I know God Exists. So why do people like Cred claim people like me dont KNOW we just Believe.


Originally Posted by arcura
... I KNOW God exists. He proved that to me. It is far more than just belief.

Originally Posted By Cred. Dear Fred : You say you know, but you can not prove that to be so. Therefore I'll accept that as your BELIEF, not as reality.

For you your belief may be or seem your reality. For me and many other billion people it is not reality. For it to become that reality you have to prove it to be so by showing OSE.

Have a nice day, Fred !

I found this dialogue pretty interesting... Acura Said he Knows God exists and Cred. Insists that he does not know he just believes.

If I say I know God exists and someone claims I dont know, that just means that person BELIEVES I don't know unless they can provide OSE that I do not know God exists.

Its kind of like this.. I am wearing a red shirt right now. I know I am wearing a red shirt, now you can choose to believe or disbelieve me but the fact still remains that know I am wearing a red shirt. So if you choose to believe that I don't know I am wearing a red shirt, then that is just your BELIEF unless you can prove it to be true.
Same goes with God, I know without a doubt that God exists whether you BELIEVE I do or not. That's just a fact, I know God exists. ;)

A red shirt is different than something invisible.. jus' saying.

Some people need proof, like you believe what you see, you can't tell someone what to believe

You believe strongly in GodAlmighty, sass.

There is absolutely no independent proof(scriptures are not proof of anything to do with supernatural stuff) that GodAlmighty exists... there is visual proof that a red shirt exists.

Religion is called faith by everyone... not fact.

The problem here is the mis-use of the meaning of the verb "to know".

So let's start defining what is meant / not meant with "TO KNOW" in this respect.
Sassy : you and Fred mean with "to know" that it is a reality, not that it is just your personal perception. In this specific case the unsupported claim that "God" exists.
But the existence of "God" has NEVER been a reality, because it is based on BELIEF. So the use of the verb "to know" here is incorrect.

I will be the last one to state that you may not BELIEVE that "God" exists.
Fine with me : BELIEVE whatever you like, but expect opposition from me, when you declare what you BELIEVE - like the existence of "God" - a fact beyond debate and/or argument.

It is rather funny to see that people like Sassy - who has the habit of attacking real science and the "scientific method" (and even Scientific Theories) on a regular basis on extremely minor and/or often irrelevant arguments - get totally upset and start lamenting when someone addresses the TOTAL LACK OF EVEN ONE SINGLE IOTA OF OBJECTIVE SUPPORTIVE EVIDENCE for the many dogmatic religious claims, which Sassy herself (and Fred himself) BELIEVES to be "true", but insist at the same time that what they BELIEVE is reality by pronouncing what they BELIEVE as "knowing".

I have stated to Fred - long before Sassys opened this topic - that as far as I am concerned he may see that "knowing" as a personal reality, but in no-way it adds to what Fred BELIEVES any additional reality flavor (other than for Fred). The same goes for Sassy, and for anyone who BELIEVES something.

I have stated the following before : to use this "to know" trick is more or less an indication that whatever a person BELIEVES is not good enough anymore for him/her, and has therefore to be pronounced in a comparative higher degree, as if that BELIEF itself is inferior to "to know".

An interesting starting point for another discussion, I think!

Sassy (and Fred) can close this discussion quick and fast by stating that what they say "to know" is just their personal perception of what and how they BELIEVE, and does not mean that it is reality (other than for themselves). If they do, I see no reason to object to THAT meaning of the use of "to know".

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

Who cares what he says. You know God is real, and if he says you only believe then say OK and walk away. We all have our own beliefs and opinions but if you know something or someone is real, then don't let anyone's words take you away from what you want to believe in. And what you know is what you know and he shouldn't stray you away from Him (aka- God) Hopefully that made sense.

Just like any experience so closely intertwined with powerful emotions, religious faith feels like fact to those who experience emotions moving within. This is "emotional knowing" specific to the individual.

It is emotion that makes *faith* so powerful... tempts people to *believe* in the unseen.

I believe and know from experience but he has a huge sense of humor

This is in fact a real image I lost just the plain image


http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Team_Ramrod/Thelight.png

Easy on the goatse 70, you don't want to get banned. ;)

I think in this world we just need to respect and understand we all have different views and beliefs, mainly because we have all walked different paths. I have faith and it is personal to me and I wouldn't expect anyone to understand that. Just all be happy in your lives.

No matter how many people answer this post, we're all going to have different views. Isn't our culture make us who we are today? Isn't what we believe in make paths for us to follow? Were all going to have views no matter what

The problem here is the mis-use of the meaning of the verb "to know".

So let's start defining what is meant / not meant with "TO KNOW" in this respect.
Sassy : you and Fred mean with "to know" that it is a reality, not that it is just your personal perception. In this specific case the unsupported claim that "God" exists.
But the existence of "God" has NEVER been a reality, because it is based on BELIEF. So the use of the verb "to know" here is incorrect.

Yes the existence of God has never been a reality to YOU. However it has been a reality to me and many other Christians. ;)




I will be the last one to state that you may not BELIEVE that "God" exists.
Fine with me : BELIEVE whatever you like, but expect opposition from me, when you declare what you BELIEVE - like the existence of "God" - a fact beyond debate and/or argument.

Just because you have not come to know God, does not mean I don't know Him.


It is rather funny to see that people like Sassy - who has the habit of attacking real science and the "scientific method" (and even Scientific Theories) on a regular basis on extremely minor and/or often irrelevant arguments - get totally upset and start lamenting when someone addresses the TOTAL LACK OF EVEN ONE SINGLE IOTA OF OBJECTIVE SUPPORTIVE EVIDENCE for the many dogmatic religious claims, which Sassy herself (and Fred himself) BELIEVES to be "true", but insist at the same time that what they BELIEVE is reality by pronouncing what they BELIEVE as "knowing".

Again your beliefs in a washed up mythical theory of evolution where a mouse shares a common ancestor with a palm tree is not science. It is a belief system in the guise of science.


I have stated to Fred - long before Sassys opened this topic - that as far as I am concerned he may see that "knowing" as a personal reality, but in no-way it adds to what Fred BELIEVES any additional reality flavor (other than for Fred). The same goes for Sassy, and for anyone who BELIEVES something.

Again Cred. These are just your BELIEFS, unless you can provide objective supported evidence that proves that I do not know God. ;)


I have stated the following before : to use this "to know" trick is more or less an indication that whatever a person BELIEVES is not good enough anymore for him/her, and has therefore to be pronounced in a comparative higher degree, as if that BELIEF itself is inferior to "to know".

You can argue until you are blue in the face that I do not know God but if you can not prove it, its all nothing but hot air subjective babble. :rolleyes:

All you skeptics need to do a little reading of fairly recent history. Find out what happened on Azusa Street in Los Angeles from 1904-1910.
I'll let you have the fun of looking it up. I only have dial-up and searching with that is a loooong process.

Actually Cred used to be a Christian in the past but has since fallen away and now he is a Humanist.

Cred old pal I actually have been kept awake nights thinking about how in the next world we will see each other not through a mirror, darkly, but face to face, but you will spend most of your time saying, "this isn't real. I must be dreaming"

Lord, I await the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come... but just don't let me and him be neighbors, then pleeeeeze

Admitting that you cannot scientifically prove that God exists does not take away from the level of belief you have in Him.

Stop taking it so personal.

To "Know God" is completely different than being able to say that you "know God exists".

I am not an atheist so don't give me any religious, dogmatic crap either.

It is just plain and simple fact.

It is that mentality that discredits religion in the first place. If you want to be heard, speak intelligently.

What sassy is saying is that they should have to disprove the existence of God to her, not the other way around.

How do you know the right god proved it to you?
By proving it to you didn't this god take away your free will to not worship him and if he can take away your free will why not prove it to all of us?
How do you know your not being fooled by some minor god?
Some god that wants to take you away from the truth?
If you say because you know, are you really so sure of yourself that you think you couldn't be fooled by a god even a minor one?
What about the other people who know there god exists and were told to do something completely different are they making it up?
Isn't it just as likely that there is no god and your believe is simply a by product of evolution and culture?

It's not valid, nor logical, to say God exists.. if not, then prove it.

You can't just assume everything is true until it is proven to NOT be true.

It is quite the opposite. You have to assume that nothing is true until it is proven. That is basic problem-solving.

If I said I know aliens exist, would you expect me to prove it, or would you take what I said as fact?

Of course not, because that would be ridiculous.

I believe in God, but I don't know without a doubt that he exists. I have no proof, therefore I cannot say with absolute certainty that He exists.

Sassy, you can "know" in your heart, but you can't claim that he does indeed exist to everyone. To you, yes, but others need evidence of that claim.

The bible isn't evidence, so you'll have to come up with something other than that to convince everyone of what you claim to know. Personal experiences aren't proof either, because they are only addressed to you.

If you had proof of Gods existence then it would be foolish for anyone to deny Him. No such evidence exists.

All you skeptics need to do a little reading of fairly recent history. Find out what happened on Azusa Street in Los Angeles from 1904-1910.
I'll let you have the fun of looking it up. I only have dial-up and searching with that is a loooong process.

Azusa Street Revival - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azusa_Street_Revival)
So a bunch of people got together and worship with a charismatic leader.

Read about this man
Jim Jones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones)
He had many people join him and worship god with him rich, poor, black, white. Same story slighty different out come. They all claim they knew god.

[QUOTE=michealb;1302742]How do you know the right god proved it to you?

Michealb, I don't know where you coppied this little questioniar from, but you have been sound like a broken record so I am going to answere your questions in the hopes that you move on from this. :rolleyes:

What do you mean the right God? I did not claim that "i know the right God" i just said i know God. Since i know God i know there is a God out there. Whether he is the "right" or the "wrong" God, its really irrelevant to the fact that I know a god/God is there.



By proving it to you didn't this god take away your free will to not worship him and if he can take away your free will why not prove it to all of us?

I don't follow the logic of the question but basically knowing God does not mean I have to worship him. I know people who know God but have chosen to have nothing to do with Him. That is their free will.


How do you know your not being fooled by some minor god?

Again, I do not possess absolute knowledge therefore I don't know... However, like I said, whether it is God himself or "a minor god", it is irrelevant to the fact that I know god/God who ever or what ever He may be.



Some god that wants to take you away from the truth?

:confused: is this a question or a statement. Please clarify.


If you say because you know, are you really so sure of yourself that you think you couldn't be fooled by a god even a minor one?

You are now just repeating yourself.. :rolleyes:


What about the other people who know there god exists and were told to do something completely different are they making it up?

Maybe not, maybe their god really did tell them something different. I don't know how many gods there are out there however there is only one God that is a reality to me.


Isn't it just as likely that there is no god and your believe is simply a by product of evolution and culture?

Telling me "there is no God", is like telling me there is "no George Bush". As much as I am certain I KNOW George Bush exists and is the president of the United States, is a much as I am certain I know God exists. So when you tell me there is no God, you sound as ludicrous to me as someone who would tell me Goerge Bush does not Exist.

The point is that you can't know god and if you do it invalidates your entire religion. The whole point is that you are suppose to believe. You can believe very strongly but you can't know. The reason you can't know is because one of the reasons that your religion gives for god not giving evidence is because if he did give evidence god's glory is so great that people would be forced to worship him and he doesn't want that because it would invalidate people's free will.

Also if you don't know if you know the right god what's the point? You might as well worship me, at least then you can prove your god exists to other people.

Wait a tick...

If you KNOW God exists, how can you question whether He is the Real God... or the Only God... or a Minor God... or the Right God??

So you are saying that, while you KNOW that God exists, you don't really know which God it is or even if He is the only God?

Also if you don't know if you know the right god whats the point? You might as well worship me, at least then you can prove your god exists to other people.

HAHAHAHAH

Now That's funny!

[QUOTE=Altenweg;1302815]If I said I know aliens exist, would you expect me to prove it, or would you take what I said as fact?

Of course not, because that would be ridiculous.

If someone says they know aliens exists you can not argue argue against that person unless you can prove that they don't exist.


I believe in God, but I don't know without a doubt that he exists. I have no proof, therefore I cannot say with absolute certainty that He exists.

Speak for yourself.


Sassy, you can "know" in your heart, but you can't claim that he does indeed exist to everyone. To you, yes, but others need evidence of that claim.

Yes that is precisely what I am saying. I know God exists but my inability to prove it to the world does not mean I don't know he exists.
I know on aug 18th at 10am I had 2 eggs, toast, bacon and pan cake. I have no way of proving that fact to the world, but the fact still remains.



The bible isn't evidence, so you'll have to come up with something other than that to convince everyone of what you claim to know. Personal experiences aren't proof either, because they are only addressed to you.

Lol.. don't get it twisted, I am not here to convince people or prove that God exists. All I am saying is I know God Exists and whether your believe me or not it does not change the reality that I know God. So unless you can prove that I don't know God.


If you had proof of Gods existence then it would be foolish for anyone to deny Him. No such evidence exists.

And you are absolutely right! However like I said I did not claim I can prove God exists. I just said I (personaly) KNOW God exists just like I KNOW I had 2 eggs with bacon on 18th despite my inabilty to prove it. ;)

Also if you don't know if you know the right god whats the point? You might as well worship me, at least then you can prove your god exists to other people.


That is where Faith and belief comes in. I know God and that is a fact. I believe and have faith that the God I know is the "right" one. But like I said if it turns out he is NOT the "right" one, the fact still remains that I know HIM who ever he is. :D

Wait a tick...

If you KNOW God exists, how can you question whether or not He is the Real God... or the Only God... or a Minor God... or the Right God????

So you are saying that, while you KNOW that God exists, you dont really know which God it is or even if He is the only God?


Yes, that right. I have FAITH that he is the Right God but I can not claim to KNOW he is the right God and the only God, because for me to KNOW that with certainty I would have to be omniscience and possess absolute knowledge of everything in the Universe and beyond.

Altenweg,I believe in God, but I don't know without a doubt that he exists. I have no proof, therefore I cannot say with absolute certainty that He exists.


Sassy,Speak for yourself

I was, or wasn't that evident when I said, I believe?


Yes that is precisely what I am saying. I know God exists but my inability to prove it to the world does not mean I don't know he exists.
I know on aug 18th at 10am I had 2 eggs, toast, bacon and pan cake. I have no way of proving that fact to the world, but the fact still remains.

It would be relatively simple to prove that you had eggs, toast, bacon and a pancake. Stomach contents can be analyzed, pictures of you eating with a time stamped camera, many other ways as well. Proving Gods existence is much harder, otherwise someone would have done it already. Nes pas?


lol.. don't get it twisted, I am not here to convince people or prove that God exists. All I am saying is I know God Exists and whether your believe me or not it does not change the reality that I know God. So unless you can prove that I don't know God.

Then why did you start this thread? What was the purpose? Were you just making a statement, or starting a debate?

You are correct, no one can prove that to you God doesn't exist, just like you can't prove that he does. So, why start this? If no absolute proof can be obtained by either side, then this is just a way to start an argument.

I've said my peace, I don't wish to discuss this further. If history repeats itself then this thread won't last long, it's just a request to fight, and I'm sure a fight will ensue.

Good luck.

Remember.. to "know God" and to "know God exists" are two entirely different things...

Don't get confused on this.

And again, basic problem solving says that we cannot assume that everything is true until it is proven untrue. If that were the case, then I could accuse of you murder and you would be guilty until you were able to prove yourself un-guilty.

That is not the type of world we want to live in, is it?

[QUOTE=Altenweg;1303746]I was, or wasn't that evident when I said, I believe?



It would be relatively simple to prove that you had eggs, toast, bacon and a pancake. Stomach contents can be analyzed, pictures of you eating with a time stamped camera, many other ways as well. Proving Gods existence is much harder, otherwise someone would have done it already. Nes pas?

Stomach content from 2months ago? Believe me you will not be able to tell what I ate 2months ago on the 18th at 10am by examining my stomach contents today. That is just wishful thinking.. lol.
The problem is I do not have a picture with a time stamp, taking pictures of myself eating break fast is something I don't normaly do, so how do I prove to you today that I ate 2eggs with bacon toast and a blueberry pancake on the 18th of Aug at 10am?




Then why did you start this thread? What was the purpose? Were you just making a statement, or starting a debate?

I was just addressing Cred's insistence that no one KNOWS God exists. LIke I said this I what he chooses to believe because I KNOW God exists and unless he can prove I don't, his claims are just hot air subjective beliefs.


You are correct, no one can prove that to you God doesn't exist, just like you can't prove that he does. So, why start this? If no absolute proof can be obtained by either side, then this is just a way to start an argument.

Again you are missing the point of this discussion. Like I said I am not saying I can prove God, ALL I am just saying I KNOW he exists. Whether you think that is true or not make no difference to the fact that I know God.


I've said my peace, I don't wish to discuss this further. If history repeats itself then this thread won't last long, it's just a request to fight, and I'm sure a fight will ensue.

Good luck.

It is not meant to be fight, I am just correcting some miss led people.

It's the same argument about dissecting frogs. Everybody used to dissect frogs until some intelligent young lady, a still quiet voice, said, why do we have to dissect frogs? It's gross, why don't we just look at slides or pictures in a textbook instead of killing more all the time, I don't want their blood on my hands. And now we don't kill frogs anymore.
At one time we believed the earth was flat and some people still do.
All I'm saying that in the Resurrection if Cred doesn't believe in it, it won't be real to him (sorry to use you as an example ol' buddy) so he will never know for sure. But not to detract from his purpose to make this world and this life a better place, which is quite an admirable goal

But you knowing god doesn't mean he exists. So it is still a belief that you know god. I can say I know the tooth fairy but without being able to prove it, it makes it a belief.

Actually Jesus wasn't about making this place better for example
In Matthew 10:34, Jesus says, "Don't imagine that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword!"

Yes the image from Malachi chap. Three about the coming of the lord shows it to be more like Armaggeddon at the End of Days

The problem is I do not have a picture with a time stamp, taking pictures of myself eating break fast is something I don't normaly do, so how do I prove to you today that I ate 2eggs with bacon toast and a blueberry pancake on the 18th of Aug at 10am?

I don't need proof of something that simple. I'm sure you eat, otherwise you wouldn't survive. Eating is something every live human does, therefore it's a fact.

God is not as easily proven to be fact, not everyone believes in God, because there is no actual proof.

Or in other words...

Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence.

But we know that entropy and chaos are the natural order of the universe. So how does that produce a sassy that can walk and talk and has definite ideas about what to fix for breakfast without there being someone in charge of it all? Who changed all those diapers back in the stone age when Geico Man lived in a cave? How did that first human that miraculously evolved find a second human of the opposite sex to reproduce with?

By the way, fig leaves are cool. You just pick them and stick them on, the sap is like superglue.

There is a missing element that can be easily explained with God, however you define Him.

When you dig deep enough into science, you hit a wall... that is where the tow worlds clash.

I know SOMETHING exists. Not because I have proof but because it HAS to.

Wildandblue, are you saying that God controls all our actions? God is in charge of everything we do?

If so, why does God let people murder, rape, cheat, steal?

Fig leaves, never tried one, sounds sticky. ;)

Again just because you don't know something doesn't mean god did it. There have been many things in history that man has attributed to god and never have we found that yes indeed god is doing that.

"God is watching us from a distance"
Actually they are waterproof and leathery just like a second skin.
God didn't create us to be little robots but gave us our own minds. No one is forced to sin but just like they say, only the good die young

Well then, I'll live forever. ;)

I don't want to dispute the existence of God, frankly I do believe, but I still question. Will I ever "know" with 100% certainty that He exists? I don't think so. I wish I could be that certain, I'm not.

I believe because of personal experiences, but they could just as easily be attributed to lack of sleep, PMS, too much beer, not enough beer etc.

No proof for God exists, bottom line.

Now, proof of fig leaves, that's a no brainer. ;)

Yes the beer or not to beer decision, much more important.

But you knowing god doesn't mean he exists. So it is still a belief that you know god. I can say I know the tooth fairy but without being able to prove it, it makes it a belief.

Michealb, the difference between you and me is that I KNOW God exists, and you Don't Know whether God exists or not. So just because you have not come to the knowledge of God's existence, does not mean he does not exist. God has always been, is now, and always will be whether you know it or not.
I know my brother Tim and I know he exists, you don't know Him and you don't know whether he exists or not. Your not knowing him has no relavance to his existence. If you wanted to know my brother Tim you could seek and find him and come to know him, but as I would imagine you have no interest in that just like you have no interest in knowing God and that is the main reason why don't know God exists.

Sassy, your examples of proof aren't realistic.

If you say you have a brother, then what reason do we have to not believe your word? The possibility that you have a brother is realistic, many people have brothers, many of those brothers are named Tim, we have no reason to question your claim of a brother.

To say that you know God exists, well, that requires different proof. Not everyone believes in God, because there is no proof of His existence, unlike your brother Tim.

If anyone wanted to meet your brother Tim, that would be fairly easy, but God, not really.

(sighs ) :rolleyes:

And this, too, shall pass away


(I think this shall by my new quote for now)

The difference is again that on demand (if true) you can produce evidence for your brother's existence. I also have existing knowledge of other people having brothers. So your claim has some merit right there because I already know it is possible to have a brother. You can not do so with god. Even if you tell me exactly how to look for god. I won't find evidence for his existence.
I can say I know the tooth fairy and the only reason that you don't know the tooth fairy is because you don't have an interest in knowing the tooth fairy. If I can subsitude big foot, aliens, ghosts or the tooth fairy for the word god in your evidence and it makes just as much sense, your evidence is meaningless.

[QUOTE=Altenweg;1303891]I don't need proof of something that simple. I'm sure you eat, otherwise you wouldn't survive. Eating is something every live human does, therefore it's a fact.

Its not about just eating "something" , I mentioned very specific things I ate.
Yes this is a simple analogy but it can be applied anywhere. I KNOW for a fact that I ate 2eggs bacon etc.. On the 18th of Aug at 10am. I have absolutely no way of proving that but the fact still remains that I know what I ate on that day. So I am simply trying to illustrate that just because I can not prove God to the world, does not mean that I personly do not know he exists. I know He exists, regardless of whether I can prove it or not.



God is not as easily proven to be fact, not everyone believes in God, because there is no actual proof.

Again :rolleyes:, I am did not say anything about proving God. I am just saying my inability to prove Him to the world does not mean I don't know he exists.

Again just because you don't know something doesn't mean god did it. There have been many things in history that man has attributed to god and never have we found that yes indeed god is doing that.

Can you be more specific?

Sassy, I think you're missing the point.

I don't have to believe that you had eggs and bacon that day, it's a logical conclusion that what you claim could be the truth. Eggs exist, so does bacon, and pancakes. Logically, you could have had those food items on that day, therefore I have to reason to question your claim.

I could post pictures that people claim are bigfoot. Do you believe in Bigfoot? There are pictures, people say they've seen him. So, do you believe, after all, there's more proof of Bigfoots existence then there is of God's.

You can "think" that God is fact, but in order for anyone of us to admit that He is indeed fact, would require proof.

And round and round we go. :(

Tastes Great!






Less Filling!

Hakuna Matata. :)

Put your behind in your pants...

Er wait...

Put your past behind you

No worries. ;)

Oops, off topic. Bad Alty, bad, bad, bad.

We now return you to our regular scheduled program.

Sorry. :(

Really? Can't we just change the channel?

Oh OK...

The real issue here is that for many Christians, if they admit that they cannot technically "know" that God exists, they feel that they will influence the validity of their belief and therefore, be viewed as "less" of a Christian.

These are typically the same Christians that use quotes from the Bible to prove His existence...

Or answer intelligent questions with Religious Dogma...

Or go to church every Sunday so the neighborhood doesn't gossip about why they are NOT there...

Or are really only a Christian out of the fear of burning for eternity in Hell rather than for the right reasons.

I once posed a question that no Christians would even attempt to answer:

If the Bible instructed us to worship God and by doing so, we would all burn in Hell for all Eternity... It would go on to explain that this would be the ultimate way to show ones true love for God... a tragic end but for those that still worshiped Him, He would know they worshiped Him for the right reasons... if this were the case, how many Christians would have EVER become Christians?

Would they still claim to KNOW that He exist if these were His conditions?

[QUOTE=Altenweg;1303946]Sassy, your examples of proof aren't realistic.

Again (sigh) :rolleyes:, I am not trying to prove God.


If you say you have a brother, then what reason do we have to not believe your word? The possibility that you have a brother is realistic, many people have brothers, many of those brothers are named Tim, we have no reason to question your claim of a brother.

I could say the same thing about God. What reason do people have to not believe God exists? The possibility that God exists is realistic, many people know Him, many people talk to him everyday, you have no reason to question my claim that I know God.
I am just using an analogy if


To say that you know God exists, well, that requires different proof. Not everyone believes in God, because there is no proof of His existence, unlike your brother Tim.

I do not have to be able to prove God to the rest of the world to Know He exists. That does not make sense. That goes back to my breakfast analogy. I do not have to be able to prove to the world what I had for breakfast on the 18th to KNOW what I ate on that day.


If anyone wanted to meet your brother Tim, that would be fairly easy, but God, not really

Actually I think meeting God would be easier than trying to track my brother down because at least God will come to you if you sincerely seek Him.

No sassy is taking her parents word for it that that is her brother, whose father is taking her mothers word for it that that is his son, maybe dna could prove it but I don't think dna can prove siblinghood, or even if they took the wrong baby home from the hospital, or adopted him or her and are not telling. So on back to Adam in OUR tale all of which is tediously set out in the Old Testament . Like a chicken is just an eggs way of making another egg. Or if a seed falls to the ground and dies, and is reborn as something greater than it was . Why are plants and even butterflies so much more complicated than us?

I give up, really I do.

Okay Sassy, you have a brother named Tim, you ate eggs and bacon, and to you God is a fact.

To me God is a belief, that's all.

Peace. :)

[QUOTE=Altenweg;1303994]

You can "think" that God is fact, but in order for anyone of us to admit that He is indeed fact, would require proof.

And again, this is where you are missing the point. I did not say God was a fact niether did I say I want you to admit that he is indeed fact. All I am saying, again is that I know God exists and I realise there are people out there who don't know He exists.

[QUOTE=DrJizzle;1304073]Really? Can't we just change the channel?

Oh OK...

The real issue here is that for many Christians, if they admit that they cannot technically "know" that God exists, they feel that they will influence the validity of their belief and therefore, be viewed as "less" of a Christian.

This is your subjective opinion and belief unless you have some factual data to prove this is what Christians really believe. I will tell you right now, what you said does not apply to me. I just simply know God exists, I don't know why that is so difficult for people to accept. :confused:




If the Bible instructed us to worship God and by doing so, we would all burn in Hell for all Eternity... It would go on to explain that this would be the ultimate way to show ones true love for God... a tragic end but for those that still worshiped Him, He would know they worshiped Him for the right reasons... if this were the case, how many Christians would have EVER become Christians?

No me that's for sure, thank God that is not the case. :D


Would they still claim to KNOW that He exist if these were His conditions?

Of course I would still say know God exists, if indeed that kind of a god existed. "His conditions" have anything to do with whether He exists.

I did not say God was a fact

Then what did you mean by this statement?


I know without a doubt that God exists whether you BELIEVE I do or not. That's just a fact, I know God exists.

Maybe I am missing the point, or it's just because I am taking what you write literally. Should I read between the lines? Would that get us on the same page?

This is your subjective opinion and belief unless you have some factual data to prove this is what Christians really believe. I will tell you right now, what you said does not apply to me. I just simply know God exists, i dont know why that is so difficult for people to accept. :confused:


Actually, I say it is so therefore it is so. It is now the truth until you can prove otherwise. Unfortunately for those this may apply to, there is no way to prove to me what it REALLY inside your heart/mind so what I said will remain truth for the rest of eternity :D





Not me thats for sure, thank God that is not the case. :D


My point exactly. So by admitting this, you are admitting that you only worship God so that you won't go to Hell...



Ofcourse i would still say know God exists, if indeed that kind of a god existed. "His conditions" have anything to do with whether or not He exists.

Well you already said you wouldn't be a Christian if that were the case... so do you really think that you would say that you KNOW God exists if you weren't a Christian?

Post #4 : The problem here is the mis-use of the meaning of the verb "to know".

So let's start defining what is meant / not meant with "TO KNOW" in this respect.
Sassy : you and Fred mean with "to know" that it is a reality, not that it is just your personal perception. In this specific case the unsupported claim that "God" exists. But the existence of "God" has NEVER been a reality, because it is based on BELIEF. So the use of the verb "to know" here is incorrect.
Yes the existence of God has never been a reality to YOU. However it has been a reality to me and many other Christians.
Sassy : I stated that the problem here is not in what you believe, or why you believe, or how you believe.
The problem is related to what you MEAN here with "to know" (No need for a dictionary quote : just YOUR meaning please).

Unfortunately you - as usual - try to skip the real issue here. You say it is a reality that "God" exists.

So let me ask you specifically to qualify the following : where you state in your topic starter :

If I say I know God exists... ---> What does that mean for each of the following 5 statements :

1 - "You believe that "You believe that " exists".
2 - "Your personal perception is that " exists" exists".
3 - "God's existence is only a personal reality to you"Your personal perception is that "The entity " exists" (with qualities as per the Biblical claim) exists".
4 - "God's existence (and powers) is a fact".

Please reply with a clear response, and explain WHY that is so for each of the 5 options.

:rolleyes:

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.

I was really beginning to wonder where Credendovis was, since this post is all about him. Of course there's the awful possibility we have to consider, that he might have something better to do than listen to us...

There are better things than AMHD? Egad! ;)

Sassy, I would also like to hear your response to Cred's question, maybe that will clear up a few misunderstandings. :)

I was really beginning to wonder where Credendovis was, since this post is all about him. Of course there's the awful possibility we have to consider, that he might have something better to do than listen to us.....
What a silly person you must be to post so much foolishness...

To start : may be you should start listening to me and others first...
And yes, I had something better to do than listen to you and your theistic peers...

But how terrible that you had to wait 1 or 2 days for my reaction after the one in post #4.
How did you survive all that long waiting?
Of course I was not aware that prior to a visit to my children and grandchildren in England I had to notify you personally. My absence on-line here seems to have caused so much of a traumatic experience to you that you have my full sympathy, and I quickly add a "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa" to make it up to you...

Please take careful note of the following expected days off-line here :

During the last week of November 2008 I will be on a short business trip to the Far East = off-line.
Early December 2008 I will be visiting again my children and grandchildren in England = off-line.
Over Christmas 2008 I will be visiting my daughter in Africa = off-line.
February-March 2009 I will be on a ski holiday in Switzerland = off-line.
Spring 2009 I will most probably sailing again in my yacht on the Atlantic Ocean and - possibly - in the Mediterranean Sea. But on-board I - fortunately for you - have a satellite link, so that I can remain on-line.
For summer 2009 no firm plans are presently available - my sincere apologies for that inconveniance are hereby offered. Most probably it will be a visit to Australia or Thailand.

I just give you all that information already so that you can prepare yourself for all these long absences. I hate to think that you - in your confusion caused by these absences - will step off a high building, jump in front of a train, or electrocute yourself at the Christmas tree, just because all these unannounced and long absences drive you into complete insanity. Subject of course that you have not arrived at that result already, which - from your post here - is another rather viable possibility...

:D:rolleyes::D:rolleyes::D

.

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[QUOTE=DrJizzle;1304169]Actually, I say it is so therefore it is so. It is now the truth until you can prove otherwise. Unfortunately for those this may apply to, there is no way to prove to me what it REALLY inside your heart/mind so what I said will remain truth for the rest of eternity

Not unless you can prove it to be true. Can you prove I don't know God?




My point exactly. So by admitting this, you are admitting that you only worship God so that you won't go to Hell...

I worship God because He created me, and HE is my Father and I love him.
Yes! Duh.. lol I don't want to go to Hell, but that is just a benefit that is extended to me for Loving and accepting my Creator.




Well you already said you wouldn't be a Christian if that were the case... so do you really think that you would say that you KNOW God exists if you weren't a Christian?


Yes of course! Why not?. lol Knowing God has nothing to do with what religious affilitiation one identifies with. The two are mutually exlusive. I knew God before I professed to be "Christian". I do not consider myself religious at all. I just have a personal relationship with God. I only call myself a "Christian" because that is the term used by the world to describe followers of Christ. And I am follower of Christ.
So the bottom line is I know God, and that has absolutely nothing to do with my "religious affiliation". Being a Christian is not a prerequisite to knowing God, believe me. I was far from being a Christian when I found God. :o

[QUOTE=Credendovidis;1305401]Sassy : I stated that the problem here is not in what you believe, or why you believe, or how you believe.
The problem is related to what you MEAN here with "to know" (No need for a dictionary quote : just YOUR meaning please).

Unfortunately you - as usual - try to skip the real issue here. You say it is a reality that "God" exists.

Cred. I know God exists. You don't know whether he exists or not. That all you need to know.

So let me ask you specifically to qualify the following : where you state in your topic starter :
---> What does that mean for each of the following 5 statements :

1 - "You believe that "God" exists".

I don't believe God exists, I know God exists.

2 - "Your personal perception is that "God" exists".

I have knowledge of God's Existence. You don't..

3 - "God's existence is only a personal reality to you".

God's existence is a reality to me and many billions of other people who share the same knowledge of Him.

4 - "The entity "God" (with qualities as per the Biblical claim) exists".

I know God exists.

5 - "God's existence (and powers) is a fact".

I know God exists, that is the Fact.


Please reply with a clear response, and explain WHY that is so for each of the 5 options.

Hope that helps! ;)

Now call me cynical, but I think it is naïve for believers and non believers of God to think they can ever reach an agreement. Especially when both are so adamant. Nobody has 100% solid proof in God-if they did EVERBODY would believe. That's the key word-believe. You can believe and have faith but KNOWING something requires KNOWLEDGE and that requires FACT. "God exists" is not a fact. It is an opinion and will continue to be until his existence is proved/disproved.

This is coming from a christian.

Not unless you can prove it to be true. Can you prove i dont know God?




No, by your standards, I don't have to prove it to be true.. it is up to YOU to prove it to be FALSE... otherwise, it is true. This is completely based on your standards... not mine.

If God exists because others can't prove that he doesn't, then what I said is true unless you can prove that it isn't. See how that works?




I worship God because He created me, and HE is my Father and i love him.
Yes! Duh..lol i dont wanna go to Hell, but that is just a benifit that is extended to me for Loving and accepting my Creator.



BUT... if it were a choice between NOT worshiping God and NOT going to Hell... OR... WORSHIPING God and HAVING to go to Hell... you said you would choose to NOT go to Hell... meaning that you would no longer worship God. That's just what you said..

I find discussion with you somewhat tiresome since you don't seem to pay attention or actually read what others are writing.





Yes ofcourse! why not??..lol Knowing God has nothing to do with what religious affilitiation one identifies with. The two are mutually exlusive. I knew God before i professed to be "Christian". I do not consider myself religious at all. I just have a personal relationship with God. I only call myself a "Christian" because that is the term used by the world to describe followers of Christ. And i am follower of Christ.
So the bottom line is i know God, and that has absolutely nothing to do with my "religious affiliation". Being a Christian is not a prerequisite to knowing God, believe me. I was far from being a Christian when i found God. :o

Yes, of course this would all make sense if you hadn't already said otherwise.. of course, you did so without seeming to know it... which just goes back to what I said above about you not paying attention.


It reminds me of a scene from the movie Zoolander. Ben Stillers character, Zoolander, asks an ex-hand model "But why male models" in an attempt to find out why the bad guys choose male models to brainwash. The ex-hand model replies with an explanation about how male models aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. After the explanation, Zoolander nods his head in agreement and says "Oh.... ....but why male models?"

The ex-hand model says, "Are you serious? You just asked me that."

:D

Now call me cynical, but I think it is naive for believers and non believers of God to think they can ever reach an agreement. Especially when both are so adamant. Nobody has 100% solid proof in God-if they did EVERBODY would believe. That's the key word-believe. You can believe and have faith but KNOWING something requires KNOWLEDGE and that requires FACT. "God exists" is not a fact. It is an opinion and will continue to be until his existence is proved/disproved.

This is coming from a christian.

And a competent Christian!

**applauds**

A 17 year old one too lol, thank you :)

Cred. I know God exists.....
Thanks Sassy : with that reply you showed us all five times that all you do is BELIEVE that "God" exists !

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Sassy, you believe that you know, you don't know and your reasoning isn't good enough to convince anyone of your knowledge of God.

If you know then you can prove, otherwise it's just belief.

Cred, you're rubbing off on me. ;)

Cred, you're rubbing off on me.
That may be. Fortunately I note that your signature states "Warning, major flirt, approach with caution".

... hhmmmm... Some thoughts are better not posted...

:D :D :D :D :D :D

.

It's just a heads up, a warning, sadly very true as well. ;)

[QUOTE=DrJizzle;1308071]No, by your standards, I don't have to prove it to be true.. it is up to YOU to prove it to be FALSE... otherwise, it is true. This is completely based on your standards... not mine.

If God exists because others can't prove that he doesn't, then what I said is true unless you can prove that it isn't. See how that works?

*sigh* Again I did not say "God exists" I said "i know God exists" there is a huge difference between those two statements but it seems you are getting too hung up on the former, which is far from what I am say.




BUT... if it were a choice between NOT worshiping God and NOT going to Hell... OR... WORSHIPING God and HAVING to go to Hell... you said you would choose to NOT go to Hell... meaning that you would no longer worship God. That's just what you said..


Going to Hell or Not going to hell, worshiping or Not worshiping God, none of this has any relevance to my knowledge of God so I am not sure what you are trying to get here. What has that got to do with my knowledge of God? Help me understand.


I find discussion with you somewhat tiresome since you don't seem to pay attention or actually read what others are writing.

Just because I do not blindly agree with people's subjective opinions does not mean I am not reading what they said. I just don't agree..





Yes, of course this would all make sense if you hadn't already said otherwise.. of course, you did so without seeming to know it... which just goes back to what I said above about you not paying attention.

Again, help me understand, what has being a Christian, going or not going to Hell, worshiping or not worshiping God, have to do with Knowing God?
That is like saying to someone "you only say you "know" Goerge Bush because you are a republican".. . which make no sense. Because knowing Goerge Bush is not dependent what so ever on one's political affiliation. In the same way knowing God is not dependent in anyway on one's relgious affiliation.



It reminds me of a scene from the movie Zoolander. Ben Stillers character, Zoolander, asks an ex-hand model "But why male models" in an attempt to find out why the bad guys choose male models to brainwash. The ex-hand model replies with an explanation about how male models aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. After the explanation, Zoolander nods his head in agreement and says "Oh.... ....but why male models?"

The ex-hand model says, "Are you serious? You just asked me that."

:D

*sigh* Again I did not say "God exists" I said "i know God exists" there is a huge difference between those two statements but it seems you are getting too hung up on the former, which is far from what I am say.

Sassy, when you say that you know God exists then you are indeed saying that God exists. There is no difference between those two statements.

If there is a difference then please explain, obviously the rest of us are having a problem understanding what it is you are trying to convey.

Thanks Sassy : with that reply you showed us all five times that all you do is BELIEVE that "God" exists !

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.

Okay, that is just your BELIEF on the matter. And I respect that. ;)

[QUOTE=Altenweg;1308434]Sassy, you believe that you know, you don't know...

Again this is your subjective opinion on the matter and I respect everyone opinions. ;)

Thanks Sassy : with that reply you showed us all five times that all you do is BELIEVE that "God" exists !
Okay, that is just your BELIEF on the matter. And I respect that.

Again this is your subjective opinion on the matter and i respect everyone opinions.
Incorrect sassyT : you SHOWED yourself with these replies that all you do is BELIEVE that "God" exists. I have nothing to do with that. Your words are clear. And without any proof to support them, all you can base your statement on is BELIEF.

If you have a mental problem with finding the verb "to believe" inferior in any way, just speak to your religious mentor. Just replacing "to believe" with "to know" will not change your condition : all you CAN do is to believe!!

:)

.

[QUOTE=Credendovidis;1311973]Incorrect sassyT : you SHOWED yourself with these replies that all you do is BELIEVE that "God" exists. I have nothing to do with that. Your words are clear. And without any proof to support them, all you can base your statement on is BELIEF.

Obviously I was not as clear as I needed to be... my apologies... Let me make my words clearer for you I KNOW GOD EXISTS. ;)


If you have a mental problem with finding the verb "to believe" inferior in any way, just speak to your religious mentor. Just replacing "to believe" with "to know" will not change your condition : all you CAN do is to believe!!

I don't know why you have a problem with my knowing God... lol. If we said hypothetically for your sake, that God does really exist, why then would it be impossible to know He exists? I know he exists as much as I know Goerge Bush exists. Just because you don't know God, does not mean it is impossible to know He exists.

I KNOW God exists, but I BELIEVE He is who He says He is, the Creator of the Heavens and the earth. :)

I think it's time this thread was closed, we're going in circles and getting no where.

Apparently, without proof, SassyT "knows that God exists" even though she has no desire to prove that "knowledge".

I know that I'm done with this thread, you can take that knowledge to the bank.

Peace.

[QUOTE=Altenweg;1312990]I think it's time this thread was closed, we're going in circles and getting no where.

Apparently, without proof, SassyT "knows that God exists" even though she has no desire to prove that "knowledge".

Again, going back to my breakfast a month ago analogy. I KNOW what I had for Break fast a month ago (2 eggs, toast etc). I have absolutely no way to prove that to the world but it does not change the fact that I KNOW what I had for breakfast that day. Same as God, I don't have way to prove God because of the nature of His Being, however my inability to prove Him to the world has no relevance to the my knowing Him.
So I don't know why you take offense to my saying I know God. You can not tell me what I know and don't know because for one you don't even know me, so like I said I respect your opinion although it does not in anyway reflect reality.

And again... these two statements are VERY different things. I think you are mixing them together:

I KNOW God.

I KNOW God exists.

Two completely different things. No one is disputing the fact that you KNOW God. What they are disputing is that you KNOW GOd exists.

and again... these two statements are VERY different things. I think you are mixing them together:

I KNOW God.

I KNOW God exists.

two completely different things. No one is disputing the fact that you KNOW God. What they are disputing is that you KNOW GOd exists.

Again, I know God exists and I have taken the time to get to Know Him. People can dispute if they want to, and that's fine, like I said you are all entitled to your own opinions and I respect that.

Again, I know God exists and i have taken the time to get to Know Him. People can dispute if they want to, and thats fine, like i said you are all entitled to your own opinions and i respect that.
No sassy : you do NOT know that "God" exists. You BELIEVE that "God" exists.
All you "prove" here is that you feel the meaning of the verb "to believe" too inferior to your "taste", so you replace "to believe" with "to know", as if that supports what is impossible-to-support.

As I stated earlier :

Post #4 : The problem here is the mis-use of the meaning of the verb "to know".
..//..
Sassy : you and Fred mean with "to know" that it is a reality, not that it is just your personal perception. In this specific case the unsupported claim that "God" exists. But the existence of "God" has NEVER been a reality, because it is based on BELIEF.
Sassy : your personal PERCEPTION may be that "God" exists. But that is NOT the same as that "God" exists!!

"God's" existence you can either BELIEVE (no problem), or be proved (no problem neither).
But till you can prove that, changing/replacing words do not matter a single iota to the fact that "God's" existence has so far NEVER been proved.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

.

Darnit, dragged me in again. Okay, one last comment.


Again, going back to my breakfast a month ago analogy. I KNOW what I had for Break fast a month ago (2 eggs, toast etc). I have absolutely no way to prove that to the world but it does not change the fact that I KNOW what I had for breakfast that day

Sassy, I know that eggs exist, I've personally eaten eggs before, as well as toast, therefore I have no reason to dispute your claim of having eaten eggs and toast two months ago. It's a logical claim and entirely possible.


So I don't know why you take offense to my saying I know God

I take no offensce in you saying you know God, I take offence in you saying you know God exists, because, unless you have proof that God exists, you cannot know that He does.

Unlike the eggs and toast, there is no proof of Gods existensce.

know (n)
v. knew (n, ny), known (nn), know·ing, knows
v.tr.
1. To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty.
2. To regard as true beyond doubt: I know she won't fail

ex·ist (g-zst)
Intr.v. ex·ist·ed, ex·ist·ing, ex·ists
1. To have actual being; be real.
2. To have life; live:

Do you understand now why we have a problem with your claim?

I think I am getting these threads confused... but then again, is there REALLY much of a difference between the two?

Maybe the two should be merged and then closed at the same time, it would save some time. ;)

I've read like the first and last page of this post. Sassyt, did you have some experience that proved to you god exists? I ask, because paul had a supernatural experience, which definitely impacted his life.

sassyt, did you have some experience that proved to you god exists?
I posted elsewhere the following post about the same problem with sassyT's argumentation ( GOD is amazing! - post # 128 ) :

sassyT believes in "God" etc. etc. etc.
Fine with me. No problem with that. From me she may believe whatever she wants.

sassyT CLAIMS to know science and the scientific method and way of operation of science, but misuses science to attack evolution and origin of the universe and of life, and shows almost no scientific knowledge and capability of argumentation herself. Apparently all she can rely on is her BELIEF.
sassyT FAILS each time when asked to support her own ideas with any scientific evidence, but claims than the freedom to BELIEVE that .
sassyT is clearly not a reliable source, but is instead a fanatic fundamentalist creationist running at the leash of the ICR and sort like organisations.

sassyT became rather irritated when all her posts here ended in the conclusion that whatever she CLAIMED to be was what she BELIEVED to be.
It is for that reason that sassyT started this nonsense about "to know" instead of "to believe".
And as long as this topic remains open I will keep posting about her "to know" nonsense.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Post slightly shortened afterwards
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[QUOTE=Credendovidis;1313341]No sassy : you do NOT know that "God" exists...

Again Cred, this is just your subjective opinion and I respect it. ;)

Again Cred, this is just your subjective opinion and i respect it. The only subjective opinion here is YOURS, sassyT!!
It is you who makes WILD RELIGIOUS CLAIMS that you can't support!!

And it is YOU who replaces the word (to) "BELIEVE" with (to) "KNOW", as if that has more value and/or validity... How silly of you!! All you prove with that is a lack of real conviction in what you believe...

:D :D :D :D :D :D

.

.

The only subjective opinion here is YOURS, sassyT !!!
It is you who makes WILD RELIGIOUS CLAIMS that you can't support !!!

And it is YOU who replaces the word (to) "BELIEVE" with (to) "KNOW", as if that has more value and/or validity .... How silly of you !!! All you prove with that is a lack of real conviction in what you believe ....


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Lol... :rolleyes:
Cred thank you for your input and your opinions, like I have said before, I respect all of the above opinions you have of me. Although your opinions are far from reality, I still respect them. Thank you ;)

No sassy : you do NOT know that "God" exists....

.

Prove it.

Prove it.
I do not have to. I used the same meaning of "to know" as you do : I ACCEPT that as correct.

As soon as you can PROVE to me that God exist, I will PROVE to you that your "to know" is more than "to believe".

:rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes: :D

.

.

As soon as you can PROVE to me that God exist, I will PROVE to you that your "to know" is more than "to believe".


.

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Again Cred. You are missing the Point. I did not say God's existence is a fact and I can prove it, I just said my Knowledge of his existence is a fact.. lol there is a big difference there. I know God exists and unless you can prove otherwise, your disputing my knowledge is nothing but hot air, subjective opinionated babble. ;)

Without evidence your knowledge is nothing but hot air, subjective opinionated babble.

I know God exists and unless you can prove otherwise, your disputing my knowledge is nothing but hot air, subjective opinionated babble.
SassyT : you still seem unable to understand that I do not have to prove anything. I do not claim anything.
I do not claim that "God" exists.
I do not claim that "God" does not exist.
You claim you "know" that "God" exists, but every time you are asked to prove that in any way you fail to do so.

To know in this respect and in this context means that you have proof.
I ask you to detail your supporting source for that "proof".
Anyone who would have such "proof" would be glad to do so.
I note that you however fail to provide that "proof".
Remains the strong possibility that you don't have any "proof", and that you only have a lot of hot air, subjective opinionated babble...

Why don't you prove me wrong ?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

.

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Yes, this is SassyT, I have been gone so long I forgot my password. Oh well, I am BACK and I am still more certain that ever that I know God exists. :D

[QUOTE=Credendovidis;1340836]SassyT : you still seem unable to understand that I do not have to prove anything. I do not claim anything.

Are you sure about that Cred?


I do not claim that "God" exists.
I do not claim that "God" does not exist.

But you DO claim I don't know God exists. You are yet to prove that claim.



.

SassyT : you still seem unable to understand that I do not have to prove anything. I do not claim anything.
I do not claim that "God" exists.
I do not claim that "God" does not exist.
You claim you "know" that "God" exists, but everytime you are asked to prove that in any way you fail to do so.

To know in this respect and in this context means that you have proof.
I ask you to detail your supporting source for that "proof".
Anyone who would have such "proof" would be glad to do so.

Cred,

This argument is so stale. I have seen a number of people on different boards give you proof. We recently had a thread of over 500 posts here discussing the proof, buit no matter what is presented, you refuse to accept it because you refuse to believe anything that shows that there is in fact a God.

Cred,

This argument is so stale. I have seen a number of people on different boards give you proof. We recently had a thread of over 500 posts here discussing the proof, buit no matter what is presented, you refuse to accept it because yopu refuse to believe anything that shows that there is in fact a God.

He is just in denail. Like Richard Dawkins

The argument by Cred et al seems to go kind of like this.

We can't see, smell, touch, taste, feel or hear God with our physical senses, ergo, God does not exist.

The same argument could be made for Cred's brain. (Don't go ballistic here)

I cannot see, smell, touch, taste, feel or hear your brain, ergo, it doesn't exist.

Sure, you post things, but how do I know where that comes from?

Where is your OSE for your brain? YOU KNOW it's there, but how do I know it?

I suppose at some future date an autopsy might prove the existence of your brain.

At some future date we may all come face to face with God, too.

This is not a personal attack. Just an attack on your reasoning.

We can't see, smell, touch, taste, feel or hear God with our physical senses, ergo, God does not exist.
The same argument could be made for Cred's brain. (Don't go ballistic here)
I cannot see, smell, touch, taste, feel or hear your brain, ergo, it doesn't exist.


We could MRI Cred's head or we could open up his head and look in side and see his brain if you really didn't believe it. So where is your test to prove god? Can we use an mri or look somewhere to see god no, ergo god doesn't exist by your own reasoning.


God is a faith without proof. The only ones who don't seem to understand that is the fanatics.

We could MRI Cred's head or we could open up his head and look in side and see his brain if you really didn't believe it. So where is your test to prove god? Can we use an mri or look somewhere to see god no, ergo god doesn't exist by your own reasoning.


God is a faith without proof. The only ones who don't seem to understand that is the fanatics.

Plenty of evidence has been offered on this board. Some folk just won't accept anything if they don't want to.

Actually all I've ever seen is you say there is plenty of evidence, I've never actually seen you offer any. Then you complain that we are ignoring the evidence.

God is a faith something you believe without evidence because you want to very few believers will say differently except for the few fanatics.

Actually all I've ever seen is you say there is plenty of evidence, I've never actually seen you offer any. Then you complain that we are ignoring the evidence.

Look at the thread about the evidence for God.

I know God Exists. So why do people like Cred claim people like me dont KNOW we just Believe.


They don't know what you know, and since your lousy at explanations, and proof, they don't see where your thinking is from.

Does that change what you know?? NO! Does it matter? Not to me!

They don't know what you know, and since your lousy at explanations, and proof, they don't see where your thinking is from.

Does that change what you know??? NO! Does it matter?? Not to me!

Odd that those who are willing to consider the evidence think that what I posted is very clear. The only ones who think that it is isn't are those who rejected God before they looked at the evidence.

Yea, I read that one and as we said in that thread your evidence doesn't conform with basic logic that 99% of the population uses.

Basically your like the guy on the street corner who thinks gerbils are about to take over the world. Sure he really believes it and he has all sorts of evidence that he is 100% certain proves his point. He isn't lying because he really does believe what he says and desperately wants you to listen. However that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't use the same logic the rest of us use when looking at what he calls evidence. You are also similar in the fact that no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to convince you that are wrong. Same condition different theories.

You just happened to latch on to something more main stream. However this may not be entirely on you either people are lured into cults all the time. People who seemingly have free will make very bad choices. It can happen to almost anyone. I've even had family members who have been lured by cults, luckily we managed to get them all out and back to reason. I feel sorry that you haven't gotten the help you need to pull you back from the edge.

Odd that those who are willing to consider the evidence think that what I posted is very clear. The only ones who think that it is isn't are those who rejected God before they looked at the evidence.How nice of you to make assumptions about other people's viewpoints.

Yea, I read that one and as we said in that thread your evidence doesn't conform with basic logic that 99% of the population uses.

That is YOUR opinion, but it does conform with standard logic, and it does conform with scientific principles.

How nice of you to make assumptions about other people's viewpoints.

They posted their views a long time beforehand on other threads - no assumptions.

My point was, I never have needed evidence to have a relationship with the God that I understand.

My point was, I never have needed evidence to have a relationship with the God that I understand.

Agreed. Your explanation was unclear.

That is YOUR opinion, but it does conform with standard logic, and it does conform with scientific principles.

Right it's is my opinion that does conform with standard logic and does conform with scientific principles. It's just you and the gerbil guy that don't.

Seriously you sound exactly like everyone else who is part of some cult. Speak with someone who was a part of a cult they will have the same standard answers you do and be just as sure of themselves.

Right it's is my opinion that does conform with standard logic and does conform with scientific principles. It's just you and the gerbil guy that don't.

Seriously you sound exactly like everyone else who is part of some cult. Speak with someone who was a part of a cult they will have the same standard answers you do and be just as sure of themselves.

You should spend more time studying the scientific method.

You should spend more time studying the scientific method.

There you go sounding like the gerbil guy again. I agree with what you said about my opinion following standard logic and scientific reasoning and then you tell me I need to learn the scientific method.

Of course I can't expect to have a reasonable debate with standard reasoning with the gerbil guy so why would I expect one from you. Like I said same problem different ideas.

There you go sounding like the gerbil guy again. I agree with what you said about my opinion following standard logic and scientific reasoning and then you tell me I need to learn the scientific method.

Of course I can't expect to have a reasonable debate with standard reasoning with the gerbil guy so why would I expect one from you. Like I said same problem different ideas.

Well I don't know who gerbil guy is, but I stuck purely to science so if you cannot deal with science, then so be it.

I know God Exists. So why do people like Cred claim people like me dont KNOW we just Believe.
So you say you experience / have experienced ''God" directly?

---

Well, some people have experienced a pink elephant. Does that mean that pink elephants exist?
George W. Bush in 2002 stated that "God" told him to invade Iraq. Just a pity that "God" did not reveal to him where these "weapons of mass-destruction" were located. Because just as with the pink elephants these WMD''s did not exist neither.
The asylums are full with "Napoleons" and "Charly Chaplins" who claim that "God" told them to be one of these persons. But are they real? Of course not!
We humor all these cases because not many people share them.
That more people believe in - or even claim to "know" "God" does not support in any way that such a "God" exist.
(exerpts from Dawkins and Harris)
We have names for people who have many beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them "religious". Otherwise they are likely to be called "mad", "psychotic", or "delusional".
Religious people are not generally mad, but their core beliefs are !

---

As always : from me you may BELIEVE in "God". You may also BELIEVE that you "know" that "God" exists, and you even may BELIEVE that "God" communicates with you.

But the onus to prove that what you BELIEVE is up to you, and other people do not have to prove that what you BELIEVE is incorrect. If you insist that your delusions are reality, than PROVE that with Objective Supported Evidence. And if you can't prove that, than please stop making these empty claims.

Until that moment your claim that you know that "God" exists is nothing more than an unsupported wild claim that carries no validity in the reality domain !

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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We have names for people who have many beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them "religious". Otherwise they are likely to be called "mad", "psychotic", or "delusional".
Religious people are not generally mad, but their core beliefs are !

Vred,

Christiians have reason for their peliefs and have presented some of it to you. Having reason is what, by definition, is rational.

You have NEVER presented any reason for your beliefs, therefore shall we consider your beliefs irrational and your beliefs "mad"?

Christiians have reason for their peliefs and have presented some of it to you. Having reason is what, by definition, is rational.
Incorrect : they expressed their interpretation of what they BELIEVED. But never the reason of their BELIEF.


You have NEVER presented any reason for your beliefs, therefore shall we consider your beliefs irrational and your beliefs "mad"?
Unlike you and your religious peers I never claimed anything that is not supported.

The belief in some invisible being sitting on a throne in the clouds being busy with the sex life of 6+ billion human beings sounds rather delusional to me...

:D :D :D :D :D :D

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In the grand scheme of things what does it matter who believes what. Its human nature not to accept that which others are saying, without proof, just as its human nature to know without needing evidence. Since there is no credible evidence either way, no side can be right with any logical advantage, and the truth is we don't know one way or another. Changing someone's mind is not my idea of the greatest use of time, but in the sake of good old hard headed bickering both sides are wrong! Do you want evidence to that??

Incorrect : they expressed their interpretation of what they BELIEVED. But never the reason of their BELIEF.

Cred, come on, you know better than that. The threads are on this board and others. Does it really hurt to admit the truth?


Unlike you and your religious peers I never claimed anything that is not supported.

Cred, you are unbelievable.

Cred, come on, you know better than that. The threads are on this board and others. Does it really hurt to admit the truth? Cred, you are unbelievable.
Funny than that you never can provide clear examples of your wild and false claims.
Your reply is another example of this lack of support !

You claimed that ... Christians have reason for their beliefs and have presented some of it to me..

I reacted that this was incorrect as Christians only express their interpretation of what they BELIEVE , but never the reason of their BELIEF.

Actually hardly any Christian believer ever questioned him/herself WHY they believe and what the reason is for their belief.
At least I have hardly ever seen any post about this particular format of religious soul searching.

The 2500+ different Christian interpretations of the same instruction manual supports the conclusion that either the instruction manual is of extreme poor quality of editing, or that the religious views are based on some format of religious brainwashing.

What remains is my conclusion that stating that one "knows" that "God" exists is near delusional.

:D

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Funny than that you never can provide clear examples of your wild and false claims.
Your reply is another example of this lack of support !


Oh Cred, and this from a man who outright refuses to provide evidence for him claims.

Here is one of the threads to help your obviously failing memory!

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/objective-supported-evidence-gods-existence-271164.html

In the grand scheme of things what does it matter who believes what.
From me anyone may believe whatever he or she likes.
My comments address the unsupported wild claim that what one personally believes has any format of validity over any other view.

From me you may believe that "God" exists. You also may state that you believe this or that...
But if you claim that "God" exists and/or that you "know" that "God" exist, you either have to support that with OSE, or accept that others reject such wild religious unsupported claims.

:rolleyes:

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Here is one of the threads to help your obviously failing memopry!
You can refer as many times as you like to your list of queries on evolution, but that NEVER will be of any validity as to the existence of a deity.

Tommy : I'm sorry to see that you still lack the understanding that lack of proof for idea A is not proof for the correctness of idea B.

Note that I offered you an open discussion of your queries on a board targeted at evolution questions, but that it was you who refused to go there...

:D :D :D :D :D :D

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You can refer as many times as you like to your list of queries on evolution, but that NEVER will be of any validity as to the existence of a deity.

That is what I said - whenever you see the evidence, you outright reject it.

That is what I said - whenever you see the evidence, you outright reject it.
Tommy : what evidence ? As I already stated : I'm sorry to see that you still lack the understanding that lack of proof for idea A is not proof for the correctness of idea B.

:D :D :D :D :D :D

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Tommy : what evidence ? As I already stated : I'm sorry to see that you still lack the understanding that lack of proof for idea A is not proof for the correctness of idea B.


Your memory is getting shorter!


https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religio...ce-271164.html

Your memory is getting shorter!
Not my memory, Tommy ! As I already stated :

what evidence ? I'm sorry to see that you still fail the understanding that the (claimed) lack of proof for evolution idea A is not proof for the correctness of religious idea B. .

You seem to be extremely frustrated that all you have is a totally invalid logical argument !
The link you provided indicates that all you can show in your claimed support for God's existence (idea B) are some queries on evolution - an entire different subject (idea A).

May it be in you to realize that Christianity is based on love and forgiveness, and not on all that hatred , despite , and frustration that you display here so often ! I hope that you can bring yourself to change your ways !

I wish you and your family a very merry Christmas, and hope to see you again - most probably - in the new year !

John

:)

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For everyone :

I wish you and yours a very merry Christmas, and I hope to see you all back early next year.
In the mean time as from this Friday I will be off-line in the UK to join in all the opcoming festivities with all my children and grandchildren.
Hereby my best wishes for you and yours in the new year !

:)


Please have a look here : LINK (http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x99/PixieDustII/DSC00893.jpg)

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Incorrect : they expressed their interpretation of what they BELIEVED. But never the reason of their BELIEF.


Unlike you and your religious peers I never claimed anything that is not supported.



:D :D :D :D :D :D

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Sure you have. You often make the claim that the Bible is self-contridictory. Either support that claim or abandon it.

Sure you have. You often make the claim that the Bible is self-contridictory. Either support that claim or abandon it.
Yes Galveston I posted two topics on Bible contradictions.
No Galveston : I have NOT done that without supporting data.
One topic had some 50 lines of proof, another one had over 100+ lines of proof.
And I have already informed you about that now already twice !
That you are too lazy to search for these topics yourself is not my problem.
I feel no need to do that for you.

Merry Christmas, Galveston !

:)

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Not my memory, Tommy ! As I already stated :

what evidence ? I'm sorry to see that you still fail the understanding that the (claimed) lack of proof for evolution idea A is not proof for the correctness of religious idea B.

Then you did not read the evidence because that is not at all what it is about. Once again:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religio...ce-271164.html


I wish you and your family a very merry Christmas, and hope to see you again - most probably - in the new year !

I also wish you have a memorable celebration of the birthday of Christ, and may you this year get to know personally.

Then you did not read the evidence because that is not at all what it is about.
Yes I did read the link Tommy. And I tried to find that by you claimed evidence, but it was not there.
Why can't you simply in a few lines post what specific evidence (based on what you think) is there to be found and where?


I also wish you have a memorable celebration of the birthday of Christ, and may you this year get to know personally.
This shows precisely who and what you are, Tommy. You know I am not interested in that, and that I do not intend to become a Christian EVER.

For me Christmas time is the original celebration from long before Christianity : the winter solstice, with many happy people, good food, and the family together, looking forward to the new spring and summer. And you know that very well, as we have discussed that several times in the past.

Of course : if you prefer to go to church, do so. No problem at all.
I do not suggest you should visit one of the solstice celebrations.
Please do me the curtesy not to push your entangled and delusional religious ideas upon me and others who indicate likewise feelings.

:rolleyes:

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Yes I did read the link Tommy.

Good - the way that you are talking, it did not sound like you did.

Yes I did read the link Tommy. And I tried to find that by you claimed evidence, but it was not there.
Why can't you simply in a few lines post what specific evidence (based on what you think) is there to be found and where?
Good - the way that you are talking, it did not sound like you did.
Let me repeat what I stated earlier referring to your link and your claim involved in that link :

"The link you provided indicates that all you can show in your claimed support for God's existence (idea B) are some queries on evolution - an entire different subject (idea A).

... I'm sorry to see that you still fail the understanding that the (claimed) lack of proof for evolution (idea A) is not proof for the correctness of your religious views (idea B).
"

Please note that I clearly refer in this respect to the topic "Objective Supported Evidence for "God's" existence ?" (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/objective-supported-evidence-gods-existence-271164.html), in which you repeatedly tried to "prove" God's existence NOT by providing OSE for God's existence, but by questioning several evolution queries...

So once more I ask you : Why can't you simply in a few lines post what specific evidence (based on what you think) is there to be found in that link and where? (just state post number).

Once you have done that, we can discuss again the claim in this topic : that certain persons can "know" (as in proof) that God exist.

:)

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Let me repeat what I stated earlier referring to your link and your claim involved in that link :

[B]"[I]The link you provided indicates that all you can show in your claimed support for God's existence (idea B) are some queries on evolution - an entire different subject (idea A).

I was not arguing evolution nor making inquiries on it, though you and your friends seemed to think it was important and kept bringing it up. I was speaking of any natural alternative, and it appears that you and your friends have identified evolution as the only natural alternative. And was not saying that lack of eviodence for for anything was proof of anything else.

This was explained to you many times, but perhaps you lack of understanding on this key point is why you have so mcuh difficulty understanding the truth of God's existence.

Just to help you, here is the link once again:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/religious-discussions/religio...ce-271164.html

The link is invalid, now what?

... I was speaking of any natural alternative, and it appears that you and your friends have identified evolution as the only natural alternative. And was not saying that lack of eviodence for for anything was proof of anything else.
Alternative? Alternative to WHAT? The topic was "Objective Supported Evidence for "God's" existence ?" Not "proof for the theory of evolution" !

As to the Theory of Evolution : I have never denied that there are gaps in the theory, but given time more and more gaps are filled in with OSE and/or proper supported explanations. It is a sound scientific theory, backed up with loads of support.

As to the BELIEF in one or more deities : there simply is no OSE for "God's" existence : it is a BELIEF !

So you refer now to an alternative for a wild religious claim that has not a single iota of OSE support.
So your views are not realistic, and are more of a delusional claim by a fanatic religious fundamentalist.


This was explained to you many times, but perhaps you lack of understanding on this key point is why you have so mcuh difficulty understanding the truth of God's existence.
Not really : you indeed made that unsupported statement many times. But from a realistic point of view it was not an explanation at all. It was nothing more than a nonsensical statement lacking any realism and sense of reality : you showed that you lack any sense in the fields of logic and argumentation.

I never stated that your "God" does not exist. All I stated is that the wild religious claim of existence of one or more deities is based on nothing more than hot air - totally failing any support process other than BELIEF.

===

And to return to this topic again : what I stated above is why the claim that someone "knows" that "God" exists carries no validity.
Yes you can and may BELIEVE in the existence of one or more deities.
And you can "know" (in the sense of feeling and experiencing) the existence of one or more deities.
But nobody in his or her right mind "knows" (in the sense of OSE) that "God" exists.

:)


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Yes Galveston I posted two topics on Bible contradictions.
No Galveston : I have NOT done that without supporting data.
One topic had some 50 lines of proof, another one had over 100+ lines of proof.
And I have already informed you about that now already twice !
That you are too lazy to search for these topics yourself is not my problem.
I feel no need to do that for you.

Merry Christmas, Galveston !

:)

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I didn't ask you for 100+ scripture references, only one. I don't know how to locate what you refer to, and I don't have the time or inclination to waste, as I expect I would find a link to some atheist web site.

So, if you have so many contradictions, you shouldn't have trouble posting one or two.

Merry Christmas to you too. (sincerely)

I didn't ask you for 100+ scripture references, only one....

For the third time : search this same Religious Discussions Board for these topics !

:)

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The link is invalid, now what?

Try here:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/objective-supported-evidence-gods-existence-271164.html

Alternative? Alternative to WHAT? The topic was "Objective Supported Evidence for "God's" existence ?" Not "proof for the theory of evolution" !

And the only people bringing up evolution were the atheists. Just like we see here. Here is the link:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/objective-supported-evidence-gods-existence-271164.html

*sigh* this is ridiculous.

I know god is real? <- wt*

Like common, that is ridiculous.
I'm not saying I'm an atheist, I just question things, and am not religious... I just hope there is some sort of heaven and afterlife thing and etc etc.

Not all people that question god and stuff are atheists.

If there was true proof that there is god, it would be all over the news and world and the world would truly go insane. (idk kidding kinda)

It is a belief... you believe there is a god, you don't know 100% fact.

Who made god, how does the space go on forever? Whe can't understand these things... look up the big bang theory it's cool... anways.

Accept it's a belief not a fact.

If there was true proof that there is god, it would be all over the news and world and the world would truly go insane. (idk kidding kinda)


The proof is there, but as we see on here, even when a thread of over 500 posts provides a small bit of the massive amount of evidence, a few folk simply don't want to even acknowledge it.

:eek:

Ok lets start by choosing which god. There are hundreds of gods out there but lets take yahweh the christian tribal god as an example.
Who's to say that by beliving in something we don't make it exist.

If we use the Karl R. Popper's classical method of reasoning know as modus ponens
Then god is real by definition and therfore self authenticating.

The definition of God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived.
It is greater to exist in relaity than in the mind alone.
Therefore God must exist in both the mind and reality.

Few know that the progress of science no longer depends primarily upon this method, but on the less familiar form known as modus tolens, which goes like this

If humans did't create the earth then something else must have
Humand didn't create the earth and god is something else
Therefore god created the earth.

Hope that helps

The proof is there, but as we see on here, even when a thread of over 500 posts provides a small bit of the massive amount of evidence, a few folk simply don't want to even acknowledge it.

Yes 500 posts of you posting things and everyone else telling you that you don't know what your talking about proves god.

As I've stated TJ3 your logic follows the same logic as the guy on the street corner that thinks gerbils are trying to take over the world. He has all of this evidence that he is certain proves his point however it doesn't follow standard reasoning. It is also pointless to argue with him because no matter what you tell him, his evidence is proof and no amount of real evidence is going to convince him that he is wrong.