If punishing crime via torture is wrong for humans how can it be thought to be right for God?

Addendum:

Let me say that the only reason I posted it was to get an honest opinion to this seeming paradox of people condemning humans who torture and praising a God they feel sends people to be tortured. I also posted it because a defamation of God's character should be defended against by anyone who claims to be a Christian or anyone else who loves God. I consider the accusation that God created a place of torture to send the disobedient an insult to God. An idea which depicts him as sadistic. Now, to remain silent in the face of such a depiction is to cooperate with the defamation via silence. Therefore, when I posted this thread, I assumed that those who say they love God would take it as an opportunity to come out in his defense by disproving the accusation either scripturally or via logic.

Who said its right for God?

Hi,
I don't understand, either, "being right for God".

God calls us to Respect Human Life. Torture violates that. I might anticipate the next question: What is torture? Unfortunately we do not have God's laundry list of what is torture and what is not...

Some of us humans don't respect human life and torture it. We violate each other just because we have different beliefs.
That's not love nor religion to me.

who said its right for God?


Certain denominations say so. When I was a child there was a very religious woman who regularly visited us in order to encourage church attendance and would always vehemently warn that God would send us to be tortured forever in a lake of fire if we didn't. She was very graphic in her description telling us to imagine the pain of a burning finger but over our whole body and magnified hundreds of time with no mercy being shown for our eternal screams of agony and please for help.

Ok, she was a bad lady. I hope that didn't affect you too much. You forever doubt yourself when that is drilled into you.

Ok, she was a bad lady. I hope that didn't affect you too much. You forever doubt yourself when that is drilled into you.




She was sincere in her belief and honestly wanted to help us and to please God. Strangely, my parents were never cowed into attending church due to fear of the torture she described. Me? I had been taught differently by someone who understood the Bible in a different way from the way she understood it so her words didn't affect me at all. However, I agree with you that such a belief can have a profound effect. I imagine that some individuals might be terrified into a life dedicated to avoiding getting into the situation she described. What puzzles me about this is that such persons would never punish their own children or anyone else in the way they describe God as doing yet they feel perfectly comfortable worshipping a being that they believe does approve of it for those that dare dosobey him.

Sending someone to hell... Would that be a form of torture..

" Who falls in to that burning ring of Fire....Down, down, down....."


That's why it says in the Bible- Seek the Lord while He still can be found. (while one is still alive!)

Certain denominations say so. When I was a child there was a very religious woman who regularly visited us in order to encourage church attendance and would always vehemently warn that God would send us to be tortured forever in a lake of fire if we didn't. She was very graphic in her description telling us to imagine the pain of a burning finger but over our whole body and magnified hundreds of time with no mercy being shown for our eternal screams of agony and please for help.

As if...
God won't certainly punish you for not believing or following. God loves us as individuals regardless of our choices we make.

Sending someone to hell... Would that be a form of torture... ?

It depends on what you understand as "hell." If your understanding is that it is a place where people suffer either temporarily or for eternity, then its torture since torture is the infliction of pain. In any case, a definition helps:


Merriam Webster's Dictionary
Main Entry: 1tor·ture
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'to r-ch&r
Etymology: French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquere to twist; probably akin to Old High German drAhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle
1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure


BTW
There's this fellow who claims that he lowered a microphone into a deep crevasse and recorded the screams of agony emanating from hell. He placed the recording on the Internet. Weird!

" Who falls in to that burning ring of Fire....Down, down, down....."


That's why it says in the Bible- Seek the Lord while He still can be found. (while one is still alive!)


HI Pumpkin! Thanks for the feedback.
Since you seem to agree that God has a right to torture us if we misbehave, and since I am sure that you consider God righteous and righteous behavior should be imitated, then we would not be sinning if we imitated God and tortured our kids? Now my question to you is of course rhetorical since I'm sure that you will not recommend such a thing. Which brings us back to the quandary of my original question which is how do people who approve of God torturing sentient intelligent creatures harmonize their condemnation of humans who use torture as punishment? Just curious.

BTW
I am familiar with the biblical references used to support the God tortures concept. Not all Christians undertsand them the same way. I prefer the alternate understanding.

I've misbehaved yet never been tortured. I wonder what that means.

Ok, she was a bad lady. I hope that didn't affect you too much. You forever doubt yourself when that is drilled into you.


I agree with you as well, NeedKarma except for the saying she is or was bad. You see besides this particular belief, she led a Christian life. So how am I to tilt my opinion of her toward the negative based on one belief based on her misunderstanding? Would God destroy her because she misuderstands?

BTW
I thank everyone for the feedback to my post.

As if..........
God wont certainly punish you for not believing or following. God loves us as individuals regardless of our choices we make.


Hebrews 12:6 tells us that discipline or punishment per se is not wrong. We punish our children in order to help them be better persons and God does likewise. The problerm is that the eternal punishment with no way out concept has no such goal. It is described an infliction of pain for pain's sake and that is what offends many.

BTW

I recently saw the film the Birdman of Alcactraz and his punishment seemed to fall under this category since those doing the punishing seemed to be punishing without any hopes of improving him as a human being.

I'm sticking with the 'bad' label and here's why. I believe that religion is a personal thing. With her laying the 'fear of God" in such a way to innocent children she has the capacity, as a perceived authority figure, to instill some personality traits in the children that may not be desirable in the medium to long term.

That's my opinion. I certainly don't want my own children fearing every move they make.

I'm sticking with the 'bad' label and here's why. I believe that religion is a personal thing. With her laying the 'fear of God" in such a way to innocent children she has the capacity, as a perceived authority figure, to instill some personality traits in the children that may not be desirable in the medium to long term.

That's my opinion. I certainly don't want my own children fearing every move they make.


The reason that I choose to withhold judgement in respect to her status with God is that her behavior is based on ignorance. In my view God takes note of ignorance when classifying someone as either evil or good. Also, her faith in the Ransom sacrifice Jesus gave for our sins would still give her an imputed righteousness--correct?

I have no clue as to what "imputed righteousness" is, my concern is for the children so I guess I can't answer the question, sorry.

I have no clue as to what "imputed righteousness" is, my concern is for the children so I guess I can't answer the question, sorry.



I can now understand your viewpoint better since you are looking at the woman primarily from a sociological perspective and not one based on the religious precepts of Christianity. Actually, inculcating wrong ideas into the mind of a child is considered a form of child abuse and is punishable by law according to its severity. Perehaps a license should e required for parenthood. But I guess that's another subject.


About imputed righteousness:
Christians believe that we only gain a righteous status before God based on Jesus having died for our sins. So when we sin, we are forgiven in his name and can be looked upon as righteous in his name. In short, our status before God is not earned it is a free gift.

Starman-

Something got lost in the translation. I was only responding to PHILLYSTEAK & CHEESE'S post prior to mine. That's the only post(his) that actually could answer your question I think.
But I was referring to Hell only and not THIS LIFE.

I do not believe that God "punishes" any that love Him. He may correct us so that we learn a better way to do some things. And from troubles He gives us wisdom and peace regarding their outcomes. As for anything" worse", I don't believe that God is "their" maker.

Starman-

Something got lost in the translation. I was only responding to PHILLYSTEAK & CHEESE'S post prior to mine. That's the only post(his) that actually could answer your question I think.
But I was referring to Hell only and not THIS LIFE.

I do not believe that God "punishes" any that love Him. He may correct us so that we learn a better way to do some things. And from troubles He gives us wisdom and peace regarding their outcomes. As for anything" worse", I don't believe that God is "their" maker.

Sorry about the misunderstanding and happy to know that your concept of God is a noble one.

The old woman was probably doing the best she could with what she had so forgive her and say a prayer for her:cool:

The old woman was probably doing the best she could with what she had so forgive her and say a prayer for her:cool:


So what do you have to say about the question itself?

I've misbehaved yet never been tortured. I wonder what that means.


It means nothing since the doctrine we are talking about is in reference to those who die first.

I have a hard time understanding the question to be honest, but I do suspect that God does what He does regardless if we understand it or not. God does not answer to us and its sort of what my dad use to tell us "Do as I say , not as I do!":cool: ;)

I have a hard time understanding the question to be honest, but I do suspect that God does what He does regardless if we understand it or not. God does not answer to us and its sorta what my dad use to tell us "Do as I say , not as I do!":cool: ;)

Philisophically, the question falls under trhe category of ethics, which as I am sure you know, deals with issues of right and wrong. My question requests an explanation of the logic of those who don't torture and yet worship a god who tortures. I can't seem to figure it out since it seems illogical to me so I ask.

Have you proven the statement that God tortures?

Have you proven the statement that God tortures?

The proving is for those who say he does. I don't.

Oh I see, that's why your getting so few responses.

Oh I see, that's why your getting so few responses.


You completely destroyed me with that comment. I'll get my samurai sword and commit sepuco. Oh the shame!

LOL

BTW
I have posted similar questions on other forums and have gotten many responses.
Members of each forum have their own unique preferences and backgrounds. You for example seem to be more interested in heckling and trying to get a rise than in adding anything valuable to the discussion. Which of course is OK though a bit dissapointing.

Well I've reviewed my postings is this thread and I see no heckling nor attempst to get a rise. On the other hand, now that you mention it, your initial question that started this thread (stating thatGod punishes via torture) certainly can be seen as "trying to get a rise". What do you think?

To 31 pumpkin-Sorry to hit a sore point ,my comment was not meant to!

Well I've reviewed my postings is this thread and I see no heckling nor attempst to get a rise. On the other hand, now that you mention it, your initial question that started this thread (stating thatGod punishes via torture) certainly can be seen as "trying to get a rise". What do you think?


All my comments prior to your remarks clearly show that I am not accusing God of torture but you choose to ignore. When someone misrepresents another persons viewpoint, "strawman fallacy" though it has been stated clearly and repeatedly it's only natural that the person being misrepresented suspect that the person doing the misrepresenting is trying to get a rise.
Your command of English is normal and so seems to be your intelligence.
So I can't blame your misrepresentation of what I am sayng on that.

BTW

The word "Can" which begins the question is used to place the question within the hypothetical.

Can you go up and down simultaneously?
Can you be thin and fat simultaneously?
Can a righteous man be totally evil?

Anyone reading any of these and accusing the asker of making a statement in favor of one or the other issue would either be retarded or else highly deficient in understanding basic English. Something that I notice you are not.

Sorry mate, your subject question is a posit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posit), the "can" does not save you in this case.

Your ad hominem attack (I may be "retarded") shows that you have nothing left to offer but to attack the messenger and not the message.

Sorry mate, your subject question is a posit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posit), the "can" does not save you in this case.

Your ad hominem attack (I may be "retarded") shows that you have nothing left to offer but to attack the messenger and not the message.



Again!
I did not call you retarded. Are you reading what I write or just skimming?
As for the question, a question doesn't posit a statement does. Of course that doesn't prevent the reader from assuming insinuations or indirects which in this case is what you have done--assume. Neither does it explain your ignoring all my comments which clearly condemn torture. Please read what a person writes before assuming.

The old woman was probably doing the best she could with what she had so forgive her and say a prayer for her:cool:



Daddy... daddy wasn't there... to take him to the fair!

:D :D :D

What could that mean?:cool:

Quote Taliniman- "like my father who said-do as I say- not as I do -------

It means YOU'RE an OLD MAN and you probably take after your father who couldn't shut his mouth so he called women over 40, including your MOTHER... Old Women!!
:(

I've already apologized for the misunderstanding, I meant no malice or disrespect:cool:

Certain denominations say so. When I was a child there was a very religious woman who regularly visited us in order to encourage church attendance and would always vehemently warn that God would send us to be tortured forever in a lake of fire if we didn't. She was very graphic in her description telling us to imagine the pain of a burning finger but over our whole body and magnified hundreds of time with no mercy being shown for our eternal screams of agony and please for help.


... and you believe her?



M:)RGANITE

... and you believe her?



M:)RGANITE

I will assume you are making a joke.

BTW
Please read the info I added to the original question.

" Who falls in to that burning ring of Fire....Down, down, down....."


That's why it says in the Bible- Seek the Lord while He still can be found. (while one is still alive!)


Er... I hesitate to say this, but Rev. John R Cash was not singing about Hell, he was singing about lurve! If you have never been in lurve you will not undertand.



M:DRGANITE

Look who's in a critical mood today!

If you didn't get the humor of it . Oh well! And no, poor me I only have a 2 yr. college degree, so no I have no clue what lurve is. I didn't like J.Cash much anyway.

I preferred good old soft rock like Dincan Duncan by Paul Simon or Our Spirits in the Material World by Sting or the Police.

Anyway, it's how you use that education. Use your talents I think! That's in the Bible. I don't think lurve is.

You are probably more aware of Tina Turner's "What's lurve got to do with it"?

Johnny Cash's song begins, "Lurve is a burning thing... "

Miss the humour?

M:(RGANITE

Can I help it if your singer can't pronounce love right?

And do you mean, "get the humor?" Saying " MISS the humor?" implies that I never got it in the first place.


:D

Ok, I'll tell you what I believe to be true. First, God cannot dwell with any unclean thing. He will not be in the presence of anything unperfect. He does not create anything evil, nothing evil can come from Him. He has given us all the freedom of choice. We are all responsible for our own actions only.

This brings me to my second point. God has not created a place of torture to send people. It is our own actions that gets us to where we are going in the end. He doesn't "send" us anywhere. It's like our own children. There are consequences to everything they do, as there are consequences with everything that we do. Therefore it is ultimately up to us. I think we will only be judged according to what we actually know to be right or wrong. If a person doesn't know then it is not fair of God to judge them on that, and I don't think He would.

Third, God did not create hell (or whatever you want to call it). I think whatever the place is was created when Satan was cast out with his followers. I don't believe in a hell exactly like with burning fires or anything. I do believe there is more than the two options, heaven or hell. Hell might be seeing what you could have had. Now that would be torture, having known better while on earth and choosing not to do better, then having to answer for it. I believe that we all have choices and we will end up where we truly belong. I think it will be very black and white, wrong is wrong and right is right. If you know it, you have to answer for it. For all of the inbetweens, they will be clear and only God and Jesus will be able to judge that. Whew. Thank goodness God is kind, gentle, merciful, loving and forgiving.

We will create our own future, even the eternal one.

Can I help it if your singer can't pronounce love right?

And do you mean, "get the humor?" Saying " MISS the humor?" implies that I never got it in the first place.


:D

Yes. You didn't get it!


M:pRGANITE

Yes. You didn't get it!


M:pRGANITE




Oh yeah? Well it was me who posted the joke in the 1st place!

But it doesn't matter. I'll forgive you for that!!

:p

Ok, I'll tell you what I believe to be true. First, God cannot dwell with any unclean thing. He will not be in the presence of anything unperfect. He does not create anything evil, nothing evil can come from Him. He has given us all the freedom of choice. We are all responsible for our own actions only.

This brings me to my second point. God has not created a place of torture to send people. It is our own actions that gets us to where we are going in the end. He doesn't "send" us anywhere. It's like our own children. There are consequences to everything they do, as there are consequences with everything that we do. Therefore it is ultimately up to us. I think we will only be judged according to what we actually know to be right or wrong. If a person doesn't know then it is not fair of God to judge them on that, and I don't think He would.

Third, God did not create hell (or whatever you want to call it). I think whatever the place is was created when Satan was cast out with his followers. I don't believe in a hell exactly like with burning fires or anything. I do believe there is more than the two options, heaven or hell. Hell might be seeing what you could have had. Now that would be torture, having known better while on earth and choosing not to do better, then having to answer for it. I believe that we all have choices and we will end up where we truly belong. I think it will be very black and white, wrong is wrong and right is right. If you know it, you have to answer for it. For all of the inbetweens, they will be clear and only God and Jesus will be able to judge that. Whew. Thank goodness God is kind, gentle, merciful, loving and forgiving.

We will create our own future, even the eternal one.

I agree that what a man is sowing that too he shall reap as Jesus said.
My quandary is concerning those mentalities that glibly say God condemns people to be tortured forever and then turn around and say torture is immoral.

Now, the Greeks had no such problems since their gods went about behaving in immoral ways and they imitated them. Warfare, rape, envy, murder, theft, were all part of their gods' behavior and was accepted with no problem whatsoever. The problem emerges among certain groups of Christians who claim that God is just in condemning humans to eternal torture while simultaneously claiming that torture is a heinous crime if humans do it. That is the crux of the matter I am seeking an answer to.

As for creating a place for torture, if indeed such a place exists, it would have to be with God's consent. Otherwise we would have to say that God is not responsible any afterlife experience experienced by his intelligent sentient creatures-something that is completely alien to the Bible and Christianity.

Unfortunately I cannot comment on those certain groups of Christians you are talking about. I have know idea how they justify their beliefs.

I am not saying that God is not responsible for us after this life here on earth. To the extent of his consent in allowing us to be tortured or live with our consequences, I believe that He has told us what He expects of us. I believe He will give us every opportunity to right our wrongs. When we have full knowledge and choose to repent or not, is when judgement comes. If He did not allow us to live with our consequences, well, He would be a liar. He must do as He says or how could anyone have any faith in anything He said. He is bound to his word.

Back to your question. My apologies for veering so far off topic. I really don't know how what's good for God would not be good for us. He is the ultimate example. I too would be interested to hear how people justify this. I don't know of a time when the God I believe in has ever tortured anyone. I only believe in one God. No, pardon me, I only worship one God.

Unfortunately I cannot comment on those certain groups of Christians you are talking about. I have know idea how they justify their beliefs.

I am not saying that God is not responsible for us after this life here on earth. To the extent of his consent in allowing us to be tortured or live with our consequences, I believe that He has told us what He expects of us. I believe He will give us every opportunity to right our wrongs. When we have full knowledge and choose to repent or not, is when judgement comes. If He did not allow us to live with our consequences, well, He would be a liar. He must do as He says or how could anyone have any faith in anything He said. He is bound to his word.

Back to your question. My apologies for veering so far off topic. I really don't know how what's good for God would not be good for us. He is the ultimate example. I too would be interested to hear how people justify this. I don't know of a time when the God I believe in has ever tortured anyone. I only believe in one God. No, pardon me, I only worship one God.




God is the universal judge and determines what the consequence of sin is. Adam was told that if he sinned he would die. Adam knew the meaning of death since he was told he would return to his former condition of being dust. Since Adam knew nothing and felt nothing in the condition of dust, he expected that to be his punishment if he sinned. At no time did God tell Adam that he would wind up at the mercy of demons who would be allowed to torture him for eternity. If indeed God had intended such a consequence for sin, then fairness required that Adam be informed. But he wasn't informed because God had not set eternal torture up as a consequence for sin nor allowed anyone else to set up a torture chamber to torture sinners. That idea was introduced later and echoes the lie that Satan told Eve, that she would not die.

BTW
Would you tell your kids that they will be punished in a certain way if they disobey and then later have them realize that you had something much worse in mind?

If punishing crime via torture is wrong for humans how can it be thought to be right for God?

Addendum:

Let me say that the only reason I posted it was to get an honest opinion to this seeming paradox of people condemning humans who torture and praising a God they feel sends people to be tortured. I also posted it because a defamation of God's character should be defended against by anyone who claims to be a Christian or anyone else who loves God. I consider the accusation that God created a place of torture to send the disobedient an insult to God. An idea which depicts him as sadistic. Now, to remain silent in the face of such a depiction is to cooperate with the defamation via silence. Therefore, when I posted this thread, I assumed that those who say they love God would take it as an opportunity to come out in his defense by disproving the accusation either scripturally or via logic.


That seems like a bit of a trap. If you had explained it that way in your original question you would probably have had different response because experts would understand where you were going with the question.

Any perecived paradox might disappear if you consider that God is just and, therefore, cannot act in any manner that is unjust.

I'd be interested in hearing your idea about what happens to the wilfully disobedient in the eternities.



M:)RGANITE

That seems like a bit of a trap. If you had explained it that way in your original question you would probably have had different response because experts would understand where you were going with the question.

Any perecived paradox might disappear if you consider that God is just and, therefore, cannot act in any manner that is unjust.

I'd be interested in hearing your idea about what happens to the wilfully disobedient in the eternities.





M:)RGANITE

A trap leading to my own frustration as I sought to clarify what I really meant? LOL

Believe me, if I had known that the original way I expressed the question was going to lead to a misunderstanding of what I meant I would have phrased it differently. But once the misunderstanding took root it seemed virtually impossible to clarify for some mysterious reason .

About the truly willfully disobedient, which can only be determined by God and not man, God said that the punishment is nonexistence, the returning to dust.


BTW

There is no way that I can consider eternal torture as just regardless of who is commanding it to be done. Are you familiar with the reason of why torture is considered a crime?



Torture and Punishment in Elizabethan Times.
By Erin Lestikow, Katie O'Fallon, and Lori Patterson... Torture is the use of physical or mental pain, often to obtain information, to punish a person... The harsher the crime committed, the more horrendous the punishment during this time...
Torture and Punishment (http://www.springfield.k12.il.us/schools/springfield/eliz/Torturepun.html)


Denounce Torture
... Every act of torture is a crime under international law. If torture is committed in an armed conflict... pertain to questions such as "Is torture a crime in the US...
Denounce Torture (http://www.amnestyusa.org/stoptorture/law.html)

Hi
I am a christain and when you mean how can it be right for God to torture while it is wrong for humans, I don't know in the bible if God comanded anyone to do such act? So if you know any please shed a light. But you may mean how God commands people to be killed i.e the cananities then the response would be that God is not under any obligation to extend life to anyone whether adults or children. It is His progative if he wants and sees fit that someone should lose their life then he is within his right to take that life. As he is the giver of life and thus that life belong to Him and he can take whenever He wants.