One person in another thread was questioning the trinity, so I am starting a new thread here to discuss that topic.

Let's start with this. Who are the three persons mentioned in this passage:

Isa 48:16-17
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."

17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

My real problem with trinity is founded by the Biblical Principle written in I Corinthians 4:6 and Revelation 22:18.

One ultimate question is an issue of absolute assurance beyond doubt that there are ONLY three of Them. The issue arise from one of the biblical verse Revelation 4:5 which reads--

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

With that being quoted, how sure we are that neither of those seven are not part of the Godhead?

Just because the bible shows 3 active divine being doesn't necessarily mean there are only three of them. And just because the 7 Spirits were only mentioned several times doesn't really follow that they are not part of the Godhead. As we know, there are things not written in the bible.

My real problem with trinity is founded by the Biblical Principle written in I Corinthians 4:6 and Revelation 22:18.

And that is exactly why I DO believe in the trinity. I doubt that there is any doctrine spoken of more in the Bible than the nature of God and the truth of the trinity.


One ultimate question is an issue of absolute assurance beyond doubt that there are ONLY three of Them. The issue arise from one of the biblical verse Revelation 4:5 which reads--

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

I addressed that one in our other discussion. There are many spirits of God - the Holy angels are spirits of God because they have submitted themselves to God, but they are not God. If you disagree, then follow 1 Cor 4:6 and show me where that is written.

Scripture is quite clear that there is a difference when it speaks of the Holy Spirit (which is singular and spoken of as God), and these seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels. The Holy Spirit has many attributes that belong solely to God. For example, the Holy Spirit gives eternal life:

Ezek 37:13-14
14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' "
NKJV

The Holy Spirit participated in the act of creation. Only God can create:

Gen 1:1-3
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. To the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
NKJV

Those other spirits are spirits who are obedient to God, but nowhere does scripture give them attributes of being God.


Just because the bible shows 3 active divine being doesn't necessarily mean there are only three of them.

If you claim more, then show me where scripture says that there is another person who is God.


As we know, there are things not written in the bible.

I thought that you said that we should follow 1 Cor 4:6 and Rev 22:18, and now you appear to be saying that we should go by what is NOT written. Yes, there are things which are not written in scripture, but God say to go by what is written which means that He has given us all that we need to know in scripture.

I trust that you know that to claim someone to be God simply because scripture does not explicitly state that they are not is a defined logic fallacy. If you go through scripture from end to end, scripture will rarely state explicitly that individuals are not God, simply because there is only one God, and scripture has stated who God is. It does not need to go through and every time a new individual comes up, and state that they are not God because anyone who scripture does not indicate is God either through specific reference or attributes that only God has, we can say is not God.

By the way, I noted that you did not respond to my question in the original post for this thread. I am interested in your response.

The hard time I have following the trinity idea is the way some explained Jesus is God in the other question sounds to me just like the Jesus Only teaching. If somebody could explain the difference to me I think I could understand the trinity better. The only way I can really understand it is like a triune triangle with three points--one triangle --three points.

The hard time I have following the trinity idea is the way some explained Jesus is God in the other question sounds to me just like the Jesus Only teaching. If somebody could explain the difference to me I think I could understand the trinity better. The only way I can really understand it is like a triune triangle with three points--one triangle --three points.

The concept is difficult for us to comprehend because God is an infinite almighty being outside of time and space. We have no framework to understand such a being because He is so much greater than us, much greater than we are to an insect.

The best analogy that I can think of is to go to scripture and point out that we are made in the image of God. We are also being made of three parts, body, soul and spirit. Each of these are us - they are not someone else, and yet are distinctly different parts of us. Most people know us by seeing our body. And yet, if the body should die, we do not because the Spirit is yet fully us even after we die in our body. No analogy is perfect though because unlike God, our body, soul and spirit cannot act as distinct persons.

The Jesus only concept is false because we find that each person of the trinity has difference roles, and some other differences (i.e. both the Holy Spirit and the Son have been seen, but no one has seen the Father at any time).

And that is exactly why I DO believe in the trinity. I doubt that there is any doctrine spoken of more in the Bible than the nature of God and the truth of the trinity.

I addressed that one in our other discussion. There are many spirits of God - the Holy angels are spirits of God because they have submitted themselves to God, but they are not God. If you disagree, then follow 1 Cor 4:6 and show me where that is written.

Scripture is quite clear that there is a difference when it speaks of the Holy Spirit (which is singular and spoken of as God), and these seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels. The Holy Spirit has many attributes that belong solely to God. For example, the Holy Spirit gives eternal life:

Ezek 37:13-14
14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' "
NKJV

The Holy Spirit participated in the act of creation. Only God can create:

Gen 1:1-3
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. To the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
NKJV

Those other spirits are spirits who are obedient to God, but nowhere does scripture give them attributes of being God.
If that's the case, can you please show me biblical verse that certain angel was called the Spirit of God.


If you claim more, then show me where scripture says that there is another person who is God.
Nor can you prove there are no more.


I thought that you said that we should follow 1 Cor 4:6 and Rev 22:18, and now you appear to be saying that we should go by what is NOT written.
Of course not. As you can see I am not adding something. As you can see I am not labeling God something,He, Himself, did not say. Quoting what you said in the original post-- " Afterall, who knows God's nature better than God?" Then, why call God something He did not call Himself. I am not even calling them as Trinity, Decanity or Nonanity because the bible did not indicate "how many" They are. The issue is about the absolute certainty.


Yes, there are things which are not written in scripture, but God say to go by what is written which means that He has given us all that we need to know in scripture.
That's precisely my point. The bible DID NOT state that they are ONLY 3, then, why jump to the conclusion that they are only 3 just because we can read 3 active divine power?


I trust that you know that to claim someone to be God simply because scripture does not explicitly state that they are not is a defined logic fallacy. If you go through scripture from end to end, scripture will rarely state explicitly that individuals are not God, simply because there is only one God, and scripture has stated who God is. It does not need to go through and every time a new individual comes up, and state that they are not God because anyone who scripture does not indicate is God either through specific reference or attributes that only God has, we can say is not God.
And I agree, and it follows that to claim that They are ONLY Three simply because scripture shows 3 ACTIVE divine powers without the Bible indicating that They are ONLY 3 is a also logic fallacy.


By the way, I noted that you did not respond to my question in the original post for this thread. I am interested in your response.
I just assumed that it will be tackled here that's why I no longer respond to that. Third is already raised here. I think I do not have much issue about the first 2. Though I would like to comment, those are somehow less relevant to how this thread goes at this time.

If that's the case, can you please show me biblical verse that certain angel was called the Spirit of God.

No angel - where did you get that from?


Nor can you prove there are no more.

I did. Throughout scripture it says one only - the onus is on you to demonstrate from scripture that there are more.


That's precisely my point. The bible DID NOT state that they are ONLY 3, then, why jump to the conclusion that they are only 3 just because we can read 3 active divine power?

Again, we can get into scripture and discuss, but it seems difficult to get you to discuss scripture.

Please answer the original post in this thread.


I just assumed that it will be tackled here that's why I no longer respond to that.

You have avoided it right from the start and so far have refused to respond to the question raised at the start of this thread. Please respond to that question and then let's see where it heads. I offered you the opportunity to start the thread and you wouldn't, so since I started it, I chose to start it with that question. Now please answer the question or tell us that you cannot answer it.

If you are unwilling to discuss the OP, then we might as well get this thread closed.

Scripture is quite clear that there is a difference when it speaks of the Holy Spirit (which is singular and spoken of as God), and these seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels. The Holy Spirit has many attributes that belong solely to God. For example, the Holy Spirit gives eternal life:

Those other spirits are spirits who are obedient to God, but nowhere does scripture give them attributes of being God.

If you claim more, then show me where scripture says that there is another person who is God.


What I ask is that you look further in choice to this discussion..

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Seven horns are POWER..

An awareness in being a servant of God. Headed by the Holy Spirit that God puts forth as a servant to His Will. Holding a straight line as witness of "The Word that was sealed", "The Word that is God", and "The Word from the beginning".
The plummet mentioned in Zechariah, God's nature to show the straight line, up and down of The Word that the servant witnesses by the Holy Spirit Head to The Word and The Will of God: Watching and Caring For ..

Zechariah 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Zechariah 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? For they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

What I ask is that you look further in choice to this discussion..

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Seven horns are POWER..

An awareness in being a servant of God. Headed by the Holy Spirit that God puts forth as a servant to His Will. Holding a straight line as witness of "The Word that was sealed", "The Word that is God", and "The Word from the beginning".
The plummet mentioned in Zechariah, God's nature to show the straight line, up and down of The Word that the servant witnesses by the Holy Spirit Head to The Word and The Will of God: Watching and Caring For ..

Zechariah 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Zechariah 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.


What is your point?

So far no one has actually reponded to the OP.

Who are the three persons mentioned in this passage:

Isa 48:16-17
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."

17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

What is your point?

As a servant of God to do God's Will, the Holy Spirit offers the seven spirits. The love of Our Father watching, and caring for His children brought to us in Christ through the Holy Spirit to this day and forever.

1. wisdom
2. power
3. riches
4. strength
5. honor
6. glory
7. blessings

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

For the op, I don't know who it is, in the scripture. I don't even know if it's translated correctly, cause it switches gears so fast, whereas the other scripture there flows.

As for the trinity, as they call it, I know that a human can only do miracles through some supernatural power. I believe this to be god's spirit at work in that person. If we are connected to the power source, this power is able to flow through us.
The connectedness is based on god's will. God is the wielder of his power.

Jesus is the accepted sacrifice for our sins, because he is sinless. Jesus did his miracles through god's power. He was in total alignment with god's will, and some would say he is god.

This is where the trinity gets stepped on, because as soon as one says that jesus was doing god's will, some others would say that jesus isn't god. Regardless, god's will is getting done, through the sacrifice of his son, and by the resurrection through the spirit of god.

We are called on to receive god's spirit, and get connected to god's will also. It's about oneness, and one will isn't separated from itself.

As a servant of God to do God's Will, the Holy Spirit offers the seven spirits. The love of Our Father watching, and caring for His children brought to us in Christ through the Holy Spirit to this day and forever.

1. wisdom
2. power
3. riches
4. strength
5. honor
6. glory
7. blessings

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

This has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

Please deal with the question that I asked in the OP:

Who are the three persons mentioned in this passage:

Isa 48:16-17
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."

17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

for the op, I don't know who it is, in the scripture. I don't even know if it's translated correctly, cause it switches gears so fast, whereas the other scripture there flows.

Actually it flows very well, especially if you read it in the context of the surrounding text and chapters.

But I do appreciate your honesty in admitting that you don't know the answer.


as for the trinity, as they call it, I know that a human can only do miracles through some supernatural power. I believe this to be god's spirit at work in that person. If we are connected to the power source, this power is able to flow through us.
The connectedness is based on god's will. God is the wielder of his power.

We know that jesus is God, and that this was accepted without controversy amongst 1st century Christians:

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
NKJV


jesus is the accepted sacrifice for our sins, because he is sinless.

Which again proves that He is not just man, because all men have sinned:

Rom 3:23-24
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NKJV

Only God is without sin.


Jesus did his miracles through god's power. He was in total alignment with god's will, and some would say he is god.

And the scriptures would agree.


This is where the trinity gets stepped on, because as soon as one says that jesus was doing god's will, some others would say that jesus isn't god.

Jesus is God an always was God (Micah 5:2). He came to earth manifest in the flesh as a man, humbling Himself to submit Himself to the father as a man:

Phil 2:8-9
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
NKJV

Because only a perfect man could be the sacrifice on the cross for our sins. Therefore while on earth, He became our example by perfectly submitting Himself to the Father as we should.


regardless, god's will is getting done, through the sacrifice of his son, and by the resurrection through the spirit of god.

Yes.

No angel - where did you get that from?
You said "seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels". Can you give a passage saying these Seven Spirits of God is no different that angels?


I did. Throughout scripture it says one only - the onus is on you to demonstrate from scripture that there are more.
Now you're misleading. We're talking about persons here and not Godhood, right? There's no issue with them being one. Actually, the burden of proof is not mine because you're claiming They are Trinity. You only have to prove that there are ONLY three and the Seven Spirit of God are not part of God.


Again, we can get into scripture and discuss, but it seems difficult to get you to discuss scripture.

Please answer the original post in this thread.

You have avoided it right from the start and so far have refused to respond to the question raised at the start of this thread. Please respond to that question and then let's see where it heads. I offered you the opportunity to start the thread and you wouldn't, so since I started it, I chose to start it with that question. Now please answer the question or tell us that you cannot answer it.

If you are unwilling to discuss the OP, then we might as well get this thread closed
Now, that's unfair. I am not avoiding you question. I just thought you refer to your original question in previous thread (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/do-we-pray-jesus-god-262915-8.html). If you'll read the context of answer (which you cut off), you'll notice that I am referring to your original post in the previous thread.

Now, that I already see the question you wish me to answer, here's my answer:
There's God; and His Spirit (who sent) and the Redeemer (who is also God, who was sent)

...Actually it flows very well, especially if you read it in the context of the surrounding text and chapters.
But I do appreciate your honesty in admitting that you don't know the answer...

I did read it in the surrounding chapters, trying to understand its logic. I found the way it was translated as illogical. If I had the answer, I really could read it in context, and see how it's correct.

You said "seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels". Can you give a passage saying these Seven Spirits of God is no different that angels?

That is silly. First, I did not say that they were angels. You are claiming them to be God. The onus is on you to provide evidence that they are in fact God. Remember, you referenced the verse that says not to go beyond what is written. So let's see your validation for claiming the spirits to be God.


Now you're misleading. We're talking about persons here and not Godhood, right?

You said that Jesus and the Father were two different Gods. So maybe it is up to you to make yourself clear. Are you talking about multiple gods, or are you accepting the fact that the father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons, but one God.


There's no issue with them being one. Actually, the burden of proof is not mine because you're claiming They are Trinity. You only have to prove that there are ONLY three and the Seven Spirit of God are not part of God.

See, you are going around in circles. This discussion started because you said that the father and the Son were both God, but not the same God. Are you now backing off on that? If so let's move forward and deal with what scripture says about God.


Now, that I already see the question you wish me to answer, here's my answer:
There's God; and His Spirit (who sent) and the Redeemer (who is also God, who was sent)

God - now have you looked at the original languages? They are all YHWH. One and the same God.

i did read it in the surrounding chapters, trying to understand its logic. i found the way it was translated as illogical. if i had the answer, i really could read it in context, and see how it's correct.

If you wish to engage in a discussion, you have to do more than just say so. You have to actually discuss what the text says, and explain your position.

If you wish to engage in a discussion, you have to do more than just say so. You have to actually discuss what the text says, and explain your position.
Lol explain my position? What is yours already? You seem to know the answer already to your post, yet you are delaying in giving it.

Originally Posted by Criado:
There's God; and His Spirit (who sent) and the Redeemer (who is also God, who was sent)
Erratum: There's God; and His Spirit (who sent) and the one being sent (who from the time that it was, there He is). Based on the context, the one sent is not the redeemer. Sorry. My mistake.


That is silly. First, I did not say that they were angels. You are claiming them to be God. The onus is on you to provide evidence that they are in fact God. Remember, you referenced the verse that says not to go beyond what is written. So let's see your validation for claiming the spirits to be God.
It's settled, then. I have the burden of proof to provide evidence that they are part of God. AND you have the burden of proof that They are not. Of course, this will may be resolve as we go further. HOWEVER, it seemed that you're evading to provide proof for your previous statement "seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels".


You said that Jesus and the Father were two different Gods. So maybe it is up to you to make yourself clear. Are you talking about multiple gods, or are you accepting the fact that the father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons, but one God.
You're really misleading. Let me refresh you how these specific "sub-topic" started

You said:If you claim more, then show me where scripture says that there is another person who is God.

I said: Nor can you prove there are no more.

You said: I did. Throughout scripture it says one only - the onus is on you to demonstrate from scripture that there are more.

Now, am I not dealing with person from the start?


See, you are going around in circles. This discussion started because you said that the father and the Son were both God, but not the same God. Are you now backing off on that? If so let's move forward and deal with what scripture says about God.
What make you think I am backing off that. But I wonder why it is now brought here considering that it very evident that I am focusing THIS discussion to "numbers" even from the very beginning rather than the Godhood.

The trinity has 2 major principle:
1. God has ONLY 3 persons
2. They are the same God

If proven that either,
1. There is less than or greater than three person
2. They are not the same God

Then, the concept will crumble.

I prefer the first because it is less complex to discuss.


God - now have you looked at the original languages? They are all YHWH. One and the same God.
Here's what it says:

Isa 48:16-17
16 Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord YHWH and His RUACH
Have sent Me.

17 Thus says the YHWH, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
I am the YHWH your ELOHIM,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

I can't see "One and the same God" concept here (of course, I am NOT looking for verbatim). Can you please show it to me?

It's settled, then. I have the burden of proof to provide evidence that they are part of God. AND you have the burden of proof that They are not.

The burden of proof is entirely on you. You are the one who claimed that they were God. So far the evidence that you have given is that the Bible does not say that these 7 spirits are not God. But one does not prove something by silence. Indeed you even agreed that we are not to go beyond what is written, so the burden is on you.


Of course, this will may be resolve as we go further. HOWEVER, it seemed that you're evading to provide proof for your previous statement "seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels".

Again, if you claim that they are spoken of differently, then show us. I do not plan to go through the Bible verse by verse just to show you that every verse DOES NOT say something. That is silly. If you claim that scripture somewhere DOES say something, then out with it - show us!

Otherwise if you are going to play this game of making claims based upon what is NOT SAID, then this entire discussion is a waste of time.


[I]You said:If you claim more, then show me where scripture says that there is another person who is God.

Once again, you are arguing on the basis of what you say is silence. Since we are not go to go betyond what is written, that effectively defeats your argument.


What make you think I am backing off that.

Sigh - in one message you say that the Son and the Father are both God, but not the same God - thus 2 Gods. In another message you say there is only one God. Either you are backing off your first statement, or you are confused between whether there is one God or multiple Gods. But if you are clear on your position, then how do you expect the rest of us to understand what your position is? Or that your position appears to change with the streelight on the corner.


But I wonder why it is now brought here considering that it very evident that I am focusing THIS discussion to "numbers" even from the very beginning rather than the Godhood.

The trinity has 2 major principle:
1. God has ONLY 3 persons
2. They are the same God

If proven that either,
1. There is less than or greater than three person
2. They are not the same God

Then, the concept will crumble.

Rather than wasting our time with philosophy, please tell us what you position is, and get into God's word and show us why you believe that to be the case. To be honest, I don't have time to waste on word games.


I can't see "One and the same God" concept here (of course, I am NOT looking for verbatim). Can you please show it to me?

Please answer my question first and then we can discuss.

The burden of proof is entirely on you. You are the one who claimed that they were God. So far the evidence that you have given is that the Bible does not say that these 7 spirits are not God. But one does not prove something by silence. Indeed you even agreed that we are not to go beyond what is written, so the burden is on you.



Again, if you claim that they are spoken of differently, then show us. I do not plan to go through the Bible verse by verse just to show you that every verse DOES NOT say something. That is silly. If you claim that scripture somewhere DOES say something, then out with it - show us!

Otherwise if you are going to play this game of making claims based upon what is NOT SAID, then this entire discussion is a waste of time.



Once again, you are arguing on the basis of what you say is silence. Since we are not go to go betyond what is written, that effectively defeats your argument.

Sigh - in one message you say that the Son and the Father are both God, but not the same God - thus 2 Gods. In another message you say there is only one God. Either you are backing off your first statement, or you are confused between whether there is one God or multiple Gods. But if you are clear on your position, then how do you expect the rest of us to understand what your position is? Or that your position appears to change with the streelight on the corner.

Rather than wasting our time with philosophy, please tell us what you position is, and get into God's word and show us why you believe that to be the case. To be honest, I don't have time to waste on word games.
Sigh. I wish to comment on this but I'll opt not to to make this less complicated.


Please answer my question first and then we can discuss.
I thought I already answered your question. If I answered the wrong question, please tell which specific question you wish me to answer.

Isn't it that this is your question:

Who are the three persons mentioned in this passage?

Then I replied with:

There's God; and His Spirit (who sent) and the one being sent (who from the time that it was, there He is).

Then you said:

God - now have you looked at the original languages? They are all YHWH. One and the same God.

Then I said:

Here's what it says:

Isa 48:16-17
16 Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord YHWH and His RUACH
Have sent Me.

17 Thus says the YHWH, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
I am the YHWH your ELOHIM,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

I can't see "One and the same God" concept here (of course, I am NOT looking for verbatim). Can you please show it to me?

Didn't I answer the question?

Sent who? (lol evidence of things not seen) not seen here

Tj3,
In that passage only two are identified; the Lord God and His spirit.
Since the person speaking identified only as "me" is unidentified my name or title one must assume or go elsewhere for and answer to the question.
Personally I think that the person mentioned there as "me" is "The Word" of God who later is born of Mary and identified as "God is with us" also named Jesus.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura).

This has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

Please deal with the question that I asked in the OP:

Who are the three persons mentioned in this passage:

Isa 48:16-17
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."

17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and His Spirit, hath sent me.

This is in refer to Pent.(Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.) The Lord God. Adonai Jehovah and His Spirit, hath sent Me: or has sent both Me and His Spirit: the prophet, and His Spirit the inspirer of the message sent by Isaiah (Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,) Note the doctrine of Trinity.

Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

the Holy One of Israel (note 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.)

I can understand why the translators had such a headache translating
Isa 48:16.
Here's the closest I came to the gist of the verse in context:

Draw near and hear the hidden thing, spoken by the lord yhvh, that his spirit sent forth, to begin at the proper time.

Compared to:

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; from the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord Jehovah hath sent me, and his Spirit. Isa48:16

Didn't I answer the question?

In part. But you never said who was sent, and then when asked for clarification, all you did was put some words in Hebrew after I point out:

"God - now have you looked at the original languages? They are all YHWH. One and the same God."

So who is the one who is sent?
Do you accept that they are all YHWH and all are one and the same GOd?

Tj3,
In that passage only two are identified; the Lord God and His spirit.

Who is it that is sent? That is a third person because the Lord God and His Spirit sent whoever it is.


Since the person speaking identified only as "me" is unidentified my name or title one must assume or go elsewhere for and answer to the question.

The person speaking says who He is in verse 17.

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

Isn't that clear enough?


Personally I think that the person mentioned there as "me" is "The Word" of God who later is born of Mary and identified as "God is with us" also named Jesus.

Good. He did say that He was the Redeemer, so you don't have to "think" that this is true - He said it, so we KNOW that it is true. Further, He says that He is God, and He says that He is YHWH.

Tj3,
I think what I think, thank you.
I do think that the redeemer identified himself.
I do think that The Word is Jesus Christ.
Because of what I think I believe it.
I have done a lot of thinking in my life and because of that I am a Christian.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
I think what I think, thank you.
I do think that the redeemer identified himself.
I do think that The Word is Jesus Christ.
Because of what I think I believe it.
I have done a lot of thinking in my life and because of that I am a Christian.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

We cannot make what we think the standard, however, it is God's word alone which is the standard of truth.

Tj3,
I think and believe that Gods word is the truth.
What is WRONG with that?
Are you trying to tell me that I should not think?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

"God - now have you looked at the original languages?
Yes; I did.


They are all YHWH.
No. They're not. Look, the YHWH appeared 3 times in those 2 verses. But did not said that the God (who send), His Spirit (who also sent) and the one sent was called YHWH. The only one called YHWH here is the God (who sent).

The bolded words are from YHWH.
Isaiah 14:16 "and now the Lord GOD and His Spirit"
Isaiah 14:17 "saith the LORD, thy Redeemer"
Isaiah 14:17 "I am the LORD thy God"


One and the same God.
Based on my answer above, it's not.


So who is the one who is sent?
To be straight forward, it's Jesus Christ.


Do you accept that they are all YHWH and all are one and the same God?
Based again on the above, no.

Criado
That's an interesting post.
Thanks,
Fred

Tj3,
I think and believe that Gods word is the truth.
What is WRONG with that?

There is nothing wrong with that, but the problem comes when men think that their private interpretation is better than God's word.


Are you trying to tell me that I should not think?


Only to the extent that no man should think that his private interpretation is right, or that any man is infallible.

No. They're not. Look, the YHWH appeared 3 times in those 2 verses. But did not said that the God (who send), His Spirit (who also sent) and the one sent was called YHWH. The only one called YHWH here is the God (who sent).

Isa 48:16-17
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.

So, who is speaking? We find out in verse 17:

17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

It is the Lord God who is speaking. The word LORD here is YHWH, so YHWH / God is who is sent. And since we are told that it is the Redeemer, and we know that the Redeemer is Jesus, we know that Jesus is YHWH, and Jesus is God.

Who sent Jesus?

"And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."

Here we have two more persons. So the Lord God sent the Lord God (Jesus) and God's Spirit sent Jesus. Here the word GOD is the Hebrew name YHWH, which means that God the Father is also YHWH, and God's Spirit is also God, and thus is also YHWH.

Could these be more than one God? No!

Isa 45:14
And there is no other;
There is no other God.'"
NKJV

Mark 12:32-33
32 So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
NKJV

1 Tim 2:4-7
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle--I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying--a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
NKJV

Tj3,
You are right.
People are not infallible.
That includes you are your interpretations.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
You are right.
People are not infallible.
That includes you are your interpretations.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That is absolutely right. That is why I say that all of man's interpretations should be rejected, be they mine, yours, the pope's or anyone else's interpretations. The one and only right interpretation is God's and that is why scripture must interpret itself and why we must submit all our interpretations to what scripture says.

Tj3,
I read what you said with interest and thought.
You state the scripture must interpret itself.
Then why do you not allow that?
Many have pointed out to you several things the bible clearly says that you do not agree with such as that Mary IS the mother of God the Son.
You are not alone.
There are over 30,000 different denominations and interpretations of Holy Scripture.
It is no wonder that many people are confused about what Scripture really says.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
...It is no wonder that many people are confused about what Scripture really says...

Or about what scripture does not say. This thread is about a single verse which I believe is translated inaccurately. In this verse I only know of 2 persons of god, himself and his spirit.

cogs,
You made a good point there when you infer that some people are confused about things that the bible does not say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Isa 48:16-17
So, who is speaking? We find out in verse 17:

17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

It is the Lord God who is speaking. The word LORD here is YHWH, so YHWH / God is who is sent. And since we are told that it is the Redeemer, and we know that the Redeemer is Jesus, we know that Jesus is YHWH, and Jesus is God.
NKJV
The speaker is not the Redeemer. If you'll take the context from the 16, you'll see what it means.

The speaker said "Come near to Me, hear this:", this indicates as an herald. He's calling the recipient of the message to come near Him and hear his message.

The speaker introduce Himself and said " I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me"

Then, the speaker said "This is what the Lord, Your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel want to tell you--"I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. "

It does makes sense; He was sent to declare the proclamation of the Lord. This is in accordance to Biblical principle written in John 6:38.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. KJV

The speaker was sent to give the news and not to talk about Himself.

So, it doesn't make the Redeemer the speaker.

Criado
That's an interesting post.
Thanks,
Fred
Thanks Fred.

Is it about naming the one being sent? The supporting verses for them are: Proverbs 8:22-30;1 ; I Corinthians 1:24

Tj3,
I read what you said with interest and thought.
You state the scripture must interpret itself.
Then why do you not allow that?


Fred, if all you want to do is attack and lie about me, then I see no reason for you to be on the thread. The topic is the trinity.

or about what scripture does not say. this thread is about a single verse which i believe is translated inaccurately. in this verse i only know of 2 persons of god, himself and his spirit.

Actually, no. I chose this passage ( not a single verse), as a starting point. With others who have denied the doctrine of the trinity, I have often started in Genesis. There are many starting points because the trinity is spoken of throughout the Bible.

The speaker is not the Redeemer. If you'll take the context from the 16, you'll see what it means.

I believe Him when He says that He is.


The speaker said "Come near to Me, hear this:", this indicates as an herald. He's calling the recipient of the message to come near Him and hear his message.

Ok.


The speaker introduce Himself and said " I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me"

Yep.


Then, the speaker said "This is what the Lord, Your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel want to tell you--"I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. "

Note that you just altered what the Bible says. It does NOT say "Thisd is what...". It says:

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

INote that you just altered what the Bible says. It does NOT say "Thisd is what...". It says:

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV
Not really an alteration. I adopted some wording from the NIV-UK Version. And that's what the context conveyed.

It is very clear that Isaiah 48:17 is not a description for the "messenger" (the one sent).

As you may notice the first line, "Thus says the LORD,your Redeemer" is a more on conversive rather than narrative.

In addition, removing the verses number and writing it as it was originally written,will show continuous statement by the messenger rather than description about Himself.

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Not really an alteration. I adopted some wording from the NIV-UK Version. And that's whta the context conveyed.

The wording varies even from my NIV. But just the same if you read the wider context, it is still clear who is speaking. He identifies himself also in verse 12:

Isa 48:17
Listen to me, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
NIV

So we know that the NKJV translation is accurate. And we know who the first and last is:

Rev 1:17-18
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,[fn8] "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

As far as the trinity, yes, there is more evidence from scripture that god's power and being is dynamic. Since I'm flesh, I have to understand him in a way that makes sense to me. Jesus did say that before abraham was, I am. Jesus did miracles. Jesus was resurrected. Even from these three things, I can see god, his power through jesus, and his power over death. We never see god, and we never see his spirit. For that matter, we have never seen jesus. However, jesus said he would send god's spirit to us. This can be experienced through knowledge and miracles. So god's spirit is what I'm able to know. And scripture is what I'm able to read, and sometimes understand through his spirit in me. Regarding the trinity, god has done and will do whatever his dynamic spirit desires. I await his orders, and read the scripture he has preserved.

we never see god,

We never see the father.


And we never see his spirit.

Not true.

John 1:32-33
32 And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.
NKJV


for that matter, we have never seen jesus.

Really? What Bible have you been reading. Jesus was seen in both the OT and NT.

We never see the father.
Not true.
Have you seen him?

John 1:32-33
32 And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.
NKJV
But you didn't see the dove.


Really? What Bible have you been reading. Jesus was seen in both the OT and NT.
But you haven't seen jesus, have you? My point was since we cannot see god, we have to take what we know of him, to experience him. Just read the rest of my previous post. And by the way, could you not read between the lines and understand what I was saying?

Why do some say that no one has seen God the Father when the bible says that Moses saw Him face to face and Abraham and his wife and others saw him when He dined with them and ate an entire fatted steer and much more.

Why do some say that no one has seen God the Father when the bible says that Moses saw Him face to face and Abraham and his wife and others saw him when He dined with them and ate an entire fatted steer and much more.?
Good question.

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers.
Jhn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

I think the point is not that we visualize god, which is based on the physical, but that we spiritually come into contact with his will.

the wording varies even from my NIV. But just the same if you read the wider context, it is still clear who is speaking. He identifies himself also in verse 12:

Isa 48:17
Listen to me, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
NIV

So we know that the NKJV translation is accurate. And we know who the first and last is:

Rev 1:17-18
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,[fn8] "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV
We have no problem as to who is the "the First and the Last". The question is who said this particular phrase below? Was it the speaker (the one sent)?

Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;

We have no problem as to who is the "the First and the Last". The question is who said this particular phrase below? Was it the speaker (the one sent)?

Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;

Read the whole context. It is the same person.

Why do some say that no one has seen God the Father when the bible says that Moses saw Him face to face and Abraham and his wife and others saw him when He dined with them and ate an entire fatted steer and much more.?

Does the Bible say that they saw God the Father? Or does it say that they saw God. Read again, Fred.

I believe it when Jesus says that no one but Him has seen the father.

John 6:46-47
46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
NKJV

Tj3,
That is a good answer.
Excellent even.
Congratulations.
Fred

Read the whole context. It is the same person.
Do you mean to say the speaker is the one who said this particular phrase? "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;"

Do you mean to say the speaker is the one who said this particular phrase? "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;"

That is what the text says, so yes.

That is what the text says, so yes.

Since you said that the speaker is the one that said the particular phrase "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" then it follows that He is not the Redeemer.

Here's a parallel verse:

Exodus 7:17 Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.

The red colored text is the speakers' words and he is talking about what the Lord said. And the blue text is what the Lord said.

Likewise,

Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

The red colored text is the speakers' words and He is talking about what the Lord said and not about Himself.

That makes the speaker not the Redeemer the speaker is talking about.

Crido,
It appears to me that the author is identifying who the Lord is who said the words in blue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Crido,
It appears to me that the author is identifying who the Lord is who said the words in blue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Hi Fred,

That's exactly what I mean; making the speaker not the Redeemer. Thank you for making it simpler.

I had coloring and color-identifying mistake lately. It's been edited now. I am very sorry if it confused you. But I am glad you got my point.

Since you said that the speaker is the one that said the particular phrase "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" then it follows that He is not the Redeemer.

You logic escapes me.


Likewise,

Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

The red colored text is the speakers' words and He is talking about what the Lord said and not about Himself.

That makes the speaker not the Redeemer the speaker is talking about.

I never thought that you were suggesting that that the speaker was says "Thus says the lord". That is a description portion of the test written by the person who penned the book of Isaiah to identify who the speaker was. But that changes nothing because having identified the speaker, the same identification given in verse 12, you are left with the speaker being Jesus.

You logic escapes me.
I think I should be the one who should tell you this. Read below.


I never thought that you were suggesting that that the speaker was says "Thus says the lord". That is a description portion of the test written by the person who penned the book of Isaiah to identify who the speaker was.
Now, you're changing declaration. If I am not mistaken, you are the one who confirm that the one who said "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" is the speaker. I even asked you to clear it to me TWICE and you said it is the speaker who said that phrase. (please refer to post #54 and #58). And now, you are saying it's the person who penned the book of Isaiah? Now, I am clueless about your stand.


But that changes nothing because having identified the speaker, the same identification given in verse 12, you are left with the speaker being Jesus.
It does change something, that makes the speaker, not the Redeemer.

Of course, I don't expect you to change your mind. Since this is now irreconcilable, I decided switch the issue based on what you previously pointed out, but then, since my time is running out ( I am bound to leave on Sunday, the latest, and don't know when I'll be back again), I just decided to laid out my final statement to give me the opportunity to give my insight regarding this since you already laid your points. But in order for me to do that, I need to ask you several questions in order for me to assess if we are agreeing on different concepts. Will you allow me to ask you several questions for that purpose?

Now, you're changing declaration. If I am not mistaken, you are the one who confirm that the one who said "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" is the speaker.

That is what scripture says - do you disagree?


I even asked you to clear it to me TWICE and you said it is the speaker who said that phrase. (please refer to post #54 and #58). And now, you are saying it's the person who penned the book of Isaiah? Now, I am clueless about your stand.

Let's not play games here. I did not think that you were suggesting that what is clearly a commentary was being spoken -I thought that you were referring that was the introduction to. So no, I am changing, and I do not think that trying to trip someone up on word games is debating the issue honestly.


It does change something, that makes the speaker, not the Redeemer.

That line does not make sense. It makes the speaker what?

I just decided to laid out my final statement to give me the opportunity to give my insight regarding this since you already laid your points.

That is the best way to debate an issue.


But in order for me to do that, I need to ask you several questions in order for me to assess if we are agreeing on different concepts. Will you allow me to ask you several questions for that purpose?

Truth does not depend upon my view. I have never found that playing "20 questions" gets us closer to what God is saying in his Word. What I have found is that if the person does not know the context of your questions (i.e. the point that you are leading to), the answer may be made against a different context, which may end up in further disclarity regarding the positions, and thus tends to lead to the same mis-understanding that we had above. If you have points to make, the best way is to make the point and provide your reasons for believing as you do.

That is what scripture says - do you disagree?
Precisely. That specific phrase is from "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" is the word of the speaker.

Now, I am very confused with what your stand really is: First, you said that the speaker tells that phrase (#54 and #58)

When I told you the parallelism, you told me: "I never thought that you were suggesting that that the speaker was says "Thus says the lord". That is a description portion of the test written by the person who penned the book of Isaiah to identify who the speaker was."

Now that I said "Now, you're changing declaration. If I am not mistaken, you are the one who confirm that the one who said "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" is the speaker"

Now you're telling me "That is what scripture says - do you disagree?"

And now I am the one playing games? Sigh.


That line does not make sense. It makes the speaker what?
--NOT makes the speaker the Redeemer.


BTW, I notice that you keep pusing on this line while ignoring the context. I notice that you won't even acknowledge that verse 12 provide additional validation as to who the speaker is.
What's verse 12 has something to do with it. Verse 12 is another supporting verse to tell Jesus is the speaker; the one sent. It is not an issue if He is Jesus or not. The issue here is who said the phrase "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" Is it the speaker or is He not?

First, you said it's the speaker; Second, you said it's the person who penned the book of Isaiah; Now, you said it's speaker again. This is driving me insane.

My question was clear and I don't know why you don't get it while Fred does.

Perhaps, I will not continue to the questions and statement anymore. I fear that after I laid my final statement, I was gone then. I don't want you to think I let you hanging and don't want to be questioned about that post. I also fear you'll give me different answers for a question again. So I guess, it ends here.

Regards,

Precisely. That specific phrase is from "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" is the word of the speaker.

That makes no sense. Like I said before, I cannot comprehend how you can possibly come to such a conclusion. It would defy the context of the chapter and indeed of the chapter and surrounding chapters. I note that you continue to ignore the context, and specifically the fact that there are other passages which identify who the speaker is.


Now, I am very confused with what your stand really is: First, you said that the speaker tells that phrase (#54 and #58)

I mis-understood what you were saying as I said before - perhaps you did not read my last post. The logic that you are using is so out of line with what the passage says that I could not imagine anyone even making a suggesting as you are now making.

So, no I am not changing anything. Read what I said at the start of this thread and throughout. And this has now been clarified twice with you. This is why I also don't agree to playing "20 questions" with you or others who ask questions for the sake of twisting the answer to be something else. Are you planning to play wordgames and word tricks or do you want a honest discussion?


What's verse 12 has something to do with it.

Same speaker speaking continuously and he identifies himself in verse 12 and verse 17 (and elsewhere).



BTW, I notice that you keep pushing on this line while ignoring the context. I notice that you won't even acknowledge that verse 12 provide additional validation as to who the speaker is.

Let's look at the wider context that you keep avoiding:

Isa 48:9-11
9 "For My name's sake I will defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.
NKJV

Now I presume that it is clear to you who is speaking. If you understand what "profane" means, you will understand that the opposite of it is "holy". Whose name is "holy"? Who refines us?

Isa 48:12-13
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
NKJV

I should hope that it abundantly clear from verse 12 who is speaking. I would find it hard to believe that anyone could miss who it is, but if you don't know, we can do a study of who the first and the last is, and who laid the foundations of the earth.

Isa 48:14-15
14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
NKJV

Note here, as in verse 16, the speaker refers to the lord, and yet identifies Himself as God by the authority that He claims. And this is still the one and the same speaker.

Now the passage in question.

Isa 48:16
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."
NKJV

Note that it is still the same speaker who identified Himself as God throughout this chapter. Verse 17 is a more convenient way to see who it is, but there is so much more in Chapter 48 which makes His identity undeniable.

And verse 17 makes it abundantly clear who it is in case there are still those who could not see it in the prior verses.

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

Criado,
Now Tj3 is confusing me also.
Fred

Criado,
Now Tj3 is confusing me also.
Fred

Fred, you surprise me. I thought that you believed in the trinity. Maybe you listened to Ronnie too much :p

Tj3,
I do believe in the trinity.
But your last several posts on what you claim that passage says confuses me for it looks like you are going one way then another.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
I do believe in the trinity.
But your last several posts on what you claim that passage says confuses me for it looks like you are going one way then another.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Then you need to read more carefully. I have said nothing different from the start. It was criado who mis-represented me.

Do you believe that the speaker is Jesus as the speaker claims?

Do you believe that it is God the Father and God that Holy Spirit that He says sent Him?

I have said nothing different from the start - check it out.

If you disagree with any of these statements, then I see why we have differences.

Tj3,
I have already told you what I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
I have already told you what I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

As I told you, Fred. But your last comments have me wondering.

Tj3,
It is Your posts that got me to wondering about you.
So we wonder about each other.
So be it.
LOL
Fred

Tj3,
It is Your posts that got me to wondering about you.
So we wonder about each other.
So be it.
LOL
Fred

Well Fred, as shown earlier in this thread, you make all sorts of accusations against me, so that does not bother me in the slightest. I, on the other hand, am trying to discuss doctrine and God's word.

Tj3,
It is Your posts that got me to wondering about you.
So we wonder about each other.
So be it.
LOL
Fred

Well Fred, as shown earlier in this thread, you make all sorts of false accusations against me and have for years, so that does not bother me in the slightest. I, on the other hand, am trying to discuss doctrine and God's word. So let's see if we can get back on track, shall we?

So once again, let's look at the wider context of this passage:

Isa 48:9-11
9 "For My name's sake I will defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.
NKJV

Now I presume that it is clear to you who is speaking. If you understand what "profane" means, you will understand that the opposite of it is "holy". Whose name is "holy"? Who refines us? Does scripture say that this is anyone but God?

Isa 48:12-13
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
NKJV

I should hope that it abundantly clear from verse 12 who is speaking. I would find it hard to believe that anyone could miss who it is, but if you don't know, we can do a study of who the first and the last is, and who laid the foundations of the earth.

Isa 48:14-15
14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
NKJV

Note here, as in verse 16, the speaker refers to the Lord, and yet identifies Himself as God by the authority that He claims. And this is still the one and the same speaker.

Now the passage in question.

Isa 48:16
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."
NKJV

Note that it is still the same speaker who identified Himself as God throughout this chapter. Verse 17 is a more convenient way to see who it is, but there is so much more in Chapter 48 which makes His identity undeniable.

And verse 17 makes it abundantly clear who it is in case there are still those who could not see it in the prior verses.

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

Here the speaker says that He is the Redeemer and we know who that is.

Do you agree or not? If not, please provide validation from scripture for your position, rather than personal attacks.

Tj3,
I made no accusations against you.
I asked a question that you never answered.
But that's OK.
I let it go.
I still pray for you.
Peace and kindness, Fred

Tj3,
I made no accusations against you.


Your memory is getting worse, Fred. You made false accusations even in this thread.


I asked a question that you never answered.

So you claim. Talking about questions that you won't answer, how about an answer to the question that I asked?

So once again, let's look at the wider context of this passage:

Isa 48:9-11
9 "For My name's sake I will defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.
NKJV

Now I presume that it is clear to you who is speaking. If you understand what "profane" means, you will understand that the opposite of it is "holy". Whose name is "holy"? Who refines us? Does scripture say that this is anyone but God?

Isa 48:12-13
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
NKJV

I should hope that it abundantly clear from verse 12 who is speaking. I would find it hard to believe that anyone could miss who it is, but if you don't know, we can do a study of who the first and the last is, and who laid the foundations of the earth.

Isa 48:14-15
14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
NKJV

Note here, as in verse 16, the speaker refers to the Lord, and yet identifies Himself as God by the authority that He claims. And this is still the one and the same speaker.

Now the passage in question.

Isa 48:16
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."
NKJV

Note that it is still the same speaker who identified Himself as God throughout this chapter. Verse 17 is a more convenient way to see who it is, but there is so much more in Chapter 48 which makes His identity undeniable.

And verse 17 makes it abundantly clear who it is in case there are still those who could not see it in the prior verses.

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

Here the speaker says that He is the Redeemer and we know who that is.

Do you agree or not? If not, please provide validation from scripture for your position, rather than personal attacks.

Tj3,
I do agree.
As I said before I have already told you what I believe.
And that has been several times on several different boards.
Here it is again in a nutshell called the Apostles' Creed.
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord.
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
He ascended into heaven,
He is seated at the right hand of the Father,
And he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
The holy catholic church,
The communion of saints,
The forgiveness of sins,
The resurrection of the body,
And the life everlasting.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
I do agree.


I am glad to see that you have finally clearly stated your view. That helps.

Tj3,
I do hope that you will continue to remember that and find no need to ask AGAIN.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
I do hope that you will continue to remember that and find no need to ask AGAIN.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, As long as you don't beat around the bush as you did initially, there is no need to ask again.

Another interesting example of two persons of the trinity is found here:

Gen 19:24-25
24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.
NKJV

The word "Lord" in each case is YHWH, so what it says is:

"Then YHWH rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from YHWH out of the heavens."

Two persons, one YHWH.

I'll never understand why people choose to ignore the doctrine of the trinity which is so clearly taught in scripture.

Tj3,
I also find it difficult to understand why so many people who claim to read the bible do not understand what the bible says and indicates about the three persons in one God trinity.
You do a very good job showing the many places the trinity is indicated.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I'll never understand why people choose to ignore the doctrine of the trinity which is so clearly taught in scripture.

This is a favorite of mine.. Without a doubt the three in ONE

1 John 5: 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE. KJV

sndbay,
That is also a favorite of mine along with the command of Jesus to go out into the world baptizing people in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
That is also a favorite of mine along with the command of Jesus to go out into the world baptizing people in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Both of those verses are good ones for Criado who thinks that there are many more persons in the Godhead.

Tj3.
Indeed!
Fred

I am back :) (and sadly for awhile again). It seems I did not missed much.

(Tj)
I am glad this thread is still open. I wish to comment your reply to my last reply but I prefer to be more straight forward since I have limited time.

Assuming for the sake of argument that the Jesus is the speaker, where's the spirit being YHWH?

(Sndbay)

1 John 5: 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE. KJV
Sadly, this is absent in Greek Manuscript. Assuming for the sake of argument that this does exist in the manuscript, there's no problem at all. The bible did not say they are the SAME.

In fact, there are "n" number of people in bible being called as ONE but are NOT the same entity/being.

(Tj)
I am glad this thread is still open. I wish to comment your reply to my last reply but I prefer to be more straight forward since i have limited time.

Assuming for the sake of argument that the Jesus is the speaker, where's the spirit being YHWH?

Well, let's think about this for a moment. If you spirit is your, then why would God's spirit not be God.

Criado,
I believe that The Spirit was ans is always with Jesus as also the Father.
After all, they ARE a trinity of one being.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Well, let's think about this for a moment. If you spirit is your, then why would God's spirit not be God.
If I have to follow this reasoning, what will make these Spirits not God as well? (Rev. 3:1; 4:5; 5:6)

BUT, actually, the focal point of my previous argument is not about the Godhood of the Spirit but about the sameness of the Spirit as YHWH.

Again, where can we find the Spirit as YHWH.

Criado,
I believe that The Spirit was ans is always with Jesus as also the Father.
After all, they ARE a trinity of one being.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I partly agree and mostly disagree.

If I have to follow this reasoning, what will make these Spirits not God as well? (Rev. 3:1; 4:5; 5:6)

BUT, actually, the focal point of my previous argument is not about the Godhood of the Spirit but about the sameness of the Spirit as YHWH.

Again, where can we find the Spirit as YHWH.

There is a difference. Saying that the spirits of "of" God does not mean that these spirits are HIS spirit. However that is what Is 48:16-17 says. Further, Is 48 says that God and His Spirit send Jesus, indicating that they act with equal authority over Jesus (who is also God). These 7 spirits are mentioned another time which you omitted:

Rev 1:4-5
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
NKJV

Note that these spirits are before (or in front of) the throne. They do not have the authority of God.

There is a difference. Saying that the spirits of "of" God does not mean that these spirits are HIS spirit.
So, do you mean that when bible speaks of "Spirit of God", it has no authority of God while when it says "His Spirit " , then, it has equal authority with Father?


However that is what Is 48:16-17 says. Further, Is 48 says that God and His Spirit send Jesus, indicating that they act with equal authority over Jesus (who is also God). These 7 spirits are mentioned another time which you omitted:
Does equal authority means sameness?


Rev 1:4-5
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
NKJV

Note that these spirits are before (or in front of) the throne. They do not have the authority of God.
What makes these spirits without authority of God? Is it because they are not ON the throne?

So, do you mean that when bible speaks of "Spirit of God", it has no authority of God while when it says "His Spirit " , then, it has equal authority with Father?

I'm saying that we need to look at the context and the specific references.


Does equal authority means sameness?

Not necessarily, but again look at the context. It is not just a spirit with equal authority - it is HIS spirit.


What makes these spirits without authority of God?

Already addressed.

Is this Spirit (mentioned in Isaiah) the same as the one sent in the Church as called the Comforter or the Holy Ghost?


Further, Is 48 says that God and His Spirit send Jesus, indicating that they act with equal authority over Jesus (who is also God).
Do you mean that the Father and His Spirit is greater than Jesus?

Criado,
Yes it is the same Holy Spirit.
None of the trinity is greater than the others.
They (all three) are equally God.
It can not be otherwise for The Holy Spirit emanates from the Father AND THE SON, and The Son is the eternal Word of God made flesh in the form of Jesus Christ.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Is this Spirit (mentioned in Isaiah) the same as the one sent in the Church as called the Comforter or the Holy Ghost?

Yes.


Do you mean that the Father and His Spirit is greater than Jesus?

No. There are different roles, but all are equal.

How come Jesus said that the one sent is not greater than one who sent (John 13:16).

Kindly reconcile with your claim that they are equal. Where can we find that Bible said that They are equal?

How come Jesus said that the one sent is not greater than one who sent (John 13:16).

The one sent IS the one who is sent.

Maybe you meant:

John 13:16
16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.
NKJV

This does not take away from their equality.


Kindly reconcile with your claim that they are equal. Where can we find that Bible said that They are equal?

I could write a book on it simply from scripture, and there have been books written addressing this point. But here are a couple of quotes for you:

Heb 1:8
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
NKJV

God calls Jesus God, and jesus claimed equality with God the Father.

Phil 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
NKJV

The one sent IS the one who is sent.
No; I am positive. It's the one sent is not greater than one who sent (John 13:16).


This does not take away from their equality.
I don't know what "greater than" means to you. Is it not inequality?



5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

If Father is the SAME as Jesus, how can God be simultaneously not claiming and claiming equality to Himself at the same time?

If Father is the same as Jesus, how can he be simultaneously greater and not greater than Himself?

It doesn't make sense.

If Father is the SAME as Jesus, how can God be simultaneously not claiming and claiming equality to Himself at the same time?

Huh? Where did God not claim equality to Himself?

Criado,
Jesus said it... John 10: 30. "I and the Father are one."
That means equal and since The Hply Spirit eminates from the Father and the Son The holy Spirit is equal.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

huh? Where did God not claim equality to Himself?
Just to refresh you; you said: God calls Jesus God, and jesus claimed equality with God the Father.

But since Jesus said "My Father is greater that I" this will appear that God is NOT claiming equality to Himself. This is tantamount of saying: "I am greater than myself; yet I am not greater than myself".

Criado,
Jesus said it....John 10: 30. "I and the Father are one."
That means equal and since The Hply Spirit eminates from the Father and the Son The holy Spirit is equal.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Sorry Fred but I think you are jumping into conclusion.

Just to refresh you; you said: God calls Jesus God, and jesus claimed equality with God the Father.

But since Jesus said "My Father is greater that I" this will appear that God is NOT claiming equality to Himself. This is tantamount of saying: "I am greater than myself; yet I am not greater than myself".

Ah, now I understand what you are getting at.

Unless you are self-employed, you have a boss. A common term to describe your boss is your superior. Does the fact that your boss is "superior" or "greater" than you mean that he is smarter? Stronger? Faster? Better looking? Does it mean that you are in no way his equal?

No, it does not carry that meaning. He may have more experience. He may have administrative skills that you do not have, but you may have far greater capabilities to contribute.

The trinity is made up of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Al;l are equal but have differing roles. In addition, the quote that you used comes from when Jesus came to earth as a man, and as a man had to be perfectly obedient as a man. To be a perfect man, He had to be fully submitted to the Father as any of us are supposed to be.

Phil 2:8
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
NKJV

If he had not submitted Himself to the father, He would not have been a perfect man and would not have been qualified as a the Messiah. But though He was submitted, and in a positional role the Father was greater, He did not cease being equal:

Phil 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
NKJV

Ah, now I understand what you are getting at.

Unless you are self-employed, you have a boss. A common term to describe your boss is your superior. Does the fact that your boss is "superior" or "greater" than you mean that he is smarter? Stronger? faster? better looking? Does it mean that you are in no way his equal?

No, it does not carry that meaning. He may have more experience. he may have administrative skills that you do not have, but you may have far greater capabilities to contribute.

The trinity is made up of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Al;l are equal but have differing roles. In addition, the quote that you used comes from when Jesus came to earth as a man, and as a man had to be perfectly obedient as a man. To be a perfect man, He had to be fully submitted to the Father as any of us are supposed to be.
[/I]
This is irrelevant. You are dealing with two persons in your example--the employee and the employer; BUT you are claiming that Jesus and Father is the same.

If Jesus is also Father what is to be summitted when He owns Himself?
If Jesus is also Father, I do not believe that is obedience. It is called self-serve as you only do your own desire. Obedience is doing the order of someone whether you like it or not.

When Jesus said " My Father is greater than I", do you agree that Jesus is greater than His Father?

Does EVERYTHING Father knows, Jesus knows?

ERRATUM: I mean do you agree that Father is greater than Jesus?

This is irrelevant. You are dealing with two persons in your example--the employee and the employer; BUT you are claiming that Jesus and Father is the same.

Jesus and the Father are two persons of the trinity. One God, three persons.


When Jesus said " My Father is greater than I", do you agree that Jesus is greater than His Father?

Answered in my last post.

Jesus and the Father are two persons of the trinity. One God, three persons.
BUT in your example, the employer and the employee are not the same entity.


Answered in my last post.
Sorry but I would like to hear a more explicit answer otherwise, I will think you're evading. It's just a matter of yes or no. Is it very difficult to type?

And Again,

When Jesus said " My Father is greater than I", do you agree that FAther is greater than Jesus?

Does EVERYTHING Father knows, Jesus knows?

BUT your in example, the employer and the employee are not the same entity.

Yep - and Jesus and the father are two distinct persons within the trinity.


Sorry but I would like to hear a more explicit answer otherwise, I will think you're evading. It's just a matter of yes or no. Is it very difficult to type?

Just asking me to answer the same question again gets you the same answer. If you want additional clarification, ask a question specific to that request.

Yep - and Jesus and the father are two distinct persons within the trinity.
I am talking about the irrelevance of your example compare to your claim that Father and Jesus are same. Anyway, just let it be if you can't get what I mean.


Just asking me to answer the same question again gets you the same answer. If you want additional clarification, ask a question specific to that request.
Clarification request you want? Clarification request you get? This is my clarification question: Is it a yes or a no?

I am talking about the irrelevance of your example compare to your claim that Father and Jesus are same.

I never said that Jesus and the father were the same person. Quite the contrary. I said many times that they are two distinct persons of the trinity.


Clarification request you want? Clarification request you get? This is my clarification question: Is it a yes or a no?

I don't see how that can be answered yes or no. You seem to be starting with a premise that I have never said nor agree with.

I never said that Jesus and the Father were the same person. Quite the contrary. I said many times that they are two distinct persons of the trinity.
I neither said you said it. I just said "the same". And that is not applicable to your example. Just to quote one line: Does the fact that your boss is "superior" or "greater" than you mean that he is smarter.

If Jesus is also the Father, it would appear: Does the fact that God is "superior" or "greater" than Himself mean that God is smarter?

It makes no sense.


You seem to be starting with a premise that I have never said nor agree with.
That's why I am asking.


I don't see how that can be answered yes or no. You seem to be starting with a premise that I have never said nor agree with.
I understand you... caught in between.

You cannot answer yes because you know I will ask you how come God is greater than Himself? And you answer no, you will blatantly defy Christ. This question can be properly answered only if they are separate entity and God.

I guess that's why you neither answering the question: Does EVERYTHING Father knows, Jesus knows?

I neither said you said it. I just said "the same". And that is not applicable to your example. Just to quote one line: Does the fact that your boss is "superior" or "greater" than you mean that he is smarter.

If Jesus is also the Father, it would appear: Does the fact that God is "superior" or "greater" than Himself mean that God is smarter?

It makes no sense.

What makes no sense to you?



I understand you... caught in between.

You cannot answer yes because you know I will ask you how come God is greater than Himself?

No, I just don't understand why you are having difficulty on this point.

Criado,
I must agree with Tj3.
The eternal word of God became man so that he personally could experience what being a human was like.
As such in a human body and acting as a human he saoid that the Father is greater than I as a human.
That does NOT mean that as the divine being of The Word that The Father is greater.
As an eternal divine being The Word id equal to the Father and The Holy Spirit for they all ARE One God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

You just agreed with Tj3. I'm scared. LOL ;)

Fred,

you just agreed with Tj3. I'm scared. LOL ;)

I think that you should be. Who knows, maybe next Akoue will agree with me sometime :eek:

classyT,
Over the years I have agreed with Tom (Tj3) many times anf he with me.
We do have differences and I don't expect that to change soon.
But that's OK. Tom is a friend of Jesus and any friend of Jesus is a friend of mine.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT,
Over the years I have agreed with Tom (Tj3) many times anf he with me.
We do have differences and I don't expect that to change soon.
But that's OK. Tom is a friend of Jesus and any friend of Jesus is a friend of mine.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Glad to hear you say that, Fred. It was not that long ago you said that I was going to hell. Even then I offered you my hand in friendship, and I do so once again.

I will never close that door.

classyT,
Over the years I have agreed with Tom (Tj3) many times anf he with me.
We do have differences and I don't expect that to change soon.
But that's OK. Tom is a friend of Jesus and any friend of Jesus is a friend of mine.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

I was teasing you a little.:p But you make a good point... I differ with MANY here... Tj3 has NEVER been one of them. When we don't agree on doctrine the important thing is our relationship with the Lord Jesus. Didn't the disciples go to the Lord and tell him there were other people going out and doing things in His name..?. the Lord certainly didn't rebuke them. We are either FOR the Lord or against him. I need to remember this myself because there have been a few people on this site that I wanted to punch in the nose... LOL! :D