I was raised in a Christian family. Even in the Christian faith there are so many ways to worship and ways to interpret the Bible. For example, some believe in a strict and plain dress code while others don't even address it. Some treat Sunday as a day of worship only and others go to church and then to the grocery store and on home to catch up on laundry and get ready for the next week's work schedule. Because we pull out the scripture that we want to adhere to, how do I know that I'm not missing something? There are so many differences in our own faith. It troubles me to think where I would be or what I would believe if I were raised in a Mormon family or a Jewish family. Would I think that this religion was the correct one? If I gave my child up for adoption and he were raised by a faithful J. Witness family, wouldn't he grow to be a faithful J.Witness? Would he go to hell at death because he was raised in the wrong family?

Most religions answer your questions by saying that "god reveals the truth to all people and gives you the free will to follow him or not." Meaning that even if you are not born into a particular religion god has told you which one is the correct one and if you didn't choose theirs you choose wrong and it's your fault because you denied the truth that was revealed to you by god. So according to the major religions even if you were born into the wrong faith it's no excuse because god told you which was the right one.

So where does that leave you? That's up to you. I recommend you do what you can to make the world a better place than when you arrived and not worry if you happen to believe the right brand of religion or not.

Yes our salvation depends on us, we will all answer to God for our own deeds, not someone else's that weren't our fault. Each will carry his own load

I think that just like you are questioning your faith, if you gave your son up hypothetically, he would eventually do the same and make his own decisions, the same as everyone. I do not think that it is only certain RELIGIONS that are going to heaven... I think we will all be considered by our own sins and our own life. Religion is a man made thing, a grouping of sort. I have studied religion in college as it is interesting to me. I have come to the conclusion that you have to do what is right and be the best person you can and God will know. So, no worries hon, and I also applaud you on actually thinking about it in a non biased way. Its nice to see people with a mind of their own out there.

That would all depend on the child. They would be raised with all the principles of a JW but it will ultimately be up to the individual whether they follow that path or not. Christians are encouraged by the apostle Paul to "Keep testing whether we are in the faith and keep proving what we are." (2 Cor 13:5)
So if the issue is that you are worried a child may be raised in the wrong faith, if their parents follow Paul's advice and pass it on to the child, as he grows he can check the teachings of his church speakers/instructors to see if they in fact come from the bible or are from "church traditions" or have perhaps been "tweaked" to to suit peoples lives, I'm pretty sure they will realise what is truth and what is not.
But basically the decision is that of the child once they reach an age of proper understanding.
BTW Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that hell is a literal place but that once dead, they stay that way with no spirit floating round somewhere or being tormented, rather waiting for Jesus to resurrect them in a new system on earth.
So what if this is true? This is one teaching that most other "christians" don't believe... so maybe it's worth testing this one out.. At least that way you wouldn't worry so much about your child suffering forever... if it turned out to be true.

I was raised in a Christian family. Even in the Christian faith there are so many ways to worship and ways to interpret the Bible.
Logical result of so many unclearities within a religion. Fascinating, isn't it ?


Some treat Sunday as a day of worship only and others go to church and then to the grocery store and on home to catch up on laundry and get ready for the next week's work schedule.
Some even have to work on Sunday : the result of the 24 hours society !


Would I think that this religion was the correct one?
The big question for every theist... Oh that darned Pascals Wager!!


Would he go to hell at death because he was raised in the wrong family?
That suggests that it is more the nitty gritty of the small print in the belief in a "God" deity that counts. What about the Ten Commandments as core reference ? And all that besides the lack of OSE in the existence of a deity in the first place...

:>)

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Well I would urge you to disregard that response, since it's not too helpful. But Credendovis' life story is a lot like yours. Anyway, once a child becomes an adult, reaches the age of reason, he is free to make his own choice. There is a lot of stories about twins separated at birth later meeting up and still being similar in a lot of ways even though they were unaware of each other. Before he's an adult, well his parents would answer for his actions, just like they can be held financially responsible for a crime committed by a juvenile

[QUOTE=wildandblue]well I would urge you to disregard that response, since it's not too helpful.]
This board is NOT in the question, but in the a discussions section (as the name of the board implies). Reactions here are not supposed to be answers to some question, but a reply to what is stated here.

:>)

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[QUOTE=wildandblue]well I would urge you to disregard that response
Thank you. I have disregarded it!

Thank you for letting us all know that, SpringCity !

:>)

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I was raised in a Christian family. Even in the Christian faith there are so many ways to worship and ways to interpret the Bible. For example, some believe in a strict and plain dress code while others dont even address it. Some treat Sunday as a day of worship only and others go to church and then to the grocery store and on home to catch up on laundry and get ready for the next week's work schedule. Because we pull out the scripture that we want to adhere to, how do I know that I'm not missing something? There are so many differences in our own faith. It troubles me to think where I would be or what I would believe if I were raised in a Mormon family or a Jewish family. Would I think that this religion was the correct one? If I gave my child up for adoption and he were raised by a faithful J. Witness family, wouldn't he grow to be a faithful J.Witness? Would he go to hell at death because he was raised in the wrong family?

According to Catholic teaching, no. People go to hell who reject God.

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the gist of your question is, "Why doesn't God reveal Himself to us and thus reveal which is the true religion?

The answer is because of "free will". God wants us to love Him and thus to search for Him because we love Him. But if He revealed Himself to us, His Omnipotent presence would overwhelm us and we would have to believe in Him whether we love Him or not.

Thats the same thing as holding a gun to someone's head and saying "Marry me!"

Obviously, love is not coerced.

So, if we love God and we don't believe that God is adequately represented by the Church or religion which we attend, then we must search for Him elsewhere.

But God is just, so be at peace:

Hebrews 11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

Sincerely,

De Maria

The answer is because of "free will".
"Free will" : another dogmatic claim that carries not one single iota of OSE for it's existence.
The "answer" is therefore without any value and validity : it is a wild religious claim, completely based on what one believes.

:>)

.

In my opinion I believe in science. But sometime I like to create things up. Right now there is no proof that there is a place called Hell after death that you did something bad. Even if is there a place where dead people are the dead people have no way to tell you it and which they turn to spirits . They could trying to tell you there is no such place as Heaven or Hell but only a place where spirits lives like normal people but like a spirit world. So my advice do what you think is right live you life the fullest. Be happy!

Goodluck!

According to Catholic teaching, no. People go to hell who reject God.

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the gist of your question is, "Why doesn't God reveal Himself to us and thus reveal which is the true religion?

The answer is because of "free will". God wants us to love Him and thus to search for Him because we love Him. But if He revealed Himself to us, His Omnipotent presence would overwhelm us and we would have to believe in Him whether we love Him or not.

Thats the same thing as holding a gun to someone's head and saying "Marry me!"

Obviously, love is not coerced.

So, if we love God and we don't believe that God is adequately represented by the Church or religion which we attend, then we must search for Him elsewhere.

But God is just, so be at peace:

Hebrews 11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

Sincerely,

De Maria


Well no offense, In my opinion "People go to hell who reject God." is not in my dictionary... And if god or jesus is born from this world they are just like us. "The Solar system started as a huge cloud of dust and gas called a nebula. This nebula was very cold. Then something happened. Just what is a matter of debate. However, something caused this nebula to start collapsing under its own gravity. As it collapsed, 99% of the material collected into the center where the Sun would eventually form. The rest of the material collapsed down into a disk of material that swirled around the forming Sun. As the Sun began form, the temperature at the center of our forming solar system rose. This controlled what materials were available to for the formation of planets. Here in the inner solar system, the temperatures we too high for anything but rocky materials, iron, and nickel to form solids. As a result of this, these are the materials from which the inner planets were built. In the outer solar system, it was cold enough for water, methane, and ammonia to form solids. So, the planets of the outer solar system were built from these materials as were as the rocky and metallic solids. With the addition of these ices to the mix, the planets of the outer solar system were able to grow big enough to grab and hold onto even the hydrogen and helium gas that was present in the solar nebula. Thus these planets grew into the gas giants. Comets from this part of the nebula also came into the inner solar system. It is from these comets that the inner planets (Earth included) got what volatiles they did. In Earth's case, it was enough to produce our rather thin atmosphere (when compared to those of the gas giants) and our oceans." Then some species start evolving which become human. What the religious people are relies too much on text and what people says or think too much. The only truth are you see it with your own two eyes. Well what you believe is your own belief. Probably think about what if there earth don't have any religion what will happen? I think probably nothing will change everybody just have the same life... school, work, and fun and nothing to worry about.

"The Solar system started as a huge cloud of dust and gas called a nebula. This nebula was very cold. Then something happened.

If you can believe that, you can believe anything... including the thought of there being a God! :rolleyes:

"The Solar system started as a huge cloud of dust and gas called a nebula. This nebula was very cold. Then something happened.
If you can believe that, you can believe anything... including the thought of there being a God!
Seems to me a clear misrepresentation of what was stated by Sunnywootxp, as he also clearly added :

Just what is a matter of debate. However, something caused this nebula to start collapsing under its own gravity.
Today we can witness new stars being born from collapsing gas clouds. NOT belief but fact !
Today we also witness that many stars have planets of different sizes. NOT belief but fact !
Today we also can see that supernova's explode throughout the galaxy. And such events create forces that often lead neighbouring gas clouds to collapse into suns and their solar systems.

So yes: something is happening all the time.

But believing anything? ANYTHING?? [/b[

I don't think so : if there is no OSE at all - not even the tiniest amount of OSE - for the existence of a supra-natural deity with an abnormal interest for every human being's sexual behavior, and the nasty habit to burn non-followers in hell - though he loves you - , why than believe in that myth?

[B]:>)

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In my opinion I believe in science.

Do you mean that you have faith that science can answer every question?


But sometime I like to create things up.

Do you mean that sometimes you believe in that which you make up without evidence?


Right now there is no proof that there is a place called Hell after death that you did something bad.

But there is evidence of that hell exists.


Even if is there a place where dead people are the dead people have no way to tell you it and which they turn to spirits . They could trying to tell you there is no such place as Heaven or Hell but only a place where spirits lives like normal people but like a spirit world. So my advice do what you think is right live you life the fullest. Be happy!

Goodluck!

In other words, you're saying you don't know if hell exists:
Even if is there a place where dead people

And you say imply it doesn't matter whether hell exists or not. That doesn't follow. Because if hell exists and you pretend that it doesn't you have condemned yourself to eternal damnation.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Well no offense, In my opinion "People go to hell who reject God." is not in my dictionary...

In other words, you don't believe in God.

But if God doesn't exist, how did anything get here?


And if god or jesus is born from this world they are just like us.

Jesus is God and man. He is omnipotent God and because He is omnipotent, He became man in order to reveal Himself to us.


"The Solar system started as a huge cloud of dust and gas called a nebula...

Sure. God put it there. Before the Solar System was born, science says that the Universe was born as a result of a Big Bang. Before the Big Bang, science says that there was no time or space. So, nothing existed before the Big Bang.

But nothing from nothing is nothing. Yet something had to make the Big Bang. Otherwise we could have nothing today.

So, logically speaking, only something can come from something else. That means that in order for this universe to exist, an eternal Something had to have created it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Seems to me a clear misrepresentation of what was stated by Sunnywootxp, as he also clearly added :

Today we can witness new stars being born from collapsing gas clouds. NOT belief but fact !
Today we also witness that many stars have planets of different sizes. NOT belief but fact !
Today we also can see that supernova's explode throughout the galaxy. And such events create forces that often lead neighbouring gas clouds to collapse into suns and their solar systems.

So yes: something is happening all the time.

But believing anything? ANYTHING ???[/b[

I don't think so : if there is no OSE at all - not even the tiniest amount of OSE - for the existence of a supra-natural deity with an abnormal interest for every human being's sexual behavior, and the nasty habit to burn non-followers in hell - though he loves you - , why than believe in that myth?

[B]:>)

.

Thanks for providing the OSE that God exists.

Thanks for providing the OSE that God exists.
I guess you missed the last paragraph I posted :

But believing anything? ANYTHING ??? I don't think so : if there is no OSE at all - not even the tiniest amount of OSE - for the existence of a supra-natural deity with an abnormal interest for every human being's sexual behavior, and the nasty habit to burn non-followers in hell - though he loves you - , why than believe in that myth?

:>)

.

In other words, you don't believe in God.

But if God doesn't exist, how did anything get here?



Jesus is God and man. He is omnipotent God and because He is omnipotent, He became man in order to reveal Himself to us.



Sure. God put it there. Before the Solar System was born, science says that the Universe was born as a result of a Big Bang. Before the Big Bang, science says that there was no time or space. So, nothing existed before the Big Bang.

But nothing from nothing is nothing. Yet something had to make the Big Bang. Otherwise we could have nothing today.

So, logically speaking, only something can come from something else. That means that in order for this universe to exist, an eternal Something had to have created it.

Sincerely,

De Maria


... Forget it you have your own belief and I choose to not belief on any god. But I want to know how do you know god put the solar system. Hmm what about aliens do they exist? (just a thought)

Personally, I believe in God but not religion, in God but not the bible, and it's working very well for me. ;)

All you can do is be the best person you can be, be good to others, make your corner of the world a better place to live in and hope for the best.

If you believe in God and believe he is merciful, then do your really think you'll go to hell because you aren't Catholic? I still can't believe that all of you can't see the contradictions. Maybe it isn't in the bible after all, but in the way you interpret the bible and the decissions you make because of it.

DMaria, I have to say that you remind me of many of the Catholics I went to school with. Very much "my way or the highway" attitude that turned me off organized relgion for good.

If anyone thinks that God is blind, that you can go to church every Sunday, sit in the pews, pray, sing, rejoice, eat his body, drink his blood and then go home and do whatever you want, then you are fooling yourselves.

The longer I'm here reading these posts, the happier I am with my choice in life. Does God accept me and my choice, why wouldn't he?

Sorry, a bit angry right now. :(

But i want to know how do you know god put the solar system
That is what they BELIEVE !


... hmm what about aliens do they exist? (just a thought)
Most likely that they exist. Why would life have developed only on a rather tiny planet in orbit around a rather plain sun, in a rather average galaxy that is part of a rather common cluster of galaxies (etc.)..

However : captain Kirk and his compagnions is a different business. With the limitations provided by nature it is most unlikely we will ever see one. Specially as the ones that ever may have arrived here on earth did their utmost to phone home to get out of here asap...
(And who could blame them?)

:>)

.

Today we can witness new stars being born from collapsing gas clouds. NOT belief but fact !
Today we also witness that many stars have planets of different sizes. NOT belief but fact !
Today we also can see that supernova's explode throughout the galaxy. And such events create forces that often lead neighbouring gas clouds to collapse into suns and their solar systems.

So yes: something is happening all the time.

Strange then how there is only one earth - surely if things were the right condition for earth and life to start, there should be more of them around us? There are so many stars, why not earths? No one can explain exactly how the earth and life began scientifically, just as no one can explain exactly how God made the earth, so the decision is left entirely up to the individual whether they be deists, christians, atheists etc.

I believe if we want a thread to debate the merits of particular religions or non-religions we should probably go to a different thread or we might give the OP the wrong idea about us.

Start the thread Michealb, post the link, I'll be there. :)

Strange then how there is only one earth - surely if things were the right condition for earth and life to start, there should be more of them around us?
There may be trillions upon trillions upon trillions of earth like planets. Who says they do not exist?


There are so many stars, why not earths?
Per average galaxy there are about 250 BILLION stars.
That means that there may be many BILLIONS of earthlike planets PER EACH GALAXY !!!


Noone can explain exactly how the earth and life began scientifically, just as noone can explain exactly how God made the earth, so the decision is left entirely up to the individual whether they be deists, christians, atheists etc.
I will be the last one to tell you that you may not believe what you prefer.
But if you want to relate to reality, than religion has an extremely poor track record.
In many thousands of years there NEVER has been any OSE for any religious claim.
Science however shows an increasing OSE record for origin of universe / evolution / etc.

What is the point of your argument?
Is your religious belief so poor and shallow that you are afraid of scientific research and findings ?

:>)

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What is the point of your argument?


Argue? With you? NEVER! For the rest it would be like watching a tennis match. Better do what Michael says and stick to the subject. :D

Argue? With you? NEVER!
Yes I realize it must be difficult for you to argue a tolerant but convinced Secular Humanist !


For the rest it would be like watching a tennis match. Better do what Michael says and stick to the subject.
This topic is called "Questions about my faith".
But if one reacts with questions about that faith, this is your reaction??
How tale telling !

:>)

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...Forget it you have your own belief and i choose to not belief on any god. But i want to know how do you know god put the solar system. hmm what about aliens do they exist? (just a thought)

The scientific evidence points to the existence of an intelligent Creator. In fact, even the scientific process itself points to the existence of an intelligent Creator. Natural laws also lead us to the existence of an Intelligent Creator.

The scientific process assumes the existence of logic and mathematics. Without these truths, we could not move forward in investigation of our universe.

1. Logic leads us to several assumptions which undergird our scientific process. First, we see that everything on this earth which has a beginning is made by something or someone.

2. The scientific evidence shows that the universe had a beginning.

3. Therefore, the universe had to be made by something or someone.

4. To postulate that the universe were not made by something or someone, would be to speculate AGAINST THE EVIDENCE.-

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria, it would be great if that were true, but it isn't.

I think you are grasping at straws trying to prove the existence of God when there is in fact no proof that God exists. You can theorize but that doesn't make your theory fact.

If your belief was fact then everyone would be forced to admit that there is scientific evidence of the existece of God, that simply isn't the case.

Like I said, it would be nice if this were fact, but it isn't.

The scientific evidence points to the existence of an intelligent Creator.

In fact, even the scientific process itself points to the existence of an intelligent Creator.

Natural laws also lead us to the existence of an Intelligent Creator.You keep stating that, but you have never provided any scientific evidence that points to the existence of an intelligent Creator. All you post is what you BELIEVE to be "true".


The scientific process assumes the existence of logic and mathematics. Without these truths, we could not move forward in investigation of our universe.
The scientific process tries to explain actual findings, and draws conclusions from actual findings and available supporting evidence. It is subject to repeated check and re-check by peers and anyone else, and is non-dogmatic. Unlike to what you suggest, there are no "truths" in science. The highest level in science is a Scientific Theory. And even these are subject to correction (for instance Newton's law of gravity).


Logic leads us to several assumptions which undergird our scientific process. First, we see that everything on this earth which has a beginning is made by something or someone.Incorrect : see my previous lines above. The entire earth had a beginning, but there is not one iota of proof that it was made by something or someone. That is what you BELIEVE !


The scientific evidence shows that the universe had a beginning. Therefore, the universe had to be made by something or someone.Therefore? What is that for wild claim? Something/someone? What ? Who ? Why ?


To postulate that the universe were not made by something or someone, would be to speculate AGAINST THE EVIDENCE.Against what evidence?? What you BELIEVE to be evidence??

:>)

.

The scientific evidence points to the existence of an intelligent Creator. In fact, even the scientific process itself points to the existence of an intelligent Creator. Natural laws also lead us to the existence of an Intelligent Creator.

The scientific process assumes the existence of logic and mathematics. Without these truths, we could not move forward in investigation of our universe.

1. Logic leads us to several assumptions which undergird our scientific process. First, we see that everything on this earth which has a beginning is made by something or someone.

2. The scientific evidence shows that the universe had a beginning.

3. Therefore, the universe had to be made by something or someone.

4. To postulate that the universe were not made by something or someone, would be to speculate AGAINST THE EVIDENCE.-

Sincerely,

De Maria

This stuff is too confusing... right now I know for both side scientific and religiously don't have any real evidence that can really prove. From what I think humans always wanted to be protected my someone else more superior then them so they keep accepting god exist. Hmm like superman why do people create it?. Well for superman in the movie there is such person that can really save the people. But for god what did he do? Hmm think back 911. Well no matter how bad or worst we made earth from primitive age to now a world of science and technology without any superior being help.

This stuff is too confusing...

OK.


.right now I know for both side scientific and religiously don't have any real evidence that can really prove.

OK.


From what I think humans always wanted to be protected my someone else more superior then them so they keep accepting god exist. Hmm like superman why do people create it?.

We believe that God has put in our very nature, the desire to find Him.


Well for superman in the movie there is such person that can really save the people.

Really? Superman is real?


But for god what did he do? Hmm think back 911.

God gave man a choice. He could be good or evil. Because some men decided to do evil on 911, is not God's fault.

However, from that evil deed God has inspired men to do much good.


Well no matter how bad or worst we made earth from primitive age to now a world of science and technology without any superior being help.

Only if you ignore the fact that your wisdom had to come from somewhere. It couldn't have come from inanimate rocks.

Sincerely,

De Maria

You keep stating that, but you have never provided any scientific evidence that points to the existence of an intelligent Creator. All you post is what you BELIEVE to be "true".


The scientific process tries to explain actual findings, and draws conclusions from actual findings and available supporting evidence. It is subject to repeated check and re-check by peers and anyone else, and is non-dogmatic. Unlike to what you suggest, there are no "truths" in science. The highest level in science is a Scientific Theory. And even these are subject to correction (for instance Newton's law of gravity).

Incorrect : see my previous lines above. The entire earth had a beginning, but there is not one iota of proof that it was made by something or someone. That is what you BELIEVE !

Therefore? What is that for wild claim? Something/someone? What ? Who ? Why ?

Against what evidence ??? What you BELIEVE to be evidence ???

:>)

.

No sense going over that again. But you and I got to a point which you never got past.

You believe that life came from inanimate, unintelligent matter.

I believe that God produced life.

Therefore, you have faith in inanimate, uninitelligent matter.

And I have faith in God.

Which is more reasonable?

You believe that life came from inanimate, unintelligent matter.
Once more (don't you ever read my replies?) : that is incorrect.
I DO NOT BELIEVE that life came either this, or that, or any other way.
I have stated this many times before : I do not know how life started. Science provides several good explanations, of which the rare clay auto-copy option seems to be very promising. Much better than the religious claim of an invisible deity in the sky , that can create the universe in 6 days, but can not create a perfect "manual for humanity", and therefore needs the assistence of imperfect human beings in the process to produce that manual.

NEITHER DO I HAVE FAITH in inanimate, uninitelligent matter. If I have any faith it is in the human capacity to THINK and draw CONCLUSIONS to understand what is going on around him/her. And to me that seems to be very reasonable.
Unlike all these religious unsupported wild claims, you seem to need to accept the world around you...

:>)

.

Once more (don't you ever read my replies?) : that is incorrect.
I DO NOT BELIEVE that life came either this, or that, or any other way.

Then what does it matter to you what I believe? You seem adamant that my belief is wrong. If you don't know, why do you pretend that you do?


I have stated this many times before : I do not know how life started.

I know you don't.


Science provides several good explanations, of which the rare clay auto-copy option seems to be very promising.

Oh, so that's what you believe. And since my belief contradicts the explanation which you like best, you oppose it tooth and nail.


Much better than the religious claim of an invisible deity in the sky , that can create the universe in 6 days, but can not create a perfect "manual for humanity", and therefore needs the assistence of imperfect human beings in the process to produce that manual.

I don't think so. I think the conclusion that only an intelligent Creator could create this universe fares much better than the belief that the universe came from nothing.


NEITHER DO I HAVE FAITH in inanimate, uninitelligent matter. If I have any faith it is in the human capacity to THINK and draw CONCLUSIONS to understand what is going on around him/her. And to me that seems to be very reasonable.

I have faith in the human capacity to think and to draw conclusions as well.


Unlike all these religious unsupported wild claims, you seem to need to accept the world around you...

It is because I understand and accept the world around me that I believe in God.


:>)

.

Bye!

OK.



OK.



We believe that God has put in our very nature, the desire to find Him.



Really? Superman is real?



God gave man a choice. He could be good or evil. Because some men decided to do evil on 911, is not God's fault.

However, from that evil deed God has inspired men to do much good.



Only if you ignore the fact that your wisdom had to come from somewhere. It couldn't have come from inanimate rocks.

Sincerely,

De Maria


Ok... if god is real why can't he come out and say Hello , Iam God nice to meet you! :D and what about those people who die in 911 I don't see God save them... and what I meant why superman are if god is real he could show us in the public like the in the movie superman be like a hero. :D Hmm what about other religion gods? I still don't see any of them pops out in front of us.

Also here some opinion found on other people...

(Heidi's Mummy)
I personally am a believer of the evolution theory for the creation of life.

Answer me this Christians, if God created Heaven and Earth and all that dwell, who the created God??

My husband's father believes in God completely and if you argue the evolution argument with him he will say things like
'it is subterfuge, put in place by God to test our faith'

What? B*llocks if you ask me!

I personally do not like religion because I feel that it is and has been the cause of a great may wars and tragedy's over the years.

'The Crusades'
911
That bunch of psychos who were targeting soldiers' and Heath Ledger's funerals because they said that they were 'fag enablers' and God was against that.

etc etc,

Anyway as you said, science has proved it we evolved we were not put here by some divine being.

Kez x


(Korey:))
Where do cavemen fall in the christain view of the creation of life because scientists have proven this?
and we have found their skeletons in fact it has been proven that we used to have tails to because over a long long long period our tails got shorter and is what is now our tail bones.I think if darwin would have known about DNA he would have gone a lot further in his study of evolution .he proved and showed that... well il give you an example so its easier to understand:
OK so say there was mabey a type of bird lets say a finch .so anyway say there was a flock of these birds that had small beaks on an island and one day a tornado hit the island and some of the birds got blown over to another island where the only thing to eat were very large seeds that needed to be cracked to eat.so lets say there was mabey one bird born with a slightly biger beek then the rest then it mated with another bird and their offspring all had slightly biger beaks and all the birds who didn't all died and the offspring would mate and so on and a long time after that we end up with a different type of bird so how did god make this finch... was it his otomatic creation because he """created""" the first finch i mean those finches evolved from something before them and so on and so forth...or backwards idk...but anyway the point is that we all evolved from one specific species...NOT adam and eve species i mean something like an ameba or something idk because it wouldnt make alot of sence that adam and eve evolved into cavemen and then back into humans......so if this is said then how can you still say that "god" made the finch and made everything ...and please dont say something like ....well i know he is my savior and all that stuff..and then say a scripture or tell me im going to hell and i should except jesus and go to church and im not correct and im illiterate because i didnt feel like useing spell chack or spelling things right or something because until I as in ME see actual evidence that what i just explained isnt true then mabey ...MABEY ill execpt "god".. sorry I ran out of room.


(crazy eyes)
first of all, scientists have not and cannot prove that evolution is responsible for all life on earth. While some of the archaeological finds may have been authentic, others were hoaxes. Evolutionists themselves have admitted that time is the savior of the theory of evolution. They can put their feet up and say time is responsible for evolution.
Supposedly, we all evolved from a single celled organism that over 'time' had grown in complexity
to produce complex living organisms. Here's the problem: single cell organisms do not 'evolve' or mutate into complex lifeforms.they can no more do so than a rock give birth to a blue whale, in other words its just not possible. Any biologist would tell you that. Also, the earth is supposedly billions of years old and therefore over this adequate amount of time all life was said to have evolved from a single cell.
here's another problem, scientists have been measuring the strength of the earths magnetic field and have found that its magnetic field strength is weakening exponentially every 400yrs. Using some mathematics they calculated the earths magnetic field strength(m.f.s) back many thousands of yrs and found that the m.f.s would have been too strong to support ANY form of life.
the threshold for life to have survived would be around 8000 - 9000 yrs ago. Definitely not the billions of yrs as claimed.
here's more proof: in physics, the laws of thermodynamics state that the universe is becoming more and more chaotic, and that the universe is in simple terms, devolving.
in other words the universe would have had to start from
a highly organized, structured form(creationism) and then become less and less organized and more chaotic(these laws have been proven scientifically BTW). It cannot be the other way around and become more ordered/structured.
and yes, while people may argue that technology is advancing, I'm referring to the universe, and ultimately, all life.
science and the bible don't contradict each other, in fact they
go hand in hand together, but people don't want to look at the
bible and creationism that way which is unfortunate.
there are so many more other ways to prove scientifically that evolution just simply cannot work.

I hope this covers all the angles for you and anyone else reading this.


That's all...

Then what does it matter to you what I believe? You seem adamant that my belief is wrong. If you don't know, why do you pretend that you do?
But I do not argue that whatever you believe is wrong : it is you who does that all the time.
You post topics with empty claims like "Evolution proves ...." or "The Origin of the Universe proves ....".
All I do is asking you for OSE support of what you insist to be true, but which you can't provide.
Because it is only what you believe to be true...

:>)

.

But I do not argue that whatever you believe is wrong :....

Good, then discussion over.

Ok... if god is real why can't he come out and say Hello , Iam God nice to meet you! :D and what about those people who die in 911 I don't see God save them... and what I meant why superman are if god is real he could show us in the public like the in the movie superman be like a hero. :D Hmm what about other religion gods? I still don't see any of them pops out in front of us.

As for the Christian God, He doesn't reveal Himself because He doesn't want to force us to believe in Him. He has given us free will and He doesn't violate it.

If He were to reveal Himself to us in all His glory, we would not be able to exercise our free will. And faith is not coerced.


Also here some opinion found on other people...

Hmm? Not your opinions? Or what?



(Heidi's Mummy)
I personally am a believer of the evolution theory for the creation of life.

Then you believe that inanimate, uniintelligent matter created organisms millions of times more complex than intelligent men can create today.

That is a lot of faith in inanimate, unintelligent matter.


Answer me this Christians, if God created Heaven and Earth and all that dwell, who the created God??

God is uncreated.

Science teaches us that everything which has a beginning is made by something else. Science also teaches us that the universe had a beginning.

Logically then, the universe was made by a pre existing being.

Science also tells us that the universe has order and design.
Since we are not aware of any creation with order and design which was not made by a creature with even a small bit of intelligence, then that means that the Pre existing being who made the universe had to be Intelligent.


My husband's father believes in God completely and if you argue the evolution argument with him he will say things like 'it is subterfuge, put in place by God to test our faith'

I guess you need to speak to your husband's father.


What? B*llocks if you ask me!

I didn't ask you did I?


I personally do not like religion because I feel that it is and has been the cause of a great may wars and tragedy's over the years.

The worst tragedies in history have been caused by atheistic regimes.


'The Crusades'

911


That bunch of psychos who were targeting soldiers' and Heath Ledger's funerals because they said that they were 'fag enablers' and God was against that.

etc etc,

Atheistic regiimes led by Hitler, Marx, Stalin, Kmer rouge and on and on. They killed more people in one century than all religious wars put together THROUGHOUT THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.


Anyway as you said, science has proved it we evolved we were not put here by some divine being.

Science has provided evidence that we evolved. That evidence has provided evidence that we were created by a Divine Intelligence.

If you saw a message in the dirt, like, "bring me donuts". Would you assume that it was created by the wind and rain or that it was created by a human being.

The simplest organisms of life carry in their dna and in their genes, messages millions of times more complicated than that message on the ground. Yet you assume that unintelligent inanimate matter wrote those messages?

That is speculating against the evidence. It is on the order of a fairy tale.


Kez x


(Korey:))
Where do cavemen fall in the christain view of the creation of life because scientists have proven this?

First men.


and we have found their skeletons in fact it has been proven that we used to have tails to because over a long long long period our tails got shorter

Has that been proven? Provide the evidence.


and is what is now our tail bones.I think if darwin would have known about DNA he would have gone a lot further in his study of evolution .he proved and showed that... well il give you an example so its easier to understand:
OK so say there was mabey a type of bird lets say a finch .so anyway say there was a flock of these birds that had small beaks on an island and one day a tornado hit the island and some of the birds got blown over to another island where the only thing to eat were very large seeds that needed to be cracked to eat.so lets say there was mabey one bird born with a slightly biger beek then the rest then it mated with another bird and their offspring all had slightly biger beaks and all the birds who didn't all died and the offspring would mate and so on and a long time after that we end up with a different type of bird so how did god make this finch... was it his otomatic creation because he """created""" the first finch I mean those finches evolved from something before them and so on and so forth... or backwards I don't know... but anyway the point is that we all evolved from one specific species..

What do you mean, "from one specific species"? They are all finches. I believe in macro evolution, but this is not an example of macro evolution. It is an example of micro evolution. This doesn't explain the great changes from one species to another within one genus.


.NOT adam and eve species I mean something like an ameba or something I don't know because it wouldn't make a lot of sense that adam and eve evolved into cavemen

You mean that Adam and Eve devolved. We don't believe that either, but there is evidence of animals which have devolved. Many species of birds have useless wings.


and then back into humans... so if this is said then how can you still say that "god" made the finch and made everything... and please don't say something like... well I know he is my savior and all that stuff.. and then say a scripture or tell me I'm going to hell and I should except jesus and go to church and I'm not correct and I'm illiterate because I didn't feel like using spell chack or spelling things right or something because until I as in ME see actual evidence that what I just explained isn't true then mabey... MABEY ill execpt "god".. sorry I ran out of room.

If I understood the question in that rambling, you asked, "how can you say that God made the finch and everything?"

The intelligence of the design. There is no way that an unintelligent animal can by accident develop into more and more sophisticated creatures.


(crazy eyes)
first of all, scientists have not and cannot prove that evolution is responsible for all life on earth. While some of the archaeological finds may have been authentic, others were hoaxes. Evolutionists themselves have admitted that time is the savior of the theory of evolution. They can put their feet up and say time is responsible for evolution.
Supposedly, we all evolved from a single celled organism that over 'time' had grown in complexity
to produce complex living organisms. Here's the problem: single cell organisms do not 'evolve' or mutate into complex lifeforms.they can no more do so than a rock give birth to a blue whale, in other words its just not possible. Any biologist would tell you that. Also, the earth is supposedly billions of years old and therefore over this adequate amount of time all life was said to have evolved from a single cell.
here's another problem, scientists have been measuring the strength of the earths magnetic field and have found that its magnetic field strength is weakening exponentially every 400yrs. Using some mathematics they calculated the earths magnetic field strength(m.f.s) back many thousands of yrs and found that the m.f.s would have been too strong to support ANY form of life.
the threshold for life to have survived would be around 8000 - 9000 yrs ago. Definitely not the billions of yrs as claimed.
here's more proof: in physics, the laws of thermodynamics state that the universe is becoming more and more chaotic, and that the universe is in simple terms, devolving.
in other words the universe would have had to start from
a highly organized, structured form(creationism) and then become less and less organized and more chaotic(these laws have been proven scientifically BTW). It cannot be the other way around and become more ordered/structured.
and yes, while people may argue that technology is advancing, I'm referring to the universe, and ultimately, all life.
science and the bible don't contradict each other, in fact they
go hand in hand together, but people don't want to look at the
bible and creationism that way which is unfortunate.
there are so many more other ways to prove scientifically that evolution just simply cannot work.

I hope this covers all the angles for you and anyone else reading this.

That last part seemed to agree with me.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria commenting to Sunnywootxp :

As for the Christian God, He doesn't reveal Himself because He doesn't want to force us to believe in Him. He has given us free will and He doesn't violate it.

If He were to reveal Himself to us in all His glory, we would not be able to exercise our free will. And faith is not coerced.
How do you know that? Because it is written in that human-made book called the Bible?
Or do you BELIEVE that? Where does the Bible speak of Free Will ?
Please call Chapter and line !

How handy if it was stated in the Bible, as that would exclude you of any need to support your wild religious claims.
HOWEVER : that also includes that you can NEVER claim that what you believe is "true", logical, or factual.

All you can do is BELIEVE THAT!! And from me you may believe that ! Didn't I state that all the time?

:>)

.

De Maria commenting to Sunnywootxp :

How do you know that? Because it is written in that human-made book called the Bible?
Or do you BELIEVE that? Where does the Bible speak of Free Will ?
Please call Chapter and line !

The Bible doesn't use the words free will. But it is clear that God has given us a choice:

Deuteronomy 30 19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


How handy if it was stated in the Bible, as that would exclude you of any need to support your wild religious claims.
HOWEVER : that also includes that you can NEVER claim that what you believe is "true", logical, or factual.

All you can do is BELIEVE THAT!! And from me you may believe that ! Didn't I state that all the time?


?? Are you on drugs?

Sincerely,

De Maria

The Bible doesn't use the words free will.
Than why do you claim that free will exists? Based on what?


But it is clear that God has given us a choice.
Not clear at all. That are just words. Empty human words. Not OSE.


Are you on drugs?
I never used any drugs, nor do I drink alcohol.

I note that you are *just one of "them"* : one of those who - if you do not accept their highly questionable personal religious views - start becoming rude and/or nasty...

Than why do you claim that free will exists? Based on what?

Based on the fact that He gives us a choice whether to believe in Him or not.


Not clear at all. That are just words. Empty human words. Not OSE.

Human words are good enough for me.


I never used any drugs, nor do I drink alcohol.

Just asking. Cause your words became incoherent.


I note that you are *just one of "them"* : one of those who - if you do not accept their highly questionable personal religious views - start becoming rude and/or nasty...

Lol!! That's rich. Coming from probably the most insulting person on this forum, that is really funny.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Hitler and Stalin were both Catholics. In fact both of them were on their way to becoming priests before they took leadership. If you want to blame anything blame their religious up bringing. This is just another example of the religious fanatics twisting the facts to make their point. It doesn't matter if they lie or not as long as you believe the word of god as it comes from their mouth.

Also Karl Marx never killed anyone he was an idea man and given how he cared for the poor I don't think he would have wanted anyone to be killed.

Read a book other than the bible for once you might learn something. I suggest you start with "mein kampf" by Adolf Hitler. It is still available to read in fact although the Catholic church has banned many books "mein Kampf" is not banned. Read it and you will find out how deeply religious Hitler was and how he saw the killing of the Jews as a continuation of what the Catholic church had been doing for years. The Catholic church saw it as a good thing as well since they never ex-communicated him.

Hitler and Stalin were both Catholics. In fact both of them were on their way to becoming priests before they took leadership.

Sad to say, they were raised in Catholic families. However, they were both atheists and ruled over atheistic regimes.


If you want to blame anything blame their religious up bringing.

They obviously rejected the religion of their upbringing.


This is just another example of the religious fanatics twisting the facts to make their point. It doesn't matter if they lie or not as long as you believe the word of god as it comes from their mouth.

Perhaps you are twisting the facts. I'm not. I know for a fact that people can be raised Catholic and grow up to reject what they were taught to believe. I did it and there are several people on this forum who have done it.


Also Karl Marx never killed anyone he was an idea man and given how he cared for the poor I don't think he would have wanted anyone to be killed.

My mistake.


Read a book other than the bible for once you might learn something.

I've read many books in my life.


I suggest you start with "mein kampf" by Adolf Hitler.

I read that when I was 13.


It is still available to read in fact although the Catholic church has banned many books "mein Kampf" is not banned. Read it and you will find out how deeply religious Hitler was and how he saw the killing of the Jews as a continuation of what the Catholic church had been doing for years. The Catholic church saw it as a good thing as well since they never ex-communicated him.

There was no need. He ex communicated himself.

Obviously, you read quite a bit. You just need to distinguish between propaganda and truth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Maria I got a great question for you, why do you choose to believe in god or jesus(are they both the same?)? There are many other religion in the world. And I found an interesting fact christianity began with the teachings of Jesus Christ around 30 C.E, I remember before you said god made this world but there are other religion that have there own god... don't tell all the gods are originally brothers and sisters but they got into a fight at some point so they all split out and become their own god :D (iam very creative but maybe its true). And "Hinduism is generally considered to be the oldest religion still being practiced today. This ancient religion was born when the Aryan peoples migrated to Northern India and first put their religious tradition into writing. The texts they created are the Vedas, which were written around 1,500 B.C.E. (before common era) and have greatly influenced Indian culture ever since." (That's pretty long isn't it 1,500 B.C.E) In my opinion from what I see most people what their family believes in their children believe the same. Or you have been converted by some priests or people what made you believe in god or jesus. Or just out of the blue I just believe in them :D .

As stated by DeMaria


Human words are good enough for me.

Obviously not, we're human, our words aren't good enough for you.


Lol!! That's rich. Coming from probably the most insulting person on this forum, that is really funny.

If you're rude then Cred will be rude back, as will most others, yourself included. Cred and I used to butt heads all the time, we couldn't have a rational discussion if our lives depended on it.

One day I looked at what I had written to him and realized that I was largely to blame for that, if you poke someone enough then they poke back. I apologized, asked if we could let bygones be bygones and start fresh, and he agreed, just like that. Why, because he's a good person. No, he doesn't believe in God, but he's still a good person, why isn't that enough? Are only people who believe in God, good? Not in my experience. I consider Cred a friend. I don't always agree with him, but I am respectful of his beliefs, as he is of mine.

Bottom line, we all defend what we believe, and we defend it with passion which sometimes leads to rudeness and name calling. We are after all human, and we make mistakes. Before long, if we continue to read everything with anger, we are not longer discussing, but fighting. What has fighting ever accomplished? I'll tell you what, a closed thread, that's what, and more anger.

DeMaria, believe in the Catholic Church, it is your right. Spread the "word of God" to people that want to hear it, that is your mission as a Catholic. Go to church and listen, that is the path you have chosen. But don't expect others to follow suit just because you "say" that you are right, because you don't have proof that you are, no matter how you twist things around, you don't have proof.

God Bless.

Just follow your heart and decide for yourself what is best for you and those you love regardless of what other people are doing and expecting from you.

Maria I got a great question for you, why do you choose to believe in god or jesus(are they both the same?)?

Yes. We believe in the Trinity. Three Divine Persons in One God. Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.


There are many other religion in the world.

True.


And I found an interesting fact christianity began with the teachings of Jesus Christ around 30 C.E,

Correct.


I remember before you said god made this world but there are other religion that have there own god... don't tell all the gods are originally brothers and sisters but they got into a fight at some point so they all split out and become their own god :D (iam very creative but maybe its true).

But probably not. I'll go by the evidence for Jesus Christ rather than someone's imagination no matter how good it might be.


And "Hinduism is generally considered to be the oldest religion still being practiced today. This ancient religion was born when the Aryan peoples migrated to Northern India and first put their religious tradition into writing. The texts they created are the Vedas, which were written around 1,500 B.C.E. (before common era) and have greatly influenced Indian culture ever since." (That's pretty long isn't it 1,500 B.C.E) In my opinion from what I see most people what their family believes in their children believe the same. Or you have been converted by some priests or people what made you believe in god or jesus. Or just out of the blue I just believe in them :D .

I have compared the beliefs of the Hindu to the beliefs of Christianity. I don't find the beliefs of the Hindu persuasive.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sad to say, they were raised in Catholic families. However, they were both atheists and ruled over atheistic regimes.


They obviously rejected the religion of their upbringing.

Perhaps you are twisting the facts. I'm not. I know for a fact that people can be raised Catholic and grow up to reject what they were taught to believe. I did it and there are several people on this forum who have done it.

There was no need. He ex communicated himself.

Obviously, you read quite a bit. You just need to distinguish between propaganda and truth.


So when Hitler wrote "I am a Catholic and I always will be." We are just suppose to assume he was an atheist with no facts because no Catholic would do that. Find me one, one source From Hitler or from someone close to him where he said he was an atheist. You won't because he was Catholic and the church fully understood what he was doing and it wasn't till he lost that they even attempted to disown him. Even if he was an atheist he didn't kill people because of atheistism he killed people cause he was crazy probably a product of his upbringing.

Obviously not, we're human, our words aren't good enough for you.

There are many human beings with conflicting opinions. I studied the various religions and I believe the opinions of the Christians. Specifically the Catholics.


If you're rude then Cred will be rude back, as will most others, yourself included. Cred and I used to butt heads all the time, we couldn't have a rational discussion if our lives depended on it.

Creds a rude individual. He thinks by being rude he can force people to believe as he does or to leave this site. Therefore if we give in to his rudeness, he has won.


One day I looked at what I had written to him and realized that I was largely to blame for that, if you poke someone enough then they poke back. I apologized, asked if we could let bygones be bygones and start fresh, and he agreed, just like that. Why, because he's a good person. No, he doesn't believe in God, but he's still a good person, why isn't that enough? Are only people who believe in God, good? Not in my experience. I consider Cred a friend. I don't always agree with him, but I am respectful of his beliefs, as he is of mine.

I'm glad the both of you are friends.


Bottom line, we all defend what we believe, and we defend it with passion which sometimes leads to rudeness and name calling. We are after all human, and we make mistakes. Before long, if we continue to read everything with anger, we are not longer discussing, but fighting. What has fighting ever accomplished? I'll tell you what, a closed thread, that's what, and more anger.

Do me a favor. The next time that I insult Cred FIRST, let me know. Because all I remember is my rebutting his insults.


DeMaria, believe in the Catholic Church, it is your right.

Thanks. I'm glad you realize that.


Spread the "word of God" to people that want to hear it, that is your mission as a Catholic. Go to church and listen, that is the path you have chosen. But don't expect others to follow suit just because you "say" that you are right, because you don't have proof that you are, no matter how you twist things around, you don't have proof.

Well, I don't think I twist anything around. And this advice of yours applies to you as well. Just because you don't believe in the Bible or in going to Church don't expect others to believe as you do.


God Bless.

God bless you as well.

Sincerely,

De Maria

So when Hitler wrote "I am a Catholic and I always will be." We are just suppose to assume he was an atheist with no facts because no Catholic would do that.

In my youth, I was a Hitler fanatic. I didn't just read Mein Kampf, I read everything I could find about Hitler.

Oh, I also happened to be an anti-Catholic atheist. One of the things that drew me to Hitler is that he wanted to be rid of religion in every form. Before the rewriting of history, ATHEISTS embraced Hitler. At least the ones I knew. And everyone understood that Hitler was a master of propaganda. What you have fallen for is one of Hitler's lies.

But actions speak louder than words:

If Hitler believed in the Catholic Church, why did he establish NAZISM as the state religion?

Why did he replace the Bible with Mein Kampf as the book which should be studied in school?

Why did he persecute people of all religions, including Priests and Nuns?


Find me one, one source From Hitler or from someone close to him where he said he was an atheist. You won't because he was Catholic and the church fully understood what he was doing and it wasn't till he lost that they even attempted to disown him.

Hitler was too shrewd for that. He kept stringing religious people along with grandiose religious terms in his speeches. But the first chance he got, he disbanded religious groups and began systematically destroying first Jews and then Catholics.


Even if he was an atheist he didn't kill people because of atheistism he killed people cause he was crazy probably a product of his upbringing.

Yes, he did. He killed people because he was atheist and he wanted to impose his beliefs on his people.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I'm an atheist and I think Hitler was an awful person(I always have) and anyone who thinks he was any different is an awful person as well. Obviously if you liked Hitler you are either warped or had a warped sense of what he did and why. If you are warped why would any of us listen to the crazy things you say. You apparently lack judgement and have gone from one awful thing to another. I think you have fallen for one of the Catholic religions awful lies and I think it's very apparent that I have a much better judgement than you do and since you only have your judgement as evidence perhaps you should use mine.

I still would like to see if you have any sources for this crazy idea you have. I think he got his ideas from Martin Luther who Hitler has been known to study his work and below is an example of the work of Martin Luther.


Luther advocated an eight-point plan to get rid of the Jews either by religious conversion or by expulsion:

"First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. ..."
"Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. ..."
"Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. ..."
"Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. ..."
"Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. ..."
"Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them.. . Such money should now be used in... the following [way]... Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed [a certain amount]... "
"Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."
"If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country" and "we must drive them out like mad dogs."

I'm an atheist and I think Hitler was an awful person(I always have) and anyone who thinks he was any different is an awful person as well.

I agree.


Obviously if you liked Hitler you are either warped or had a warped sense of what he did and why.

That was a long time ago. And I'm a totally different person today. But I guess you're frustrated since I can refute all your arguments. So, now your going to start insulting me.

But this is America. Our forefathers died for my right to disagree with you. Get used to it.


If you are warped

I don't think I'm warped. But I think you are. Does that make you happy? Is that the type of discussion you would rather have? Where is that peace which you were telling me about?

Oh no, I know what you want. A discussion where you can insult the Christian and the Christian leaves or just permits you to walk all over him.

That ain't going to happen Michael. Haven't you learned by now?

So, if you want me to respect you, you'd better respect me as well.


why would any of us listen to the crazy things you say.

For one, I don't think what I have to say is crazy. And you have a choice. You can simply block my messages if you don't want to hear them. I believe at least one other person on this forum has done so.


You apparently lack judgement

My judgement is pretty good.


and have gone from one awful thing to another.

I've gone from atheism to Love Incarnate.


I think you have fallen for one of the Catholic religions awful lies

Prove it. Otherwise, your welcome to your opinion, but its wrong.


and I think it's very apparent that I have a much better judgement than you do

I'll let others decide between you and I.


and since you only have your judgement as evidence perhaps you should use mine.

Lol!! Here, since I think your judgement is poor, you should use mine. Lol!!

I think you're serious too!! Rofl!!


I still would like to see if you have any sources for this crazy idea you have.

The crazy idea that Hitler was a liar? All you have to do is read history.


I think he got his ideas from Martin Luther who Hitler has been known to study his work and below is an example of the work of Martin Luther.

Maybe you could satisfy your fascination with Hitler by starting another thread about that subject.

Sincerely,

De Maria

What was the original post, I've forgotten, oh, yeah questions about faith.

Well, the OP hasn't been back since she posted her question, can't say that I blame her, we've strayed so far off topic that I'm surprised we haven't discussed abortion and God's views on that.

I'm just as guilty as everyone else, but having said that, perhaps we should get back on topic, not that it matters seeing as the OP obviously isn't coming back.

I'm actually surprised that this thread hasn't been closed yet.

What was the original post, I've forgotten, oh, yeah questions about faith.

Well, the OP hasn't been back since she posted her question, can't say that I blame her, we've strayed so far off topic that I'm surprised we haven't discussed abortion and God's views on that.

I'm just as guilty as everyone else, but having said that, perhaps we should get back on topic, not that it matters seeing as the OP obviously isn't coming back.

I'm actually surprised that this thread hasn't been closed yet.

Me too. I'm ready to get back on topic as well.

I personally do not believe someone will go to hell for what they believe in. I grew up in a Mormon family, in the Mormon capitol of the world - Salt Lake City. When I turned sixteen, I decided I wanted to learn about other religions and make sure that I was following what felt right to me. I studied many religions, their beliefs, how they interpreted the scripture, what they taught, and how they treated people in general. Almost all churches, both christian and non christian state that they are the only "true" church and that unless everyone believes what they teach, there is no salvation.

My path eventually led me to Wicca - a pagan religion. I feel that this is right for me. I have practiced Wicca for almost seven years now, and have had no doubts or crisis of faith. (not saying doubts or crisis of faith is a bad thing, everyone has them) I have been happier and more content with the way my life has been both the good and bad. Am I saying that the pagan religions are the true religions and everyone else, including all christians, are going to hell? No I am not. I believe god (or gods if you will) gave us the freedom to choose because there is no right or wrong answer. We will be judged by our actions, how we live and treat others, not because we went and sat in a building on Sunday. Personally I feel closer to the gods when I am in nature than when I am in a busy crowded building with others who use their faith as a shield.

My path eventually led me to Wicca - a pagan religion. I feel that this is right for me.
That's all there is to it ! If you feel good with that belief, why not? It is just as "good" and "valid" as any other religious belief ! Just don't start arguing with frustrated religious mono-theistic fundamentalists.
That is nothing but wasting time...

:)

Fireandice, I've always been fascinated by the Wiccan religion, I think it's great that you found something that you really believe in. :)

I agree Cred, if you feel good with your belief than go for it! I myself don't have a problem with other religions and their beliefs, I just have a problem with them always telling me my beliefs are wrong.

There are so many different religions out there, they can't all be right, or maybe they are. Either way, as long as you are happy with your chosen beliefs, that's all that matters.

I agree completely. Living in a city where everyone assumes you are Mormon can be trying at times. While I have found that all faiths have good qualities, I do not feel it is right to judge anyone by what they believe. I tell people all of the time that they do not have to agree with my spiritual beliefs, but that I do not want them to try to force theirs on me and in return I will not force mine on them. I am very open with my beliefs, practice various rituals and read the tarot... and I will gladly explain my beliefs and even have discussions about it, as long as these types of talks do not turn into the whole "you are wrong, i am right" type of discussion. Many people have misconceptions about the pagan religions and I will be the first one to try to explain them correctly, but I also understand that many will not agree with my beliefs, and I am OK with that, as long as they understand that while I will respect their faith in whatever they believe in, it doesn't mean I have to believe the same way

But I guess you're frustrated since I can refute all your arguments.

I am frustrated because you are refuting my augment with no source. A debate goes no where if all you do is say this happened and it's so because I say so. Your starting to sound like your own religion where your word is beyond doubt.

I am not going to let you blatantly lie about something without rebuttal though. Especially something as established as Hitler being a Catholic. Here is some more information that proves Hitlers devotion to religion.

"We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession...."
- Article 20 of the program of the German Workers' Party (later named the National Socialist German Workers' Party, NSDAP)

I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.
- Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941

I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 1

As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 3

I could point out more but I think you get the point one of the most evil men in history was a Catholic. Now I'm willing to say the man was a crazy charismatic leader who did so for his own power and although the church could have stopped him by threating to excommunicate him and didn't. His religious leanings in this case probably weren't the reason for the killings this time.

Sorry for a short answer but here it goes...

I was raised by a Mormon and a Catholic and went to a "Christian" church all my life...

I am Agnostic...

The thing is, at some point in our lives we all come to terms with differences in how we are/were raised...

And just because you are raised one way... does not mean you will remain that way.

Same goes for our kids... but I am a perfect example of a child turning in to an adult and straying from her parents beliefs...

All I can hope is that my kids will be good, and not lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc. Those are the core values... what they do with them when they are adults... is their choice :0)

Keeping in mind the original topic post :

... If I gave my child up for adoption and he were raised by a faithful J. Witness family, wouldn't he grow to be a faithful J.Witness? Would he go to hell at death because he was raised in the wrong family?

... I was raised by a Mormon and a Catholic and went to a "Christian" church all my life... I am Agnostic... All I can hope is that my kids will be good, and not lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc. Those are the core values... what they do with them when they are adults... is their choice
Indeed. Those are the core values. How true!

:)

It seems to me that most people grow up to question the faith they were raised to follow. At least that seems to be the case here.

So, to the OP, I don't think that a child raised as a JW or Mormon or any other religion, will necessarily follow that religion as an adult.

I certainly didn't, and it seems like most of the people who posted here haven't either.

Altenweg,

We are however a band of misfits. The majority of people who grow up in one religion follow that religion without question. Apparently following your parents without question at one point was an evolutionanary advantage. You know it helps if you listen when your parents say "don't touch the fire." instead of testing it for yourself.

I was raised in a Christian family. Even in the Christian faith there are so many ways to worship and ways to interpret the Bible. For example, some believe in a strict and plain dress code while others dont even address it. Some treat Sunday as a day of worship only and others go to church and then to the grocery store and on home to catch up on laundry and get ready for the next week's work schedule. Because we pull out the scripture that we want to adhere to, how do I know that I'm not missing something? There are so many differences in our own faith. It troubles me to think where I would be or what I would believe if I were raised in a Mormon family or a Jewish family. Would I think that this religion was the correct one? If I gave my child up for adoption and he were raised by a faithful J. Witness family, wouldn't he grow to be a faithful J.Witness? Would he go to hell at death because he was raised in the wrong family?
Read the Bible- if it is not in the bible then it has nothing to do with your personal faith
Follow the bible- think about this
EXAMPLE
Does wearing a dress and having long hair make you a better christian? Does it help you witness to people?
If yes then go for it if no
Then it doesn't matter
My view on Christianity is- everybody has once piece of the picture
But as long as they believe in jesus- as long as everyone can agree on that-
Then that is all that really matters

Read the Bible- if it is not in the bible then it has nothing to do with your personal faith.
That makes no sense at all ! If something may or may not be found in the Bible has little to do with anybody's personal belief or faith.

The essence of being a Christian / Muslim / Hindu / Buddhist / Jew / etc. etc. etc. is NOT in your words but in your deeds!!

:rolleyes:

Quote by Michealb

You know it helps if you listen when your parents say "don't touch the fire." instead of testing it for yourself

That's why I grew up to find my own beliefs, I was the kid that touched the fire even after my parents said not to. :)

Quote by Cred

That makes no sense at all ! If something may or may not be found in the Bible has little to do with anybody's personal belief or faith.

I agree Cred. I don't follow the bible, and I have faith. One doesn't need the bible in order to believe in God. Also, one doesn't need to believe in God in order to be good.

I was raised in a Catholic family and still follow the Catholic religion. The way that I was raised and still believe is that there is not just one right way to worship God. Everyone is different and should be allowed to praise the Lord in their own way. The important thing is that you believe in a higher power and that you love one another and are not filled with hate or judgment.

Indeed : the essence of faith is not in your words but in your deeds !

:rolleyes: