Are there any Christian sects that believe other religions offer ways to salvation? I understand that the Christian fundamentalists would say no, but what about the main stream Christian sects?

I'm not sure what you're asking, but,

Jhn 10:7 Jesus therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

And,

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And,

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Therefore there's exclusivity when it comes to salvation, because jesus is the only acceptable sacrifice.

i'm not sure what you're asking, but,

Jhn 10:7 Jesus therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

and,

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

and,

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

therefore there's exclusivity when it comes to salvation, because jesus is the only acceptable sacrifice.


What I meant was can Hindus, say, achieve salvation through their own understanding of God. Or Buddhists. Or atheists (non-God). Or whatever.

Thank you for your answer. I'm a little surprised that you defend it internally, so to speak, from your sects writings. I suspect a Buddhist could equally defend his position from his sacred writings. Or a Hindu. Or any other religionist.

Back in the days when I was young and mastodons roamed the earth, we Americans were all pretty separate--definitely from foreign countries (one had to be fairly wealthy to travel overseas, or at least it wasn't something just anyone did) and even by states. Without interstate highways, traveling across country took days. Communication wasn't that great either. If there was a plane crash in California, most of the nation didn't know about it until the next morning's newspaper came out.

All that is different now. People of all ages and income levels travel to all sorts of places, and communication is instantaneous. As a kid, I had never met or even heard of or seen a Muslim or a Hindu or a Jew or even an atheist except as words on a page or a picture in a book. Our community was German Lutheran and pretty much revolved around itself. Now that community is ten times larger and is home to Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and even atheists.

The U.S. for example, has become much more wide open about religion because of travel and communication. What used to be fearful (Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and atheists) because they were unknown and because Christian communities didn't want to know them have become the ordinary. Coworkers, neighbors, retail clerks, fellow shoppers and so on are now those Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and atheists. Because of that, we in general are much more open minded and accepting because they are no longer photos in a book or people who live somewhere else, but have become part of us and are accepted into our everyday lives.

So, in answer to your question, yes, I believe mainstream Christianity, in welcoming people from other religions or not-religion into their communities, has acknowledged and even accepted that there are truths in other belief systems.

What I meant was can Hindus, say, achieve salvation through their own understanding of God. Or Buddhists. Or atheists (non-God). Or whatever.
That's a different question from the one you originally asked.

That's a different question from the one you originally asked.

It was a reply to a reply. Surely that is allowed here. Isn't that the point of dialogue?

Back in the days when I was young and mastodons roamed the earth, we Americans were all pretty separate--definitely from foreign countries (one had to be fairly wealthy to travel overseas, or at least it wasn't something just anyone did) and even by states. Without interstate highways, traveling across country took days. Communication wasn't that great either. If there was a plane crash in California, most of the nation didn't know about it until the next morning's newspaper came out.

All that is different now. People of all ages and income levels travel to all sorts of places, and communication is instantaneous. As a kid, I had never met or even heard of or seen a Muslim or a Hindu or a Jew or even an atheist except as words on a page or a picture in a book. Our community was German Lutheran and pretty much revolved around itself. Now that community is ten times larger and is home to Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and even atheists.

The U.S., for example, has become much more wide open about religion because of travel and communication. What used to be fearful (Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and atheists) because they were unknown and because Christian communities didn't want to know them have become the ordinary. Coworkers, neighbors, retail clerks, fellow shoppers and so on are now those Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and atheists. Because of that, we in general are much more open minded and accepting because they are no longer photos in a book or people who live somewhere else, but have become part of us and are accepted into our everyday lives.

So, in answer to your question, yes, I believe mainstream Christianity, in welcoming people from other religions or not-religion into their communities, has acknowledged and even accepted that there are truths in other belief systems.

Nicely done, but do your "truths" equal salvation in the Christian sense? Are their truths as good as your truths?

Nicely done, but do your "truths" equal salvation in the Christian sense? Are their truths as good as your truths?
Yes, I believe it has come around to that. Maybe it's because I live in a quite cosmopolitan area. If I still lived in that formerly German Lutheran village, I might still be pretty closed-minded. Many of the residents there still have only high school educations and don't read books and hang out only with others like themselves. I've found that, the more educated and the more well-read one is and the more he hangs out with those unlike himself, the more open-minded he becomes. Truth becomes fuzzier, blurred. My truth is only that, my truth, and is no better or worse than his truth.

What I meant was can Hindus, say, achieve salvation through their own understanding of God. Or Buddhists. Or atheists (non-God). Or whatever.
Regarding salvation, you would have to ask from what is one saved? Are the people in the other religions being saved from the same things? I think the answer is yes; our faults are all the same in humanity.


Thank you for your answer. I'm a little surprised that you defend it internally, so to speak, from your sects writings. I suspect a Buddhist could equally defend his position from his sacred writings. Or a Hindu. Or any other religionist.
They would have to deny the jesus from scripture. Surely, they all respect a god, and that god may even be the same god each worships, just in their own viewpoint.
However, if there's only one god, that god would have only one way to salvation. All religions cannot be right about their idea of sanctification, such as reincarnation, or good deeds, or whatever. Chaos is not what god is about. God is order.
So my answer is still that different religions do not have a common path to salvation, or much less, sanctification.

It was a reply to a reply. Surely that is allowed here. Isn't that the point of dialogue?
You replied by saying, "What I meant was...." and not a reply to a reply.

If any person is depending on a different God than the Father of Jesus the Christ, they will have to:

Follow completely the rules of that god... and then

Be dependent on THAT god to save them.


NOTE: no other God even promises salvation as a gift because of His love, but all other religions require that you earn your salvation by following all the rules.

Because of the Bible scripture, Christians would not accept that any religion but their own is the right one.

I do not believe that death is an ending. Therefore, I have nothing to be saved from because there is all the time needed to figure it out. Therefore all religions are "right" and no one is "wrong." With that out of the way we can ask, and answer, the question: "what are we doing here?"

The answer is being. That's all we have to do. Whether we strive to become the way, the truth and the life, or not, does not matter. There are two emotions, and only two as the rest are born from these two. Love or fear. Which do You choose?

Athos... you asked a direct question regarding the Christian faith. Why wouldn't someone answer you with quotes from the writings of that religion?

You are asking if there are any Christian sects that believe that salvation is offered in any other religion.

The answer is yes. All Christians believe salvation comes through accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior.

There are other religions that also believe this... Catholics, certain Jewish sects, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and probably some more...

Granted, some Christians will probably contest that but realistically, they still believe that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior so...

There are other religions that also believe this...Catholics
When did Catholicism become part of "other religions"? It has always been Christian.

When did Catholicism become part of "other religions"? It has always been Christian.

My apologies. I would like to strike that from the record.

Momentary lapse in brain waves... it's late Friday :)

My apologies. I would like to strike that from the record.

Momentary lapse in brain waves... it's late Friday :)
It's almost 7 p.m. here in Chicagoland, and you're in California (almost 5 p.m.). It's late Friday?

With the exceptions of some fringe groups that most christians do not view as christian ( some of the unity churches that accept any faith)

But in general the teachings of christianity, teach that there is only salvation in that faith. So if you are really christian you can not accept any other way

It's almost 7 p.m. here in Chicagoland, and you're in California (almost 5 p.m.). It's late Friday?

After the Thursday night I had... it was late before I showed up to work today.



I know what a Catholic is... I understand that Catholics are Christians, too... I meant no disrespect. I just didn't think that post through... I should have phrased it differently. I apologize.

I was raised Protestant Christian and, by default, have always just viewed Catholicism as a different "religion"... even though I know better.

After the Thursday night I had... it was late before I showed up to work today.



I know what a Catholic is... I understand that Catholics are Christians, too... I meant no disrespect. I just didn't think that post through... I should have phrased it differently. I apologize.

I was raised Protestant Christian and, by default, have always just viewed Catholicism as a different "religion"... even though I know better.
I'm Lutheran, so no problem. I just get riled when posters here speak of Christians and Catholics, like Catholics are some other breed.

I just don't see how a CHRISTIAN could ever think so... not a real one anyway! If you follow Christ then you have to believe his words... John 14:6... if you read the verse he point blank says... ain't NO ONE going to get to the Father except through ME. ( my wording of course but that is what he says)

But I think there is so much watering down of the truth I feel certain you can find so called believers you think you can. In fact, I have talked to them on this forum... so I KNOW it. It sounds good doesn't it?. very spirtual and Open minded, tolerant, progresive.. but it is so wrong!

Back to Athos, who seems to have two (related) questions on the table:
1. Does mainstream Christianity believe other religions offer ways to salvation?
2. Can Hindus, say, achieve salvation through their own understanding of God. Or Buddhists. Or atheists (non-God). Or whatever.

I just don't see how a CHRISTIAN could ever think so...not a real one anyway! If you follow Christ then you have to believe his words....John 14:6.....if you read the verse he point blank says...ain't NO ONE gonna get to the Father except thru ME. ( my wording of course but that is what he says)
I'm a real one. Have you read Hebrews 11?

The Faith chapter? Of course.. but I don't get your point?

Athos,
There are many Christians who believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father and that it is He who will decide who goes where
Thus those who believe that are not limiting salvation to just Christians. Many believe that Jews will also be saved and PERHAPS SOME others depending on how Jesus judges them.
Personally I believe that true Christians will be saved and very possibly many Jews.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The Faith chapter? of course..but I don't get your point?
What is faith?

Are there any Christian sects that believe other religions offer ways to salvation? I understand that the Christian fundamentalists would say no, but what about the main stream Christian sects?

The Catholic Church teaches that:

1. God wants all men to be saved:

1 Timothy 2 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2. all men have the natural law imprinted in their hearts:

Romans 2 14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:15 Who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

Therefore, no one has an excuse for not obeying God and being saved.

3. James 1 27 Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.

1955 The "divine and natural" law shows man the way to follow so as to practice the good and attain his end. The natural law states the first and essential precepts which govern the moral life. It hinges upon the desire for God and submission to him, who is the source and judge of all that is good, as well as upon the sense that the other is one's equal. Its principal precepts are expressed in the Decalogue. This law is called "natural," not in reference to the nature of irrational beings, but because reason which decrees it properly belongs to human nature:

Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring. The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.



"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3 (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#843)

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria,
Excellent post.
I'm glad you posted it for all to see and to help them understand.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

What is faith?

Well Hebrews chapter 11 defines faith.. the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. But I'm still unsure of your point? Sorry.. I guess I'm slow.

well Hebrews chapter 11 defines faith..the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. But i'm still unsure of your point? sorry..i guess i'm slow.
Would you say that, in light of Hebrews 11, De Maria is correct about "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation"?

classyT,
I believe that faith is much more than just belief.
It is belief, plus trust and a knowing which can all come through the Grace of god.
Practicing one's faith strengthens it like exercising a muscle strengthens it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl,
I believe that faith is much more than just belief.
It is belief, plus trust and a knowing which can all come through the Grace of god.
Practicing one's faith strengthens it like exercising a muscle strengthens it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The answear is written in Romans ch. 2
''1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves

The Catholic Church teaches that:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337


Sincerely,

De Maria


I understand this answer, at least for Catholics, to be a resounding "Yes" to my original question. It seems the bottom line for Catholics on this topic is "... through the dictates of their conscience".

Wondergirl,
I believe that faith is much more than just belief.
It is belief, plus trust and a knowing which can all come through the Grace of god.
Practicing one's faith strengthens it like exercising a muscle strengthens it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
So are you saying that a non-Christian who has faith and trust in his version of God will be saved?

Wondergirl,
No, I was saying what a religious faith is.
I am not going to try to judge who is or is not saved. That job is for God ALONE.
The path to salvation is spelled out in the bible and please note that there are many different passages that tell us about the many steps to take along that path.
Faith is one of the big important steps, but there are more such as being good, not evil, doing the good works as instructed, obeying the law, and persevering to the end.
Thus we have the HOPE of salvation. As the bible says
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Would you say that, in light of Hebrews 11, De Maria is correct about "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation"?

Wow,

That is a great question and I don't know that I have some great answer. I can tell you what I KNOW to be true as far as the Bible is concerned.

The gospel of John the first chapter... john starts talking about the WORD of God which is Jesus. He also says that he made everything and that he is light... if you drop down to the 9th verse... he point blank makes this statement and I think it is HUGE. He says the true Light which lights every man that comes into the world. WOW. We pass by that verse without letting it sink in!! Sounds pretty crazy and yet that is exactly what the Word says. How does he do it? I have NO idea.. but I believe it. ( how is that for faith) ;)

There are many people who want to discuss this issue... what about this nation, this people, this tribe, this ciulture?. (that have NEVER HEARD the gospel) Well here is my answer to them... I don't know! I trust God enough to let him be GOD.. he is JUST and sovereign. THEN I follow that up with this... What will YOU DO with Christ? It is a personal thing... and I believe it is a way to get distracted from that reality... THEY have a decision to make. Let God handle the other...

And I still stand on the verse that NO ONE gets to the Father but through Jesus... Period. Jesus said it... not classyT... ha.

classyT,
Yes No one gets to the Father but by Jesus,
He is the judge.
His ministry on earth show Him to be kind, compassionate, merciful, forgiving.
So I expect Him to be that way when Judgment Day arrives.
He will decide who goes where.
Please and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

2. all men have the natural law imprinted in their hearts:
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring. The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.
God,
2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


... and I still stand on the verse that NO ONE gets to the Father but through Jesus... Period. Jesus said it... not classyT... ha.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Therefore, there's a process to salvation, that god planned through jesus' work. When jesus was finally resurrected, the spirit of god now imprints his law onto our hearts, and helps us to be sanctified.

Act 2:32 This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.
Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 And Peter [said] unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

NO ONE gets to the Father but thru Jesus...Period. Jesus said it...not classyT...ha.
Okay. Then consider this. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus is quoted as telling his disciples and the people in the crowds to love your enemies, to love your neighbor as yourself, that love is the fulfilling of the Law, that loving God is the greatest commandment with the second greatest being love one another. Jesus also said that it is only by losing oneself (in unconditional love toward another) that one can find oneself.

I work with Manisha, a Hindu from India. She has known only Hinduism since the day she was born. Her family for generations has been Hindu. Manisha lives her faith and doesn't have a mean bone in her body. She gives freely and generously to others of her time and talents. She epitomizes someone who follows Jesus' two greatest commandments. Does it matter that she is Hindu? Does her being Hindu cancel out the love that she shows to God* and to others?

*Hinduism considers God not just as the Supreme All-powerful Gigantic One, Who commands the humanity to tread the way He/She/It says, but also a personal God Whom the individual can worship out of love.

Wondergirl,

All I can do is point to God's Word and what IT has to say. You know, I don't think that it address the age old question: well what about the one who has never heard of Jesus or the Gospel or how to be saved. I know the heart of the Lord was for all of us to go to the ends of the earth preaching what he did for us. But I can tell you that God is LOVE and he is a Just GOD full of mercy, grace and goodness. I am content to Let God be God in these instances.

BUT to those who have heard the Gospel and rejected Jesus Christ.. even IF they are still kind and follow all the golden rules I will tell you what the LORD has to say about them, he lumps them in with the worst of the worst...

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abdominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers and idolaters and all lairs shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire.

YIKES.. all you got to be is UNBELIEVING... and of course a unbeliever would be someone who heard but say NO... I believe Hinduism or Wicca, or Buddha, or whatever... they rejected Jesus.

The GOOD NEWS IS: Whosoever will may come and they still do everyday!

cogs,
Yes it has been called "The natural law of man."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Cogs,

Faith in the work of Jesus Christ plus NOTHING! That is the process my friend... :)

classyT,
Plus doing what he said to do.
Fred

I don't know about a law of man, or belief in jesus being salvation alone.
Surely, these things are evident in those that are being sanctified, but sanctification must occur. We can say we believe in jesus, and still be immersed in sin. We can do good naturally, yet still be unclean to god.
Like where I posted in another thread, what about these verses?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:

And,

1Cr 6:9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
1Cr 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.

BUT to those who have heard the Gospel and rejected Jesus Christ..even IF they are still kind and follow all the golden rules I will tell you what the LORD has to say about them, he lumps them in with the worst of the worst...
And if you, being born into a Christian family, were told that Hinduism is the only way to heaven/paradise, what would you do? Would you change what has been part of your family for generations and go against what you believe to be true?

Wondergirl,

AHHH! You are forgetting something that is very important... the HOLY SPIRIT! He is the one that opens up the eyes and clears the ears. Truth and Light will always overcome darkness. She has the same opportunity that you did. Before you were saved.. you were lost and on your way to hell... she isn't ANY more lost right now. Give her the Gospel and let the Holy Spirit do HIS job.

Hey, take a look at the nation of Israel, as a nation God blinded them from the truth because they rejected the Messiah. But in his GRACE and MERCY individual jews come to Jesus everyday!

IN the natural it looks impossible.. but it is always a miracle when someone believes!

Before you were saved..you were lost and on your way to hell...she isn't ANY more lost right now. Give her the Gospel and let the Holy Spirit do HIS job.
I was never "lost" nor was I on my way to hell.

Manisha will no more give up her Hinduism for something unintelligible like Christianity than you will your Christianity for Hinduism.

Cogs and Arcura,

I appreciate your wisdom but I disagree with you both... it is faith plus NUTTIN!

Cogs, you gottta remember when Peter was talking to the 3000.. he didn't know anything about the church and thought the Lord was coming to set up his Kingdom within DAYS. They were practicing jews and YES.. repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus was Exactly how it had to be... that would be RADICAL and denouncing Judism and all that they had known. But he had NO IDEA that the gentiles were going to be grafted in... he didn't understand the plan yet.. that was revealed to the apostle Paul. Read his epistles for salvation.

Wondergirl,

You were never lost and on your way to hell? Ahhh OK maybe I assumed you were saved but apparently you don't understand salvation. Cause you were BORN unsaved!

I disagree with you about your friend... Is anything to hard for the LORD?

it is faith plus NUTTIN!
"Faith without works is dead."

Wondergirl,

you were never lost and on your way to hell? ahhh ok maybe i assumed you were saved but apparently you don't understand salvation. Cause you were BORN unsaved!

I disagree with you about your friend....Is anything to hard for the LORD?

What makes us unsaved when we're born?

Wondergirl,

Who said that? Who is He talking to? What is he talking about. Got to understand this when reading the word or you get confused!

Cause you were BORN unsaved!
And was baptized soon after birth.

Wondergirl,

Who said that? Who is He talking to? What is he talking about. Gotta understand this when reading the word or you get confused!
James 2:20.

I am definitely not confused.

Cogs,

Great question! What makes you unsaved when you are born is a little thing called SIN. WE are born with it... kinda like having a disease past on from generation to generation. It is something that we have to deal with as we grow up and start to understand it. This is why the Lord said we had to be born again. Receive a NEW nature because the old one is corrupt.

Now having said that, does this mean I think babies who die go to hell. NO I do NOT! They are not accountable and I believe the Lord who is just and merciful will take care of all the little ones.

how do we deal with sin? Isn't sin connected with our salvation?
if we're born into sin, what changes in us, that we're able to
attain salvation? What is sin?

Wondergirl,

Baptisim never saved a soul!

And what Christian church are you part of that you disbelieve the Bible on baptism?

We're off topic here, so let's get back to the OP's questions, methinks.

Cogs,

I know you know the answer to this question... we deal with it by recognizing that we are lost on our way to hell, sinners, enemies of God. THEN we ask the Lord Jesus to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all of our unrighteousness. Those are the steps to salvation.. once one has accepted Jesus as their savior... then they should be baptized because the LORD ask us to. It does NOT have anything to do with salvation.. it is a outward appearance of a inward change in our lives.

Wondergirl,

Baptism isn't going to save anyone! Jesus blood does. I didn't say you shouldn't be baptized... in fact in obedience to the LORD you should!

One last thing and then we should stop because we are off thread. I KNOW you know where it came from... but do you understand that James is a little Jewish epistle steeped in the law written to the JEWS. If you want to understand salvation and faith, you need to read Paul's epistles. And for the record... Faith without works IS DEAD.. it just isn't null and void!

Classyt, of course I know the answers, probably to every question I ask on here. But, if god is going to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, is it in name only, or as you stated, do we receive a 'new nature'? The new nature surely is something that sets us on the path to salvation. Jesus sent his spirit to us for a very good reason.

once one has accepted Jesus as their savior
A person can only say no (not yes) to God. The accepting is solely the work of the Holy Spirit. To claim otherwise is work righteousness.

Cogs.. of course we get the Holy Spriit the minute we believe.. ephesians says we were SEALED .

Classyt what good is the holy spirit, if we're not being transformed? And how does the spirit do this in us? Who is the holy spirit? Again, is it in word only that we receive this spirit?

Wondergirl,

Well, we are giving a free will, the Holy Spirit will work on us... he will give us many opportunities to come but if we continue to say no, he will leave us alone.

We can say yes or no... WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME... you have a choice.. we all have a choice.

Cogs,

I received the Holy Spirit the second I believed. I am transformed by reading and meditating on the WORD. I am convicted by him too. Do I believe in speaking in tongues.. yep I do. But I got all of the Holy Spirit the day I believed. Is that what you mean?

I'll save you the headache... lol... the sprit is the living god. His word in us tells us what we're doing wrong (sin). We try to stop that, with his power. Through our purification, we are on our way to heaven, not just assenting to a belief in him. Otherwise the holy spirit could have just stayed in heaven, patting us on the head for our agreement that jesus died for our sins.

And if you don't see how my previous post could be true, then why did jesus reject those who did works in his name? Didn't they believe in him?

Who did he reject? You mean when they came and said Lord Lord.. haven't we done this and that and then he said depart I never knew you? If that is what you are referring to, I think he made himself clear.. they may have had a head knowledge of him but Jesus said... I NEVER knew you... never... never... don't know you. In other words.. there was no reality or relationship.

Classyt, yes, a relationship. Okay. He said, '... ye that work iniquity'. These do-gooders he basically called people who sin. That's us. Lol. We're the workers of iniquity.

Yes, the difference is... he KNOWS ME! Big difference... he can't say that he doesn't because we have a relationship.. note that he didn't say... I use to know you but you blew it with all your evil ways... he says I NEVER knew you.. gotta love the LORD!

In what way does he know us?

He knows every single one of us. We're back to the baby thing. We're born with sin. We do not know god. But, we're on our way if we have the spirit of purification sanctifying us for the kingdom of heaven.

Oh good gravy!. (you know what I'm going to say) I am in CHRIST... he is IN ME! I talk to him every day... a million times. I am washed in his blood, I am HIS and NO man shall pluck me out of his hands. He will NEVER leave me or forsake me. That is how he knows ME.

You are not washed (esp in blood, yuk). Not yet. Neither am I. the holy spirit has not yet finished his work in us.

Cogs,

Talk to me like I am two.. or a blonde.. ha! What are you saying to me?

But classyt, as a christian, I love you! Really. I'll let you in on a website that took me all my life to find (sounds dramatic, but true).

The Way to Righteousness (http://www.hallvworthington.com/index.html)

Well not really washed in it but Jesus shed it for me and cleansed me... from all my sin. My work isn't going to be done until he removes me from this world. But I beg to differ.. I am cleansed by his blood. The blood of jesus christ his son cleanses us from all sin.

OK.. I briefly went to it.. I will have to look at it tomorrow when I am not so tired.you think that we can become like Jesus here on earth and never sin again? I agree with the goal! I believe that it is a false teaching... if this were true and we no longer had the sin nature.. we wouldn't die my friend. We wouldn't get cancer, colds. And I like to think sin is what is causing my wrinkles and jelly belly ( well that and cheese cake) ha. When we get our new bodies then we will not have a sin nature.. until then I appreicate the goal. But I think we will have this nature until we die. ( but I will read it more careful tomorrow)

The Pew Forum Survey is on this exact topic. 2/3rds. Of main stream Christianity has now changed their opinion about Jesus being the only way to Salvation. I wrote the following press release at prlog.

Pew Forum Survey (http://www.prlog.org/10086283-carnal-christians-exposed-in-pew-forum-survey.html)

You can find the Pew Forum Survey Here. Pew Forum Survey (http://religions.pewforum.org/reports)

Classyt,
The bible says that we must be baptized to be saved.
Mark 16:16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Ahhh Fred... I like you and I hate to argue with you especially when you always say peace and Kindness.. lol. Tell you what. I disagree with you and I will just ask this... WHO is JESUS talking to? When you read the word you have to know who is speaking and

Who the writer is speaking TO. The Word is for us all but it isn't directly written to us. Jesus is talking to the Jews... Peter in Acts is talking to the Jews.. BOTH were before the Church was even started. THe church was still a mystery. IF you wanted know about salvation... go to Paul's epistles...

Peace, grace, kindess, love, and above ALL... learning to rightly divide the word of truth,

Tess

Jesus is Lord,

I hope you haven't changed your opinion.

We can say yes or no....WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME....you have a choice..we all have a choice.
Only to say no.

The Pew Forum Survey is on this exact topic. 2/3rds. of main stream Christianity has now changed their opinion about Jesus being the only way to Salvation. I wrote the following press release at prlog.

Pew Forum Survey (http://www.prlog.org/10086283-carnal-christians-exposed-in-pew-forum-survey.html)

You can find the Pew Forum Survey Here. Pew Forum Survey (http://religions.pewforum.org/reports)
That site needs a proofreader or two who knows grammar and spelling. It's too bad something like that spoils any information for someone who is searching.

Jesus is Lord,

I hope you haven't changed your opinion.

Hello classyT,

God bless you. He is my life, I am consumed by his presence. I will run this race by the power of his grace until the day they slay me. Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Amen.

classyT,
Please note that the book of Mark was written AFTER the church was started.
The book of Acts is all about The Church after Christ was crucified.
Note how many times The Church was mentioned in the New Testament.
There should be no doubt that Baptism is a necessity for salvation.
According to The Church that includes someone who intended to be baptized by died before it could be done.
So we disagree. That is not unusual.
There are over 30,000 different denominations which disagree with each other on some things.
Peace, kindness, and love,
Fred

Acura,

It is wrong to add anything to the Work on the cross... I believe Jesus said it best... IT IS FINISHED.

Of course one should be baptized after salvation but as far as a requirement... once again that places responsibility on man. I have never known anyone that could baptize themselves.
I don't understand your statement... "according to the Church". According to WHAT CHURCH?

My friend you can't pull verses out of context and no scripture is of private interrupertation. Paul lays salvation out in the book of Romans.. and baptism is not a requirement.

But we can agree to disagree. I have never changed anyone's mind on this subject and I have an idea that I won't be changing yours.

Tess

The Pew Forum Survey is on this exact topic. 2/3rds. of main stream Christianity has now changed their opinion about Jesus being the only way to Salvation. I wrote the following press release at prlog.

Pew Forum Survey (http://www.prlog.org/10086283-carnal-christians-exposed-in-pew-forum-survey.html)

You can find the Pew Forum Survey Here. Pew Forum Survey (http://religions.pewforum.org/reports)

Thanks for this post, Jesus-Is-Lord. It directly answers my question. Note that the first link goes to what is apparently your own webpage, and the second to the actual PEW survey, which is very interesting. I mention this because both links have the same wording but point to two different locations.

Thanks for this post, Jesus-Is-Lord. It directly answers my question. Note that the first link goes to what is apparently your own webpage, and the second to the actual PEW survey, which is very interesting. I mention this because both links have the same wording but point to two different locations.

WOOPS! I didn't notice that, sorry for the confusion guys.

classyT
I'm sorry but...
I DID NOT add anything to scripture which is CLEAR that baptize is needed for salvation.
The Church is the one Jesus founded.
It exised for many centuries before the reformation when other chirches cam into being.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Acura,

Are you basing your claim about Baptism being a necessity for Salvation solely on Mark 16:16?

I don't see how anyone can take that verse to mean that without Baptism, you will not be saved.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (ok so this may be true but it does not say ONLY those who believe and are baptzed); whoever does not believe will be condemned (ok, again this may be true but it doesn't say anything about whoever does not get baptized).

Acura,

I did not accuse you of adding anything to the scriptures. The Bible is my only and final authority. That is my only point. I do not wish to argue over baptisim. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine. :)

Acura,

One last thought.. there is much we do agree on! I like to concentrate on that. I think you are a smart guy and you do know the word. That is a BIG deal in Christendom today. ( I think) :)

Well here's a question!
Was the criminal that was crusified with Jesus baptized? I don't think so ! But our Lord Himself says to him that he will be together with Him in Paradise!Was he baptized? No . Was he saved? Yes ! Isn't that antiphatic?Let us ask ourselves from what are we saved if we believe and are baptized?? I think that we are all missing things here , so let's be quiet about this unless if someone here KNOWS !

Adam7gur,

I appreciate your comment and I agree whole heartly with you. But I have debated this with the best of them and I already KNOW the response. First they say... well Jesus hadn't died yet so techinically it didn't count. (ok, they have a point) THEN they say, and he was GOD so he could do what he wanted... NO! He will always stay true to his WORD... that is a LAME point.

It is CLEAR as CRYSTAL to me.. that salvation HAS NOTHING to do with Baptism... I think one SHOULD be baptized in obedience to the Lord. I think it should be after salvation and when one understands what it means. I believe that is what scripture teaches.. but I have gone round and round on this subject and I find.. it AIN"T worth it. I'm not going to argue something that is as plain as the nose on my face... if they want to add baptism to salvation.. let them. They are WRONG but I am sure I am wrong at times... funny I just can't figure out where. LOL that was a JOKE for all those that have NO SENSE OF HUMOR... :)

Paul lays salvation out in the book of Romans..and baptism is not a requirement.

Tess

Even Christ who was not blood only but by water..
1 John 5: 6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

We are to walk with Christ right? Follow His lead?

It is written that the trinity of three witness baptism.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one..

Would you deny the Holy Ghost?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The individual becomes a servant of righteousness when baptized. This means the individual begins the web of a garment in faith. This is a judgement in the final book of life. The water destroys evil that causes sin.
1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Essential to Salvation as a Servant
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Again do you walk in Christ?
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Acura,

Are you basing your claim about Baptism being a necessity for Salvation solely on Mark 16:16?

I don't see how anyone can take that verse to mean that without Baptism, you will not be saved.



There is a certainity in knowing double minded thought within the heart and mind of an individual is known by God and can not be masked. Choice to follow has to be clearly done and one's faith in Christ leads the way to walk in Him. So whether you choose to be obedent to the Father, to do what is written on all levels of righteousness, and without doubt, will be known by Christ on judgement day.

Note what is written and ask yourself, Does a child tell his father or brothers and sisters what will be ?
Truth is in listen to God, hearing His voice. There is none other to follow, or hear. May God's Will be done on earth as it is in heaven.. (John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.)

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Matthew 18:1-3 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Christ is the Light.. The light of the lamp which is the law.. Obedience to what Our Father has written and walk in the light...

Ok... look sndbay, I could go through every one... I know the scripture you all pull out and I have been through it a MILLION times. I'm not going down this path.. I believe you are wrong..

Quicky... Peter is talking to the JEWS... the church isn't even something he knows anything about.. not talking to the CHURCH.. the JEWS.. yes they needed to get baptized... the plan of salvation wasn't really revealed until Paul.

In Galatians... Paul is speaking of a SPIRITUAL baptism.. UGH!

You know Paul even says in one of his epistles that he can't remember who he baptized.. he knew he baptized a family and a few others but you know.. he couldn't recall how many!. if that was a requirement for salvation.. he wouldn't have mentioned it in that way. For example.. he wouldn't have said there was a few in this household that believed and a few here and there and as far as any one else.. you know I just don't recall...

OK.. Mark... Jesus is speaking.. he was talking to WHO? Oh yes the JEWS! They needed to be baptized in his name.. they were jews following the law that he came and fulfilled. Yes, when the JEWS got baptized back then.. it was a BIG DEAL! They were denouncing everything that had every been taught to them. Same as when Peter spoke to the 3000.

I have no clue what you are talking about in 1 John... that isn't about water baptism.. of that I can assure you!

I noticed you didn't pull out any verses about baptism in the book of Romans which explains salvation... faith plus nothing.

To require ME to do ANYTHING other than accept is an insult to my LORD. He DIED, HE ROSE again... He said "it is finished" I'm asked to receive this good news by faith. Then because I have received it.. get baptized because it is an outward showing of the inward change... nothing more.. nothing less. But it should be done... not because it is part of the plan of salvation but because the Lord ask us to.

Darn, I didn't mean to go on and on... we will agree to disagree.. once again.

Well here's a question!
Was the criminal that was crusified with Jesus baptized? I don't think so ! But our Lord Himself says to him that he will be together with Him in Paradise!Was he baptized? No . Was he saved? Yes ! Isn't that antiphatic?Let us ask ourselves from what are we saved if we believe and are baptized???I think that we are all missing things here , so let's be quiet about this unless if someone here KNOWS !

Who is the JUDGE ? we know the answer to that..

Who knows what is in the heart, and mind of each? we know the answer to that..

1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


Who now can say Baptism does not save us? The JUDGE and HIM alone.

Sndbay,

What do you meant who is the Judge? The LORD will never ever do anything against what he has already said to be true. If baptism is a requirement for salvation, then it is a requirement. He doesn't just excuse and wink at one and then place different standards on another. Nope.. that my friend will never happen. You shouldda gone with the "well, the Lord hadn't died yet, therefore he hadn't rose yet, therefore baptism isn't needed"... lol I would have gone with THAT argument if I were you. :)

You know Paul even says in one of his epistles that he can't remember who he baptized..he knew he baptized a family and a few others but you know..he couldn't recall how many!!!..if that was a requirement for salvation..he wouldn't have mentioned it in that way. for example..he wouldn't have said there was a few in this household that believed and a few here and there and as far as any one else..you know i just don't recall....

On that final day I do not put Paul as the JUDGE. AND perhaps you should read 1 John because it does example the [three in one] as witnesses, who will know who was baptized.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you understand what denial of the Holy Spirit would mean?


OK ..Mark...Jesus is speaking ..he was talking to WHO?? oh yes the JEWS! they needed to be baptized in his name..they were jews following the law that he came and fulfilled. Yes, when the JEWS got baptized back then ..it was a BIG DEAL! they were denouncing everything that had every been taught to them. same as when Peter spoke to the 3000.

I have no clue what you are talking about in 1 John....that isn't about water baptism..of that i can assure you!

I noticed you didn't pull out any verses about baptism in the book of Romans which explains salvation....faith plus nothing.

Psalms 17:4-5 Concerning the works of men, by the word of Thy lips, I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer. Hold up my goings in Thy paths, that my footsteps slip not.

Faith is to follow and believe both..Faith is by works!
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.



To require ME to do ANYTHING other than accept is an insult to my LORD. He DIED, HE ROSE again... He said "it is finished" I'm asked to recieve this good news by faith. Then because I have received it..get baptized because it is an outward showing of the inward change....nothing more..nothing less. But it should be done...not because it is part of the plan of salvation but because the Lord ask us to.

Darn, i didn't mean to go on and on...we will agree to disagree..once again.

Revelation 22:11-12 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Sndbay,

What do you meant who is the Judge? The LORD will never ever do anything against what he has already said to be true. If baptism is a requirement for salvation, then it is a requirement. He doesn't just excuse and wink at one and then place different standards on another. nope..that my friend will never happen. You shouldda gone with the "well, the Lord hadn't died yet, therefore he hadn't rose yet, therefore baptism isn't needed"...lol I would have gone with THAT arguement if i were you. :)

Make your judgement as you have.. That's the point of fact.. I do not judge because it is your choice. You own and are to be accountable to free will within the heart and mind...
What I do is hear Christ.. what His will is would be mine, because as a child of God..I try to be obedent to Him. And repent when I fail in His glory because it was His promise in belief of His worthyness.

Are you baptized? Or are you just leading everyone into believing they need not be baptized?

Sndbay,

I can see right now that you don't even read my posts.. you are too interested in what you have to say. If I am in error... you as a Christian has the right to tell me so.. fyi according to Paul's episltes... so this stuff about not judging me is kind of garbage. Sorry.

If you would have actually READ my post.. I said you should be baptized in obedience to Jesus but it is NOT a requirement for salvation.. I was baptized. So I guess you can JUDGE whether I am" leading everyone to believe they need not be baptized"... oh ye who does not judge.. lol ( sorry couldn't resist the hypocrisy)

Being baptized is a declaration to EVERYBODY , humans and spirits that a person is changing his / hers life from being a nonbeliever to a believer in Jesus . If I honour that declaration I am saved not because I declared it but because I kept the faith in Christ!! If I do not honour that declaration , will I be saved even if I was baptized? Don't make yourselves servants of words , but let the words be your servants!This whole thing reminds me the Sabbath and how the Jews tried to trick our Lord , but the Lord said that the man was not made for the Sabbath , but the Sabbath was made for the man!!

Sndbay,

I can see right now that you don't even read my posts..you are too interested in what you have to say. If I am in error... you as a Christian has the right to tell me so..fyi according to Paul's episltes...so this stuff about not judging me is kinda garbage. sorry.

if you would have actually READ my post..i said you should be baptized in obedience to Jesus but it is NOT a requirement for salvation.. I was baptized. so I guess you can JUDGE whether I am" leading everyone to believe they need not be baptized"...oh ye who does not judge..lol ( sorry couldn't resist the hypocrisy)

If you find my question, as a way for me to judge you, you are mistaken. You have twisted the original fact that the judgement was your determined value of baptism as you proclaim it to be. So by questioning what you proclaim as truth, others might also see you do believe in being baptized. That is a seed of truth...

sndbay,

I absolutely believe in being baptized! I just don't think someone who isn't won't be saved. I believe those on their deathbeds that haven't had the chance will be saved, I believe those that believe but are ignorant of baptism will be saved. I believe the stubborn that won't for whatever reason.. will be saved. There lies the difference.

By the way.. that second and third sentence you wrote... call me a blonde but duh.. I don't know what you are saying. I did however understand the first and the last.

Sndbay, the king james is easier to follow... LOL please don't get angry with me.. I just always struggle tying to understand you. I suppose it is my fault. Sorry :(

Sndbay,

I can see right now that you don't even read my posts..you are too interested in what you have to say. If I am in error... you as a Christian has the right to tell me so..fyi according to Paul's episltes...so this stuff about not judging me is kinda garbage. sorry.



This is a rude comment, when I have quoted scripture and asked a question. I had addressing your statement concerning Paul.

On that final day I do not put Paul as the JUDGE. AND perhaps you should read 1 John because it does example the [three in one] as witnesses, who will know who was baptized.
Followed with a question in scripture..
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you understand what denial of the Holy Spirit would mean?

I find my part in this conversation ends when you suggest what I offers is kinda garbage.

Sndbay,

All now don't go getting all mad at me. I never said Paul was the JUDGE. But he did say when a brother or sister was out of line they could be told. I guess you would have to JUDGE them in order to tell them they were wrong.

You know the Word says not to be easily offended... I really didn't mean it in a mean way... I just talk like I would in real life and it can come across badly when you read it.. thats is all. :) I do NOT think the stuff you offer is garbage... but I believe that we can tell judge one another as Christians and doctrine goes...

Forgiveness is apart of truth.. So can we communicate further with honest hearts and minds?

What is your take on Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you believe this gift of the Holy Spirit can be given up or should be missed?

I don't feel people that have lived their lives as choice in forgetting to do as God instructs can expected to be saved..There is an important part of being given FREE WILL.

There is a certainity in knowing double minded thought within the heart and mind of an individual is known by God and can not be masked. Choice to follow has to be clearly done and one's faith in Christ leads the way to walk in Him. So whether you choose to be obedent to the Father, to do what is written on all levels of righteousness, and without doubt, will be known by Christ on judgement day.

Note what is written and ask yourself, Does a child tell his father or brothers and sisters what will be ?
Truth is in listen to God, hearing His voice. There is none other to follow, or hear. May God's Will be done on earth as it is in heaven.. (John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.)

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Matthew 18:1-3 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Christ is the Light.. The light of the lamp which is the law.. Obedience to what Our Father has written and walk in the light...

sndbay... I don't understand what you are getting at here. You quoted my earlier post and yet didn't reply with anything that had anything to do with it.

If you are here to just spit out scripture to those that you feel need preaching to, then that is fine... have fun but I hope that one day you learn how futile that type of teaching/attempt at conversion is.

You might get a little further at bringing others to Christ by having real, serious discussions with them and addressing their questions, rather than avoiding the answers by trying to hammer typical dogma down their throats.

Back to the original point... I, too, see that Acura is very well versed in the Bible and am a bit surprised to hear him, or any other, believe that Baptism is a requirement of Salvation. I may be wrong and it actually may BE a requirement... but I have not heard any interpretation of that before.

I am curious to see what else would lead you, or anyone to that belief.

Act 8:34-38 "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

To me, this passage seems to recount that baptism is a byproduct OF salvation, not a requirement FOR salvation.

Excellent way of looking at it, Hicky ;)

sndbay... I don't understand what you are getting at here. You quoted my earlier post and yet didnt reply with anything that had anything to do with it.

I am curious to see what else would lead you, or anyone to that belief.


Posted #92


(ok, again this may be true but it doesnt say anything about whoever does not get baptized).

My intended post was to that which is written Word. The Word speaks of us being converted as a child of God, as being obedent to the written Word of Our Father. A child listens to their Father (commandment as well to honor your father, that which is what children should do) and many more scriptures that speak of obedience. Hearing the Word and following Jesus are works of faith in obedience. You said ok, then said it doesn't say anything about not baptised. Individual who would not are not obedent to the Word, and further posting have shown what they give up or choose of free will.

As for other posts I have already submitted was what is written concerning baptism.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Should a person deny this gift?

AND Each individual becomes a servant of righteousness when baptized. Meaning the individual begins the web of a garment in faith. This is a judgement in the final book of life. The water destroys evil that causes sin.

1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


Again do you walk in Christ or do you live life in your own way? I believe it is a choice in free will of accountability.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Act 8:34-38 "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

To me, this passage seems to recount that baptism is a byproduct OF salvation, not a requirement FOR salvation.

HistorianChick, to me this is an important fact in determine whom can be baptized. As many are baptized as infants where this scripture clearly stated "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." This teaching should be induced to those who elect to submit children unaware of what they receive or believe. The dedication of a child at birth is another discussion, and ends up neglected when baptism done at birth.

1 Peter 3:20-21 is the requirement..

Choice..

But wait a minute... You say that I Peter is THE requirement for salvation and that baptism is a part of and a necessity for salvation, right?

You are right when you say that I Peter 3:21 explains it.

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

To me, and this is only my interpretation, it is saying that baptism doesn't save us (because what IS salvation, but the washing of our sin-stained heart in the regenerating blood of Christ) "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" but "in answer of a good conscience toward God." It is the first choice we make (as you said, it's a choice, not an infant baptism) as a Christian. AS a Christian, AFTER the washing away of the filth of sin, i.e. salvation.

Forgiveness is apart of truth.. So can we communicate further with honest hearts and minds?

What is your take on Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you believe this gift of the Holy Spirit can be given up or should be missed?

I don't feel people that have lived their lives as choice in forgetting to do as God instructs can expected to be saved..There is an important part of being given FREE WILL.

I say this all the time but no one hears me... this is the MOST important thing you can do when reading the Word right after praying... UNDERSTAND WHO THE WRITER IS... WHY ARE THEY WRITING IT... WHO ARE THEY WRITING TOO! When you do that.. you are starting to rightly divide the Word of Truth that the Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy about.

OK... in Acts.. what is going on? Jesus had just died on the cross , rose and right before their eyes had gone back to the Father...

Now, Did Peter understand anything about the Church? Did he think for one second it was going to take another couple thousand years before the Lord returned to set up his Kingdom? NOPE! He hadn't a CLUE about the Church or the Period of Grace.

Now, Who is Peter addressing? Me? no.. you... no who is talking to? OH YEAH... the JEWS the ones that just had JESUS CRUCIFIED! WOW. So when he tells THEM repent and be baptized you best believe they needed to. They had just rejected their messiah! In doing that at that time in history was HUGE.. they were denouncing all they had KNOWN under the Jewish Law.

Fast forward to Paul Epistles... Read ROMANS. WHO IS PAUL TALKING TO? Me, and YOU... the Church! You aren't going to find baptism as a requirement.

The BIGEST MISTAKE that people make when reading the WORD is mixing it up... not understand the context.. mixing law with grace. It isn't hard to understand if you will stop and figure out who the writer is talking to , why they are talking. It ain't rocket science.

Original post by HistorianChick: But wait a minute... You say that I Peter is THE requirement for salvation and that baptism is a part of and a necessity for salvation, right?

You are right when you say that I Peter 3:21 explains it.

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

To me, and this is only my interpretation, it is saying that baptism doesn't save us (because what IS salvation, but the washing of our sin-stained heart in the regenerating blood of Christ) "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" but "in answer of a good conscience toward God." It is the first choice we make (as you said, it's a choice, not an infant baptism) as a Christian. AS a Christian, AFTER the washing away of the filth of sin, i.e. salvation.

You "agreed" with this...



sndbay agrees: Plus requirement continues in the three and "One".. Scripture holds stedfast to there being Our Father, Holy Spirit and Christ as One. It's Jesus baptism that is descriptive in noting as "One" 1st John 5:7

And, I like Pixie-Sticks. :) (lol... forgive my sarcastic humor... I like to be random, too!)

I'm sorry, but this statement seems like you're just pulling random thoughts out of your head. I don't understand how it pertains to the argument in question. Please, can you explain how this relates to the topic in hand?

Dr. J had a good point, if you address specific questions and arguments (as it were) in specific conversations, you may give more weight to your arguments, rather than changing the subject when you can't or don't want to address it.

I'm sorry, but this statement seems like you're just pulling random thoughts out of your head. I don't understand how it pertains to the argument in question. Please, can you explain how this relates to the topic in hand?

Dr. J had a good point, if you address specific questions and arguments (as it were) in specific conversations, you may give more weight to your arguments, rather than changing the subject when you can't or don't want to address it.


agrees: Plus requirement continues in the three and "One".. Scripture holds stedfast to there being Our Father, Holy Spirit and Christ as One. It's Jesus baptism that is descriptive in noting as "One" 1st John 5:7

It was a refer: of further ordained authority shown in scripture concerning Water/baptism.

Bear Withness in Heaven

1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Heaven 1. The Spirit bears witness
Because 2. The Sprit is Truth
For 3. there are three
The Father, The Word, The Holy Ghost = three in ONE

Bear Witness on Earth

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Does this in any way suggest that we are missing something without Water included? It already suggests not water along..

The BIGEST MISTAKE that people make when reading the WORD is mixing it up...not understand the context..mixing law with grace. It isn't hard to understand if you will stop and figure out who the writer is talking to, why they are talking. it ain't rocket science.

So tell me who and what is spoken of here?

Mal 3:16-17 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

And Here who does baptism save?
1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Well it was Jehova and he was speaking to the few little remnent of Jews that called upon his name. BUT this side of the cross, we can see that it is the LORD and that we are his jewels.

Well it was Jehova and he was speaking to the few little remnent of Jews that called upon his name. BUT this side of the cross, we can see that it is the LORD and that we are his jewels.

Yes them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon His name are His peculair treasure. Such as refer in Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.


And Here who does baptism save?

1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

It is spirtual, spirtual, spirtual... if you want to get techinical... those eight souls were never immersed so it wasn't even a picture of water baptism... Jesus is the ARK that is what SAVED them. By the way and I was SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise.. when? I believe Paul says after I BELIEVED... (not a word about baptism) Eph 1:13

And Peter isn't giving the plan of salvation there not at all.. put the verse into context. He is talking about Christ going to preach to the spirits in prison.

Sndby,
Yes the judge will be the one.
I wonder if he will ask this, "You say that you believe me, then why were you not baptized?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT
I do believe that baptism IS necessary for salvation.
I hope you have been baptized.
Fred

sndby,
Yes the judge will be the one.
I wonder if he will ask this, "You say that you believe me, then why were you not baptized?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Right Fred, it might not be just like that but something of that nature. Like we have been discussing about garments of white linen and attending the wedding. Do you think someone that neglected to be baptized will be naked because of the lack of knowledge? or cloth in whte line for their righteousness?

It is spirtual, spirtual, spirtual...if ya want to get techinical...those eight souls were never immersed so it wasn't even a picture of water baptism...Jesus is the ARK that is what SAVED them. by the way and I was SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise ..when? I believe Paul says after i BELIEVED...(not a word about baptism) Eph 1:13

And Peter isn't giving the plan of salvation there not at all..put the verse into context. He is talking about Christ going to preach to the spirits in prison.

In Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Noticed trusted after hearing word of truth... and gospel of salvation... That does mean who hold knowledge of the Will of God. And after you believe... that is the witness of the only allowance of baptism when you can say you believe as written in Acts 8:36-37.. you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise [/COLOR]( a gift refer: John 16:13)

Yet I disagree with you post on 1 Peter 3 .

It does simply imply baptism is in like figure to the flood a putting away of the filth of the flesh..

1 Peter 3:22 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

My dear Christian friends, as I watch this debate I am reminded of a servant of God by the name of Job. This man had three friends who by all rights were the top Biblical Scholars of their day.

These three men had expanded their minds through intense study of the Word of God but they were unable to comprehend the spiritual nature of the matter at hand. Oh, they knew the written Word as is evidenced by the words of their mouth, but they lacked one thing, spiritual understanding.

Spiritual understanding does not come through the expansion of the mind through learning, it comes only one way, through a relationship with the author, the Holy Spirit.

In ending I will simply ask, if Salvation is dependent upon water baptism why did Paul not know this?

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Jesus is Lord,

You know... I agree with you whole heartedly and I was reluncted to get in this debate. I have been here before and it is futal. I know better than to take the bait. Ugh.

Acura,

My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ asked me to get baptized so yes... sir, to answer your question, I have been baptized and I went understanding why I was being baptized. But not one thing in the act of baptism saved me. His shed blood on the cross did the work.

In Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Noticed trusted after hearing word of truth... and gospel of salvation... That does mean who hold knowledge of the Will of God. And after you believe... that is the witness of the only allowance of baptism when you can say you believe as written in Acts 8:36-37.. you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise [/COLOR]( a gift refer: John 16:13)

Yet I disagree with you post on 1 Peter 3 .

It does simply imply baptism is in like figure to the flood a putting away of the filth of the flesh..

1 Peter 3:22 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

You are twisting this to fit your baptism theory. The gospel of my salvation was laid out in Romans... It is by believing the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. AFTER I Believed this.. I was sealed... now it doesn't say after you BELIEVED and were baptized you were sealed. Just believed.

Incidentally did you see the verses that Jesus is lord listed... I especially like the one where Paul says he didn't come to baptize but to preach the gospel. That is a pretty darn bold statement to make when according you YOU baptism is a requirement. If this were true, he would have NEVER said such a thing... NEVER!

Once again SND, we will have to agree to disagree. I told Acura early I wasn't going to change his mind... and he wouldn't change mine. But I like a healthy debate as much as anyone. And I mean this... if I offended you with the kind of garbage statement.. please know I didn't intend to be mean. I was being flip but not unkind. :)

ClassyT,
I believe that baptism washes way sin, particularly the original sin we are born with.
That is why baptism is necessary for salvation.
I'm happy to hear that you were baptized.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Acura,

I am reminded of an old Sunday school song... What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. What can make me whole again.. nothing but the blood of Jesus. Oh precious is the flow that makes me white as snow... no other fount I know... nothing but the blood of Jesus.

... the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from ALL sin 1 John 1:7

what a savior! :)

classyT,
Yes, what a savior who would go through what he did and teach us by both word and example.
Fred

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Those people were baptized in the cloud and in the sea and don't think that they were not baptized in the name of Jesus or in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holly Spirit , because they were baptized IN THE CLOUD which is GOD , But with many of them God was not well pleased...
If even now someone thinks that salvation has to do with being baptized , then it's not because it is not clear in the Scriptures!

adam7gur,
I think it is clear in the gospels.
It is a sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ.
He set the example by being baptized.
He told His followers to go out into the world and baptize people and how to do it.
I'll go along with what Christ said.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Those people were baptized in the cloud and in the sea and don't think that they were not baptized in the name of Jesus or in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holly Spirit , because they were baptized IN THE CLOUD which is GOD , But with many of them God was not well pleased...
If even now someone thinks that salvation has to do with being baptized , then it's not because it is not clear in the Scriptures!

Adam7,

I appreciate your scripture and I agree with you! But trust me on this... you won't convience anyone that wants to believe it. I have had this debate since I was about 22. I REALLY looked into it because I thought perhaps they had a point. I am 47... I have studied and studied for the answer.. I have prayed.. I have read books... and have consulted the Bible... it is clear as crystal... Jesus said it best... IT IS FINISHED!

Acura,
Yes, Jesus was baptized! He wasn't baptized for the same reason! NO WAY!. it was all about the KINGDOM of GOD! Not about his death, burial and resurrection. Oh my golly, don't you know John the Baptist wasn't baptizing the way we do now? HELLO? Jesus hadn't died.. he hadn't risen? Not the same type of baptism AT ALL!

And I will challenge you that when Jesus was baptised, there is not a single Christian church that would accept a baptism done exactly like Jesus.

Since he was not baptised in the name of Jesus or /either in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

A baptism done by John would not be by church rules a valid baptism in today's churches,

Most would require Jesus to be baptised again to become a member.

The choice that I make of my heart, mind, and soul is to be a doer of the Word. Not just one scripture that is written but all that is written. Believing in the Truth of Our Father, The Word, and Spirit as ONE, whom all have witnessed. Your walk is your choice!

Refer:
John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness

James 1:22 But be ye [doers of the word], and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [His] resurrection

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
John 3: 5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water(woman) and of the Spirit (gift), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:21-22 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

SNDBAY,

I make the SAME choice too! I want to be a doer as well. I was baptized.. but it DID NOT save me. THE END!

Jesus also said "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." and yet doing so is not a requirement of salvation.

Or how about "forgive everybody of all their offenses against you" but yet doing so is not a REQUIREMENT for salvation.

"End disputes quickly."
"Let others see your good works."
"Do not swear oaths at all."
"Do not worry about your material needs."
"Judge not, lest ye be judged"
"When you fast, do it secretly, and not for show"

Shall I go on? All these things He said to do and yet none of them are requirement for salvation... sure they are things that should be done just as many things that one would expect out of a so-called"good person" but I don't see how you can relate baptism, or any of these things, as mandatory.

sndbay,
YES, you got that right.
Scripture repeatedly says that baptism IS necessary.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

DrJizzle,
BUT...
Scripture DOES repeatedly say that baptism IS a necessity.
Peace and kindness,
'Fred

sndbay,
YES, you got that right.
Scripture repeatedly says that baptism IS necessary.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

We agree Fred, how else would one rise as Christ was raised from the dead. To be baptized is to be put under cover(dead) and then born in a new life guided by the Spirit. Under God protection for all things are under Our Father.

refer:
I Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God says we are in jeopardy every hour, and thus new life in the Spirit will guide us as Jesus does protect us. Baptism gives you the (gift) of being dead, so you can rise to be with Our Father in heaven.

refer:
I Corinthains 15:29-30 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

Note: Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Instead: Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

From: I Corinthians 15:33-34

Arcura,

I have yet to see anywhere that actually says this. I have seen where it is mentioned as something that should be done but there is nothing to reflect that if it Isn't done, that one would not be saved.

Arcura,

I have yet to see anywhere that actually says this. I have seen where it is mentioned as something that should be done but there is nothing to reflect that if it ISNT done, that one would not be saved.
You are correct. Baptism is not required for salvation. Also, being baptized does not guarantee a place in heaven.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe [no mention of baptism] will be damned.

He who believes and likes chocolate will be saved. He who does not believe will be damned.

Is this statement ANY less true... and yet, would you take it to believe that liking chocolate is a requirement of being saved?

(I KNOW... this isn't WRITTEN... and I am not making an attempt at adding anything to the Bible... but humor me)

Then tell me how will you rise if you are not dead first as in the death of baptism offers new life under God?
I ask because the word tells also of that question.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [His] resurrection
___________________

Question written
refer:
I Corinthains 15:29-30 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him (John 3:36).

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life (John 5:24).




I can quote scripture, too. So there! :p

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him (John 3:36).

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life (John 5:24).


I can quote scripture, too. So there! :p

True but it doesn't show that you can answer the question I asked.. I did ask a question to what was refer.. Are you mocking the scripture or me with your remark?

I don't mean to mock neither the Word nor you.

My answer was within the scripture I posted.

"how will you rise if you are not dead first as in the death of baptism offers new life under God?"

Well because "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life"

That's why.


My perceived "mockery" was slighted more at myself because in all the years of religious discussions I have had here, I have rarely EVER, if ever at all, actually recited scripture. Inside joke, if you will.

That is your choice "Free Will" nothing makes you do what you hold as Free Will but you will be accountable to that Free Will.

I on the other hand back everything that I do believe by refer in God's Word. My choice, and I will agree to be accountable to that free will.

Can you see the difference? I believe my path stays as one with "Christ" because my free will is "His Will" by "The Word." It also always allows others to connect with "God's Word." Plus my path is in my heart and mind taken of choice to do God's Will.

The scripture you quoted: I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life (John 5:24).

Believing and hearing are two suggestions to doing obedience for Our Father. So in hearing His words, any word of God such as on baptism are you doing?
Yes, so the doer is not deceived in thinking he just hears, and he is a believer


Do you believe in baptism as death with Christ? And do you believe in Christ's death and resurrection? Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him (John 3:36).

Everything written makes a complete circle of meaning in hope, faith, and staying in the light.

And I could refer scripture..but I believe you know scripture

Wondergirl.
You are purposely distorting this passage... to fit what you WANT to believe.
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be damned.
Both belief and baptism are required for salvation.
The "And IS baptized" makes that clear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

wondergirl.
You are purposely distorting this passage....to fit what you WANT to believe.
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be damned.
Both belief and baptism are required for salvation.
The "And IS baptized" makes that clear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
He who does not believe will be damned.

Not being baptized will not damn anyone.
Thus, being baptized will not save anyone.

What if someone has been baptized, then rejects God? Is that person still saved and will go to heaven?

So the question naturally arises: What does this statement mean? And what does it mean when Luke tells us that, in response to Peter's exhortation to "save yourselves from this crooked generation," then they that received his word were baptized?

To answer this we must ask ourselves first what we mean by the word "saved." I am afraid we have a very wrong idea of salvation. All that most of us know about salvation is that we shall be saved from hell and into heaven; or alternatively, that we are saved from our sins to live henceforth a holy life. But we are wrong. In Scripture we find that salvation goes further than that. For it is concerned not so much with sin and hell, or holiness and heaven, but with something else.

We know that every good gift that God offers to us is given to meet and counter a contrasting evil. He gives us justification because there is condemnation. He gives us eternal life because there is death. He offers us forgiveness because there are sins. He brings us salvation-because of what? Justification is in terms of condemnation, heaven is in terms of hell, forgiveness is in relation to sins. Then to what is salvation related? Salvation, we shall see, is related to the cosmos, the world.
Satan is the personal enemy of Christ. He works through the flesh of man to produce this pattern of things on the earth in which we have all become involved; not one of us is exempt. And this whole cosmic pattern is peculiarly at odds with God the Father. I think we all know how the three dark forces, the world, the flesh and the devil, stand in opposition to the three divine persons. The flesh is ranged against the Holy Spirit as Paraclete, Satan himself against Christ Jesus as Lord, and the world against the Father as Creator.

What we are speaking of as the cosmos always stands opposed to God as Father and Originator. His was the eternal plan in creation hinted at in the words "It was very good," a plan toward which he has not ceased to work. From before the foundation of the world he had purposed in his heart to have on earth an order of which mankind would be the pinnacle and which should freely display the character of his Son. But Satan intervened. Using this earth as his springboard and man as his tool, he usurped God's creation to make of it instead something centered in himself and reflecting his own image. Thus this alien system of things was a direct challenge to the divine plan.
So today we are confronted by two worlds, two spheres of authority, having two totally different and opposed characters. For me now it is no mere matter of a future heaven and hell; it is a question of these two worlds today, and of whether I belong to an order of things of which Christ is sovereign Lord, or to an opposed order of things having Satan as its effective head.

Thus salvation is not so much a personal question of sins forgiven or of hell avoided. It is to be seen rather in terms of a system from which we come out. When I am saved, I make my exodus out of one whole world and my entry into another. I am saved now out of that whole organized realm which Satan has constructed in defiance of the purpose of God.

If that is the world, what then is salvation? Salvation means that I escape from that. I go out, I make an exit from that all-embracing cosmos. I belong no more to Satan's pattern of things. I set my heart on that upon which God's heart is set. I take as my goal his eternal purpose in Christ, and I step into that and am delivered from this.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. What Jesus said he plainly means. I take that step of faith: I believe and am baptized, and I come out a saved man. That is salvation. So never let us regard baptism as of small concern. Tremendous things hang upon it. It is no less a question than of two violently opposing worlds and of our translation from the one into the other.

Chapter 3 of 1 Peter. There the apostle tells us how "the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water" (verse 20). The water, he says, is a figure or likeness, or (as the R.V. margin reads) an antitype, of something else. "Which also in the antitype doth now save you, even baptism." So baptism, he reasons, saves us now. Clearly Peter believed in our salvation through baptism as firmly as he believed in Noah's salvation through water. Please remember, I am not saying regeneration, and I am not saying deliverance from hell or from sin. Understand clearly that we are talking here about salvation. It is not just a question of terms; it concerns our being fundamentally severed from today's world system.
There in Noah's day we find a wholly corrupt world. Created first by God, the earth had become corrupted by man's act on that day when he placed himself under Satan. Sin, once introduced, had developed and run riot, until even God's Holy Spirit cried Enough! Things had reached a state where they could never be remedied; they could only be judged and removed.
So God commanded Noah to build an ark, and to bring his family and the creatures into it, and then the flood came. By it they were "lifted up above the earth" upon waters that covered "all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven." Every living thing, both man and beast, perished and those only who rode the waters in the ark were saved. The significant thing here is not just that they escaped death by drowning. That is not the point. The real point for us is that they were the only people to come out from that corrupt system of things, that world under water. Personal life is the inevitable consequence of coming out, personal perdition of staying in, but salvation is the coming out itself, not the effect of it. Note this difference for it is a great one. Salvation is essentially a present exit from a doomed order which is Satan's.

Praise God, they came out! How? Through the waters. So today when believers are baptized they go symbolically through water, just as Noah passed in the ark through the waters of the flood. And this passage through water signifies their escape from the world, their exodus from the system of things that, with its prince, is under the divine sentence. May I say this especially to those who are being baptized today.' Please remember, you are not the only one who is in the water. As you step down into the water, a whole world goes down with you. When you come up, you come up in Christ, in the ark that rides the waves, but your world stays behind. For you, that world is submerged, drowned like Noah's, put to death in the death of Christ and never to be revived. It is by baptism that you declare this. "Lord, I leave my world behind. Thy Cross separates me from it for ever!"

Speaking figuratively, therefore, when you go through the waters of baptism everything belonging to the former system of things is cut off by those waters never to return. You alone emerge. For you it is a passage into another world, a world where you will find a dove and the fresh leaves of olive trees. You go out of the world that is under judgment, into a world that is marked by newness of divine life.

You ask me now whether it matters if we are not baptized. My only answer is that the Lord himself commanded it (Matt. 28:19). And it was a step from which he himself refused to be dissuaded (Matt. 3:13-15). Peter describes baptism as the appeal, or testimony, of a good conscience towards God (verse 21). A testimony is a declaration. So through this act you say something, you declare where you stand, perhaps without using words but certainly by what you do. Passing through the water you proclaim to the whole universe that you have left your world behind and have entered into something utterly new. That is salvation. You take a public stand where God has placed you in Christ.

This helps to explain why in Scripture we find passages concerning salvation which are hard to interpret if we relate salvation only to hell or to sin. It illumines, for instance, the apparently difficult words of Paul and Silas to the jailer at Philippi. The man asked, "What must I do to be saved?" What will your answer be? If you are a sound evangelical preacher in the present day, you will say with assurance, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." But Paul in fact added: "thou and thy house." Do you really mean to say, I can hear you exclaim, that if I believe on the Lord Jesus, both I and my family will be saved? Now once again we must be careful. Paul did not say, Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou and thy house will have eternal life. He said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house." Remember, he is concerned with a system of things, and with the jailer's repudiation of and exit from that system. When, as head of his family, that man makes the declaration that from that day forward he and his house are going to serve the Lord, and when that declaration becomes publicly known, even people passing through the street will point in the door and say, "They are Christian folk."

That is what it means to be saved. You declare that you belong to another system of things. People point to you and say, "Oh, yes, that is a Christian family; they belong to the Lord!" That is the salvation which the Lord desires for you, that by your public testimony you declare before God, "My world has gone; I am entering into another." May the Lord give us that kind of salvation, to find ourselves uprooted entire out of the old, doomed order of things and firmly planted in the new, divine one.

So, to recapitulate, we have here two worlds. On the one hand there is the world in Adam, held fast in bondage to Satan; on the other hand there is the new creation in Christ, the sphere of activity of God's Holy Spirit. How do you and I get out of the one sphere, Adam, into the other sphere, Christ? If you are uncertain how to answer that question, may I ask you another? How did you get into Adam in the first place? For the way of entry indicates the way out. You entered the sphere of Adam by being born into Adam's race. How then do you get out? Obviously by death. And how, in turn, do you enter the sphere of Christ? The answer is the same: by birth. The way of entry into the family of God is by new birth to a living hope, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (1 Pet. 1:3). Having become united with him by the likeness of his death, you are united with him also by the likeness of his resurrection (Rom. 6:5). Death puts an end to your relationship with the old world, and resurrection brings you into living touch with this new one.

Finally, what occupies the gap? What is the steppingstone between those two worlds? Is it not burial? "We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death" (Rom. 6:4). From one point of view there is a grim finality about those words "buried into death." My history in Adam has already been concluded in the death of Christ, so that when I walk away from that burial I can say I am a "finished" man. But I can say more, for, praise God, it is no less true that there is the other side. Since "Christ was raised from the dead," when I come out of the water and walk away, I may walk "in newness of life" (6:4).

This double outcome of the Cross is implied too in the preceding words of Romans 6:3. "Are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Here in a single sentence the two aspects of baptism are again hinted at. It is baptism into two things. First, we who believe were "baptized into his death." This is a tremendous fact, but is it all? Not by any means, for in the second place the same verse says that we were "baptized into Christ Jesus." A baptism into the death of Christ ends my relation with this world, but a baptism into Christ Jesus as a living Person, Head of a new race, opens up for me a new world of things altogether. Going into the water I simply act the whole thing out, affirming publicly that the "judgment of this world" became real to me from the day when the "lifted up" Son of man drew me to himself.

What a Gospel to preach to the whole creation!

Written by Watchman Nee

Wondergirl,
Again you miss the point.
It takes BOTH belief and baptism.
Belief alone does not wash away original sin we are stained with.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl,
Again you miss the point.
It takes BOTH belief and baptism.
Belief alone does not wash away original sin we are stained with.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Yes, it does. And you didn't answer my question.

Eph. 2:8,9 says, "By FAITH are you saved...." Baptism is not mentioned.

What saved the people from the OT? They were not baptized. Are you saying they were not saved? Hebrews 11 says they were. It says their FAITH saved them.

Wondergirl,

Yes I believe that it IS their faith that saved them. I believe the old testatment sacrifices covered their sins. On this side of the Cross, Christ blood WASHES our sins.

It is an INSULT to our LORD to add anything to salvation. But you will never convience anyone that wants to believe otherwise.

My goodness how messed up we are in christianity, all because we will not rightly divide the Word of God.

Wondergirl,
No, I do not say they the people of the OT were snot saved.
They had ritual baptizm even then to wash was sins.
They had their day of atonement.
They had faith yes.
They sacrifices in the temple that washed away their sins with animal blood.
It to faith do have them do the things that were required of them.
Faith alone did not save them. Even then a faith without works is dead just like today.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. What Jesus said he plainly means. I take that step of faith: I believe and am baptized, and I come out a saved man. That is salvation. So never let us regard baptism as of small concern. Tremendous things hang upon it. It is no less a question than of two violently opposing worlds and of our translation from the one into the other.

Agree.. and you have done a planting of seed well worth reading.I do hope that many read all that was posted.



Finally, what occupies the gap? What is the steppingstone between those two worlds? Is it not burial? "We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death" (Rom. 6:4). From one point of view there is a grim finality about those words "buried into death." My history in Adam has already been concluded in the death of Christ, so that when I walk away from that burial I can say I am a "finished" man. But I can say more, for, praise God, it is no less true that there is the other side. Since "Christ was raised from the dead," when I come out of the water and walk away, I may walk "in newness of life" (6:4).


And clearly one walking in newness of life in Christ. Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.




This double outcome of the Cross is implied too in the preceding words of Romans 6:3. "Are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Here in a single sentence the two aspects of baptism are again hinted at. It is baptism into two things. First, we who believe were "baptized into his death." This is a tremendous fact, but is it all? Not by any means, for in the second place the same verse says that we were "baptized into Christ Jesus." A baptism into the death of Christ ends my relation with this world, but a baptism into Christ Jesus as a living Person, Head of a new race, opens up for me a new world of things altogether. Going into the water I simply act the whole thing out, affirming publicly that the "judgment of this world" became real to me from the day when the "lifted up" Son of man drew me to himself.

Written by Watchman Nee

We follow Christ

I Corinthains 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?
I Corinthians 15:20-21 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

One that believes in Christ, must hold within the heart and mind an awareness to believe in the flesh and blood of Christ. "The Word" was made Flesh (John 1:14) all that was written .

~Believe

sndbay,
I am so glad that there are several here who believ what the bible says about the necessity of being baptized.
Baptism does great thins for us through the grace of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Or do you believe it was an ancient astronomical site.
I believe it was a sacred effort but the reason so is a big mystery.
See about it here at this site.
Stonehenge (http://www.britannia.com/history/h7.html)

:)Peace and kindness, :)
Fred

sndbay,
I am so glad that there are several here who believ what the bible says about the necessity of being baptized.
Baptism does great thins for us through the grace of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Yes Fred, many are walking double minded by not taking what is written as the Flesh of Christ. What is written in The Word is Truth, it is the Bread of The Lord's Supper that we take and eat. Saying it is not necessary when the "The Word" tells us to do, is contradiction of Truth or (not believing or doubting what is written) .. There is danger in being double minded. The Flesh/Bread is just as important as the Blood. I believe and trust in all that is written, and it is not for any to question. Praise God

Jeremiah 15:15-16 O LORD, Thou knowest: remember me, and visit me, and revenge me of my persecutors; take me not away in thy longsuffering: know that for Thy sake I have suffered rebuke. Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and Thy Word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by Thy Name, O LORD God of hosts. KJV

Yes Fred, many are walking double minded by not taking what is written as the Flesh of Christ. What is written in The Word is Truth, it is the Bread of The Lord's Supper that we take and eat. Saying it is not necessary when the "The Word" tells us to do, is contradiction of Truth or (not believing or doubting what is written) .. There is danger in being double minded. The Flesh/Bread is just as important as the Blood. I believe and trust in all that is written, and it is not for any to question. Praise God

Jeremiah 15:15-16 O LORD, Thou knowest: remember me, and visit me, and revenge me of my persecutors; take me not away in thy longsuffering: know that for Thy sake I have suffered rebuke. Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and Thy Word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by Thy Name, O LORD God of hosts. KJV

Hmm? Well I said it before and I will say it again... you don't have the market on truth! Although I would not go so far as to call you double minded... ( which does NOT apply here by the way) I would just prefer to say... you don't understand the scriptures. You may believe and trust all that is written.. but you err in understanding what is written. And if it is true that you believe ALL that is written is written directely to you, then there is a lot of contradictions in the word my friend. I KNOW there are NO contradictions.. when you rightley divide it... it all makes perfect sense.

Hmm? well i said it before and I will say it again...you don't have the market on truth! Although I would not go so far as to call you double minded...( which does NOT apply here by the way) I would just prefer to say....you don't understand the scriptures. You may believe and trust all that is written..but you err in understanding what is written. And if it is true that you believe ALL that is written is written directely to you, then there is alot of contradictions in the word my friend. I KNOW there are NO contradictions..when you rightley divide it...it all makes perfect sense.

You have shown in this thread posting #156 you changed your mind.. After all the patience shown to explain (not weary) yet patience shown to the rude comments and disbelieft to what is written you changed to agreed.

Comments on this post#156
classyT agrees: Whoo HOO! Got to love Watchman Nee!

sndbay
I see that you understand Scripture well on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

SND,

If You read Watchman Nee.. he is talking about two types of salvation.. READ IT. I never said you shouldn't be baptized.. I said it wasn't a requirement to get to heaven. I don't think he is clear as crystal in his writing there.. but that is what I take away from it. I could be wrong. And by the way... I said whoo hoo... because I happen to like Watchman Nee! That and only THAT is what I was talking about. I like watchman need.. so sue me... I'm NOT double minded.

I am NOT rude... fyi... I prefer to think I am FRANK. I like FRANK, CANDID people. Sorry if I come across rude.

sndbay
I see that you understand Scripture well on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred I am very thankful for what God has revealed to me through the Spirit. As I know you too are thankful for your strength in wisdom pretaining to The Word. And God has written to discern between right and wrong. ( I King 3:9 and Eze 44:23 )
We are not to judge souls but we discern right and wrong, clean and unclean.

We are told to Watch and Discern, how else does one avoid evil and sin?

Luke 12:56-57 [Ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

"The Word" Have a good Day Fred

classyT,
Thanks. I did have a good day.
Really a nice weekend up in the beautiful Montana mountains, cleaning up the mess left by a logging operation.
At my age and ability it is tough work, but even so I enjoy it and the nature God created.
Peace and kindness,
Fred