If the SON and the FATHER are one and the same, yet different (a concept which I am still not able to understand fully), whom do we pray to.
Should I pray to Jesus? Or, should I pray to a Christian God?

You pray to God * the Father, as Jesus hisself taugh us to pray and
( depending on your desired use of terms) either in Jesus Name, or though Jesus.

Yes, you pray to the father, as jesus did. God knows your heart:
Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thine inner chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee.
Mat 6:7 And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat 6:8 Be not therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

That question does puzzle me a bit, but I think that when you are praying to God, you are also praying to Jesus. Though Jesus is considered the son of Christ, I believe that if you're addressing either God or Jesus in a prayer, you are addressing them both as one... you understand what I mean? I hope that helped a bit. Have a wonderful day!

<3 kt

John 16:23-24
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
(KJV)

if the SON and the FATHER are one and the same, yet different (a concept which i am still not able to understand fully)
No one does. It's a mystery how that works.

I think it is proper to pray to the Father in Jesus name, however I pray to the Lord Jesus all the time. (it works that way too) ;)

It really is not difficult when you understand how they are one. A good example is a marriage. Is not a husband and wife said to be one? Do not the three musketeers say "all for one and one for all?" God the Father and Christ the Son are one in agreement, objective and purpose. Like father like son. Christ thinks, feels and acts as his Father does. Thus they are one. So they are two distict persons with the same ideals. That being said, Jesus and God says we should pray to God as our Heavenly Father.

It really is not difficult when you understand how they are one. A good example is a marriage. Is not a husband and wife said to be one? Do not the three musketeers say "all for one and one for all?" God the Father and Christ the Son are one in agreement, objective and purpose. Like father like son. Christ thinks, feels and acts as his Father does. Thus they are one. So they are two distict persons with the same ideals. That being said, Jesus and God says we should pray to God as our Heavenly Father.

Hmmmm? Nope they are exactly the same person in a different form.

Think about it, a person cannot be his own father and his own son at the same time. If they were the same person Jesus would not have said "my father is greater than I am".-John 14:28 This shows that jesus is not the father but has a father and that his father is "greater" than he is. If they were the same person they would be equal not different.

Besides the material universe, let alone the earth, cannot contain God. Thus king Solomon said "the heaven (the sky) and heaven of heavens (outer space or the material universe) cannot contain thee".- 1 Kings 8:27 thus the universe cannot hold or house God and yet Jesus lived on earth. Again it shows that they are two individuals not one with some abnormal split personality as some misinformed people suggest. God is more massive than the material universe and too powerful to live within it. He does not have to leave the spirit realm but he does send his angelic sons to earth and he sent Jesus to us as well. It seems that when angels enter into our material dimension they reduce themselves in size.

Patriarch, some people don't want to take away from the divinity of jesus, by saying he isn't equal with god. I think it's in the way we ourselves think god should be. I don't think we have enough knowledge about god to make a conclusion. But, we can surmise that with the holy spirit working through flesh, god can do anything he wants. Jesus was the only accepted sacrifice for our sins. Jesus said he was before abraham. Jesus walked on water. Jesus was born of a virgin. And most importantly to us, jesus said he was the way to god. So his divinity is complete, and we should have faith that it is.

Patriarch,

I beg to differ. Jesus also said, I and my father are one... he said if you have seen me you've seen the father. I don't have to THINK about it... my mind is NOT like God's mind. I don't understand it but I believe it. The three are one of the same in different forms. MY MIND says there is no way... but GOD is bigger than us.

Patriarch,

I beg to differ. Jesus also said, i and my father are one.....he said if you have seen me you've seen the father. I don't have to THINK about it...my mind is NOT like God's mind. I don't understand it but I believe it. The three are one of the same in different forms. MY MIND says there is no way....but GOD is bigger than us.

A husband and wife is said to be one as well, but they are not the same person. This is similar to how God and Jesus are one.

patriarch, some people don't want to take away from the divinity of jesus, by saying he isn't equal with god. i think it's in the way we ourselves think god should be. i don't think we have enough knowledge about god to make a conclusion. but, we can surmise that with the holy spirit working through flesh, god can do anything he wants. jesus was the only accepted sacrifice for our sins. jesus said he was before abraham. jesus walked on water. jesus was born of a virgin. and most importantly to us, jesus said he was the way to god. so his divinity is complete, and we should have faith that it is.

I do know that Jesus is divine, just as angels are divine, but being divine does not make one equal to God. Angels are spirits and God is a Spirit but that in itself does not make them equal. Just as one man is just as another man but that does not make them the same person.

I do know that Jesus is divine, just as angels are divine, but being divine does not make one equal to God.
No? What does it make Jesus then? Equal to Ganesh?

Patriarch,

I beg to differ. Jesus also said, i and my father are one.....he said if you have seen me you've seen the father. I don't have to THINK about it...my mind is NOT like God's mind. I don't understand it but I believe it. The three are one of the same in different forms. MY MIND says there is no way....but GOD is bigger than us.


I agree they are one in being in harmony and agreement, having the same purpose in mind. They are in separate forms because one is the Father of the other and the other is the son of the Father. It really is simple logic, we see this all around us in humans. We are like God being made in his image. Just as a man can procreate a son from himself so has God. God did not make the universe for him to enter into it, for there is no reason for him to.

Colossians 1:13 "his dear Son" Jesus is God's Son not God himself
Colossians 1:15 "image of...God" Jesus is in God's image not the actual God
John 3:16 "God...gave his...Son" God gave his Son not himself
John 10:33 "maketh thyself God" The Jews mistakenly thought Jesus
Claimed to be God
John 10:36 "I am the Son of God" Jesus did not nor has he ever claimed to
Be God
John 1:18 "no man has seen God" No person has ever seen God but
They have seen Jesus

A husband and wife is said to be one as well, but they are not the same person. This is similar to how God and Jesus are one.
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons in one Godhead.

Think of an apple -- apple skin, apple flesh, apple core -- three distinct and recognizable entities in one substance, an apple. An apple skin is different from apple flesh is different from an apple core, yet all three have "appleness."

Think of me. I am a daughter, a mother, and a wife. All are under one "umbrella," Wondergirl, but each one acts differently because of the role that is played. I act differently as a daughter from how I act as a mother and those two are different from how I act as a wife.

It really is simple logic
No, the Trinity is not explained by logic. We can try to use common ideas to explain how all three Persons of the Trinity are God, but it is not logical or even humanly understandable.

Jesus has never claimed to be God
Yes, he has. John 10:30 -- "I and the Father are One."

No person has ever seen God
Yes. Check the OT stories. Moses' hair turned white because of it.

I agree they are one in being in harmony and agreement, having the same purpose in mind. They are in separate forms because one is the Father of the other and the other is the son of the Father. It really is simple logic, we see this all around us in humans. We are like God being made in his image. Just as a man can procreate a son from himself so has God. God did not make the universe for him to enter into it, for there is no reason for him to.

Colossians 1:13 "his dear Son" Jesus is God's Son not God himself
Colossians 1:15 "image of...God" Jesus is in God's image not the actual God
John 3:16 "God...gave his...Son" God gave his Son not himself
John 10:33 "maketh thyself God" The Jews mistakenly thought Jesus
claimed to be God
John 10:36 "I am the Son of God" Jesus did not nor has he ever claimed to
be God
John 1:18 "no man has seen God" No person has ever seen God but
they have seen Jesus


Patriarch,

No one has seen God as God! The problem is, you don't understand the scripture. The first book of the Gospel of John... read it. It says that in the beginning was the Word (capital W) and the Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD... then drop down a bit and you will see that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus is God and until you understand this... you misunderstand scripture.

I would also like to point out that when the Pharasee's spoke to the Lord Jesus and they were trying to trip him up while talking about Abraham... the Lord Jesus said to them... Before Abraham was... I AM. Now... hmmm? Where else have we heard I AM. Oh yeah! Moses was told (by GOD)to go tell Phararoh that I AM had sent him... funny thing about all this is... the jewish pharisees had NO PROBLEM understanding what Jesus had just said. They picked up stones to stone him for saying such a thing. Jesus is GOD. Then add to that... when Jesus said.. if you have seen me you have seen the Father, and I and my Father are one. Jesus is GOD... how many ways can he say it?

In the eyes of the Lord, a married couple is considered one. NOT THE SAME THING in anyway as comparing that to GOD the Father, the son, and the holy spirit. People get divorced all the time and they are "one" again with someone else. Sorry Pat...

Jesus made the WORLD.. he was there in the beginning.. he is the alpha and the Omega. You should consider these things before you continue to stay in your false doctrine. That is my advise.

It is difficult for the flesh body born of this earth to recognize the spiritual realm of life as truely being a second reality to what we see and live.
To understand we need to open our minds to that reality. .

I can picture God's right hand reaching out to us through the spiritual realm into the realm of life we know on earth. This right hand of God would be Jesus, flesh of this earth! Emmanuel

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

As for the question, who do we pray to? Follow Christ, by praying to the Father as Christ did. Christ told us how to pray.. However when we call upon Jesus by asking in His name for whatever we hold in our heart. We are asking for God to offer what we need, just as a child would ask of help. All glory shown to God for all.

This is a great question and one I think all should understand so as not to pray amiss.

The trinity does play in this, but having complete understanding of the trinity is not necessary to understand how all three play a part in our prayers.

~Jesus our mediator
When Jesus died on the cross the veil in the church was rent from top to bottom. This was also symbolic. Meaning a priest is no longer our mediator to God. Jesus became our mediator to God.
1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

~The Holy Spirit
In a conversation between Jesus and his disciples before Jesus was crucified, his disciples were understandably worried and did not want Jesus to die. Not only for the obvious, but because they would miss Jesus dearly. They would miss walking with Him, talking to Him and learning from Him. Jesus then told them not to worry about that because God would send them (and those of us who are saved) the Comforter. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit.
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."
In this next verse Jesus explains who will receive the Comforter and we learn the Comforter is the Holy Spirit.
John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
Here Jesus is telling his disciples that God will send His Holy Spirit to those who believe in Him so that God will, not only be with them forever, but dwell in them forever.
Therefore, upon salvation God sends you the Holy Spirit, not BEFORE, but upon your askance of Him saving your soul.

The Holy Spirit not only dwells in you to lead you and guide you in your Christian walk, but the Holy Spirit is who prays for you.
Romans 8:26 & 27 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with great groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

The Holy Spirit searches your heart and He is the one who prays for you. For example: God is not going to even hear the prayer of someone asking for a million dollars. Why? Because the Holy Spirit intercesses your prayers. The Holy Spirit is not going to take something like that to the Father. The Holy Spirit searches our hearts and prays for us. This does not mean we shouldn't use words when we pray, or that we should just sit there because we are not doing the work. The point is that the Holy Spirit is not going to take the things you ask for amiss to the Father.

On the same note there has been plenty of times when I have literally knelt and not said a word. I have just cried. I know that God knows my heart and He knows what I came to Him for. I didn't have to say anything and I knew the Spirit did what He does and read my heart and took it to God who chooses to answer.

Now let me put this all together and give you a definitive answer to your question. It matters not whether you address God or Jesus because it is the Holy Spirit who does the work. The Holy Spirit knows who to take your prayers to and what of your prayers to take. All three, the Holy Spirit, Jesus and God are going to know your prayers because the Holy Spirit takes your prayers and Jesus is our mediater to God, and of course God listens and chooses to answer or not. Therefore the exact name you address is of no import. Just so long as you understand and KNOW that God is the one who is receiving your prayers and answering them.

I hope this helps!

And just to add a couple extra things...

There are some people out there who believe in God but are not saved who actually thinks God hears their prayers. For example they believe in God, but have not yet turned their lives over to Him and they will pray to God when they are having a hard time. The ONLY sinners prayer that God hears is the one that is asking for salvation. Why? Because the Holy Spirit prays for us. If you are not saved you do not have the Holy Spirit in you. Therefore, your prayers are not heard.

Another thing... and I might get some flack for this from some Catholics, but I don't care because it is the truth...
As I said before the Holy Spirit is our intercessor to God. Therefore, the Holy Spirit takes our prayers to God. So when someone prays to Mary or any other saint in heaven it does not go to that saint. The Holy Spirit takes our prayers to the one who deals with them and that is God. Mary does not take our prayers to God and nor does any other saint. The Holy Spirit does and the Holy Spirit goes straight to the ONE He is supposed to.

The Holy Spirit is no less important than Jesus and God. He is an equal in the Trinity that is why He is part of the Trinity.

The Holy Spirit not only dwells in you to lead you and guide you in your Christian walk, but the Holy Spirit is who prays for you.
Romans 8:26 & 27 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with great groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

An example of help and making intercess for us. Is that understanding of our needs as Christ noted in Luke 10:40-41 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? Bid her therefore that she help me.And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

You make you choices in life by the those intercessions which the Holy Spirits leads within you.



The Holy Spirit searches your heart and He is the one who prays for you. For example: God is not going to even hear the prayer of someone asking for a million dollars. Why? Because the Holy Spirit intercesses your prayers. The Holy Spirit is not going to take something like that to the Father. The Holy Spirit searches our hearts and prays for us. This does not mean we shouldn't use words when we pray, or that we should just sit there because we are not doing the work. The point is that the Holy Spirit is not going to take the things you ask for amiss to the Father.

The Holy Spirit will help and comfort us to bring intercess of Our Father's Will when we listen and hear. It is very important that we pray, pray for our enemies (Matthew 5:44)that they might find their way, pray to give thanks (2 Cr 1:11) and praise, and God asks us to remind Him of His promises (Isa 43:26)

Hebrew 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrew 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Christ brought us intercession John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The Three in One

The Holy Spirit is no less important than Jesus and God. He is an equal in the Trinity that is why He is part of the Trinity.

Note the Very Presents of the Holy Spirit is Christ Jesus

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.


John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Note the Very Presents of the Holy Spirit is Christ Jesus

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.


John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


Absolutely! I couldn't agree more. My point was not to explain the Trinity though as we have done that many times over in past posts, but rather was to help the original poster understand how all 3 work as one as far as prayer goes. And to help the original poster understand how the Holy Spirit plays a huge part, not only in our Christian walk, but in our prayers which was the question. The poster made mention of the Trinity yet never mentioned the Holy Ghost who is very much God and very much a part of our prayers.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons in one Godhead.

Think of an apple -- Fruit cannot be compared to God only man can since man is in God's image, not plants or animals.

Think of me. I am a daughter, a mother, and a wife. All are under one "umbrella," Wondergirl, but each one acts differently because of the role that is played. I act differently as a daughter from how I act as a mother and those two are different from how I act as a wife.

While that is true you are not three separate individuals. You are never at more than one place at a time, and yet while Jesus was on earth his Father, God, was in Heaven.

while Jesus was on earth his Father, God, was in Heaven.
He was? And where is that??

(Good grief! )

[QUOTE=Wondergirl;1293171]God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons in one Godhead.

The term nor the suggestion of the term"godhead" is in the Bible. This is a traditional teaching of men who claim to represent the cloth. I have never read anything that says that God is a Son. But the Bible does reveal that God has a Son. In fact he has many sons.

He was? And where is that??

You mean you don't know where heaven is?? :confused:

[QUOTE=Wondergirl;1297229]He was? And where is that??

Matthew 3:16, 17 God spoke from the heavens while Jesus was on earth after his baptism
By the way God has no need to be baptized, but his Son did because
He had to learn obedience
Hebrews 5:6, again, God does not need to learn to obey himself.

No, the Trinity is not explained by logic. We can try to use common ideas to explain how all three Persons of the Trinity are God, but it is not logical or even humanly understandable.

No it is dogma that has brainwashed the masses in order to distort the true identity and roles of God and Christ.

Yes, he has. John 10:30 -- "I and the Father are One."


One in this case indicates unity, being one does not being literally the same person.
For Christ also prayed that his disciples "all may be one", you do not assume they would be many persons in one abnormal head do you. Jesus wanted them to be unified and harmonious just as he and his Father are--John 17:21

Yes. Check the OT stories. Moses' hair turned white because of it.

This is a misunderstanding because Ex 33:20 say "shall no man see me and live" and John 1:18 says no man has seen God, thus Moses did not actually see God but merely an angelic representative of God. Otherwise you would mean that what God said and what St. John wrote was a lie.

Again, pray only to the Father of Jesus, God, and not to Jesus. Jesus never told anyone to pray to himself. Listen to Jesus and not men on earth. Jesus says pray to his Heavenly Father God.----Matthew 6:9, John 20:17 Jesus also prayed to God--John 11:41

Hebrews 5:6, again, God does not need to learn to obey himself

Try Hebrews 5:8 ;) Good points too BTW.

Matthew 3:16, 17 God spoke from the heavens while Jesus was on earth after his baptism
By the way God has no need to be baptized, but his Son did because
he had to learn obedience
Hebrews 5:6, again, God does not need to learn to obey himself.
God the Father and God the Son are one with God the Holy Spirit. It is a mystery and no one can explain it. Your little attempts at logic do not explain it either.

[QUOTE=Patriarch


Try Hebrews 5:8 ;) Good points too BTW.

I thank you for the correction.

It is a mystery and no one can explain it. Your little attempts at logic do not explain it either.[/QUOTE]

It is a mystery only because it is not of divine origin but is of pagan origin, from ancient Egypt, Babylon and Greece. Mixing pagan beliefs with what the Bible reveals will confuse anyone.

... noone except those who are truly led by God's Holy Spirit.

Again, pray only to the Father of Jesus, God, and not to Jesus. Jesus never told anyone to pray to himself. Listen to Jesus and not men on earth. Jesus says pray to his Heavenly Father God.----Matthew 6:9, John 20:17 Jesus also prayed to God--John 11:41
Of course, this involves Jesus' two natures, divine and human. You apparently reject the divine. Do you call yourself a Christian? Or something else?

Of course, this involves Jesus' two natures, divine and human. You apparently reject the divine. Do you call yourself a Christian? or something else?

Though I agree that Jesus is divine and was human, it still does not change the fact that some "humans" who call themselves "christian" and yet fail to listen to Christ but only to men. Christ never told anyone to pray to him. He says pray to the person he prays to. Being Christian means being a follower of Christ. Since Christ never prayed to himself, christians in imitation of Christ pray to God only. It is the Devil who wants you to disregard what Jesus says.

Also I do not reject his divinity but keep it in proper perspective. He is only second in command. God is first.

Though I agree that Jesus is divine and was human, it still does not change the fact that some "humans" who call themselves "christian" and yet fail to listen to Christ but only to men. Christ never told anyone to pray to him. He says pray to the person he prays to. Being Christian means being a follower of Christ. Since Christ never prayed to himself, christians in imitation of Christ pray to God only. It is the Devil who wants you to disregard what Jesus says.

Also I do not reject his divinity but keep it in proper perspective. He is only second in command. God is first.
Independent Baptist?

I've never heard of a Christian who rejected the Trinity. That's why I'm curious.

Independent Baptist?

I've never heard of a Christian who rejected the Trinity. That's why I'm curious.

I am a true Christian. I listen to what the Bible says over a dogmatic philosophical traditional teaching that has no basis in scripture. The belief in a triune god dates back to ancient, pre-christian times. Christ was not believed to be part of a trinity till after the second century. His followers never thought him to be God on earth nor God period. The true christian religion suffered apostacy about the 3rd or 4th century. Constantine, a pagan ruler declared Christianity a state religion and at the council of Nicea declared Christ to be God for the first time, which of course has no basis in the Bible. Many so called Christian religions formed from the original one and taught doctrine mixed with pagan beliefs to attract pagans, for increased membership, to their apostatized form of Christianity. The doctrine of the trinity has been taught to the masses ever since. Before one claims belief in something it should be well known first. Research can give one knowledge of what one worships. I am a Christian who believes what the first century Christians believed. Most so-called "Christian" religions are a deviation from the true teachings of the Bible.

His followers never thought him to be God on earth nor God period.
Then how do you explain frequent statements by Jesus' disciples when they referred to Jesus as God, such as Thomas's "My Lord and my God"?

Are you in a church body? What does it call itself? How is the Bible interpreted?

Independent Baptist?

I've never heard of a Christian who rejected the Trinity. That's why I'm curious.

In short, I am a Christian who believes what the first century Christians taught, despite how I might have felt or what men may say. I respect all people and their right to believe whatever they wish but I am under obligation to share the truth with all. There are many false prophets in the world and some in sheeps covering. Also the devil's ministers keep transforming themselves as ministers of righteousness---2 Corinthians 11:13-15

Then how do you explain frequent statements by Jesus' disciples when they referred to Jesus as God, such as Thomas's "My Lord and my God"?

This was simply an ecstatic reaction of astonishment before the Lord Jesus. Just because someone says "my God" before someone it does not in itself mean that they are calling that person God. People use this expression quite often today. Jesus disciples knew him to be "the Son of the living God."--Matthew 16:15,16

Are you in a church body? What does it call itself?

Yes, I belong to "The Way".--Acts 9:2, 19:9,23, 22:4, 24:22

How is the Bible interpreted?

The Bible interprets itself when we pray for God's guidance by holy spirit as we study and meditate upon it systematically and regularly.--Genesis 40:8

Patriarch, I understand where you're coming from. It hard to grasp what is god, because he's spirit. I really don't even try, I just attempt to understand the bible, and pay attention to the spirit's promptings within myself. Once we get to a certain point, we can be like jesus said, that we can be one with him, like he's one with the father, so that we'll know he loves us as much as he loves jesus.

patriarch, i understand where you're coming from. it hard to grasp what is god, because he's spirit. i really don't even try, i just attempt to understand the bible, and pay attention to the spirit's promptings within myself. once we get to a certain point, we can be like jesus said, that we can be one with him, like he's one with the father, so that we'll know he loves us as much as he loves jesus.

I appreciate your kind expressions. And that is why we are all here, for understanding.

[QUOTE=Wondergirl;1297391]Then how do you explain frequent statements by Jesus' disciples when they referred to Jesus as God, such as Thomas's "My Lord and my God"?

By the way the disciples never once called Jesus God. But they did call him the Son of God. Even a pagan soldier, upon Jesus death, called him "the Son of God",--Matthew 27:54 Thus showing or indicating what was being taught or said about Christ. Not that he was God but that he was the Son of God.

Patriarch, you're welcome. I'm interested in what you have to say, because I see a working of god on earth through his holy spirit. This is internal, and jesus was flesh as we are, and I wonder if the same spirit didn't work the same way in jesus. These questions, I believe, will lead to a conclusion that is at the heart of being a christian, mainly because of jesus' sinlessness. Also, I know that pagan apostacy was already in the early church, so I can accept the explanation of the added ideas to the bible.

Jesus. These questions, I believe, will lead to a conclusion that is at the heart of being a christian, mainly because of jesus' sinlessness.

The heart of being Christian as read in the Bible is displaying faith in Christ and his teachings and commands. Be his follower.--Matthew 11:28-30, 16:24, 1Pe 2:21

Thanks for the company and exchange of views. To all a good night.:)

I though they were different aspects of each other.
Like people
You have your body, spirit and soul
God is the soul
Jesus is the body (embodiement of God)
Holy Spirit-well you can figure it out
That is how I have always thought of the Trinity as one-

Are you in a church body? What does it call itself? How is the Bible interpreted?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I belong to "The Way".--Acts 9:2, 19:9,23, 22:4, 24:22

How is the Bible interpreted?

The Bible interprets itself when we pray for God's guidance by holy spirit as we study and meditate upon it systematically and regularly.--Genesis 40:8

carla123 agrees: Oh! I have been praying to Jesus all along.. Was I doing a big mistake then?

No. Fr_Chuck is correct. That is the way that Jesus taught us to pray.

However, we also pray directly to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit.

In addition, if you are Catholic, you may pray to the Saints for intercession before God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Carla123,

Foremost, there no where is the bible that says "The Son and the Father are one and the same".

I believe we can pray to either of them or both of them.

We can somehow explain this using 2 perspective--human and biblical.

Human Perspective:
Assume that you are a good royalty (a queen or king) who has a son and many servants, are you going to get jealous to your son if the peasants are requesting something from him or giving him praise?

Biblical Perspective:
1) God never prohibit us to pray to Jesus.
2) God exalted Jesus so that every knee shall bow before Him. (Phil 2:9-10)
3) Jesus encouraged the apostles to pray to the Father in His (Jesus) name. Jesus is our ONLY mediator to the Father. (John 15:16; I Tim 2:5)
4) There's nothing wrong with having two Lords. (Psalm 110:1)

In addition, if you are Catholic, you may pray to the Saints for intercession before God.


Scripture prohibits communication with the dead.

Carla123,

Foremost, there no where is the bible that says "The Son and the Father are one and the same".



John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

In addition, if you are Catholic, you may pray to the Saints for intercession before God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Don't be deceived by false teaching, because Christ is by promise, the intercession vine to the Father forever.

Hebrews 7:24-28 But [this man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, [maketh] the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

___________________________________________

Romans 8: 34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Romans 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

That's right but it doesn't say "I and [my] Father are one and the same";)

That's right but it doesn't say "I and [my] Father are one and the same";)

Depends upon what you means as "the same". If you mean that they are both God, scripture is very clear that they are both God. If you mean that they are the same person, then no, because there are three persons in the trinity and the Father and the Son are different persons but one and the same God.

Depends upon what you means as "the same". If you mean that they are both God, scripture is very clear that they are both God. If you mean that they are the same person, then no, because there are three persons in the trinity and the Father and the Son are different persons but one and the same God.

Same as not distinct; like, let say, mango and apple are both tree but they are not the same tree. Though, we cannot apply the "one" to those as Father and Jesus and Apostles are.

I also don't like the idea of the trinity [especially the Catholic's definition of it--I don't know how you define it though (I was onced a catholic that's why I know their definition of it)] for there are more than one spirit of God.

Don't be deceived by false teaching, because Christ is by promise, the intercession vine to the Father forever.

Hebrews 7:24-28 But [this man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, [maketh] the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

___________________________________________

Romans 8: 34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Romans 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me,.

Matthew 10 41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive the reward of a prophet: and he that receiveth a just man in the name of a just man, shall receive the reward of a just man.

Matthew 10 42 And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.

James 5 20 He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Same as not distinct; like, let say, mango and apple are both tree but they are not the same tree. Though, we cannot apply the "one" to those as Father and Jesus and Apostles are.

Scripture is quite clear that the Father and the Son are two distinct persons, but one and the same God.


I also don't like the idea of the trinity [especially the Catholic's definition of it--I don't know how you define it though (I was onced a catholic that's why I know their definition of it)] for there are more than one spirit of God.

I am not a Catholic or Protestant. I use only the Biblical definition which existed long before any denomination existed. Indeed, I find it just as easy to substantiate the truth of the trinity from the OT as I do from the NT (maybe easier).

Whether you like what scripture says or not is not the point. What you or anyone else may like does not change what scripture says.

Scripture is quite clear that the Father and the Son are two distinct persons, but one and the same God.

I am not a Catholic or Protestant. I use only the Biblical definition which existed long before any denomination existed. Indeed, I find it just as easy to substantiate the truth of the trinity from the OT as I do from the NT (maybe easier).

Whether you like what scripture says or not is not the point. What you or anyone else may like does not change what scripture says.

.. I believe that they are both God but not the same God. Same God could mean Jesus is THE Father and Father is Jesus. Same God could also imply having equal power and knowledge.

I do not like idea of trinity not just because I don't like it but because the bible do not support it as it also metioned the 7 spirits of God. (Revelation 5:6) I believe these spirits are still part of the Godhood, thus, nullifying the concept of trinity.

.. I believe that they are both God but not the same God.

That cannot be.

Isa 45:14
And there is no other;
There is no other God.'"
NKJV

Thus there is only one God and thus if Jesus is God and the Father is God, and they are distinct persons, we have two persons of the trinity.


I do not like idea of trinity not just because I don't like it but because the bible do not support it

Are you prepared to get into God's word to discuss what it does say about who God is, and who Jesus is?


as it also metioned the 7 spirits of God. (Revelation 5:6) I believe these spirits are still part of the Godhood, thus, nullifying the concept of trinity.

There is a difference between who God is and who these seven spirits are:

Rev 1:4-5
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
NKJV

Note that they are before His throne, they are not on the throne.

Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me,...


Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.





Matthew 10 41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive the reward of a prophet: and he that receiveth a just man in the name of a just man, shall receive the reward of a just man.

Matthew 10 42 And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.

Sincerely,

De Maria

God's spokesman could know what to speak for Him only (1) from His Spirit (2) from Jehovah making Himself known (3) from God's written word. This is why Timothy is the only one called a "man of God" in the New Testament (1Tim. 6:11), and why, to-day, one, and only one who knows "all scripture", which is so profitable, can be called a "man of God" (2Tim. 3:17).

All such are God's spokesmen because they alone know what He wishes to be spoken. They are His witnesses (Acts 1:8; 22:15). Christ was THE prophet because He spoke only those things which were give Him to speak (see note on Deut. 18:18), and He alone is "the faithful Witness" (Rev. 1:5).

Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Prayer to the dead would not enable any benefits as spokeman for us today. And why would anyone choose to pray through anyone other then Christ ? Christ is worthy of all and He alone is the fruitful Witness.

Psalms 18.3 I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.
Psalms 50:15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.
Psalms 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psalms 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.
Psalms 91:15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
Psalms 145:18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

That cannot be.

Isa 45:14
And there is no other;
There is no other God.'"
NKJV

Thus there is only one God and thus if Jesus is God and the Father is God, and they are distinct persons, we have two persons of the trinity.
This before Jesus was intorduced (atleast) to the world.


Are you prepared to get into God's word to discuss what it does say about who God is, and who Jesus is?
Yes please; I would like to hear the discussion.



There is a difference between who God is and who these seven spirits are:

Rev 1:4-5
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
NKJV

Note that they are before His throne, they are not on the throne.

If that's the case, there is neither an indication in the Bible that the Holy Spirit (assigned to the Church) also sits in the throne. But like the Holy Spirit, these 7 spirits were also sent forth to the earth (Revelation 5:6).

This before Jesus was intorduced (atleast) to the world.

Jesus has always been in existence.

Mic 5:2
2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting."
NKJV

Jesus was announced to the world long before, initially in Gen 3:15, and many times afterward. He was active in the pages of the Old Testament, and even spoke to a number of people in the Old Testament. He was also known as the Son of God in the Old Testament.

Prov 30:4
4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has bound the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is His Son's name,
If you know?
NKJV

Further God never changes:

Mal 3:6
6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change;
NKJV

Heb 13:7-9
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
NKJV

There was one God at the time that was written and there is still only one God (even after Jesus came to earth manifest in the flesh).

Mark 12:32-33
32 So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
NKJV

1 Tim 2:4-7
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle--I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying--a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
NKJV


Yes please; I would like to hear the discussion.

I did not ask if you would like to hear a discussion. I asked if you wanted to discuss it. If you do wish to discuss, then start a thread in the Religious Discussion area so that we do not risk hijacking this thread.


If that's the case, there is neither an indication in the Bible that the Holy Spirit (assigned to the Church) also sits in the throne. But like the Holy Spirit, these 7 spirits were also sent forth to the earth (Revelation 5:6).

Many being, angels, spirits and people were sent by God, but that does not mean that they are all God. The Holy Spirit has many attributes that belong solely to God. For example, the Hioly Spirit gives eternal life:

Ezek 37:13-14
14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' "
NKJV

Participated in creation:
Gen 1:1-3
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. To the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
NKJV

Those other spirits are spirits who are obedient to God, but nowhere does scripture give them attributes of being God.

Let me know if you start that thread in the religious discussion area.

Jesus has always been in existence.

Mic 5:2
2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting."
NKJV

Jesus was announced to the world long before, initially in Gen 3:15, and many times afterward. He was active in the pages of the Old Testament, and even spoke to a number of people in the Old Testament. He was also known as the Son of God in the Old Testament.

Prov 30:4
4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has bound the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is His Son's name,
If you know?
NKJV

Further God never changes:

Mal 3:6
6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change;
NKJV

Heb 13:7-9
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
NKJV

There was one God at the time that was written and there is still only one God (even after Jesus came to earth manifest in the flesh).

Mark 12:32-33
32 So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
NKJV

1 Tim 2:4-7
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle--I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying--a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
NKJV

It is undeniable true that Jesus existed even before. That why I added "(atleast)" to the world. But it's not clear to me how come you can say that they are distinct and yet the same. Do you mean that Jesus is ALSO the Father; and the Father is ALSO Jesus?


Many being, angels, spirits and people were sent by God, but that does not mean that they are all God. The Holy Spirit has many attributes that belong solely to God. For example, the Holy Spirit gives eternal life:

Ezek 37:13-14
14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' "
NKJV

Participated in creation:
Gen 1:1-3
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. To the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
NKJV

Those other spirits are spirits who are obedient to God, but nowhere does scripture give them attributes of being God.

Let me know if you start that thread in the religious discussion area.
Nor did the scripture deny them the attributes of God... So how can you dismiss the fact that they can still be part of the Godhood.


I did not ask if you would like to hear a discussion. I asked if you wanted to discuss it. If you do wish to discuss, then start a thread in the Religious Discussion area so that we do not risk hijacking this thread.
Please create one as I am not really good in creating new discussion/thread.

It is undeniable true that Jesus existed even before. That why I added "(atleast)" to the world.

However, even that statement is proven false by scripture as I indicated in my previous post. So if you accept that Jesus is God, and the Father is God, then you must acknowledge the trinity is true, even if you do not understand it.


But it's not clear to me how come you can say that they are distinct and yet the same. Do you mean that Jesus is ALSO the Father; and the Father is ALSO Jesus?

First of all, I did not use the word "same" because of its ambiguity. That is why I originally asked you what you meant by the word same in this context. To avoid mis-understanding, let's stick to the less ambiguous description that they are three distinct persons, yet one God. And no, if they are distinct persons, then the Father cannot be Jesus but they are all one God.

If you are trying to understand the precise nature of an infinite almighty God who is outside of space and time, then you are going to have problems. Remember that if you perfectly understood how this could all be, and if you perfectly understood the nature of such a being, then God would be a being who is no greater than yourself, and thus would not be God, What is important is that we accept what He tells us about Himself in His word. After all, who knows God's nature better than God?


Nor did the scripture deny them the attributes of God... So how can you dismiss the fact that they can still be part of the Godhood.

Actually, scripture is quite clear that there is a difference when it speaks of the Holy Spirit (which is singular and spoken of as God), and these seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels.

I trust that you know that to claim someone to be God simply because scripture does not explicitly state that they are not is a defined logic fallacy. If you go through scripture from end to end, scripture will rarely state explicitly that individuals are not God, simply because there is only one God, and scripture has stated who God is. It does not need to go through and every time a new individual comes up, and state that they are not God because anyone who scripture does not indicate is God either through specific reference or attributes that only God has, we can say is not God.

Please create one as I am not really good in creating new discussion/thread.

The new discussion is here:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/trinity-bible-266368.html#post1305854

Because of mans sinfulness we cannot approach God the Father directly. This is why we need a saviour and an intersessor who is worthy and sinless so He can be our advocate. Christ lived the perfect life we cannot live and died in our place of His people. He rose from the dead because He was sinless. When we are "in Christ" we live in Him and through Him and this is our access to God the Father. This is why all other religions that do not provide a sinless perfect advocate fall short in their attempts to reach God.

carla123
When Christians pray to God they usually pray to Him who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit trinity unless they pray to Jesus Christ, The Father, or the Holy Spirit personally.
When we pray the Lord's Prayer we are praying to the Father who is in heaven.
When I pray I usually end with, "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen."
Generally speaking, I believe most Christians pray in that way.
How do you pray?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Its always better to go to the scriptures then just follow any mans doctrine or organization.



At the very beginning we see that there were more than one!



Genesis 1:26

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."





John 17:5

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.



According to Gods Word how are God and His son the same? Could it be the representation of His nature?



Hebrews 1:1-3

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

In these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,



Jesus represents His Father like we are supposed to represent Jesus! But we are not Jesus. But He is supposed to be seen in us so, to people!! They could say of us that they see Jesus in us when we show Jesus's nature of love because we represent Him.



2 Corinthians 5:20

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.



2 Peter 1:3-5

Seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,



John 17:22-23

The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.





We know Jesus is not the Holy spirit because He says



John 16:7

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.



Who is the helper?



John 14:26

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.



John 15:26

"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,



So God is in heaven on the throne and Jesus sits on his right hand side of Him, and the Holy Spirit is helping us. pretty simple if you read the Word of God. all the same nature!!!! but three distinct persons.



We know the Son and Father are two persons, check out the scriptures where the son will hand everything over to the Father when He is done with the rule that God gave Him



1 Corinthians 15:24-28

then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, " it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.



Once again!!



Hebrews 1

And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,



Jesus represents His Father like we are supposed to represent Jesus!! but we are not Jesus. but He is supposed to be seen in us so, to people!!! they could say of us that they see Jesus in us when we show Jesus's nature of love because we represent Him.



Mark 13:32

" But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.



Matthew 3:15-17

But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him. After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."







The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father even though the Father is not the Son.

We are not the Son and the Son is not us even though the Son lives in us, Christ is seen in us and the Father is seen in Christ. Representations of each other. I am not Jesus but He lives in me.



John 10:38

But if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”



Galatians 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

1 John 4:13-16

By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.



John 14:17

That is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.



1 Corinthians 3:16

Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?



1 Corinthians 6:19

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?



John 15:4

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.



Colossians 1:27

To whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.



Jesus is talking about and to His Father, not to Himself

Matthew 7:21

“ Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 10:32-33

“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 11:25

[ Come to Me ] At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.

Matthew 11:27

All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.



Matthew 26:39

And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”

Mark 14:36

And He was saying, “ Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will.”

Luke 2:49

And He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?”



Luke 10:22

All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”



Luke 22:29

And just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you



Luke 22:42

Saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”



John 5:36

[ Witness of Works ] But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works that I do—testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.



John 5:37

[ Witness of the Father ] And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.



John 6:37

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.



John 6:44

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.



John 8:16

But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me.



John 8:28

So Jesus said, “When you lift the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.



John 8:42

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.



John 8:54

Jesus answered, “ If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';



John 10:17

For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.



John 10:18

No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

What Christ says the Lord God does for Him!



Isaiah 50:4-7

The Lord GOD has given Me the tongue of disciples,

That I may know how to sustain the weary one with a word.

He awakens Me morning by morning,

He awakens My ear to listen as a disciple.

The Lord GOD has opened My ear;

And I was not disobedient

Nor did I turn back.

I gave My back to those who strike Me,

And My cheeks to those who pluck out the beard;

I did not cover My face from humiliation and spitting.

For the Lord GOD helps Me,

Therefore, I am not disgraced;

Therefore, I have set My face like flint,

And I know that I will not be ashamed

I was just answering the oneness guy, please forgive me from straying from the subject

Jesus was in the flesh. That's why his father was greater. But when he got ready to descend he said ALL power is given to me in heaven and earth. So if they wherr different people now God wouldn't have power in heaven. Jesus is God Almighty.

Think about it this way: Due to our lack of the actual sense which might be able to fully understand an infinite God. God sent his "Son" Jesus so we could have a fixed reference to his character here in time. Kind of like a fisherman pointing out fact of wetness to his catch.Oh am I really wet ? Said the Tuna. God the Father who lives outside of time is always available to listen to any conversation or prayer with unlimited attention to detail because he can never waste time doing so , just as a fisherman at sea can never waste any wetness. In this way of thinking God and Jesus are the same being , just inside of time and outside of time they appear to the limited human consciousness as two being but are in fact the same identity .