California Law says that the landlord must refund the deposit within 21 days after you leave the unit. We left the unit before the closing date of Lease Contract. In this case, when the 21 days start from?

Thank you in advance.

Hello tv:

It starts from the END of your lease - not the day you leave.

excon

It starts from the date that you deliver possession of the property to the landlord, which is usually defined as the day you hand in the keys. If you hand in the keys earlier than the termination date of the lease then the landlord is entitled to hold on to the security until the property is re-rented but they have to give you written notice that they are doing that during the 21 day period.

Your lease should have something outlining the return of your deposit. However, the 21-day clock starts when you return the keys to your landlord.

When you say you left the unit early, are you talking a week or two or did you move out months in advance? If you moved out months early, then your landlord may be entitled to charge you rent until the apartment is re-rented but only if they make reasonable efforts to re-rent said apartment. If this is the case, then that may also be why your deposit has not been returned.

Your lease should have something outlining the return of your deposit. However, the 21-day clock starts when you return the keys to your landlord.

When you say you left the unit early, are you talking a week or two or did you move out months in advance? If you moved out months early, then your landlord may be entitled to charge you rent until the apartment is re-rented but only if they make reasonable efforts to re-rent said apartment. If this is the case, then that may also be why your deposit has not been returned.


After paying Aug's rent on the end of July, I submitted the 30-day notice to the landlord on 8/5. Then, I left the unit on 8/25/08. Can they deduct the pro rate of Sept's rent (for 4 days) from my deposit?

Bad news... if your rent is due on the first, then I am assuming that the lease ended on August 31. Which means that you should have submitted the 30-day notice no later than August 1. By specifying a move-out date of September 4th, after the lease end, you may have obligated yourself to the entire month of September. In many places they don't have to pro-rate the month, and you are expected to give a 30-day notice that runs from rental period to rental period. Also, by giving the landlord a notice that went until Sept. 4, the issue of when you vacated the apartment is murky. Did you actually turn in the keys on 8/25? Do you expect them to refund the rent from the 25th to the 31st? If you don't, then the landlord can argue that you haven't actually vacated the apartment, since you are the one still paying the rent on it, and thus the 21 days doesn't start until after the 4th. (Which is, after all, a date that you picked. They can't make you leave before that.)

Essentially, you can't claim both that you gave 30-days notice by telling them a date of the 4th, and say that you returned control of the premises on the 25th. If you did the latter, then they can deduct damages for failure to provide adequate notice.

Now, if you told them the 4th, but went in later and talked the situation over and you and they came to the conclusion that they would allow you out of the lease earlier (which means that they should be pro-rating the rent as well), then the 21 days would start from the 25th.

We spoke with the Fair Housing Board in CA and they said the 21 days starts from the day you vacate, no matter when your lease ends.

They have to provide you the security deposit and/or the accounting of itemized deductions by the 21st calendar day. They said the landlord would have to sue you if there are any expenses after that, for example, if you broke the lease and it isn't re-rented by that time.

We spoke with the Fair Housing Board in CA and they said the 21 days starts from the day you vacate, no matter when your lease ends.

They have to provide you the security deposit and/or the accounting of itemized deductions by the 21st calendar day. They said the landlord would have to sue you if there are any expenses after that, for example, if you broke the lease and it isn't re-rented by that time.

I would agree with that. Then the next issue becomes the definition of "vacate", or as most leases state "surrender".

For example, my lease states that you "surrender" the apartment when you return the keys and provide me with your forwarding address (and I think there's one other minor thing.) So if, on the 25th of Aug. you did all the things that your lease and/or state law require for actual surrender, then you should be "right".

Now, if you just left and didn't do everything required to officially "surrender" possession, then you're getting into grey area and a judge would most likely be the one deciding who is "right".

After paying Aug's rent on the end of July, I submitted the 30-day notice to the landlord on 8/5. Then, I left the unit on 8/25/08. Can they deduct the pro rate of Sept's rent (for 4 days) from my deposit?

If your lease stated that you are supposed to provide a 30-day notice, then they can keep your deposit as rent for the month of September because the 30 days ended on 9/4, not 8/31.

The 21-day clock still starts on the date that you gave the keys back to your landlord, which you say is 8/25. The landlord is then required to a)return your deposit in full or b)give you a partial return of your deposit with a letter outlining what has been deducted and for what reasons. So technically, your landlord hasn't done anything wrong yet. They have until 9/14 to tell you what's going on with the deposit.

I would agree with that. Then the next issue becomes the definition of "vacate", or as most leases state "surrender".

For example, my lease states that you "surrender" the apartment when you return the keys and provide me with your forwarding address (and I think there's one other minor thing.) So if, on the 25th of Aug. you did all the things that your lease and/or state law require for actual surrender, then you should be "right".

Now, if you just left and didn't do everything required to officially "surrender" possession, then you're getting into grey area and a judge would most likely be the one deciding who is "right".

I did all required things: giving a 30-day notice with my forwarding address by a certified mail and returning the keys and garage openers on the day I left the unit.

If I haven't heard from the landlord within 21 days, I have a right to obtain the full deposit, correct?

If I haven't heard from the landlord within 21 days, I have a right to obtain the full deposit, correct?

If the landlord doesn't comply with the requirements you have the right to demand whatever the law allows. (It often allows for up to 3 times the deposit or some type of penalties.) If they don't acknowledge your demand you would have to sue them in small claims court.

However, that doesn't get you out of upholding your end of the lease. The landlord can demand that you pay rent through the end of your lease / notice, etc. Plus damages, etc. If you don't acknowledge their demands they can sue you in small claims court. Then any judgements would basically wind up being what they can get a judgement for, minus what you can get a judgement for, or vice versa. Did that make sense?

Just because they don't follow the security deposit return law doesn't mean that it cancels out whatever you would owe them. Also, if they claim damages to the unit typically YOU (the tenant) would have the burden of proof that it WASN'T damaged. They may just have to show receipts that work was done.

My advice (I've been a landlord for about 15 years) is to contact them and find out what's going on. It wouldn't be a bad idea to follow up in writing. Just let them know that you know the law regarding the return of your security deposit and tell them what you're expecting. Is this a management company or an individual? My guess is they're going to start the 21 days from the last day of your notice. That may not be "correct", but as long as they don't have a history of screwing people out of their deposits, a judge probably wouldn't nail them for it. I think you'd have a much better chance of working this out with them that taking it to court.

You still haven't stated how early you left. Did your lease only run through September or did you vacate a month or two before the lease was to end? If this was the case, then the landlord needs to make reasonable efforts to re-rent the apartment; if they cannot, then you are responsible to pay rent for the month(s) left on your lease until it is re-rented.

You still haven't stated how early you left. Did your lease only run through September or did you vacate a month or two before the lease was to end? If this was the case, then the landlord needs to make reasonable efforts to re-rent the apartment; if they cannot, then you are responsible to pay rent for the month(s) left on your lease until it is re-rented.

I provided it in #5. After one year lease, we entered month-to-month contract, and the Contract states that we can submit a 30-day notice anytime.

#5 reads as follows:

After paying Aug's rent on the end of July, I submitted the 30-day notice to the landlord on 8/5. Then, I left the unit on 8/25/08. Can they deduct the pro rate of Sept's rent (for 4 days) from my deposit?
That doesn't spell out what the terms of your lease were; it only tells me when you moved.

From your last post, which was #13, I now understand that you were on month-to-month contract. Seeing as you didn't provide the 30-day notice until 8/5, I would say that you're liable for September rent. If it's a large deposit and you really want to fight for it, they're most likely going to pro-rate the rent for September and deduct that off the deposit anyway.

My advice (I've been a landlord for about 15 years) is to contact them and find out what's going on. It wouldn't be a bad idea to follow up in writing. Just let them know that you know the law regarding the return of your security deposit and tell them what you're expecting. Is this a management company or an individual? My guess is they're going to start the 21 days from the last day of your notice.


I wrote an email to remind the landlord to return our money, but it's ignored so far.

They may start the 21 days from the last day of the notice, as you guess, but even so, they should respond to my mail to let me know.

I wrote an email to remind the landlord to return our money, but it's ignored so far.

They may start the 21 days from the last day of the notice, as you guess, but even so, they should respond to my mail to let me know.

I absolutely agree. They should certainly have responded to you by now to make their intentions known.

I think you would be well within your rights to sue them in small claims court if you choose to do so. I wasn't trying to dissuade you from doing so. I just wanted to point out - in case you hadn't thought of it - some possible scenarios (with them trying to claim damages, etc.)

If they're ignoring you, by all means, I'd file suit to the full extent allowed by law!

If they're ignoring you, by all means, I'd file suit to the full extent allowed by law!

I think so too, but it's not easy to sue someone who does not live in the county where the house is located, and I don't live in the county either. So I don't know which county to file this case.

Any suggestion?

You need to sue in the county where the house is located. We are in a similar situation except now everyone involved is now living out of state.

I think so too, but it's not easy to sue someone who does not live in the county where the house is located, and I don't live in the county either. So I don't know which county to file this case.

Any suggestion?

If you want to proceed with a lawsuit, yes, it would be in the county where the property is located. Some small claims cases can be handled by an "agent" for you. It doesn't have to specifically be an agent - they just call the person acting on your behalf your agent.
A call to the Justice of the Peace or Magistrate in the county and precinct where the property is located can tell you if you need to appear in person both to file suit and appear at the hearing. Then, as far as the LL is concerned, it's up to him to make it to court or not. If he doesn't, you'll most likely get a default judgement against him.

If, because of geography, suing is more than you're able to do, then the best I can suggest is a WRITTEN letter, sent certified mail, return receipt requested, as well as an additional copy sent by regular mail telling the landlord that the law states XYZ, and he hasn't complied. If he doesn't comply by XX date you'll be forced to file a suit against him in small claims court. You'd basically be bluffing (if you have no intention of actually suing), but he doesn't need to know that. I think a formal letter by certified mail would get my attention way more than an email.

You'd basically be bluffing (if you have no intention of actually suing), but he doesn't need to know that.

I'm not sure if this works because my landlord is a lawyer. He may use his advantage; I know it's not fair and improper, though.

I'm not sure if this works because my landlord is a lawyer. He may use his advantage; I know it's not fair and improper, though.


Is he a practicing attorney? WOW!

I still stand by my advice of either going ahead with the lawsuit or send him the letter as I suggested. I think the key is that you need to point out in the letter that you know he is breaking the law. It is "just" a civil matter, but still... He may be less intimidated by a letter than a non-lawyer would be, but that way if you DO wind up suing him I think it strengthens your case and weakens his.

The only senerio I can guess is that the landlord may be waiting to be sued in order to counter sue for something, although he has nothing to sue me. This way, he can ignore anything until it happens.

The scenario I'd guess is that he's an attorney and used to his tenants being intimidated by this. Therefore he routinely makes a practice of not returning security deposits and usually the tenants are too scared of his being a lawyer to do anything about it.

As an attorney I don't believe he'd hesitate to sue you if he had anything to come after you for.

The landlord refused to receive my certified mail, and it was returned.

I guess he wants to go to a small claim court.

Is there a place like BBB for lawyers?

Save refusal and take it with you to court. Hopefully the judge will take that into consideration when he is deciding if your landlord is acting in bad faith.

I haven't rechecked the CA statute. But most state laws say that if the deposit is not returned according to statute, then the landlord forfeits the right to withhold anything from the deposit.

If the law provides for damages, I really can't imagine a landlord rolling the dice and risking double or treble damages just to keep the security.

If the law provides for damages, I really can't imagine a landlord rolling the dice and risking double or treble damages just to keep the security.

I still think that's he's risking it because he's used to his tenants being intimidated by the fact that he's an attorney to the point where they don't wind up suing him.

I personally know landlords who routinely keep security deposits and RARELY get sued.

I hate it, because it gives all landlord's a bad image, but I don't think it's uncommon.