Hello! I have a wrought iron furniture and lighting design company based in Florence, Italy. We have a large project we're working on for the States, which includes several chandeliers, sconces and pendants.

Our client has asked us to get in touch with their electrician, who will be installing the pieces. I know that he told them that we should be using 16 gauge AWG on the chandeliers.

My partner has gotten copies of the documentation of the wires available to us here, which are supposed to be used on these pieces. Personally, I am not an electrical expert, but I'm really trying to understand the situation to make sure that everything is going to work just as it should. I should mention that our distributor is the largest supplier of international wiring in our area. Also, my partner has been designing lighting for many years, and the companies he has worked for in the past have also always used this supplier successfully.

The wires our supplier is giving us are 18 AWG. What is the difference between 18 AWG and 16 AWG?

Also, the papers say the standard application for this wiring is: "internal wiring of external interconnection of electronic equipment (such as desk-type calculator, dictation machines or X-ray equipment)." So is this also right for lighting?

One of the chandeliers has been built with 18 extensions, meaning it's going to hold 18 different bulbs. The average for the other chandeliers is about 8. We have decided not to use transformers on these pieces to avoid any complications between the Italy/US switch.

I have tried answering my questions through various sources online, but to no avail. In addition to my questions, can anyone recommend good sites on the subject?

This is really important, and I don't want to sound like an idiot to the electrician or send a piece that I'm not 100% sure about. It's also kind of urgent.

Many, many thanks in advance for helping me through this!

I believe you can use the 18, as many chandeliers I've bought in the US use 18, but I am not an expert on code. Wait for TK or Stan, etc to reply.

Okay, thank you.

I really need the help!

Someone should reply soon. I'm fairly certain that 18 is OK for internal wiring of fixtures as well as cords. However if your client is requesting 16, and is paying you for 16, you should use 16.

The difference is in the thickness of the wire. The smaller the number, the thicker the wire, and the more current it can carry safely.

We are very concerned with putting out optimum quality work every time. Most of our business comes from europe, but we do have clients around the world. We have used another company in the past, and they use the same distributor with whom we've put in the order. The client doesn't know anything about electrical systems. He spoke with his electrician, who wants to make sure that the wires we will be using are right, specifically because european wires and currents are different from those used in the US. He talked about 16 AWG to our client for the chandeliers, and I'm preparing an email with our information for the electrician. Our distributor has given us 18 AWG for the purpose we specified.

My partner has now shown me two different wires. I've been told that the lighter of the two is what goes inside the chandelier, and that it gets attached to the 18 AWG. This is the one that's supposed to get connected to the existing electrical system through the ceiling. The only thing is that the wire that's supposed to be the 16 AWG doesn't have 16 AWG written on it. The paperwork makes me think that it may be another kind of 18 AWG too. Does this sound right to you?

In the meantime, thank you for telling me what you know. I really hope someone can help me to resolve these questions!

The insulation rating is as much important as the size, If you go 16 Gauge, you can't go wrong, if you go 18 gauge, they may think you are skimping, or tyying yo save a buck.

Please look at my previous posts. I don't know anything about the actual difference in quality between the two. I don't know anything about this kind of wire, period.

We want to make sure the wire is the right kind for the job. Their electrician I mentioned has not seen any of the pieces, so I'm also curious to know why he would have mentioned 16 AWG. Is the difference between 16 and 18 AWG minimal or really significant?

No one is trying to save money on this project, or on any other project. I have this wire given to us by the distributor, and I'm trying to understand the situation. My partner is the one who has been in contact with the distributor. How much would the difference be between the two wires... a couple of bucks? I may be wrong, but I would be surprised if using the AWG would make it look like we were somehow going the economical route. If the experts think I'm wrong, please say so! I really want to understand the difference.

Written on the wire itself:

(UL) SPT-2 18AWGx2C VW-1 105[degrees]c E77975 wonderful CSA SPT-2 18AWGx2C FT2 105[degrees]c LL43774

Specification: Electrical & Physical Properties

Style: 105[degrees]C 300V FLEXIBLE CORD
Size: 20288 105[degrees]C 18 AWG X 2C

Item: 18 AWG X 2C
Rating temp voltage: 105[degrees]c 300V
Conductor resistance: 23.25 OHM/KM/20[degrees]C MAX.

Thanks for your input.

Help me please!

The 18 is probably fine, Internationally, it MAY need to be larger? Not trying to say using 18 is being cheap, may be fine, At 220/240 volts, bulbs will draw about half of what 120 would draw.
#16 may be overkill. Hopefully someone knowledgeable in international code will provide additional info. Good Luck.

SPT-2 is suitable for pendant or portable per table 400.4 (flexible cords and cables) of the NEC (national electric code). The 18AWG you were supplied can be used for up to 10 Amps per table 400.5(A).

For the chandeliers and sconces you will need to use a different wire. Suply some more info and maybe I can suggest some, what temperatures are normal where the fixtures are going to be used? Are they for outdoor use?

Now aren't you glad you asked?

Tev, What type of wire should he use?

There are a lot of options Strat. I'm not comfortable making a suggestion unless I have more information to base it on. Indoor or outdoor and what temps can be expected. I want to suggest TFN or TFFN but if it's to be used outdoors in a cold climate I wouldn't suggest either of those.

I'm waiting to hear from TK.

Hi, thanks. I'm a she, not a he. It's all for indoors. They're all high end, handmade wrought iron pieces.

Like I tried explaining earlier, I don't have any kind of extensive vocabulary when it comes to wires or electrical work. Since we are in italy, we won't have the same variety of american wires that I'm sure is available in the states.

Here's a basic list of some of the pieces. They're also being fitted for american bulbs. To avoid extra complications, we're not using transformers.

1 chandelier: 16 bulbs
4 chandeliers: 8 bulbs
1 chandelier: 5 bulbs
1 flush mount lighting fixture: 6 bulbs
5 single light sconces (various styles)
3 hanging pendants

What I am sure of is that the wires we have, which happen to be 18 AWG, are certified exclusive to the US. The main details of my questions run through the first posts. I really appreciate your help on this, so thank you!

You really want to use "fixture wire"

See Cords and Fixture Wires (http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_cords_fixture_wires/)

The minimum size is 18 which is good for 6 amps, 16 AWG is good for 8 amps.

Which means:

18 AWG, 6 A, P=6*120, 720 W max
16 AWG, 8 A, P=8*120, 960 Watts max

for the wire.

Now, if you parallel the combination, then you should be able to wirenut/crimp into a wire, like a white and black single properly rated conductor for a single connection to the ceiling box.

White should be connected to neutral or the screw part of the base. Black to hot or the center of the bulb socket.
Green should also be provided. I doubt anyone will complain if you use the wire with the green with a yellow stripe for ground.

I doubt many know the blue and brown colors. I would not use these for the US market.

You really want to use "fixture wire"

See Cords and Fixture Wires (http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_cords_fixture_wires/)

The minimum size is 18 which is good for 6 amps, 16 AWG is good for 8 amps.

Which means:

18 AWG, 6 A, P=6*120, 720 W max
16 AWG, 8 A, P=8*120, 960 Watts max

for the wire.

Now, if you parallel the combination, then you should be able to wirenut/crimp into a wire, like a white and black single properly rated conductor for a single connection to the ceiling box.

White should be connected to neutral or the screw part of the base. Black to hot or the center of the bulb socket.
Green should also be provided. I doubt anyone will complain if you use the wire with the green with a yellow stripe for ground.

I doubt many know the blue and brown colors. I would not use these for the US market.

Thanks for your help, but you totally, totally lost me. :( I'm not the one doing the wiring, but I'm the one communicating between the client and our electrician. My understanding is that once the pieces are wired, only one wire is left sticking out, and it's black. We do have another kind of wire, but that's not color coded either. Yes, we usually use the blue and brown wires, but since those are exclusive to europe, we won't be using those here.

Could I ask you to look over my earliest posts? I think they explain my question(s) best. Again, thank you!

If you tell us what wattage bulbs are going to be used in each fixture and how many then we can tell you what size wire is required.

You cannot use the SPT-2 cord that you were given for these fixtures, you can use any of the 32 types listed in NEC table 402.3 for fixture wire. I would go with TFFN but it may not be available from your supplier. If not then try TFN, TFF or TF.

If you tell us what wattage bulbs are going to be used in each fixture and how many then we can tell you what size wire is required.

You cannot use the SPT-2 cord that you were given for these fixtures, you can use any of the 32 types listed in NEC table 402.3 for fixture wire. I would go with TFFN but it may not be available from your supplier. If not then try TFN, TFF or TF.

I'm assuming the bulbs would be max 60, more likely to be used with 40 or 25 watt bulbs. Each of the bulbs gets its own wire. Then those wires are connected to a final wire that sticks out of the piece. Then that wire gets connected to the existing electrical system by their electrician.

Why wouldn't the wires we have work for the lighting?

Also, why would the distributor give them to us, knowing the purpose for which they are intended?

We had an electrician here look at them, and he seems to think they're what's used. Again, I want to be sure.

We haven't purchased the wire yet. We have been given samples and the paperwork that certifies it as proper for use in the united states. I have asked my partner to investigate to see what else, if anything, is available. Here, pieces are made for the international market all the time. We have also successfully made pieces for countries all over the world, from europe to russia to south america and on and on... why would this be the exception?

Sorry for the multiple quotes, it just seemed like it was the only way to address everything here without multiple posts.


why wouldn't the wires we have work for the lighting?

also, why would the distributor give them to us, knowing the purpose for which they are intended?

1.They would "work" but they wouldn't be up to code in the US.

2.Not all lighting is equal, the wire they suggest is listed in our code only for specific lighting uses. The fixtures you are creating are not one of those uses. The table lamps in my living room have cords made from SPT but I could not use that same wire for wiring a chandelier or sconce. Also, our code is updated and changed every 3 years. At one time that wire may have been acceptable for those uses but it isn't now.


we had an electrician here look at them, and he seems to think they're what's used. again, i want to be sure.

They very well may be what is used in other places for this application, but not in the US. Your supplier and electrician are incorrect when it comes to the United States, but you can't really expect them to know the requirements in every country.


we have been given samples and the paperwork that certifies it as proper for use in the united states.

It is proper for use in the US, just not for this application.


we have also successfully made pieces for countries all over the world, from europe to russia to south america and on and on... why would this be the exception?

Our minimum requirements are different than other countries. Our National Electric Code (NEC) is nearly 800 pages of minimum requirements for electrical work and the construction requirements of the materials used in the work, that is the book I am getting my information from. As for the exception part, all countries are different, this is just one way in which the US is.

Heh, forgot half the post


i'm assuming the bulbs would be max 60, more likely to be used with 40 or 25 watt bulbs. each of the bulbs gets its own wire. then those wires are connected to a final wire that sticks out of the piece. then that wire gets connected to the existing electrical system by their electrician.

So 16 bulbs at 60 watts each is 960 watts so you would need to use 16awg for the largest fixture. Assuming none of the fixtures will use more than 60 watt bulbs, all the other fixtures can be 18awg.

Not exactly. Or depends. Since it's likely that the bulbs will be wired in parallel (one to a cable) or each wire will see 60 W/120 V or about 0.5A. All of these wired together would connect to a larger wire. That wire should likely be no less than 16 AWG.

LAMP(BASE SOCKET) - 18 AWG *
LAMP(BASE SOCKET) - 18 AWG * * * * 16 AWG White
LAMP(BASE SOCKET) - 18 AWG *


LAMP(BASE Center) -18 AWG *
LAMP(BASE center) - 18 AWG * * * * 16 AWG black
LAMP(BASE center) - 18 AWG *


*******************************typically green Ground


Typically houses are wired with 14 AWG and sometimes 12 AWG.

No one uses 1000 W of lighting in a room unless this thing is HUGE.

My home Crystal Chadelier: 5 bulbs at 40 W each on a dimmer over dining room table.

120 W is usually plenty bright and that's about max for an average sized room. Many single fixtures have a maximum of 60 W for the lamp because of the enclosed globes.

Hanging lamp over kitchen table. 4 bulbs at 25 W each. Usually 2 are unscrewed part way so they are off.

FWIW (For What It's Worth) Incadescent lamps will be disapearing from the US

Thank you kindly. That was the most helpful advice so far

We see a lot of stuff like ceiling fans and lights wired with these Crimp Caps, here: Installation Electrical Supplies, Crimp Caps | TESSCO 800 472 7373 (http://www.tessco.com/products/displayProducts.do?groupId=620&subgroupId=16)

Although there are no specs, but wirenuts which you twist on and are reusable and both of these things typically say they will splice x wires of this AWG with say 1 of y size, etc.

This creates a strong connection that won't pull apart and is easy for the manufacturer to assemble, but it does make it difficult to replace items.

Not exactly. Or depends. Since it's likely that the bulbs will be wired in parallel (one to a cable) or each wire will see 60 W/120 V or about 0.5A. All of these wired together would connect to a larger wire. That wire should likely be no less than 16 AWG.

LAMP(BASE SOCKET) - 18 AWG *
LAMP(BASE SOCKET) - 18 AWG * * * * 16 AWG White
LAMP(BASE SOCKET) - 18 AWG *


LAMP(BASE Center) -18 AWG *
LAMP(BASE center) - 18 AWG * * * * 16 AWG black
LAMP(BASE center) - 18 AWG *


*******************************typically green Ground


Typically houses are wired with 14 AWG and sometimes 12 AWG.

No one uses 1000 W of lighting in a room unless this thing is HUGE.

My home Crystal Chadelier: 5 bulbs at 40 W each on a dimmer over dining room table.

120 W is usually plenty bright and that's about max for an average sized room. Many single fixtures have a maximum of 60 W for the lamp because of the enclosed globes.

Hanging lamp over kitchen table. 4 bulbs at 25 W each. Usually 2 are unscrewed part way so they are off.

FWIW (For What It's Worth) Incadescent lamps will be disapearing from the US

I really appreciate your help here, so thank you! Bear with me, because I want to have a very clear understanding of your explanations.

When you wrote "not exactly, or depends" exactly what part of tev's post were you referencing? Is the rest of tev's quote accurate?

Is the lamp-base-socket drawing a suggestion, the ideal, or the only option?

The sample wires we have are one solid color. They have two coated wires running parallel to each other. One of the samples, still with the two coated wires, is solid black. The other sample is solid clear with copper colored wire inside.

I seem to remember hearing someone say that europe always uses a ground wire, but that it's not the case in the US. Is that true?

It's for a private unit/condo in a luxury ski village. The largest room is large, but it's not totally enormous. The bulbs they'll be most likely to use will be 25 or up to 40 watts, but I would feel safer if the pieces could also handle 60 watt bulbs. This room will contain the largest chandelier (16 lights) in the living room part, a large chandelier (8 lights) over the dining room table, and 3 pendants in the kitchen. We're also doing a flush mounted chandelier in the entrance, which will have about 5 lights.

There are 8 light chandeliers in the bedrooms, there's another flush mounted chandelier in the corridor, and there are single light sconces in the bathrooms.

All of the chandeliers are going onto high quality dimmers.

We are a small but high-end furniture, lighting and décor studio. Everything is custom made and handmade in wrought iron or cold-shaped iron. By my partner, who is a master iron artisan and designer. Believe it or not, we did the largest chandelier with 16 lights to reduce the amount of light given, since they are being made to use regular bulbs. The original design, from which we have gotten a lot of business, uses 24 lights. It uses a combination of 25 and 10 watt halogen-style bulbs.

I know there have been many discussions regarding incandescent bulbs, and a couple of places are trying to phase them out. Unless we're asked to do otherwise, we are using them or the halogens.

From wikipedia:
"Many of these state efforts became moot when the federal Clean Energy Act of 2007 was signed into law on December 19, 2007. This legislation effectively banned (by January 2014) incandescent bulbs that produce 310 - 2600 lumens of light[citation needed]. Bulbs outside this range (roughly, light bulbs currently less than 40 Watts or more than 150 Watts) are exempt from the ban. Also exempt are several classes of specialty lights, including appliance lamps, "rough service" bulbs, 3-way, colored lamps, and plant lights."

The great majority of the pieces we do are like works of art, but they're also practical. The quality of light they give off is part of the whole effect. Fluorescents would be rather ugly. If incandescents get banned one day, I imagine they'd be replaced with bulbs that have the same sized base, right?

Needless to say, we're not a large manufacturer looking to send stockpiles of lighting to the states. This is a single commission to a private client. For my information, are the restrictions mentioned by tev required in the same way?

There is a lot here to go through, althou I did breeze through it.

No one has mentioned Underwriters Laboratories, or some other third party testing and certification.

Any electrical product sold for installation in the USA must be listed by a third party testing firm, UL being the most popular.

See Underwriters Laboratories Inc. (http://www.ul.com/)

The National Electric Code Section #410 VII-Construction of Luminaires applies here.

A sample fixture, or prototype, needs to be sent to a testing lab for testing and labeling.

Your product will then be listed and allowed to be sold and installed in the USA.

I will leave you to the other answers, as I believe your original question is to use either #18 or #16 wire ,in the fixture, and I see there is much discussion on that.

I believe that #18 can be used from each socket, and then splice the total wires from each socket onto one #16 pigtail, that will be ready for connectio not the building wire in the lighting outlet box.

Since a fixture socket wiring and connection pigtail must be rated to handle 90 Deg C, NEC Table 310.16 lists #18 wire of various insulations as being capable of handling 14 amps.

I don't see what wattage each socket will be rated for. If each is rated a max of 60 watts , at 18 total sockets will result in a 9 amp total load, so even the connection pigatils can be #18 wire, again, using insulation rated at 90 Deg C . I see the specs on the wire you have all exceed this requirement, so looks like you good to go with all #18 wire.

Just be sure to get your product tested, listed, and labeled before sale in the USA, otherwise, contractors such as myself will refuse to install your fixture.

Most good inspectors know about this issue, and check for listing of products they find installed in building.

One at a time - I lost a long post because undo doesn't work.


when you wrote "not exactly, or depends" exactly what part of tev's post were you referencing? Is the rest of tev's quote accurate?

Is the lamp-base-socket drawing a suggestion, the ideal, or the only option?

<snip>

I seem to remember hearing someone say that europe always uses a ground wire, but that it's not the case in the US. Is that true?



Tev's posts are accurate.

Depends - means the lamps can be compromized of any number of parallel segments with any number of lamps on each segment. I illustrated 3 lamps all coming together in one feed.

You could have 6 pairs of lamps coming together for one feed, so the wire only has to be rated to support one pair. The final connection needs to be rated for the total lamp current.

The lamp base drawing was basically supposed to illustrate that white connects to the screw portion of the socket and black to tip at the bottom to reduce shocks.

A ground wire needs to be provided for anything that isn't double insulated which an iron lamp will not be.

the sample wires we have are one solid color. They have two coated wires running parallel to each other. One of the samples, still with the two coated wires, is solid black. The other sample is solid clear with copper colored wire inside.


I think we may have determined that it's not suitable. Usually split pairs have a "marked" side. The marked side could be ribbed or clear or whatever. The "marked side" goes to neutral or white.

Halogens have reduced life when dimmed.

I would really like to thank you for helping me. I really appreciate it.


There is a lot here to go thru, althou I did breeze thru it.

No one has mentioned Underwriters Laboratories, or some other third party testing and certification.

Any electrical product sold for installation in the USA must be listed by a third party testing firm, UL being the most popular.

See Underwriters Laboratories Inc. (http://www.ul.com/)

The National Electric Code Section #410 VII-Construction of Luminaires applies here.

A sample fixture, or prototype, needs to be sent to a testing lab for testing and labeling.

Your product will then be listed and allowed to be sold and installed in the USA.

Just be sure to get your product tested, listed, and labeled before sale in the USA, otherwise, contractors such as myself will refuse to install your fixture.

Most good inspectors know about this issue, and check for listing of products they find installed in building.

This makes a lot of sense for manufacturers, but we're not a factory; we are a very small artisan studio. Each piece is one of a kind, and they fall between handmade artisan ironwork and artful lighting. My partner is a master iron artisan, and he has been handcrafting iron furniture, lighting and décor for over 25 years. Since they are all one of a kind, there's no such thing as a prototype for the pieces. Also, these pieces are not for sale by a department store or something. They're a handful of pieces made for a private client for their private condo. They also happen to be old family friends with a penchant for powerful places. They flew out to italy to choose what they wanted for the project.

Here's the list of all the lighting:
1 chandelier: 16 bulbs (I said 18 in the first post, but it's 16)
4 chandeliers: 8 bulbs
1 chandelier: 5 bulbs
1 flush mount lighting fixture: 6 bulbs
5 single light sconces (various styles)
3 hanging pendants

They asked me to contact their electrician, whom I was told has questions for us. That's a big part of why I posted; I want to make sure everything I have is right.


I will leave you to the other answers, as I beleive your original question is to use either #18 or #16 wire ,in the fixture, and I see there is much discussion on that.

I believe that #18 can be used from each socket, and then splice the total wires from each socket onto one #16 pigtail, that will be ready for connectio nto the building wire in the lighting outlet box.

Since a fixture socket wiring and connection pigtail must be rated to handle 90 Deg C, NEC Table 310.16 lists #18 wire of various insulations as being capable of handling 14 amps.

I dont see what wattage each socket will be rated for. If each is rated a max of 60 watts , at 18 total sockets will result in a 9 amp total load, so even the connection pigatils can be #18 wire, again, using insulation rated at 90 Deg C . I see the specs on the wire you have all exceed this requirement, so looks like you good to go with all #18 wire.

This was much clearer to me than some of the other posts. I don't know the technical jargon, especially for wiring things in the states. I am american, but I started my career over here. The method you described is more or less how the pieces are wired in our studio. We've been selling them for years and years wired like this, to tremendous success (using european wires). Yes, each would be rated a max of 60. But there will be more than enough light using 40 or 25 watt bulbs.

I hope I've understood what you said. It sounds like you're saying that it's fine to use 18awg for each socket and 18awg for the pigtail or 18awg for each socket and 16awg for the pigtail. That sounds perfect to me. There have been diverse posts on here telling me I can't use the 18awg I have been given. Is that correct? In your opinion, it needs to be a different kind of 18 or 16awg? If so, what is the exact name you recommend?

Although we usually use transformers, at least when using the halogen bulbs, we're not using transformers here because they'll be for regular bulbs.

This was posted earlier:
"So 16 bulbs at 60 watts each is 960 watts so you would need to use 16awg for the largest fixture. Assuming none of the fixtures will use more than 60 watt bulbs, all the other fixtures can be 18awg."

Is this correct? Or does what you wrote earlier apply to the largest piece too (i.e. 18awg and 18awg)?

Is is true that they require a ground wire? As I wrote earlier, someone told me that ground wires aren't used like they are in europe. Every single one of our european pieces are done with ground wire. What keepit said sounds more reasonable to me; if you concur, please say so.

Boy. If I'm honest, I'm still feeling a bit confused about some things. It seems that there are varying opinions about how the pieces are supposed to get handled, and I would think the answer would just be clear cut. I really liked your advice, and I really appreciate how you were able to explain things in a way I can understand. So thank you. I really am relying on your help here.

From keepit:
"FWIW (For What It's Worth) Incadescent lamps will be disapearing from the US. ... Halogens have reduced life when dimmed." lol, it sounds like you really want us to use fluorescent bulbs. As far as the fluorescent bulbs go that I know, they would make no sense at all on these pieces.

I'm attaching a couple of designs that were sold to a company by my partner, who made them. The pictures of them are terrible, but you can see how they use the halogens I've been talking about. The standing lamp is a good reference for it.

Again, we're using regular bulbs, not halogens, on the pieces for this client. Most of the lighting is classically styled, but I am including a picture of this chandelier to give you an idea of how the piece is made. The chandelier in the picture is also smaller, simpler and less refined than the design for this client, but the core idea is similar enough as far as the wiring goes.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/linnealand-albums-+linnealand+collection-picture57-floor-lamp.jpg
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/linnealand-albums-+linnealand+collection-picture58-contemporary-chandelier.jpg