Dear experts,

Appreciate your help on this mediating a situation with former tenants who cashed the security deposit return check (it was about 1/2 the original deposit) I sent them last week and have now come back asking for a full refund. What protection do I have, or will I eventually be forced to give them everything back because tenants always win?

Here is the background:

The tenants lived like slobs. Several times during the year I had to ask them to take garbage out, not leave garbage in common areas, etc. due to flies and complaints by other residents. About 9 months after they moved in and we were discussing the move out and their security deposit, they claimed that the real estate agent that brokered the deal and who I had paid to have the place cleaned and repaired prior to their move in had not done her job and the place was a mess on move in. They gave me pictures that I have since lost. I have receipts and communications with the real estate agent, I also know what the place looked like when the prior tenant moved out and it was not in the state that their pictures showed.

When the sloppy tenants moved out, they cleaned but the house was by no means move in ready. For example, the rugs were steam cleaned when they moved in, they did not even bother to vacuum; the tiles were dirty due to their never having cleaned, and several toilets had mildew. Particle board had to be removed from kitchen and one bathroom sink due to mold. In fairness, I fixed the kitchen leak, but missed the email for the bathroom sink and then they did not inform me again. The shower fixtures were loose to the point of unusable (I know these were tightened prior to the tenants moving in). The closets smelled of BO and had to be repainted. Furniture, kitchenware that belonged to me and was in the house when the tenants moved in were missing and gone. Two fire detectors were removed by the tenants. A set of curtains had burn marks. They say they did not touch the fire detectors (I saw them in the rooms less than 3 weeks prior); and that a contractor burned the curtains (the contractor denies this). Yes I took pictures, which they can counter with their pictures.

After they moved out, I listed out these things in an email and said they would receive a reduced refund. They came back with a list of denials. At one point one tenant said I was liable for his mail that he had not forwarded even two weeks after move out. The tenants are recent graduates from law school.

I sent a check within 21 days with an itemized list of missing and broken items, estimated replacement costs, and work I did, including my time to oversee the work and collect and send their mail. I did not send receipts as I am waiting for one more from a contractor.

What protection do I have as a landlord? I have read the other questions on security deposits and I know landlords have few to no rights, but it galls me to have to return any more money to these guys.

THANKS IN ADVANCE! Sorry for the long post.

It's not at all true that you have few to no rights in this situation. In fact, in many states and in many situations the landlord is actually favored in this situation.

Where is this property located?

It sounds to me like you've basically done everything correctly thus far. You have the real estate agent as a witness to the condition of the rental when they moved in. You have receipts for the work and cleaning that's needed to be done. I wouldn't communicate with them by email. Actual, written communication would be better.

At this point I would just sit back and wait to see what they do. I believe in some states the cashing of a check is acceptance of payment in full (that topic was posted within the last couple of months and someone cited the appropriate law.) If they take you to small claims court you have your ducks in a row, it sounds like. In most states the burden of proof (to prove that they DIDN'T do the damage you're saying they did) lies with them. You don't have to prove they did damage - they have to prove they didn't. Any written complaints you've received from other tenants (like you said) and the resulting warnings you gave them would definitely be worth bringing to court with you if it comes to that.

The only thing you mentioned that raised a red flag for me was that you charged them for your own labor. In some states you can't do that.

Other than that, I think you have a pretty good case, and it sounds like you were being pretty fair with them.

I agree with mommy. You returned an adjusted deposit and you have receipts and documentation to support the amount you deducted. Let them dispute all they want. They will have to take you to court to get anymore money. And I doubt if they will win as long as you document the charges you applied to the deposit.

It's not at all true that you have few to no rights in this situation. In fact, in many states and in many situations the landlord is actually favored in this situation.

Where is this property located?

It sounds to me like you've basically done everything correctly thus far. You have the real estate agent as a witness to the condition of the rental when they moved in. You have receipts for the work and cleaning that's needed to be done. I wouldn't communicate with them by email. Actual, written communication would be better.

At this point I would just sit back and wait to see what they do. I believe in some states the cashing of a check is acceptance of payment in full (that topic was posted within the last couple of months and someone cited the appropriate law.) If they take you to small claims court you have your ducks in a row, it sounds like. In most states the burden of proof (to prove that they DIDN'T do the damage you're saying they did) lies with them. You don't have to prove they did damage - they have to prove they didn't. Any written complaints you've received from other tenants (like you said) and the resulting warnings you gave them would definitely be worth bringing to court with you if it comes to that.

The only thing you mentioned that raised a red flag for me was that you charged them for your own labor. In some states you can't do that.

Other than that, I think you have a pretty good case, and it sounds like you were being pretty fair with them.


Rockinmommy - well the tenants have escalated since I wrote this post. One sent me a letter via email on behalf of the other three with five pages of cut and paste from California rental laws and legal language about my liability. He threatened to sue me for $23,000 (I held back about $1900 of a $3500 security deposit) and accused me of bad faith. He signed the letter esquire. To me this letter is very threatening. I called the state bar association and he is not licensed in the state of California although he took the bar in June. I am considering filing a complaint with the bar association as I don't think you are supposed to pose as an attorney and try to extort money when you are not actually practicing.

On the issue of my time, nolo landlord rights says that landlords can charge for their time, so hoping that is OK.

I am looking not to lose my shirt on this, but really feel defenseless and stressed by this. How can I find out whether cashing the check in my state constitutes agreement to the payment in full? I tried doing Google search, but nothing cogent came up.

Thanks again...

Well first stop talking to them by email.

Send them certified mail, in it, show the photos I am sure you took showing the damages, give them reciepts for the repair,

And basically get used to it, or stop being a landlord, this is normal almost common threats when they move out.

Here's a link to a recent post by a tenant for a very similar situation - just on the other side of the aisle...

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/small-claims/ca-security-deposit-can-cash-partial-refund-still-sue-248861.html

You can see where Judy (one of our real estate experts) cited laws regarding cashing of deposit-return checks in the 3rd or 4th reply.

Look, I think you're freaking out about this too much. If you legitimately withheld expenses to return the unit to the condition it was in prior to these people moving in - less normal wear and tear - then you're just doing your job. These dorky ex-tenants should obviously be spending more time studying for the bar and less time harassing them. They are trying to intimidate you.

At this point I think you should have no more communication with them. If they would happen to sue you, you have the evicence you would need to refute their claims.

Don't bother with the Bar Assn, anyone can call themselves Esquire. If he referred to himself as LLD or Atty at Law that would be impresonating an attorney.

As Chuck said, tenants routinely make such threats. The law states that you have to return the deposit oran accounting of how it was used within 21 days. You did that. They can take you to court to dispute the charges, but you have the receipts for the work and generally the courts will accept them.

The worst that can happen if they take you to court is some of your itemized expenses may be disallowed. But since, you followed the law by returning part of the deposit with an itemized list, you have no liability.

Unless a judge thinks you did act in bad faith I don't see you in any real trouble.

As for them cashing the check, no that won't constitute acceptance.

Please understand you are going to have tennants from >> well really bad ones over time. Read some of the posts we have here, you may get phsycally threatened, you may show up and the fridge, stove are all missing. You will have them rent and not pay, then go to court when you try to evict and claim illness and sorry stories

You will come in one day with them moved out, holes in the walls, carpet destroyed and more.

I have had dozens of rentals of the years and have seen so much, You may be lucky, but if you are renting to students you will have more than average problems

Fr_chuck, rockinmommy, scottgem - thanks for your advice. You guys are good. I am going to take a look at that link you posted. Although I think I itemized correctly, the issue is hassle factor. They are unemployed and have time on their hands and plenty of arrogance. The other residents thanked me when they moved out. So my options are 1) cave; 2) find a friend attorney to write a letter back 3) try to negotiate. I will keep you updated. This forum is great!

If you are going to be in the landlord business get an attorney, ( not a friend) I will never use a friend for my attorney.

You start with getting them to tell you what rights and limitations you have. Next get approved forms to use.

so my options are 1) cave; 2) find a friend attorney to write a letter back 3) try to negotiate.

I think you have a better option. Call their bluff! Either ignore them (which is my recommendation) or write them a letter stating, that you have complied the law, that your charges are righteous and supported by documentation and if they don't like it, feel free to file suit.

I definitely would not cave or negotiate. It appears you have done everything correctly and would prevail in a suit.

But Chuck is right. If you are running any business especially one that deals with the end consumer, you should have an attorney.

so my options are 1) cave; 2) find a friend attorney to write a letter back 3) try to negotiate. Hello sandy:

You're not listening... You have option 4) - DO NOTHING.

Well, there's one thing you can do, and I'll get to that in a second, but beyond that, you've DONE everything a landlord is required to do. Let THEM make the next move. Don't worry about the letters and the emails - they mean NOTHING. The only thing you need to respond to in the future, is a summons should they sue you.

But they WON'T. They'll try to INTIMIDATE you, which is what they're doing, and it looks like it's working... DON'T let them do that...

Ok, here's the thing you NEED to do. Go READ your California landlord/tenant law. We have a copy right here at the top of the real estate page on a sticky note. Once you've read 'em, you'll be on EQUAL footing with the lawyers.

Besides, how can you go into a business without knowing the RULES of that business?? The truth is, you cant!

excon

so my options are 1) cave; 2) find a friend attorney to write a letter back 3) try to negotiate. i will keep you updated. this forum is great!

As everyone else has told you (and it DOES appear that it's not sinking in for some reason)... at this point you DO NOTHING!

You've fulfilled all of your obligations as required by law and good landlord / tenant etiquette. IGNORE THEM.

As everyone else has told you (and it DOES appear that it's not sinking in for some reason).... at this point you DO NOTHING!

You've fulfilled all of your obligations as required by law and good landlord / tenant etiquette. IGNORE THEM.

Ok guys - I HAVE read the laws, the problem is the interpretation in a tenant friendly community. In any case, I got it - I am going to stay strong on this one.

Unless there is something you aren't telling us, the only thing subject to interpretation is the validity of your charges. If you have good receipts and valid charges you have nothing to worry about.

There is no interpretation of the return of the deposit. The law says the full deposit or an accounting of how the deposit was spent has to be sent within 21 days. You did that. I don't see any wiggle room on that.

Unless there is something you aren't telling us, the only thing subject to interpretation is the validity of your charges. If you have good receipts and valid charges you have nothing to worry about.

There is no interpretation of the return of the deposit. The law says the full deposit or an accounting of how the deposit was spent has to be sent within 21 days. You did that. I don't see any wiggle room on that.

No, I reread my email and that is pretty straight. I did not mention in my prior note that one of the guys locked himself out twice and then climbed onto the fence from a neighbor's house to get in to his, waking the neighbors on his noisy route. The second time he did this, he fell into her patio, broke an outdoor umbrella and the fence. She thought she was getting broken into, but kindly did not call the police since he had done this before. I asked him to make restitution and apologize to the neighbors.

As the tenant whose other thread was cited in this question, I'm interested in how this turns out as well.

We have read the California codes several times as well as information from the Fair Housing Board and the dca.gov publications. The codes are very clear about what landlords are allowed to deduct and what itemization is needed.

If you kept $1900 and did not provide the required documentation or took deductions not allowed by the codes (as our landlord did), I can understand why they would be upset and feel that you acted in bad faith. And in California, if a judge agrees, the penalty can be up to twice the amount of the entire deposit.

What I don't understand are landlords who collect tens of thousands of dollars from tenants yet aren't familiar with the simple laws of their states regarding their own business. The CA codes are clearly spelled out on several websites.

As for the specific items you mentioned, I don't know how your labor for forwarding their mail would be allowed under any of the codes. Did you give them an hourly rate for that as required? Was it reasonable?

I sent a check within 21 days with an itemized list of missing and broken items, estimated replacement costs, and work I did, including my time to oversee the work and collect and send their mail. I did not send receipts as I am waiting for one more from a contractor.Hello again:

As good as we are, it looks like we missed it. I don't know where Kara's post went, but she's right. Good for her. You, apparently, failed to follow the law. That changes everything...

Where, in the process, are you? I think we owe you more advice.

excon

I removed Kara's post because she was replying to a post of mine that I deleted because I goofed making it an orphan

The issue of the recipts may become important. So Kara, can you cite the exact code statute that says the landlord is required to send receipts with the itemization?

What I don't understand are landlords who collect tens of thousands of dollars from tenants yet aren't familiar with the simple laws of their states regarding their own business. The CA codes are clearly spelled out on several websites.



I don't disagree with you. It's just like any business... there are good "____________" (fill in the blank) out there doing business, and there are bad "______________". Unfortunately, it's the bad scenarios that always get the attention and make everyone good get lumped into the rest.

There are landlords out there who routinely just think they can get away with keeping security deposits and tenants out there who don't take care of the property and then can't understand why they don't get their deposit back.

It's kind of like people who have children who have no idea what they're doing.

In this case I don't see that the landlord is abusing or manipulating the situation. Time to forward their mail... eh, may be pushing it a little, but at the same time she shouldn't have to spend her time to do that...

ORIGINAL POSTER... for future reference... write "No longer at this address" on all mail that still comes to tenants who have moved out and leave it in the mailbox. It's not your job to forward their mail.

Civil Code Section 1950.5(g)(4)

The whole code should be read starting at 1950.5 for it to make sense. The best and easiest resource is the dca.ca.gov site which explains security deposit law and references each specific code.

Here's an excerpt from that site:

The landlord also must send you copies of receipts for the charges that the landlord incurred to repair or clean the rental unit and that the landlord deducted from your security deposit. The landlord must include the receipts with the itemized statement. The landlord must follow these rules:

If the landlord or the landlord's employees did the work - The itemized statement must describe the work performed, including the time spent and the hourly rate charged. The hourly rate must be reasonable.
If another person or business did the work - The landlord must provide you copies of the person's or business' invoice or receipt. The landlord must provide the person's or business' name, address and telephone number on the invoice or receipt, or in the itemized statement.
If the landlord deducted for materials or supplies - The landlord must provide you a copy of the invoice or receipt. If the item used to repair or clean the unit is something that the landlord purchases regularly or in bulk, the landlord must reasonably document the item's cost (for example, by an invoice, a receipt or a vendor's price list)
If the landlord made a good faith estimate of charges - The landlord is allowed to make a good faith estimate of charges and include the estimate in the itemized statement in two situations: (1) the repair is being done by the landlord or an employee and cannot reasonably be completed within the 21 days, or (2) services or materials are being supplied by another person or business and the landlord does not have the invoice or receipt within the 21 days. In either situation, the landlord may deduct the estimated amount from your security deposit. In situation (2), the landlord must include the name, address and telephone number of the person or business that is supplying the services or materials.
Within 14 calendar days after completing the repairs or receiving the invoice or receipt, the landlord must mail or deliver to you a correct itemized statement, the invoices and receipts described above, and any refund to which you are entitled.

The landlord must send the itemized statement, copies of invoices or receipts, and any good faith estimate to you at the address that you provide. If you do not provide an address, the landlord must send these documents to the address of the rental unit that you moved from.

The landlord is not required to send you copies of invoices or receipts, or a good faith estimate, if the repairs or cleaning cost less than $126 or if you waive your right to receive them

I don't disagree with you. It's just like any business.......there are good "____________" (fill in the blank) out there doing business, and there are bad "______________". Unfortunately, it's the bad scenarios that always get the attention and make everyone good get lumped into the rest.

There are landlords out there who routinely just think they can get away with keeping security deposits and tenants out there who don't take care of the property and then can't understand why they don't get their deposit back.

It's kind of like people who have children who have no idea what they're doing.

In this case I don't see that the landlord is abusing or manipulating the situation. Time to forward their mail.........eh, may be pushing it a little, but at the same time she shouldn't have to spend her time to do that............

ORIGINAL POSTER......for future reference........write "No longer at this address" on all mail that still comes to tenants who have moved out and leave it in the mailbox. It's not your job to forward their mail.

I would like to clarify - I did NOT charge them for time to forward their mail, nor the cost of the postage. When I told them I would leave their mail out for pick up, one of them said I would be liable if anything was lost since he did not have time to pick it up on the days I designated. One of them did not have an address at the time so forwarding was an issue for him. I DID charge them for time I took to clean up after them. According to my read of the law, I am allowed to do this and I charged the standard rate.

Additionally, I was waiting for a final receipt before forwarding the full package. This I got yesterday afternoon and so am mailing the package today. Their letter does not ask for the receipts by the way, this is not the bad faith they are accusing me of, but yes I now know they should get copies.

The lease the three original tenants signed clearly states any disputes are to be resolved with mediation and that if they lose, they are liable for my attorney fees. It does not go the other way. However, in the US anyone can sue anyone for anything and again, because they are recent graduates, they may think this is easy to do.

My issue is not that I don't understand the law, it is that I live in a VERY tenant friendly city and am dealing with three junior lawyers who are not bright, and are unemployed and have no money so are coming after me with vengeance. My attorney will happily fight this, but it will cost me $500 out the door for the first letter, and another $500 to reply. There is no guarantee that his letters will stop these not very bright bulbs. The reason I asked the initial question was to figure out what other people's experience was. Now I have to figure out whether 1) I take the sure route out of hassle by paying the former tenants;2) fight now and potentially have to pay more; or 3) ignore them as was advised by this panel and then potentially have to pay later still.

I've been a landlord for nearly 15 years. I've dealt with some version of this story a number of times. Even a couple of times with tenants who were attorneys and once a girl who was engaged to one.

I've done exactly what I advised you to do each time. Sent the required documentation, along with whatever was left of the deposit. Then after that I DID NOTHING. It is nerve wracking... sitting back and waiting to see if you'll be sued. And if your city is tenant-friendly, then I can understand why you're that much more tempted to cave in. I just think you're running a business, and you have to weigh out your options and act in what you feel is the most cost conscious way.

I will tell you that I've not had any tenants follow through with actual law suits. One of the ones I mentioned above sent me threatening letters and such for about a year. Then it stopped and they went away. I'm confident that if they had sued I would have prevailed, as I followed the law. But I was still worried about it.

At this point, with what we now understand about the receipts (thanks, KaraG), I would send them a "revised" letter, including your accounting of the deductions, copies of the receipts, and a copy of the law. Highlight the portions that pertain to this situation. SHOW them that you know the law, you know you followed it, and tell them you consider this matter closed.

THEN, I'd sit back and wait.

Hello again, sandy:

Even though your exposure to liability has changed somewhat with the receipt issue, The advice mommy is giving you is correct.

Besides, there really is nothing more you can do at this point... Until a lawsuit is filed, this is an intimidation game. Do NOT be the first one to cave.

In terms of you're living in a tenant friendly state, I agree. But, that doesn't mean that every location in California is tenant friendly, or that every judge will interpret the law in favor of the tenant. Many judges, especially in small claims, and in counties like Orange, look beyond the letter of the law to see if they can find "reasonableness" of action.

Yes, you should have had the work done and the receipts in the mail by the deadline. However, missing it by a few days shows, while not exact compliance, it certainly shows that you weren't trying to rip anybody off.

I still think you've got a good case. After the letter with the receipts, I'd let them make the next move.

excon