From the New Jerusalem Bible.
Luke 6: 39. He also told them a parable, "Can one blind person guide another? Surely both will fall into a pit?
40. Disciple is not superior to teacher; but fully trained disciple will be like teacher.
41. Why do you observe the splinter in your brother's eye and never notice the great log in your own?
42. How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take out that splinter in your eye,' when you cannot see the great log in your own? Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take out the splinter in your brother's eye.
43. `There is no sound tree that produces rotten fruit, nor again a rotten tree that produces sound fruit.
44. Every tree can be told by its own fruit: people do not pick figs from thorns, nor gather grapes from brambles.
45. Good people draw what is good from the store of goodness in their hearts; bad people draw what is bad from the store of badness. For the words of the mouth flow out of what fills the heart.
How many "Christians" that you know tell others that they are going to hell when God alone will be the judge on who goes where?
How many do you know who DO NOT practice Christian love as Jesus taught with both word and example?
Are there any who post here doing those things?
We all are sinners to one extent or the other so as Jesus says we all have some logs or foreign objects in our eye that needs to be taken care of before we charge others about the specks or foreign objects in their eyes.
:) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

Agree, we are alll sinners in need of God's grace; therefore, we should be graceful to other sinners.

We should be aware of the example we provide.

Everyone thinks his religion is correct. Obviously, that cannot be true. We discuss, we quote, we sometimes argue. The discussion and quoting can be a good thing if it causes us to re-examine our faith. It will either strengthen it or cause us to change it. Hate does not have to enter into it.

So, Fred,

Am I wrong? Does the Catholic Church teach that you will go to Hell if you do not take communion in the Catholic Church, or are not baptised in the Catholic Church?

Excellent question. However, I suspect that any answer given will be filtered through dogma and subjected to mental gymnastics by most.

Perhaps a better question is, what is love? If all viewpoints were filtered through the answer to that, there would be no argument. In time, there would be no need to ask the question.

Hello dear Fred !

How many "Christians" that you know tell others that they are going to hell when God alone will be the judge on who goes where?

Too many !!! It even seems that the concentration of such "christians" increases on Q&A boards !

How many do you know who DO NOT practice Christian love as Jesus taught with both word and example?

Too many !!! It even seems that the concentration of such "christians" increases on Q&A boards !

Are there any who post here doing those things?

Too many !!! It even seems that the concentration of such "christians" increases on Q&A boards !

Peace and kindness to you, Fred

John

:)

Excellent question. However, I suspect that any answer given will be filtered through dogma and subjected to mental gymnastics by most.
Perhaps a better question is, what is love? If all viewpoints were filtered through the answer to that, there would be no argument. In time, there would be no need to ask the question.
I fail to agree with that.
Too many here do not show any love nor any tolerance towards other views.
Even if one would filter posts here with "love" as focal point, there still would be a lot of intolerance, a lot of hatred, a lot of totally misplaced "christian-based" threatening.

There will always be the need to ask these questions to bring the real Christian message home...

:(

Why don't these Christians who annoy so many, of us practice love as Jesus taught through word and example? Why are they blind to their own hatred?

Sometimes they query about what love really is. That is a step in the "right" direction.

Matthew 7:1-2, 7:12-14. 5:21-26, 5:43-48 we need to love our brothers in spite of who they and we are. We don't get to pick whom we like, it's not "do unto others only if they seem to deserve it" When we let it go we let God judge them instead of us.

Matthew 7:1-2, 7:12-14. 5:21-26, 5:43-48 ....
You can quote as many bible books/lines as you want.
But (Christian) integitry is about human beings and their human weaknesses.

:rolleyes:

I fail to agree with that.
Too many here do not show any love nor any tolerance towards other views.
Even if one would filter posts here with "love" as focal point, there still would be a lot of intolerance, a lot of hatred, a lot of totally misplaced "christian-based" threatening.

There will always be the need to ask these questions to bring the real Christian message home .....

:(

What is love?
1 Corinthians 13 = classic.:)


If I disagree with your point of view, does that make me intolerant?

Do you equate tolerance with love?

Is intolerance the same as hatred?


If my child decides to use cocaine, I disagree with this, I am "intolerant" of this.
Do I hate my child because I am intolerant of their drug use? :eek:

Do I hate you because you do not believe in God? Quite the contrary, I love you because I BELIEVE Jesus died for you/ for all.

But what you believe is your choice. I can't force you or threaten you.

inthebox, the fact is that many Christians do force and threaten, that's how I grew up. I was considered less then human in some eyes because I am not Catholic. I resent that, detest that, and will no tolerate it from anyone.

I believe in God, but I'm not a Christian, I'm not anything, I cannot be caterogized, and that is the way I've chosen. So, why, after I tell Christians of my belief, do they feel the need to convert me to their way of thinking? I know it's your mission to recruit, but I already believe in God, why do I have to be a Christian in order to do that? I don't, and that makes a lot of Christians uneasy.

Many Christians tell me that my faith isn't good enough, that I don't truly believe. Let me assure you, I do. God is a part of my life, no less then he is a part of a Christians life. The only difference is that I do not follow the bible, nor do I attend church. You know, you can pray just as well at home, and God doesn't need a man made church, oak pews, stained glass windows, golden idols in order to hear me.

I just wish that people would stop trying to push their religion on others. If someone asks, then by all means, feel free, but if they don't, then constantly quoting the bible, saying that Christianity is the only way, well, that's harassment.

That has been my experience with many (not all) of the Christians I've encountered. There are of course exceptions, and those are the people that I can discuss religion with, no matter what differing views we have.

Acceptance is the key. I've spent my whole life looking for the acceptance of my beliefs. I'll let you know when and if I find it.

Peace. :)

You can quote as many bible books/lines as you want.
But (Christian) integitry is about human beings and their human weaknesses.
And their strengths. And how they overcome their weaknesses.

Galviston1,
No the Catholic Church does not teach that a person goes to hell by not partaking of the Eucharist.
But in the bible Jesus said about those who eat his body and drink His blood that He will raise them up on the last day.
No, the Catholic Church does not teach that a person will go yo hell if not baptized in the Catholic Church.
But the bible does say that a person must be properly baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Most denominations recognize valid baptisms in other denominations.For the record I have never said that a person is going to hell.
The reason is that I believe that ONLY God knows who is going where.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Arcura, you definitely fall into the category of one of the Christians I respect. You have never talked down to me, nor have you said that my belief is less because I'm not Christian. I thank you for that. :)

Having said that, I realize that it's hard to accept that other Christians are not as good as you. It's hard for someone to believe that some people can use their beliefs to be cruel to others.

I was baptized in the Lutheran church. My father was Catholic, my mother Lutheran. When they decided to get married, my father wanted to marry in the Catholic church. My parents went to the Catholic priest and requested that he marry them. The priest said that he couldn't unless my mother became Catholic. My mother refused, didn't see why she had to change her religion. The priest said no way, either change or get married elsewhere. My mom and dad decided to get married in the Lutheran church. The Catholic priest told them that unless they got married in the Catholic church, they weren't really married and all their children would be bastards.

I was confirmed in the Lutheran church, married in the Lutheran church, my son was baptized in the Lutheran church, both my parents funerals where in the Lutheran church. I do not consider myself Lutheran though, and I haven't for a long time.

I can't say it enough, I believe we are all Gods children, regardless of what we believe. If we are his children, then he will not turn his back on any of us, not matter what.

So, one day, we will all meet in heaven (if heaven exists), that is my belief. :)

Peace.

inthebox, the fact is that many Christians do force and threaten, that's how I grew up. I was considered less then human in some eyes because I am not Catholic. I resent that, detest that, and will no tolerate it from anyone.

Unfortunately the cult of Catholicism is commonly confused with Christianity.

I believe in God, but I'm not a Christian, I'm not anything, I cannot be caterogized, and that is the way I've chosen. So, why, after I tell Christians of my belief, do they feel the need to convert me to their way of thinking? I know it's your mission to recruit, but I already believe in God, why do I have to be a Christian in order to do that? I don't, and that makes a lot of Christians uneasy.

Its not a matter of "recruiting". It's a matter of do you believe christ died on the cross for your sins. Christians are typically only concerned for salvation (true salvation).

Many Christians tell me that my faith isn't good enough, that I don't truly believe. Let me assure you, I do. God is a part of my life, no less then he is a part of a Christians life. The only difference is that I do not follow the bible, nor do I attend church. You know, you can pray just as well at home, and God doesn't need a man made church, oak pews, stained glass windows, golden idols in order to hear me.

"Belief" and salvation are two very different ant things. I think what the "Christians" you have spoken with have failed to do is explain that clearly. Also you are correct, legalism (ie: You must be baptized, You must go into our church and sing our songs ect..) is not true Christianity. Again, one way to salvation. Saved by grace and faith. The belief Christ died for our sins.

I just wish that people would stop trying to push their religion on others. If someone asks, then by all means, feel free, but if they don't, then constantly quoting the bible, saying that Christianity is the only way, well, that's harassment.

I hope you understand that pushing religion and concern for someone's salvation are two very different things. Typically Christians "true Christians" are very adamant when it comes the means of salvation. It is very clear in the bible that the only way to have salvation is to believe Christ died for your sins. As for harassment, I would gladly have you mad at me if that meant you could possibly be saved by my actions.

That has been my experience with many (not all) of the Christians I've encountered. There are of course exceptions, and those are the people that I can discuss religion with, no matter what differing views we have.

If a christian can't discuss someones religious views then they are to proud (a sin in itself). You should always be able to agree to disagree.




Just some thoughts..

Galviston1,
No the Catholic Church does not teach that a person goes to hell by not partaking of the Eucharist.
But in the bible Jesus said about those who eat his body and drink His blood that He will raise them up on the last day.


Actually, it doesn't - this claim represents another gospel, another way to salvation. All you need to do, according to this, is to partake of a ritual once and you are saved.


For the record I have never said that a person is going to hell.

You have said that about me, Fred!

Your questions (post #10) with my answers attached in BLUE.

If I disagree with your point of view, does that make me intolerant? No.

Do you equate tolerance with love? No.

Is intolerance the same as hatred? No.

Do I hate you because you do not believe in God? Quite the contrary, I love you because I BELIEVE Jesus died for you/ for all.
The point is that you KNOW that I am not interested in your religion as worldview.
I accept your worldview (I do not try to convert you to Secular Humanism) : I am tolerant.
You do NOT accept my worldview (you keep trying to convert me to Christianity) : you are intolerant

:rolleyes:

just some thoughts..
Unfortunately the cult of Catholicism is commonly confused with Christianity.
Catholicism a cult? It all depends on your parameters !
If parameters are properly "adapted", even Christianity becomes a cult !

Its not a matter of "recruiting". It's a matter of do you believe christ died on the cross for your sins. Christians are typically only concerned for salvation (true salvation).
Altenweg is NOT a Christian but a DEIST !!! "Salvation" is not her concern nor her goal.

Typically Christians "true Christians" are very adamant when it comes the means of salvation.
That may be so, but once someone has clearly and beyond any doubt stated not to be interested in "Christian salvation", the constant pushing for conversion should stop.
You do not see Altenweg pushing anyone for conversion to Deism.
You do not see any Secular Humanist here pushing anyone for conversion to Secular Humanism.

Just some thoughts too !

:rolleyes:

And their strengths. And how they overcome their weaknesses.
Agreed !

:)

once someone has clearly and beyond any doubt stated not to be interested in "Christian salvation", the constant pushing for conversion should stop.
I went back over a number of Christianity threads and fail to see where anyone is being coerced to become a Christian. Or is that happening via PMs? Or are you talking about real life?

I went back over a number of Christianity threads and fail to see where anyone is being coerced to become a Christian. Or is that happening via PMs? Or are you talking about real life?
You are relatively "new" her on "Religious discussions" but it is going on in almost all posts.
And not only experienced by myself.
I respect everyone religious belief, but I am NOT interested in Christianity, nor in Christian "salvation".

;) (happy now without blinking ?)

.

You are relatively "new" her on "Religious discussions" but it is going on in almost all posts.
And not only experienced by myself.
I respect everyone religious belief, but I am NOT interested in Christianity, nor in Christian "salvation".

;) (happy now without blinking ?)

.
I'm not new here; I rarely post on Christianity because doing so is so unsatisfying most of the time.

I didn't notice where you or anyone else was being coerced. Yes, there were strong and vehement arguments in favor of Christianity, but no one was being threatened with hellfire (except in the case of a few moral enemies that have done so on other sites -- I get around, John.) I'll have to check back re Alty's experience.

(By stopping eye-rolling, you've just saved me a long-distance call to my mom. Thanks.)

I'm not new here; I rarely post on Christianity because doing so is so unsatisfying most of the time.
That is why I stated "relatively"...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That is why I stated "relatively" ....
We might be related, you say?

We might be related, you say?
I'm just a simple European male who speaks his English (as his third language) a lot better than most of you gringo's do. But yes : I make sometimes spelling mistakes. Don't you?

:D

PS : I'm going now in horizontal mode for some hours to reload the batteries...

:D

.

I'm just a simple European male who speaks his English (as his third language) a lot better than most of you gringo's do. But yes : I make sometimes spelling mistakes. Don't you?

:D

PS : I'm going now in horizontal mode for some hours to reload the batteries ....

:D

.
Sleep well.

Unfortunately the cult of Catholicism is commonly confused with Christianity.
Catholicism a cult? It all depends on your parameters !
If parameters are properly "adapted", even Christianity becomes a cult !

anything that involves legalism and departs from the teaching of the bible in my opinion would be a cult. Note I said my opinion, so yes it must depend on my parameters.

Its not a matter of "recruiting". It's a matter of do you believe christ died on the cross for your sins. Christians are typically only concerned for salvation (true salvation).
Altenweg is NOT a Christian but a DEIST !!! "Salvation" is not her concern nor her goal.

You see my friend, when someone answers a question you need to stop taking it personal. When Alt posted her comments it was then open for someone to post a "Conversational Response". Of coarse if I post something, it will be from my christian point of view. You continue to post that you are superior in intellect but seem to lack the ability to differentiate conversation from coercion

Most of your post imply that an opinion is more valid if they do not include a christian point of view.

Typically Christians "true Christians" are very adamant when it comes the means of salvation.
That may be so, but once someone has clearly and beyond any doubt stated not to be interested in "Christian salvation", the constant pushing for conversion should stop.

When you hear the mere mention of Christianity it drives you crazy doesn't it? Why do they always talk about Christ and salvation? OMG they are trying to make me a Christian!! Why does someone who knows a lot about a topic always direct a conversation towards that topic. Christians can relate to other Christians from all walks of life on this common ground. We can also weed out the Non-Christians the same way. Ultimately I want to surround myself with like minded people. It's a double edged sword.

Secondly as Christians we are called to spread the gospel. Spread, not convert..I can't convert you only God can. Only if you (not "you" anyone) are called. Not everyone is called. Actually very few are, even the ones who "think" they are not always saved.

Get over the self centered feeling that its all about you...

You do not see Altenweg pushing anyone for conversion to Deism.
You do not see any Secular Humanist here pushing anyone for conversion to Secular Humanism.
really? I have seen ton's of secular humanism agendas in past post..so..hmm

Just some thoughts too !

:rolleyes:


I would roll my eyes, but I am not as trite..

Secondly as Christians we are called to spread the gospel. Spread, not convert..

And you do so even when someone says they don't want to hear it. That's the problem I have.

In every thread about religion there are Christians telling you to "read the bible", "go to church", believe, believe, believe. When I tell them that I do believe, they question my beliefs. Why, because I'm not a Christian, therefore, in there eyes, I don't believe, or not enough for them anyway.


Of coarse if I post something, it will be from my christian point of view.

And when I post something it's from my Deist point of view. When Cred posts something it's from a Secular Humanist's point of view. Are we not allowed to state our point of view as well?

Do you see the double standard? I do.

And when I post something it's from my Deist point of view. When Cred posts something it's from a Secular Humanist's point of view. Are we not allowed to state our point of view as well?

Do you see the double standard? I do.

Double standard? I welcome your point of view, and will counter with my point of view. It is called a conversation. We do not have to agree on a topic to have a conversation. Or is that what you are saying? It's a double standard unless I share your point of view?

You can't support your point of view without give some substance to back it up. I am sorry you think that when I support my information with my opinion and beliefs, those words are "bible beating" you into submission. That concept from educated people is almost comical to hear as an argument.

And you do so even when someone says they don't want to hear it. That's the problem I have.

So, when a christian comes up to you on the streets preaching the gospel and you tell them you are not interested they stand there and don't let you walk away?

When you come to a religion topical conversation on the internet and a christian gives you their beliefs again you can not just take it or leave it?

I must be confused because it sounds like you are saying again that if someone says something that you don't share the same view on, they shouldn't be allowed to say it?



Why, because I'm not a Christian, therefore, in there eyes, I don't believe, or not enough for them anyway.


Why are you concerned what any christian believes you believe if you are satisfied and happy in your beliefs?

You welcome my point of view? Really?


Ultimately I want to surround myself with like minded people.

I am not like minded, so why are you bothering to try and converse with me?

Also, a conversation is usually pleasant, one side speaks, the other side listens and then states their side in a nice, polite way. Even if we disagree, we can still be polite.

You posts are filled with anger and aggression, that's not the way I like to converse.

If you really want a conversation, I'm all for it. What I'm against is another argument, and I will not be brought in to one by you or anyone else, not anymore.

I've said what I wanted to say, if you can actually have a rational discussion about our differences, than let me know, I'm more than willing to discuss this with you, but not if every one of my posts is picked apart by you.

Good luck.

I am not like minded, so why are you bothering to try and converse with me?


With the anonymity of a Q&A board we are not actually surrounding ourselves so that question really has no merit.

This is an interesting conversation that I would like to understand more about why you have such disdain for Christians. You have posted your thoughts and I have posted mine. Not totally sure where you get the anger. On the contrary, I am not even slightly angered.


Also, a conversation is usually pleasant, one side speaks, the other side listens and then states their side in a nice, polite way. Even if we disagree, we can still be polite.

You posts are filled with anger and aggression, that's not the way I like to converse.

Hmm, so posing question, valid and concise is now anger and aggression?



If you really want a conversation, I'm all for it. What I'm against is another argument, and I will not be brought in to one by you or anyone else, not anymore.


Again how quickly a conversation goes from a conversation to an argument when the two sides don't agree. Interesting.

My last question stands.. If you are satisfied in your beliefs, then why would anything a christian say bother you in any way?

When I answer a valid question and pose one of my own you are upset?

Your whole tone is confrontational, if you can't see that then I'm sorry.


My last question stands.. If you are satisfied in your beliefs, then why would anything a christian say bother you in any way?

I am satisfied in my beliefs, and I am curious of others beliefs. That curiosity doesn't mean I'm searching for something different. I would like to know why people believe the things they do.

Now, why are you so eager to have a conversation with a Deist? What do you hope to gain from this conversation? Are you really interested in my beliefs, or just hoping to be able to interject yours into the conversation? Are you really listening to what I say, or are you just waiting for the opportunity to pick apart my words to use to your benefit?

As for your other question, no I'm not upset. I just won't allow myself to become involved in another religious fight. Like I said before, if you want to converse then lets be civil. If you refuse to be civil, then I will not be a part of this "conversation".

I do believe that people with different views can have rational discussion, but it's takes two people, just like it takes two to fight.

Your whole tone is confrontational, if you can't see that then I'm sorry.

Alt, taking a tone from something written is self imposed. I apologize if you perceive my tone to be anything but inquisitive. Truly, that isn't the "tone" I am trying to impart.




I am satisfied in my beliefs, and I am curious of others beliefs. That curiosity doesn't mean I'm searching for something different. I would like to know why people believe the things they do.


With complete respect to that statement, earlier in the thread I posted a brief description of why the "christian" believes and does what they do. I also am always curious as to what people believe and why.



Now, why are you so eager to have a conversation with a Deist? What do you hope to gain from this conversation? Are you really interested in my beliefs, or just hoping to be able to interject yours into the conversation? Are you really listening to what I say, or are you just waiting for the opportunity to pick apart my words to use to your benefit?


You seem like a smart and passionate person who can have a challenging conversation. Gain? Nothing but insight.



As for your other question, no I'm not upset. I just won't allow myself to become involved in another religious fight. Like I said before, if you want to converse then lets be civil. If you refuse to be civil, then I will not be a part of this "conversation".


Pro's and con's of a discussion board. One can perceive something completely opposite of the intended meaning. I believe a lot of that is predisposed in ones personality. That is my opinion of coarse so please don't consider that some veiled attack. Just thinking out loud.

This is a stimulating conversation in which uncharacteristically of myself I am not keeping silent. My normal MO is to make a point and bow out gracefully, but I have been stirred to continue. I see a lot of "Christian Hating" on this board which is very sad. Sadly a lot of that is due to "so called Christians" misrepresenting the faith.

Your faith, while not the one I share, is valid for you. My point, long in the making, is that if you are satisfied by your faith then you should be able to dismiss those you think are "judging" you. Anyone's opinion on your beliefs should never have any weight. Stay solid in your faith if you believe that is the road to your salvation.

Now, this is where I would share (not even so much to your benefit but someone who might read this) what I think would be the (in my belief system) true road to salvation. But, again I have already done that, and that isn't the point of this particular post.

God bless you alt :D

I'm sorry if it sounds like I hate Christians, because I really don't. If that's how my posts come across then I truly apologize.


Sadly a lot of that is due to "so called Christians" misrepresenting the faith.
Christians aren't the only ones. In every religion there are good an bad, people who follow the true nature of their belief, and those that take that belief and twist it to do harm.


Pro's and con's of a discussion board. One can perceive something completely opposite of the intended meaning.

Very true. Unfortunately we cannot talk to each other face to face, and a lot of things are misconstrued in the written word that wouldn't be if we could hear the persons voice.

God bless you too Smoked. :)

Altenweg and Smoked,
It is my opinion derived from being on this board for quite awhile that there is a higher percentage of Christians here who are tolerant, respectful and loving than I have seen on other boards.
Yes we do have a few who are more than assertive, even aggressive, but on other boards it appears to me to be a greater percentage than here.
In my case I am here to two reasons.
1. To see and try to understand other's point of view and opinions whether Chrsitian or not.
2. To express my opinions and see how others respond to them.
I have learned a lot from the several similar boards I have been on over the years.
I try to be respectful all the time, but I admit that I have failed from time to time.
I think that MOST people here can truthfully say the same or words to that effect.
I continue to hope for and wish all to have much peace and kindness, give and take,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

This is the only board I've ever been a member of, so I can't speak for other boards.

From what I've seen I'd say you are correct, most of the Christians here are tolerant and respectful, there are only a few that aren't. Sadly, the bad always sticks out more than the good.

I too try to be respectful, and I too fail, more often then I care to. I'm a thick headed, stubborn German woman, I can't help myself. ;)

Peace and kindness to you as well. God Bless. :)

Alty

I'm a thick headed, stubborn German woman
No, no, no. You are a pragmatic, strong-minded German freulein who gets things done. (I know. My ancestors are from Hannover.)

Altenweg,
I respect your choice of belief as I do of others.
We all have beliefs. Even the atheists have beliefs or various sorts.
In many counties it is OK, even encouraged, to have and be able to express one's beliefs.
I'm all for that.
I'm also of German extraction as well as from other counties.
I guess I'm a mongrel with blood from about 5 counties.
It's no wonder then (If ethnic blood tells what we are like) that I can be a different person at different times.
LOL
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Wondergirl,
I think you got that right about Alenweg.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

No, no, no. You are a pragmatic, strong-minded German freulein who gets things done. (I know. My ancestors are from Hannover.)

Is that a nice way of saying, stubborn, pigheaded, lady? ;)

Thanks Wondergirl. :)

Altenweg,
Stubborn yes, but pig-headed NO!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Altenweg,
Stubborn yes, but pig-headed NO!.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

:p

Wondergirl to Altenweg : Post # 38 :
... You are a pragmatic, strong-minded German freulein who gets things done.
Pragmatic : yes.
Strong-minded : yes.
Fräulein : not exactly, but very attractive - for sure!!

:D:D:D:D:D

.

Ok, remember name calling, attacking others are not allowed even in discussion areas. Keep it on topic.

It is interesting to me how non-Christians can get so incredibly offended by those "kind, tolerant Christians."

What is really confusing, and I may be naïve in the extreme, is why non-Christians carry a grudge. Apparently a grudge. For me it is fear of being controlled and told that I am wrong.

If a person has faith and belief in something, they are not wrong! They are human, and sane. Calling such a person nasty names is ridiculous. No, a discussion is not about one being right and the other wrong, that is a debate.

In Fred's OP he mentioned that only God can judge us. That's what I just said, so we agree. Sure, there are some areas where our philosophies differ. That makes for an interesting discussion.

Picking apart words to find a loophole to put another "in his place" is a waste of time, unless debate and ego satisfaction is all you're after.

"He that never changes his opinions, never corrects his mistakes, will never be wiser on the morrow than he is today."
Tryon Edwards

Hello John, how is aton faring these days? Did he finish his movie? or did it finish him?
Why would I know that, JJD ?
Have you finally been kicked off by answerway?

:D

.

Ok, remember name calling, attacking others are not allowed even in discussion areas. Keep it on topic.


Chuck, I called myself a name, and it's okay, really. I know I'm stubborn, and pigheaded, but I have to agree that I am not a Frauelein, as the definition is an unmarried young lady. I am a Frau, women, married. :)

I'm also sorry for straying off the topic. My bad. Hanging head in shame. Sorry. :o

In perhaps not the letter of but in the spirit of Christian integrity I welcome new member 3 Chord Elijah.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Altenweg,
Yes please back to the topic.
The questions are...
How many "Christians" that you know tell others that they are going to hell when God alone will be the judge on who goes where?
How many do you know who DO NOT practice Christian love as Jesus taught with both word and example?
Are there any who post here doing those things?
We all are sinners to one extent or the other so as Jesus says we all have some logs or foreign objects in our eye that needs to be taken care of before we charge others about the specks or foreign objects in their eyes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

How many "Christians" that you know tell others that they are going to hell when God alone will be the judge on who goes where?

Sadly, too many to count, and I gave up counting years ago.


How many do you know who DO NOT practice Christian love as Jesus taught with both word and example?

Again, too many. When I went to Catholic school, most of the Catholics I knew went to church, prayed for forgiveness and then went home to beat their wife, molest their kids, you name it. Those are the same "Christians" that told me I was going to hell, simply because I wasn't Catholic and didn't attend their church.


Are there any who post here doing those things?

There are, and sadly they stick out more than the good Christians do, because of their hateful ways and condescending attitude.


We all are sinners to one extent or the other so as Jesus says we all have some logs or foreign objects in our eye that needs to be taken care of before we charge others about the specks or foreign objects in their eyes.

I agree with 100%

Peace and kindness to you as well Fred. :)

I believe this fits well with the subject "Christian Integrity"
<><><>
A man was being tailgated by a stressed out woman on a busy boulevard.

Suddenly, the light turned yellow, just in front of him. He did the right thing, stopping at the crosswalk, even though he could have beaten the red light by accelerating through the intersection.

The tailgating woman was furious and honked her horn, screaming in frustration, as she missed her chance to get through the intersection, dropping her cell phone

As she was still in mid-rant, she heard a tap on her window and looked up into the face of a very serious police officer. The officer ordered her to exit her car with her hands up.

He took her to the police station where she was searched, fingerprinted, photographed, and placed in a holding cell. After a couple of hours, a policeman approached the cell and opened the door. She was escorted back to the booking desk whe re the arresting officer was waiting with her personal effects.

He said, 'I 'm very sorry for the mistake. You see, I pulled up behind your car while you were blowing your horn, flipping off the guy in front of you, and cussing a blue streak at him.' I noticed the 'What Would Jesus Do' bumper
Sticker, the 'Choose Life' license plate holder, the 'Follow Me to Sunday School' bumper sticker, and the chrome-plated Christian fish emblem on the trunk..

Naturally... I assumed you had stolen the car!'
Priceless!!
Fred

Wonderful story Fred, so true. :)

Discussion, not chat, and no name calling, yes fred is correct, name calling will result in moderation.

I like to go back to the topic, that is about "Christian integrity".

I wonder : many Christians here seem to be rather intolerant to deviating views.
However : I also note aggressive creationists who post about a 6000 year old universe, and who insist that "God" is the "Creator", and who attack every opposing view with creationist - unsupported - babble that claims to be scientific, but that is anything but scientific.

Very few Christians here dare to admit that as far as they are concerned they accept science and scientific findings (like evolution) as reality.

Just a very small group of religious fanatics "color" this religious discussion board with their creationists views. However these same fanatics seem to lack one of the basics of Christianity : love and forgiveness.

Now : how is that for "Christian integrity"??

:rolleyes:

.

I wonder : many Christians here seem to be rather intolerant to deviating views.
However : I also note aggressive creationists who post about a 6000 year old universe, and who insist that "God" is the "Creator", and who attack every opposing view with creationist - unsupported - babble that claims to be scientific, but that is anything but scientific.

John,

You have been presented with scientific evidence but many people on many boards but you won't look at it. On the other hand, you claimed that there is abundant OSE for evolution, and have been asked many many times by myself and others for that OSE for evolution, but every time failed to respond with the said evidence.

It is therefore a matter of differing faiths - ours in the one true God, and yours in evolution.

Scientific evidence, or scientific speculation? There is no evidence that God exists. The bible isn't proof, nor are the stories therein.

Sorry, I wish there was proof, but sadly, there isn't.

Scientific evidence, or scientific speculation? There is no evidence that God exists. The bible isn't proof, nor are the stories therein.

Sorry, I wish there was proof, but sadly, there isn't.

Then, I am sorry to say, you have not looked at the evidence. Do you breathe? Can you see?

Can you provide the OSE for evolution that John has been unable to provide?

Yes I breathe, yes I see, where's your proof that God made that possible? The bible? That's not proof, it's a man written book, not a God written book.

Tj3, if you and I both witness an event, our accounts of that event will be very different, because we are human. Therefore, a book written by human beings, although possibly written about actual events, will not have the whole truth in it. That's just the way human beings are, fallible, not perfect. Therefore, the bible, in my opinion, is not accurate, as it was written by man.

I do believe in God, but I'm not sure that he made the world. I believe the scientific explanation for the creation of the world. God may have had a hand in it, but I don't think he worked alone. :)

Yes I breathe, yes I see, where's your proof that God made that possible? The bible? That's not proof, it's a man written book, not a God written book.

So far I have not used the Bible as proof of God. You keep bringing up a strawman.

If you breathe and see, can you tell me how those capabilities came to be?

Which scientific explanation do you believe?

No, I'm not a scientist.

If you claim that God gave us these gifts, then where is your proof?

I'm not saying that God didn't help create everything, I'm simply saying that there is too much scientific proof that God didn't create it all single handedly.

Like I said before, I think he may have helped science along, but did he do it alone? I don't think so. I don't have any proof, that's just what I believe.

I do believe in God. I also believe in science. Science I have proof of, God, I do not.

So tell me, should I believe in something no one can prove? I do, but I will be the first to admit that it is only belief, not fact.

If you have actual proof of Gods existence, then why are we still having this conversation? Just show me your proof. I don't have any, but obviously you think you do.

I'd love to see it.

No, I'm not a scientist.

I have a degree in science and I have examined the evidence, both the evidence regarding evolution and the evidence for the Bible.


If you claim that God gave us these gifts, then where is your proof?

Let's go through the questions at hand first, and I am sure that all will become clear in due course.

John claims scientific background, but he never got any farther than you have in providing OSE for evolution.

Therefore, a book written by human beings, although possibly written about actual events, will not have the whole truth in it. That's just the way human beings are, fallible, not perfect. Therefore, the bible, in my opinion, is not accurate, as it was written by man.
I don't think "accurate" is the right word. You are on one corner of an intersection. I am on the corner diametrically opposed. Two cars crash. The police come and interview you and me as witnesses. Is your account of the accident inaccurate? No, it's not. It is accurate according to what you saw. Is my account of the accident inaccurate? No, it's not. It is accurate according to what I saw. Does your account match mine, and mine match yours? No. You and I saw the accident from two different vantage points. Neither is wrong, but neither tells the whole story of the accident.

I did marital counseling for several years. I got one version of the marital relationship from the husband, and a different one from the wife. Neither was wrong; neither was 100% right. Each was telling about the relationship from his own point of view based on his own experiences and interpretation of those experiences. The wife reported as accurately as possible as she saw it, and the husband reported as accurately as possible as he saw it, but the real truth lay somewhere in the middle. Thankfully, my job wasn't to find out the real truth, but to help the couple listen to each other and find a way to compromise.

The Bible isn't inaccurate because humans are fallible and imperfect, but because each writer experienced an event from one perspective. That's why it's so important to read and examine and even question the point of view of a writer to figure out on which "corner" he was standing when an event occurred. That's why some Christians here say that the Bible supports itself. They look at all the writers and their points of view to figure out what the truth of the Bible is.

Altenweg,
I believe in some forms of evolution that science had proven, but not some of the theory about no God.
I also believe in God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Altenweg,
I believe in some forms of evolution that science had proven, but not some of the theory about no God.

What evidence is there for evolution, Fred?

I have a degree in science and I have examined the evidence, both the evidence regarding evolution and the evidence for the Bible.



Let's go through the questions at hand first, and I am sure that all will become clear in due course.

John claims scientific background, but he never got any farther than you have in providing OSE for evolution.

There's more proof of evolution then there is God.

Like I said, I'm not a scientist, heck, science is my absolute worst subject. Don't ask me to provide OSE for evolution, I wouldn't know where to begin. That will be up to someone else to prove,not me.

I don't need proof of God, I believe without it. But you are claiming to have proof, so why won't you provide it?

There's more proof of evolution then there is God.

Like I said, I'm not a scientist, heck, science is my absolute worst subject. Don't ask me to provide OSE for evolution, I wouldn't know where to begin. That will be up to someone else to prove,not me.

If you or anyone else is going to make a claim that there is any proof for evolution, then it is important to have investigated what evidence there is, otherwise evolution is in fact a faith and a religion - because your belief that there is proof is taken on faith that it exists.

You see, I used to believe in evolution. I defended evolution time and time again, and I wanted to strengthen my defense of evolution so I took the time to get into the evidence that existed for evolution in order to prove that evolution was scientifically based, and that the Genesis account was just a story. What I found shocked me. I found that the evidence showed the exact opposite.

I even tried to back off to what is called theistic evolution to try to deal with the problems that I found, but that was even less compelling, so I found that if I was to be honest to the facts at hand, I had to accept that the Biblical account was true, not just because of my faith in the one true God, but also because the scientific evidence in favour of the Genesis account was so compelling.

I wonder if you are aware that an increasing number of secular scientists are abandoning evolution and coming up with alternate theories simply because the problems with the theory of evolution make evolution unpallatable.

You say that you do not understand science. Science is the study of God's creation. The evidence for God is all around us, but the strongest evidence is in science. That is why I am trying to get in the scientific evidence.

Tj3,
We have been over that about my belief in evolution several times on other broads.
I'll NOT go over it again with you because you refuse to accept why I believe as I do.
You believe as you wish, so does cred and Alemweg.
I believe as I wish.
Accept it or not, that is your choice.
You are NOT going to change what we believe so why bother trying to do so continually?
Fred
Fred

Tj3,
We have been over that about my belief in evolution several times on other broads.

Fred,

You have never provided any evidence for your believe in evolution. That is why I asked.

I have no problem with you believing as you wish. I do think that it is interesting that you describe evolution as your "belief" because that is what it is, a faith, a belief.

Well then, I guess that's what I believe. Evolution and the existence of God. I told you, I'm an anomaly. ;)

I cannot start studying evolution now, science is beyond my capabilites, sad to admit, but true. I have to rely on scientists to do the research and studying for me, and hope that what they find is accurate.

Fred, so true. We all have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

I am more than willing to hear of any evidence, be it scientific or spiritual. But in order to convince me that the bible is accurate, I will need proof. You see, the bible is something I have researched, and I cannot accept that it is the "word of God".

Peace.

Fred,

You have never provided any evidence for your believe in evolution. That is why I asked.

I have no problem with you believing as you wish. I do think that it is interesting that you describe evolution as your "belief" because that is what it is, a faith, a belief.

Tj3, so is God. :)

Tj3, so is God. :)

Yes it is, but it is not a blind faith.

It is also important to note that evolutionists claim evolution is a science, but yet when it comes down to it, we see that it is something which is believed through faith. Evolution is in fact a religious belief.

Tj3,
As I said. NO!
I will not go over that again with you.
I have told you WHY I believe in the forms of evolution I do believe in several times.
QUIT saying that I have not for I most certainly HAVE DONE SO.
Fred

Well then, I guess that's what I believe. Evolution and the existence of God. I told you, I'm an anomaly. ;)

I once believed that also, but when I examined the facts, including the scientific evidence, I was force to accept what the evidence showed and to abandon evolution completely.


I cannot start studying evolution now, science is beyond my capabilites, sad to admit, but true. I have to rely on scientists to do the research and studying for me, and hope that what they find is accurate.

Which scientists? This is the point. Scientists are of various opinions, and even those who believe in evolution will tell you, if they are honest, that the belief in evolution is based upon mounds of assumptions.

The facts behind evolution are not so difficult that a layman cannot understand. What you need to do is to look at the claims of evolution, and ask questions. Ask what evidence there is to validate that. Ask about the assumptions, and the holes in the evidence, and see where that leads. That is a good starting point. There are also excellent scientific books available. One written by a leading scientist in the field, Michael Behe is called "The Edge of Evolution". This is entirely a science book, but written so that a layman can understand it.

Fred, so true. We all have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

I am more than willing to hear of any evidence, be it scientific or spiritual. But in order to convince me that the bible is accurate, I will need proof. You see, the bible is something I have researched, and I cannot accept that it is the "word of God".

Peace.[/QUOTE]

Tj3,
As I said. NO!
I will not go over that again with you.
I have told you WHY I believe in the forms of evolution I do believe in several times.
QUIT saying that I have not for I most certainly HAVE DONE SO.
Fred

No Fred, you have no never given any evidence for your belief in evolution. All you have given is the refusal such as you are doing now. But if you cannot or will not validate your belief, that is fine. You are certainly welcome to have faith in whatever you wish to place your faith.

This is Freds thread and I think we should respect his request and no longer discuss evolution, we have once again strayed from the topic.

There are other threads that would be better suited for this type of discussion. I'd be glad to hear your arguments there. :)

I apologize Fred.

Peace.

Tj3,
I see you have gone back to you old habit of making false accusations about what I have or have not done.
I'll not respond any more to you because of that.

Fred

Nothing has changed with Tj3 but his handle, and his use of his engineering degree as a "science degree" (if that were true, I have 2 such "science degrees" !

Once more I like to go back to the topic, that is about "Christian integrity".

I wonder : many Christians here seem to be rather intolerant to deviating views.
However : I also note aggressive creationists who post about a 6000 year old universe, and who insist that "God" is the "Creator", and who attack every opposing view with creationist - unsupported - babble that claims to be scientific, but that is anything but scientific.

Very few Christians here dare to admit that as far as they are concerned they accept science and scientific findings (like evolution) as reality.

Just a very small group of religious fanatics "color" this religious discussion board with their creationists views. However these same fanatics seem to lack one of the basics of Christianity : love and forgiveness.

Now : how is that for "Christian integrity"??

:rolleyes:

.

Tj3,
I see you have gone back to you old habit of making false accusations about what I have or have not done.
I'll not respond any more to you because of that.

Fred

Fred,

You responses on here prove what I said.

Nothing has changed with Tj3 but his handle, and his use of his engineering degree as a "science degree" (if that were true, I have 2 such "science degrees" !

John, you are making your lack of knowledge of the qualifications for an engineering licence obvious.


I wonder : many Christians here seem to be rather intolerant to deviating views.
However : I also note aggressive creationists who post about a 6000 year old universe, and who insist that "God" is the "Creator", and who attack every opposing view with creationist - unsupported - babble that claims to be scientific, but that is anything but scientific.

'nuff said. Like I said, because you choose to ignore the scientific evidence when it is placed before you does not make those who put the evidence there intolerant. Indeed if refusal to accept scientific evidence is intolerant, would that not also apply to those who refuse to look at the scientific evidence for creationism?

Also as shown on here in the last few messages, and admitted by at least one participant, evolution is a matter of belief.

John, you are making your lack of knowledge of the qualifications for an engineering licence obvious.
And you make your lack of knowledge on the difference between a degree in electrical engineering and a "degree in SCIENCE" very obvious!


... because you choose to ignore the scientific evidence when it is placed before you does not make those who put the evidence there intolerant.
Tommy Smith : please note that Arcura clearly asked you to post your deliberate disturbing comments to the topic somewhere else. This topic is about Christian Integrity.

If you like to post about your lacking scientific evidence for creationism than I suggest you open such a topic.
If you like to post about evolution, than I suggest you open such a topic.

It seems to me that you are now deliberately trying to disturb other peoples topics, nearly identical to your approach on Answerway, before they suspended you there for your fanaticism, personal aggression, and intolerance...

:rolleyes:

.

And you make your lack of knowledge on the difference between a degree in electrical engineering and a "degree in SCIENCE" very obvious!

Really, John. And what would you call a "Bachelor of Applied Science" where science courses were an essential core part of the curriculum? Or maybe you don't think "science" means "science". Next you are going to tell me one can get an engineering degrees in high school :D


If you like to post about your lacking scientific evidence for creationism than I suggest you open such a topic.
If you like to post about evolution, than I suggest you open such a topic.


I will take this to mean that you have no response to my questions. BTW, you brought up the topic of evolution. I guess now you have regrets ;)

The point is, John, you keep attacking Christians with this false strawman claiming that we are somehow opposed to the scientific evidence, when in fact the truth is the exact opposite. In discussions over the topic, time and again, it is the Christians who bring forward the scientific evidence. You must know that it is a logic fallacy to bring forward an argument based upon an unvalidated premise. Attacking what you claim to be Christian integrity because Christians insist upon evaluating the facts at hand, and indeed including the scientific evidence, does absolutely nothing to enhance or validate your attacks against the Christian faith.

Tj3, this is the perfect example of lack of Christian integrity, the desire to push your religion on others. When asked to stop, even by a fellow Christian, you continue.

Fred started this thread, and yes, we've strayed off topic numerous times, but he specifically asked you to stop. Will you? No. Why?

If you really want to discuss evolution or other scientific findings, or the proof you claim to have, then please, feel free to start your own thread on the subject. I'm sure that many people would love to discuss this with you, but not here.

Please respect Fred's wishes to discontinue a discussion on evolution. If you have something to add about Christian integrity we'd love to hear it.

Thank you. :)

Tj3, this is the perfect example of lack of Christian integrity, the desire to push your religion on others. When asked to stop, even by a fellow Christian, you continue.

There is a difference between defending scientific principles and "pushing" one's religion on others. So far I have said nothing in this thread about my religion, despite your efforts to bring the Bible into the discussion while I was discussing the scientific basis for creation. Also, attacking others personally is not permitted on here, which both you and John have done in this thread. Is that not important when one speaks of integrity?


If you really want to discuss evolution or other scientific findings, or the proof you claim to have, then please, feel free to start your own thread on the subject.

Interesting that you have said nothing to John about pushing his beliefs and bringing up the topic of evolution. I think that consistency is important. So if you think that evolution has no place on here (and you may have a valid concern there), then please feel free to let John know, as he is the one who keeps pushing this topic. I noticed that your focus was on me, and that you chose not to respond to my comments on Christian integrity. I am, please not, also not the topic on here.

If you would like to move the discussion towards a different focus, then by all means, please provide your input, but please do so respectfully without attacking others personally - deal with the topic, without attacking the integrity or faith of others.

If you took anything I said as a personal attack, then I apologize, I surely didn't intend it that way.

I did not see your comments on Christian integrity, that is why I didn't respond.

I am more than willing to discuss the original topic with you, but I will not get into a discussion about evolution on this thread as it is clearly against the OP's wishes.

I doubt this will matter for long though, I have a feeling this thread will be closed soon, it's gone downhill very quickly.

Fred, I enjoyed discussing this topic with you, I'm sure we'll get the chance to talk again. I thank you for starting this thread, I'm very sorry for the way it turned out. We did have some good discussion about Christian integrity, and I am grateful for that and the chance to hear other peoples take on the subject.

Peace. :)

If you took anything I said as a personal attack, then I apologize, I surely didn't intend it that way.

When you attack a specific person's personal integrity, that is not dealing with a topic point, but, yes, that is a personal attack.

Apology accepted - let's move forward and discuss the topic.


I am more than willing to discuss the original topic with you, but I will not get into a discussion about evolution on this thread as it is clearly against the OP's wishes.

Actually, I do not believe he actually said that. In any case, it was not my intent either. John was making some clearly false statements about and attacking the Christian faith, so I responded to those comments. I would welcome your input in challenging John's efforts to change this into a discussion on evolution (and yes, John introduced it - see post #56, and then re-introduced it in post #80).

And what would you call a "Bachelor of Applied Science" where science courses were an essential core part of the curriculum?
You know I live in Europe, so I am nor familiar with your grading system.
You and I are both engineers. You are an electrical engineer, and I am an electronics and computer science engineer. But we are NOT scientists in the "true" sense of the word science. Lot's of my spare time goes towards science in general, the result of the 5 years I worked at the - at that time - biggest private scientific research facility in the world.


I will take this to mean that you have no response to my questions. BTW, you brought up the topic of evolution.
You were repeatedly asked by Fred to stop posting on evolution, and return to the topic.
How revealing that you refuse to do that for someone who always complained to others who did that, but does that now himself.
Note that upon Fred's request I returned to the topic here.


.... you keep attacking Christians with this false strawman claiming that we are somehow opposed to the scientific evidence....
Total nonsense, Tommy Smith ! I do not. All I say is that creation "science" is no science.

And if you want to discuss that, than please start a topic about that, and stop posting here about anything else than Christian integrity.

:)

.

>Thread Closed<