HI - brand new to the site. I have an approximately 38 year old house in south Florida. My walk-in shower in my master bath is leaking. It is tiled and was obviously built to fit - it is an odd size and the drain is not in the center. I have cut into a wall that lets me see the method of construction and it appears it was built within a 1'x8" wood box and they used some sort of paper - looks likes roofing felt. My question is : would it be easier to try and rebuild it using a vinyl liner or move the drain ( it is in concrete ) and try to adapt a ready-made size shower pan ? Thanks for any input.

Hey Bill:

Are you suggesting that the shower is completely gone.. Are you saying that you are sure you want to rip this unit out and try to install a new unit?

If so, then a prefab floor is certainly the easiest and most affordable way to go. Check out this site for more information on prefab shower floors: Swanstone (http://www.swanstone.com)

You would just need to move the drain to match up to new floor and frame as needed.

If custom is more to your liking and you want to maximize your shower size then a custom vinyl shower pan is the way to go... but this is much more difficult to pull off.

Check out this link to learn more about installing a custom shower system: How to Build a Shower Pan (http://www.hoagy.org/house/HowToBuildShowerPan.html)

If you are a handy guy... we will be glad to help you through the phases of custom job. If only slightly handy you should seriously consider the PREFAB...

Let me know what you think here...

MARK

HI MP2008 - I appreciate the quick response. I would say I am pretty handy and am a pretty quick learner - even though I have no experience with this particular type of repair. I did see on the Swanstone website that they have a pre-formed shower pan that is close to the size of my shower - like I said - it would need a little tweaking of the walls to make it fit ( the Swanstone pan is slightly smaller ). I would have to go into the slab and move the p-trap and pipe ( the pipes are cast iron ) so this would be another issue. I'm guessing a complete tear-out and some sort of replacement is in order - it's leaking when we use the shower. I put a test-plug in the drain and put about 4 gallons of water in the shower - it leaked immediately. I had a company ( they come in and cover over all the walls and floor - replace the door - replace the water valve ) - the only problem is that their BASIC package is $4800 - I don't think so ! I would be willing to try building my own pan - just not sure what the best thing is to do. Thanks again for your input and appreciate all replies.

I'd go with Mark's suggestion. I install Swanstone almost exclusively. You can build out your walls by installing Hardibacker board and tile, that will add about an inch. I can't see your shower but I would not try to save a 38 year old mud pan. Speedball1 is a retired plumber in Sarasota, maybe he'd come over and take a look for a few cold ones.

Kind of what I have been thinking. Would you use the Swanstone wall panels or would I be OK tilling the walls ? And does anyone have any tips / advice / suggestions for moving the drain ? I think I have a basic idea how to do it - but would appreciate any input.

They make a good product but I never use their panels. I do a great tile wall and most folks have been very happy with the finished tile look and service. If you have never tiled a shower before you can hire a pro or we can walk you through the steps. It is not rocket science.

Hey Bill:

Moving the drain should not be too hard depending on just how far the drain has to be moved.

If the drain only has to be moved let's say 6 inches or so (depending on how deep pipe and p-trap are) you may be able to get away with opening up the floor about 2 feet wide, digging out the dirt, and then cutting the cast iron riser using a diamond blade in an angle grinder and then attaching a shielded clamp (see picture) onto it to transition over to 2-2" PVC 45 degree fittings and simply OFFSET into alignment with the new location of the drain (you cannot use 90 degree fittings to offset).

If the distance to be moved is much more than 6 inches or the pipe/p-trap isn't deep enough then you will need to dig down to the p-trap and cut out the p-trap using the grinder, attach the shielded clmap onto the pipe and run new pvc pipe and p-trap over to new drain so it is directly below the new drain location (pvc out of trap to new drain).

Then you would backfill, patch the concrete (put coffee can around the pipe while cementing) and then install a new PREFAB shower pan with drain assembly in a bed of mortar, level it and you should be all set with pan (unless going custom..then will need to discuss this more with you). I leave my pipe long and then once the pan is set I cut it down using an inside cutting tool (see last picture.. sold at home depot or lowes).

Then you install hardibacker cement board on walls with alkali-resistant screws hardibacker sells (install cement board so it is 1/4" above pan and then silicone between pan and cement board, then you fiberglass tape (alkali-resistant) and seal all joints with thinset mortar and follow instructions as outlined at the following link (scroll down to walls):

James Hardie: HardieBacker 500 backerboard (http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner/products_backerboard_halfInch.shtml?openTab=jsnavL ink4)

Then you tile the walls, etc...

Let us know if/when you need more info. Here... me and Bob (and others here... ;) ) have some pretty extensive experience with these jobs!

MARK

HI MARK - I really appreciate that answer. From the measurements I have been able to take ( with everything in place ), it looks like I need to move the riser pipe over only about a few inches. If I measure from the floor of the shower to the water level in the trap, it is about 8 - 8.5 inches ( and after allowing for a slight build-up of the shower floor ), which seems to be only about 0.5 inch, that should mean the drain pipe itself would be about 8 inches or so deep. I guess the bottom of the p-trap would be about a few inches below that. Would that leave me enough room to use double 45 degree fittings and offset the riser as you suggest ? Thanks again for the input.

Hi Bill...

It's close... but I think it will work here. Will need to cut the cast riser 1" off the p-trap, then install the shielded clamp, then install a STREET 45 degree PVC fitting (see pic. #1) into the clamp and measure from there to the next regular 45 (see pic. #2) so it lines up under the hole in shower base. Then stub up long as I said in last post, etc...

Of course, can't be 100% sure, but if only offsetting 3" or less this should work fine.. ;)

Keep us posted as you go..ok?

And as you noticed, we come and go regularly so just post any info. You want us to get to and we will get back pretty fast (I post early AM and most evenings around 6:00 pm and again around 9:00 pmish... east coast time).

Good day...

MARK

HI MARK - - - Thanks for the response - I really appreciate it. Your input has been really helpful. I have company coming in this weekend for a couple of days, so I don't want to down the shower in the next couple of days - probably will start next week. Will be able to tell more after removing shower floor and getting exact measurements - but I would assume after your last response that if any of the measurements are less than what I have estimated up to now - I may not have enough depth to use the offset fittings and will need to move the whole trap. I'm guessing I would also be advised to actually have the pre-formed pan here in my possession before moving the drain. I would assume that would allow me to make for a more accurate positioning of the riser. Thanks again.

Your assumptions are correct... ;)

Keep us posted.

HI again. Been thinking about this more. I think I'm either going to go with the pre-formed Swanstone pan ( and move the drain ) and then tile the walls OR build the whole thing from scratch ( and hopefully expand my DIY resume in the process ). I'm guessing that building it myself would be the most cost effective ( I.E. cheapest ) but mostly labor intensive. Does that sound about right ?

You will cut down you costs significantly every time you attempt to do any repair yourself. This applies to building your shower pan. If you need help, come back to this forum and we will help you with details...

Hey Bill...

Actually, installing a pre-fab pan is cheapest in terms of cost (usually under $200.00), and labor (much less labor than pre-pitching a membrane, installing a membrane, lugging, mixing, and pouring 6-10 bags of concrete). Never mind the fact that all this costs money (membrane/mortar mix, floor tile, grout, etc usually over $200.00 right there PLUS all the labor getting materials and installing them! ) and that the custom floor can leak if installed incorrectly (can be tricky and very time consuming to build and test the pan then lay the tile and grout the tile).

Then you can cement board the walls and tile away... either way you do it.

Just wanted you to be clear why we recommend those pre-fabs... much less work, time and money! 'Course, not quite as sexy as having a custom tile floor either... ;) Up to you... hmmm..?

Keep us posted...

Thanks... MARK

HI Mark and All -

I went today and checked the measurements on two 45 degree fittings and it looks like you are right : it will be extremely close. From what I could see : if you butted the 2 fittings against each other, it measures 8" from top to bottom and looks like it would create an offset of 3". Like I said - extremely close to my pre-tearing out the shower measurements. If I get it out and it won't work - I would have to dig more up and move the p-trap. If I do that, I would probably just replace it all the way to the stack. It's probably only about 3 - 4 feet anyway.

Hi Bill:

Don't forget about the STREET 45 degree fitting I posted earlier... that will allow another 3/4" in height.

Thanks for update. Good luck on removal!

MARK

HEY Mark - - -

Thanks for the reminder - I did use a regular 45 and a street 45 when measuring. But I have another question. I don't know if I should ask it as another post or continue this one - but here goes. In my travels around the internet, I have seen products that help you create a - quote / unquote - "fool-proof" slope while building a shower floor. Hopefully this will make sense. What you use are basically pre-sloped sticks that you put down on your base floor and then put the deck mud over them. You put them from the drain out to the walls - no more than 2 feet apart at the walls. Then - when you screed over them you have created a proper slope. Apparently you can also use this to allow for a slightly off-center drain. There is company called DIX that carries these and calls them a Quick-Pitch kit. Their website is Shower Floor Liner | Shower Liner | Shower Pan | Ceramic Tile Showers (http://www.dixsystems.com) Has anyone ever heard / used this method ? It kind of makes sense to me - but all of you would know better. Thanks again for all the answers so far.

Hi Bill...

I have seen these and have heard that people are using these with success. I have never used them.

You still need to pre-pitch the floor 3/4" to 1" max. at walls to nothing at center under the membrane BEFORE applying the membrane and then you would apply the quick-pitch kit after applying the membrane.

Also, it is important to put small stones at the drain itself to cover the WEEP HOLES in the drain prior to pouring mud mix. Here, the pre-pitched floor and then the membrane direct any water that gets to membrane toward the drain and finally down the drain through the weep holes. If these holes get plugged or the membrane is not pitched then water pools and collects and mold can begin to grow and mud begins to break down.

Here is quick decription of how I do things...

I do all that has been stated above, including test my pan overnight (see previous post) and then I take the drain/strainer and duct tape over the top of it. Then I take my drain strainer and spin it up to max. height... then I lower it back down 3/4" - 1" max.. Now I take a 2' or 4' level and set it onto the drain/strainer and find a pitch I like to farthest wall... say 1/4" per foot... and mark that onto the membrane with a permanent marker. Then I transfer this mark as level line all around the membrane. This is my level line for the floor perimeter (drain location matters little with this technique).

Then I install the mud mix (should be consistency that creates a dry ball in hand) and use a screed and wood float (sold at any home improvement store) to establish the basic level perimeter and then fill in the rest of pan with mud mix and screed the floor from the perimeter to the drain/strainer... EFFECTIVELY USING THE DRAIN/STRAINER AS MY QUICK-PITCH KIT... Then I use the wood float to smooth out any rough spots and floor is finished.

NOW... right away I take the drain/strainer and begin to loosen it (use screwdrivers to puncture hole in duct tape) so that it rises above the floor to the thickness of my tile PLUS about an 1/8" to allow for thinset adhesive thickness and then let the floor dry overnight.

Review the first link I posted above (how to build custom shower) and then review info. Posted here and then decide if you are going old fashioned route... ;) or the new fangled quick-pitch kit way or even if going back to idea of a pre-fab floor.

All options are good options here!

Let me know what you think...

MARK

Hey Mark - - -

Thanks again for the reply. I think what my plan of attack for right now is to decide what kind of tile and then price out my material list for building my own shower pan should I decide to go that route. My problem is that the pre-made shower pan by Swanstone ( in a 34" by 54" ) that my wife and I would prefer is in the $550 - $600 range. I think I could probably find a tile and build it myself quite a bit less expensively than that. Either way - my plan is to tile the walls anyway. My only concern is that a project that looks semi-easy ( in print or on video ) usually turns out to be a bit more difficult when actually doing it. A few questions though :
1. What would be the largest size tiles you would recommend for the floor ?
2. Do you have a preference as to brand of shower drain - I have looked at a few
Different ones and they all seem similar but with minor differences ?
3. The curb seems to be the hardest thing to water-proof. What method do you
Prefer to build and install the membrane around the curb and sealing it ?
Once again, I have seen quite a few different methods to do this.
4. I have also seen special inside and outside corners to help seal the membrane.
Have you used these and would you recommend them or are they not necessary
In your opinion ?
That's what I can think of right now - once again - I appreciate all of your quick and
Helpful replies. Oh - I just thought of something else : I will probably have to dig up my drain anyway because I think it is all cast iron. I think I will probably have to change it over to PVC to connect it to the new drain. Any thoughts on that ? Thanks again.

Hey hey...

1) I recommend tiles no larger than 3"... mosaics on sheet work best for laying down floor in shower.

2) No preference for shower strainer except that it will be easier for you to tile around a SQUARE strainer so look for drains with square strainer.

3 and 4) The curb is not easy... use 3-2"x4" and wrap membrane over that... at corners will need to cut round membrane patches to seal the corners. Then, recently (I used to use wire mesh and mud), I started to use concrete board with a few screws to attach the concrete board through membrane to wood, but then I wrap the concrete board with a polyester tape and roll on a waterproof membrane (paints on) over that to seal all edges associated with the threshold and the floor. Then I paint/roll the water proof membrane over the cement board walls and seal the edges using that polyester tape supplied with the waterproofing and I have a water tight job everywhere...

Check out this link for more info.:

http://www.nacproducts.com/documents/PDS-SubSeal-2008.03.pdf

http://www.crommelin.com.au/pdfs/showerwpmembrane.pdf

Some people are actually using this as the entire shower pan itself and if installed per manufacturer's recommendations the manufacturer guarantees this stuff...Hmmmmm (but I can't recommend it... as contractor I simply need better assurrances). I will find the name of the stuff that I have been using and post that for you later. The stuff I use adds another $100.00 to the job but guarantees no issues at curbs/edges or seats (if adding one)!

Finally, you would dig down enough to cut the cast pipe with an angle grinder with a diamond blade and then you would install a SHIELDED CLAMP (see picture) to transition over to PVC pipe.

Let me know what you think...

MARK

Hey Mark - - -

I appreciate the quick response. Interesting what you said about the square drain strainer - so obvious but never really thought of it that way. No question - should be a lot easier to tile around a square srtrainer. And thanks for the info on the curb. On the corners - do you just cut your own patches or do you use the ready-made ones ? I suspect you ( as someone who does this all the time - probably makes their own ) and do you just cut them from from the same membrane. Any links or info on the way to cut them properly ? This area would be one of my biggest concerns. And what do you seal them down with ? Cement ? Thanks again.

Yes... you cut them yourself (4-6 inch circles) and then use a membrane liner cement to install patches. The cement is like a contact cement in which you apply to both surfaces and let dry for 2 minutes then press together to seal.

You also use this liner cement to close all corners that you fold to make the pan... be careful not to fold corners so water can leak out from behind... make so fold climbs the wall not runs along the floor.

Back at you!

I will just jump in with my advice...

You buy inside and outside corner patches with the liner. Also, they sell specific glue for PVC liner installation.

As far as the drain goes: you can always get regular round drain. Then you buy square frame for it that fist over it.

Hey Mark - - -

Just wondered if you get a chance, could you post the name of the stuff you use to seal the edges/curbs or seats. I would be less concerned about adding another $100 just so I get everything sealed correctly. I saw somewhere a product called BITUTHENE : it looks to me to be like a sheet of membrane with adhesive attached to it ( something like you use on a roof - under the shingles ). It might be made by a company called GRACE ( which I know makes roofing products and might possibly make this or other things. Have you ever heard of this ? Also, do you ( or anyone else ) have a preference for a brand of membrane liner ? As always, I appreciate the quick responses - I'm a believer in mucho research before starting a project. BILL

Hey Milo - - -

Didn't mean to ignore your advice. That was rude of me. Believe me, I appreciate any and all advice / help I can get.

Hi Bill...

Usually just want to purchase the pvc liner available at home depot OR at your local plumbing supply house. They will also have the pvc liner cement there as well. I want you to stick with shower membrane specifically.. ok?

I've been using laticretes WATERTIGHT floor and wall waterproofing membrane (see picture below) available in 1, 3, and 5 gallon buckets. I purchase this stuff from my local tile supply company but home depot also sells a REDGUARD waterproofing membrane... check that one out, usually near the cement board... ;)

Click on this link for more info. On laticrete's watertight:

AOL Image Search results for "laticrete watertight floor and wall waterproofing membrane" (http://search.aol.com/aol/imageDetails?invocationType=imageDetails&query=laticrete+watertight+floor+and+wall+waterpro ofing+membrane&img=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.laticrete.com%2FPortals%2F0%2 FprodIMG%2FWatertightFlnWall.jpg&site=&host=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.laticrete.com%2FContractors% 2FProducts%2FAntiFractureSystem%2Ftabid%2F210%2FDe fault.aspx&width=77&height=90&thumbUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fimages-partners-tbn.google.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AQN1Tio-96dN0OM%3Awww.laticrete.com%2FPortals%2F0%2FprodIM G%2FWatertightFlnWall.jpg&b=image%3FinvocationType%3Dtopsearchbox.imageDetai ls%26imgsz%3D%26query%3Dlaticrete%2Bwatertight%2Bf loor%2Band%2Bwall%2Bwaterproofing%2Bmembrane)

Click on this link for redguard's stuff:

AOL Image Search results for "redgard floor and wall waterproofing membrane" (http://search.aol.com/aol/imageDetails?invocationType=imageDetails&query=redgard+floor+and+wall+waterproofing+membran e&img=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tilemagonline.com%2FTILE%2FHo me%2FImages%2FTILE0307-CrackSup-img6.jpg&site=&host=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tilemagonline.com%2FCDA%2FAr chives%2FBNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000082341&width=93&height=66&thumbUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fimages-partners-tbn.google.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AKSR8Cx-9z2qE-M%3Awww.tilemagonline.com%2FTILE%2FHome%2FImages%2 FTILE0307-CrackSup-img6.jpg&b=image%3FinvocationType%3Dtopsearchbox.image%26im gsz%3D%26query%3Dredgard%2Bfloor%2Band%2Bwall%2Bwa terproofing%2Bmembrane)

I think speedball1 likes a blue compaseal membrane but I could not find any info. On this brand!

Let me know...

MARK

HI Mark and everyone - - -

I have managed to think of another question. Is there any way to determine / estimate how many bags of portland cement and sand I would need for a shower floor with measurements of 57" by 34" ? I know I need a mix of 3 or 4 parts of sand to 1 part portland cement but don't really have any idea how many bags of each I might need. I only ask this question so I don't haul too many more bags home than I need ( or not enough ). I am trying to put together my list of supplies and even a ballpark figure would help. As always, I am extremely appreciative for your help and advice.

Hey Bill...

This being your first attempt at mixing floor I would recommend that you go to your local tile distributer and purchase a premix thick floor mud....that way you have a consistent strength throughout floor.

This stuff is great. They will be able to estimate number of bags needed for your project, too (probably 4-6 bags if 80lb. Bags... depends on how thick floor will be).

Good luck!

Hey Mark and All - - -

In my research, I have heard mention of having to notch the wall studs for the liner to fit properly. Some people say this is necessary and some don't mention it at all. What do you think ?

Hi Bill... I don't ever notch my studs... not that it will hurt anything I just don't think it is necessary.

I know why they do it, but if folds in liner are done right and kept tight to wall... when cement board is attached it pulls all in tight (remember not to screw below the height of the threshold). If anything not quite plumb when finished then when you tape the seams you can float a little extra adhesive to straighten it out!

You would be amazed at how little imperfections don't get noticed when tile is set onto wall and grouted.

Again, up to you here... either way works out just fine!

AND just FYI... if you see the button next to my name turned green it means I am online and will get to you in 5 minutes or so (usually) so when you see the green light keep refreshing your screen and I am sure I will answer. I know when you pop online cause my profile tells me and I am usually answering your question when you pop out 'cause... I figure... you don't know about the green light!


Talk later...

MARK

.

Hey Mark - - -

Thanks for the green light info. I did not know that. And about the notching - that's actually kind of what I thought - just wanted some back-up. And also - do you recommend using 2" x 10 's or what to box in around the lower area of the shower ? And I'm guessing that these should be installed flush with the front face of the studs - and just toe-nailed to the stud. A lot of the pictures I have seen look like they have installed the blocking on the face of the studs. That doesn't make any sense. Wouldn't that make it stick out and prevent you having a smooth flat surface to mount the cement board. And do you think I need a vapor barrier under the cement board ?

Hi Bill...

YUP! 2"x10" are excellent choice for backing bottom and like you said, toe-nail to studs so wood is flush with studs.

A vapor barrier is important... either install plastic sheeting behind the concrete board or use the redguard waterproofing membrane OVER the cement board (after taping seams) which will not only act as a vapor barrier, but will also waterproof the cement board and the screw heads!

Keep me posted...

MARK

Hey All - - -

Another quick question. So far - the only pre-mix I have found is at HD and is made by Jamo and is called FLOOR MUD. It says it is a mix of portland cement and sand and chemical modifiers and is made for floating shower pans and other floor areas. It does not give a breakdown of how much cement to sand and does not say exactly what chemical modifiers are in it. I have also read that supposedly HD sells an item called SAND ( TOPPING ) MIX but have had no luck even finding this. Does anyone have any input or experience with the Jamo Floor Mud ?

Floor mud it is Bill... all I use for shower floors. The name of mine is different but it is a FLOOR MUD that also has chemical modifiers to strengthen the floor.

You DO NOT want the sand topping mix... floor would crack open in just weeks!

Keep em' coming...

MARK

HI Mark and All - - -

Seems like all we do this time of year is dodge hurricanes. Haven't had time to really do anything other than continued research. One thing I did do was to build myself a box from scraps ( about 36" x 20" x 6" high ). I cut a small hole in the center to act as a drain and I got a bag of the floor mud and did a little experiment. I marked a level line all the way around on the inside about 1/2" high. I put the mud in and screed it and actually ended up with about a 5/8" slope to the center ( measured with a small level ). I did this just to see if I would be OK. It seems to have worked well, but here is my question. When I was packing the mud, water seemed to rise to the surface. I think it might be called bleed water. After I finished screeding and smoothing the mud and letting it set for a while, it was gone ( I would guess it soaked back in ). I am now letting it sit overnight ( I just did it this afternoon ). It seems pretty solid. My question : was that normal or did I do something wrong ? Just want to make sure before I continue. THANKS

HI again - - -

I forgot - I think I may have mixed too much water in the mud. The directions on the bag
(50 lb. bag ) said to use 1 and 1/4 gallons. It seemed like too much but I followed the directions figuring if it was too much, I could just use less the next time.

Use a little less H20 to start Bill... see what you think from there.

One trick when floating shower mud floor is to use a WOOD FLOAT to work the mud and only at the very end might you use a metal float/trowel. Home depot sells these for like 6 dollars... just like a regular trowel but made of wood and has regular handle on it. You may need to wet it periodically by dipping in bucket... but don't overdo.

Metal has tendency to pull water to the surface of the concrete and should only be used at the very end to finish/smooth the surface.

Another trick or two for you....

1) Stick a rag down the drain to keep concrete that may fall in from filling the ptrap (tie string onto it and just be sure to remove later! ).

2) Use the strainer as a place to screed too... Here, you twist the drain to highest point and then lower it down about 1 inch. Then you take level and make a mark on the longest wall that represents 1/4" pitch per foot. Then you draw a level line all around the pan using a permanent marker. Now, tape over the strainer with duct tape (I put longer pieces over the strainer and then use a tool to press tape into perimeter of strainer so that it effectively cuts the tape on perimeter). Then you will add mud and work it in with wood float... then use 2 foot level or straight edge to screed from the wall markings to the drain strainer. The strainer and the marks on wall should make for consistent pitch at mud floor. After you are satisfied that you have floor you like remove the duct tape and spin the strainer up (can use two screwdrivers in strainer holes to grab and rotate unit) so it meets the tile you will be using PLUS 1/8" or so added height to account for thinset mortar... idea here is to bring the strainer up so when you finally tile with adhesive that your strainer is flush or slightly lower than the tile... BUT NOT HIGHER!!

Then remove the strainer screws and remove the rag...then pour 3 cups water into drain itself (keep sewer gasses out) and re-install the strainer and screws. At this time if there is a name on the strainer square it up to walls.

Double check all and floor should be set. Let me know if that made sense... ok?

MARK

HI again - - -

I will definitely get a wood float - I just used what I had around for my little experiment. Mainly it was just to see how hard the mud was to work with. So I guess that some bleed water is normal - like I said though, I was pretty sure I had added too much water. A question though : would too much water make the mud bed not as strong ? How smooth should the surface be after curing ? ( Sorry - 2 questions. ) And that all made perfect sense - thanks again for all the advice and encouragement.

BILL

Great...

Now.. and I should have made this clear at my last post... that mud needs to be pretty darn stiff... the way it was described to me is that you want the mud to form a baseball type shape when you take it up in your hand and squeeze it (it should remain as a ball)... any wetter and this will definitely adversly effect the strength of the floor... just like you were thinking!

Anyway, try another small batch to see what I am talking about... just mix a little and play with it until it forms that ball shape I mentioned.. that is what you want to work with. The first few times I did mud floors I worried throughout that all was too dry... it wasn't... that's my best explanation.

Let me know how you do.

Mark

Hey - - -

It's me again. I was checking on the website for the company that makes the floor mud I used for my little experiment, and according to the MSDS sheet for the mud, it contains about 37% sand and 12% portland cement and 1% lime. This would mean that there is only roughly about a 3 parts sand to 1 part cement mix plus the lime. From what I have read, a better mix is 4-5 parts sand to 1 part cement ( I think it makes it easier to work with ). Most of what I have read says a 3-1 mix is "too rich". I have also read that having lime in there will make it sticky and more difficult to work with. Do you think I would be advised to maybe add some sand to the mix or just scrap the floor mud mix and make my own ? Thanks

Hey bill... I would stick with the premix... just mix it so it is stiff like mentioned earlier.

You are right that lime will make this sticky and that is why you work this as dryer mix... ;)

3 to 1 or 4 to 1 ratios are both OK here (stronger at 3 to 1... but have used both ratios successfully over the years)... as long as subfloor is in good condition! It is only a shower floor and I don't want to play that down, but you have prepped properly... so you should be fine here.

Let me know when I can help.

HI Mark - - -

Thanks for the interest. Sorry, I haven't been here for awhile. Decided to put the shower on a slight hold for a while ( $$$ ) and install some flooring ( laminate ) I had already purchased for my dining room. I played around with my little experimental box I made some more ( I even bought a scrap piece of membrane from HD ) and put it in to practice my corner folding. I thought that went well but when I mixed the sand mix and put it over the membrane : I still had trouble getting it to screed to a level of success I was satisfied with. I'm still planning on playing around with it some more. But, another question. Do you have any experience with Schluter Kerdi products ? They seem to be all the rage and have a shower tray with the pre-slope already in place that I could use. With this system, I could basically just install the tray with thin-set and then cover it with Kerdi membrane
( floor and walls ). They say this create a totally waterproof shower. And then you just tile right over the Kerdi membrane. They even have a pre-formed curb. A kit ( includes the tray - the curb - the Kerdi membrane - inside and ouside corners - drain kit ) can be had for about $400 bux. Seems to include just about everything I would need ( but thinset ) and of course I would still need drywall and tile. Oh, they also say you just use regular 1/2 " drywall under their membrane. And, if you can believe it, you actually have a better shower ( totally water-proof ). Any thoughts ? Thanks again.

Hi Bill...

Schluter-kerdi products look great! I have seen them for awhile now and have thought of trying them myself but I don't have any experience with the system.

If you are looking for system that is more user friendly this may be the way to go... but go to a local TILE STORE and discuss it with them... see what they think and what they advise you to do.

Appreciate the update!