According to the 10 commandments we shall not make a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in the heaven above.Wouldnt a picture or a carving in church or home be considered a sin?Jesus is in heaven according to the Bible and our beliefs.I have always felt it is in faith we worship him.I had never felt comfortable with pictures or carvings of him nor Mary. I feel like I'm sinning if I do.

We shall not worship anything other than God.

How about "carvings" of crosses... like are seen in most Christian Churches? Are you OK with that?

I don't have any crosses in my house either.Just because I don't know if it is all right or not.

Is it a sin to worship a picture, painting or carving of Jesus? ...//.. I had never felt comfortable with pictures or carvings of him nor Mary. I feel like im sinning if i do.
Can you please state WHY you feel that way ?
Sounds to me that you are wasting your life away worrying about if you are sinning or not.
What is the purpose of life, if you do not live it to the fullest ?

:>)

.

I do live my life to the fullest.But at the same time I am trying to do what I believe is right. Ever since I was young I have felt this way.I would go to church every Sunday with my parents and brother, and all I kept thinking about was all of the people around me praying while looking at a huge wall carving of Jesus. I thought what if all these people were actually sinning considering that carving is of someone in the heavens.Right below the carving was the Ten Commandments written out on a large piece of board.All I did was put 2 and 2 together and started thinking about it.I have met many others that wonder the same thing I do.

CHRISTOPHER ROBIN,

Worshipping a cross or a statue of Jesus would be just as wrong as worshipping a statue of anything else. Using the picture or a statue as a reminder is not wrong and that is the motive in most churches. It is a symbol of what we worship but it is NOT what we worship.

In the Screwtape Letters, a fictional story about a demon (Screwtape) talking to his nephew, C S Lewis wrote this about the subject:

“Humans do not start from that direct perception of Him which we, unhappily, cannot avoid. They have never known that ghastly luminosity, that stabbing and searing glare which makes the background of permanent pain to our lives. If you look into your patients mind when he is praying, you will not find that. If you examine the object to which he is attending, you will find that it is a composite object containing many quite ridiculous ingredients. There will be images derived from pictures of the enemy as He appeared during the discreditable episode known as the Incarnation: there will be vaguer- perhaps quite savage and puerile- images associated with the other two Persons. There will even be some of his own reverence (and the bodily sensation accompanying it) objectified and attributed to the object revered. I have known cases where what the patient called his 'God' was actually located-up and to the left at the corner of the bedroom ceiling, or inside his own head, or in a crucifix on the wall. But whatever the nature of the composite object, you must keep him praying to it-to the thing that he has made, not to the Person who has made him."

The real danger is not with objects but with the mind. It is how you perceive God that matters. Pray not to the god of your mind's imagination but to the one true God. This is the message of the Bible.

- BC

Yes the worshiping of any statue or photo is wrong. But then I don't know any of the major religions that want you to worship them, The Orthodox Church has and uses more ICONs that any other denomination that I know of. They are used to help remind you of the life of great religious people, and to bring you a love and closeness of God.

I will be honest I may recommend where ever you have been getting so much of this off based religious teachings, start looking up facts on the churches web sites,

yes the worshiping of any statue or photo is wrong. But then I don't know any of the major religions that want you to worship them, The Orthodox Church has and uses more ICONs that any other denomination that I know of. They are used to help remind you of the life of great religious poeple, and to bring you a love and closeness of God.

I will be honest I may recommend where ever you have been getting so much of this off based religious teachings, start looking up facts on the churches web sites,Do you mean facts like people bowing before the pope, the kissing of his ring.Catholics do this and the last time I checked the pope wasn't God.The pope bows before a statue of Mary. That would be worshiping a false idol, as far as I know.Theres a lot of denominations and only one true God.Somethings not right.

Those are just your assumptions about things which you don't understand.


Do you mean facts like people bowing before the pope,

We bow before the Pope because he represents Christ:
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Notice that Jesus gave Simon the name that represents Himself:
1 Corinthians 10 4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.)


the kissing of his ring.

We kiss the Pope's ring, every Bishop's ring, for the same reason. They represent Christ to us:
1 Corinthians 4 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.


Catholics do this and the last time I checked the pope wasn't God.

But Jesus is God and Jesus appointed the Pope to represent Him on this earth. Just a God appointed Moses to represent Him in the Old Testament:
Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.


The pope bows before a statue of Mary.

Sure does. Because she is Jesus' mother. The Queen of Heaven:
3 Kings 2 19 Then Bethsabee came to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonias: and the king arose to meet her, and bowed to her, and sat down upon his throne: and a throne was set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right hand.



That would be worshiping a false idol, as far as I know.

No. A worshipping a false idol would be to pretend that the idol were God. We know that Mary is not God. We simply venerate Mary as we see the Angel of God do in Scripture:
Luke 1 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.


There's a lot of denominations and only one true God.Somethings not right.

That's true. God has provided a Church which He says is infallible:
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And which He expects us to obey:
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

But some men insist on doing what they want rather than what God wants.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Do you mean facts like people bowing before the pope, the kissing of his ring.Catholics do this and the last time i checked the pope wasnt God.The pope bows before a statue of Mary. That would be worshiping a false idol, as far as i know.Theres alot of denominations and only one true God.Somethings not right.
Christopher : "there are a lot of ways that lead to Rome". An old saying but still correct.
If you feel that "people bowing before the pope, the kissing of his ring, the pope bowing before a statue of Mary, etc. does not agree with your religious views, than just don't do that.

But why should other people believe exactly the same way as you do?

The essence of Christianity is not in words or habits or customs, but in deeds.
It is about how you live your life, how and what you believe, and how you treat others.

You may believe in one "true God". But with so many christian denominations fighting each other about who is the "true follower" of that "true God" it seems that the message and mission of Christianity itself has gone totally lost.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Do you mean facts like people bowing before the pope, the kissing of his ring.Catholics do this and the last time i checked the pope wasnt God.The pope bows before a statue of Mary. That would be worshiping a false idol, as far as i know.Theres alot of denominations and only one true God.Somethings not right.

Let me see if you are in the US, do you stand and put your hand over your heart
For the national anthem, are you worshiping the flag.

No people show respect to the Pope, they show him honor, and
People give reverence to mary, it is not worship. It is merely you totally
Misunderstand what they are doing. This is not to say a few people don't do it wrong, since they like you misunderstand, But no they are not woshiping the Pope, or Mary

You see to have fear, fear that anything is going to be wrong if you do anything about religion. Worshiping of Chrsit should not be anything that has fear in it, If you are scared to have a cross in your home, because it could be a worship, somewhere someone has given you so much fear that you can not find the love that you are suppose to find.

Let me see if you are in the US, do you stand and put your hand over your heart
for the national anthem, are you worshiping the flag.

No people show respect to the Pope, they show him honor, and
people give reverence to mary, it is not worship. It is merely you totally
misunderstand what they are doing. This is not to say a few people don't do it wrong, since they like you misunderstand, But no they are not woshiping the Pope, or MaryYou are worshipping the flag in my opinion.I PLEDGE ALLEGANCE TO THE FLAG.My allegance is with no other than God and His son Jesus.

You see to have fear, fear that anything is going to be wrong if you do anything about religion. Worshiping of Chrsit should not be anything that has fear in it, If you are scared to have a cross in your home, because it could be a worship, somewhere someone has given you so much fear that you can not find the love that youare suppose to find.For God is a jealous god.Fear Him.

For God is a jealous god.Fear Him.Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Dueteronomy 10:12, 20:21 what does the Lord your God require from you, but to fear the Lord your God. So my answer is YES FEAR THE LORD.

I'm going to state this from a Christian point of view, although the situation is the same for all religions:

Here's the problem with worshiping a picture or statue: You're supposed to understand that God and Jesus are right there in the room with you, any time you ask them to be. You don't need to go through an image of them to get to them. You can cut out the "middleman", and speak directly to the source. They are right there, ready to listen. In the same way, you don't need to go through any pope/bishop/priest to get to God. Just start talking to him, he's already listening.

The real God, is the LIVING God. He's right here, right now, right this minute.

That is why, in the ten commandments, we were told not to create any image of God, because it is a human's natural tendency to start worshiping, and becoming obsessed by, the image, thinking that they need to have that image with them to be close to God. We are supposed to understand that the living God is right there with us, whether we have a pretty picture of Him or not.
That's one way in which wars start. Somebody makes an image of God, somebody else thinks that they need to have that image in their possession to be closer to God, so people start killing each other over an object which has no intrinsic value.

Someday man will realize that the entire universe is God's church, and that we don't need to "go to church", and we don't need to listen to any old white men in funny hats to be close to the Supreme Being.

You don't get to God by reading a book, you get to God by looking inside yourself. He's right there, waiting for you to discover Him.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Dueteronomy 10:12, 20:21 what does the Lord your God require from you, but to fear the Lord your God. So my answer is YES FEAR THE LORD.

CHRISTOPHEROBIN, please. Come on now. God Is LOVE. A Supreme Being does NOT need to you fear Him.
He's the Supreme Being. He knows and has experienced more than you probably ever will or could.
We are such small minded beings compared to The One True God, anything we do probably just seems silly, and actually, even cute, to Him. (Although I'm sure war and rape and child abuse do not seem "cute" to Him, most of the range of human foibles, I'm sure, do.) He knows we're going to fall down, He knows we're going to fail Him and ourselves.
BUT, He also knows where this is all leading, and He knows that, no matter what we do, this is all going to end in a beautiful reconnection of the fragmenting of His consciousness that began this cute little play that we call history, and the physical universe. (THAT is "The Wedding" that Jesus referrers to in the Gospels.)

When you feel love well up in your heart, be it for a person, or your favorite pet, or whatever, THAT is the part of God that you carry with you, momentarily welling up inside you, filling you with His presence.

Honestly, God does NOT need you to fear Him. He just wants you to get to know Him.
Remember, the love that God feels for you is deeper, and more pure, than the love you would feel for even your own children.

Remember also, that even the Pope himself said that we must look to the Bible for "Faith, NOT FACTS". That's straight from the Pope's mouth.
It's a book of man, ABOUT God. It is NOT God's Book.

The Book that God wrote, well, we call that "The Known Universe" (and beyond). And, I got to say, I'm a huge fan of His writing.

CHRISTOPHEROBIN, please. Come on now. God Is LOVE. A Supreme Being does NOT need to you fear Him.
He's the Supreme Being. He knows and has experienced more than you probably ever will or possibly could.
We are such small minded beings compared to The One True God, anything we do probably just seems silly, and actually, even cute, to Him. (Although I'm sure war and rape and child abuse do not seem "cute" to Him, most of the range of human foibles, I'm sure, do.) He knows we're going to fall down, He knows we're going to fail Him and ourselves.
BUT, He also knows where this is all leading, and He knows that, no matter what we do, this is all going to end in a beautiful reconnection of the fragmenting of His consciousness that began this cute little play that we call history, and the physical universe. (THAT is "The Wedding" that Jesus referrers to in the Gospels.)

When you feel love well up in your heart, be it for a person, or your favorite pet, or whatever, THAT is the part of God that you carry with you, momentarily welling up inside you, filling you with His presence.

Honestly, God does NOT need you to fear Him. He just wants you to get to know Him.
Remember, the love that God feels for you is deeper, and more pure, than the love you would feel for even your own children.

Remember also, that even the Pope himself said that we must look to the Bible for "Faith, NOT FACTS". That's straight from the Pope's mouth.
It's a book of man, ABOUT God. It is NOT God's Book.

The Book that God wrote, well, we call that "The Known Universe" (and beyond). And, I gotta say, I'm a huge fan of His writing.My answer is taken from His book.Why would you call Him a liar.Sure you didn't use the word liar, but you are turning your back on His word.Your are some fan,cant even follow what u read.Im not here to judge, that's His job.Im here to follow His Word.

My answer is taken from His book.Why would you call Him a liar.Sure you didnt use the word liar, but you are turning your back on His word.Your are some fan,cant even follow what u read.Im not here to judge, thats His job.Im here to follow His Word.If you truly believe what you say, then next time you pray to the Almighty tell Him that you don't fear him.He can do more than we could ever imagine, that is reason enough to fear Him.

My answer is taken from His book.Why would you call Him a liar.Sure you didnt use the word liar, but you are turning your back on His word.Your are some fan,cant even follow what u read.Im not here to judge, thats His job.Im here to follow His Word.


HIS WORD? Did you even read what I said?
I'll say it again:
The Bible is a book of man ABOUT GOD. Look to THE BOOK for "FAITH, NOT FACTS".
The Bible is an awesome book. There is so much wisdom in it. It can really help a person when they are in a time of need or are questioning things, but it was written by men ABOUT GOD.
God 'wrote' this reality we exist in, then we wrote a book trying to explain it.
That is the truth.

And, yeah, just to be clear, I did not, and would NEVER call God a liar, don't put words in the mouth of a true believer.
(By the way, I have to get going to work, but I'll check back tonight, if you'd like to continue this discussion.)

God be with you my friend.

HIS WORD? Did you even read what I said?
I'll say it again:
The Bible is a book of man ABOUT GOD. Look to THE BOOK for "FAITH, NOT FACTS".
The Bible is an awesome book. There is so much wisdom in it. It can really help a person when they are in a time of need or are questioning things, but it was written by men ABOUT GOD.
God 'wrote' this reality we exist in, then we wrote a book trying to explain it.
That is the truth.

And, yeah, just to be clear, I did not, and would NEVER call God a liar, don't put words in the mouth of a true believer.
(By the way, I have to get going to work, but I'll check back tonight, if you'd like to continue this discussion.)

God be with you my friend.Again, fear Him.Bible references that also say to fear Him.In the Torah-Genesis 15:1-20:11-22:12-42:18. Exodus 1:17-1:21-9:20-9:21-9:30-15:16-18:21-20:17-34:10.Leviticus 19:14-19-32-25:17-25:36-25:43.The Holy Bible-Leviticus-25:17- Deuteronomy-4:10-6:2-6:13-6:24-10:12-10:20-14:23-31:12-31:13. Joshua-24:14. 1 Samuel-12:14-12:24 2Kings-17:39. 1 Chronicles-16:25. Nehemiah-5:9. Job-28:28.Psalm-19:9-25:14-33:8-33:18-34:9-96:4-103:11-103:13-103:17-111:10-112:1-115:13-128:147:11. Proverbs-1:7-14:2-22:4-24:21.Eucleiastes-5:7-12:13.Isaiah-8:13. Hosea-3:5. Malachi-2:4and5. Jeremaih-5:22. Mathew-10:28.Luke-12:5-1:50. Romans3:10-18.
2Corinthians7:1. Ephesians5:21. Colossians-3:22. Hebrews-10:31. 1 Peter 2:17. Revelation-14:7-15:4.Do you still believe you don't have to fear God? This should be enough to convince you.

If you truely believe what you say, then next time you pray to the Almighty go ahead and tell Him that you dont fear him.He can do more than we could ever imagine, that is reason enough to fear Him.Remember you just think what we do is silly or even cute in His eyes, why would you be worried.

If you truely believe what you say, then next time you pray to the Almighty go ahead and tell Him that you dont fear him.He can do more than we could ever imagine, that is reason enough to fear Him.
Remember you just think what we do is silly or even cute in His eyes, why would you be worried.
Are you now reacting to your own posts ?

:)

Are you now reacting to your own posts ?

:)

I noticed that too, that's what happens when arguments go awry.

If you truely believe what you say, then next time you pray to the Almighty go ahead and tell Him that you dont fear him.He can do more than we could ever imagine, that is reason enough to fear Him.

We can be certain that any descriptive term we use for God, in isolation, will fall well short of illuminating all that He is. The best we can do is to continually appreciate and accept all His many qualities, without neglecting those we do not understand.

Sometimes we are guilty of overlooking the fact that Jesus became a complete man, and then sometimes we are sometimes guilty of forgetting His awesome power, His supremacy and His authority.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with our image of the peaceful and kind Jesus who calls children to Him and always turns the other cheek. It's a completely accurate although incomplete description of our Lord. As an extension of that image, we may have the idea that if we were to meet Jesus face to face, we would shake His hand, perhaps give Him a hug and then go grab a coffee.

The passage from Isaiah 6:1-5 is a startling reminder of what would happen if we were to actually meet our God face to face, revealed to us in all His true glory. Like Isaiah, in the presence of the almighty God, seated on His throne, we would fall on our knees and proclaim "Woe is me - my eyes have seen the King!"

Let us never forget that God is to be feared. God is to be respected. He is the creator of everything seen and unseen, and deserves our worship and adoration. His power is limitless and without equal. His glory and holiness are beyond our limited measure.

[QUOTE]Wouldn't a picture or a carving in church or home be considered a sin?

In short, yes. True christians adhere to the commandment to worship only God. Not through idols, or pictures or other humans.
John 4:24 states that God is a spirit so we should worship him with spirit and truth.
Psa 115:4-7 explains how the worship of idols (or any object) is pointless. 2 Cor 5:7 - "we are walking by faith not by sight." Do we really need something in front of us to remind us who we are worshipping?

The same goes for national flags. Our devotion should be to God alone, not man and his country.
John 17:14,15 "I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.  I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."

These are my thoughts. Let the Holy Spirit guide you. :)

Wouldnt a picture or a carving in church or home be considered a sin?
In short, yes. True christians adhere to the commandment to worship only God. Not through idols, or pictures or other humans.
The first reaction I get from these lines is a direct aversion to your "True christians".
Any post suggesting any view or viewpoint to be "true" should be treated as plague, ebola, STD, or MRSA .
Specially as the only support for that "true" is belief-only based, totally lacking any OSE.

I did not see any mentioning of worshopping of these pictures and carvings in his post.
Why can't you accept that beautiful pictures, statues, and carvings just raise the total ambiance and provide a more open attitude towards worshopping the focus of the Christian belief?

If you simply do not like to be surrounded by pictures etc. than don't : you are free to do so. But to condemn pictures etc. as sin? That is more a display of reformist closed-mindedness.

Note : that does not mean that I agree with CHRISTOPHEROBIN's viewpoint !

:rolleyes:

Thanks Crede, I was looking at the main title of this question, which mentions worship, or maybe I'm reading into the question too much.
If we have a beautiful painting of scenery on the wall or a pretty glass swan on the mantle, one would assume these are not being worshipped or venerated (if that is what you are talking about), but if it be a statue or picture of Jesus or Mary, I wouldn't feel comfortable with them either Chris. In someone else's home, that is their choice, but not in my home. :)

CHRISTOPHEROBIN
I am a Catholic and I do not worship anything or anyone other than God.
I know many Christians of several denominations where there are crosses and statues and paintings and lead glass widows with beautiful images in them but none are worshiped, only God is.
If someone bows to another person it is not worshiping that person it is paying them honor.
Honor and worship are vastly different things.
I honor, praise, revere, adore, and worship God. Every one of those activities is different than worship.
The icons you speak of are used to remind people of the ever presence of God and/or His saints or of various bible stories.
Several people here have explained that to you in different ways.
I hope that their efforts have help you dispel your fear of religious artifacts for artifacts is really all that they are.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Sorry I had to leave the discussion for a while, anyway... I agree completely with everything BlakeCory said. He's stated my point of view much more clearly than I've been able to, and I've highlighted below the sections that I am especially referring to:

We can be certain that any descriptive term we use for God, in isolation, will fall well short of illuminating all that He is.
The best we can do is to continually appreciate and accept all His many qualities, without neglecting those we do not understand.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with our image of the peaceful and kind Jesus who calls children to Him and always turns the other cheek. It's a completely accurate although incomplete description of our Lord.
The passage from Isaiah 6:1-5 is a startling reminder of what would happen if we were to actually meet our God face to face, revealed to us in all His true glory. Like Isaiah, in the presence of the almighty God, seated on His throne, we would fall on our knees and proclaim "Woe is me - my eyes have seen the King!"

Let us never forget that God is to be feared. God is to be respected. He is the creator of everything seen and unseen, and deserves our worship and adoration. His power is limitless and without equal. His glory and holiness are beyond our limited measure.

OK, see, especially when you say it like that, I completely agree: Just like, when I was a small child, I loved my dad, but I also feared him. Yes, we are but small-minded children compared to God. And He should always, in the sense that BlakeCory means it, be feared, revered, respected, honored, and worshiped.

I guess I'm saying there's a difference between blind fear and fear born from respect.

I hope that clarifies my stance a bit more, and BlakeCory, thank you for stating my point of view in an obviously much more clear fashion than I was able to.

Go be with you all.

"May your troubles be as few and far between as my dear old grandma's teeth"

worfpunk,
I agree 100% with you and BlakeCory on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

... wow CHRISTOPEROBIN, I aplogize for you having to read so many bad posts... You ask a good question wth a simple answer. You also have a good viewpoint on ONE GOD. I am going to try not to begin quoting scripture so as not to give these other guys so much to seethe over. God reminds throughout the whole Bible to not make or bow down to any graven image; nether should you worship any. God is a spirit, he has no physical body. If you read about world religions, the most important thing to have is and IMAGE of their god or gods. God needs no IMAGE to show His greatness. I would love to have more discussins with you, but as of this thread, I do not want it to become an debate.

notrubillah,
True, God himself tells us nit to worship nay graven image,
But also note the God commanded various images erected or made for various purposes.
The temple He commanded to be built was full of graven images each with a symbolic meaning to aid focus.
Today we have certain Christian denominations that have images in their Churches.
Some are very simple such as a cross. Others are beautiful painting or leaded windows or statues.
They are not there for people to worship but rather to depict a bible story or as an aid to focus a person's attention such as a statue of the holy family or a Christmas cretch display.
Also the bible tells us that Jesus is an image, "The visible image of the invisible God"
Peace and kindness,
Fred

.

well... I really do not feel that this is answering CHRISTOPHEROBIN's question. You seem to want to defend your own statues in your comments. I am sorry if your church worships statues, maybe you should find another church, one that worships one God. Angels were erected in the temple of Solomon, Moses erected the brazen serpent, and at first, your argument seems solid. Where you lack understanding is that the brazen serpent was destroyed since people started worshipping it, and where were there ANY statues of humans placed inside a temple? The angels erected above the Arc of the Covenant were not ICONs to remind us of holy people. The man Jesus Christ was the visible image of the invisible God. Jesus reminded us not to make any statues Himself. Jesus when he was on earth did not want to make a following of people that worshiped an image. He came to get the lost sheep of the house of Israel to worship God in Spirit and Truth. It was only after he died that this promise was extended to the gentiles, thanks to Peter. Did Peter or any of the other 120 saints need any ICONs to help them get the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost? If they did not need them then, why would we need them now? I am not trying to step on anybodies toes, if you have a picture of angels, or little statues, go ahead, I personally don't. The question on this post was simple. It is truly that YES, it is a sin to worship any statue or image.

I can see nothing wrong with wearing a cross necklace. It is symbolic of Christianity and a reminder of what Christ did for us. I personally find pictures of the Lord tacky and wouldn't want one in my home. NOT because I think I am worshiping it though... just personal taste.

Now, as far as bowing to any man.. that is where I draw the line. NO WAY. It is wrong, I bow only before the Lord Jesus Christ. The pope had to be saved from his sins the same as I did. It is wrong.

notrubillah,
Please get this straight.
I nor any other Catholic or person of other denominations who have statues or pictures worships them.
I resent the implication that I do. It is purely false.
Where you get that idea from is an old, old distortion of the true facts.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Well to me it is legalism when you suggest someone CAN'T have a picture of the Lord or a cross or a statue. Put it in perspective... if people are coming before it and bowing and worshipping.. ok I have a problem. But most people just love the Lord and want to display it. You can make anything a sin if you want to.

classyT,
Point well made.
Thank you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

... When you pray to God what comes to mind? Is it the crucifix hanging between your palms? That pretty angelic depiction of the tri-une god that is on the church ceiling. What great work has any saint done to deserve a statue in God's house? I am sorry for sounding condescending to our catholic friends. I call it where I see it. Why would you do something that the Bible tells you not to? I believe that some paintings of angels and times of the Bible are beautiful, but surely do not have any place inside church. I know that all depictions of Jesus are only artistic depictions of what the artist wanted to portray. God is a Spirit; He has no flesh or bones. Thinking on the fact that Jesus is the expressed Image of God, why would we try to remake this image with IMAGEs? Jesus specifically told us not to. This foolishness has further expressed how untoward humanity really is. Man needs no image to pray, and when you get the Holy Ghost, you tend to find the IMAGEs quite gaudy and a lot of times brutal. Why debate over this? God said don't do it, why do it? I am tired of hearing "well I don't think". Mainstream Christianity is falling prey to the same problems Athens had when Paul saw all their religions; he quickly rebuked them for doing such.

Notrubillah,

That was quite the little diatribe. Sadly, it's also an uninformed diatribe. (Speaking for myself, I tend to find the uninformed diatribes to be the least compelling.)


... When you pray to God what comes to mind? Is it the crucifix hanging between your palms?

Not sure why you'd ask this, as though prayer were just a psychological exercise.


That pretty angelic depiction of the tri-une god that is on the church ceiling. What great work has any saint done to deserve a statue in God's house? I am sorry for sounding condescending to our catholic friends. I call it where I see it. Why would you do something that the Bible tells you not to?

Catholics don't. Neither do Eastern Orthodox. The Bible prohibits the proskunesis of anything other than God. The Catholic Church continues to abide by this: Catholics do not engage in the worship (proskunesis) of icons. Catholics do, however, venerate icons by showing respect. Veneration is a very ancient Christian practice, and we have icons dating to the earliest years of Christianity. Moreover, the placement of the corpus, or body, on a crucifix was instituted to combat docetism, i.e. the view that Christ didn't really come and die in the flesh. The placement of the corpus is a reminder that it was a real man of flesh and blood who died on the cross. This seems like a good thing.


I believe that some paintings of angels and times of the Bible are beautiful, but surely do not have any place inside church. I know that all depictions of Jesus are only artistic depictions of what the artist wanted to portray.

No, they are not just artistic depictions. Here's where it would have been a good idea to educate yourself before posting a rant. Icons express theological, religious, spiritual truths, just as the words of a book convey such truths. You have to remember that throughout its history, there have been a great many Christians who couldn't read. There still are. Stained glass in a church is a way of teaching the faithful the truths of the faith. So too in the case of others sorts of icons (whether they are paintings or statues or what have you): They educate us in our faith by the use of symbols, just as the printed word educates us in our faith by the use of symbols (in a book, the symbols represent words). To pray while gazing at an icon is no different that to pray while reading the Bible. It is a kind of meditative prayer.


God is a Spirit; He has no flesh or bones. Thinking on the fact that Jesus is the expressed Image of God, why would we try to remake this image with IMAGEs?

Because Jesus WAS flesh and bones, because Jesus wasn't pure spirit but was a human being who lived, suffered, and died. Just like us: we are human beings, and we are called to worship with our minds, our spirits, our bodies, and all our senses. Catholic worship includes elements that engage all of these: Catholics adopt different postures because the body participates in worship; Catholics burn incense and candles, use lots of different colors, play music and sing, etc. It is the whole person who worships.


Jesus specifically told us not to.

Jesus expressly condemned veneration? Where did he do that?


This foolishness has further expressed how untoward humanity really is. Man needs no image to pray, and when you get the Holy Ghost, you tend to find the IMAGEs quite gaudy and a lot of times brutal. Why debate over this? God said don't do it, why do it? I am tired of hearing "well I don't think". Mainstream Christianity is falling prey to the same problems Athens had when Paul saw all their religions; he quickly rebuked them for doing such.

You'd be better off devoting the time you take to type your rants to reading about the history of the religion to which you profess to belong. Nothing that you have singled out for your scorn is new. In fact, it's all very, very ancient.

Interestingly, the sort of iconoclasm you advocate is not itself new. It emerged in the eighth century and was an import from Islam adopted by some Christians who were heavily influenced by Islamic teaching. It is not native to Christianity.

notrubillah,
Please re-read Akoue's post slowly with an open mind.
Hes right both biblicly and historically.
Peace and kindness,
Fred,

Diatribe? Was my comment too aggressive? Sorry if you felt abused from my attacking rant. First I will give credit where it is due. Akoue, you truly seem like an intelligent individual, surely above my head in literary eloquence. You seem to have spent a little more time than really needed to put together such a well informed textbook counter argument. If you are not college educated, I would be truly chocked. Sadly though we are on two different sides of a VERY long table.
You called me an iconoclast? Personally I don't own any sledge hammers, but if I did, I don't believe I would get much joy out of smashing plaster. Sadly though, it seems the faith of Islam has one key element that mainstream Christianity seems to lack. They believe in ONE god. Although Allah is a sad misrepresentation of the one true God made by Ishmael, they did get one thing right.
I will answer you since you have taken so much pains taken time to deflate what you believe as a fools ranting.
Proskunesis? Microsoft word does not even have a proper spelling for proskunesis. It is one of them $5 words us common folk need to look up. Proskunesis in simple terms means to fall down before and worship. I know you will correct me if I am wrong. If I have given the impression that I personally believe you are consciously worshipping inanimate objects, it is not true. I am stating that it is wrong to carve, create, cast, any image (statue) and worship it. If God wanted statues of people put in His church, He would have told Solomon to do it. Just because the Catholic church has been doing it for so long does not make it right. The Catholic church has a history of changing theology continually. One easy thing you can look up is baptism. Catholics in the beginning of their church baptized in Jesus name, then, over the years they changed it to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One year the Pope said the communion bread became real flesh when taken, later another said it did not. The list goes on… I did not want to make this a catholic bashing session, but you keep throwing catholic theology at me.
Pictures for education? Not all people read, thankfully we live in a time that even the most unfortunate are usually able to read. Let’s go back a little though to the time of the apostles. If you can give me a single use by any apostle, or early church using paintings or statues to teach the illiterate, I would appreciate it. I don’t mean to directly ridicule, but want to keep things relevant.
I am not sure why you put “postures of worship” in your essay, but it held not water in any sense.
Last and truly not least is veneration. You ask a loaded question. Veneration is made of multiple aspects. The purpose is to honor previous saints. There is nothing wrong in respecting the past. There is a problem with worshipping it though. Through the making of statues and erecting them in the house of God, he distracts worship from the One God to other saints. There is no reason to pray to anyone but Jesus. In fact, the Bible warns against talking to the dead. I am sure you are familiar with these verses, but here you go anyway…Exo20:4, Lev26:1, Deu 4:16, Deu 4:23, Deu 4:25, Deu 5:8, Deu 9-whole chapter, Deu 16:22, Deu 27:15, Hab 2:18, Acts Ch19-whole chapter, Rom 1:23. It is not a sin to honor anybody, it is a sin to carve an image as unto the likeness to anything in Gods creation and worship.
I am not sure why you took so much time to express your concern, but there is only one truth. There is only one God, He came down and impregnated a common woman. He dwelled inside of a physical body, and resurrected that very same body to ascend to heaven. His name is Jesus. He and only He deserves all worship. There is no need for all these distractions. May they be statues or fancy cars, they are not God.

notrubillah
Still you do not understand.
Catholics do not worship idols or saints. They worship God.
As for for icons and images in the bible look them up here...
Ex 25:18-22, 26:1,31; Num 21:8-9... God commands images made.
1 Kings 6:23-29, 35, 7:29... Solomon's temple: statues and images.
Acts 19:11,12... Paul's handkerchiefs and aprons.
2 Kg 13:20-21... Elisha's bones.
Acts 5:15-16... Peter's shadow.
Mt 9:20-22... Jesus' garment cures woman.
I do not agree with your OPINION about pictures and statues in Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Exodus speaks about two cherubims around the mercy seat. Numbers speaks about the brazen serpent erected, it was not put in a church, nobody kissed it, in fact later (2 king 18:4) that very same IMAGE was broken down because people started worshipping it. 1 Kings speaks of more cherubims. None of these statues are of people, or placed all over the church. There were only specific locations for theses cherubims. The common person did not see them because of their location. The Oracle and the mercy seat were only places that the high priest was allowed to go. The rest of the referenes are great for showing what happened at some point or another in the Bible. God did not say to erect statues of people ever. He surely did not say to put the in His house. Where was any candles or incense burt for dead in the Bible? Please tell me where God tells people to kiss the toes of these statues.

...When you pray to God what comes to mind? Is it the crucifix hanging between your palms? That pretty angelic depiction of the tri-une god that is on the church ceiling. What great work has any saint done to deserve a statue in God's house? I am sorry for sounding condescending to our catholic friends. I call it where I see it. Why would you do something that the Bible tells you not to? I believe that some paintings of angels and times of the Bible are beautiful, but surely do not have any place inside church. I know that all depictions of Jesus are only artistic depictions of what the artist wanted to portray. God is a Spirit; He has no flesh or bones. Thinking on the fact that Jesus is the expressed Image of God, why would we try to remake this image with IMAGEs? Jesus specifically told us not to. This foolishness has further expressed how untoward humanity really is. Man needs no image to pray, and when you get the Holy Ghost, you tend to find the IMAGEs quite gaudy and a lot of times brutal. Why debate over this? God said don't do it, why do it? I am tired of hearing "well I don't think". Mainstream Christianity is falling prey to the same problems Athens had when Paul saw all their religions; he quickly rebuked them for doing such.

I hear you... and I am one (although I'm guilty of it from time to time) of saying "i don't think". HOWEVER, we are not under the law anymore but under grace. A symbol in someone's home of Christianity ( I have Bible verses displayed EVERYWHERE) is just that... don't make a big thing about it. Unless it really is an Idol. The Lord knows the heart.

Again as far as bowing before someone I'm NOT going to do that because it is clearly wrong. Giving someone respect is another thing. I am NOT catholic by the way. Not even close.

If I have given the impression that I personally believe you are consciously worshipping inanimate objects, it is not true. I am stating that it is wrong to carve, create, cast, any image (statue) and worship it.

And yet you keep asserting it, even after being informed that you are mistaken. You are right, it is wrong to worship an image. So it's a good thing neither Catholic nor Orthodox Christians do so. In fact, worship of an image is regarded as a grave sin. "Proskunesis" is the word used in the Bible, this is what is prohibited. There is no prohibition whatsoever against veneration or respect. Christians are not Jews, we don't have the same attitude toward images that Jews, and later Muslims, did.


If God wanted statues of people put in His church, He would have told Solomon to do it. Just because the Catholic church has been doing it for so long does not make it right. The Catholic church has a history of changing theology continually. One easy thing you can look up is baptism. Catholics in the beginning of their church baptized in Jesus name, then, over the years they changed it to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One year the Pope said the communion bread became real flesh when taken, later another said it did not. The list goes on… I did not want to make this a catholic bashing session, but you keep throwing catholic theology at me.

Yes, I am instructing you in Catholic theology, this for the reason that your earlier posts made a point of criticizing Catholic theology.

You are confused about baptism. We have documents from the first century which indicate that people were baptized using the Trinitarian formula that is still in use today. I am unaware of any Pope denying the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, but would be interested to be shown otherwise. The belief in the Real Presence is an unbroken tradition in the Catholic Church.


Pictures for education? Not all people read, thankfully we live in a time that even the most unfortunate are usually able to read.

You must be unanware of the shockingly high rates of illiteracy in many parts of the US. And then there is Asia, Africa, and Latin America. Lots of illiteracy in all those places. Also, I never claimed that the sole purpose of images is to teach the illiterate. That's just one really important purpose they've served--and still do.


Let’s go back a little though to the time of the apostles. If you can give me a single use by any apostle, or early church using paintings or statues to teach the illiterate, I would appreciate it. I don’t mean to directly ridicule, but want to keep things relevant.

Well, the earliest churches to have been found all had lots and lots of icons. The catacombs too. Is that what you're asking for?


I am not sure why you put “postures of worship” in your essay, but it held not water in any sense.

The whole person worships. The body too.


Last and truly not least is veneration. You ask a loaded question. Veneration is made of multiple aspects. The purpose is to honor previous saints. There is nothing wrong in respecting the past. There is a problem with worshipping it though.

Agreed, worship is prohibited. Veneration isn't.


Through the making of statues and erecting them in the house of God, he distracts worship from the One God to other saints.

Not at all.


There is no reason to pray to anyone but Jesus. In fact, the Bible warns against talking to the dead. I am sure you are familiar with these verses, but here you go anyway…Exo20:4, Lev26:1, Deu 4:16, Deu 4:23, Deu 4:25, Deu 5:8, Deu 9-whole chapter, Deu 16:22, Deu 27:15, Hab 2:18, Acts Ch19-whole chapter, Rom 1:23. It is not a sin to honor anybody, it is a sin to carve an image as unto the likeness to anything in Gods creation and worship.

Again, the worship of anything other than God is a grave sin. Catholics worship the Trinity and only the Trinity.

Also, Catholics aren't Jewish and so don't adhere to Jewish law. Do you?
Acts 19: Catholics don't worship false gods. Catholics worship the Holy Trinity.
Rom.1.23: Catholics don't worship false gods. Catholics worship the one true God, the Trinity. Worship belongs to God alone.


I am not sure why you took so much time to express your concern, but there is only one truth. There is only one God, He came down and impregnated a common woman. He dwelled inside of a physical body, and resurrected that very same body to ascend to heaven. His name is Jesus. He and only He deserves all worship. There is no need for all these distractions. May they be statues or fancy cars, they are not God.

Yes, there is only one truth. And you are on the wrong side of it. Veneration isn't a distraction from God. It brings us closer to him. If you find it a distraction, perhaps the problem is yours, not the Church's.

OK well Akoue, you have spoken... what did you accomplish? I appreciate that you have been turthful in admitting you worship multiple gods. If I did that, I would probably need statues too. If I dug up runes from a temple of Baal, I would probably find statues of Baal. The same does not surprise me about old Catholic churches... Before assuming on which side of the Truth I am on, you should figure out where you stand.

ClassyT, please don't think I attacking your home décor. Don't though think you are lawless. Christ said that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill. Romans chapter 2discusses the intent that we are not bound by the law. If we were bound by the law, we would all perish, but Grace is that saving factor. Grace is not blind though, it is a teacher unto perfection.

notrubillah,
Nowhere did I see that Akoue admitted to worshiping multiple Gods. He said that he worshiped the one and only God who also happens to be a trinity of three persons in one being.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

OK well Akoue, you have spoken...what did you accomplish? I appreciate that you have been turthful in admitting you worship multiple gods. If I did that, I would probably need statues too. If I dug up runes from a temple of Baal, I would probably find statues of Baal. The same does not suprise me about old Catholic churches... Before assuming on which side of the Truth I am on, you should figure out where you stand.

Well, what part of the simple distinction between worship and veneration do you not get? Is it just that you've sort of made up your mind that veneration looks kind of worshippy and so must be worship? If so, that doesn't look like a problem for anyone other than you. It certainly isn't anything that Catholics should worry about, that notrubillah thinks it looks kind of worshippy.

ClassyT, please don't think I attacking your home decor. Don't though think you are lawless. Christ said that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill. Romans chapter 2discusses the intent that we are not bound by the law. If we were bound by the law, we would all perish, but Grace is that saving factor. Grace is not blind though, it is a teacher unto perfection.


And when he said that he was talking to the Jewish nation. We are no longer under the law and the Apostle Paul taught that in his epistles.

Quoting De Maria :
We bow before the Pope because he represents Christ:
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

You left out the preceding verse 16 "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Peter wasn't the rock. Peter's confession that Jesus was the Son of the living God was the rock that his Church was to be built upon.

Quoting De Maria:
Catholics do this and the last time I checked the pope wasn't God. But Jesus is God and Jesus appointed the Pope to represent Him on this earth. Just a God appointed Moses to represent Him in the Old Testament:
Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Where do you find in the Bible that the pope represents Christ?

Quoting De Maria :
The pope bows before a statue of Mary. Sure does. Because she is Jesus' mother. The Queen of Heaven:

Where do find in the Bible that Mary is the Queen of Heaven?

God Bless

That voice you won't find a Catholic who can tell you where these things are in the Bible because they are part of Catholic tradition not Biblical revelation and we know that Jesus told us it is by your traditions you nullify the Word of God

Catholics cling to the idea that papal authority is essential for salvation, that those believers who are outside their church are somehow outside Christ's redemption

notribillah = halliburton backwards, Google notribillah, and you get NEW WORLD ORDER. There is some truth! There is only one almighty creator of all, Some call him,Allah, I am, Yeshua, God of Abraham, others call him YAwe, Jesus the son and holy ghost. This is the true power of the Universe. Any one, any where, can invoke his name and be overcome with his spirit through Prayer alone. Saturday is the true Sabbath day. Sat in spanish is SABADO = Sabbath Day, Seventh Day, Day of rest and of God. Sunday = The Day of the Sun = worship of RA - egyptian sun god. Constantine changed our calendars to make it work this way during roman empire. The lord says not to worship false idols in his name. Jesus had no budget for décor, he felt money was better spent on the poor or given away entirely and he is our ultimate example. Every major church spends more and more on décor every succeeding year, because churches are businesses. The truest faith on earth, has been the Hebrew religion, they have no paintings of their creator, because he is too devine. His nature is spiritual, as the nature of faith is only valuable to the individual, all else is truly seen as one form of vanity to another. Your church can be made of twigs and spit, the spirit will follow with his teachings, and sharings, regardless the monetary assets.

Quoting ThtVoiceInsideU :

You left out the preceding verse 16 "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Peter wasn't the rock. Peter's confession that Jesus was the Son of the living God was the rock that his Church was to be built upon.

Spoken like someone who hasn't read the Bible. If it were the confession, then Peter would not be the Pope. But Nathaniel. You see, Nathaniel made that confession before Jesus even gathered the 12 Apostles. Have you not read in Scripture:
John 1:49
Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Two things to note here. Just 6 verses earlier, Jesus had already changed Simon's name to Rock:
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

That proves one thing. The name which Jesus gave Simon, had nothing to do with the confession. It had to do with the capacity to which God had called Simon to serve.


Quoting ThtVoiceInsideU:

Catholics do this and the last time I checked the pope wasn't God.

I never said he was. Nor does the Catholic Church teach that he is God.



But Jesus is God and Jesus appointed the Pope to represent Him on this earth. Just a God appointed Moses to represent Him in the Old Testament:
Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Where do you find in the Bible that the pope represents Christ?

In the name which Jesus chose to give Simon. Cephas means Rock. And Jesus is the Rock of our faith. Do you deny it?

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Therefore, Jesus gave Simon His own name, thereby showing that Simon represents Christ before the people. He did it again in this verse:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

The Good Shepherd assigned Simon as the Vice-Shepherd, so to speak. To guide His sheep in His absence.

Quoting ThtVoiceInsideU :

Where do find in the Bible that Mary is the Queen of Heaven?

Rev 12:1
Revelation 12:1
King James Version (KJV)
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

That woman is Mary.


God Bless

You too,

Sincerely,

De Maria

That voice you won't find a Catholic who can tell you where these things are in the Bible because they are part of Catholic tradition not Biblical revelation and we know that Jesus told us it is by your traditions you nullify the Word of God

If you read my reply to Thtvoice.. you'll see that I pointed out the Scriptures he needed to know.

Oh and Christ objected to "traditions of men". But Scripture commands that we keep the Sacred Traditions of Jesus Christ. Which we do:
2 Thessalonians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


Catholics cling to the idea that papal authority is essential for salvation, that those believers who are outside their church are somehow outside Christ's redemption

YOU don't know Catholic doctrine very well. However, it is true that without the Sacraments, no one will be saved in this life.

Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And all Catholics are baptized with the only efficacious Baptism. The Baptism of Jesus Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

notribillah = halliburton backwards, google notribillah, and you get NEW WORLD ORDER. there is some truth! There is only one almighty creator of all, Some call him,Allah, I am, Yeshua, God of Abraham, others call him YAwe, Jesus the son and holy ghost. This is the true power of the Universe. Any one, any where, can invoke his name and be overcome with his spirit through Prayer alone. Saturday is the the true Sabbath day. sat in spanish is SABADO = Sabbath Day, Seventh Day, Day of rest and of God. Sunday = The Day of the Sun = worship of RA - egyptian sun god. Constantine changed our calenders to make it work this way during roman empire. The lord says not to worship false idols in his name. Jesus had no budget for decor, he felt money was better spent on the poor or given away entirely and he is our ultimate example. Every major church spends more and more on decor every succeeding year, because churches are businesses. The truest faith on earth, has been the Hebrew religion, they have no paintings of their creator, because he is too devine. His nature is spiritual, as the nature of faith is only valuable to the individual, all else is truely seen as one form of vanity to another. Your church can be made of twigs and spit, the spirit will follow with his teachings, and sharings, regaurdless the monetary assets.

No I will not call Jesus allah because that word is not used by muslims to refer to Jesus, but to a deity whose very description contradicts the Bible. Jesus is Yeshua, literally; I am salvation, a name God applied to himself in both the Old and the New Testament, I will also call him YHWH as the jews did although they would not speak that name.

Jesus is lord of the sabbath so it matters not what day we call the sabbath since how can we be sure of anything in our calendar, but as long as we observe a sabbath. Christians observe Sunday as a sabbath to commerate the risen Lord because if Jesus has not risen we have no salvation. The Bible tells us that such debates are futile