BWAH HA HA HA

John McCain has truly lost his mind!

Quiet now, let the publicity stunt/appeal to Clinton voters run its course. They NEED this!

You two are just too funny!!

She has more experience as a VEEP selection than the Presidential pick of the Dems has.

Well tom, that should seal the deal for you guys then. Congrats.

BWAH HA HA HA

John McCain has truly lost his mind!

I suppose most people vote for the candidate they think will win. I'll continue voting according to what my conscience dictates however and I can't vote for a candidate who is 100% in favor of abortion. So much so that he has even voted in favor of killing babies who are born alive after an abortion attempt. That is Obama, in case some people didn't realize it.

By the same token, John McCain is neither conservative enough nor strong enough on pro-life for me.

So I'll vote for Alan Keyes again:

AlanKeyes.com (http://www.alankeyes.com/)

Sincerely,

De Maria

Tom,

From a hick town in Alaska... a soccer/hockey mom, and looks it and acts it. The squeeky voice has to go!! The reason she is governor is because the other republican who wasn't a criminal fleecing taxpayers said, "Go ahead, take your turn at governor....." LOL!

McCain turned *72* today and with reoccurring cancer, look who he put one heartbeat away from Commander in Chief. How reckless!!

McCain just TOTALLY threw away the election on Nov 4th.

See you guys on Nov 5th. :D

DM,

Lots of you one issue voters out there in the red states hoping against hope that *reality* will disappear... but, it's always there with all the problems of a *real world* for government to deal with.

Bumblers like Bush(and McSame Palin) just make a more dangerous world.

DM,

Lots of you one issue voters out there in the red states hoping against hope that *reality* will disappear......but, it's always there with all the problems of a *real world* for government to deal with.

Interpretation please.

I can not wait for the debates to start Biden is going to eat her alive! I never thought I would hear someone who is running for VP use the PTA as a source of experience! This is to funny!

Sarah who?

I think you Dems are underestimating this lady. She is pro life, a social conservative, a fiscal conservative, from the middle working class, she speaks well, and is not afraid to attack what she opposes. I am starting to feel better about Nov. already, and you guys just may wind up with egg on your faces.

Then there is one thing that you will HAVE to agree on. She is the best looking vp candidate EVER.

Hello Gal:

Boy, you guys almost had me with the "experience" issue. Then you went and did this... I agree with Choux.

Bwa, ha ha ha.

excon

What I don't understand...

McCain's age has to be a little bit of a concern. This VP choice puts a vurtually unknown and completely inexperienced person one bad bean burrito from the Presidency.

I thought that experience (especially in foreign affairs) was supposed to be a big issue.

Apparently not.

I can see why this choice might appeal to social conservatives. But they wouldn't be voting for Obama anyway, would they?

Oh well.

His pick will go down in history as a Grand Slam.

With all the upset Hillary women out there, now they can really shove their dismay down the dems throats by REALLY voting for McCain, as many had already said they would do.

Not only that, she is a REAL conservative, a card carrying member of the NRA, hell, any woman that knows how to handle a gun is a winner in my books.

Obama should really stay away from anything that relates to experience.

BWAH HA HA HA

John McCain has truly lost his mind!


All the educated Republicans should be jumping ship about right now. John McCain is the Republican version of Walter Mondale, as is Sarah Palin is now their Geraldine Ferraro. I saw on CNN that the reaction is not favorable for his pick. It's already having a backlash among the far majority of the once ardent Hillary Democrats and even some moderate Republican women. Apparently John McCain has insulted all women across America with his last minute desperate measure to expose his skirt VP selection. John McCain is not fit to serve burgers at the local Sonic, with or without skates.

Prior to becoming Governor of Alaska, Palin was the mayor of a town of less than nine thousand people. People need to realize the total population of the State of Alaska is about the size of one mid size city, for example Austin (Texas). Meaning Palin actually has no experience or understanding of the complexity of large inner city issues, such as hard drugs trafficking and gang crime. John McCain has only met Palin once before. Once! This is the single most important decision a presidential candidate can make and the seventy-two year old John McCain blew it on a salmon fishing caribou herder that was chairman down at the local Moose lodge.

She is the anti Obama

NRA member - "clings to guns"

Pro -life [ 5 kids, last with Down's ] vs for killing fetuses.

Has executive and management experience. Although that may be mayor of a small town and govenor of a small [population] state, have McCain, Obama, Biden [ all senators ] any such "experience?"

She is for drilling in ANWR - doing something to help all of us paying > $3.50 / gallon of gas.

She has taken on the state's corrupt Republican establishment.
And not followed her party's line [ ahem, Obama ]

She was the point guard and captain of her small school state championship, Obama was the seventh man on his team. :)


YouTube - Barack and Basketball - REAL Sports with Bryant Gumbel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Lqm5emQl4)



I think she will energize the [socially] conservative base, and obviously will have appeal to women. This may be crucial in a tight race.



I question her foreign policy experience and was actually hoping McCain would have picked Romney, but the more I read about her, the more pleased I am with his choice.

I never thought I would hear someone who is running for VP use the PTA as a source of experience!


And I've never heard "community organizer " ever touted as a qualifier for President... oh yeah... Sharpton and Jackson had similar experiences but were better at it.

Where have Obama's buddies been to vouch for his accomplishments? Oh that's right, he has none. I'll take this 'hockey mom' who looks quite comfortable with an automatic weapon and had the character and courage to bring her Down's baby into this world over the empty suit that is Obama any day. Bring it on people, the fight has just begun and I think a lot of you are going to be surprised at how well she takes on her opponents.

I think you Dems are underestimating this lady. She is pro life, a social conservative, a fiscal conservative, from the middle working class, she speaks well, and is not afraid to attack what she opposes. I am starting to feel better about Nov. already, and you guys just may wind up with egg on your faces.

Then there is one thing that you will HAVE to agree on. She is the best looking vp candidate EVER.

The problem with her and her new "freshness" and her stances are that she is everything that the democrats would love... but opps... she isn't one... damn.:(

All the educated Republicans should be jumping ship about right now. John McCain is the Republican version of Walter Mondale, as is Sarah Palin is now their Geraldine Ferraro. I saw on CNN that the reaction is not favorable for his pick. It's already having a backlash among the far majority of the once ardent Hillary Democrats and even some moderate Republican women. Apparently John McCain has insulted all women across America with his last minute desperate measure to expose his skirt VP selection. John McCain is not fit to serve burgers at the local Sonic, with or without skates.

Prior to becoming Governor of Alaska, Palin was the mayor of a town of less than nine thousand people. People need to realize the total population of the State of Alaska is about the size of one mid size city, for example Austin (Texas). Meaning Palin actually has no experience or understanding of the complexity of large inner city issues, such as hard drugs trafficking and gang crime. John McCain has only met Palin once before. Once! This is the single most important decision a presidential candidate can make and the seventy-two year old John McCain blew it on a salmon fishing caribou herder that was chairman down at the local Moose lodge.

CNN?

CNN?
Commentary: Is McCain out of his mind? - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/29/begala.palin/index.html)

Alaska investigating governor's office - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/29/palin.investigation/index.html)

Exactly...

The investigation will go no were because the trooper in question ,Mike Wooten tasered his 11 year old son and clearly has a record as a bad cop.An investigation of him found that :
Wooten used a Taser on his stepson.
He illegally shot a moose.
He drank beer in his patrol car on one occasion.
He told others his father-in-law would "eat a f'ing lead bullet" if he helped his daughter get an attorney for the divorce.





"The record clearly indicates a serious and concentrated pattern of unacceptable and at times, illegal activity occurring over a lengthy period, which establishes a course of conduct totally at odds with the ethics of our profession," Col. Julia Grimes, then head of Alaska State Troopers, wrote in March 1, 2006, letter suspending Wooten for 10 days. After the union protested it, the suspension was reduced to five days.
newsminer.com • Scrutiny of Wooten raises conduct questions (http://www.newsminer.com/news/2008/jul/28/scrutiny-wooten-raises-conduct-questions/)

CNN?


Exactly.........

If you adjust that there tin foil antenna slightly and prop up yer old black and white TV on the moonshine jug... ya might just get moe than that there Fox network commentary. There really is life in the big city, but you going to have to graduate beyond Sean "hillbilly" Hannity, and Laura "little house of the prairie" Ingraham, to see it.

So far I've read 3 or so responses stating that they like this women because she can handle a gun. The absurdity of it all...

Seems like a desperate attempt to woo the angry Clinton women... If these women as a smart as they think they are they should be insulted.

If you adjust that there tin foil antenna slightly and prop up yer old black and white TV on the moonshine jug....ya might just get moe than that there Fox network commentary. There really is life in the big city, but you gonna have to graduate beyond Sean "hillbilly" Hannity, and Laura "little house of the prairie" Ingraham, to see it.

Bobby... you know nothing about me, not one iota. This sort of banter borders on slander and was absolutely not necessary from someone that I have followed in past posts and thought highly of and believe it or not had some respect for...

I am not going to honor your defamation and hatchet job with a defense. This was completely uncalled for Bobby...

You are entitled to form any opinions that you like about me or others, I don't form my opinions in the same manner, from the hip.

Thanks,

Stringer

She is the anti Obama

NRA member - "clings to guns"

Pro -life [ 5 kids, last with Down's ] vs for killing fetuses.

Has executive and management experience. Although that may be mayor of a small town and govenor of a small [population] state, have McCain, Obama, Biden [ all senators ] any such "experience?"

She is for drilling in ANWR - doing something to help all of us paying > $3.50 / gallon of gas.

She has taken on the state's corrupt Republican establishment.
And not followed her party's line [ ahem, Obama ]

She was the point guard and captain of her small school state championship, Obama was the seventh man on his team. :)




YouTube - Barack and Basketball - REAL Sports with Bryant Gumbel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Lqm5emQl4)



I think she will energize the [socially] conservative base, and obviously will have appeal to women. This may be crucial in a tight race.



I question her foreign policy experience and was actually hoping McCain would have picked Romney, but the more I read about her, the more pleased I am with his choice.


I wonder if anyone can talk about all of these issues without getting all fired up... (not trying to be negative, I am trying to stop it)
I like all of these points INTHEBOX!

Not to say I know who I am voting for even yet... which is really irritating, I am at a loss, they are both ding bats.

AND being from that HICK town and raised there all my life, I know it isn't a HICK town, you ever been there... lived there? DO some research on what the whole state is about and for... good and bad!

If you adjust that there tin foil antenna slightly and prop up yer old black and white TV on the moonshine jug....ya might just get moe than that there Fox network commentary. There really is life in the big city, but you gonna have to graduate beyond Sean "hillbilly" Hannity, and Laura "little house of the prairie" Ingraham, to see it.

Your comment was so clearly demfamatory, insulting, and just plain ignorant! I also had respect for some of your commentary prior to this, but I truly have to say I have lost all respect. I believe you should get off that high horse you are sitting on, and appologise. If anyone wants to know what is wrong with "America", it is this kind of behaviour, and assumptions about people they clearly know nothing about. That was nothing but a ludicrious, hateful statement, and should not be tolerated.

Startover

Clearly there is a contempt of small town America by the Obama campaign;the candidate and the Obots. But they should just for practical matters back off. Does he not recall that he was fading rapidly in the primaries because a video revealed his true feelings about small town Americans ?

Now it manifests itself in the dismissal of the accomplishments of Palin. I say that being a small town mayor alone gives her more practical executive experience than either Obama ir Biden have ever had. People who say that don't realize the task of a small town mayor. They do essentially the same thing as large town mayors except on a smaller scale;with more hands on functions since they don't have the same staffing .

Successful mayors ;governors and business CEOs learn to say No. They deal with limited resources.Palin has successful administrative experience.

She has been a true reformer in her Governor term. Nationally she is recognized as the governor with the best reputation for fighting pork, the governor with the best reputation in the nation for taking on the corrupt heavyweights in her own party, and one of the nation's most popular governors.Overall ;her total public career as an executive has been 16 years. The total combined executive experience of the Democrat team has been running their own campaigns.

As for foreign policy experience ;Alaska share borders with Canada and Putin's Russia . Clearly she already has as much ;if not more ,foreign policy experience as previous Governors who have become President like Carter ,Clintoon ,and GW Bush.

Alaska is the first line of defense in our missile interceptor defense system. The 49th Missile Defense Battalion of the Alaska National Guard is the unit that protects the entire nation from ballistic missile attacks. It's on permanent active duty, unlike other Guard units.
http://www.airdefenseartillery.com/online/Extracts/Missile%20Defense%20System%20Goes%20Operational.pd f
As governor of Alaska, Palin is briefed on highly classified military issues, homeland security, and counterterrorism. She's also the commander in chief of the Alaska State Defense Force (ASDF), a federally recognized militia incorporated into Homeland Security's counterterrorism plans.

Palin is privy to military and intelligence secrets that are vital to the entire country's defense. Given Alaska's proximity to Russia, she may have security clearances we don't even know about.

I will match her judgement on the issues with Biden (who's bloviating reminds me of Foghorn Leghorn).Even though his legislative career is full of so called foreign policy ;I question the judgement of someone who seriously contemplated and studied Iraq and in the end promoted a Lawrence of Arabia-like subdivision of Iraq..

Bottom line ;true she will be a "heartbeat away from the Presidency" .But unless McCain drops in the 1st few months of his term ;she will have sufficient time for "on the job training " . The bigger risk is electing Obama who will walk into the highest office in the land with no practical experience.

9qUVQDmLf7s

I have to say NK, thanks for the early morning chuckle! :D

:)

All the Dems had to do was pick a Penthouse Pet as a VP and show her holding a gun and a baby - the repubs would have voted with their little heads. :D

So far i've read 3 or so responses stating that they like this women because she can handle a gun. The absurdity of it all......

Seems like a desperate attempt to woo the angry Clinton women... If these women as a smart as they think they are they should be insulted.

Desperate? No, mine was in response to Choux and others trying to portray her as a wimpy "soccer/hockey mom, and looks it and acts it." She's no wimp.

I only know a few wimpy soccer/hockey moms... so I don't know what the heck they are talking about.
NK, I laughed... Of course you can't help to think that he is older and she is a younger hotty. Human nature, can't really help it, but can you tell me if you really think her good looks are going to be a problem for doing their jobs?

Tom, I thank you for the info, it was great and if I could give you a greenie, I would have. You made some really great points about being from a smaller town having to do so much more with so little help. I have heard so many good things about her... I just don't see why people are bashing her?

I jsut dont see why people are bashing her?Hello start:

How about that she would outlaw abortion even in the case of rape??

excon

I didn't see that... I didn't see it. Show me where it is!

Hello again, start:

There's a jillion articles about her politics. Just Google the words "Palin and abortion" She's an evangelical Christian. Her abortion stance shouldn't be surprising.

excon

I need to do more studying. You are so right about that. I will be googling Obama's stance on it too. That is what we all need to do. I don't mean to sound stupid, I mean only to get info from all of you guys. I add it into everything then go off my own view and add it all up to see who I am going to vote for.
I have a sister in law that works very close with her and many of the politicians in Alaska, so I would love to get her side as well. She is very liberal... so I wonder what she thinks. See you after I have done some reading;)

I don't even know if I am pro choice or not Excon, you all make very valid points on both sides of the fence. Trying to put myself in the shoes of others helps, but isn't always what I would do if it REALLY happened to me.

Hello again, start:

In my view, your decision can be made based upon one simple idea. If you're happy with the way things have gone over the last 8 years, vote for McCain. If you're not, vote for Obama. It really isn't any more difficult than that.

excon

Hello start:

How about that she would outlaw abortion even in the case of rape???

excon

Contrast that with Obama - would not try to keep a fetus alive that had survived an abortion.


Exactly what percent are due to rape and how many are elective?


She wants to outlaw killing a fetus - good for her.
She'll take a stance and not worry about paygrade:D

Contrast that with Obama - would not try to keep a fetus alive that had survived an abortion.
And you will give a reference for this factoid?

I think that if she were to become president, (far fetched but could happen) the whole wide world would not let her change it to where the women are not protected! You and I would not let that happen, would we? We get the chance to vote... right and the over turn of Roe vs. Wade... dont count on it!
I agree with inthebox on that, I would like to see babies born rather than die AFFTER they have been aborted in a women's arms.
But... that is not all that I worry about.
I have guns, (skell don't worry, I don't use them for anything but recreation) I would like my rights to stay the same. Hence Hitler... I suppose that is going a bit too far, but now a days, you never know!
I noticed that Obama doesn't want to have anything to do with Drilling in Alaska...
McCain doesn't either...
I disagree with both of them on drilling, so Palin thinks we should, I agree with her on that.
I agree we need to get troops out of Iraq, but not all, that surely could be devastating.

Another thing... anyone who votes for her JUST because she is a woman, is just plain stupid.
We all have our different views, I don't all the way believe that McCain is "McBush" but in some case you all are right.
I really like McCains wife too... she has done far more for her community than Obama's wife... I started a thread on it, but it got closed... darn it.
Obama is a smooth talker, his family is beautiful... he sounds great promising all those rainbows and chocolate chip cookies, I just don't believe it, so yes, Excon I would like things to stay more the same than take the chance on him... thus far! I still have not made up my mind. This is just how I have seen it and listening to you guys, well, you prove it time and again.
We just see differently and believe differently, that doesn't mean we all can't meet in the middle and try and get along. That is not such a far fetched comment if you all are willing to compromise!
I like someone who can stand up say what they mean and not care about hurting our feelings... I don't get that from Obama... Joe Biden, maybe... but not Obama

Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. Defends Partial-birth Abortion - Associated Content (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/77500/barack_hussein_obama_jr_defends_partialbirth.html? cat=9)
I think it is somewhere in there..

Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. Defends Partial-birth Abortion - Associated Content (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/77500/barack_hussein_obama_jr_defends_partialbirth.html? cat=9)
I think it is somewhere in there..
THAT'S your documentation??

Now, please do some honest research of your own on this. With Googling, it's easy and fun.

Wondergirl, I am trying here there is so much to read... it is not fun. I really am trying to find some answers...
Give me something.

EDIT::: I am a beginner here, that doesn't mean I don't have opinions or views on how I feel it should go.
What about health care? Do you all think we should have business driven health care or government run health care?

Wondergirl, I am trying here there is so much to read...it is not fun. I really am trying to find some answers...
Give me something.
Do you want the right-wing take on it or the liberal take on it? Or do you want to read the actual Illinois legislature report on it as to what was on the table and who said and did what, and then make up your own mind?

I am not either, I see and like both sides of the fence. So what ever that makes me, I suppose I will take what I can get on both parties. You see Wondergirl, I am not here to say my peace as much as I am here to learn about WHY others think and say the things they do... it gives me a better insight on why I want to believe in what I do.

Desperate? No, mine was in response to Choux and others trying to portray her as a wimpy "soccer/hockey mom, and looks it and acts it." She's no wimp.

Sorry Steve. You misunderstood me. I found it "absurd" that people mention the fact she loves holding a gun.

The "desperate" comment was in reference to McCain / Repubs choice of this seemingly unknown women all in an attempt to get the Clinton vote. Not the gun issue. That isn't desperate, just weird!! ;)

I know you isn't desperate Steve. Your too sure of yourself to be desperate! :)

What about health care? Do you all think we should have business driven health care or government run health care?
Well, there are companies that have died and left their retirees without health care. My husband worked 30 years for the all-American company called Western Electric which became AT&T which became Lucent which was bought out by a French company named Alcatel. Our health care program is currently in jeopardy. Business-driven health care is no longer a guarantee that it will always be there as long as you are associated with that company. So then what? Can we all afford private health care? If you think so, check out the premium cost for a few basic family plans.

I am not either, I see and like both sides of the fence. So what ever that makes me, I suppose I will take what i can get on both parties. You see Wondergirl, I am not here to say my peace as much as I am here to learn about WHY others think and say the things they do....it gives me a better insight on why I want to believe in what I do.
Well, if you aren't interested the truth of a situation and are more interested in who believes what, then I will bow out of this discussion.

The "desperate" comment was in reference to McCain / Repubs choice of this seemingly unknown women all in an attempt to get the Clinton vote. Not the gun issue. That isn't desperate, just weird!! ;) And apparently it isn't going to work:
CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Palin booed for mentioning Hillary Clinton « - Blogs from CNN.com (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/30/palin-booed-for-mentioning-hillary-clinton/)

This might not be the best way to reach out to those disillusioned Hillary Clinton supporters. In just her second appearance on the campaign trail with John McCain, newly-minted GOP running mate Sarah Palin was showered with boos on Saturday for attempting to praise Clinton’s trail-blazing bid to become the first female president.
As she did at in her debut speech in Ohio yesterday, Palin appealed to the women in the crowd here in Pennsylvania with a political shout-out to Geraldine Ferraro, who preceded Palin as the first women to be tapped as a vice presidential candidate.
But in contrast with the mild reception that greeted her comments at the Ohio event, when Palin praised Clinton here for showing “determination and grace in her presidential campaign,” the Alaska governor was met with a noisy mix of boos, groans and grumbles around the minor league ballpark where the “Road to the Convention Rally” was held.

I agree. I also see people on here talking of government run health care, and they have to see who the government says they have to see, they have to wait in line to be seen? Making an appointment sometimes gives you a wait of a month or longer. That doesn't sound good to me. Isn't there another way?
I suppose we could be private and pay what we normally pay, I don't see myself always paying my health care bills already, I would love another out on being able to get treatment and pay for it. ON TIME! We have a family of 6, our policy is not that good, my husbands employer pays the 7 or 8 hundred and we pay the 200 every month just to have it, then there are co-pays, and "it isn't covered bills" and the deductibles... I know Wondergirl, I do know something needs to give.

Well, if you aren't interested the truth of a situation and are more interested in who believes what, then I will bow out of this discussion.
What I am interested in... is what the opponents are going to do in certain situations. So I can base my opinion on that. Do we all not base our voting on what we believe? I don't get this comment.

What I am interested in .....is what the opponents are going to do in certain situations. Who are the "opponents"?

Obama and McCain... I am completely confused now. Are you laughing at me NK? Just a person needing to talk about issues to get a better feel on how things work in politics, that's all.

What I am interested in .....is what the opponents are going to do in certain situations. So I can base my opinion on that. Do we all not base our voting on what we believe? I don't get this comment.

The problem is we can only believe what they tell us they are going to do, or we can go on past record of how their particular party acted in certain situations. You said you were happy with what you have had for the last 8 years. Well vote for McCain. If not, Obama / Dems seem like the vote to me!

I didn't say I was happy with the last 8 years, what I said was that I am willing to keep things the "same"... too scared of the change. (not afraid to admit it)
I agree, we can only believe what they tell us... or we can research and find out that what they are telling us is a lie! Right? Isn't that what you guys do?

What I am interested in .....is what the opponents are going to do in certain situations. So I can base my opinion on that. Do we all not base our voting on what we believe? I don't get this comment.
We don't KNOW what "the opponents" are going to do in any given situation. We can find out what they've each done in the past (that's why I urged you to find out the truth of those situations, and not simply believe what a blogger thinks or believes happened), but as you know from your own behavior and the behavior of family members, what they have done in the past does not determine what they will do in the future when the influences and other variables will be different.

I didnt say I was happy with the last 8 years, what I said was that I am willing to keep things the "same"..... too scared of the change. (not afraid to admit it)
I agree, we can only believe what they tell us.....or we can research and find out that what they are telling us is a lie! Right? Isn't that what you guys do?

Fair enough with respect to change. I suspect a lot of people will vote for McCain out of fear of Obama. Though I don't see why!! I fear McCain myself. But for me it isn't too much an issue because these days down under here we have a prime minister who isn't just going to be a lap dog to the US president like in the past.

Yes, the only way to truly find out is research yourself and form your own opinion, and still then it isn't hard to be deceived. Just do yourself a favour though and don't believe everything you hear here AMHD :)

Wondergirl, I promise I will, thank you
Skell, I promise I won't, thank you

That's why in Libraryland we research every which way and even call the appropriate people to get to the truth of the matter, if it's even possible to get to the truth.

Tomder had said earlier in this thread,

As for foreign policy experience ;Alaska share borders with Canada and Putin's Russia . Clearly she already has as much ;if not more ,foreign policy experience as previous Governors who have become President like Carter ,Clintoon ,and GW Bush.

Alaska is the first line of defense in our missile interceptor defense system. The 49th Missile Defense Battalion of the Alaska National Guard is the unit that protects the entire nation from ballistic missile attacks. It's on permanent active duty, unlike other Guard units.
http://www.airdefenseartillery.com/o...rational.pdf
As governor of Alaska, Palin is briefed on highly classified military issues, homeland security, and counterterrorism. She's also the commander in chief of the Alaska State Defense Force (ASDF), a federally recognized militia incorporated into Homeland Security's counterterrorism plans.

There's an awful lot to chew on there. I sure would have dug into researching those "facts" to verify them before I had posted them.

And apparently it isn't going to work:
CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Palin booed for mentioning Hillary Clinton « - Blogs from CNN.com (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/30/palin-booed-for-mentioning-hillary-clinton/)

First of all, I don't think the main reason he chose her was to get the Clinton vote. I'm sure that was part of it, but more so to get social conservatives behind him and it worked.

First of all, I don't think the main reason he chose her was to get the Clinton vote. I'm sure that was part of it, but more so to get social conservatives behind him and it worked.How can you say it worked when people haven't voted yet?

Bobby...you know nothing about me, not one iota. This sort of banter borders on slander and was absolutely not necessary from someone that I have followed in past posts and thought highly of and believe it or not had some respect for..........

I am not going to honor your defamation and hatchet job with a defense. This was completely uncalled for Bobby.....

You are entitled to form any opinions that you like about me or others, I don't form my opinions in the same manner, from the hip.

Thanks,

Stringer

You didn't shoot from the hip? Come on. This is not my first rodeo. If you think CNN is questionable and an unreliable source for news than provide one that you think is better. I'm up for that debate.



Your comment was so clearly demfamatory, insulting, and just plain ignorant! I also had respect for some of your commentary prior to this, but I truly have to say I have lost all respect. I believe you should get off of that high horse you are sitting on, and appologise. If anyone wants to know what is wrong with "America", it is this kind of behaviour, and assumptions about people they clearly know nothing about. That was nothing but a ludicrious, hateful statement, and should not be tolerated.

Well what a surprise! Just a suggestion, use the "Spell Check" that management provides you just right of the "Preview" button. I take it you don't like CNN either? I didn't know there was a fan club in Canada for Sean Hannity and Lisa Ingraham. Why is it only right in American politics when one side dishes it out and then not confronted? When I came to this discussion board eight months ago the Pubs were using the Dems as verbal dart boards, and still yet about seventy percent of the posts are initiated by Pubs with some snide angle or remark. Myself though... I don't turn the other cheek. BTW welcome to the board.

As for foreign policy experience ;Alaska share borders with Canada and Putin's Russia . Clearly she already has as much ;if not more ,foreign policy experience as previous Governors who have become President like Carter ,Clintoon ,and GW Bush.

Alaska is the first line of defense in our missile interceptor defense system. The 49th Missile Defense Battalion of the Alaska National Guard is the unit that protects the entire nation from ballistic missile attacks. It's on permanent active duty, unlike other Guard units.
http://www.airdefenseartillery.com/online/Extracts/Missile%20Defense%20System%20Goes%20Operational.pd f
As governor of Alaska, Palin is briefed on highly classified military issues, homeland security, and counterterrorism. She's also the commander in chief of the Alaska State Defense Force (ASDF), a federally recognized militia incorporated into Homeland Security's counterterrorism plans.

Palin is privy to military and intelligence secrets that are vital to the entire country's defense. Given Alaska's proximity to Russia, she may have security clearances we don't even know about.

I will match her judgement on the issues with Biden (who's bloviating reminds me of Foghorn Leghorn).Even though his legislative career is full of so called foreign policy ;I question the judgement of someone who seriously contemplated and studied Iraq and in the end promoted a Lawrence of Arabia-like subdivision of Iraq ..

Bottom line ;true she will be a "heartbeat away from the Presidency" .But unless McCain drops in the 1st few months of his term ;she will have sufficent time for "on the job training " . The bigger risk is electing Obama who will walk into the highest office in the land with no practical experience.


Cliff Schecter: Sarah Palin lacks experience (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/29/sarahpalin.johnmccain)

"McCain's choice was governor Sarah Palin of Alaska, a former mayor of a town the size of the building where I grew up in New York. More recently, she has been performing her gubernatorial duties for an entire 1.5 years since her election in November of 2006. In other words, compared to her, when it comes to foreign policy experience, Obama is practically Napoleon.

Meanwhile, she is what you might call a bit slow on the uptake. When asked on CNBC's talkshow Kudlow & Co about some of the vice-presidential speculation surrounding her only a month ago, Palin's reaction really speaks for itself:

"But as for that VP talk all the time, I'll tell ya, I still can't answer that question until somebody answers for me, what is it exactly that the VP does every day?""

I thought this was interesting:

"Aides to Mr. McCain said they had a team on the ground in Alaska now to look more thoroughly into Ms. Palin's background. A Republican with ties to the campaign said the team assigned to vet Ms. Palin in Alaska had not arrived there until Thursday, a day before Mr. McCain stunned the political world with his vice-presidential choice. The campaign was still calling Republican operatives as late as Sunday night asking them to go to Alaska to deal with the unexpected candidacy of Ms. Palin.

At the least, Republicans close to the campaign said it was increasingly apparent that Ms. Palin had been selected as Mr. McCain's running mate with more haste than McCain advisers initially described." (09/01/08 NYT)

You didn't shoot from the hip? Come on. This is not my first rodeo. If you think CNN is questionable and an unreliable source for news than provide one that you think is better. I'm up for that debate.




Well what a surprise! Just a suggestion, use the "Spell Check" that management provides you just right of the "Preview" button. I take it you don't like CNN either?! I didn't know there was a fan club in Canada for Sean Hannity and Lisa Ingraham. Why is it only right in American politics when one side dishes it out and then not confronted?! When I came to this discussion board eight months ago the Pubs were using the Dems as verbal dart boards, and still yet about seventy percent of the posts are initiated by Pubs with some snide angle or remark. Myself though...I don't turn the other cheek. BTW welcome to the board.

I didn't arrive on this site yesterday, and I rarely find the need to use the "spell check", per your suggestion. I'm very grateful that you have pointed out that you know how to use it, and I apologiZe if my finger slipped down, and I made a spelling error.

I do in fact, watch CNN. My comment had nothing to do with the news channel, nor did it have to do with my diction, or gramatical errors. If there is such a "fan club" in Canada, which is also in "America", and isn't exclusive to the U.S. for Sean Hannity or Lisa Ingraham, I have yet to hear.

As a Canadian, I feel I should keep informed of not only Canadian politics, but also the running race in the United States, since it affects us also. So I do come and read the differing opinions, as well as try and keep myself informed through the news and other media.

I often do not comment, as I don't want to get into a political war of words, which is also the reason I read, but normally don't comment on the religious forums.

The reason I felt the need to comment on your post, is because your answer to Stringer was demeaning, and it was not necessary to make him out to be some sort of Redneck Trailer Trash! Stringer is a kind and caring family man, who has values and morals, and the arrogance in your statement to him was just mean spirited.

I am not willing to get into a political banter with anyone here, so I have my doubts I will be back. I enjoy reading others opinions, as it gives me insight not only into the way people think, but the kind of people they are.

Thank you for welcoming me to the board! BTW... is that "Bacon, Tomato... With..?

Forgive me if there are any spelling errors, I didn't use the spell check and preview. ;) :)

I think that if she were to become president, (far fetched but could happen) the whole wide world would not let her change it to where the women are not protected! You and I would not let that happen, would we? We get the chance to vote... right and the over turn of Roe vs. Wade... dont count on it!

The real problem with the abortion debate is that a decision was imposed on us by the Supreme Court rather than leaving it to the people to decide. Had we gone through the normal legislative process ,we would be close to where we are today with nowhere's near the acrimony .

EXCON it is silly to say that this election is a referendum on the Bush Administration . I have already noted the many times McCain has opposed President Bush .His pick of Palin is illustrative of the reform direction he would move the country and his party along.

I know "change " is a good campaign slogan for a candidate who's accomplishments are as thin as veneer... and of course it is true that the country is looking for a change of direction. However change for change sake is a ridiculous proposition. There is good and bad change and I argue that the direction Obama would take us is a path we should think twice about before departing .

There's an awful lot to chew on there. I sure would have dug into researching those "facts" to verify them before I had posted them.

Which facts do you want verified ? As you know I do a bit of homework before posting things .

The 49th Missile Defense Battalion (GMD) is an Alaska Army National Guard unit that is permanently on active duty at Fort Greely

Alaska Army National Guard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Army_National_Guard)

All Governors are briefed on the issues I mentioned. I will conceded that Biden as a chair of an important Senate Committee probably has a higher degree of clearance.. But ,as I said ,I question his judgement because of his over the top plan to divide Iraq .

What else should I fact check ?

I didn't arrive on this site yesterday, and I rarely find the need to use the "spell check", per your suggestion. I'm very grateful that you have pointed out that you know how to use it, and I apologiZe if my finger slipped down, and I made a spelling error.


Actually in your original rant that finger slipped down three times. An apology is not necessary, spelling is not my forte either.


I do in fact, watch CNN. My comment had nothing to do with the news channel, nor did it have to do with my diction, or gramatical errors. If there is such a "fan club" in Canada, which is also in "America", and isn't exclusive to the U.S., for Sean Hannity or Lisa Ingraham, I have yet to hear.


Let's be thankful for that. I watch all major broadcast news networks in the US, some less of the time than others.


As a Canadian, I feel I should keep informed of not only Canadian politics, but also the running race in the United States, since it affects us also. So I do come and read the differing opinions, as well as try and keep myself informed through the news and other media.

The "running race?" You mean the election! Yes. I agree. America has their nose in everybody's back yard so as for as I'm concerned the whole world is entitled to their opinions on the US election.


I often do not comment, as I don't want to get into a political war of words, which is also the reason I read, but normally don't comment on the religious forums.

The reason I felt the need to comment on your post, is because your answer to Stringer was demeaning, and it was not necessary to make him out to be some sort of Redneck Trailer Trash! Stringer is a kind and caring family man, who has values and morals, and the arrogance in your statement to him was just mean spirited.

I am not willing to get into a political banter with anyone here, so I have my doubts I will be back. I enjoy reading others opinions, as it gives me insight not only into the way people think, but the kind of people they are.


We all do. I'm sure Stringer (whatever his real name) is a family man of convictions and is just as substantive as the CNN network is compared to other networks.


Thankyou for welcoming me to the board! BTW.......is that "Bacon, Tomato....With....????


It's bacon for you. I don't usually eat pork. :)


Forgive me if there are any spelling errors, I didn't use the spell check and preview. ;) :)

Don't dwell on it. I didn't mean to give you a complex. :eek:

Wondergirl :

The Washington Times suggests that she was vetted just like any other candidate .
Washington Times - McCain camp's detailed review of Palin (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/01/mccain-camps-detailed-review-of-palin-1/)

Wondergirl :

The Washington Times suggests that she was vetted just like any other candidate .
Washington Times - McCain camp's detailed review of Palin (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/01/mccain-camps-detailed-review-of-palin-1/)



Sarah Palin's path to the Republican ticket started with her name on a list _ and a team of some 25 people poring through public records searching for trouble spots without her knowledge. Then came the 70-question survey and a nearly three-hour interview.That's good enough for the VP job.

Wondergirl





Abortion Statistics by U.S. State, Race, Age and Worldwide Statistics (http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm)


Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest;...

Other: 2.1%

Rape and Incest: Just 1% of All Abortions - New York Times (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=950DE1DC1039F930A25753C1A96F948260)





Estimated 40 million abortions since 1973


Even if a high 10 % estimate was due to rape incest or mother's health

That is 90% or 36 milllion lives "electively" killed.:eek:

Where is the outcry over this infanticide / genocide ? :confused: :(


McCain may have had lukewarm reception from social conservatives, many who would have sat out the election, but with a bonafide pro-lifer who walks the walk in Mrs Palin, I'm almost certain a greater percentage will get out and vote. With the polls running close, a few 100, 000 votes can and will make the difference.

Where is the outcry over this infanticide / genocide ?Because people don't view these situations the same way you do.

Inthebox- The larger problem is that to be 100% pro-life, than you remove any choice. It's for that reason alone that a portion of the public, myself being one of them, will not find resolve with the Pubs (or Dems on this issue). Personally I don't think Palin's daughter should have an abortion, not that they would from their own view. IMO the young girl needs to take responsibility for her actions along with the help and support of the mother VP candidate. Obama was quite correct in stating this is a family matter, but from even the most casual voter it's apparent that Sarah Palin was not aware of her daughter's extra curricular activity. That's not a sign of leadership or somebody that supposedly has an in charge type personality; a reformer. For heaven's sake she doesn't even know what the VP does on a day to day basis. Palin is in over her head thanks to the self-proclaimed maverick. Wow!

From the official statement:

Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. We're proud of Bristol's decision to have her baby.She had a decision to make? What decision was that?

NK- Good point. Perhaps before the next embarrassing moment occurs, Sarah should get to know her daughter since they reside at the same residence. Reality is that Sarah Palin needs to be at home taking care of children (she even has a child with down syndrome). She's a bit naïve and the last thing she needs to be doing is tagging along side the old white haired dude on the campaign trail.

Yes, that is a good point about the word decision being used...

Wondergirl :

The Washington Times suggests that she was vetted just like any other candidate .
Washington Times - McCain camp's detailed review of Palin (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/01/mccain-camps-detailed-review-of-palin-1/)
Operant word -- "suggests"

When was the last time again that a chosen VP candidate had to replaced ?
May this year again ? If I'm not mistaken it was the same party...

:D ;) :p :rolleyes: :D

·

1972 when candidate George McGovern had to replace Thomas Eagleton with Kennedy clan member Sergeant Shriver .
After that Nixon replaced sitting VP Spiro Agnew with Gerald Ford. Agnew got caught up in Maryland politics where bribes were involved while he was the Governor there . He plead no contest to criminal charges of tax evasion and money laundering . But Nixon wanted to replace him before then and would've if John Connally (a Democrat ) had accepted the offer.

Before that as I mentioned on another posting ,John C Calhoun resigned because the job did not have influence and power then.

Edit :

Eagleton was forced to leave the McGovern team after it was revealed that he had received shock treatment for various symptoms of mental and physical fatigue . He had evidently not revealed the treatments to McGovern ,or if he did ,McGovern did not think it sufficiently important to dump Eagleton. McGovern initially proclaimed he supported Eagleton 1000% .The public seemed to agree .77 percent of the respondents in a Time poll said "Eagleton's medical record would not affect their vote."
But the media pressure forced him to make the switch. MSM slimeball Jack Anderson wrote a vile false report that he had been arrested for drunk driving .A charge that Anderson later retracted after the damage was done.

I do no know if it was warranted but McGovern's dumping him was not a sign of strength .
Eagleton returned to the US Senate and served another 2 terms.

This video is interesting (CNN):

UYYiw_y2qDI

Rarely have I ever heard so many words used to say so little.

Campell Brown gave Tucker Bound nowhere to swim. Republican apologists are drowning and this is a reoccurring pattern ever since Sarah Palin became the pick. Greta Van Susteren on the Fox network backed Lynn Swann (Republican ex-pro athlete now politician) into a corner so bad last night that she starting laughing at him, and he even smiled knowing his goose was cooked.

Funny that the FOX network would have a show that isn't a mouthpiece for the Republicans eh ? Fox is biased and doesn't allow a slant on their network that isn't a Republican talking point... right ?

Swan will run for Guv. In PA. again and win next time .That is unless the goons working for Chucky Schumer don't dumpster dive looking for his SS# like they did to Michael Steele.

but from even the most casual voter it's apparent that Sarah Palin was not aware of her daughter's extra curricular activity. That's not a sign of leadership or somebody that supposedly has an in charge type personality; a reformer. For heaven's sake she doesn't even know what the VP does on a day to day basis. Palin is in over her head thanks to the self-proclaimed maverick. Wow!

That's a really large assumption, Bobby. I suppose the Palins should have had a ball and chain around Bristol's leg and fitted her with a chastity belt instead of having some kind of trust and faith in their daughter who is almost old enough to vote. Then you'd just complain that the Palins were way too overbearing and they should trust their daughter to make good decisions. Nice box you've put them in.

NK- Good point. Perhaps before the next embarrassing moment occurs, Sarah should get to know her daughter since they reside at the same residence. Reality is that Sarah Palin needs to be at home taking care of children (she even has a child with down syndrome). She's a bit naive and the last thing she needs to be doing is tagging along side the old white haired dude on the campaign trail.

LOL, so now women aren't able to multitask and function in a man's world, they should just stay home where they belong? You guys have just set the women's movement back 50 years. But then, some of us have know all along it was never about empowering women, it was about empowering liberal women. If you aren't like Susan Reimer (http://www.baltimoresun.com/features/bal-te.reimer01sep01%2C0%2C3951691.column) or Maureen Dowd (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/opinion/31dowd.html) you should go back to being a hockey mom and cooking and cleaning and waiting on your husband.

Yup barefoot in the kitchen that's where Dems want their women and as I stated on the other posting ;if they have 5 children they should be looking for a government handout.

yup barefoot in the kitchen that's where Dems want their women and as I stated on the other posting ;if they have 5 children they should be looking for a government handout.Spoken out of true ignorance.

Just my observation at their reaction to a successful working mom. Or is there a double standard and only liberal women have the choice ?

Hello fellows who used to think experience counted, but now don't:

I think she's a fine example of a working mom. I think she's great. She just isn't qualified to be commander in chief.

You certainly can't make the argument that she is, when you kept saying Obama isn't. Or, maybe you can. After all, she DID live near Russia. There you go.

excon

Ask any working mother how difficult it is to be mother and working and wife.

That alone would make most women more quaified to be president than most men. :p


Really, would we, the media etc. be asking these questions if she were male?

The Palin's have 5 children : good for them. A generation or 2 ago this was not unusual.

If your Judeo - Christian, you know children are a blessing. :)




As to Bristol being pregnant at 17, that is her family's business. Obama has enough class to say that was off limits. :)


I know that my adopted son was born to a 19yo mother who was not married at the time. Again, a blessing. :D

All you lefties are scared to death of Sarah Palin. I've seen several presidential campaigns, and NEVER has there been so much interest in the vp of any party. All left wing guns are aimed at Palin, even stooping to attacking her daughter! What a bunch of creeps! That's going to backfire, you know.

Hello fellows who used to think experience counted, but now don't:

I think she's a fine example of a working mom. I think she's great. She just isn't qualified to be commander in chief.

You certainly can't make the argument that she is, when you kept saying Obama isn't. Or, maybe you can. After all, she DID live near Russia. There ya go.

excon
Of course experience counts. How much executive experience does Obama or Biden have? The correct answer is NONE.
How much foreign policy experience does Obama have? NONE.

Maybe the Dems would be better off to reverse their ticket. It still wouldn't be good, but every little bit helps, right?

Ex,

I've never been against new blood, but I'd prefer someone that's actually accomplished something in the 2nd spot over someone that's accomplished nothing more than creating an image in the top spot.

Can we just write in "none of the above" and start over?

Can we just write in "none of the above" and start over?

No need - you can pick this guy: Welcome | Bob Barr for President of the United States (http://www.bobbarr2008.com/splash/?s0820)

No need - you can pick this guy: Welcome | Bob Barr for President of the United States (http://www.bobbarr2008.com/splash/?s0820)
Only if you want to help Obama.

Of course experienc counts. How much executive experience does Obama or Biden have? The correct answer is NONE.Hello Gal:

Then we agree. She isn't qualified. Of course, McCain has none either. All right, then. Our choice is between four people not qualified to be president... Ain't it just grand?

excon

Hello Gal:

Then we agree. She isn't qualified. Of course, McCain has none either. Alright, then. Our choice is between four people not qualified to be president.... Ain't it just grand?

excon
If you are going to quote me and then comment on my post, please be kind and use the full quote. Thanks.

yup barefoot in the kitchen that's where Dems want their women and as I stated on the other posting ;if they have 5 children they should be looking for a government handout.


:eek: Wow! Tom! Congrats! I'm not going to even touch that. That was an open mouth and insert foot moment. You better hope Democrat voting hard working moms are not paying attention to this post. You're a brave man. Good luck. :D

If I were the repubs strategists I wouldn't let Tucker boy near a camera again. Problem was he actually believed the BS he was spinning. Hahaha! They've really made a rod for their back with this choice haven't they!!

What I am so upset about is those who attack her for being a mother and saying she should be at home. Where is the women's right groups, where is NOW and some of the others jumping to her rescue because of this attack on her being a working mother.

Chuck, I've learned that according to Tom that they're in the kitchen barefoot considering that fifth child and looking for government handouts. You better hope Democrat voting hard working moms are not paying attention to this post. Good luck to you "padre."

As to Bristol being pregnant at 17, that is her family's business.
When Sarah Palin claims to be a Christian conservative and preaches abstinence-only as birth control, her unwed pregnant teen daughter makes Mom's beliefs look a little suspicious and leaves her wide open to comment and criticism.

What I am so upset about is those who attack her for being a mother and saying she should be at home. Where is the womens right groups, where is NOW and some of the others jumping to her rescue because of this attack on her being a working mother.
If I had five kids, one an infant with Down's syndrome, you can bet I would be at home.

I thought Pappy Palin was home with the kids? Usually one adult is all that's considered necessary -- no matter how many kids.

Didn't Mr. Palin quit his oil co. job when it presented a conflict of interest with Palin's job as governor?

If she can't convince / persuade her 17 year old daughter to fall in line with her beliefs then how is anyone else expected to take her seriously. C'mon...

The inexperience issue has just been completely taken out of the election.

If I had five kids, one an infant with Down's syndrome, you can bet I would be at home.

Joe Biden said his toughest decision was continuing his public career or raising his kids after his wife and a child died in a car accident . His choice was to do both. Why is it not Palins right to make a similar choice? I thought that is what the women's movement was all about ;the right for women to make a choice.

You better hope Democrat voting hard working moms are not paying attention to this post.
You better hope that the Democrat voting hard working moms are not paying attention to the cr*p coming from the MSM and the lib bloggers.

If I had five kids, one an infant with Down's syndrome, you can bet I would be at home.
Spot on!!

Or in other words : Sarah Palin: Only five abortions away from the presidency.

or in other words : Sarah Palin: Only five abortions away from the presidency.If that's what you believe then that's pretty twisted.

If that's what you believe then that's pretty twisted.
Another Spot on!!

90% of women who learn their baby has Downs syndrome abort their child. What is being said here is because she chose to have the baby then she should be a stay at home mom.... or am I missing something ?

Joe Biden got ovations when he spoke of his sacrifices in raising his children while still persuing a public career (he still commutes daily from Delaware to Washington) .But Palin is faulted here ;in the press and the liberal blogsphere for doing the very same thing .

I am the mother of a child with special needs. He is Mentally Retarded and Developmentally Delayed (MR/DD) and I have worked outside the home before he was born and went back to work shortly after I delivered. Am I a bad mother because I had to work to keep the bills paid or is she a bad mother because she chose to work in politics? Do you remember Hillary's reaction when it was suggested she should be a stay at home wife/mother?

As cred says... spot on!!

It's her right to work outside the home and attepmt a work/family balance, and really, I applaud her for it. It's a tough decision to make. But that doesn't mean everyone will agree with her decision - especially the social conservatives. Many people feel a woman's place is in the home with the children, especially when one has special needs and one is unwed and pregnant. My local news station interviewed several women the day she was announced as the VP and all of them said two things;

1. I won't vote for her because she's a woman - she's not a substitute for Hilary (or, if they didn't support Hilary to begin with; Who's going to vote for her if they were supporting Hilary? Their policies are different.)

2. It's tough to balance work and family, she should be at home with her children where she's needed.

Is it an antiquated POV, sure. But there are plenty of people out there who think she's making a mistake by not being with her children.

And yes, her daughter being pregnant is family business, but it speaks volumes that she was unable to impose her morals and values on to her own family. Yes, her daughter didn't abort, but she wouldn't be pregnant to begin with if she had her mother's values. Obama doesn't have to say anything about it - it says enough on its own and he looks like the golden boy by saying it's a "family issue".

Ultimately if you give a solid foundation for the children ,you hope and pray for the best. It is not an indictment on the parents necessarily when a child strays and I for one would not impose that "guilt " on parents out of hand.

But had the child been educated that there were other birth control options then a pregnancy may not have happened.

What makes you think that she wasn't taught about alternative birth control ? Birth control is taught throughout the US and still teen pregnancy is epidemic .

Ok then.

Hello again:

The Padre closed another thread because he believes that the pregnant daughter ISN'T fodder for political discussion. However, the candidate herself brings up her disabled daughter as fodder for the discussion...

In the legal world, we would say she opened the door to the discussion of her family since SHE brought it up first.

I DON'T think the status of her children IS an issue. I DO think being one way about it, IS an issue.

It should be noted, that when she was mayor, she tried to have books removed from the library and threatened to fire the librarian when she wouldn't do it. She thinks our invasion of Iraq was a message from God. She will outlaw ALL abortions, even pregnancies that resulted from rape. She DID support the bridge to nowhere BEFORE she was against it. She RAISED taxes on the citizens of Alaska. She is under investigation for abuse of power in her own state.

excon

Clearly the families have always been an issue. Like it or not. I don't think she used her Down syndrome son as a prop as you claim except to say she will be an advocate of special needs children. But both she and Biden pointed out the military careers of their children . Obama also displays his children when it is convenient .

If some children are open to scrutiny then all are .Despite the unwritten rule that Amy Carter and Chelsea Clinton were out of bounds ;it did not stop the press from reporting on any sip of booze the Bush twins took.

As for the bridge to nowhere I will note that there are 2 candidates left in the race who voted for it even though an alternative was proposed to fund repairs for a bridge over Interstate 10 on Louisiana's Lake Pontchartrain ruined by Hurricane Katrina. The 2 Senators who voted for the so called Bridge to Nowhere were Obama and Biden.

If she can't convince / persuade her 17 year old daughter to fall in line with her beliefs then how is anyone else expected to take her seriously. C'mon...

The inexperience issue has just been completely taken out of the election.

Skell, sorry buddy but this is silly. Having been a teenager once I know full well that they don't always do what's right even though they know what's right. Heck, it's the same way with adults. A kid making a bad decision doesn't mean mom's a failure. If that were the case EVERY parent is a failure.

But had the child been educated that there were other birth control options then a pregnancy may not have happened.

But then again it may have anyway. You guys are really reaching to find fault with the Palins' parenting skills. Good luck with that.

"It should be noted, that when she was mayor, she tried to have books removed from the library and threatened to fire the librarian when she wouldn't do it. She thinks our invasion of Iraq was a message from God. She will outlaw ALL abortions, even pregnancies that resulted from rape. She DID support the bridge to nowhere BEFORE she was against it. She RAISED taxes on the citizens of Alaska. She is under investigation for abuse of power in her own state."

Tried and failed with the books - hopefully she learned an important lesson.

Message from God? - Seems like everyone involved in the Middle East is getting messages from God, but nobody listens.

Outlaw ALL abortions - that might concern me if the VP had any power in changing it. It would take the Congress to manage that enormous feat and even the right leaning Chief Justice said that case was settled law.

Nearly every politician has endorsed Pork, of course it is necessary fudning if it is going to their state, so that is nothing new or exclusive to her.

What I have learned of the abuse of power charge to this point is without merit.

I still don't know who I am voting for, though. Wish Ron Paul was an option.

If some children are open to scrutiny then all are .Despite the unwritten rule that Amy Carter and Chelsea Clinton were out of bounds ;it did not stop the press from reporting on any sip of booze the Bush twins took.
War hero McCain at a Washington Republican fundraiser in 1998, when Chelsea was barely 18 years old and had not entered political or public life, placing her off-limits, told a joke that was reported in toto by only a few news outlets, the Phoenix New Times in Arizona and the National Journal. The joke suggested that Chelsea Clinton was ugly and Janet Reno and Hillary Clinton were lesbians. McCain later apologized to the Clintons.

“Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father.”
-John McCain, Republican Fundraiser, Washington D.C., 1998


Chelsea was just 17 years old when McCain said these cruel words… same age as Bristol.

Perhaps you missed the point where I said that like it or not ;the children of the candidates are open to scrutiny . They use them as part of their campaign when it is useful for them to do so. Obama doesn't want his children to be part of the process unless it is in a controlled TV interview or on stage during the convention. Candidates use their children in their own terms and the public demands to know every detail about the politicians family anyway .So why pretend that they are out of bounds ?

More wonderful conservative hypocrisy... priceless stuff:

Jon Stewart Annihilates Sarah Palin's Media Surrogates | Comedy Central Insider - The Comedy Blog for Comedy Fans (http://ccinsider.comedycentral.com/cc_insider/2008/09/jon-stewart-ann.html)

For my Canadian friends: The Daily Show with Jon Stewart : September 3, 2008 (http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart/full-episodes/september-3-2008/#clip89002)

More wonderful conservative hypocrisy...priceless stuff:

Jon Stewart Annihilates Sarah Palin's Media Surrogates | Comedy Central Insider - The Comedy Blog for Comedy Fans (http://ccinsider.comedycentral.com/cc_insider/2008/09/jon-stewart-ann.html)

For my Canadian friends: The Daily Show with Jon Stewart : September 3, 2008 (http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart/full-episodes/september-3-2008/#clip89002)

HAHA what idiots.

Am I the only one seeing the McCain/Palin banner under the OP? Funny.

Almost a week later;

Obama's "historic" acceptance speech is long forgotten. :p

People, the media, pundits, liberal, conservative etc. are all talking about Mrs Palin.

That is a success! :D

We are comparing the GOP's VP to the Dem's presidential candidate in terms of "experience" - this is a bad sign for the Dems. :confused: :eek:

Biden? Snooooooze...

I bet Hillary is fuming... ;)

Mrs. Palin has energized the GOP base that was the goal all along.

A word to the wise on the left

- I think people will look unfavorably upon unjustified personal attacks, and that will backfire on the attackers.




I don't think Mrs Palin should not be treated with kid gloves either and she should be asked legitimate tough questions. She should be able to speak and field questions without a teleprompter.

I think people will look unfavorably upon unjustified personal attacks, and that will backfire on the attackers.
Gosh, I wonder who is making unjustified attacks? Wednesday night speakers seemed to have had a field day doing that.

As for the "present" votes Obama made, it's a strategy thing, not an avoidance thing:

'Present' votes defended by Ill. lawmakers (http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=274863)

I am looking forward to the Palin/Biden debate. If he thinks he's fishing for a minnow, he will be shocked to find a "barracuda".

Personally, I think using the daughter to attack the mother is slimy!

Personally, I think using the daughter to attack the mother is slimy!
Who did that? What was said?

Most of your left wing media have all chimed in on the subject in one way or another.

Someone should tell NObama to stay away from the "lack of experience" attacks, talk about the pot calling the kettle black?

At least McCain will have to die before the lady with more experience than NObama would be President of the United States.

Most of your left wing media have all chimed in on the subject in one way or another.

Someone should tell NObama to stay away from the "lack of experience" attacks, talk about the pot calling the kettle black?

At least McCain will have to die before the lady with more experience than NObama would be President of the United States.
More experience being mayor of a hamlet? More experience being governor of a state that has more reindeer than people? Has about as many people as the state of Delaware?

Sorry for getting here so late. Been away for a while. But I'm BaaaaaaaK!!

Chou, Needkarma, laugh all you want about Palin. Palin has, in just 5 days, managed to do something that hasn't been done in 20 years. She has energized the Conservative base.

All these attacks are serving to only bring both Conservatives AND women to her defense. Not that she needs it. As we saw in last night's speech, she can hold her own against the Dem attack-dogs in the MSM.

She is going to wipe the floor with Biden. Biden may be a pit-bull, but so is Palin... even the Dem talking-heads are admitting that now. And Biden is a gaff-machine when speaking extemporaneously. And because of her greater experience, she can speak more easily and with greater knowledge about energy, government reform, pork-barrel spending and cost cutting. And she's just more exciting of a speaker than Biden. She's going to tear him a new one, and I, for one, can't wait to see it happen.

Like most of the Dem talking-heads, you guys keep talking about how Palin was a "small town mayor". You completely ignore that fact that she's the GOVERNOR of the state that produces about 1/3 of the energy of the entire country, and has had direct executive experience at managing those energy assest. Her state has a population of approximately 700,000 (a few more than the 1200 or so in the Obama campaign), a Gross State Product of $40 Billion, a per-capita GSP of $44,000 (5th in the nation) and total 2008 budget of $1,556,358,660 (a little more than the Obama campaign manages).

Good. Keep ignoring these facts. When she hands Biden his head, and then hands McCain the keys to the oval office, you'll know why it happened.

Elliot

More experience being mayor of a hamlet? More experience being governor of a state that has more reindeer than people? has about as many people as the state of Delaware?

Yes, would you care to post all the experience YOUR candidate has to compare with hers?

I'm waiting for the list.

Who did that? What was said?

1) The talk about her daughter's pregnancy and the fact that Palin is a hypocrite because her daughter is pregnant.

2) The calls for Palin's youngest daughter, Trig, the 4 month old baby to have maternity tests to determine if Palin is really the mother or if it is really the 17 year old daughter's baby.

3) The calls for paternity tests for trig to determine if Palin had an affair.

4) Statements that Palin shouldn't put her 17-year-old daughter through the pain and suffering of the public outcry of the election because she's pregnant.

5) Statements that Palin can't possibly be a good mother AND a VP at the same time.

Is that enough, Wondy?

Elliot

I get emails from the campaign and I wanted to share this one:

Did you watch Sarah Palin's speech last night? The speech told us a lot about her.

It told us that she can distort the facts and deliver mean-spirited zingers with the best of them. It told us that if Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter ever need a stand-in, she'd be a great pick.

It told us that she can be condescending and dismissive of the real work Barack Obama did helping real people on the South Side of Chicago. It told us that she can uphold the long Republican tradition of lying about Democratic tax cuts—even though Obama's plan would give Americans a bigger break than McCain's.

But the speech—written by one of President Bush's speechwriters—didn't tell us the truth about Sarah Palin's extremist positions. And the more that people know her far-right views, the less they support her. (There's a partial list below.)

One of the best ways to get the word out about Palin is to write a letter to the editor of your local paper. Today's a great day to write because this is very relevant—it just happened last night. Plus, our online tool makes it easy and has great tips. Please take a few minutes to write a quick letter to the editor now:

http://pol.moveon.org/lte?campaign_id=95&id=13709-9592781-NSD9P_x&t=3
Palin's speech and the reaction to it also made clear why McCain picked her. It wasn't a decision about who's most qualified to serve a heart-beat away from the presidency—it was a political decision about pleasing the far-right base of the Republican party.

Writing a letter to your local paper is a great way to make sure voters understand that. The opinion pages are the most widely-read pages of the newspaper. Write today, and your letter's a lot more likely to get published because it's so topical. It'll help sway the editorial board too.

Here are a bunch of points you might want to include in your letter:

Palin recently said that the war in Iraq is "God's task." She's even admitted she hasn't thought about the war much—just last year she was quoted saying, "I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq." 1, 2
Palin has actively sought the support of the fringe Alaska Independence Party. Six months ago, Palin told members of the group—who advocate for a vote on secession from the union—to "keep up the good work" and "wished the party luck on what she called its 'inspiring convention.'" 3
Palin wants to teach creationism in public schools. She hasn't made clear whether she thinks evolution is a fact.4
Palin doesn't believe that humans contribute to global warming. Speaking about climate change, she said, "I'm not one though who would attribute it to being manmade." 5
Palin has close ties to Big Oil. Her inauguration was even sponsored by BP. 6
Palin is extremely anti-choice. She doesn't even support abortion in the case of rape or incest. 7
Palin opposes comprehensive sex-ed in public schools. She's said she will only support abstinence-only approaches. 8
As mayor, Palin tried to ban books from the library. Palin asked the library how she might go about banning books because some had inappropriate language in them—shocking the librarian, Mary Ellen Baker. According to Time, "news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving "full support" to the mayor." 9
She DID support the Bridge to Nowhere (before she opposed it). Palin claimed that she said "thanks, but no thanks" to the infamous Bridge to Nowhere. But in 2006, Palin supported the project repeatedly, saying that Alaska should take advantage of earmarks "while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist." 10
The plain fact of the matter is that Sarah Palin did a bang-up job delivering a Karl Rove-style political attack speech last night. That makes her a skilled politician but it doesn't make her views any more palatable for voters. Americans don't really want another far-right, anti-science ideologue in the White House.


Please help get the word out about where Sarah Palin really stands on the issues.

http://pol.moveon.org/lte?campaign_id=95&id=13709-9592781-NSD9P_x&t=4
Thanks for all you do.

–Nita, Ilyse, Wes, Karin and the rest of the team

P.S. If you haven't seen it, check out the Daily Show clip on Palin. It's worth a watch
Sarah Palin Gender Card | The Daily Show | Comedy Central (http://www.moveon.org/r?r=24753&id=13709-9592781-NSD9P_x&t=5)

Sources
1. "Palin: Iraq war 'a task that is from God'," Associated Press, September 3, 2008
The Associated Press: Palin: Iraq war 'a task that is from God' (http://www.moveon.org/r?r=24701&id=13709-9592781-NSD9P_x&t=6)

2. "Palin wasn't 'really focused much' on the Iraq war," ThinkProgress, August 30, 2008
Think Progress » Palin wasn't 'really focused much' on the Iraq war, wanted 'an exit plan in place.' (http://www.moveon.org/r?r=24702&id=13709-9592781-NSD9P_x&t=7)

3. "The Sarah Palin Digest," ThinkProgress, September 4, 2008
Think Progress » The Sarah Palin Digest (http://thinkprogress.org/palin-digest/)

4. "McCain and Palin differ on issues," Associated Press, September 3, 2008
The Associated Press: McCain and Palin differ on issues (http://www.moveon.org/r?r=24703&id=13709-9592781-NSD9P_x&t=8)

5. Ibid

6. The Sarah Palin Digest," ThinkProgress, September 4, 2008
Think Progress » The Sarah Palin Digest (http://thinkprogress.org/palin-digest/)

7. Ibid

8. Ibid.

9. "Mayor Palin: A Rough Record," Time, September 2, 2008
Mayor Palin: A Rough Record - TIME (http://www.moveon.org/r?r=24704&id=13709-9592781-NSD9P_x&t=9)

10. The Sarah Palin Digest," ThinkProgress, September 4, 2008
Think Progress » The Sarah Palin Digest (http://thinkprogress.org/palin-digest/)

Rubbish Sgt.

Do you know, that when YOUR candidate allows the Bush tax cuts to expire, it will be the
LARGEST TAX INCREASE in the history of the United States?

And that happens without him having to raise a single tax.

Once his real increases start, our economy will really be as bad as he wants you to believe it is now, which again, is all rubbish.

Rubbish Sgt.

Do you know, that when YOUR candidate allows the Bush tax cuts to expire, it will be the
LARGEST TAX INCREASE in the history of the United States?

And that happens without him having to raise a single tax.

Once his real increases start, our economy will really be as bad as he wants you to believe it is now, which again, is all rubbish.


Reread, "rubbish" isn't an argument

I'm not here to argue, only to enlighten.

Yes, would you care to post all the experience YOUR candidate has to compare with hers?

I'm waiting for the list.
It has been stated many, many times. I'm sorry you missed it.

Here's his resume:

Barack Obama's Resume (http://obamasresume.org/)


Here's Palin's resume:

_Governor, state of Alaska: Dec 2006-Present.

_Chair, Oil and Gas Conservation Commission: 2003-2004.

_Mayor, Wasilla, Alaska (current population: 9,780): 1996-2002.

_City Council, Wasilla, Alaska: 1992-1996.

_University of Idaho; television sports and family fishing business.

_Miss Wasilla: 1984

OR

NAME: Sarah Heath Palin.

AGE-BIRTH DATE-LOCATION: 44; born Feb. 11, 1964; Sandpoint, Idaho.

EXPERIENCE: Alaska governor since December 2006; unsuccessful run for Republican nomination for lieutenant governor in 2002; chairwoman of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, 2003-2004; served two terms as Wasilla mayor and two terms on city council.

EDUCATION: Graduated University of Idaho, 1987, journalism.

FAMILY: Husband, Todd; five children.

BUSINESS: Worked as sports reporter for two Anchorage television stations; owned with her husband a snowmobile, watercraft, ATV business from 1994-97. Husband is a North Slope oil field worker.

Is that enough, Wondy?
Ah, the proverbial put-down. And I thought we were friends.

Ah, the proverbial put-down. And I thought we were friends.

I didn't realize the words "Isn't that enough" were a put-down. I apologize.

(Or was it calling you "Wondy"?)

Elliot

I didn't realize the words "Isn't that enough" were a put-down. I apologize.

(Or was it calling you "Wondy"?)

Elliot

The latter.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe the government
Will do a better job of spending the money I earn than I
Would.

I'm voting Democrat because freedom of speech is fine
As long as nobody is offended by it.

I'm voting Democrat because when we pull out of Iraq I
Trust that the bad guys will stop what they're doing
Because they now think we're good people.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe that people who
Can't tell us if it will rain on Friday CAN tell us that
The polar ice caps will melt away in ten years if I
Don't start driving a Prius.

I'm voting Democrat because I'm not concerned about
The slaughter of millions of babies so long as we keep all
Death row inmates alive.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe that business
Should not be allowed to make profits for themselves. They
Need to break even and give the rest away to the government
For redistribution as THEY see fit.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe three or four
Pointy headed elitist liberals need to rewrite the
Constitution every few days to suit some fringe kooks who
Would NEVER get their agendas past the voters.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe that when the
Terrorists don't have to hide from us over there, when
They come over here I don't want to have any guns in the
House to fight them off with.

I'm voting Democrat because I love the fact that I can
Now marry whatever I want. I've decided to marry my
Horse.

I'm voting Democrat because I believe oil
Companies' profits of 4% on a gallon of gas are obscene
But the government taxing the same gallon of gas at 15%
Isn't.

Makes you wonder why anyone would EVER vote Republican, now
Doesn't it?

I'm voting Democrat because I love the fact that I can
now marry whatever I want. I've decided to marry my
horse. Hello let:

I think you should marry your horse. Make sure you get the right end.

excon

Wait till the story of Palin's extramarital affair breaks in a few days, folks.

She's nothing but a wilderness yokel, a perfectly fine woman deluded by fundamentalist religion so much so that she knew nothing what is going on in the world until a couple of days ago per her own words! She recently attended a service at her fundamentalist church and the guest speaker was arepresentative from Jews for Jesus who claimed that Israel deserves to be **destroyed** because Jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah. That kind of fundamentalist nonsense and hate.

She is a dufus... an insult to American voters... a gimmick.

The really sad thing is that Ron Paul embraces the social concerns that the Democrats feel are important and supports the fiscal concerns that conservatives want but everyone considers him a kook.

On top of that, many of his supporters ARE kooks. I voted for him in the primary because he proved to me that he understands what the Constitution is, what it does and that the government exists to protect the rights of individuals, not to give people stuff or push lucrative contracts over to their friends.

Why do the politicians that "get it" get ignored?

Wait till the story of Palin's extramarital affair breaks in a few days, folks. I understand that several hundred of journalists are currently busy checking her background.
Yes an affair would make this juicier and juicier!!

:>)

.

Her life is like a soap opera... Susan Lucci should be playing her on some afternoon soap... a nudnik with no knowledge of the world pulled from wilderness obscurity to be the VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

She wows the simpleton Republicans who have no integrity, they are totally fueled by hate of minorities and spurred on by hatemongers like Rush, and now Palin!

But, of course, this soap opera will not end happily. McCain underestimated the intelligence of the American women... they know an 'empty dress' when they see one! They have had bosses like her, folks. :)

Women want health care, good jobs, help for the middle class, an end to endless war and endless national debt... EVERYTHING THAT OBAMA AND JOE ARE GOING TO DELIVER FOR THEM.

Wondergirl,

Let's go through Obama's resume.

I'm not going to comment on his education, other than to say that a Columbia University BA and Harvard Law degree seem to contrast somewhat with the "growing up a poor kid with a single mom" image he tries to give off. But those are excellent schools. Wish I could have afforded those tuitions.

Let's talk about his work experience:


Organizing and other work experience (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/)


1983-1984 Writer/Researcher for Business International Corporation. Helped companies understand overseas markets in the “Financing Foreign Operations” service and wrote for the “Business International Money Report”


So he was a writer.




1984-1985 Community Organizer for New York Public Interest Research Group (PIRG), promoting personal, community, and government reform at City College in Harlem.


He was a Community organizer, whatever that means. Just so you know, Obama himself has said that he wasn't a very good "community organizer" and that most of the projects he worked on have failed... either they failed to accomplish their stated goals or they ran out of money. Not exactly the kind of executive leadership I want in the White House.




1985-1988 Director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland on Chicago's South Side. While director grew the DCP staff from 1 to 13 and their budget from $70,000 to $400,000.


Ah... here we have some executive experience. He managed a budget of $400,000 and a staff of 13 people. They seem like a fine organization. Here is there website. Developing Communities Project (DCP) - Welcome (http://www.dcpincorp.org/index.html)

On the other hand, I have been involved with community outreach organizations that are much larger than this one... some that are multi-state organizations, and one that is multi-national. I don't think that this qualifies me to be President of the United States.




1992 Led Chicago's Project Vote! Push. This effort resulted in a record number of voter registrations, over 600,000 in Chicago.

I'm not particularly impressed by this as a form of "executive experience" either. I did voter registration stuff when I was in College too. He gave a bunch of college kids with too much time on their hands a bunch of pamphlets and registration forms and had them sit on street corners and ask other college kids to register. This is kids stuff, and isn't worth mentioning as "experience".


Teaching (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/)


1993-2004 Visiting Law and Government Fellow, then Senior Lecturer, in Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago Law School. Taught courses on the due process and equal protection areas of constitutional law, on voting rights, and on racism and law. Helped develop a casebook on voting rights.



In point of fact, one of his colleagues at UC has said that Obama was not a "Senior Lecturer" but rather an adjunct professor who occaisionally gave a lecture, but who spent most of his time writing articles for magazines. He neither practiced nor taught any serious Constitutional Law during his stay at UC. He "stretched" this part of his resume and made it bigger than it really was. At least according to his colleague.


Law Practice (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/)


1993-2002 Worked as an associate attorney with Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland. Represented non-profits and private individuals in urban development projects, voting rights cases, and wrongful firings. Filed major suit that forced the state of Illinois to enforce the Motor Voter Law and successfully argued a wrongful firing case before the U.S. 7th Circuit Court of Appeals.



Again, according to his colleague, this is an exageration of what he actually did. But even according to his own description, he spent most of his time as essentially writing articles and filing wrongful dismissal suits. He was a labor lawyer on a very small scale. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't make it out to be more than it is.


Illinois Senate 1996-2004 (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/)


chairman, Health and Human Services Committee
Spearheaded a successful bipartisan effort in Illinois to pass the broadest ethics-reform legislation by any state in 25 years, and also gained bipartisan support for his successful bills reforming death penalty interrogations and ending racial profiling by police. Worked with the Republican-led effort to reform welfare
Also sponsored successful bills expanding tax credits and child-care subsidies for low-income working families, protecting overtime pay for workers, expanding health care for children, and providing job skills training for juveniles

Sponsored Bill Statistics (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/)


Number of sponsored bills: 65
Number of sponsored bills passed: 0

Number of co-sponsored bills 364
Number of co-sponsored bills passed: 5


I think that the statistics say it all. He spent 8 years in the Il. State Senate, sponsored almost nothing and passed even less. That's not much of a record to run on.

The website you gave also gives his voting history, taken from opencongress.org. Going to the website itself, I have determined that of 638 roll call votes in Congress since January 8, 2007, Obama abstained 290 times or 45% of the time. That means that close to half the time he either wasn't present in Congress, or he didn't have the guts to take a stance on the issue one way or the other. I don't want someone in Congress who either won't be present or who won't take a stance.

On the face of it, I would argue that Obama doesn't exactly show much leadership in his resume, and certainly not the level of leadership that qualifies him for President.

Now, can you tell me anything that Obama has accomplished that qualifies him for the highest office of the land?

Now, can you tell me anything that Obama has accomplished that qualifies him for the highest office of the land?
Now, please comment on Palin's resume.

You'll make yourself sick again, Elliot... Did you "forget" he serves in the US Senate??

Intelligence and rationality and a calm disposiiton count for a lot in a President; that's Obama. We all have seen what little intelligence and LACK OF RATIONALITY can do to a country in 8 years... that Bush Presidency was a DISASTER.


Gee, it's just like old times... Grrrrrrrr

How long did Obama serve in the US Senate before beginning his campaign for President?

How long did Obama serve in the US Senate before beginning his campaign for President?
I had posted his resume on the previous page. Here's the U.S. Senate entry:

United States Senate 2004-present

* Member, Senate Foreign Relations Committee
* Chairman, Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Affairs
* Member, Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions
* Member, Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
* Member, Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs
* Shares responsibility for the bipartisan Coburn-Obama Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act of 2006, requiring full online disclosure of all entities receiving federal funds, and the bipartisan Lugar-Obama Cooperative Proliferation Detection, Interdiction Assistance, and Conventional Threat Reduction Act of 2006, deepening non-proliferation work with WMD and including surface-to-air missiles, land mines, and other weapons that may be used by terrorists.

Thanks Wondergirl, I was aware of his resume, but that doesn't quite answer my question.

How long did Obama serve in the US Senate before beginning his campaign for President?

Thanks Wondergirl, I was aware of his resume, but that doesn't quite answer my question.
"2004-Present" doesn't answer your question? What is your question?

How long had he served before he started campaigning for President. I have heard rumors that he basically showed up, put his stuff away and started working the party big wigs for the presidential nod. There is so much snark out there it is tough to know what is what.

Hello Em:

It's true. He HAS been campaigning for four years... Ok, McCain's been campaigning for 16 years. Yer not thinking being a senator is a full time position, are you?? Let me disabuse you of that notion.

I don't think the fact that either of them wants to be president should be held against them.

excon

Anyone know how many times McCain has abstained from voting or missed voting on Senate bills?

How long had he served before he started campaigning for President. I have heard rumors that he basically showed up, put his stuff away and started working the party big wigs for the presidential nod. There is so much snark out there it is tough to know what is what.
Psssssst. Tell excon Obama has NOT been campaigning for four years.

Sen. Durbin Backs Barack Obama for President
Tuesday, May 30, 2006 11:24 a.m. EDT

Barack Obama is getting a push toward a presidential run from fellow Democratic senator from Illinois, Durbin.

Speaking on "Fox News Sunday," Durbin said he's told Obama he should look "long and hard" at the possibility of running. The 44-year-old Obama has already said he won't run for president in 2008.

But Durbin says Obama brings something special to politics. He says Obama connects better with people than anyone he's ever seen. And Durbin adds that he thinks Obama has the potential to unite people from both Democratic and Republican regions of the country.

And, yes, Durbin also says he would endorse an Obama candidacy should he decide to run.

**********

SPRINGFIELD, Ill. Feb. 10, 2007 -- Illinois Sen. Barack Obama formally opened his campaign for president here Saturday, invoking memories of Abraham Lincoln and challenging a new generation to help him transform the nation.

Standing on the grounds of the Old State Capitol, where Lincoln delivered his famous "House Divided" speech against slavery in 1858, the Democratic first-term senator began a bid for the White House that barely seemed possible just a few months ago but could make him the first black president. "I recognize there is a certain presumptuousness -- a certain audacity -- to this announcement," he said. "I know I haven't spent a lot of time learning the ways of Washington. But I've been there long enough to know that the ways of Washington must change."

Her life is like a soap opera ...//...Women want health care, good jobs, help for the middle class, an end to endless war and endless national debt.....EVERYTHING THAT OBAMA AND JOE ARE GOING TO DELIVER FOR THEM.
I hope for everyone that you will be right on that !

:)

Anyone know how many times McCain has abstained from voting or missed voting on Senate bills?
Call or visit your public library. There is something called the Congressional Quarterly, in print or online (it is by subscription, I think). Here's information about it with sample pages:

CQ | Congressional News, Bill Tracking, Transcripts, Government Documents and more (http://corporate.cq.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=12)

The stats you want are in that.

Thanks, Wondergirl.

Obama made his speech in the same place as the renown Republican, Abe Lincoln? That's amusing.

Thanks, Wondergirl.

Obama made his speech in the same place as the renown Republican, Abe Lincoln? That's amusing.
You're welcome. The Old State Capitol is in Springfield, Illinois, the seat of state government. Lincoln is known to have brought people and even political parties together. If you get a chance, read this book (the following information is from the author's web site) --

Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln

Acclaimed historian Doris Kearns Goodwin illuminates Lincoln's political genius in this highly original work, as the one-term congressman and prairie lawyer rises from obscurity to prevail over three gifted rivals of national reputation to become president.

This brilliant multiple biography and New York Times bestseller is centered on Lincoln's mastery of men and how it shaped the most significant presidency in the nation's history.

Found some good stuff. McCain has missed/abstained 64% of the time this Congressional period versus 45% by Obama.

McCain votes with the party 88.3% of the time and Obama votes with his party 96%.

Found it here: Members of Congress: Senate | Congress votes database | washingtonpost.com (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/members/)

Found some good stuff. McCain has missed/abstained 64% of the time this Congressional period versus 45% by Obama.

McCain votes with the party 88.3% of the time and Obama votes with his party 96%.

Found it here: Members of Congress: Senate | Congress votes database | washingtonpost.com (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/members/)
Emland, I am just learning here, so can you tell me what this means please?

Means McCain hasn't shown up for work for 64% of the votes or didn't want to make a decision. Ditto for Obama.

I found the party line voting percentage interesting since Obama said during the DNC that McCain votes with Bush 94% of the time.

Thanks!;)

What the Obama campaign mentioned, for example during the Democrat convention, is that McCain voted with Dubya ninety percent of the time which is an average of several years. That ninety-four percent figure was either for the past year or up until Sept of this year. I've posted those stats in another thread. According to the stats above in Emlands post, McCain votes with his party eighty-eight percent, which means he actually votes more with Dubya, than the average. In other words, McCain is closer to Dubya (W), than X,Y, and Z.

Now, please comment on Palin's resume.
I already did.

Education-
University of Idaho - BS in Communication/Journalism, minor in Poly Sci, class of 1987.

Career & Businesses-
In 1988, she worked as a sports reporter for KTUU-TV in Anchorage, Alaska. She also helped in her husband’s family commercial fishing business.
In 2004, she was a part owner of a car wash business. That makes her both a private sector employee and a small business owner.

Public Office -
Two 3-year terms as member of the Wassila, Ak city council (1992 & 1995).

She won the office of Mayor of Wassila from 3-time encumbent in 1996 on a platform of reducing wasteful spending. She served two terms as mayor.

In 2003, she was appointed to chair the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, where she also served as ethics supervisor. In 2004 she resigned over what she described as the "lack of ethics" of fellow Republican members. She filed complaints that caused the resignations of two Republican members of the Commission and the payment of a fine by one of them.

In 2006, she ran against Gov. Murrowski and won the primary. Then, despite spending less than her Democratic opponent, she won the election on a "clean government" platform. At the age of 42, she was both the youngest and the first female governor in AK history. As governor, she cut state spending by roughly $237 million through the use of her line-item veto powers. She sold an unnecessary private jet bought by the prior administration on e-bay for $2.1 million, and she turned down federal money for the "bridge to nowhere".

(Compare that to Obama who never met a government perk he didn't accept.)

In short, Palin has both small-business and executive leadership experience that Obama does not. She has budget-cutting experience than Obama does not. She has ethics experience that Obama does not. She has reform experience that Obama does not. And she has a history of bucking her own party that Obama does not.

Elliot

Guys . To be real ,please subtract the votes like the unanamous votes congratulating the Giants for winning the SuperBowl. This bs about percentage of votes he has voted with President Bush is the most deceiving stat I've ever seen.

Here is the bottom line: on many occasions McCain has crossed party lines and voted with the Democrats(much to my chagrin) . I'd like to see one instance when Obama has not voted in lock step with his party.

I've been back on that votes database I provided before and have found that the Republican senators average in the high 80s percentage wise in voting with the GOP.

Their Democratic counterparts vote in the mid to high 90 percent with Mrs. Clinton having the highest score I have found so far at 97.2%.

So, does that mean that the Senate Republicans are more independent of their party or that they don't have faith in the legislation being presented?

Keep in mind many of the Senate votes are unanimous for naming bridges and congratulating the winner of the National Little Leauge, etc so it is important to look at the key legislation.

Some of the Senators have a break down of their key votes. I backed out the unanimous and abstained votes and got a 78% party line vote for McCain and 91% for Obama.

I know a lot of people have been following the conventions closely, but I haven't wasted a minute on it. I think it is more important to find out what people have done while in public service rather than what they say.

I'm not happy that McCain has missed so many votes and I don't agree with many of the votes Obama has made. So I am still stuck with a decision to make.

Which votes were they ? Again that is important . This year a certain leeway has to be given to those who were campaigning . The question really is ;which important votes were they absent for ? Also check out how often Obama has convened his important Foreign Relations sub-commitee on European Affairs since he was named chairman .As you know European issues have been in the forefront of the news lately .Also since NATO is involved in Afghanistan ;that also falls under his oversight.

There is a lot of information to wade through. I'm keeping an informal scorecard on a stenopad with the general overview first. Next, I'm going to find the votes that are important to me and check that out. A lot of good info can be found at ontheissues.org as well.

And here Em: THOMAS (Library of Congress) (http://thomas.loc.gov/)

Emland great site(onthe issues.org) . I use it regularly . Some trivia... Jesse Gordon used to be a Politics Board expert in the old Askme site.

Sorry for getting here so late. Been away for a while. But I'm BaaaaaaaK!!!!!

Welcome back, Elliot... 'bout time. :D

Yer not thinking being a senator is a full time position, are you??

Bingo . The only time the country is truly safe is when Congress is on break. At least they can do no harm that way.

Wait till the story of Palin's extramarital affair breaks in a few days, folks.


Nice slander . Let me guess .Info from the Evita supporting owner of the National Enquirer... or more toilet paper innuendo and distortions by the Obama supporting Us Magazine?? No ;I was right the 1st time.

Like I said in another posting : Let the Borking begin.

Organizing and other work experience (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/)

1983-1984 Writer/Researcher for Business International Corporation. Helped companies understand overseas markets in the “Financing Foreign Operations” service and wrote for the “Business International Money Report”I need some research... I know he was editor of the Harvard Law Review and he claims to be a professor of law. But as far as I can tell he is not published except for his ghost written bios(both of whch I have now completed reading ). Can someone show me what legal essay in the Law review ,or other legal brief /Amicus curiae.. any legal scholarly writing he has published??


More experience being mayor of a hamlet? More experience being governor of a state that has more reindeer than people? Has about as many people as the state of Delaware?

And ONE of the Senators from Delaware is Joe Biden.

The difference being that Palin runs the state of Alaska and Biden is a lifer in the Senate ;getting his automatic reelection based on how much pork his son the lobbyist can deliver to the state. He is one of 100 Senators no matter how many important commitees he sits in .

The question between the 2 of them is judgement ,and clearly the sub-divison of Iraq that Biden floated throughout his campaign was the single dumbest policy proposal in the entire conflict.He has shown time and time again that he is just wrong on the issues of the day. He even voted against the 1st Gulf war .

Good one, NK. Thanks.

Wow, newsflash... "Senator usually votes along party lines." You pick the Senator...

It appears BDS is being overtaken by PDS - Palin Derangement Syndrome (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NjY4ODg3ZjA2ZDQwZjI3NTM1MGY3ZGE0YmM3NmJmN2Y=) - as the latest trend in mental disorders.

Potomac Watch - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122057381593001741.html?mod=todays_columnists)



Enter Mrs. Palin. The former mayor of Wasilla had been appointed by Mr. Murkowski in 2003 to the state oil and gas regulatory agency. She'd had the temerity to blow the whistle on fellow GOP Commissioner Randy Ruedrich for refusing to disclose energy dealings. Mr. Murkowski and GOP Attorney General Gregg Renkes closed ranks around Mr. Ruedrich—who also chaired the state GOP. Mrs. Palin resigned. Having thus offended the entire old boy network, she challenged the governor for his seat.

Mrs. Palin ran against the secret deal, and vowed to put the pipeline back out for competitive, transparent, bidding. She railed against cozy politics. Mr. Murkowski ran on his unpopular pipeline deal. The oil industry warned the state would never get its project without his leadership. Mrs. Palin walloped him in the primary and won office in late 2006. Around this time, news broke of a federal probe that would show oil executives had bribed lawmakers to support the Murkowski tax changes




She took on her own party / GOP. Against the guy who first appointed her.

She fought against coruption - and won



What Palin Really Did To the Oil Industry - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122057543526201877.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries)



As a new governor in 2007, Mrs. Palin stepped in to address the fiscal crisis and restore accountability. Working with Democrats and Republicans alike, she chose a 25% profits tax. But in lean years the state reverts to a 10% gross revenue tax on legacy fields that do not require massive continuing inputs of new capital.

Relative to the old system, Mrs. Palin's plan -- called "Alaska's Clear and Equitable Share" (ACES) -- improves incentives for developing new resources. It ensures the state does well in boom times -- as it is doing now -- when oil prices are high. But it also hedges against low prices in the future by ensuring that oil companies exposed to commodity price swings don't face a crushing tax burden when commodity prices fall.



A direct share in oil profits for every citizen is the ultimate incentive for more drilling.



She did this for her state's citizens , imagine how helpful she would be to the country's citizens! :D

imagine how helpful she would be to the country's citizens! :D
Just be glad you aren't a bear or a wolf, but, in any case, watch out for low-flying Cessnas.

I'm glad I live in a country where a working mother of 5, can prove herself to the citizens she represents, fight against politically self interested establishment, believes in protecting the unborn, and be a contender against the -----


Typical politician that have law degree[s], or been in congress for 36 years, or have the MSM fawning over him as he visits Iraq for the first time in > 2 years, or have connections with known terrorists, or those who propose "solutions" that rely on increasing taxes and expanding government power.


Yes, I'm glad that to be a citizen in a country that respects a person's achievements based on merit. Not on gender or race.

I'm glad I live in a country where a working mother of 5, can prove herself to the citizens she represents, fight against politically self interested establishment, believes in protecting the unborn, and be a contender against the -----


typical politician that have law degree[s], or been in congress for 36 years, or have the MSM fawning over him as he visits Iraq for the first time in > 2 years, or have connections with known terrorists, or those who propose "solutions" that rely on increasing taxes and expanding government power.


Yes, I'm glad that to be a citizen in a country that respects a person's achievements based on merit. Not on gender or race.


Not saying raising a family isn't hard, but my dad and step mom raised 9 kids, and own a successful bussines, have fought against unfairness and such, butthat doesn't mean they would be good enough for VP. In fact if they were the VP, they would probably cause mass chaos.

Its not like I'm a parent, so maybe I'm just underthinking it, but being a parent doesn't means you know how to deal with foreign issues, war, inflation, etc...

She is not only a parent.

She was a mayor, and is Govenor. :)

Look at it this way, Cheney and Rumsfeld have a tremendous amount of "experience,"
But look where that has gotten this country. :mad:

She is true change, someone outside the Washington beltway, outside the political classess who has accomplishments that a 36 year senator can't hold a candle to.

Biden Was Wrong On the Cold War - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122049148440397625.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)

Believe me, I'm not one of those "experience required" people. All of our bad presidents have had tons of experience, but it just comes down to their decisions. I don't know much about her so I don't argue against her yet..

She definitely seems to be a talented person, so we'll see what happens

Yes, I'm glad that to be a citizen in a country that respects a person's achievements based on merit. Not on gender or race.
You must be a white male.

She was a mayor, and is Govenor.
New bumper sticker:

Jesus was a Community Activist. Pontius Pilot was a Governor.

And do you think Jesus would've threw his hat in the ring ? As I recall he said “My kingdom is not of this world".

Supporters of Zeus Obama often wonder why he gets ridiculed as being "the Messiah " even as they perpetrate that myth themselves.

John Judis at New Republic points out that Obama told his community organizing mentor that he quit the job because the pay was too low . Obama told Kellman that he feared ending up destitute and unhappy like his dad. ‘He wanted to marry and have children, and to have a stable income’

Creation Myth (http://tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=2e0a7836-b897-4155-864c-25e791ff0f50)
But he also admitted that the role of community organizer was an ineffective role .“you either had to be an elected official or be influential with elected officials.”Obama believed that politicians, not community organizers made history.


Obama was having doubts about community organizing. By the early fall of 1987–a little more than two years after he had come to Chicago — Obama had decided to apply to Harvard Law School. At some point thereafter, he began to explain his decision to friends and colleagues. The most revealing of these discussions are not reported in Dreams from My Father.
It was not just the walk he took with Kellman through Harvard’s campus. Obama also talked to Kruglik about his reasons for leaving Chicago. In their conversations, he described politics–and winning political office–as the most important step toward achieving change. And, instead of seeing [Mayor] Harold Washington as buffeted by forces beyond his control, he now aspired to be Washington.

To the ambitious Obama community organizing didn’t change history; power and leaders with charisma changed history.

Before he was done, Obama had rejected the guiding principles of community organizing: the elevation of self-interest over moral vision; the disdain for charismatic leaders and their movements; and the suspicion of politics itself.

Obama can deny it all he wants to ;but the principal reason he left "community organizing " was because it was a waste of time.

Originally Posted by inthebox
Yes, I'm glad that to be a citizen in a country that respects a person's achievements based on merit. Not on gender or race.
You must be a white male.

Hahahaha! This is one of the funniest things I have read here in ages. :)

Obama can deny it all he wants to ;but the principal reason he left "community organizing " was because it was a waste of time.
Ummm, he's still doing it.

You must be a white male.


Hahahaha! This is one of the funniest things I have read here in ages.
So? Are you?

You must be a white male.


Wondergirl, I believe you will find the answer to the above in this post that I am attaching.


Jul 10, 2008, 04:27 AM #35 Report Inappropriate Post
inthebox
Senior Member



Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 630
Gringo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Quote:
Gringo (feminine, gringa) is a term in the Spanish and Portuguese languages used in some countries of Latin America to refer to white foreigners from different cultures, particularly English-speakers, and especially from the United States, although it can also refer to people from Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, and other countries, including in some cases other countries of Latin America itself.[1][2][3]




I have lived in multiple places east of the Mississippi River never been called a gringo by a person of Hispanic origin... could be because I'm not Caucasian. I wonder if blacks get called gringo?

You must be a white male.


What would make you think that?

What would make you think that?
Your comment that included the phrase "respects a person's achievements based on merit. Not on gender or race" flies in the face of reality. I know of so many instances where honest and skillful work hasn't gotten excellent workers anywhere.

Is that not the ideal?

To judge a person "by the content of their character" [ MLK ]

Why wallow in the ideology of victimitology?

[BTW I'm male but not white]

My parents, and I found out quickly in elementary school, taught me that you have to be better than average to prove yourself. They did not teach me that the majority population [ US gov ] owes me anything.



"respects a person's achievements based on merit. Not on gender or race" flies in the face of reality.



This kind of reality?







Acceptance of Blacks, Latinos to UC Plunges - Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/1998/apr/01/news/mn-34940)
...
Because African American and Latino high school students on average have lower scores, Berkeley’s tougher standards meant fewer of them were admitted.

Second, UC Berkeley last year relied more heavily on affirmative action to boost its numbers of African American and Latino students, while UCLA had for years incorporated race and ethnicity in a more elaborate formula that gave extra consideration for underprivileged backgrounds.

...

Admissions officials said they have no explanation why whites and Asians are more inclined to opt out of stating their race.

You'll make yourself sick again, Elliot... Did you "forget" he serves in the US Senate??
No, I just wish I could.

In the Senate, he has accomplished NOTHING, as his own resume above demonstrates. But because he speaks well, the Dems have somehow decided that he's the Messiah.

Exactly what part of Obama's senate career qualifies him to be President, Chou? Can you name anything he has accomplished? I have named several things that Palin has accomplished. Can you name a single thing Obama has accomplished?

Sorry, but sitting in the Senate, failing to get anything you propose enacted, failing to vote on 45% of the issues that come up, failing to accomplish ANYTHING, and then not even completing your first term in the Senate before announcing your presidential candidacy does NOT qualify you to be president. Can you point to any accomplishment of Obama in the Senate... or for that matter in the Il State Senate? You're a Chicago girl, if I remember correctly. What has Obama accomplished for the State of Il in his State Senate career that qualifies him for the office of President?


Intelligence and rationality and a calm disposiiton count for a lot in a President; that's Obama.
Calm disposition? Here are a few statements from Obama that illustrate his "calm disposition".

"I cannot swallow whole the view of Lincoln as the Great Emancipator." (So let's rewrite 143 years of history.)

"I've got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby." (Since when is a baby a punishment? I thought that babies were a blessing.)

"If the people cannot trust their government to do the job for which it exists - to protect them and to promote their common welfare - all else is lost." (Gee, and I thought that promoting the welfare of the people was the job of individuals, and that the job of the government was simply to protect their right to do so. I had no idea that the government's job was to make me happy.)

"It's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." (Yeah. Very calm disposition.)

"Over the last 15 months, we've traveled to every corner of the United States. I've now been in 57 states? I think one left to go." (Need I say more.)

"We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times... and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK." (Why not? We drilled for the oil, we built the SUVs, we created the wealth, and we created the technology that uses the resources. Why shouldn't we utilize what WE created?)

"We need somebody who's got the heart, the empathy, to recognize what it's like to be a young teenage mom, the empathy to understand what it's like to be poor or African-American or gay or disabled or old - and that's the criterion by which I'll be selecting my judges." (Unless that teenage mom is named Bristol Palin. And I thought that the job of judges were to enterpret the law, not to be 'compasionate'. Why bother with judges that have laws degrees if compasion is the criterion by which judges should be selected.)

"When we think of the major threats to our national security, the first to come to mind are nuclear proliferation, rogue states and global terrorism. But another kind of threat lurks beyond our shores, one from nature, not humans - an avian flu pandemic." (Well, it's nice to know that this man with 'calm disposition' has his priorities straight.)

"Why can't I just eat my waffle?" (Unfortunately, the rest of the country has to eat his waffle too. His waffle on the issue of Jerusalem, on the issue of campaign finance, on the issue of abortion and human rights, and on many more issues.)

"Race is still a powerful force in this country. Any African American candidate, or any Latino candidate, or Asian candidate or woman candidate confronts a higher threshold in establishing himself to the voters ..." (Unless that woman candidate is named Sarah Palin.)

Is this the calm disposition to which you refer?


We all have seen what little intelligence and LACK OF RATIONALITY can do to a country in 8 years... that Bush Presidency was a DISASTER.
Really?

Let's see.

Lower taxes than 8 years ago, but with greater federal government income.
Lower unemployment (even now) than 8 years ago.
50 million people in Iraq and Afghanistan freed from tyranical rule.
Higher average incomes per family.
Real estate prices higher than they were 8 years ago (yes, even now).
More federal money being used for ecological and environmental purposes than ever before.
More free medicines being distributed by the USA to African countries than ever before.
No terrorist attacks on US soil since 9/11 (compared to an average of 2 per year for the 40 years prior).
Iraq has a 78 billion dollar economic surplus, and is taking control of it's own security, slowly but surely.

Yeah, it's a complete disaster out there. And it's all Bush's fault.

And keep in mind, that in the 2 years that Congress has been in Democrat hands, we have seen
a doubling of the price of oil and the price of gas at the pump,
a weakening real estate market,
the fall of several major mortgage lenders (Thank you Chuck Schumer)
a decrease in the value of the dollar,
higher unemployment than under a Republican controlled Congress,
several major airlines have gone under,
Airlines have started charging for baggage, food and basic ameneties that used to be free,
Russia has begun to rear its ugly soviet head again,
and several terrorist groups and communist world leaders have endorsed Barrack Obama for President.

Yep, Bush is a complete disaster, ain't he. Good thing those Dems have everything under control.



Gee, it's just like old times... Grrrrrrrr
Watch your blood pressure. :(

Elliot

failing to vote on 45% of the issues that come up


What has Obama accomplished for the State of Il in his State Senate career
In the IL Senate, Obama:
* worked across party lines for the good of the state
* helped deliver what is said to have been the first significant campaign finance reform law in Illinois in 25 years
* brought law enforcement groups around to back legislation requiring that homicide interrogations be taped
* helped bring about passage of the state's first racial-profiling law
* was a chief sponsor of a law enhancing tax credits for the working poor
* played a central role in negotiations over welfare reform
* successfully pushed for increasing child care subsidies

ET, do you understand what is meant by the "present" vote in Illinois legislature sessions?


"I cannot swallow whole the view of Lincoln as the Great Emancipator." (So let's rewrite 143 years of history.)
from historynow.org:
...the Great Emancipator legend has had a decidedly distorting effect on our understanding of Lincoln's position, confusing him with those who openly advocated the abolition of slavery. In fact, Lincoln was always keenly aware that slavery, though morally wrong in his eyes, was sanctioned by law, and he frequently acknowledged that the rights of slave owners, both to retain their slaves and to have fugitive slaves returned, were clearly guaranteed in the Constitution. Before the outbreak of civil war, he advocated nothing that would directly challenge those rights. This position sharply distinguished him from abolitionists, many of whom were actively involved in supporting runaway slaves, and all of whom viewed the returning of fugitive slaves as unconscionable, whatever the Constitution might dictate. The most radical abolitionists openly denounced the Constitution for its protection of slavery and repudiated its authority.

Lincoln, by contrast, never put his antipathy for slavery ahead of his allegiance to the Constitution. He admitted privately that he hated to see slaves "hunted down, and caught, and carried back to their stripes," but he classed himself in 1855 with "the great body of the Northern people [who] do crucify their feelings, in order to maintain their loyalty to the constitution and the Union." 2 His public support of the Fugitive Slave Law moved the implacable Boston abolitionist, Wendell Phillips, to label him "the Slave Hound of Illinois."3 While the common goal of abolitionists was to put an end to slavery everywhere, Lincoln ran for president in 1860 on a platform that promised to leave slavery undisturbed in the states where it already existed.


"I've got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby." (Since when is a baby a punishment? I thought that babies were a blessing.)
Babies are a blessing when one can care for them properly. Thank God, Obama's older daughter is not pregnant.


"If the people cannot trust their government to do the job for which it exists - to protect them and to promote their common welfare - all else is lost." (Gee, and I thought that promoting the welfare of the people was the job of individuals, and that the job of the government was simply to protect their right to do so. I had no idea that the government's job was to make me happy.)
I thought the (Republican-led) government has been promoting our welfare and protecting us in all sorts of ways since 9/11.


"It's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." (Yeah. Very calm disposition.)
I grew up in a small town and saw exactly that--something worth ranting about. "Small-town values" my foot!

I like Sarah... she's a nice lady, but politicians are ALL the same!

I now "vote for Pedro"http://oranchak.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/vote-for-pedro.jpg

In the IL Senate, Obama:
* worked across party lines for the good of the state

To do what?


* helped deliver what is said to have been the first significant campaign finance reform law in Illinois in 25 years

What law was it. What did it do? Was it passed?


* brought law enforcement groups around to back legislation requiring that homicide interrogations be taped

And that is significant because..


* helped bring about passage of the state's first racial-profiling law

There were already FEDERAL racial profiling laws on the books. What did a state law accomplish that the federal law didn't already do? Except create issues of jurisdiction between federal and state law enforcement agencies?


* was a chief sponsor of a law enhancing tax credits for the working poor

How about sponsoring a law to lower their taxes, along with everyone else's?


* played a central role in negotiations over welfare reform

Which side was he on... pro welfare reform or against welfare reform? And how successful was he?


* successfully pushed for increasing child care subsidies

Again, why not just lower taxes.


ET, do you understand what is meant by the "present" vote in Illinois legislature sessions?

Yep. It means I don't want to vote "yea" because I disagree with the motion, but I can't vote "nay" because of the political risk involved, so I'll vote "present" so as not to stick my neck out and take responsibility for my position on the issue.

All in all, I don't see anything in your summary that can be defined as an accomplishment that makes him qualified for the presidency. For all the description of what issues Obama supposedly supported, you still haven't told me what he ACCOMPLISHED. He's the candidate of change. What change did he bring to Illinois? He's the candidate of reform. What reform did he bring to Illinois? What did he DO?! What accomplishment can he point to and say "I did that, see? That's why I should be President." Nobody seems to be able to answer this very basic question.


[/quote]from historynow.org:
...the Great Emancipator legend has had a decidedly distorting effect on our understanding of Lincoln’s position, confusing him with those who openly advocated the abolition of slavery. In fact, Lincoln was always keenly aware that slavery, though morally wrong in his eyes, was sanctioned by law, and he frequently acknowledged that the rights of slave owners, both to retain their slaves and to have fugitive slaves returned, were clearly guaranteed in the Constitution. Before the outbreak of civil war, he advocated nothing that would directly challenge those rights. This position sharply distinguished him from abolitionists, many of whom were actively involved in supporting runaway slaves, and all of whom viewed the returning of fugitive slaves as unconscionable, whatever the Constitution might dictate. The most radical abolitionists openly denounced the Constitution for its protection of slavery and repudiated its authority.

Lincoln, by contrast, never put his antipathy for slavery ahead of his allegiance to the Constitution. He admitted privately that he hated to see slaves "hunted down, and caught, and carried back to their stripes," but he classed himself in 1855 with "the great body of the Northern people [who] do crucify their feelings, in order to maintain their loyalty to the constitution and the Union." 2 His public support of the Fugitive Slave Law moved the implacable Boston abolitionist, Wendell Phillips, to label him "the Slave Hound of Illinois."3 While the common goal of abolitionists was to put an end to slavery everywhere, Lincoln ran for president in 1860 on a platform that promised to leave slavery undisturbed in the states where it already existed.

[/quote]

Which means what, exactly?

Who made the emancipation proclamation?

Who fought a war to end slavery in the USA, because doing so meant the unification of the North and South and of Whites and Blacks?

Who AMENDED THE CONSTITUTION because he felt the Constitution was wrong on the issue of slavery. Yes, Lincoln was a Constitutionalist, which is why he followed the rules laid down by the Founders to CHANGE the Constitution. One thing he did not do was "reinterpret" the Constitution.


Babies are a blessing when one can care for them properly. Thank God, Obama's older daughter is not pregnant.

Sorry, but babies are ALWAYS a blessing. If not for the natural parents, then for some other person willing to adopt. What they are NOT is a punishment or something to be gotten rid of or avoided because someone sees the baby as a headache. And you are right... thank G-d that Obama's daughter isn't pregnant. He'd probably have the baby aborted, possibly just before birth. And if the abortion failed, he'd abandon the baby to die on its own. I'm glad his daughter isn't pregnant.



I thought the (Republican-led) government has been promoting our welfare and protecting us in all sorts of ways since 9/11.

First of all, which "Republican led government" government do you mean? Last I heard, the Dems controlled Congress, which means that Bush can't do anything without their say-so. Second, the Constitution specifically requires the government to provide security from foreign and domestic threats of war and crime. That is VERY different from having a requirement to provide us with welfare to keep us happy, for which there is no Constitutional provision.

Here is section 8 of the US Constitution. The bolded parts are the ones about defense (the stuff we've been doing since 9/11).

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


To borrow money on the credit of the United States;


To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;


To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;


To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;


To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;


To establish post offices and post roads;


To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;


To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;


To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;


To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;


To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;


To provide and maintain a navy;


To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;


To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;


To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;


To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.








I grew up in a small town and saw exactly that--something worth ranting about. "Small-town values" my foot!

Then you agree that Obama was ranting, not speaking with a "calm disposition". (Ooops, I think you blundered into that one. If it was a rant, it wasn't a calm disposition, even by your own definition.)

Yep. It means I don't want to vote "yea" because I disagree with the motion, but I can't vote "nay" because of the political risk involved, so I'll vote "present" so as not to stick my neck out and take responsibility for my position on the issue.

Then you agree that Obama was ranting, not speaking with a "calm disposition". (Ooops, I think you blundered into that one. If it was a rant, it wasn't a calm disposition, even by your own definition.)
Your personal comment regarding "political risk" skews the meaning of "present."

I rant very calmly with clenched teeth and sarcastic mien. I'm sure Obama does too.

All in all, I don't see anything in your summary that can be defined as an accomplishment that makes him qualified for the presidency. Hello Elliot:

The Constitution says that a person needs to be a natural born citizen and be 35 years of age. Apparently, our founders didn't think you needed any more qualifications than that. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

excon

And you are right... thank G-d that Obama's daughter isn't pregnant. He'd probably have the baby aborted, possibly just before birth. And if the abortion failed, he'd abandon the baby to die on its own. I'm glad his daughter isn't pregnant.


That is a ridiculous thing to say. Disgusting actually, and certainly not what I would expect from you Elliot!!

Skell . The reason Elliot brings it up is because Obama blocked legislation in the Ill. Senate that specifically protected surviving babies of botched late term abortions.

The Constitution says that a person needs to be a natural born citizen and be 35 years of age. Apparently, our founders didn't think you needed any more qualifications than that. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.
How sad for those who needed assistence during birth... So if you were born by "cesarean" you have to find another job? Or more a case to prevents Star Trak's Data to become US President? What about Data's colleague Worf ? He was natural born :>)

:D :D :D





And you are right... thank G-d that Obama's daughter isn't pregnant. He'd probably have the baby aborted, possibly just before birth. And if the abortion failed, he'd abandon the baby to die on its own. I'm glad his daughter isn't pregnant.

That is a ridiculous thing to say. Disgusting actually, and certainly not what I would expect from you Elliot!!
Indeed ! Disgusting. No other words for that.

For ETWolverine : :mad: :mad: :mad:

.

Skell . the reason Elliot brings it up is because Obama blocked legislation in the Ill. Senate that specifically protected surviving babies of botched late term abortions.
Tom : that makes Elliot's remark even worse...

:(

I think it makes Obama's position monsterous. By contrast ,the Congress passed Federal Protection laws almost identical in language; and even the most radical pro-abortion Senators voted for it.

That is a ridiculous thing to say. Disgusting actually, and certainly not what i would expect from you Elliot!!!
Based on his record, it's exactly what I would expect from him. I had dared to hope that he had gotten bored with AMHD and moved on, but oh well.

Hello Elliot:

The Constitution says that a person needs to be a natural born citizen and be 35 years of age. Apparently, our founders didn't think you needed any more qualifications than that. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

excon

I think we would be better off as a nation if we took everyone who qualified and put their name in a hat and just chose one at random.

ETWOLVERINE also said this with the other statement you all have bashed... actually this was the first part...

"Sorry, but babies are ALWAYS a blessing. If not for the natural parents, then for some other person willing to adopt. What they are NOT is a punishment or something to be gotten rid of or avoided because someone sees the baby as a headache."



(I am not supporting his choice of words, but we need the whole story here guys... )

The Woverine said this: "Sorry, but babies are ALWAYS a blessing. If not for the natural parents, then for some other person willing to adopt. What they are NOT is a punishment or something to be gotten rid of or avoided because someone sees the baby as a headache."Hello start:

I agree with Elliot. Baby's are a blessing. However, some pregnancies are not. I believe, and the law of the land supports me, that a woman should have the right to CHOOSE whether she wants to continue to be pregnant.

excon

Hello Elliot:

The Constitution says that a person needs to be a natural born citizen and be 35 years of age. Apparently, our founders didn't think you needed any more qualifications than that. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

excon

Like many, excon, you confuse "eligibility" for "qualifications". Eligibility is one thing... you have to be 35 years old and born in the USA. Qualifications are a whole separate matter... the ability to do the job.

Nobody (except for a couple of real kooks who question Obama's place of birth without evidence to back it up, and whom I do not support in any way, shape or form) claims that Obama is ineligible to be president. I believe that he's perfectly eligible. I and my Conservative colleagues simply say he's unqualified.

Huge difference. And I think you know it.

C'mon Ex... you can do better than that.

Elliot

Indeed ! Disgusting. No other words for that.

For ETWolverine : :mad: :mad: :mad:

.

Dislike it all you want. But Obama is the one who voted against giving medical care for babies born alive after botch abortions.

Obama sees babies as punishment for a mistake and wants to eliminate that punishment.

I see babies as a gift, and hold Obama to task for his words.

So which is more disgusting... me holding Obama to his own words, or Obama's words themselves.

I stand by my statement. As I always do.

Elliot

Obama sees babies as punishment for a mistake and wants to eliminate that punishment.Please provide proof for that statement. Thank you.

Hello start:

I agree with Elliot. Baby's are a blessing. However, some pregnancies are not. I believe, and the law of the land supports me, that a woman should have the right to CHOOSE whether she wants to continue to be pregnant.

excon

First there is one method that is 100% effective in preventing teen pregnancy. Unfortunately Obama doesn't support teaching that method to teens. Instead he teaches that babies are punishment for mistakes, and if you don't want the baby, you should just eliminate it. Worse, he upholds the idea of eliminating the baby even AFTER it is born, a radical position even among those who support right to choose. THAT is what upsets me most.

Furthermore, you called it the "law of the land". Well, it really isn't the law of the land. It is a Supreme Court decision, not a law. Furthermore, it is a flawed Supreme Court decision based on a "Constitutional right" that does not actually exist except in the eyes of the judges who made the decision.

What OUGHT to happen is that Roe V. Wade should be overturned and individual states should be given the authority to decide for themselves. As things stand right now, most states would implement freedom of choice, which means that nothing would change. But the abortion issue is not something that is supposed to be "the law of the land" but rather a state's rights issue, with each state deciding for itself.

It is interesting that so many people are ticked off by what I said. Usually that can be attributed to hitting a nerve.

Let's take a look at exactly what I said.

1) Obama sees babies as a punishment for a mistake. The source for this is one of his own quotes. "I've got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby."

2) I disagree with the idea that babies are a punishment for anything. They are a gift and a blessing. ALWAYS. Even in rape and incest cases and cases of danger to the mother, where I believe that abortion should be permitted. The thought of weighing the trauma of the pregnant mother against the life of the baby is painful to me, and even though I support abortion in those cases, it is a terrible loss to have to terminate those pregnancies, and the loss of something really important... life. The idea that a baby is ever anything but a blessing is abhorrent to me.

3) Obama not only supports abortion and sees babies as punishments for mistakes, he supports the termination of babies AFTER they are born from botched abortions. This too is a matter of public record. I find this position especially abhorrent.

4) Wondergirl said to me, "Thank God, Obama's older daughter is not pregnant." I responded to that by saying, "Yeah, otherwise Obama might make her get rid of her mistake (either before birth or afterwards), based on his own stated position of babies being punishments for mistakes."

Exactly what part of this do you guys find problematic? These are, after all, Obama's own positions I'm citing. If you have a problem with them, then you have a problem with Obama, not me. These aren't MY positions, they're HIS. If they offend you, put the blame where it belongs, with the guy who holds those positions. Personally, I'm disgusted by them.

Elliot

Please provide proof for that statement. Thank you.
"I've got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby."

Barack Obama at Johnstown, PA Town Hall, Saturday, March 29, 2008


Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNzmly28Bmg

Elliot

What OUGHT to happen is that Roe V. Wade should be overturned and individual states should be given the authority to decide for themselves. How about letting each individual decide for them self? How about keeping the government out of the bedroom?

How about letting each individual decide for them self? How about keeping the government out of the bedroom?

Fine. I agree. Just as soon as you agree that the government has no place in my wallet, my gun rack and my retirement accounts.

Freedom of choice for ALL issues.

Elliot

Agreed.

Agreed.

Good. Then I expect you to argue against gun laws when the issue comes up. And against any expansion of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Keep the government out of the issue.

In return, I will argue in favor of the overturn of roe-v-wade in favor of individual rights to choose rather than the government's control over the issue. Keep the government out of the issue... even the Supreme Court.

I don't have all the free time to argue as you do. I know you live for arguing but I don't.

I don't have all the free time to argue as you do. I know you live for arguing but I don't.

Yeah... that's what I thought you'd say. :cool:

Elliot

he'd abandon the baby to die on its own. I'm glad his daughter isn't pregnant.


Talk about abhorrent. This was the part I found disgusting. This wasn't stating Obama's "record" as you try and claim. Not even close. It was insinuating something rather vile in fact! But hey, I'm sure you'll twist it again!

I see babies as a gift,

If I sent you a baby as a gift would you keep her and raise her yourself, personally keeping her with you 24/7 for the next 18 years?

If I sent you a baby as a gift would you keep her and raise her yourself, personally keeping her with you 24/7 for the next 18 years?

I know you weren't asking me, but yes, if it were legal YES. And if it meant that a life was saved, maybe two (mother and child)... then yes, yes I would.