he did reject them up as his chosen people. Something to think about...

Moparbyfar
You wrote ''Sure God forgives us but remember his people the Israelites.How many times did he keep forgiving them for their straying from his commandments? Time and time again and yet... eventually he did reject them up as his chosen people.

When Did God rejected them? Israel was and still is God's chosen people.God chose Israel , no other nation and through Israel , we the nations are blessed to Know God!Yes Israel made many mistakes but remember ''Isaiah 62:1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.

4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:

11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

:12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

This is a big issue but this is not the subjec here. If you want to you can start a thread and I will be happy to tell you more!

This is a big issue but this is not the subject here. If you want to you can start a thread and I will be happy to tell you more!
Seems to me like YOU are wishing to make this a subject, yes? My point was that God has in the past not continually forgiven and we are no exception. Why don't you start a new thread RE this topic as it looks like something you are itching to discuss?


When Did God rejected them?

In short, God rejected natural Israel for the last time when they rejected his son as their saviour. Matt 21:43 and Heb 8:9 confirms this. So God opened the way for all to benefit from Jesus death, not just Jews (Rev 5:9), beginning at Pentecost 33 CE when a new spiritual nation of Israel was born.

Here's the scenario.

Someone has accepted Jesus as their personal Friend and Saviour.

From time to time that someone (lets be honest... me) will give into temptation and commit a private sin (one that only God knows about). After which I am extremely repentant and sorrowful. IF this happens infrequently but over a long period of time - Will God always forgive me?

I know that I should not sin, but from time to time I will have a moment of spiritual weakness and lapse. I (we) are surrounded by sin all the time (television, magazines etc). Should I not watch television (to metaphorically pluck my eye out) or should I be more prayerful?


Proverbs 6:14-15
In whose heart is perverseness, Who deviseth evil continually, Who soweth discord. Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; On a sudden shall he be broken, and that without remedy.


You are not alone :


Romans 7

Psalm 51

Hosea Bible.org: Undying Love—The Story of Hosea and Gomer (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1295)

I find this passage hard to misinterpret:

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:26-31

needinfo08,

you are taking that out of context. Paul is talking to the Jewish people who went back to sacrificing after the death, burial and resurrection. Of our Lord. It isn't the same thing at all. If we don't put these verses in to context, understand what is going on, who is writing, who it is written to, then scripture would contradict itself. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE!!

JPN,

The blood of Jesus Christ HIS son, cleanes us from all sin. All means ALL!

There are some great books out there that help when you are in a sin cycle. Great men of God that have struggled with this same problem and have overcome it. There are also some churches that have integrity groups for men. If I were you, I'd research your area and find some help and support.

The balance is found in the following:

1 Cor 6:12

12 "All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything.
RSV

It is not easy to leave "enslavement" even though we know that when we do give in we are dirtying our conscience for which Jesus died to free us.

I doubt if there is "one answer that fits all". Generally speaking it all comes down to getting back to God quickly when we sin... every time! But like Adam and Eve we try to go hide so God doesn't see our nakedness.

So follow what is in your heart according to what you wrote: repent immediately... and then ask for guidance and empowerment from Him... over and over again until the victory over this sin is won. And it may take a long time to overcome an area of your life where sin is solidly entrenched. Keep at it and don't doubt that if you resist the devil long enough, he must flee from you, who are a true child of God.

Also learn to forgive yourself just like you know God has already done.

Here is a great goal by one who also had problems with the past:

Phil 3:12-14

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
NIV

needinfo08,

you are taking that out of context.

I don't think so. The key is that the person is sinning willfully. What is the only Scriptural definition of sin? Sin is transgression of the law [torah] 1John 3:4. Regardless of the context everyone is held to the same standard---do not sin.

Per the Scriptures to be a saint you must: "...they that keep the commandments of YHWH, and the faith of Yahushua." Rev 14:12

Acts 10:34 "... Of a truth I perceive that YHWH is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness [follows the commandments], is accepted with him."

Everyone will be judged by the same standards. We do not have a license to sin.

Per the Scriptures to be a saint you must: "...they that keep the commandments of YHWH, and the faith of Yahushua." Rev 14:12

Acts 10:34 "...Of a truth I perceive that YHWH is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness [follows the commandments], is accepted with him." .

I agree that we need both the faith in God's promised Messiah and the faith which produces good works by the power of the Spirit of God.

However, the righteousness we have, by which we are saved IS NOT a righteousness which we produced by keeping the Law. It is God's righteousness given as a free gift to those who trust His promises:

Rom 3:19-25

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
NIV

Rom 10:1-4
10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.NIV

We are not those "under the Law" but rather children of promise... not of our fulfilling God's promise (like being born of Hagar), but as those who come about by promise (as through Sarah even though it was impossible)... not of Sinai, but of Zion. We live in the New Covenant put in force by the blood of Christ.


You are right that there is no license to sin. Those who believe that will eventually be so enslaved by the sin from which they had been set free that they will not count themselves worthy of God's love and forgiveness but will expect only His just wrath. They will throw away all hope that they had in God.

However, the righteousness we have, by which we are saved IS NOT a righteousness which we produced by keeping the Law. It is God's righteousness given as a free gift to those who trust His promises:


Agreed. But think of it as a prisoner who receives a pardon. The murder does not have the power/authority to pardon himself; the Governor has to do it. However, after receiving the pardon, can the person commit murder again and remain free? Of course not, he is not "working righteousness", he has trangressed the law. So without obedience to the law, there is no more sacrifice/pardon. In other words, forgiveness of past sins is by grace; receiving eternal life is by striving to keep the commandments.


We are not those "under the Law" but rather children of promise... not of our fulfilling God's promise (like being born of Hagar), but as those who come about by promise (as through Sarah even though it was impossible)... not of Sinai, but of Zion. We live in the New Covenant put in force by the blood of Christ.

We are no longer "under the law of animal sacrifice". In the Wilderness, atonement was made by animal sacrifice in the Tabernacle, then later in the Temple. Now Messiah (Our Sacrificial Lamb) has come and we has forgiveness by His blood sacrifice. He replaced the need for animal sacrifice and the Temple in 30AD and then 40 years later the Temple was destroyed.

Matthew 5:17 "Think not [don't think for a minute] that I am come to destroy the law... "

revdrgade -

your comments regarding justification are right on the money but I fear that needinfo's understanding of justification is similar to that of the Pharisees, which was the only way to receive eternal life is by keeping the law. Paul taught that "in the sight of God, no flesh shall be JUSTIFIED"... that is to say, no one can be justified in of himself; only God can justify a person and render him/her worthy to receive eternal life.

Going pack to the original thread by JPN, the question was asked "...when does God say enough is enough?" I'd like to try to attempt to answer that question, if I may.

JPN, I really appreciate your tenderness of heart because it truly reveals the righteousness of your inward man. Let me explain. Throughout the New Testament, the teaching of the Apostles are all uniform in that they recognize something fundamental about being a believer: namely, that I must recognize that I am a sinner. Without such a perspective, it is impossible to comprehend the fullness of what the gospel means. The gospel itself is fundamentally this perspective that God is presenting to us about who He is and about who we are. When we understand that God is holy and that we are morally unworthy before God and deserving of His wrath, that is the place where humility aids us in accepting that the gospel is what I really need. When we accept the gospel as true and begin to align our lives with the truth of the bible, we begin to face a tension in our lives that is all too familiar to any believer who has ever taken God seriously about trying to live a righteous life. This is where I'd like to spend a minute or two addressing that tension.

JPN, anyone who loves God and strives after righteousness comes face to face with his or her own moral weakness. We are exposed to a lot of theology that sometimes helps up in our pursuit of truth but also theology that confuses us and discourages us. Sometimes we ourselves hold fast to ways of thinking that really cause our minds terrible affliction and irrationalness. So we contend with all kinds of things which really hinder our understanding of what the bible is saying regarding God's character and His dealings with those whom He has chosen, especially as it relates to sin and struggling. One of the fundamental questions that could be asked is this: “does God expect us to never sin.” That's a potentially misleading question so let me clarify what I mean. For all of us at some point, when we fail morally (or sin) we feel this internal anguish and frustration and we ask ourselves “why did I do that?” We then wonder, does God hate me for this or will He ever find it in Himself to forgive me? But what is the truth on this matter?

I argue that if a person has been chosen to receive eternal life, God begins to personally go to work on a person's soul to purge the crud and filth that pollutes us and causes us grief and sorrow in this life. Often times what we are told by well meaning people is that we can overcome temptation and sin by following three simple steps or some acronym devised by someone claiming to have insight into overcoming temptation, etc. Paul, however, in Romans, argues that while we are yet still in these mortal bodies of ours, we struggle inwardly between what we desire from our inner man (which is to obey God) and from what the body of sin desires. He notes that in Romans 7, the struggle with which he himself endured with covetousness. His response to these struggles was this: “who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank my God through my Lord Jesus Christ.” I would say that Paul's argument throughout Ch 5 – 7 is that what God has changed in me through my rebirth (or salvation) is that now my inner man has been changed to see that it is a good thing to strive after the goodness and righteousness of God. However, I am not yet the man that Jesus Christ will one day create me to be. I struggle with sin and I hate the sin in my life because it is terribly burdensome and grievous to desire so badly in my heart to obey God but find that often times I fall so short of what I know is good and right.

So what is wrong or what am I to think about these things? In my own thinking, I have come to conclude that what marks me as a child of God is that I really look at the bible and what God says and from my heart I say this: “God, I really want to do what you say is right but sometimes I really have a hard time doing what I know is right because the desire to do evil is sometimes so strong in me.” It's not that I do wrong which disqualifies me in the eyes of God, it's that I desire to love God and do what He says that indicates that He has qualified me to receive His mercy. We have to accept that the fullness of all of the promises made to us by God in the gospel, namely that someday we will be glorified, has not happened yet. This is why we are told to persevere in faith and not to lose heart. And as Paul says, the sufferings of this life are not worthy to be compared to the glory that is to be revealed in us. And as John says in 1 John 3, Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

The thought in view here is this: God's children long to be free from sin because in their hearts, they long to be able to know only one choice and that is to be completely and thoroughly free from evil so as to obey God utterly. We don't fully comprehend what such a state of being will be like because we have not experienced that life yet…this is why John says “what we will be has not yet appeared.” But the hope in which he refers to is a hope which ultimately purifies our conscience to keep striving after good, and that hope is this: that someday we will be like our Lord Jesus Christ in His character and nature, the sinless and glorious Son of God. JPN, take courage in this and persevere in your struggles, “for we have not a high priest who cannot empathize with us in our weakness but was in all points tempted as we are yet without sin.” He understands our struggle and if we are God's children, then He is not ashamed to call us brothers (or family) even though we are morally unworthy of God.

JPN,
I do believe what the bible says about God's mercy and forgiveness.
The bible tells us that if we are sorry for our sins and ask for forgiveness God will forgive us as we forgive others.
That is He forgives in the same way we forgive. If we forgive with conditions then that is the way He forgives us.
Jesus tells us that those who do not forgive will not be forgiven.
Forgiving others is a blessing.
It takes a big load off ones mind and soul.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

revdrgade -

... but I fear that needinfo's understanding of justification is similar to that of the Pharisees, which was the only way to receive eternal life is by keeping the law.

Unfortunately there is a failure among most to distinguish between the oral law (talmud) and the written law (torah). The Pharisees followed the oral law. The oral law was a list of do's and don'ts created by the rabbi over the centuries. It was a burden. There were over 1,500 rules on how to observe the Sabbath alone. If one reads Matthew chapters 5-7 you will see that the Messiah is showing them how to correctly follow the written law, not the oral law of the Pharisees.

Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men[oral law].

Also see their condemnation in Matthew 23. It can be easily shown that Paul and the disciples all continued to follow and teach the written law.


Paul taught that "in the sight of God, no flesh shall be JUSTIFIED"... that is to say, no one can be justified in of himself;only God can justify a person...
Completely agree.


... render him/her worthy to receive eternal life.

Question: How does YHWH determine if you are worthy to receive eternal life? What is the standard?

Rev 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life[eternal life], and may enter through the gates into the city."

needinfo08,
Well said.
Fred.

needinfo08,
Well said.
Fred.

Thank you very much, Arcura! You appear to you have ears that hear :)

Needinfo –

I understand where you are going with that question, “How does YHWH determine if you are worthy to receive eternal life? What is the standard?” Let me explain what I don't mean by worthy and what I do mean by worthy.

First off, the fundamental nature of the gospel itself declares that all men are unworthy by God's standard of righteousness. It was for man's unworthiness and evil that Jesus Christ endured the crucifixion and the subsequent wrath of God. He was killed and condemned for our sins and the condemnation he endured from God was supposed to be our condemnation, because “the wages of sin is death.”

However, we all know that not everyone believes the gospel because not everyone sees it as necessary or cares to submit to God even though God's hand of mercy is being extended to everyone. But whether we believe or don't believe, the fact remains that God is interested in being merciful to sinners. Why is He willing to be merciful unless there is by necessity something to forgive…this is getting at the heart of why I use the term worthy.

I am arguing that no human being can ever be worthy of eternal life by his own standards because the only standard that matters is God's. Paul has stated that “no flesh will be justified in His sight” because “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” So then, is it possible for you and I to be worthy of eternal life in God's eyes? The answer I think is obvious…of course not! However, what is central to the gospel is that God does forgive some for their sins and declare them righteous, but not because they themselves are righteous but because God is willing to overlook their sins because of Jesus's sacrificial death on their behalf.

In this case, since some are being identified with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, then those who are identified with Christ are also being considered worthy of eternal life because upon the merit of Jesus, God is granting eternal life to them. It's not that man is striving to be worthy of eternal life, it is God reaching out among the whole of humanity and saving some to become heirs of the kingdom of God because He is desiring to do it…in effect, He is making us worthy to receive eternal life. By definition, worthy can simply mean having worth or merit or value; being honorable or admirable; "a worthy fellow." In the case of the bible, to be worthy means being made to have value or merit and we are made worthy because of our connectedness through Jesus Christ.

I want to introduce a concept I discovered a few years ago that is not being taught by mainstream churches, but is born out by the Scriptures.

ETERNAL LIFE (Salvation) and the FORGIVENESS OF SINS (Justification) are not the same thing.

A problem with Christian theology is that it confuses "ETERNAL LIFE" with the "FORGIVENESS OF SINS". We need to look at things the way they actually are not the way we have been taught they are.

I believe the following scriptures will show that "FORGIVENESS OF SINS" is by unmerited grace; "ETERNAL LIFE" is by striving to keep the commandents.


Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Acts 10:43 "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."

Romans 3:25 "Whom YHWH hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of YHWH;"

Ephesians 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"

Colossians 1:14 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:"
All the above verses talk about the "blood", "forgiveness", "grace". Heaven and Eternal Life are not mentioned.

ETERNAL LIFE is based on what you do after being FORGIVEN/CLEANSED:



Matthew 19:16 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have ETERNAL LIFE? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, YHWH: but IF THOU WILT ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS."

The Scriptures say YHWH cannot lie (Titus 1:2). The above verse is true. If ETERNAL LIFE could be obtained by some other means aside from keeping the commandments, Yahushua was obliged to state it. Look at the consistency throughout these verses:


Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of ETERNAL SALVATION unto all them that OBEY HIM;"

Romans 2:7 "To them who by PATIENT CONTINUANCE in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of ETERNAL SALVATION unto all them that OBEY HIM;"

Romans 2:7 "To them who by PATIENT CONTINUANCE in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:"

1 John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning (Torah). IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even ETERNAL LIFE."

Romans 6:22 "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to YHWH, ye have your fruit unto set-apartness, and the end EVERLASTING LIFE."

Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able."

Galatians 6:8 "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.":"

1 John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning (Torah). IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even Forgiveness by grace; Eternal life by obedience to the laws of the Kingdom."

Romans 6:22 "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to YHWH, ye have your fruit unto set-apartness, and the end EVERLASTING LIFE."

Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter, and shall not be able."

Galatians 6:8 "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

Need,

So what you are saying is that I can have my sins forgiven and still go to hell because I didn't earn eternal life by keeping the law. Is that correct?

Needinfo -

One of two things is true, regarding your desire to "...introduce a concept I discovered a few years ago that is not being taught by mainstream churches, but is born out by the Scriptures." Either you are right and the fact remains that mainstream churches are wrong (or hell-bound) or your interpretation is wrong... my guess is that you are right in your mind and so no amount of reasoning is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Hope the weather is nice in sunny Florida.

Jakester,

Couldn't have said it better myself. :)

needinfo08,
Eternal life can not be had without the remission of sins.
We MUST be forgiven and clean of sin to enter heaven, so the bible tells us in several ways.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Need,

so what you are saying is that i can have my sins forgiven and still go to hell because i didn't earn eternal life by keeping the law. Is that correct?

REv 3: 5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Exo 32:33 "And the YHWH said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."


I wouldn't say "earn eternal life" more like conform (have the mindset) to the laws of the Kingdom. There can be no denying that YHWH expects us to keep the commandments or HE wouldn't have given them.

"Blot out" to me implies that it was written down and then erased as oppose to never being written down. It is like being on probation. It is a hard reality, but it is what it is. I would rather know now then be deceived on Judgment Day.

"Keeping the commandments" is not an unachievable task. "Love YHWH with all thy heart, thy soul, thy mind and thy strength... love thy neighbor as thy self". The only thing most are not doing is keeping the 7 festivals.

needinfo -
...my guess is that you are right in your mind and so no amount of reasoning is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Don't you feel an obligation to help a misguided Brother? I do. That is why I share my views. I have a sincere desire to know the absolute truth since it effects my eternal destiny. I would think that most rational beings would feel the same way. If I am wrong please point it out so I can repent and get on the right track.

I would not have come to the conclusions that I have if I did not have a strong desire to "rightly divide" the Word. The Scriptures should never contradict each other and so far I have only found that my view does that.

Can you explain this one?

Matthew7:21-23

21Not every one that saith unto me, Master, Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity[without Torah].

I can and I do not have to twist logic or Scripture to do it.

Don't you feel an obligation to help a misguided Brother? I do. That is why I share my views. I have a sincere desire to know the absolute truth since it effects my eternal destiny. I would think that most rational beings would feel the same way. If I am wrong please point it out so I can repent and get on the right track.

I would not have come to the conclusions that I have if I did not have a strong desire to "rightly divide" the Word. The Scriptures should never contradict each other and so far I have only found that my view does that.

Can you explain this one?

Matthew7:21-23

21Not every one that saith unto me, Master, Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity[without Torah].

I can and I do not have to twist logic or Scripture to do it.

So can I... you didn't finish the verse. The LORD goes on to say I NEVER knew you. That is HUGE. He never knew these people. They had no real relationship with him and they NEVER did. He doesn't say... I knew you once but you sinned too many times so I dropped you. Never means NEVER. That isn't twisting scripture or twisting logic. It is just completing the verse.

so can i...you didn't finish the verse. the LORD goes on to say I NEVER knew you. That is HUGE. He never knew these people. They had no real relationship with him and they NEVER did. He doesnt say...i knew you once but you sinned too many times so i dropped ya. Never means NEVER. That isn't twisting scripture or twisting logic. It is just completing the verse.

Actually you didn't finish this verse. The key to this verse is "iniquity". He labels those that He never "know" intimately as "workers of iniquity". What is "inquity"?

"Iniquity" in the Greek is Strong’s Number 458 “anomia” :

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 458
Definition:

the condition of without law
because ignorant of it
because of violating it
contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness


So here is the verse with the Strong's Number by it

Matthew
7:23 And <2532> then <5119> will I profess <3670> unto them <846> * <3754>, I never <3763> knew <1097> you: <5209> depart <672> from <575> me, <1700> ye that work <2038> iniquity. <458>

And here is the verse with the actual definition of "iniquity" used

7:23 And then will I profess unto them *, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work contempt and violation of Torah. <458>

Another Example

Matthew
13:41 The Son <5207> of man <444> shall send forth <649> his <846> angels, <32> and <2532> they shall gather <4816> out of <1537> his <846> kingdom <932> all things <3956> that offend, <4625> and <2532> them which do <4160> iniquity; <458>

13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do violate the Torah. <458>


He is the Word become flesh, He is the embodiment of those virtues YHWH desires. He never "knew" them because they never became one with the Word. He only does what His Father commands, we are to imitate Messiah.

[QUOTE= A problem with Christian theology is that it confuses "ETERNAL LIFE" with the "FORGIVENESS OF SINS". We need to look at things the way they actually are not the way we have been taught they are.

I believe the following scriptures will show that "FORGIVENESS OF SINS" is by unmerited grace; "ETERNAL LIFE" is by striving to keep the commandents. QUOTE]


If by "striving to keep the commandments" you mean "the obedience of faith" then you are not far from the truth. But it is still not our "striving" that gives us eternal life. The "striving to keep the commandents" is the fruit of having had the Holy Spirit come into our hearts by the power of the gospel.

Rom 1:16-17

16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
NIV

Jesus said that a person who has received Him has become a new person who WILL do good works. He speaks of these good works as automatic to those who have become His:

Matt 7:15-19
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
NIV

BUT the Law is no longer a condemning requirement to those who are joined to God. The Law cannot condemn us. I suppose that is why you used the word "striving" instead of the requirement, "must do".

Salvation, Remission of sins, Eternal Life, etc are all ours through our faith in God and His fulfilled promise to us through His Son.

Even now we have eternal life and sit with Christ in the heavenlies:

Eph 2:6-10
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
NIV

The "CONFUSION" that you mention is not over grace and good works, but it is over the biblical distinction between JUSTIFICATION (being saved and having eternal life by faith) and SANCTIFICATION (the life of holiness after and due to being justified by the blood of ?Christ) not being taught by most of the teachers/preachers of the Word.

Actually you didn't finish this verse. The key to this verse is "iniquity". He labels those that He never "know" intimately as "workers of iniquity". What is "inquity"?

"Iniquity" in the Greek is Strong's Number 458 “anomia” :

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 458
Definition:

the condition of without law
because ignorant of it
because of violating it
contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness


So here is the verse with the Strong's Number by it

Matthew
7:23 And <2532> then <5119> will I profess <3670> unto them <846> * <3754>, I never <3763> knew <1097> you: <5209> depart <672> from <575> me, <1700> ye that work <2038> iniquity. <458>

And here is the verse with the actual definition of "iniquity" used

7:23 And then will I profess unto them *, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work contempt and violation of Torah. <458>

Another Example

Matthew
13:41 The Son <5207> of man <444> shall send forth <649> his <846> angels, <32> and <2532> they shall gather <4816> out of <1537> his <846> kingdom <932> all things <3956> that offend, <4625> and <2532> them which do <4160> iniquity; <458>

13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do violate the Torah. <458>


He is the Word become flesh, He is the embodiment of those virtues YHWH desires. He never "knew" them because they never became one with the Word. He only does what His Father commands, we are to imitate Messiah.

Well see I disagree with you the KEY word is NEVER. He said he NEVER knew them. They professed Christianty and yet were not Christians. Look at this country today... how many people say yes, I'm a Christian.. and they haven't got a clue what that even means. There are people going to church and working in the Church and doing good works and they are clueless as to a relationship with the Lord. I asked one who has been going to church for years what the gospel was... his reply? "the gospel is all the differnet stories in the Bible." Thankfully he NOW understands what the gospel is and is now Saved but there are many people who figure if they are pretty good in their eyes and go to church or at least own the name of Jesus somehow that will be enough. They are busy being good ( in their eyes) without a relationship with Jesus Christ.

REv 3: 5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Exo 32:33 "And the YHWH said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."


I wouldn't say "earn eternal life" more like conform (have the mindset) to the laws of the Kingdom. There can be no denying that YHWH expects us to keep the commandments or HE wouldn't have given them.

"Blot out" to me implies that it was written down and then erased as oppose to never being written down. It is like being on probation. It is a hard reality, but it is what it is. I would rather know now then be deceived on Judgment Day.

"Keeping the commandments" is not an unachievable task. "Love YHWH with all thy heart, thy soul, thy mind and thy strength...love thy neighbor as thy self". The only thing most are not doing is keeping the 7 festivals.

No one has ever kept the law (except Jesus Himself):

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
NKJV

And keeping most of it, but not all means that you are still guilty of all:

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one [point,] he is guilty of all.
NKJV

Keeping the law has nothing to do with salvation:

Gal 2:16
"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
NKJV

Gal 2:21
"I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain."
NKJV

Further, note that the law is not for those who are saved:

1 Tim 1:9-11
The law is not made for a righteous person, but for [the] lawless and insubordinate, for [the] ungodly and for sinners, for [the] unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
NKJV

But it is for the unsaved to lead them to Christ by showing them how far they are away from God's standard:

Gal 3:24-25
Therefore the law was our tutor [to bring us] to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

The worst of it is, if you place yourself under the law by trying to keep the law rather than depending solely upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, then you are judged by the law, and as Romans 3:23 says, there is no hope for those who choose to place themselves under the law.

Tj3,

EXCELLENT POST. I will never understand Christians that want to mix law with grace. It is frustrating.

If by "striving to keep the commandments" you mean "the obedience of faith" then you are not far from the truth. But it is still not our "striving" that gives us eternal life. The "striving to keep the commandents" is the fruit of having had the Holy Spirit come into our hearts by the power of the gospel.


Question: In order to spend eternity in Heaven is there any other requirement other than having my sins forgiven through confession?

Question: In order to spend eternity in Heaven is there any other requirement other than having my sins forgiven through confession?

What keeps people out of heaven? Isn't it sin?

Then, if Jesus took your sins on Himself to the cross... the barrier which kept you out is gone.

1 Cor 15:20-27
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death...
1 Cor 15:44-54
... If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam , a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
NIV

This is definitely speaking of IMMORTALITY/ETERNAL LIFE.

It is just fantastic great news that you and I have been forgiven all the mistakes/sins committed before and after we came to know Jesus; the sacrifice and propitiation for all our sins.

This message is the revelation of the love of God for you. You have eternal life. Celebrate it by praising God and seeking to be ever more obedient to our God. You are forgiven and are His called and adopted child.

What keeps people out of heaven? Isn't it sin?


And what is sin?

"...sin is transgression of the law" 1John 3:4

This is the only definition of sin that I know. So you statement could read:


What keeps people out of heaven? Isn't it trangressing the law?



Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Messiah is speaking to the "elect", these people are required to "overcome" or else they will be hurt by the second death.


Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

It has got to be apparent that something more is required than just the forgiveness of your sins. You have to meet some standard or else you are hurt by the second death or blotted out of the book of life.

Well see i disagree with you the KEY word is NEVER. He said he NEVER knew them. They professed Christianty and yet were not Christians. Look at this country today...how many people say yes, I'm a Christian..and they haven't got a clue what that even means. There are people going to church and working in the Church and doing good works and they are clueless as to a relationship with the Lord. I asked one who has been going to church for years what the gospel was...his reply? "the gospel is all the differnet stories in the Bible." Thankfully he NOW understands what the gospel is and is now Saved but there are many peopel who figure if they are pretty good in their eyes and go to church or at least own the name of Jesus somehow that will be enough. They are busy being good ( in their eyes) without a relationship with Jesus Christ.


1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The above clearly supports what I pointed out in Matthew. You cannot "know" Him apart from keeping the commandments. It as though this verse were inserted just to clear up Matthew 7:23.

Question: In order to spend eternity in Heaven is there any other requirement other than having my sins forgiven through confession?

No ones sins are forgiven through confession. They are only forgiven through receiving Jesus Christ as Saviour by means of the blood that he shed on the cross for our sins.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The above clearly supports what I pointed out in Matthew. You cannot "know" Him apart from keeping the commandments. It as though this verse were inserted just to clear up Matthew 7:23.

You did not read what it said. It says that we know Him and them keep His commandments. It is only through first being saved that we are even able to keep His commandments.

Needinfo,
Very good point.
Thanks,
Fred

No one has ever kept the law (except Jesus Himself):

Rom 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
NKJV
True, but "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness". You are covered for all past sins and sins not done willfully.


And keeping most of it, but not all means that you are still guilty of all:

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one [point,] he is guilty of all.
NKJV
True, trying to keep the law as Messiah did to earn your "forgiveness" is not possible.


Keeping the law has nothing to do with salvation:

Gal 2:16
"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
NKJV

Gal 2:21
"I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain."
NKJV
Right. The forgiveness of sin is entirely by grace.



Further, note that the law is not for those who are saved:

1 Tim 1:9-11
the law is not made for a righteous person, but for [the] lawless and insubordinate, for [the] ungodly and for sinners, for [the] unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
NKJV

But it is for the unsaved to lead them to Christ by showing them how far they are away from God's standard:

Gal 3:24-25
Therefore the law was our tutor [to bring us] to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV
Throughout your post you are referring to the first step which is justification/salvation/forgiveness etc. The first step qualifies you to run the race, you still have to make it to the finish line to receive eternal life.

Paul knew it:


Phill 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Although Paul made his confession and preached to many he still was hoping to qualify for the resurrection. He knew there was more to eternal life than justification.



The worst of it is, if you place yourself under the law by trying to keep the law rather than depending solely upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, then you are judged by the law, and as Romans 3:23 says, there is no hope for those who choose to place themselves under the law.
The reality is that you have 1/2 the "Good News". You know how to have your sins forgiven, but you don't know the way that leads to eternal life.

Is our Saviour a liar?


Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, YHWH: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

C'mon, it should be in red in your Scriptures. Trust Him, He knows

You did not read what it said. It says that we know Him and them keep His commandments. It is only through first being saved that we are even able to keep His commandments.

Ok, maybe we can agree that at some point one needs to keep the commandments.

No ones sins are forgiven through confession. They are only forgiven through receiving Jesus Christ as Saviour by means of the blood that he shed on the cross for our sins.

I sure hope you are wrong.

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Ok, maybe we can agree that at some point one needs to keep the commandments.

We should, but no one has, therefore to say that we need to is incorrect.

Needinfo,
You have made some excellent points.
Well said, well done.
We must DO what Jesus, our savior, told us to DO.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I sure hope you are wrong.

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Ah, but you did not say what we confess or who to! And it is not the confession which cleanses our sins, but the blood that He shed on the cross.

1 John 1:7-8
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

What we need to confess is to Jesus that we are sinners with no hope outside of His sacrifice on the cross, and to confess that we submit ourselves to Him as Lord.

Just any confession doesn't do it.

We can not ear our way to heaven.
But we can and should try our best to Do all that Jesus told us to do.
A good strong faith will help us do those things.'
Faith and doing what we should gives us the true hope of salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

True, but "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness". You are covered for all past sins and sins not done willfully.

Where did it say ONLY all past sins? It says ALL unrighteousness.


True, trying to keep the law as Messiah did to earn your "forgiveness" is not possible.


Right. The forgiveness of sin is entirely by grace.

We are making progress.


Throughout your post you are referring to the first step which is justification/salvation/forgiveness etc. The first step qualifies you to run the race, you still have to make it to the finish line to receive eternal life.

But what is it that scripture refers to by running the race? Scripture is clear that it has nothing to do with keeping all the commandments, or that would leave out Paul:

Rom 7:19-23
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
NKJV

Are you saying that Paul went to hell?


The reality is that you have 1/2 the "Good News". You know how to have your sins forgiven, but you don't know the way that leads to eternal life.

Are you saying that there is more to the gospel to be saved than God said in His word?

John 6:36-38
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
NKJV

But you say that we may be cast out.

Rom 5:8-9
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
NKJV

Justified by His blood we shall be saved from wrath. But you say that there is more than God said.

Acts 16:30-31
30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
NKJV

Did Paul forget to tell him the rest?


Is our Saviour a liar?


Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, YHWH: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Did you read the rest? Next it says:

Matt 19:19-22
20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
NKJV

Now before we go on, we need to point out that the young man lied. He had not kept the commandments, and here is why I know:

1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
NKJV

So Jesus showed that He is fact fell short and was not able to be saved by keeping the law. Now let's look at the rest of the discussion:

Matt 19:23-27
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
NKJV

Note that Jesus said that keeping the commandments would not bring the young man to salvation - it was not possible.
No our Saviour is not a liar. He was right and you were wrong!

Needinfo,
You have made some excellent points.
Well said, well done.
We must DO what Jesus, our savior, told us to DO.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thanks Fred. We are all in this together, no one gets a pass on Judgment Day. You would think we would want to embrace the truth. Paul sure did. After killing Israelites, he did a 360 on the Damacus road and said "Master, what wilt thou have me to do?". He accepted the truth without hesitation.

Shalom/Peace

We should, but no one has, therefore to say that we need to is incorrect.

Correction: Everyone needs to or else they will not be admitted into the Kingdom.

These have kept the commandments:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

These have been a law unto themselves:

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


Romans 3:4 ".. let YHWH be true, but every man a liar;

How can anyone argue when the Scriptures are so clear?

Where did it say ONLY all past sins? It says ALL unrighteousness.


Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of YHWH;

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Galatains 6:7
Be not deceived; YHWH is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

You cannot say you are "saved" then go and fornicate and come home and ask for forgiveness. You have sinned wilfully and YHWH will not be mocked. This concept about "wilfull sin" ought to be intuitive.

P.S.-So if anyone is they need to stop and repent now.

Correction: Everyone needs to or else they will not be admitted into the Kingdom.

Then, according to Romans 3:23, there is no hope. Your gospel is therefore not the "good news", but a condemnation.


These have kept the commandments:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Where does it say that they kept all His commandments? Because scripture says that anyone who says that is a liar.

1 John 1:10
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

Have you kept all the commandments?

Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of YHWH;

You did not answer the question. Where does scripture say that the sacrifice on the cross ONLY pays for our past sins.

That is what you claimed.

Did Paul forget to tell him the rest?


First let me repeat what was a problem for Gentiles who spoke the same language as Paul yet 1,950 years ago still misunderstood him. As Peter points out:


2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The Scriptures say "judge a man by his fruits"

Let's examine some of Paul's fruit:


I Corinthians 5:7-8 7 “Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Messiah our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.”

Why is Paul telling Gentile converts to keep the Passover Feast? Are not the feasts done away with for "Christians"? Why would they learn anything about the law that had passed away for "Christians"

I Corinthians 10:16 “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Messiah?”

The cup of blessing is a toast in the Passover Seder meal. Corinth was a prosperous, pagan and immoral city whose "Christian church" was dominated by Gentile converts. How and why do these Gentile converts know about the Passover celebration if they are not to keep the feasts?

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to YHWH: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Paul determines to give the Gentiles 4 cores concepts from the Levitical law and states they will learn the rest of "Moses" every sabbath day in the synagogues. Does it seem strange that over the past 2,000 years this contradiction has not been address by "the church"?

Acts 24:5-6 “For we have found this man (Paul) a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.”

The Nazarenes are Israelites that believed Yahushua was the Messiah. Epiphanius an early church member has this to say about them:

"We shall now especially consider heretics who call themselves Nazarenes; they are mainly Jews and nothing else. They make use not only of the New Testament, but they also use in a way the Old Testament of the Jews. For they do not forbid the books of the Law, the Prophets and the Writings...so that they are approved of by the Jews, from whom the Nazarenes do not differ in anything, and they do profess all the dogmas pertaining to the prescriptions of the Law and the customs of the Jews, except they believe in Messiah. They preach that there is but One YHWH and His Son Yahushua. They are learned in the Hebrew language, for they, like the Jews, read the whole Law, then the Prophets...They differ from the Jews because they believe in Messiah, and from the Christians in that they are to this day bound to the Jewish rites such as circumcision, the Sabbath and other ceremonies."


According to the Scripture, Paul is the ringleader of this sect of Nazarenes.

I have a lot more but I don't want to lose your focus.

Now before we go on, we need to point out that the young man lied. He had not kept the commandments, and here is why I know:

1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
NKJV

No one except for the Messiah "kept the law" perfectly, but if they sinned they had to sacrifice an animal to make atonement. That is "keeping the law". You strive to do what you are required when you miss (without premeditation) you can be forgiven.

If the ruler had told a lie to Messiah He would have told him to his face. You make Messiah a liar by your interpretation; if He said "go and do this and you will be perfect" then Messiah is a liar according to your reasoning. Your argument is flawed based on that.

Note that Jesus said that keeping the commandments would not bring the young man to salvation - it was not possible.
No our Saviour is not a liar. He was right and you were wrong!

You are clearly wrong here. Messiah was asked a point blank question. "How do I inherit eternal life?" There are 3 parallel accounts Mathew 19:16-26, Mark 10:17-27 and Luke 18:18-27. In Mark and Luke, Messiah states "one thing thou lackest", not "it is impossible". He could not say it if it were not true. He was required to keep the commandments plus sell all he had because of covetousness.

Study to shew thyself approved unto YHWH, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Needinfo,

If you were rightly dividing the Word, you wouldn't be mixing law with grace.

Do you follow the law? Do you not eat pork and follow the sabbath. Many Christians do... they are in error.
Note:

I say this all the time and I am sure people get sick of me repeating... but you need to understand who the writer is and who they are speaking to. Got to put everything in context. :)

Then, according to Romans 3:23, there is no hope. Your gospel is therefore not the "good news", but a condemnation.

You are missing the concept. I will repeat an example I gave before.

You are guilty of murder. You by going out and helping the poor, volunteering, etc. (doing good works) are still guilty of murder. You have broken the law. You are arrested. Your good works did not/can not save you from the electric chair. Only a pardon from the Governor who has the authority can save you. You repent of the crime of murder and ask for forgiveness. The Governor grants your parole. And says "Go and do not violate any more laws." Can you go out and commit murder again? Of course not!


Being a murderer is you before accepting Messiah. Strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without YHWH in the world:
Your "good works" could not save you from the electric chair (going to hell)
You repent and the Governor (YHWH) forgives you.
You were given mercy because you had a troubled background and didn't know any better.
You were a Gentile a far off but now are "grated in"
Now that you know better you cannot knowingly violate anymore laws (you must keep the commandments).


You are forgiven by grace not by keeping the law. Period. But how do you conduct yourself going forward? You strive to keep the commandments because that is your Father's will. Those our the laws of the new country you want to be a citizen of. Most Christians are keeping the 10 commandments but they need to add the 7 festivals and dietary laws. The rest are mostly not applicable.

needinfo,

Jesus said this to us... I will never leave you or forsake you. Notice he didn't put one single condition such as... I will never leave you or forsake you as long as you don't forsake me. The Apostle Paul says we are SEALED with the Holy spirit... now how can we be UNSEALED and at what poing does it happen? It is silly.

I do think that a Christian can sin and continue on in that sin without repenting. Sometimes the Lord takes him home because he is no longer a testimony. Paul even says that there is a sin unto death. You do not work for you salvation by keeping the law. Jesus said it the best hanging on the cross... IT IS FINISHED.

If thou shalt confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead... THOU SHALT BE SAVED.

It isn't hard to understand.. it is simple. WE make it hard when we refuse to rightly divide the word. Stop mixing law with grace.

Then, according to Romans 3:23, there is no hope. Your gospel is therefore not the "good news", but a condemnation.

Where does it say that they kept all His commandments? Because scripture says that anyone who says that is a liar.

1 John 1:10
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

Have you kept all the commandments?


Remember a christain song from a few years ago:

"We fall down, but we get up. We fall down, but we get up. We fall down, but we get up. For a saint is just a sinner who fell down, but got up."

That is striving to keep the commandments, it is a process. You don't keep making the same mistake over and over again. You lost your temper and cursed. Confess it and ask for forgiveness and He is faithful and just to forgive you of all unrighteousness. But you must purpose not to curse anymore.

"Keeping" is making the mental assent to do it. You are trying, that is the point.

needinfo,

Jesus said this to us....I will never leave you or forsake you. Notice he didn't put one single condition such as....I will never leave you or forsake you as long as you don't forsake me. The Apostle Paul says we are SEALED with the Holy spirit...now how can we be UNSEALED and at what poing does it happen? It is silly.

I do think that a Christian can sin and continue on in that sin without repenting. sometimes the Lord takes him home because he is no longer a testimony. Paul even says that there is a sin unto death. you do not work for you salvation by keeping the law. Jesus said it the best hanging on the cross...IT IS FINISHED.

If thou shalt confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead...THOU SHALT BE SAVED.

It isn't hard to understand..it is simple. WE make it hard when we refuse to rightly divide the word. Stop mixing law with grace.

You have to examine the Scriptures in their entirety. Here is a partial list of verses that contradict "once saved always saved" or "eternal life by grace":


Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear YHWH, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For YHWH shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Phil 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Rev3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his agents.

You are not earning eternal life you are complying with what the King has ordered. You can't make up your own laws and live in America. You are not a ruler unto yourself; they are outside the gate.

You did not answer the question. Where does scripture say that the sacrifice on the cross ONLY pays for our past sins.

That is what you claimed.
I didn't realize we were going to play a semantics game. The intent of my post is to distinguish between willful sin and sin that was done in ignorance. "Past sins" implies sins done before you knew any better or before you came to repentance. "Willfull sins" are those done with pre-meditation. I am stating that those will not be forgiven. If you doubt what I am saying, here's a simple test. Go out tonight and commit some type of physical sin on purpose. Come home and pray for forgiveness. Then on Judgment Day confidently ask the Father to show you the verse that condemns you.

Ah, but you did not say what we confess or who to! ...
Just any confession doesn't do it.

Gee, you got me there. You are stuck on the opening act; I talking about the finale.

Needinfo,

If you were rightly dividing the Word, you wouldn't be mixing law with grace.

do you follow the law? do you not eat pork and follow the sabbath. Many Christians do...they are in error.
Note:

I say this all the time and i am sure people get sick of me repeating...but you need to understand who the writer is and who they are speaking to. gotta put everything in context. :)
I take it you are convinced that the law is not applicable to anyone anymore? If the law is done away with why is it being kept during the Millennial Reign?

Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Master of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Overheard in 30AD

YHWH: "Hey, Israel. Remember those 4,000 years when I told you to keep my law throughout your generations. I was only kidding. I must have had a brain fart. I was young then. All you have to do is believe real hard and then you can eat pork, break the sabbath, basically do whatever you want. Just ignore all the prophecies of being decieved in the last days. I didn't know what I was doing again. Oh, but the tithe, that one you need to keep doing. Well, Got to go make room for all the worldly christians that will be raptured out. Wouldn't want them to have to endure anything. Their special. Not everyone can believe real hard like them."

Do all believe The Word is Christ? Do all believe The Word was made Flesh? Do all believe The Word is the Bread of Life? The Bread and The Blood are what we eat and drink. Both must be found worthy in Christ or we are double minded.


James 4:5-6 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

To walk in Christ after baptism is newness of life, and we are to remain in the light. The light is Christ. Christ gave us a lamp for our path in The Word/Flesh/Bread of Life.

Psalms 119:104-115 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments. My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law. The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts. Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they [are] the rejoicing of my heart. I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes always, even unto the end. SAMECH. I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love. Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word. Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.


James 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

needinfo08 - I have just one question that I do hope you will answer. Have you ever willfully sinned since becoming a believer?

needinfo08 - I have just one question that I do hope you will answer. Have you ever willfully sinned since becoming a believer?

I definitely don't want to lie. But when I first became a beleiver, I did something that I may have not been sure was wrong but after I did it I felt the worst conviction in my spirit and never again came close to a repeat.

I think there are degrees to things also. You may see a beautiful woman and as a reflex stare but when you become aware of it, you need to stop. If you feel the unction from the Spirit to turn away and you think to yourself "forget that", then there is a problem. Habitually ignoring the Spirit will lead to a problem. But adultery, fornication, idolatry I think are more serious and might be a 1 strike your out. Of course, these are my views but I know we can't ignore the Spirit forever and expect to be Blessed.

needinfo - I love the fact that you were willing to be a little forthcoming about your personal life. I didn't ask to embarrass you but to put your own theology on the spot.

Your answer is revealing, though. You claim to have had only one experience since you became a believer in which you may have sinned willfully, but it really doesn't sound like an admission of guilt. Frankly, I find it really hard to believe that there could be only one occasion in your life as a Christian where you sinned willfully. Again, I'm not saying this to embarrass you but I just don't think you are being honest with yourself.

Secondly, I note your hesitation to speak confidently about your position on willful sins leading to condemnation: "But adultery, fornication, idolatry I think are more serious and MIGHT be a 1 strike your out." You said MIGHT... why are you so tentative to speak confidently about your real position? Your position is that you cannot receive eternal life if you sin willfully after you receive the truth. By your own logic and theology, you would be disqualified from eternal life due to your own willful sin after becoming a believer. And you admitted that you did sin willfully after you became a believer. My friend, either there is 1 strike you're out as you put it, or there aren't any strikes. It can't be both and I sense that you're hesitancy in being confident in your position stems from the fact that you realize that you are a sinner and that if God were keeping strikes against you, it would be game over for you.

I'm just trying to be honest and help you see the real implications of your own theology as it relates to your life.

By the way, I know I have sinned willfully since becoming a believer but I don't say that glibly... I do desire to follow God and do His will.

My friend, either there is 1 strike you're out as you put it, or there aren't any strikes.

How did you get to "there aren't any strikes"?

Maybe we will be judged by the level of our understanding of things at different points in our walk(judges based on your heart). I don't know. I do know that the Spirit leads me and convicts me of sin.

Rev 2:23 "... know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts:
and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

I personally think that physical sins are on a short leash because of what Paul says:


1 Cor 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Set-Apart Spirit which is in you, which ye have of YHWH, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore esteem YHWH in your body, and in your spirit, which are YHWH's.

Obviously, I don't know everything, but I think what I have presented is valid. The Scriptures say, YHWH will not be mocked and you reap what you sow. If you continue to fornicate, worship idols, blaspheme, lie, etc. the gates to the Kingdom will be closed to you. You can bank on that. I make a distinction between mental and physical sins because the Scriptures do. I would say I have not willfully physically sinned but like I said I was not certain at the time. But then again the Spirit is still with me so either I didn't sin willfully or there is a learning curve.

Was there ever a time when I felt the Spirit tell me something and I said "No"? I don't think so. I am not emphatic because I don't want to be wrong in my recollection and have to answer for it. I am fallible. The Spirit had led me to fast for 10 days with nothing but water. I didn't know how long I was to fast in the beginning and after about 5 days I really felt like saying no. But I did not. That and when I was told to stop smoking cold turkey after 17 years were 2 of the hardest things I was asked to do.

One thing is for sure, there is more to being a believer than what is taught at most "churches". And it took me years to piece all these things together (including things that I have talked about yet) so I don't expect people to drop what they believe overnight. But there is no denying that there is truth to what I am saying, it is stirring us in the face whenever you open the Scriptures.

I take it you are convinced that the law is not applicable to anyone anymore? If the law is done away with why is it being kept during the Millennial Reign?

Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Master of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Overheard in 30AD

YHWH: "Hey, Israel. Remember those 4,000 years when I told you to keep my law throughout your generations. I was only kidding. I must have had a brain fart. I was young then. All you have to do is believe real hard and then you can eat pork, break the sabbath, basically do whatever you want. Just ignore all the prophecies of being decieved in the last days. I didn't know what I was doing again. Oh, but the tithe, that one you need to keep doing. Well, Got to go make room for all the worldly christians that will be raptured out. Wouldn't want them to have to endure anything. Their special. Not everyone can believe real hard like them."

Ok... fine. I'm not going to convince you of anything and now you are being rude and condescending... Gee. Wonder if that is a willful sin? Naah couldn't be... you don't do that anymore. LOL ;)

Ok...fine. I'm not going to convince you of anything and now you are being rude and condescending.... Gee. wonder if that is a willful sin? naah couldn't be...you don't do that anymore. LOL ;)

Sorry you are offended. My point was to show how implausible that theology is through satire. You have to admit that is pretty much what would have to have taken place for the law to be replaced.

[QUOTE= It has got to be apparent that something more is required than just the forgiveness of your sins. You have to meet some standard or else you are hurt by the second death or blotted out of the book of life.[/QUOTE]

Maybe our difference in only on the concept of "required" which you used in the above quote.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote a book on "The Cost of Discipleship". In it he addressed what he called "cheap grace". I believe this "cheap grace" is what you are addressing. There are, indeed, many who call themselves Christians because one day they heard the word of free salvation, rejoiced in it, and then went back to their own way. Jesus tells of them in the parable of the seed/word scattered in the field. Most who "received" the Word had no productive life in the kingdom of God. The Word died in and with them.

But those who received the word were said to be the "good soil". They were productive in the kingdom of God and bore much fruit.

Are we talking about this difference? : People who think that they are saved because they met Jesus one day and then returned to their sinful lives vs those who left everything and followed Him for the rest of their lives?

We can't do much for the "rocky soil...thistle" people.
And those who HAVE given their lives to their Lord only need encouragement to keep trusting in Him as the one who strengthens us during the times when God seems absent for a time.


John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires ?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
NIV


Rom 13:8-10
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
NIV

Sorry you are offended. My point was to show how implausible that theology is through satire. You have to admit that is pretty much what would have to have taken place for the law to be replaced.

Need,
Hey, I am NOT offended. ANDI was using sarcasm to show you that you willfully sin whether you choose to call it that or not. My point is to show you how preposterous your claims that the Holy Spirt can leave a born again believe... that is the whole point of being born again. We are sealed with Christ Spirit to do things that we could NEVER do in the flesh. We live in the age of Grace and that is a much higher standard than the law... fyi. To say that the Holy Spirit suddenly leaves a believer really is nuts. At what point does he do this? How far is too far. Please.

I am free to eat pork and I do. I don't follow the sabbath because I am not a Jew under the law. I am not willfully sinning... I am rightly dividing the Word of truth. But I have been round and round this mountain with a few others. I never convinced them... and they never ever convinced me. So... you can put yourself under the law if you wish. ME? I am going to go whip up some fried pork chops for dinner. :D

Maybe our difference in only on the concept of "required" which you used in the above quote.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote a book on "The Cost of Discipleship". In it he addressed what he called "cheap grace". I believe this "cheap grace" is what you are addressing. There are, indeed, many who call themselves Christians because one day they heard the word of free salvation, rejoiced in it, and then went back to their own way. Jesus tells of them in the parable of the seed/word scattered in the field. Most who "received" the Word had no productive life in the kingdom of God. The Word died in and with them.

But those who received the word were said to be the "good soil". They were productive in the kingdom of God and bore much fruit.

Are we talking about this difference? : People who think that they are saved because they met Jesus one day and then returned to their sinful lives vs those who left everything and followed Him for the rest of their lives?

We can't do much for the "rocky soil...thistle" people.
And those who HAVE given their lives to their Lord only need encouragement to keep trusting in Him as the one who strengthens us during the times when God seems absent for a time.


John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires ?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
NIV


Rom 13:8-10
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
NIV
I like what you are saying and I hope you are right. I have agonized over this for years. There are just some verses that I cannot get out of my mind. However, Romans is a Chapter I have not read much so maybe I will dig into it again. We are in definite agreement that about "cheap grace" though.
Peace

needinfo08.
You are right again.
Don't let Tj3 mislead you as he has others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

No one except for the Messiah "kept the law" perfectly, but if they sinned they had to sacrifice an animal to make atonement.

That sacrifice did nothing to pay the price for sin:

Heb 10:3-6
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
NKJV

The Nazarenes are Israelites that believed Yahushua was the Messiah. Epiphanius an early church member has this to say about them:

"We shall now especially consider heretics who call themselves Nazarenes; they are mainly Jews and nothing else. They make use not only of the New Testament, but they also use in a way the Old Testament of the Jews. For they do not forbid the books of the Law, the Prophets and the Writings...so that they are approved of by the Jews, from whom the Nazarenes do not differ in anything, and they do profess all the dogmas pertaining to the prescriptions of the Law and the customs of the Jews, except they believe in Messiah. They preach that there is but One YHWH and His Son Yahushua. They are learned in the Hebrew language, for they, like the Jews, read the whole Law, then the Prophets...They differ from the Jews because they believe in Messiah, and from the Christians in that they are to this day bound to the Jewish rites such as circumcision, the Sabbath and other ceremonies."


According to the Scripture, Paul is the ringleader of this sect of Nazarenes.

I have a lot more but I don't want to lose your focus.

So now you call Paul a leader of heretics, and calling the Nazarenes heretics! Wow. Perhaps you'd like to validate your claims from scripture. BTW, your quote is from a man who lived in the 4th century - Paul lived in the 1st century.

That says more than I could even say in exposing how far off base you are.

Remember Paul was called by God to write the largest portion of the New Testament.

BTW, it is not Paul who in scripture is called a Nazarene:

Matt 2:19-23
19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the young Child's life are dead." 21 Then he arose, took the young Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned by God in a dream, he turned aside into the region of Galilee. 23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene."
NKJV

needinfo08.
You are right again.


Hey Fred. You surprise me again. I did not think that you would be supporting the view that the Apostle Paul was a heretic!

I didn't realize we were going to play a semantics game.

The context of any passage is important.

Can you show me where scripture says that Jesus sacrifice on the cross ONLY pays for past sins?

Read 1 John 1:9

Enough is enough!!

You are missing the concept. I will repeat an example I gave before.

I am not after your examples. I take my doctrine from scripture. Show me where scripture says that the sacrifice on the cross ONLY pays the price for our past sins.

Enough is enough,
That's the subject of this thread.

Paul was not a heretic.
But you believe in some heretic theologies as I have pointed out many times on other boards.

Enough is enough,
That's the subject of this thread.

Hey Fred - did you just catch on to the topic after 85 posts?

Paul was not a heretic.

Agreed. Why then did you agree with the posts by a person who is promoting exactly that?


But you believe in some heretic theologies as I have pointed out many times on other boards.

You make these claims, as personal attacks, but of course you have yet to actually find anything that I have said which is heretical. Hateful personal comments like that say more about you than me, Fred.

I invite anyone to check the links at the bottom of each of my posts.

Tj3,
Wrong again.
It is not a personal attack.
It is pointing out the truth about what you believe.
And I have discussed that with you several times, but you tend to ignore what the bible says about several things such as Mary is the Mother of God the Son, baptism is needed for salvation, there will be no rapture as the Last Days book try to teach, and that the Eucharist is indeed the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
I believe what the bible teaches about those. You apparently do not.

Tj3,
Wrong again.
It is not a personal attack.
It is pointing out the truth about what you believe.

Hey Fred - don't just post abusive remarks - find something from myself website, my posts, whatever I have said, and post it here if yolu really believe what you saying.

Otherwise you are just being abusive.


And I have discussed that with you several times, but you tend to ignore what the bible says about several things such as Mary is the Mother of God the Son,

Mary is the mother of Jesus, but God pre-existed Mary and has no mother.

That is orthodox Christian teaching, Fred. To suggest that God had a human mother means that God (the trinity) had a beginning and started life as a human. That is Mormonism, not Christianity.

God entered the word manifest in the flesh, through Mary as the human vessel, as scripture says in 1 Tim 3:16.

http://www.geocities.com/smithtj.geo/catholicism/Motherofgod.html


baptism is needed for salvation

Really? Prove that from scripture.

You can trust in water. I trust in the blood that Jesus shed on the cross.


there will be no rapture

This is not an essential one way or the other, but scripture does teach that there is a rapture. I do not see that this is a matter to divide over though.


as the Last Days book try to teach,

What book is that Fred? I never heard of a "Last Days" book.


and that the Eucharist is indeed the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

http://www.geocities.com/smithtj.geo/baptism/baptism.html


I believe what the bible teaches about those. You apparently do not.

Quite the contrary. I would be willing to discuss ANY of these with you strictly from the Bible, but you refuse each time.

Now, what is interesting is when you promoted the belief that men become gods and defended the Mormon teaching. Now that is heresy!

Tj3
If you think there is something wrong about Fred and you find it difficult to communicate with him , pleas do as the Scripture says...
Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
If in your opinion Fred is heretic then please do as Paul says.
If Fred is wrong about something you are not helping him that way!

Fred
You are a wise man!
Don't bite the hook.
1 Peter 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously

Tj3
If you think there is something wrong about Fred and you find it difficult to communicate with him , pleas do as the Scripture says ...
Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
If in your opinion Fred is heretic then please do as Paul says.
If Fred is wrong about something you are not helping him that way!

Adam,

Perhaps you did not notice who called who a heretic, and you don't know the history here.

I have no issues with Fred. Fred has spent a large part of his life following me around internet harassing me with messages like you see here. I keep offering to take this off line to discuss whatever makes him so bitter, but he won't - he just carries on. So as long as he does so, I will continue to refute his false teachings and support what he says where he speaks the truth.

To be quite honest, I care about and am concerned about Fred. I do hope and pray that I will meet him as a brother in Christ in eternity, and have told him that I will never close the door on him, in the hope that he can someday put aside the bitterness. If you want to help, encourage Fred to bury the hatchet somewhere other than my head so that we can discuss whatever it is that makes him exhibit such bitterness toward me and others who disagree with him.

Tom

Hey Fred. You surprise me again. I did not think that you would be supporting the view that the Apostle Paul was a heretic!

Tom
That is the only reason why I suggested what I suggested.
If you think that someone finds Paul a heretic then probably you find that someone also a heretic.
If I am mistaken here , I apologize!

Tom
That is the only reason why I suggested what I suggested.
If you think that someone finds Paul a heretic then probably you find that someone also a heretic.
If I am mistaken here , I apologize!

Adam,

My focus is not to declare people heretics. I would very rarely make such a statement. I declare doctrines to be heresy, as I did here. If I was intending on declaring Fred a heretic, why would I have said that I was surprised that he was supporting the doctrine that Paul was a heretic? My focus is to see people come to an understanding of the gospel.

Does Fred believe heretical doctrines? Yes, we have discussed those before. But why is it necessary to get into labeling if there is no benefit? Fred has been extremely bitter with me for many years now, but I hold to my view that the door will never close on him. Whenever he wants to walk through, I am waiting and would be pleased to welcome him. Personally, I like to see Fred bury the hatchet, dispense with the bitterness, and agree to take it off line and be willing to have a honest respectful discussion.

But in any case, this is not the proper place to discuss this. As I said, if you want to help, then the best way is to get Fred to drop the attitude and agree to take it off line. In any case, I don't think that airing it here is beneficial, nor is it on topic. If you don't like what I am saying, then I think you know the Biblical approach to deal with that.

Tom

HeyTom Smith Tj3,
Why is it that when you try to tell me abiut my beliefs that you don't agree with that it is Ok, but when I do the same for you you call it a personal attack.
That is why I should ignore you and from now on I think I will.
Goodbye Tom
Fred

HeyTom Smith Tj3,
Why is it that when you try to tell me abiut my beliefs that you don't agree with that it is Ok, but when I do the same for you you call it a personal attack.

Because, Fred, when I disagree with your beliefs, I do so respectful and go to scripture to see what it says. I don't make it personal. I do not call you names. I do not go around just posting messages attacking you by name. When I disagree with you, I give a reason, I provide scripture, and am always willing to discuss it respectfully, and have encouraged you to do so likewise. I also do not state that your beliefs are wrong without explaining what I am talking about. Lastly, I do not call orthodox Bible based Christian theology "heresy".

Those are the areas in which our approaches differ.


That is why I should ignore you and from now on I think I will.
Goodbye Tom
Fred

Fred, if I had a dime for every time that you have said that, I could retire! Let's see how long that lasts this time.

Don't forget, the door never closes, Fred. As I said to Adam, and as I have told you hundreds of times over the years - anytime you want to put aside the bitterness, the door is open and I will be here to welcome you. Take me up on it!

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires ?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
NIV


This scripture was a very good refer to consider a requirement. And the verses go on to confirm the Bread of Life/Flesh/ The Word is what we follow in our requirement. Mamma was the bread of life within the spiritual realm given. On earth today, Christ/The Word is what was given and we are to eat. All that is written is the requirement, and we must consider the Bread as important as the Blood. One without the other is not acceptable.

John 6:30-38 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.



Rom 13:8-10
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
NIV

Another great refer, and look deeper at what LOVE brings to our hearts. The unwillingness to do any unclean act... When we love those around us, we would not try to hurt them. And when we Love God we desire not to go against what "His Will" is for us. Sure we still fail each and everyday, but what is within the heart of love is what matters. Our Father knows each of us, and the price was paid. God decides whether your heart holds the Love/Faith that is of His Will. Walking in Christ is not an easy, staying in His Light and giving up what is a short life here on earth is not easy. But Love for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit brings great reward within the heart, mind, and soul. Repent and pray the prayer Christ taught us. Realize the words of that prayer begins each day with love, and given hope to doing all that is Our Father's Will.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

2 Cr 6:16-17 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

[QUOTE . Walking in Christ is not an easy, staying in His Light and giving up what is a short life here on earth is not easy. But Love for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit brings great reward within the heart, mind, and soul. Repent and pray the prayer Christ taught us. Realize the words of that prayer begins each day with love, and given hope to doing all that is Our Father's Will. QUOTE]


Amen!

sndbay,
Yes,
Amen to that.
Fred

Obviously, I don't know everything, but I think what I have presented is valid. The Scriptures say, YHWH will not be mocked and you reap what you sow. If you continue to fornicate, worship idols, blaspheme, lie, etc. the gates to the Kingdom will be closed to you. You can bank on that. .

There is scripture that tells us not to frustrate over the law, and I believe Peter was shown this in Acts when the Gentiles were made clean, and Peter was not to make unclean what God had made clean. I realize that confusion was brought from man on this event, yet if you find the evident identity in the 3 times food was dropped, knowing that 3 does prove intervention from God whenever it is spoken in scripture. It was that evident identity that Peter was to view in comparing His food laws verses the Gentiles. Any confusion on this is not surprising of satan's work. Note refer: (Acts 10:28)

Those who find within their heart to do the Will of God, will look to understand and follow. And I believe Christ has given us the right to repent, not the right to sin. Christ did the Will of His Father that sent Him.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

My heart and mind leads me in awareness to what was created by God, and what then was purposed by God. Eating pork is something I do not do because the swine was created to eat the waste of the land. And was purposed to have a flesh that would not sweat and cure. Thus it leave waste within, and when eaten is not healthy. None of this causes me to think it is sinful, yet it is unhealthy food.

Please be aware that the flesh body of all generations do sin, and as noted before the price was paid for all sin by Christ. However God gaves us the lamp of the law to give light to our paths. Christ walked in the light, and we should walk in His Light.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

sndbay,
The point needinfo08 was trying to make, I believe, is that WILLFULLY continuing to sin is a no no to salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
The point needinfo08 was trying to make, I believe, is that WILLFULLY continuing to sin is a no no to salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

That is not what he said, but even that is a mis-reading of what the passage says in context:

The whole chapter is about salvation. For example:

Heb 10:11-18
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
NKJV

So if a person receives the sacrifice on the cross, there is no longer an offering for sin. This is telling us that the work on the cross was complete - nothing that we do can add to it, nor is there anything that we need to do in addition to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

Now to the passage in question:

Heb 10:26-30
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

One of the problems in reading scripture in English is to miss the context from the original Greek. The "sin" refers to missing the mark, and sins comes in many forms including rejecting the salvation which you received. That is the context - those who have been saved, but who now willfully reject their salvation and turn their back on the sacrifice on the cross. Look at this which helps explain the context:

Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 "For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
NKJV

Paul is speaking of the contrast of those who leave their faith in Christ verses those who retain their confidence in the cross.

sndbay,
The point needinfo08 was trying to make, I believe, is that WILLFULLY continuing to sin is a no no to salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

My post mentioned that I believe Christ has given us the right to repent, not the right to sin. Anyone who follows Christ, and believes in the word, must hold stedfast in effort to live a good life. (righteously = in good standing with God)

The parable of the oil for the lamp, the wise and foolish is a good example. Someone is foolish not to buy into what Christ has to offer, to allow God's glory to shine in them.

Needinfo08 is following his heart of love in doing the Will of God, and I find no reason for him or anyone to frustrate over the law when their heart of love is given to Christ.

Remember the scripture that tells us the first will be last and the last will be first. The word is saying no one is better then another. We all fall short to sin of the flesh, there is no way to eliminate this. But the mind and heart can find forgiveness and remain bright unto the glory of Christ. The Bread of Life

WILLFULLY continuing to sin is a no no to salvation.. And perhaps is a double minded person, who obviously has not enough oil. The foolish need God to trim their flax. God does promise in experiences of life, we reap what we sow.

Judgement is in the hands of Christ..

To the idea of willfully sinning, I just point out that King David willfully sinned in two respects and yet in the end, God still saved him. And what were those sins: adultery and murder. David was called a man after God's own heart. God did say that David was faithful in all his house, except with Bathsheba. God did not overlook the fact that David sinned but in the end, God did not hold that sin against him as it related to eternal life.

The point of confusion I think with needinfo's earlier comments is whether someone who willfully sins can be saved. My feeling is that a willful sin in of itself is not necessarily a disqualifying factor in terms of whether God will be merciful to me. I think a person's willful sin is not necessarily indicative of that person's real spiritual nature. If we say that a person who commits a willful sin is disqualified from eternal life, we are right in the sense that the law condemns every man and woman for sin and therefore we are all condemned. But God's mercy is extended to those who desire it because if God is not merciful to us, we will all be destroyed. Paul says that “to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.” The bottom line is there are two types of people: those who desire to do the will of God (but sometimes fail in this regard) and those who do not desire to do the will of God. Those who persevere in doing good will be given eternal life and those who do not obey the truth, will be condemned.

By needinfo's theology, David should have been condemned. But we know that he was not. Why, though? Because what marks a believer from an unbeliever is not necessarily the absence of sin in our lives, it is when we sin and we are confronted with the reality of what we have done, we repent and we desire God's mercy. What I found to be almost laughable, needinfo08, is that you seem to have a very short-sighted view of what sin really is. You mentioned that you may have sinned and your recollection of past sins seems very foggy. You cited a time where the Spirit led you to fast and you wanted to throw in the towel on day 5, but you pushed through it. My friend, that is just dripping with self-righteousness. It's as if you are saying "God forgive me but I am getting really hungry"…the idea that in your suffering for God you had a hard time with fasting is just so totally devoid of any real sense of how morally unworthy you really are…and how morally unworthy we all are. The fact is, by nature we are sinners and if you truly think that you have transcended your own nature and no longer sin, you are already deceived. The promise of the gospel is that one day we will be changed…we will be made like Jesus Christ in both nature and character. This is why we are called to persevere in doing good…because if we are of the sort that takes this admonition seriously, then we find that as we pursue the will of God, we learn that God has changed our hearts and has chosen us for eternal life.

Jake,

I don't know one person who hasn't willfully sinned after they were saved. I know plenty that don't do it much because they are changing from Glory to glory. But because of this old nature we have... it is going to happen. I agree with you.

Need,

what do you do with the BROTHER in 1corinthians 5 who was living in sin with his step-mother? ( that is really gross fyi). The apostle Paul never said he was not saved any longer. He said to turn him over to satan.. in other words.. if he won't repent.. let satan have at him for the destruction of the flesh so that his SPIRIT may be saved. You know I have been knee deep into sin. I was addicted to prescription pain killers... WILLFULLY. I never lost my salvation but I can tell you... when Satan was through with me.. I was all too willing to crawl back to the Father. During my addiction I still had a personal relationship with Jesus, it was strained but he was there... the WHOLE way.

To the idea of willfully sinning, I just point out that King David willfully sinned in two respects and yet in the end, God still saved him. And what were those sins: adultery and murder. David was called a man after God's own heart. God did say that David was faithful in all his house, except with Bathsheba. God did not overlook the fact that David sinned but in the end, God did not hold that sin against him as it related to eternal life.
.

True, King David did sin, and was foolish in pride. God gave David the chioce of one out of three things ( I Chronicles 21:10 ) for punishment of his foolishness. Those 3 options were written in ( 1 Chronicles 21:12) Pestilence fell on Israel and seventy thousand men died. Before the end of this punishment God took pitty on Jerusalem, and stopped it.

Note that we reap what we sow... But this was a time before Christ brought forgiveness.

The judgement of man's heart is in the hands of Christ today. Whether one believes in Christ, and can (Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2 Cr 6:16-17 )

Christ said repent for sins...

Hebrews 4-5-6 will help anyone to find wisdom for the question of willfully sinning. But another question comes to mind, whether it was actually they fall away from faith and belief in Christ?

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.

Who can judge the heart of man, can one judge Judas?

Acts 1:16-18 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

OK, Sndbay, are you saying that you do not sin willfully either? Is that your theology as well, in other words? Because I take it that you are defending needinfo's position.

With respect to judging, I'm not judging anyone's heart and I'm not certain why you keep making that point. The issue isn't one's heart as you keep insisting, it's really how we understand by what means or how a person can be a child God if he or she sins willfully... that's been the discussion, not whether I can tell whether someone is a believer or not.

ok, Sndbay, are you saying that you do not sin willfully either? Is that your theology as well, in other words? Because I take it that you are defending needinfo's position.
.

My heart and mind in free will is to do My Father's Will on earth as it is in heaven. That by prayer and belief in Christ, and all authority and power given to Him, I can ask anything in His name. Thus to trust upon His guidance to led me from temptation. . . Are my prayers heard and answered... YES

Do you believe in Christ's power and authority. Do you believe Christ can help and protect you?

I do not frustrated the law, I do what is within my heart. The scripture tells us to give thought to what we say and do before hand. I talk with God throughout the day, because He is a reality to my heart and mind. The commandments are written within my heart and mind. I willfully try not to sin...

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

sndbay, I really don't get you, man... you are an odd bird... borderline, bizarre, I think.

Perhaps if I met you and got to know you I would think differently but the way you express your arguments and talk through some of this stuff is just really out there, man. I don't have anything against you, though... you don't seem to be antagonistic or mean spirited but you are definitely strange... but I love you, bro.

sndbay, I really don't get you, man...you are an odd bird...borderline, bizarre, I think.

Perhaps if I met you and got to know you I would think differently but the way you express your arguments and talk through some of this stuff is just really out there, man. I don't have anything against you, though...you don't seem to be antagonistic or mean spirited but you are definitely strange...but I love you, bro.

Jakester,

I have been saying this too. I don't get snd. Too weird. This may sound mean but it is like snb is floating on some spirtual cloud that makes NO SENSE. I have asked time and time again that snd respond without all the spiritual stuff because I don't understand it. For me the replies seems like snd thinks she or he is more spirtual. In reality, it is like you say" BIZARRE". I don't mean to be unkind either but... I calls them like I sees them.

(I was actually starting to think I wasn't smart enough to keep up... ME! LOL whew glad I'm not the only one that has a problem) :)

Yeah, I suspected that others felt the same way... I think I've read a few other threads where snd was going on one of his rants about something and another member was like "woah, earth to sndbay!"

Sometimes he says things that seem to have no connection at all to what is being said in the thread and that's frustrating because it's good to hear other people's arguments but if it's another "language", it's really hard to understand.

Well, sndbay, I guess the verdict is in...

Yeah, I suspected that others felt the same way...I think I've read a few other threads where snd was going on one of his rants about something and another member was like "woah, earth to sndbay!"

Sometimes he says things that seem to have no connection at all to what is being said in the thread and that's frustrating because it's good to hear other people's arguments but if it's another "language", it's really hard to understand.

Well, sndbay, I guess the verdict is in...

I agree. When I do understand what he is saying, I find that I, more often than not, find some agreement with him - but too often it is just not clear what he is trying to say.

I think that it must be a matter of style. I wish that I did understand him better because, based upon what I have understood, I think that he has some ideas that would be interesting to discuss further.

Perhaps I should have said more accurately...
Willfully sinning continually without true repentance is a NO NO to salvation!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I agree. When I do understand what he is saying, I find that I, more often than not, find some agreement with him - but too often it is just not clear what he is trying to say.

I think that it must be a matter of style. I wish that I did understand him better because, based upon what I have understood, I think that he has some ideas that would be interesting to discuss further.

Yeah, TJ, you are right... we don't want to throw sndbay under the bus. I agree with you; there have been some occasions where he has said some really profound stuff. Thanks for your thoughts.

jakester,
I'm one who does not want to through anyone under the bus.
I hope all can be saved.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I agree. When I do understand what he is saying, I find that I, more often than not, find some agreement with him - but too often it is just not clear what he is trying to say.

I think that it must be a matter of style. I wish that I did understand him better because, based upon what I have understood, I think that he has some ideas that would be interesting to discuss further.

Tj3,

Hmmm? Well that is because you haven't had any serious conversation with SND. Reading your posts and your homepage I got to say... I don't think you agree with SND much at all. SND has some ideas that I think are cleary wrong and snd put himself under the law. The only thing so far that I have agreed with him about is that Jesus is GOD and he came to redeem us. Everything else we disagee about. I'm not even sure SND would own me as saved because I do not believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation. ( however, I was baptized it just HAD NOTHING to do with me getting to heaven) Anyway, there are plenty of Christians who mix law with grace. Personally I find it harder to converse with THEM than I do an atheist. I'm sure the feeling is mutual though.

Sorry snd. I am not bashing you... I told you we'd meet one day in agreement at the marriage supper of the lamb! :)

Sorry I am clearly off topic... :(

Tj3,
hmmm? well that is because you haven't had any serious conversation with SND. Reading your posts and your homepage i gotta say.....i don't think you agree with SND much at all. SND has some ideas that I think are cleary wrong and snd put himself under the law. The only thing so far that I have agreed with him about is that Jesus is GOD and he came to redeem us. Everything else we disagee about. I'm not even sure SND would own me as saved because I do not believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation. ( however, I was baptized it just HAD NOTHING to do with me getting to heaven) Anyway, there are plenty of Christians who mix law with grace. personally i find it harder to converse with THEM than i do an atheist. I'm sure the feeling is mutual though.

I have had a few rounds with, and yes some where we clearly were on opposite sides. Many other cases, It was simply impossible to discuss because he was so unclear about what he was saying, but some things that he said might have created some good discussions (not necessarily always agreement) if we could have discussed.

But you may be right - maybe I have not discussed thing enough with him to more fully understand his overall theology.

There is reason for the way I speak that is different from what some find normal. It is in th meaning of a greek word called itityam. I am not sure I spelled that correctly. The meaning for this greek way of speaking, is to state a wise saying within the structure or quote of a statement being communicated. This is somewhat near the idea of symbolism in the revelation of suggesting truth by an artictic intervention.. The depth of communication is as a poet, which sometimes is difficult for others to understand.

The bible does example this form of commincation, and I can feel blessed by God because it allows me to understand the parables, and language used.These are spoken in reverse direction at times.
I do not try to speak this way, but find it is a natural way for discussion in scriptures. If I can offer an example, it would be as a parable in saying [a cloud of birds]. When used in this form of speech, the meaning is a large group of birds.

In the posted message #109 I can be quoted in saying, My heart and mind in free will is to do My Father's Will on earth as it is in heaven. (the meaning is that my choice in life is to do the Lord's Will refer to the prayer we were taught in scripture.)

I went on to say quote: That by prayer and belief in Christ, and all authority and power given to Him, I can ask anything in His name.( the meaning refer again scripture Mark 16:17; John 14:13-14; John 15:16 ect..)

Quoted: Thus to trust upon His guidance to led me from temptation. . . Are my prayers heard and answered... YES ( meaning in the prayer we were taught to pray, and scripture Jeremiah 33:3, Isaish 26:4)

I believe in all that I wrote, and all that I quoted is truth. If we say I failed, then we do not truly believe.

I will not ask that you all forgive my way of communicating because it is a gift from God. But I will feel it is best that what I treasure must not be wasted...So in refer to scripture never cast your pearls to the swine.

There is reason for the way I speak that is different from what some find normal. It is in th meaning of a greek word called itityam. I am not sure I spelled that correctly. The meaning for this greek way of speaking, is to state a wise saying within the structure or quote of a statement being communicated. This is somewhat near the idea of symbolism in the revelation of suggesting truth by an artictic intervention.. The depth of communication is as a poet, which sometimes is difficult for others to understand.

The bible does example this form of commincation, and I can feel blessed by God because it allows me to understand the parables, and language used.These are spoken in reverse direction at times.
I do not try to speak this way, but find it is a natural way for discussion in scriptures. If I can offer an example, it would be as a parable in saying [a cloud of birds]. When used in this form of speech, the meaning is a large group of birds.

In the posted message #109 I can be quoted in saying, My heart and mind in free will is to do My Father's Will on earth as it is in heaven. (the meaning is that my choice in life is to do the Lord's Will refer to the prayer we were taught in scripture.)

I went on to say quote: That by prayer and belief in Christ, and all authority and power given to Him, I can ask anything in His name.( the meaning refer again scripture Mark 16:17; John 14:13-14; John 15:16 ect..)

Quoted: Thus to trust upon His guidance to led me from temptation. . . Are my prayers heard and answered... YES ( meaning in the prayer we were taught to pray, and scripture Jeremiah 33:3, Isaish 26:4)

I believe in all that I wrote, and all that I quoted is truth. If we say I failed, then we do not truly believe.

I will not ask that you all forgive my way of communicating because it is a gift from God. But I will feel it is best that what I treasure must not be wasted...So in refer to scripture never cast your pearls to the swine.

OH NO YOU DIDN't... you didn't just call your fellow brothers and sisters SWINE!
When I would read you posts and your responses to me... there was an air of arrogance in them. But I told myself that I just didn't understand you. Well, there is no longer an AIR... it is arrogant. We as brothers and sisters in Christ are telling YOU that you are not conveying your message. What good does it do for you to come in here and type something in Japanese? WE don't UNDERSTAND THAT. I know you think you are "wise" and have been given this great gift but I got to tell you... you aren't reaching many with it. Most people are left scratching their head.

I know you believe in all you wrote. Good for you but IF I say you failed in the truth and doctrine department... I am talking about YOU failing not my Lord and Savior. I get the impression that you think your little parables or itityam or whatever is right up there with the WORD OF GOD. How can I put this poetically so that you might understand?. IT AIN'T EVEN CLOSE.

You are casting STUFF all right.. I wouldn't call it pearls though.


I re -read this and what I said seemed harsh. I got ticked... real ticked at the swine thing. Jesus said that and he was talking about giving REAL truths to unbelievers that just made fun of it. We are believers SND. I resented it being used as if we are somehow beneath you.

sndbay,
You were doing just fine before you tossed in the swine thing.
That was uncalled for.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The bible does example this form of commincation, and I can feel blessed by God because it allows me to understand the parables, and language used.

The parables are explained. When you claim that you have special knowledge to understand the parables, it sounds like you are claiming to be an adherent of gnosticism which has been soundly condemned as being outside of orthodoxy.


These are spoken in reverse direction at times.
I do not try to speak this way, but find it is a natural way for discussion in scriptures.

Jesus and the Apostles reasoned with people in the vernacular of the time.

I will not ask that you all forgive my way of communicating because it is a gift from God. But I will feel it is best that what I treasure must not be wasted...So in refer to scripture never cast your pearls to the swine.

God is not the author of confusion.

The parables are explained. When you claim that you have special knowledge to understand the parables, it sounds like you are claiming to be an adherent of gnosticism which has been soundly condemned as being outside of orthodoxy.

Jesus and the Apostles reasoned with people in the vernacular of the time.
God is not the author of confusion.

In the posted message #109 I can be quoted in saying, My heart and mind in free will is to do My Father's Will on earth as it is in heaven. (the meaning is that my choice in life is to do the Lord's Will refer to the prayer we were taught in scripture.)

I went on to say quote: That by prayer and belief in Christ, and all authority and power given to Him, I can ask anything in His name.( the meaning refer again scripture Mark 16:17; John 14:13-14; John 15:16 etc.. )

Quoted: Thus to trust upon His guidance to led me from temptation. . . Are my prayers heard and answered... YES ( meaning in the prayer we were taught to pray, and scripture Jeremiah 33:3, Isaish 26:4)

The question I asked? Do you believe in Christ's power and authority. Do you believe Christ can help and protect you?

The reply that was given... those replies are posted in ridicule of what I posted .. Is to ridicule someone the Christian way? Would one think it's okay to reply in this matter to the question that I asked?

Posting #112 the verdict... Should I take offense by this judgement?


My attempt to example myself after further reading the posting, was not done in arrogance. I have never claimed to be more then a humble servant. I have posted many times that none of us are special. Posted #104..states that..

The deception by false witness of my belief is exactly that, False...

I will not participate further in these decisions, the idea that I caused confusion in love for Christ has never been my intention. And I find the idea a further ridicule by the jury.

This experience is by far heart breaking.

Sndbay was once a student at the school of Rationality but midway through the first semester he decided to drop out and pursue his dream of becoming a space cadet…it pays to dream big!

Snd,

I am very sorry you felt heart break.. and I mean that.

Sndbay was once a student at the school of Rationality but midway through the first semester he decided to drop out and pursue his dream of becoming a space cadet…it pays to dream big!

I really do feel bad if I hurt SND... I didn't mean to. But I pity the fool that calls me a swine... LOL LOL LOL sorry Jakester I have been waiting and waiting to use that line on you with your Mr. T pic. Corny... I know.:D

I will not participate further in these decisions, the idea that I caused confusion in love for Christ has never been my intention. And I find the idea a further ridicule by the jury.

This experience is by far heart breaking.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove by most of what you posted, but you told us that you have special knowledge that the rest of us do not have (God said that he is no respector of persons), and then made a passing comparison to us and swine.

I and others did not put you down - quite the contrary - we were expressing regret that we were not better able to understand what you were trying to say.

sndbay,
I'm disappointed that you will not continue.
I find your post to be interesting.
I also believe that God can inspire anyone he chooses to and often does.
I pray for inspiration and often get it.
So don't let others discourage you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

My friend and Brother/Sister in Christ Jesus: If you or I or anyone mortal was able to live without sin, then Jesus died on vain because He only climbed on the cross because He thought we were incapable of achieving Communion with our Father without His sacrifice. Praise His Wisdom in coming to pay off the bills you and I couldn't.

My friend and Brother/Sister in Christ Jesus: If you or I or anyone mortal was able to live without sin, then Jesus died on vain because He only climbed on the cross because He thought we were incapable of achieving Communion with our Father without His sacrifice. Praise His Wisdom in coming to pay off the bills you and I couldn't.

Scripture agrees:

Rom 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
NKJV

Gal 3:21
For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
NKJV

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

I am not sure what you are trying to prove by most of what you posted, but you told us that you have special knowledge that the rest of us do not have (God said that he is no respector of persons), and then made a passing comparison to us and swine.

I and others did not put you down - quite the contrary - we were expressing regret that we were not better able to understand what you were trying to say.

Tj3 need I refer scripture that speak of God's blessing. And should I explain that God created each of us just the way we are. Each different, and brought forth to service on earth whether doctor, farmer, or poet.Some highly skilled yet all loved by God equally.

Refer:Posting # 119 Sndbay Quoted to say: The depth of communication is as a poet, which sometimes is difficult for others to understand.
The bible does example this form of commincation, and I can feel blessed by God because it allows me to understand the parables, and language used.

Tj3, who is the author of confusion? Scripture tells us it is satan.. I have viewed discussion that you have had with others concerning the language, with itityam, or symbolism used. Have you found confusion in the noted speech to eat of this bread and drink of this blood ? Did God cause the confusion? NO! The author of confusion is satan... He works with eagerness to tempt us. God reveals truth, and will help us when we call upon Him.

Posting #119 Sndbay quoted as saying: I believe in all that I wrote, and all that I quoted is truth. If we say I failed, then we do not truly believe.

This statement was in refer to what I have posted 3 different time as evident to my belief. God tells us to come forth 3 times... So if {we}, that includes myself, say I fail at avoiding intentional or willfull sin, then {we} do not believe in Christ's power and authority over our enemies. (This was the subject)

Posting #119 Sndbay quoted saying: I will not ask that you all forgive my way of communicating because it is a gift from God. But I will feel it is best that what I treasure must not be wasted...So in refer to scripture never cast your pearls to the swine.

The swine is indeed the person who does not believe in the Lord's prayer, in the scripture that tell us of Chirst power and authority., Rather it is bare false witness against me to say I called anyone a swine. For I did NOT! Rather a choice to wear the shoes that fits for all of us..

Mark 16:17; John 14:13-14; John 15:16 , Jeremiah 33:3, Isaish 26:4

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Willfully not.. but we are all sinners..

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Posting #101 sndbay quoted saying: Please be aware that the flesh body of all generations do sin, and as noted before the price was paid for all sin by Christ. However God gaves us the lamp of the law to give light to our paths. Christ walked in the light, and we should walk in His Light.

Christ gave the right to repent, not the right to sin...

I leave you and the forum with nothing further to explain.

C-O-P ,
I agree with you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3 need I refer scripture that speak of God's blessing. And should I explain that God created each of us just the way we are. Each different, and brought forth to service on earth whether doctor, farmer, or poet.Some highly skilled yet all loved by God equally.

But just because God blesses some people, and God gives gifts, does not mean that everyone who has an unique characteristic has that as a gift from God. Especially if that "gift" is a gift of obscure ways of communication.


Refer:Posting # 119 Sndbay Quoted to say: The depth of communication is as a poet, which sometimes is difficult for others to understand.
The bible does example this form of commincation, and I can feel blessed by God because it allows me to understand the parables, and language used.

Nowhere does scripture say that only specially blessed people will understand parables, nor does it even suggest that those who understand parables will talk in obscure ways. When Jesus spoke, what he was saying could be understood. He did not just speak to the "gnostics".

Luke 8:9-10
9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, "What does this parable mean?" 10 And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that
'Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.'
NKJV

His disciples are His followers, not gnostics.


Tj3, who is the author of confusion? Scripture tells us it is satan.. I have viewed discussion that you have had with others concerning the language, with itityam, or symbolism used. Have you found confusion in the noted speech to eat of this bread and drink of this blood ? Did God cause the confusion? NO! The author of confusion is satan... He works with eagerness to tempt us. God reveals truth, and will help us when we call upon Him.

Have you noted that you way of communicating is confusing to virtually all?


Posting #119 Sndbay quoted as saying: I believe in all that I wrote, and all that I quoted is truth.

The only person who can legitimately claim that is God. he is the ONLY one who can say that all that he has written or spoken is truth. What are you trying to say?


If we say I failed, then we do not truly believe

I believe in God, not you or what you write. The same goes for anyone else, including myself. No one should be placing their faith in my words, bnut rather I point them to the word of God.


This statement was in refer to what I have posted 3 different time as evident to my belief. God tells us to come forth 3 times...

Where is this in scripture? Where are we told to come forth 3 times? Coming to Christ once is enough for salvation.


So if {we}, that includes myself, say I fail at avoiding intentional or willfull sin, then {we} do not believe in Christ's power and authority over our enemies. (This was the subject)

The reference in scripture to willfully sinning, as I pointed out earlier is not speaking of sin in general, but the context is specifically the sin of rejecting the salvation that you once received, and turning away from Christ as Saviour willfully.


The swine is indeed the person who does not believe in the Lord's prayer, in the scripture that tell us of Chirst power and authority., Rather it is bare false witness against me to say I called anyone a swine. For I did NOT! Rather a choice to wear the shoes that fits for all of us..

Again, your posts are not the Lord's prayer.

I would say that some of your claims are ones that no man should dare make.

But just because God blesses some people, and God gives gifts, does not mean that everyone who has an unique characteristic has that as a gift from God. Especially if that "gift" is a gift of obscure ways of communication.

Posted #119 The depth of communication is as a poet, which sometimes is difficult for others to understand.

And further more, I stated I would not participate further within the forum because your judgement in my way of speech.. For my intention is never to cause any confusion..




I believe in God, not you or what you write. the same goes for anyone else, including myself. No one should be placing their faith in my words, bnut rather I point them to the word of God.

There you go with your false witness in judgement of my faith in Christ, and making it appear that I follow my words and not scripture. Everything I have said refer a scripture. It is The Word/Christ I believe in...



Where is this in scripture? Where are we told to come forth 3 times? Coming to Christ once is enough for salvation.

Establish something as being evident..( Matthew 18:15-17)

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

This is the evident posting which I have tried to explain of what is being ridicule and judged by Tj3. You insist it is as my/satan's confusion.
In the posted message #109 I can be quoted in saying, My heart and mind in free will is to do My Father's Will on earth as it is in heaven. (the meaning is that my choice in life is to do the Lord's Will refer to the prayer we were taught in scripture.)

I went on to say quote: That by prayer and belief in Christ, and all authority and power given to Him, I can ask anything in His name.( the meaning refer again scripture Mark 16:17; John 14:13-14; John 15:16 ect..)

Quoted: Thus to trust upon His guidance to led me from temptation. . . Are my prayers heard and answered... YES ( meaning in the prayer we were taught to pray, and scripture Jeremiah 33:3, Isaish 26:4)

The question is do you believe ? Do you believe in Christ's power and authority. Do you believe Christ can help and protect you?
And I will add, do you believe throught Christ that we Willfully not within the mind sin.. but we are all sinners with the flesh..???
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Tj3 answer those questions..





The reference in scripture to willfully sinning, as I pointed out earlier is not speaking of sin in general, but the context is specifically the sin of rejecting the salvation that you once received, and turning away from Christ as Saviour willfully.

I referscripture that shows this as a falling away. Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.





I would say that some of your claims are ones that no man should dare make.

And obviously that is a discerning between your choice in faith and my faith. But your discerning does include falsely claiming what you have interpreted of my communication verses the refer of scripture.

My heart and mind in free will is to do My Father's Will on earth as it is in heaven. That by prayer and belief in Christ, and all authority and power given to Him, I can ask anything in His name. Thus to trust upon His guidance to led me from temptation. . . Are my prayers heard and answered... YES

Again, your posts are not the Lord's prayer.

I would say that some of your claims are ones that no man should dare make.

TJ3,

Exactly, This is why I see so much arrogance in his posts. He puts his words and his thoughts right up there with God. DRIVES ME NUTS!

Enough IS enough.
Here is the Lord's prayer...
NOTE that when we pray this were pray for ourselves and others by saying US.
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your Kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
AS WE FORGIVE those who sin against us.
Lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours.
Now and for ever. Amen
Let us all FOLLOW it as we live it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Posted #119 The depth of communication is as a poet, which sometimes is difficult for others to understand.

Repeating it does not make it any more true. Colourful description maybe, but it is certainly not a Biblical description of how we are to communicate the gospel.


There you go with your false witness in judgement of my faith in Christ, and making it appear that I follow my words and not scripture.

You said in your last message, and I quote:

"If we say I failed, then we do not truly believe."

Sorry to disappoint you, but saying that you failed does not make anyone a nonbeliever. Scripture says that we have all failed, and as I said, I believe in God not in your. I believe in God's faithfulness not yours.

I stand by my comments.


[quote]
Where is this in scripture? Where are we told to come forth 3 times? Coming to Christ once is enough for salvation.
Establish something as being evident.. ( Matthew 18:15-17)

Let's look at this passage:

Matt 18:15-16
15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.'
NKJV

It does not say that we are to come forth 3 times. This is referring to a matter of discipline where we are to bring 2 or 3 witnesses.



This is the evident posting which I have tried to explain of what is being ridicule and judged by Tj3. You insist it is as my/satan's confusion. [/B]

I am ridiculing nothing. Indeed a few posts ago, I was defending you. But I cannot defend a position that claims infallibility, and claims that confusing ways of speaking is a gift from God.


Thus to trust upon His guidance to led me from temptation.. . Are my prayers heard and answered... YES ( meaning in the prayer we were taught to pray, and scripture Jeremiah 33:3, Isaish 26:4)

Prayers may be answered, but the answer is not always "yes".


The question is do you believe ? Do you believe in Christ's power and authority. Do you believe Christ can help and protect you?

Yes, but do I believe the word of God when it says that we have been given freewill and that we all fail to obey perfectly, yes, I believe that also. Do you?


And I will add, do you believe through Christ that we Willfully not within the mind sin.. but we are all sinners with the flesh..? [/B]
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I referscripture that shows this as a falling away. Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.


We are all sinners in our minds also. None of us, yes not even you have obeyed God perfectly. The verse that is referred to by sinning willfully refers specifically to one sin - and that is willfully rejecting and turning our backs on our salvation that we received in Christ.

I addressed this earlier in this same thread by showing the context of the passage.

sndbay,
Don't let anyone here run you off.
Believe as you want to believe, but note how others believe.
They can believe as they want to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
Don't let anyone here run you off.
Believe as you want to believe, but note how others believe.
They can believe as they want to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes, Fred, anyone and everyone can believe as they wish, but that does not mean that everyone is equally right. Only God's word is always right.

I agree that sndbay should stay - I encourage him to do so, but to come down to earth with the rest of us and let's discuss what we have in common and where we differ and study God's word.

Enough IS enough.
Here is the Lord's prayer.....
NOTE that when we pray this were pray for ourselves and others by saying US.
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your Kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
AS WE FORGIVE those who sin against us.
Lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours.
Now and for ever. Amen
Let us all FOLLOW it as we live it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
Don't let anyone here run you off.
Believe as you want to believe, but note how others believe.
They can believe as they want to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thank you Fred, your heart is honest and pure. However I will not take part, and have my faith in Christ be posted in ridicule because of the way I speak. And also be called arrogant for my love in Christ. Do unto others as you would want done unto you.
Christ tells us to WATCH.. watch for deception. That does not mean in the way words are spoken, but it does mean what the words are saying.

I have shown my husband this ridiculing and his advise was to stay clear of internet bullies that are out to hurt me. My pastor agreed with him.
Peace to you Fred

You said in your last message, and I quote:

"If we say I failed, then we do not truly believe."

If we say I failed in my heart and mind not to avoid willful sin, after which I had asked in Christ name to led me from tempation. Then we do not believe in Christ's power and authority over the ememy. Christ is the armor we are to put on...



Sorry to disappoint you, but saying that you failed does not make anyone a nonbeliever. Scripture says that we have all failed, and as I said, I believe in God not in your. I believe in God's faithfulness not yours.

I stand by my comments. .

I stand by what is written..

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



Establish something as being evident..( Matthew 18:15-17)

Let's look at this passage:

Matt 18:15-16
15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.'
NKJV

It does not say that we are to come forth 3 times. This is referring to a matter of discipline where we are to bring 2 or 3 witnesses.

(3 evident in idenity)
1. go and tell him his fault between you and him
2. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more
3. he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church:

Plus we have evident identity to witness by 1 The Father, 2 The Son, 3 Holy Spirit.



I am ridiculing nothing. Indeed a few posts ago, I was defending you. But I cannot defend a position that claims infallibility, and claims that confusing ways of speaking is a gift from God.

You did indeed defend me, (But this was not unlike a field of sheep that needs to watch for the peditor) You fell to the deception that was spoken,(it was not I that spoke of anyone hurtfully) but you agreed that it was I that was causing harm.

I have always found wisdom remains stedfast.(that wisdom is found in Spiritual Truth). But the flesh of man is weak and needs to avoid giving suck to deception



Prayers may be answered, but the answer is not always "yes".

May be you say?

Hebrews 13:5 [Let your] conversation without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

[B]Psalms 50:15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.



Yes, but do I believe the word of God when it says that we have been given freewill and that we all fail to obey perfectly, yes, I believe that also. Do you?


We are all sinners in our minds also. None of us, yes not even you have obeyed God perfectly. The verse that is referred to by sinning willfully refers specifically to one sin - and that is willfully rejecting and turning our backs on our salvation that we received in Christ.

I addressed this earlier in this same thread by showing the context of the passage.

Again I stand by what is written: Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Prayer: Psalms 5:3; Psalms 6:9; Psalms 17:1; Psalms 39:2 Psalms 42:8; Psalms 69:13; Psalms 86:6; Psalms 88:13; Psalms 143:1

1 Kings 8:39-40 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, [even] thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;) That they may fear thee all the days that they live in the land which thou gavest unto our fathers.

2 Ch 6:19-20 Have respect therefore to the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and the prayer which thy servant prayeth before thee: That thine eyes may be open upon this house day and night, upon the place whereof thou hast said that thou wouldest put thy name there; to hearken unto the prayer which thy servant prayeth toward this place.

2 Ch 6:21-23 Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling place, [even] from heaven; and when thou hearest, forgive.If a man sin against his neighbour, and an oath be laid upon him to make him swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this house; Then hear thou from heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, by requiting the wicked, by recompensing his way upon his own head; and by justifying the righteous, by giving him according to his righteousness. 2 Ch 6:24 Then hear thou from heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, by requiting the wicked, by recompensing his way upon his own head; and by justifying the righteous, by giving him according to his righteousness. Then hear thou from the heavens, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest to them and to their fathers.



Good Bye

If we say I failed in my heart and mind not to avoid willful sin, after which I had asked in Christ name to led me from tempation. Then we do not believe in Christ's power and authority over the ememy. Christ is the armor we are to put on...

Why do you blame the failure of sinful man on a Holy God? As I pointed out to you before, but it appears that you skimmed over it, paul himself speaks about his imperfect obedience. Is that God's fault?

Why would scripture says to restore one who has fallen into sin?

Gal 6:1-3
6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
NKJV

And a warning to you or others who believe that you do not sin after being saved - read the next verse:

Gal 6:3-4
3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
NKJV

This is in the context of those who think themselves better than those brothers in Christ who have sinned.

As for wilfuill sin after being saved, you seem to have willfully twice ignored the context of the very verse that you use validate this claim. That who section of scripture is not speaking of sin in general, but it is speaking of salvation. It is speaking of those who wilfilly reject their salvation in Christ. I won't go back through the whole thing again, but look at Paul's summary line:

Heb 10:39
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
NKJV

You are taking the verse out of context.


I stand by what is written..

I already refuted your use of the first passage that you use, now let's look at the second:


Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Now first of all - is sin of the flesh any worse than sin of the mind? Both are sin and both are worthy of sending us to hell. Scripture nowhere says that one is okay and the other isn't, so your claim to separate these is wrong.

Further, Jesus said that His sacrifice on the cross paid the price for ALL sin. Not just sins of the mind or sins of the flesh:

1 John 1:8-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

Lastly, scripture says that if you fail to keep one part of the law (in your flesh or in your mind - doesn't make a difference), then you have failed to keep it all:

James 2:9-10
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
NKJV

So if you place yourself under the law, you will be judged by the law.


(3 evident in idenity)
1. go and tell him his fault between you and him
2. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more
3. he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church:

Exactly - it does not says that we have to come to Christ three times. This is a matter of discipline. This is not the same thing at all.


You did indeed defend me, (But this was not unlike a field of sheep that needs to watch for the peditor) You fell to the deception that was spoken,(it was not I that spoke of anyone hurtfully) but you agreed that it was I that was causing harm.

I never said that you were causing harm - quite the contrary - I said that I wish that I could understand you better so that we could have some good discussions over your ideas. Read again.


May be you say? [/B]

Getting a bit on the picky side aren't we?

That was not suggesting that pryaers are not answered, but often people only mean that they are answered if we get what we want. The point is that prayers may be answered as you want, but God may also, and very often does, say no, or wait.

If you respond again, it may take me a couple of days to respond. Check my bottom link below to see why.

sndbay
I believe that Jesus said the what goes in a persons mouth is not dirty but what comes out sometimes is.
I think that applies also to written words.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Jesus taught:

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are [persecuted] for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and [persecute you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Good-Bye Fred, Enjoy the Holiday ahead..

sndbay,
Thanks... and...
O hope and pray that you have a wonderful, thankful Thanksgiving
And a very merry joyful Christmas.
Fred

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Note that scripture tell us how that perfection comes about:

Rom 4:22-25
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV

It is therefore HIS righteousness, not ours. Also note:

1 John 1:9-10
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I grew up in a very god fearing home and have devoted all my live to christ but I am also a very open minded person!


Here's the thing!
God forgives when you sincerely ask for forgiveness!
And there is 2 things he won't forgive ignorance and blaspheme!

If you do something over and over while at the same time hoping that god will forgive you in the end I think that's just being selfish!



And if you think or know that TV is what's cousing you to sin!
Then get rid of it!

Because knowing this and still continue to do it, I think its just cheating yourself in the end!

And you know what its not all about praying, its about being smart and living your life in the way that god would want you to live it


Hope that helps
I've been in the same situation

Jay Dolce
Thanks for sharing your beliefs with us.
I tend to agree with much of what you say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Note that scripture tell us how that perfection comes about:

Rom 4:22-25
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV

It is therefore HIS righteousness, not ours. Also note:

1 John 1:9-10
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

Hebrew 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

And as written the principles of the doctrine of Christ:

Hebrew 6:2-3 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do, if God permit.

Why? because as it is written

Hebrew 6: 4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, [and] have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [And] have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [Him] to an open shame.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrew 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

How do we die?

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? <----Question?

Therefore: as it is written

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Yield to righteousness = (the act of good standing in God)

Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Again why?

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthains 15:48-49 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthinas 15 :50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Christ died for us once, we can not expect Him to do it again, and again. We are baptized into a newlife, believing in Christ, walking in Christ. We are sown to Christ, and told to be a servant as He was a servant in righteosuness. It is our mind and heart, our soul that shall bear of the heavenly image, and we are judged not by the flesh of our sin for Christ paid the price, but by the heart of our righeousness. Because it is the heart, mind and soul that must put on the incorruption by death in Christ with baptism. The string of death is sin; the strength of sin is law. For we know we labor not in vain when we labor in Christ our Lord. Free Will to leave all and follow Christ.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
__________________________________________________ _

3 evident identity are used throughout scripture for all that is said in Spiritual Truth and for what is said of the heart of truth.

Do you love Me, Peter? Yes Lord! 3 times in evident identity to loving Christ.

My heart of ( baring witness) is to what I speak as being true of my love for God, is given in love of Spiritual Truth. The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost

Yes I love you, Father
Yes I love you, Christ
Yes I love you, Holy Ghost

Remain sown to "One" and walk in newlife.

Thank you Lord for all that You have given us in love and mercy. Grant us Your guidance and led us away from sin. Give charge over Your holy angels to protect us from our enemies. Giving all praise,honor and glory unto You forever and ever. I ask this in the glory of Jesus name. Amen

Happy Holidays to all.. Good-Bye to all.. (3 evident identities in Good -bye)

sndbay ,
You are good at arguing your point.
Fred

Hebrew 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

And so on and so forth.

Again, what is you point with all these verses?


3 evident identity are used throughout scripture for all that is said in Spiritual Truth and for what is said of the heart of truth.

Don't play games with words. You said that we had to come to Jesus 3 times - where does scripture says that?

Don't play games with words. You said that we had to come to Jesus 3 times - where does scripture says that?

Posted 134 sndbay establish evident identity

Posted 141 Showing the evident identity as steps 1 2 3

It is you Tj3, shown in your post of 142 that elected to say something I did not say. and now you wish for me to explain your words?

I have told how scripture shows us that with a matter of 3 evident indentities, God's intervention then come to pass. From the beginning shown in 3 days God gives each day the evident identity to what came to pass with God's plan and intervention. And again in the next 3 days creation of life came through God's intervention yet each day holding it's own evident identity to what was done. Not one can be excluded but will always hold it's evident identity.

In respect to what is written we follow the instructions of evident identity in establishing right from wrong. My efforts were to allow you to see what the text of my message was saying.

And so on and so forth.

Again, what is you point with all these verses?


Tj3 I hope you can recognize this web site and it's message.

Is It Right To Judge Others? (http://www.forgottenword.org/isitright.html)

By Pastor E. L. Bynum
Tabernacle Baptist Church, Lubbock, Texas.
“Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24). Here out Lord commands that we are to “judge righteous judgment,” which is judgment based upon the Word of God. If judgment is made upon any other basis, other than the Word of God, it is a violation of Matt.7:1. Webster's Dictionary says that a judge is “one who declares the law.” The faithful Christian must discern or judge on the basis of God's inspired law, the Bible.
A fornicator is described in 1 Cor.5: 1-13. 'Paul “judged” (v.3) the man even though he was absent, and he told the church at Corinth that they were to “judge” (v.12) those that were within. The Greek word for “judge” is the same here as in Matt.7: 1. Paul did not violate “judge not, that ye be not judged,” in judging the man, nor in instructing the Church to judge also. All of this judgment was according to the Word of God.
__________________________________________________ ________
Note this is written by Tom Smith, and shown on his web site.

http://www.geocities.com/smithtj.geo/judge.html
by Tom Smith
Matt 7:1-6
7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye. 6 Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
NKJV
Note that the verse goes on after the first verse to tell us how we should judge and the clear message is that we should judge fairly. Matt 7:1 has to be interpreted both in light of the context of the surrounding text as well as the whole of scripture. If indeed God tells us to judge, and gives us the gift of discernment (judging), and then tells us to be careful to judge fairly, then the message is to judge, but judge properly. Jesus further shows this to be consistent with his message in John 7:24, where he says:
John 7:24
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
NKJV
__________________________________________________ ______


So Tom how is it that you can judge the appearance of the way I speak and write? Rather then judgement of what was contained in what I said or wrote? Every word I said fell to ridicule, and was scrutinized by your discernment. Then you called me picky for questioning your own words written on prayer. And I can be found giving you the right to interpret when by questioning it only, rather then doing as you have done to me. NOT once have you apologized for your actions. Because you obviously don't see the hypocrisy of your actions, and comparison to your teaching as shown in your work on the web

Proverb 11:9 An hypocrite with [his] mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.

Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

God is very patience and loving, His promise is of Spiritual Truth in all that is wirtten.

Matthew 7:7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

The principles of the doctrine of Christ includes all that is written. And you have shown that your path is that of pride. Not of belief in baptism gaining new life with the Spirit. Not understanding that there are 2 bodies even as Christ told us in ( I Corinthians 12:3 ) Christ spoke by the Spirit of His Father, and you can not call Jesus accursed. = (can not say Jesus is not one with the Spirit) No man can say that Jesus is the Lord except to say by the Holy Spirit. God worketh all in all = God's energy,God's intervention worketh all. This Spirit is given unto all through baptism, and faith in Christ ( 2:7 ) according to God's Will ( 12:11 ) By one Spirit we are baptized into one body ( 12:13 )

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


God's energy, intervention by the Spirit.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
__________________________________________________ ____

2 Thesslonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2 Thesslonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God kniows your heart and your shortcomings.
He knows if you are playing games or if you really are having problems you are having a hard time overcoming.
Read your Bible more. Especially Romans, Galatians, Hebrews and James. Try and find a really good Bible study that relates to living in today's times.
We are to work on giving our problems and sins over to Jesus to help us overcome. Like I said hand in there because God kniows your heart and the Holy Spirit will bring you through in time.

Posted 134 sndbay establish evident identity

Posted 141 Showing the evident identity as steps 1 2 3

It is you Tj3, shown in your post of 142 that elected to say something I did not say. And now you wish for me to explain your words?


First, I did not author post #142. So are you holding me acciountable for what someone else said?

Sndbay, you said that we had to come three times. Here is the quote from post #130:


God tells us to come forth 3 times...

Now if that was not your intent, perhaps this is because of the way that you communicate. As we said, it is often difficult to figure out what exactly you are trying to say.


I have told how scripture shows us that with a matter of 3 evident indentities, God's intervention then come to pass. From the beginning shown in 3 days God gives each day the evident identity to what came to pass with God's plan and intervention. And again in the next 3 days creation of life came through God's intervention yet each day holding it's own evident identity to what was done. Not one can be excluded but will always hold it's evident identity.

So, as I have asked before - what is your point?
What are you trying to say? What has this to do with the discussion?
What do you mean by your term "evident identity"?
What does it have to do with you claim that God told us to come forth three times?
Where in scripture did God tell us to come forth three time?
What does this claim about God telling us to come forth three times have to do with the discussion?

Sndbay, I am trying to understand you, but you need to help out here.

Tj3 I hope you can recognize this web site and it's message.[/B]

Is It Right To Judge Others? (http://www.forgottenword.org/isitright.html)

[clipped for brevity]

Note that the verse goes on after the first verse to tell us how we should judge and the clear message is that we should judge fairly. Matt 7:1 has to be interpreted both in light of the context of the surrounding text as well as the whole of scripture. If indeed God tells us to judge, and gives us the gift of discernment (judging), and then tells us to be careful to judge fairly, then the message is to judge, but judge properly. Jesus further shows this to be consistent with his message in John 7:24, where he says:
John 7:24
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
NKJV



Yep - I am in full agreement.


So Tom how is it that you can judge the appearance of the way I speak and write? Rather then judgement of what was contained in what I said or wrote?

First, sndbay, what scripture is referring to and what the article is referring to is right judgment of a person. That is not the issue here.

Second, I am not judging how you speak, but rather, if you remember, I indiacted regret that we were not unable to better understand you because I would like to be able to discuss some of your ideas. So my comments were not judging you, nor the appearance of how you talk, but it was rather regretting that it was not easier to communicate with you.

It is in fact you who turned around and judged anyone who even dared to comment on the difficulty in understanding the way that you choose to communicate. Basically your message is that we are all wrong for being unable to understand you, when you choose tio communicate in a fashion which is not easily understood. Then you call us hypocrites, and accuse us of all sorts of things, and yet I for one, and there others who want to discuss with you.

In past discussions, I have asked you numerous times what you p[oint was when it was not clear what eactly you were trying to say. You did not answer.

I have been trying to get you to clarify what exactly you mean by saying that we must come three time, which then turned into something that you choose to call a evidence identity, and despite efforts to get your to clarify in clear terms, you don't, and rather turn around and make accustaions.

Who then is judging who?

If English is not your first language, I can understand, but it appears to men that you generally have a good grasp of grammatical structure, so I tend to think that is not the issue. You also seemed to suggest that it was a choice by saying that the way that you communicate was a gift from God. If you choose to talk in an obscure manner, then don't judge those who do their darndest to try to understand you.

I will stand by my earlier statement that I made when I defended you. I, for one, would like to be able to have straightforward discussions with you so that I could better understand you, and perhaps some good discussions on where we agree and disagree on doctrine. Your choice.

Enough is enough is the topic here. And I think we have had enouph picky picky on and at sndbay.

So, as I have asked before - what is your point?
What are you trying to say? What has this to do with the discussion?
What do you mean by your term "evident identity"?
What does it have to do with you claim that God told us to come forth three times?
Where in scripture did God tell us to come forth three time?
What does this claim about God telling us to come forth three times have to do with the discussion?

sndbay, I am trying to understand you, but you need to help out here.

1. So, as I have asked before - what is your point? my point was to show evidence of what I meant and wrote. To clear up any issue of confusion that I was accused of doing.

2.What are you trying to say? That there is a deeper meaning in all that is written in scripture. That names, numbers, and all that is witten in scripture holds those deeper meaning, and we should be willing to ask questions and learn what we can. That God willing, does reveal to those who seek.

3. What has this to do with the discussion? Nothing.. Just as Fred has stated... It is off the topic.. Rather it has all fallen to less then what it should have by deception.

4. What do you mean by your term "evident identity"? Look to scripture, and find the answer. Why did Christ go to pray three times? Why three conmmissions finds it's final step in deliverance of Israel? Why 3 suppers before the last supper? Why three days in the resurrection of Christ known as The Third Day? From all these sufficient occurances, we can easily understand that when we read of three, that the third will be the final to come to pass in which we will identify in evidence of divine intervention. All three however are noted as three in the same.

5. What does it have to do with you claim that God told us to come forth three times? In showing right from wrong when we are up against what was intended as faith in love for God. The three steps which scripture has told us to take in the correction of that wrongly done.


6. What does this claim about God telling us to come forth three times have to do with the discussion? The discussion of topic and thread or dicussion of correction to bring forth the heart felt truth of what I said in love for Christ.

For future refer in study... seek the answer.. Ask what three evident identity and intervention, did God take for us to know Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

God reveals as He wills.

1. So, as I have asked before - what is your point?my point was to show evidence of what I meant and wrote. To clear up any issue of confusion that I was accused of doing.

But that is the point that I was making - I am trying to understand what you meant, and I am hoping that you will explain what you are trying to say in plain straightforward English.


2.What are you trying to say? That there is a deeper meaning in all that is written in scripture. That names, numbers, and all that is witten in scripture holds those deeper meaning, and we should be willing to ask questions and learn what we can. That God willing, does reveal to those who seek.

Yes there can in fact be a deeper meaning in scripture, but that is not found through gnostic revelation. Understanding scripture comes by allowing it to interpret itself, with the illumination and guidance of the Holy Spirit.


3. What has this to do with the discussion?Nothing.. Just as Fred has stated... It is off the topic.. Rather it has all fallen to less then what it should have by deception.

They why did you raise the "three times" comment in the first place if you won't explain it?


[B]4. What do you mean by your term "evident identity"?Look to scripture, and find the answer. Why did Christ go to pray three times? Why three conmmissions finds it's final step in deliverance of Israel? Why 3 suppers before the last supper? Why three days in the resurrection of Christ known as The Third Day? From all these sufficient occurrences, we can easily understand that when we read of three, that the third will be the final to come to pass in which we will identify in evidence of divine intervention. All three however are noted as three in the same.

This again does not make logic sense, and you did not explain what I asked, which is what do you mean by the term "evident identity".


[B]5. What does it have to do with you claim that God told us to come forth three times?In showing right from wrong when we are up against what was intended as faith in love for God. The three steps which scripture has told us to take in the correction of that wrongly done.


But scripture does not say to to come forth three times. I have asked for your reference and am still waiting.


[B]6. What does this claim about God telling us to come forth three times have to do with the discussion?The discussion of topic and thread or dicussion of correction to bring forth the heart felt truth of what I said in love for Christ.

That has nothing to do with coming forth three times. And coming forth for what three times? The original context of what we were discussion was salvation. Do you see why we say that what you are saying is hard to understand?


For future refer in study... seek the answer.. Ask what three evident identity and intervention, did God take for us to know [B]Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Again, this has nothing to do with coming forward three times - so what does this verse have to do with the topic? If you would expl;ain clearly, in straightforward English, it would greatly help!

I have to agree that I do not follow the three times thing and it could confuse the OP even more making them feel more insecure that they are missing the boat. I think the OP needs some straight forward replies that do not make them feel more helpless.

sndbay,
The more you continue with TJ3 the longer you will be obliged to.
Tom likes to keep a discussion going till you finally admit he's right (even if he isn't) or get tired of him and quit or ignore him as I do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
The more you continue with TJ3 the longer you will be obliged to.
Tom likes to keep a discussion going till you finally admit he's right (even if he isn't) or get tired of him and quit or ignore him as I do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

As always, Fred, eventually you go after the person rather than discuss the issue.

Is It Right To Judge Others?

[clipped for brevity]

Note that the verse goes on after the first verse to tell us how we should judge and the clear message is that we should judge fairly. Matt 7:1 has to be interpreted both in light of the context of the surrounding text as well as the whole of scripture. If indeed God tells us to judge, and gives us the gift of discernment (judging), and then tells us to be careful to judge fairly, then the message is to judge, but judge properly. Jesus further shows this to be consistent with his message in John 7:24, where he says:
John 7:24
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
NKJV



Yep - I am in full agreement.


You say you agree with this: John 7:24.. Well my point is when I explained my original post that was on the discussion thread (three times).. I also noted I love you Father, I love you Christ, and I love you Holy Spirit... That does bear witness to my faith, and love in The Word/Christ. That should bear evident indentity to the context showing respect to what is written, not ridiculed.

The original posting that was ridiculed:Was it judged fairly? Does the context of what it says show any reason to question my love for Christ? Does it cause confusion?

My heart and mind in free will is to do My Father's Will on earth as it is in heaven. That by prayer and belief in Christ, and all authority and power given to Him, I can ask anything in His name. Thus to trust upon His guidance to lead me from temptation. . . Are my prayers heard and answered... YES

sndbay,
The more you continue with TJ3 the longer you will be obliged to.
Tom likes to keep a discussion going till you finally admit he's right (even if he isn't) or get tired of him and quit or ignore him as I do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Enough is enough as you said Fred.

Question: Did you see the news reported on a possible cure for diabetes. There are 2 cancer drugs showing that Type 1 diabetes was put into remission. I pray, that God in all His mercy, will bring the cure. With today's economy on health care and foods, many need this cure. The link to that report is below..

NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams: News and videos from the evening broadcast- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/#27774926)

Can we answer the OP??

You say you agree with this: John 7:24.. Well my point is when I explained my original post that was on the discussion thread (three times).. I also noted I love you Father, I love you Christ, and I love you Holy Spirit... That does bear witness to my faith, and love in The Word/Christ. That should bear evident indentity to the context showing respect to what is written, not ridiculed.

You make these comments about "three times" that we need to come forth and "evident identity" (whatever that is), and seemly trying to show us where we are wrong, but then you refuse over and over again to explain what you mean by coming forth to God three time and what you mean by the term "evident identity". Until you are willing to be clear on what you are trying to say, you are wasting your time and mine.


The original posting that was ridiculed:Was it judged fairly? Does the context of what it says show any reason to question my love for Christ? Does it cause confusion? [/B]

It is not being ridioculed - we are trying to find out what you are trying to say. You appear to be able to make accusations clearly enough - why not just clearly explain your bpoint! If you won't, why not just drop your "evident identity" and "three times" arguments.

sndbay,
Thanks much for the news item. Very interesting and hopeful.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred

Yes, Hopeful for the future..

Hey needinfo08,

I to for a time struggle with the law until one day I came across... acts chapter 13 38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Hope this help bro. oh and why do you read the torah? Stick with the New and the Old.

Hey needinfo08,

I to for a time struggle with the law until one day I came across... acts chapter 13 38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Hope this help bro. oh and why do you read the torah? Stick with the New and the Old.