To day’s Gospel is rather indoctrinating, in my opinion.

I quote:
“When the Pharisees heard how Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they came together. One of them, a teacher of the Law, tried to test him with this question, «Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the Law?». Jesus answered, «‘You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind’. This is the first and the most important of the commandments. But after this there is another one very similar to it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’. The whole Law and the Prophets are founded on these two commandments. (Mt. 22:34-40)

Unquote:

Practically, all important religions of this world have always preached (with these and other words) the same message. Which implies that man intimately believes in the sameness of human race and in the necessity to love each other to be able to peacefully live together.

But, speaking only of Christianity, where Jesus’ message is so crystal clear, it is rather extraordinary how we can ALL so bluntly tell untruths and lie when we proudly claim how good Christians we are and how we love our Lord while at the same time showing our total indifference towards our fellow citizens in particular and towards Mankind in general.
I’m sure that the responsible parties of the economic crash we are living in right now DO piously attend the Sunday religious services of their church but have not hesitated one second to get carried away by their personal ambition and greed to accumulate more wealth even if it means to ruin and mess up the world’s economy…
That is what I call “loving myself as I hate others…”

Dear gromitt :

As I stated before on this board : the gap between Christian "theory" and US "christian" reality (based on US capitalist thinking) seems to widen every day...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Dear gromitt :

As I stated before on this board : the gap between Christian "theory" and US "christian" reality (based on US capitalist thinking) seems to widen every day .....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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But the most extraordinary thing we should ALL be mulling over, is that, in a major or lesser degree, most of US, Christians, fall into that category of liars. We lie when we pretend to love our neighbor while we are basically interested in our own welfare! Our Christian politiciens llie when they tell us they care for the welfare and prosperity of their citizens while basically they do not give a damn! And our Christian "impresarios" and CEOs of our great multinational DO lie when they pretend to work to improve our world, while what they are improving is their own pockets...
We should ALL be ashamed to use our condition of Christians just as a shield advertising that WE ARE BETTER than those who are not.
This reminds me of the famous parable of Mark 11:15 that says:

"They came to Jerusalem, and on entering the temple area he began to drive out those selling and buying there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves."

Jesus was really furious to see how they were using the Temple for their own selfish purposes. Very much as we do, when we use our religion to hide and shelter our own
Egocentric whims...

This is why TRUE christians remain neutral regarding politics and war. Jesus kept well away from such matters and so do those who are his followers.
John 17:16 - "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."

This is why TRUE christians remain neutral regarding politics and war. Jesus kept well away from such matters and so do those who are his followers.
John 17:16 - "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."

Allow me a little correction in your post. I think it should read:

This is why TRUE christians SHOULD remain neutral regarding politics and war.

FOR ,TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, AND STARTING WITH MYSELF, AND AT LEAST IN MY COUNTRY, WHICH IS SPAIN, EVEN MOST OF THE PRIESTHOOD, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, DO GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS...

SO, ALL THAT I CAN ADD IS "MEA CULPA, MEA CULPA, MEA MAXIMA CULPA..."

No correction needed. To date, there are currently around 7 million of these christians who do not in ANY WAY involve themselves in politics and certainly not warfare.
Many of them have been imprisoned and also lost their lives for their stance and are often persecuted/mocked by their peers if not at school, at work or by other family members. Even so, these ones still manage to love their neighbor as themselves by their actions. It clearly IS possible then to follow Jesus example amidst a deteriorating spiritually sick society.

no corr:)ection needed. To date, there are currently around 7 million of these christians who do not in any way involve themselves in politics and certainly not warfare.
Many of them have been imprisoned and also lost their lives for their stance and and are often persecuted/mocked by their peers if not at school, at work or by other family members. Even so, these ones still manage to love their neighbor as themselves by their actions. It clearly is possible then to follow jesus example amidst a deteriorating spiritually sick society.

You are, of course, right! I am not forgetting those proto-martyrs, of which there are, thanks god, many more than 7 million. I'm thinking, of course, the same as you, of all the missions around the world and of those who sacrifice their lives to help others, like doctors without borders et el al..
But I was, basically referring, to those of us who live in the so called civilized world and are -me too- so much interested in keeping our living standards without too much thinking of others. In fact, I was speaking of all of us who, as you say, are living in a spiritually sick society...
Thanks for the clarification.:)

... Jesus was really furious to see how they were using the Temple for their own selfish purposes. Very much as we do, when we use our religion to hide and shelter our own egocentric whims...
I agree with the thought here... Specially those who (mis)use this board with their Phariseer-like approach blaming others for their posts and (world)views, while doing themselves the same or even worse...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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I agree with the thought here ... Specially those who (mis)use this board with their Phariseer-like approach blaming others for their posts and (world)views, while doing themselves the same or even worse ....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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This is exactly what I meant! When we criticize others we seldom start with any eventual recognition of our own mistakes...

One reason we don't see much love, is that not many have changed into what god is, love.
Hardly anyone is willing to give up their will for god's.
The tool to use, though, is to love god and learn to trust that it's for our own good. Really, it's for others' good as well, especially if we are all working together.

one reason we don't see much love, is that not many have changed into what god is, love.
You mean : you BELIEVE that.
You BELIEVE that "God" is love.
Besides that : the OT clearly shows another side of this "God". No love at all. Hatred, revenge, inspiring to violence, supporting killing, maiming, slavery, war, child abuse, woman inequality, etc. etc. etc.


hardly anyone is willing to give up their will for god's.
As you BELIEVE that "God" gave us human beings free will, than why should we return that free will to "God" again ?
If you receive something, you should use that to the best of your abillities. Not return it to sender !


the tool to use, though, is to love god and learn to trust that it's for our own good. really, it's for others' good as well, especially if we are all working together.
For many to love "God" makes no sense, as there is not a single iota of evidence that "God" exists.
And even if "God" exists, why love that "God" ? I did not ask "God" to create me.
I simply feel no need to love that "God".
I do not even love my parents for "creating" me. I love them because they made me welcome, treated me to the best of their abillities, showed their love to me, and provided me everything I needed to grow into an independent human being.

:)

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You mean : you BELIEVE that.
You BELIEVE that "God" is love.
Besides that : the OT clearly shows another side of this "God". No love at all. Hatred, revenge, inspiring to violence, supporting killing, maiming, slavery, war, child abuse, woman inequality, etc. etc. etc...


Our 'independence' of god results in our not doing to someone what we would have done to us. Our love for ourselves will cause war and chaos with others. I trust, believe, that god wants peace, that's why he rectified our situation with him, by taking our condemnation upon himself. We have his spirit inside us, teaching us how to love. Love leads to peace with others.

... i trust, believe, that god wants peace....
I can accept that as fair comment ! You BELIEVE that !

:)

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Credendo, if you had all knowledge, power, and wisdom, and decided to create humans, would you want them warring with each other?
Would you want them to love each other?
If so, why do you expect any different from god?

Hello cogs
"if I had ... "
It's not important what I have or want.
The relevant part here is the reality ----> Does "God" exist ?

I see no OSE for that existence : you can only BELIEVE that !

:)

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Credendovidis, who do you call to at the moment of despair?

credendo, if you had all knowledge, power, and wisdom, and decided to create humans, would you want them warring with each other?
would you want them to love each other?
if so, why do you expect any different from god?


Our Maker DID offer us the possibility to love each other by sending Jesus to die for ALL of us.
But, at the same time our Maker had also made us free to choose our own destiny.
Jesus showed us the way to follow. If we pay no attention to Him and just do what we feel like while ignoring His message, we have no right to complain and grumble.
In a sheer exhibition of arrogant conceit and pride, we consider ourselves as the core of the Universe, while we are actually no more important than any microorganism vis a vis the known universe which we belong to.
Therefore, rather than wondering whether GOD has forsaken us perhaps we should question ourselves whether we have not given HIM up…

Hello cogs
"if I had ...."
It's not important what I have or want.
The relevant part here is the reality ----> Does "God" exist ?

I see no OSE for that existence : you can only BELIEVE that !

:)

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Believing can be tantamount to knowing. We believe there are natural forces like electricity, magnetism, gravitation or gravity because we can feel their effects and influence. But nobody has actually seen them. Science also speaks of quasars and/or dark holes, although not all scientists agree as to their true composition. But we believe in them…!
Galileo Galilee was forced to recant his theory of heliocentrism which 17th century scientists did not accept. But he believed he was right but could not actually prove it.
And in the 16th century another scientist, Michael Servetus, described pulmonary circulation which made him to be considered almost as a blasphemous. But he believed he was right though he could not prove it either at the time.
So you see, not being able to prove DOES NOT IMPLY it is not true. Perhaps a hundred years from now we shall be able to SCIENTIFICALLY PROVE THAT GOD EXISTS. Meanwhile, I am satisfied by saying along with Galilee, but “IT EXISTS”…

Credendovidis, who do you call to at the moment of despair?
I do not think I ever had a moment of despair in my already rather long life.
Of course also for me : at times life was very good and at other times I had my set-backs.
Just as everyone else I had times of joy and of sorrow. But despair ? No, I never had that.

My parents taught me that growing up meant also learning to deal with the positive and the negative things in life. And they were right. I expect that I can deal with anything that is thrown at me. Though - of course - I hope that all the negative issues are not comng all at once.

Theists should learn that there is no need to always lean on a claimed-to-exist deity for support - support that in reality and in the end is always coming from within yourself anyway!

:)

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... Galileo Galilee was forced to recant his theory of heliocentrism which 17th century scientists did not accept. But he believed he was right but could not actually prove it...
GG was forced by the RCC to recant his heliocentric concept under the threat of death - the execution by the RCC of his contemporary Giordano Bruno was reason enough for GG to recant. Of course GG knew he was right !


... not being able to prove DOES NOT IMPLY it is not true.
Three times the word "not" in a sentence of 12 words? What are you trying to hide ?

Being able to OSE "prove" something DOES RESULT in that something to be "true" .


Perhaps a hundred years from now we shall be able to SCIENTIFICALLY PROVE THAT GOD EXISTS.
"God" is claimed to be non-material as if from a different and unknown dimension.
As science is based on explanation accompanied by and based on Objective Supported Evidence , religion is not interested in real proof . Religion is based on dogma's, claims, and assumptions - none supported by OSE.
Creationists use some format of pseudo-science to claim support for their beliefs.

SCIENTIFIC PROOF THAT "GOD" EXISTS WILL NEVER BE FORTHCOMING !!!

:)

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Credendovidis, so when you're in trouble, you say, 'self, help me out of this'? Or do you say, 'IF there's a god, help me out of this bad situation that's your fault anyway'?
Or do you say, 'since there's no god, I'm doomed anyway, so I give up'?
And you have never been in danger, or desperate, or unable to do something yourself, so you needed help?
My point being, have you never called on god to help you?

credendovidis, so when you're in trouble, you say, 'self, help me out of this'?
No, I simply sort out my problem, do the right thing, pay the dues, etc.


or do you say, 'IF there's a god, help me out of this bad situation that's your fault anyway'?
"God" is no part of my vocabulary in such situations. Why call for an entity for which no OSE exists, in the hope that the deity exists ? Why spill the energy on empty hope ?


or do you say, 'since there's no god, i'm doomed anyway, so i give up'?
"God" is no part of my vocabulary in such situations. Why call for an entity for which no OSE exists, in the hope that the deity exists ? Why spill the energy on empty hope ?


and you have never been in danger, or desperate, or unable to do something yourself, so you needed help?
Yes I was frequently in danger, but not desperate or unable to help myself.
Your best help in danger are you yourself!!


my point being, have you never called on god to help you?
No I never did that. Your best help in danger are you yourself ! Certainly not an entity that is inmaterial and as if in some 5' dimension !

What is it with you : can't you accept that there are people WHO DO NOT NEED that claimed-to-exist entity you address with "God"??


:)

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It's hard for me to believe you have never instinctively called on god to help you.
You would be quite out of the ordinary to have such control of your faculties to defeat survival mechanism.

it's hard for me to believe you have never instinctively called on god to help you.
Onwards the age of 12 I outgrew the unproved-to-exist entity you address with "God".


you would be quite out of the ordinary to have such control of your faculties to defeat survival mechanism.
All non-human life forms have survival mechanisms that lacks any need for the unproved-to-exist entity you address with "God".
Many non-theist human beings have a survival mechanism that lacks any need for the unproved-to-exist entity you address with "God".

You may have a survival mechanism that needs the unproved-to-exist entity you address with "God".
I simply do not need the unproved-to-exist entity you address with "God".

:)

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Then why are you on this forum?

then why are you on this forum?
This is the religious DISCUSSIONS board.
Not the "we are all theist" board , or the we are all Christians board (there is already one of that).
You are here to discuss your views, and I my views.

:)

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So you're an atheist? Someone who cannot see an intelligent design in creation is short-sighted. I would also say that they are frustrated and hopeless, because seeing only what is evident brings disappointment that life has no purpose.
If this is the state you find yourself, consider re-thinking things for your own peace.

The way I see it is as Mopar pointed out
TRUE Christians is different than all these religious churches that people go to to look righteous when their hearts are wicked.
Many think that going to church on Sunday is all it takes to make them a Christian. All that means is they listen to a sermon and live like the devil the other 6 days of the week.

nohelp4u, I don't even know if these kind of people realize they're just as bad as those that don't go to church. God has to show them their sin, and if in their mind they aren't sinning, then they think everything's OK. Even those who think, 'im a good person, I'm nice to everyone', are still just as unregenerated as those who aren't so nice or good.
the trick is not to come to church, but come directly to god in our hearts. The more time I spend with examining my heart against what I believe god wants, the more I realize just how much I need to change.
jesus is the only hope for changing. He says he's the way to god. And he says he's the truth and life. Our sin is vanity (death), and in order to receive life (jesus) in our hearts, we have to allow the spirit of god to give us strength to stop the vanity('stop the insanity' lol):

Psa 105:4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.
Psa 118:14 KJV - The LORD [is] my strength and song, and is become my salvation.
Psa 138:3 KJV - In the day when I cried thou answeredst me, [and] strengthenedst me [with] strength in my soul.

To day’s Gospel is rather indoctrinating, in my opinion.

I quote:
“When the Pharisees heard how Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they came together. One of them, a teacher of the Law, tried to test him with this question, «Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the Law?». Jesus answered, «‘You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind’. This is the first and the most important of the commandments. But after this there is another one very similar to it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’. The whole Law and the Prophets are founded on these two commandments. (Mt. 22:34-40)

Unquote:

Practically, all important religions of this world have always preached (with these and other words) the same message. Which implies that man intimately believes in the sameness of human race and in the necessity to love each other to be able to peacefully live together.

But, speaking only of Christianity, where Jesus’ message is so crystal clear, it is rather extraordinary how we can ALL so bluntly tell untruths and lie when we proudly claim how good Christians we are and how we love our Lord while at the same time showing our total indifference towards our fellow citizens in particular and towards Mankind in general.



I’m sure that the responsible parties of the economic crash we are living in right now DO piously attend the Sunday religious services of their church but have not hesitated one second to get carried away by their personal ambition and greed to accumulate more wealth even if it means to ruin and mess up the world’s economy…
That is what I call “loving myself as I hate others…”



How did you go from the Gospel to a rant on the economic downturn?

Was God more concerned about our souls or our wallets?

Was not Jesus talking more about our relationship with Him first and love for others as a fruit of that?

Why don't you specifically name these Christian impressarios that you can see the speck in their eyes?

How did you go from the Gospel to a rant on the economic downturn?

Was God more concerned about our souls or our wallets?

Was not Jesus talking more about our relationship with Him first and love for others as a fruit of that?

Why don't you specifically name these Christian impressarios that you can see the speck in their eyes?


How did you go from the Gospel to a rant on the economic downturn?

Very simple! The Gospel is the message Jesus left with mankind whereby we are supposed to live in a certain way. I say that those parties responsible of the economic crash PROBABLY claim to be true Christians and, consequently, TO FOLLOW Jesus’ instructions. But they haven’t, for if they had they would not have acted out of an incredible greediness…

Was God more concerned about our souls or our wallets?

I’m sorry to say that no intelligent person should put forward a question like this.
God is only concerned about our sould. Men are the ones concerned about our wallets…

Was not Jesus talking more about our relationship with Him first and love for others as a fruit of that?

Yes. And precisely this is what I am complaining about. That we have ALL lost the basic message of loving each other as we SHOULD love him.

Why don't you specifically name these Christian impressarios that you can see the speck in their eyes?

Why should I? In the first place I’m not saying they are Christian. I am just implying that should they be Christian they would have been acting the wrong way.
Secondly, those parties actually responsible DID act the wrong way by human standards. Much more so, if on top, they considered themselves good Christians.
Thirdly, I cannot point out any names because I do not know any. Do you? If you do perhaps you can enlighten me and then I will tell whether they ccan be considered as Christians or they simpley were atheists or nonbelievers…__________________
Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything else.

When a government controls both the economic power of individuals and the coercive power of the state... this violates a fundamental rule of happy living: Never let the people with all the money and the people with all the guns be the same people.

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys

As for the 3 declarations above I do not know whether they apply here, but I do agree with the 3 of them.

Very simple! The Gospel is the message Jesus left with mankind whereby we are supposed to live in a certain way. I say that those parties responsible of the economic crash PROBABLY claim to be true Christians and, consequently, TO FOLLOW Jesus’ instructions. But they haven’t, for if they had they would not have acted out of an incredible greediness…



Who is responsible for this economic recession? Are they claiming to be Christians?
Then why your rant against Christians?







Was God more concerned about our souls or our wallets?

I’m sorry to say that no intelligent person should put forward a question like this.
God is only concerned about our should. Men are the ones concerned about our wallets…





I guess you could not detect the sarcasm.
Of course God is more concerned with our souls than our bank accounts.




Why don't you specifically name these Christian impressarios that you can see the speck in their eyes?

Why should I? In the first place I’m not saying they are Christian. I am just implying that should they be Christian they would have been acting the wrong way.
Secondly, those parties actually responsible DID act the wrong way by human standards. Much more so, if on top, they considered themselves good Christians.
Thirdly, I cannot point out any names because I do not know any. Do you? If you do perhaps you can enlighten me and then I will tell whether they ccan be considered as Christians or they simply were atheists or nonbelievers





Again, I'm not making the accusation that those responsible for this economic recession are or are not Christians or should or should be Christians. :)

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But given the current situation, with so many more people in need, this is a great time to help each other out and glorify God.

This is the religious DISCUSSIONS board.
Not the "we are all theist" board , or the we are all Christians board (there is already one of that).

Right and Atheism is a known religious view.

Right and Atheism is a known religious view.

You'd have to believe in religion to have a religious view.

You'd have to believe in religion to have a religious view.

Atheism is a religious view. They believe that there is no god. But since they have no evidence, they believe it based on faith that there is no god. Atheism is a religious belief because it represents their belief regarding God.

nohelp4u, i don't even know if these kind of people realize they're just as bad as those that don't go to church. god has to show them their sin, and if in their mind they aren't sinning, then they think everything's ok. even those who think, 'im a good person, i'm nice to everyone', are still just as unregenerated as those who aren't so nice or good.
the trick is not to come to church, but come directly to god in our hearts. the more time i spend with examining my heart against what i believe god wants, the more i realize just how much i need to change.
jesus is the only hope for changing. he says he's the way to god. and he says he's the truth and life. our sin is vanity (death), and in order to receive life (jesus) in our hearts, we have to allow the spirit of god to give us strength to stop the vanity('stop the insanity' lol):

Why do you feel the need to go to church if God is in your heart? That's what I've been asking Christians for a long time on this site. I've never gotten a good answer.

I don't believe in organized religion, nor do I think that the bible is the word of God, but I do believe in God. I don't have to go to a church to hear one mans view (the priest, pastor, what have you) or a man written book.

Most of the people I use to to attend church with, both in the Catholic church and the Lutheran church, were a bunch of hypocrites. Go to church, pray to God, ask for forgiveness, dress in you Sunday best, go home, beat your wife, molest your kids and then go back to church on Sunday.

Church and the bible have nothing to do with your love for God, it's just a way to prove to everyone else that you believe, but it doesn't mean that God is in your heart.

If more people actually accepted God into their heart and didn't just play the part, the world would be a better place.

I guess I don't see it as having faith that there is no God. It's not as if atheists are necessarily dying to believe that there is a God and so have to have faith that there isn't.

It's a matter of looking at religion objectively and see it as a cultural and societal creation, not something to have or not have faith in spiritually.

I guess I don't see it as having faith that there is no God.

One form of faith is believing in someone for which there is no evidence. And it is a religion since it represents their faith regarding God.

Atheism is a faith. Unless, of course, you can prove that there is no God.

I guess I don't see it as having faith that there is no God. It's not as if atheists are necessarily dying to believe that there is a God and so have to have faith that there isn't.

It's a matter of looking at religion objectively and see it as a cultural and societal creation, not something to have or not have faith in spiritually.


I agree.

Most religious people think that all atheist believe in God or are longing to. They can't accept that some people just don't believe. Not believing in God is not a faith based thing, atheists just don't see proof for God, therefore they choose not to believe.

Some Christians believe that badgering someone into accepting God will actually work. So, saying that Atheism is a religion is a way to badger the Atheists, keep them talking so that they can convey their message, try to convert them to God.

Sadly, there are many Christians like this around, but there are also many good Christians that are accepting of others beliefs, or non beliefs. Yes, they may quote the bible to you, they may try to get you to accept God, but they go about it the way that God intended, not obtrusively, but kindly.

To each their own. :)

One form of faith is believing in someone for which there is no evidence. And it is a religion since it represents their faith regarding God.

Atheism is a faith. Unless, of course, you can prove that there is no God.

No one can prove it either way obviously.

I get the feeling you think I'm personally attacking you. I'm not out to disprove there is a God. I just don't believe in religion whatsoever.

Most religious people think that all atheist believe in God or are longing to.

I never heard that from anyone.

Not believing in God is not a faith based thing, atheists just don't see proof for God, therefore they choose not to believe.

Actually, if there is no evidence, then they choose to believe that there is no God.

No one can prove it either way obviously.

I disagree. I believe that there is indeed evidence for the existence of God. But even if you take your approach, then you would have say both sides are faiths. I have no issue with that.


I get the feeling you think I'm personally attacking you. I'm not out to disprove there is a God. I just don't believe in religion whatsoever.

Not at all. So far I have seen no attacks from you. You are welcome to believe what you wish.

Thank you Alty

It's true that the stereotype is that religious people feel that atheists wish they could believe in God, or that they are lost and need help. The fact is that most atheists just simply don't believe in it, not because they are "angry" at God or are depressed and hopeless people, they can just see things that others perhaps can not.
It's all a matter of perspective.

I see religion like I see any cultural practice, like dance. Or art. Or food ceremonies. I guess if you want to say I have faith in art or dance or something then it makes sense. But only to that point.

I see religion like I see any cultural practice, like dance. Or art. Or food ceremonies. I guess if you want to say I have faith in art or dance or something then it makes sense. But only to that point.

We can see these ceremonies. We can see art. We can see dance. They are clearly real and be proven to exist.

Belief that there is no God is just that - a belief. A faith.

Further, since Christianity believes that there will be a judgment after you die. Atheists do not accept Christ as Saviour because they have faith that there will be no judgment, though they have no evidence that there will not be.

xxariesxx, I'm one of those people who believes in God but not all the trappings. I'm a Deist, so my faith is based more on belief of what I feel is out there not on what anyone can prove is out there.

I love discussing other's beliefs, sadly, the only ones willing and open minded enough to discuss religious beliefs with me, so far, have been Atheists and a handful of Christians.

Not one Atheist on this board has ever told me that my beliefs are wrong, but many Christians have, because I don't believe what they do.

I truly believe that everyone has a right to believe, or not believe, what they choose. That's what makes this world so interesting, many different people with many different views. :)

We can see these ceremonies. We can see art. We can see dance. They are clearly real and be proven to exist.

Belief that there is no God is just that - a belief.

My point is that these are all cultural and societal practices. Not universals.

xxariesxx, I'm one of those people who believes in God but not all the trappings. I'm a Deist, so my faith is based more on belief of what I feel is out there not on what anyone can prove is out there.

I love discussing other's beliefs, sadly, the only ones willing and open minded enough to discuss religious beliefs with me, so far, have been Atheists and a handful of Christians.

Not one Atheist on this board has ever told me that my beliefs are wrong, but many Christians have, because I don't believe what they do.

I truly believe that everyone has a right to believe, or not believe, what they choose. That's what makes this world so interesting, many different people with many different views. :)

Exactly! I don't want to attack anyone for their beliefs, I just wish more could be open minded and discuss it all rationally as well :)

Exactly! I don't want to attack anyone for their beliefs, I just wish more could be open minded and discuss it all rationally as well :)

It could happen on a smaller scale, but on a site like this, with so many different people and so many different beliefs, it's not easy to have a rational discussion about religion. Religion can be a touchy subject to some people, and many die hard Christians cannot accept any way but their own.

It would be nice to actually discuss our differneces with open minded people of all faiths. Is it possible? I don't know, but I wish it was.

I have many friends on this site that are Atheists, I also have friends that are Christians, and others of different faiths. We all get along well, because we respect each other as human beings. Sadly, that respect is usually missing on the religious discussion sites.

If you ever want to have a discussion with me about our different beliefs, I'd be more than happy to listen to what you have to say. :)

It could happen on a smaller scale, but on a site like this, with so many different people and so many different beliefs, it's not easy to have a rational discussion about religion. Religion can be a touchy subject to some people, and many die hard Christians cannot accept any way but their own.

It would be nice to actually discuss our differneces with open minded people of all faiths. Is it possible? I don't know, but I wish it was.

I have many friends on this site that are Atheists, I also have friends that are Christians, and others of different faiths. We all get along well, because we respect eachother as human beings. Sadly, that respect is usually missing on the religious discussion sites.

If you ever want to have a discussion with me about our different beliefs, I'd be more than happy to listen to what you have to say. :)

Thanks :) The same to you, I'm always up to listen and discuss.

My point is that these are all cultural and societal practices. Not universals.

But there is a difference. Cultural practices do not require you to believe this or that. But religions are a matter of what one believes about God - who He is, His nature, if He exists. Some culture may build their god into their culture, but one does not have to be of a specific culture to be Christian (for example).

For christians, god is universal. He's in everything.

Honestly, the main point is about something we all have, our spirit, or heart and mind. That which motivates us to act.

I believe there's something better for us, as we are purged from hate, unforgiveness, pride, lust, covetousness(drawing everything to us) which causes stealing, jealousy, haughtiness(putting others down for our benefit), murder, etc... you can see that their absence in our heart would make a better world.
Atheists may attempt to change, but christians rely on god to show them exactly where they lack, and receive strength from him to change. He's the pattern.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems that atheists, without god directing them, do whatever they please, and give no thought to examining their hearts to the end of stopping harmful ways?

for christians, god is universal. he's in everything.

honestly, the main point is about something we all have, our spirit, or heart and mind. that which motivates us to act.

i believe there's something better for us, as we are purged from hate, unforgiveness, pride, lust, covetousness(drawing everything to us) which causes stealing, jealousy, haughtiness(putting others down for our benefit), murder, etc... you can see that their absence in our heart would make a better world.
atheists may attempt to change, but christians rely on god to show them exactly where they lack, and receive strength from him to change. he's the pattern.
tell me if i'm wrong, but it seems that atheists, without god directing them, do whatever they please, and give no thought to examining their hearts to the end of stopping harmful ways?

I know what's going to happen when I say this, but please read it with an open mind and heart.

I know many Atheists that are far more decent people than the Christians I went to school with. Most of the Atheists I know do charity work, help their fellow man, are good, kind, caring people. The absence of God in their lives hasn't made them do whatever they please, they just don't believe in God, that's it. Of course there are exceptions, but the same can be said for Christians. Just being Christian doesn't mean that you live a good life, that you do good deeds, that you make the world better. Christianity is just a title, it has nothing to do with what's inside a persons soul.

It's a choice, and we all have that choice, whether we believe in God or not. You can choose to be good, or you can choose to be bad, it doesn't matter if you are Atheist, Christian, Deist, whatever, we all have that choice.

So yes, I respectfully disagree.

tell me if i'm wrong, but it seems that atheists, without god directing them, do whatever they please, and give no thought to examining their hearts to the end of stopping harmful ways?

The problem is that atheists do not have any basis for their behaviour. Some many choose to behave in an exemplary manner, others may not. In any case, their ethics can vary across the spectrum because there is absolutely no standard for behaviour or ethics other than the person's own motivation or perhaps what they view to be societal ethics.

Yes, I believe there is no mirror they look at to see their own sin. If they stumble across something they don't like within themselves, they either ignore it or try to do better.
I think it's about spiritual growth. We have no help if we don't have the spirit within us. There's no life-giving force that will work god's will through us, if we deny him.

And what about the Christians who still do bad things, what mirror are they looking at, or do they think that simply being a Christian will get them into heaven.

You can believe in God all you want, but if you're still a bad person here on earth, do you really think you'll still be accepted into heaven?

I know when I've sinned, I don't need God to tell me. I do believe in God, but I don't need to go to church or read the bible in order to believe. Those are just man made things, God didn't have a hand in it.

So go to church, kneel in front of your false idols (oops 1 commandment broken), go home and do what you want because you think you're immune because Jesus died for your sins. The rest of us will just try our best to be good people. Sin, yes, but still good people.

The problem is that atheists do not have any basis for their behaviour.
Of course that is total cr*p, and you know that. We had this same argument many times before, and my reply to your nonsense is still the same :

Atheists have the best and most honest basis of all : unlike theists their drive is based on fairness for all, not for the christian "reward-in-the-hereafter".
Atheists live on the basis of the golden rule.

Christianity is partly also based on that same golden rule, but the religion has basterdized the golden rule with all kinds of additional claims, promisses, and suggestions.

The Golden Rule : "Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity)." (Thales)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Yes you do have to believe in your culture to follow it. Yes you do have to be of a specific culture to be a Christian. If Christianity was universal, it would not be a cultural attribute. But it's not. There are many, many places in the world it is not practiced or believed, and so it is something passed down through generations and the society just like any other cultural practice.

People have a conscious for a reason; whether you're a Christian or not, one still regrets their actions, know what is right and wrong, feels guilt, etc.

If someone "stumbles", regardless of belief, yes they are going to ignore it or do better. It has nothing to do with religion. In fact I would argue that many times those that believe in religion would rather attribute negative things in the world to "God's will" than to find an actual solution to the issue.
God's will explains everything so often there is no need to question anything.

Of course that is total cr*p, and you know that. We had this same argument many times before, and my reply to your nonsense is still the same :

Atheists have the best and most honest basis of all : unlike theists their drive is based on fairness for all, not for the christian "reward-in-the-hereafter".
Atheists live on the basis of the golden rule.

Christianity is partly also based on that same golden rule, but the religion has basterdized the golden rule with all kinds of additonal claims, promisses, and suggestions.

The Golden Rule : "Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity)." (Thales)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Cred,

Got to call you out on this one.. if you are living by the "golden rule" then you could have fooled me. You had never had a conversation with me before but one of your first comments to me was rude and judgemental... and all because I called myself a Christian. TSK TSK...

It's a choice, and we all have that choice, whether we believe in God or not. You can choose to be good, or you can choose to be bad, it doesn't matter if you are Atheist, Christian, Deist, whatever, we all have that choice.

This captures my feelings very well.

The values I have I learned from my parents, friends, teachers, and books. I think the same is true of anyone who believes in God. We all learn our values from others. Whether we choose to believe those values ultimately came from God is a matter of faith. For many people God is a manifestation of goodness. And that works for me.

Cred,

Got to call you out on this one..if you are living by the "golden rule" then you could have fooled me. You had never had a conversation with me before but one of your first comments to me was rude and judgemental...and all because I called myself a Christian. TSK TSK.....

Absolutely right.

The Golden Rule comes from the Bible, and it is not and certainly never has been a standard by which atheists live, and you pointed out an excellent example.

Yes you do have to believe in your culture to follow it.

But once again, you see your culture - that is not a matter of faith.


Yes you do have to be of a specific culture to be a Christian.

Christianity exists in many different cultures around the world, and exhibits itself in many different ways, but always with one and the same faith. In the Bible we see expressions of Christianity within the Jewish culture and today in the Western world, we see a much different expression, but the very same beliefs and faith.

Cred,

Got to call you out on this one..if you are living by the "golden rule" then you could have fooled me. You had never had a conversation with me before but one of your first comments to me was rude and judgemental...and all because I called myself a Christian. TSK TSK.....
... So you herewith ADMIT you are one and the same as sassyT... something you denied earlier... I call that deliberate deception...

No dear : it was you with your sharp tongue (tone) who provoked me to react the way I did : stating that you were posting "steer-dung".

And I remember very well that this started you on your way to your infamous lies about your educational level (having a degree in biology) - which you had to redraw later on...

I have always used the golden rule towards other peoples religious beliefs.
Towards their beliefs. Not towards their ridiculous and unsupported additional claims that what they BELIEVE has any validity towards reality.

:D :rolleyes: :p :) :rolleyes: :D

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... So you herewith ADMIT you are one and the same as sassyT... something you denied earlier... I call that deliberate deception...

This comment proved exactly what she said about your behaviour, Cred.


No dear : it was you with your sharp tongue (tone) who provoked me to react the way I did : stating that you were posting "steer-dung".

It seems that every single Christian must, as you say "provoke" you. Indeed it seems that simply existing and daring to disagree with you, or express our Christian faith "provokes" you, which usually results in your making abusive comments about those who dare to disagree with you, such as:


And I remember very well that this started you on your way to your infamous lies about your educational level (having a degree in biology) - which you had to redraw later on...


I have always used the golden rule towards other peoples religious beliefs.

Except your golden rule seems to be:
"Do unto others BEFORE they do unto you". :p

The Golden Rule comes from the Bible, and it is nto and certainly never has been a standard by which atheists live, and you pointed out an excellent example.
Total nonsense!!

The golden rules was wellknown long before the first letter was ever started on the first bible chapter.
The golden rule is NOT some form of property of Christianity.
Atheists have - just as all other people - used the golden rule to live a proper , prosperous, and safe live.
What Atheists did not was - unlike christians - abuse the golden rule for their own religious delusions.

:D :rolleyes: :p :) :rolleyes: :D

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Total nonsense!!

Starting with the usual comment.


The golden rules was wellknown long before the first letter was ever started on the first bible chapter.

It was known in ancient Israel in the law given to the Jews by God:

Lev 19:18
18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.
NKJV

But if course you know that Jesus was and is the Jewish Messiah who Christians follow as Lord.

Now, Cred, tell us really, what is the standard that atheists follow?

I doubt there is a Santa Claus living at the North Pole, with elves and Mrs. Claus.
Is my lack of belief a belief or faith?

I admire Gromitt's post. I try to live ethically. In my youth, I did so because that was the way I was raised. As I get older, I feel increasingly that it is something I choose to try to do, no matter how often I fail. I Believe that this is the right thing to do. I cannot prove it is right. I feel that my values are essentially christian, so it always seems odd that a few christians condemn me not for my behavior or values but for a failure to pay homage to something that is invisible to me, and, from my perspective, non existent. God had not revealed Himself to me.

>Thread Closed<

As ever degenerated into mud slinging.