Well, I decided to open up a huge can of worms, but I hope that we can all have a rational discussion about this, because I really do want everyone's point of view.

Why do Christians base their beliefs on the bible? Why do they consider the bible to be Gods word?

The Bible was written by men, not God, not Jesus, but men. How do you explain all the contradictions in the bible? Do you really believe everything that the bible states, all the miracles, all the stories?

Why do people quote the bible and expect that to be taken as proof of Gods word?

I believe in God, but not the bible, I believe in God but not in Church. Isn't the belief of the bible and church putting you in the hands of man, not God?

I'm curious to know, so please respond, but lets be nice about it. I will admit now that no matter what you say about the validity of the bible, I will not ever accept it as the word of God, 10 years of Catholic school got that out of my system. I just want to know why Christians believe in a man written book, after all, man is not perfect, man is not infallible, so how can the bible be the God's honest truth?

Basically I believe the Bible because not only do Christians believe the Old Testament but the Jews also go by it and I believe the Jews are God's chosen people and the Bible was inspired by God. I also believe that many of the so called contradictions are not really contradictions but things man has not yet fully come to understand. Also many things are history, allegories, parables, and so forth and you have to take it in the proper context that it is meant. Also, there are things that were written in man's own words as an eyewitness account and it is fact that when you have different people witnessing the same event you are going to have stories that appear to conflict because each one sees and puts emphasis on what they see or consider important. For example, where it says that Judas hung from a tree and another says he went off a cliff it could have been he hung from a tree by a cliff and the branch broke. One choose to mention the cliff the other chose to mention the tree. I really don't care to discuss the so called 'contradictions' in general and would rather answer each one asked specifically.

Also want to add that there are many things mentioned in the Bible that man had no idea of back then. Science basically backs up much of what God already said.

Science and the Bible (http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml)

Science in the Bible (http://www.newtestamentchurch.org/html/Christian_Evidence/Science_in_the_Bible.htm)

Matthew Fontaine Maury 'discovered' underwater currents in the sea by a Bible verse.
Matthew Fontaine Maury In Profile Part 1 (http://www.crosswalk.com/1276483/print/)

And in fact there are not as many contradictions as people wish to assume, most are assumed for misunderstanding or taking things out of context and/or merely using today's english translations.

In fact the bible completes itself, with the OT being a more historical nature and the NT being eye witness testomony of what has ahppened

I do value and respect your point of view NoHelp, my problem is that the bible wasn't written by God, it was written by man. It's an old book and has been translated many times, perhaps that's why there are so many contradictions. Some even say that the translations where incorrect, basically guesses because no one spoke or understood the original language they were written in. That's what some people say, but it hasn't been proven so I won't say it's fact.

I do understand why there are so many contradictions, like you said, different people witnessing different events will speak of what they saw, everyone sees things differently, or focuses on different things when they see something happen. But that's sort of my point. The bible may have been inspired by God, I'm not entirely convinced by that, but it wasn't written by God, therefore it is not the actual "word of God" but the word of man.

You stated that you believe in the bible because so many other religions base their beliefs on the bible, but what if they're all wrong?

I will not stop believing in God, no matter what anyone says, but my beliefs are based on things I've experienced, not read. The bible and organized religion did not serve me well, in fact, I'm surprised that I still believe after everything I've experienced in that respect.

I do not begrudge anyone their right to religion or their belief, but I just wonder how so many people can base their beliefs on a book written by man, and worship in a church built by man, to be preached to by man.

If the bible is to be believed then Jesus preached on the streets, to anyone who was willing to listen, poor, rich, sick, healthy, criminals, prostitutes, everyone. Why, as human beings, have we built temples to worship him in? If Jesus was his son, which I do believe, then he had no such temple, he was but a poor carpenter. So why? When you go to Church, are you not hearing the word of man, spoken by man? Sorry, that's my belief, and I may be wrong, if I am, then hopefully I am correct that God is forgiving, kind and understanding, and will understand why I chose this path.

Thanks for answering my thread NoHelp, I consider you a friend, I hope that our differing views will not hamper that friendship. :)

You could always start by reading and seeing what fits into what you believe and what makes sense to you and take it from there if you want to. Then with things that do not make sense try and do a study on it or ask questions here.
I also do not believe a lot of what religions teach. I even believe some things that other religions believe but if I do not see it fitting in with the Bible I am more skeptical. I believe in the gap theory to explain the earth existing before the six day creation most Christians reject that teaching. Many Christians believe their religion is the ONLY way to heaven I believe God knows your heart and so he can 'save' people besides the ones that have 'the right' answer because there are many verses in the Bible that say things like he is the potter and we are the clay and he has mercy on whom he will have mercy. Is his arm so short he can not save? Also many who have 'the right' religion God says 'I never knew you' because their hearts are not pure.

and in fact there are not as many contradictions as people wish to assume, most are assumed for misunderstanding or taking things out of context and/or merely using todays english translations.

In fact the bible completes itself, with the OT being a more historical nature and the NT being eye witness testomony of what has ahppened

I admit that it's a well written book, and an entertaining read, but fact?

I went to a Catholic school, had the bible forced on me every single day, and yet I was told that I would go to hell because I wasn't Catholic. I could not receive communion on the occasions that we went to church as a school, I had to sit alone in the pews and be teased because I couldn't go up and receive a store bought wafer. My friends parents would preach to me, to "save my soul", they even called my parents to tell them that they were neglecting me because I wasn't Catholic.

After a few years of this I did change, but not in their favor, I grew a back bone and stood up for myself. When I was told I'd go to hell, I told them to save me a place by the fire. Whenever the school was going to Church, I refused to go, or wouldn't get off the bus, what was the point? There are many things like this that happened, some worse than the above, is it any wonder that I don't believe in organized religion, the kindness of Christians? I'm not saying that Christians are bad people, please don't take it that way.

The bible and Christianity go hand in hand. Every time I hear someone quote the bible and say it is the word of God, I cringe. If Christians want to base their faith on the bible, why can't they at least state that it is not in fact the "word of God" but stories that were told by man.

Isn't it possible that my faith is enough? I believe with absolutely no proof whatsoever, no bible, no religion, just my faith alone. I am fallible, I sin daily, as does everyone else that I know of, but I do believe in the same God as all of you, why?

I do appreciate that you posted Fr_Chuck, and I do respect your right to believe, not trying to prove I'm right, or that you're wrong.

One more question. If Christians didn't have the bible, would they still believe, and why?

One thing that is best is to separate religion from God and the Bible and seek the answers with an open mind and heart. People get too caught up in what the Church religion says and try to adjust the truth to their belief and have no idea what God really is telling us.

I do agree NoHelp.

I guess I'm an anomaly, I believe in spite of the bible, does that make sense? ;)

All I know for sure is that I will always believe in God. My parents raised me well, raised me to think for myself. I do have a bible, my Mother's bible, and I do treasure it, not because of the words written inside, but because it was hers, given to her by her mother, and her mothers mother, etc. It's very old, published in the 1800's.

Obviously I do not read the bible to my kids, nor do I take them to Church, but they both believe in God. I don't discuss God with them often, only when they ask questions about God, but somehow, some way, they believe.

I asked my daughter the other day, "Who made you so pretty?", she said, "God did". My response, "I think Mommy and Daddy had a hand in it". ;)

The point is, I do believe. Why, when I discuss God with others, are they so adamant that I believe in the Bible? Why isn't belief enough? I'm not saying that anyone on this thread has done that, but others have.

What is it about the Bible that is so important with respect to belief? Why can't someone believe in one and not the other?

I don't really expect an answer to that, it's a hard question to answer, but I do often wonder about it, and so far no one has ever given me a good reason why.

I think a lot of it is faith and seeing God in the Bible which I feel I have a bit of both otherwise I am sure I would be just like you are in questioning it.
Some of the things I have studied in the Bible are just too awesome for me to say that the Bible can't be right. Some things I really don't understand like why God would come up with a plan for Jesus to die for our sins since I do not see death as a good answer for anything yet I can see it looking at it in a different way than from a cruel type perspective which people that want to justify not believing often say.

some of the things I have studied in the Bible are just too awesome for me to say that the Bible can't be right.

And for me they are too awesome to believe they are right.

As for Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, that is one thing I do believe in, because of my parents. Yes, they go it from the bible, but they told me in their own words, and to me it did make sense, so I guess I have to say that I do believe in that part or that story, at least partially.

Other stories that I was told as a child, that probably aren't true, and aren't in the bible, but that I hold dear. The story of the spider with the cross on it's back and how it came to get that mark, if you're interested in hearing it I'd love to tell it. Total fiction, but still a story I love and share with my kids.

My beliefs are based on events that happened in my life, and in my parents life, things I have experienced that have no other explanation, in my opinion, but God.

I do have to say that nothing will ever convince me to follow the bible or to go to Church. I am happy with my life and my beliefs, just curious about others beliefs and why they believe what they do.

Thanks for answering my Thread NoHelp. :)

Oops I meant can't be wrong.
I understand what you are saying because some things I can't rationalize myself but then I know my understanding is limited and I have to go by faith.

And I choose to go by faith alone, without accepting the bible at all. :)

I guess in the end it really doesn't matter what someone believes, it's whether they are a good person that matters, in the end that's all we will be judged on right?

Big hug to you NoHelp, because I know you're a good person, and I'm trying every day to be better than I am right now, got some work ahead of me. ;)

It is more than being a good person. God is going to tell a lot of 'religious' people that he never knew them because their heart was not right. Sort of like people who glorify themselves and their works rather than giving the credit to God.

God is going to tell a lot of 'religious' people that he never knew them because their heart was not right.

Let me see if I am understanding what you are saying correctly.

I used to work for someone who was an extreme Christian, he's a member of the Pentecostal Religion, and also my Dad's boss for 25 years. He opened another shop and I was hired as a secretary. I've know this man since I was 5 years old, played with his two sons at Company Christmas party's etc.

Anyway, once I started to work for him he insisted on talking about religion with me, about trying to get me to convert to his way of thinking. I politely explained that I was not interested and didn't wish to discuss this in the work place.

A few months after I started working there one of our neighbors lost their 18 year old son in a tragic car accident. I used to babysit this boy and his sister, they had been our neighbors since I was 9 years old. I asked my boss for the morning off so that I could attend the funeral. I was refused. I asked how a religious man such as himself could deny me a few hours off in order to go to a funeral. He said that there was a delivery coming in, and even though he would be at the office, he wanted me to handle it. This didn't sit well with me, and I told him that he would have to handle the delivery because I intended to pay my respects to the family, to mourn with them. He laughed, said, do you honestly think it will make one bit of difference if you are there? It won't bring their son back, they probably won't even notice your absence. I told him that what he said was true, it probably wouldn't make a difference to them, but it would to me. I asked how he could be so unkind and uncaring, isn't that against his religion? He said this, and I remember it clearly to this day. "I do what I want, say what I want, crush anyone who stands in the way of what I want, as long as I go home at the end of the day and pray for forgiveness, then it doesn't matter, doesn't count".

Another reason for me not to follow organized religion, and proof that not all religious people are pure of heart.

Yeah that is basically one of the types of 'religious' people I mean. They believe their good works or their prayers for forgiveness can buy their way into heaven rather than approaching God in a humble faith like way that is pleasing to him.

Why do Christians base their beliefs on the bible? Why do they consider the bible to be Gods word?
Just FYI: historically Christians have based their beliefs on the GOSPEL... which is both Scripture and the Tradition of the Church.

Only since the Reformation have there been Protestant groups which look to the bible alone as the sole source of divine revelation, but that was not the case for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

"But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me."
-Saint Augustine

Peace be with you.

I would not believe in the Gospel IF God had not moved me.

And wasn't Gospel, aka the New Testament, also written by Man?

And wasn't Gospel, aka the New Testament, also written by Man?
Written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit... and it's also important to remember that the books that went into the Bible had to be decided upon by men (Catholic Church) as well.

I admit that it's a well written book, and an entertaining read, but fact?

I think, because of your early experiences, you have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. Your gripes are with the Church and especially with "well-meaning" members, and not with the Bible (that people take and run with).

Is it completely factual? What does that mean? Did things happen exactly as the Bible said? Some people think so, but others don't.

Even if one doesn't "believe in" the Bible, there are ways to appreciate it--its prose and poetry, its stories of failure and forgiveness, its ideas on how to treat others.*

The Bible has in all sorts of ways (good as well as bad) affected the lives of millions of people. Certainly if the Bible is "just a book," that wouldn't be the case.

Maybe learning to *appreciate the Bible is a place to start now that you're a grownup with some life experiences behind you and a much more analytical and commonsensical way of thinking.

He said this, and I remember it clearly to this day. "I do what I want, say what I want, crush anyone who stands in the way of what I want, as long as I go home at the end of the day and pray for forgiveness, then it doesn't matter, doesn't count".

Another reason for me not to follow organized religion, and proof that not all religious people are pure of heart.
You do realize that he is the worst possible representative of organized religion. You know, and I know, he has "it" all wrong. Please don't use him as your standard and as your reason for deep-sixing the Bible.

Written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit... and it's also important to remember that the books that went into the Bible had to be decided upon by men (Catholic Church) as well.


And mentioning the Catholic Church to me will get you where? No where.

As for Gospel being written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, well, sorry, but there's no proof of that.

Also, who died and decided the Catholic Church reigned supreme? I don't think so.

Sorry, but if you read any of my other posts, the sure fire way to get me to turn a deaf ear, is to preach to me. As for the Catholic Church, if that is your belief, you have a right to it, but I will never be a part of any religious group, and if I had to pick one tomorrow, gun to my head, the Catholic Church would be the last on my list.

You do realize that he is the worst possible representative of organized religion. You know, and I know, he has "it" all wrong. Please don't use him as your standard and as your reason for deep-sixing the Bible.

No, he wasn't the reason, or not the only one. I just cannot accept a book that was written by man to be "the word of God".

No, he wasn't the reason, or not the only one. I just cannot accept a book that was written by man to be "the word of God".
So, do you know why it is called the Word of God?

I think, because of your early experiences, you have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. Your gripes are with the Church and especially with "well-meaning" members, and not with the Bible (that people take and run with).

Is it completely factual? What does that mean? Did things happen exactly as the Bible said? Some people think so, but others don't.

Even if one doesn't "believe in" the Bible, there are ways to appreciate it--its prose and poetry, its stories of failure and forgiveness, its ideas on how to treat others.*

The Bible has in all sorts of ways (good as well as bad) affected the lives of millions of people. Certainly if the Bible is "just a book," that wouldn't be the case.

Maybe learning to *appreciate the Bible is a place to start now that you're a grownup with some life experiences behind you and a much more analytical and commonsensical way of thinking.

Oh, it's not a bad book, I agree, and some of the stories in it are inspirational and beautiful, I agree. But, to base all my belief on a man written book, no, I won't do that.

Yes, I do have gripes with the Church, I admit that, but not without reason. Church is yet another example of mans views, mans way, based on the bible, written by man, held in a building, built by man, paid for by the people that follow that religion, that believe in that one man, priest, pastor, what have you.

The Church speaks of hell, fire and brimstone. Do as I say or burn in hell. Follow these man written rules, do not disobey, or there will be hell to pay.

That's not my cup of tea.

Why must the Church preach hell and damnation, why must the bible state what will happen if you don't obey? Why? To scare you into accepting this written work as the "word of God".

I choose to believe because I have hope, not because I'm scared. If I die tomorrow I will not be afraid, because I know, in my heart, that God knows who and what I am, even if I don't go to Church.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, I'm just trying to explain my reasoning. I don't expect you to agree, and I do respect your right to disagree.

Peace.

I choose to believe because I have hope, not because I'm scared. If I die tomorrow I will not be afraid, because I know, in my heart, that God knows who and what I am, even if I don't go to Church.
Amen!

Why must the Church preach hell and damnation, why must the bible state what will happen if you don't obey? Why? To scare you into accepting this written work as the "word of God".

I choose to believe because I have hope, not because I'm scared.
Actually, you have it right. The Bible is hope and the message is really one of love, God's love for us and ours for him in return and then his love reflecting off us onto others. But that's too easy for people to see and understand. People want to have to work hard to get saved and be scared and to scare others. Wish I knew why. The real deal is so much nicer.

Actually, you have it right. The Bible is hope and the message is really one of love, God's love for us and ours for him in return and then his love reflecting off us onto others. But that's too easy for people to see and understand. People want to have to work hard to get saved and be scared and to scare others. Wish I knew why. The real deal is so much nicer.

I agree Wondergirl.

God has blessed us to be a blessing to others.

DAH yeah that is what she believes!
As Altenweg asked Why do Christians base their beliefs on the bible? That was specifically asked in her question.

SO WHY DO you insist on constantly badgering Christians with ''That is what you believe'' when it is clear to everybody concerned (EXCEPT apparently YOU) by pointing out ''that is what you believe"... DUH yeah that is what she believes along with many others. It is not like Wondergirl is claiming she is speaking for you or anybody else so your point why you point it out is invalid!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Nohelp "I believe" you deserve a greenie:D
"I believe" that this post should not be Cred critiquing the members on how they speak but about altys question.

I'm with you Alty I can't see how people can follow a book that was written by men, I feel that some men are sometimes so full of greed and self perseveration they would fail to think of society as a whole and do what's best for them.

I can't believe how some parts of the bible and other religions have so little respect for women... I can't get past that part, so I could never attend church or go by a bible that does not see women as equals.
I do feel like the church and bible makes some people better for it, I think peoples belief in the bible and its teachings have turned them from evil so I would never say that the bible is a bad thing, just not for me.
I wish I could have believed "the word" my life would have been a lot easier, in the I'm sure I would have closer ties with my family had I gone down the religious path they went, maybe not who knows.
Anyway that's my view on the bible.

I agree about the way women were treated back then but that is one of the things that is recorded history and not necessarily the way God wanted men to treat women. The Bible says for men to treat women with respect and women submit to men as men are to submit to God. MAN has taken the submission out of context to mean to rule over the woman as subservient but that was never how God meant it.
Unfortunately evil men still want to distort the Bible to make the male dominant other races, women and anybody they can but God is not in that it is evil man twisting God into his own image.

P.S. I don't think there is anything wrong with Alty's post ;) or anybody's reply... everything WAS going along well with no misunderstandings.

It doesn't show that I am incapable or unwilling to accept anything other than YOUR insistence of prefacing religious beliefs with 'I believe....'
Incorrect : it shows precisely that you are unwilling to accept the reality that whatever statement one makes based on what one believes can only be accepted as factual when valid OSE has been provided for that .

:D

·

NO it does not... this is the religious discussion board so anything religious that is stated IS belief. This is not the science board or even the prove it board.
The question was why do you believe? Alty did NOT ask for anything FACTUAL so your argument here is TOTALLY irrelevant!!
You are reading way too much into stuff if you want to 'accuse' me that I am unwilling to accept reality.

I think the majority of us are able to sort and distinguish belief from fact
I am sorry that you have a problem in making the distinction and HAVE to have it pointed out to you.

I can not believe that YOU accuse me of being the one to make the fuss over it when countless posts by you always YOU making the fuss of 'That is your belief' and to top it all off I don't even reply to the majority of the posts you fuss at Sassy and others. SO DO not even attempt to throw this on me being the one making the fuss about it.
I can even go through all your replies and come up with a good 200 posts by you making the fuss where I never even commented on!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Your very own posts prove that you make the fuss because they all tend to go on over 20 some pages back and forth and not getting anywhere other than nitpicking others.

When are you going to reply to the OP topic?

Not so. This is indeed the religious discussion board. But not each statement made here is based on belief. My statements for sure are not.
The OP asked for our beliefs. We are giving them to her. Thus, stating the obvious is not necessary anytime someone posts. "Belief" is implicit in each response; it doesn't have to be explicit. Even your comments, John, are based on your beliefs, so please speak to the question on the table.

I will never be a part of any religious group, and if I had to pick one tomorrow, gun to my head, the Catholic Church would be the last on my list.
Why don't you tell us how you really feel about the Catholic Church, Alty? LMAO!

I'm following this thread with interest, but haven't time to post anything substantial right now, except to say that I can empathize with where you're coming from.

The point is, I do believe. Why, when I discuss God with others, are they so adamant that I believe in the Bible? Why isn't belief enough? I'm not saying that anyone on this thread has done that, but others have.

What is it about the Bible that is so important with respect to belief? Why can't someone believe in one and not the other?

I don't really expect an answer to that, it's a hard question to answer, but I do often wonder about it, and so far no one has ever given me a good reason why.


My answer to your queries is almost the same as I always give on religious discussions regarding the different religions (especially the monotheistic religions).

It was not different religions revealed at different times,but the same beliefs of monotheism and the golden rules(or commandments).

It has been the same Almighty sending Messengers and Messages to all humanity,but each time a book is revealed(and yes I do believe in the original Bible being the word of the Almighty,and I also believe in the original Torah being revealed by the Almighty).

-each time revelations are sent, a group of people believes,some turn their backs to the revelation,which would mean there will be at least two groups of people (or could even become two different religions).
And then there will be those who form their own ideas from the revelation and this in turn may become a new religion,that makes it three different religion at least per revelation.
Not to mention those who break away from all of these groups and form their own beliefs mixed/not mixed with older beliefs before the revelation of that time(maybe follow the revelations of ages past).

And I do believe that each time a chosen Messenger is sent,some follow him or they reject him or they start worshipping him instead of the One Almighty.
Now years since the revelation, some are still following the original,while others have made changes as per their own thoughts,while others are lost in between,some reject all of these and form their own opinions on how life is to be lived.

The best thing is to do a comparison of all three monotheistic faiths books(as you already do believe in an Almighty),where you will be able to find the similarities and differences.
You may see what I said about the revelations from being the same source when you see the similarities in the books and the commands too.

I want to say that I welcome all opinions and statements, all.

I value every one of your views and beliefs, no matter what they are.

Let's keep this conversation friendly, okay?

I do wish to restate that I am not, by definition, a Christian, although I do value your input to my question, I do not follow a Christian faith. I've been there, done that, read "the book". ;)

I have read every post, and I do thank you for responding to me.

I still do not understand why so many people put so much stock in the bible. Yes, it is a good book, has lots of interesting and inspiring stories. It also has allot of hell, fire and brimstone, punishment, you better obey or else. Not for me, and I really don't believe that God (at least not the God I believe in) would ever dish out the punishment that is spoken of in the bible.

I believe in a God that allows free will, a God that forgives us our sins as long as we really repent of those sins. A God that is like a parent, will let us make mistakes, learn, and move on. A God that does not step in when we make those mistakes, but gives us the intelligence to learn from them and grow.

Maybe I don't believe in the same God as all of you, there are so many differences between my beliefs and the beliefs of those that follow the bible and go to Church. So, if there is but one God, then who do I believe in? Is he the same God that Christians believe in? If so, then how can that be? I guess I am confused, but not about my beliefs so much as I am about others.

Let's try to remember when posting here, that we are all human beings, none of us are perfect. I am trying to respect that very human quality in others, ah yes, I have learned something, so let's try and be kind to each other. I truly believe that we can talk about our differences in a way that is respectable to everyone.

Okay?

Believe in God the creator the almighty and understand repenting of sin you are off to a good start I think

Well, I decided to open up a huge can of worms, but I hope that we can all have a rational discussion about this, because I really do want everyone's point of view.

Why do Christians base their beliefs on the bible? Why do they consider the bible to be Gods word?

The Bible was written by men, not God, not Jesus, but men. How do you explain all the contradictions in the bible? Do you really believe everything that the bible states, all the miracles, all the stories?

Why do people quote the bible and expect that to be taken as proof of Gods word?

I believe in God, but not the bible, I believe in God but not in Church. Isn't the belief of the bible and church putting you in the hands of man, not God?

I'm curious to know, so please respond, but lets be nice about it. I will admit now that no matter what you say about the validity of the bible, I will not ever accept it as the word of God, 10 years of Catholic school got that out of my system. I just want to know why Christians believe in a man written book, after all, man is not perfect, man is not infallible, so how can the bible be the God's honest truth?

I was brought up as Roman Catholic, I also went to other church services from other denominations growing up. The church has changed a lot over the years and I believe that church can be beneficial... I also believe that you should always be open to new experiences... Trying different churches out, studying the bible... Just because you may not believe that the bible was not written by God, but only by men... I believe that Gods codes or life imprint or guided spirit is within each of us. It is up to us to open up to his word, which his word is within each of us. Jesus said, he would send a comforter to all of us. Without God nothing would be possible, but I truly feel that within each and everyone of us, has different gifts and different ways of expressing those gifts... The spirit can lead us in many different books. Is the Bible more important then God know, but the bible if used in the proper hands can be a blue print in each of our lives..

As far as contradictions, The old testament is more of a history book and stories of the experiences of people in those days. It is a story told by the witnesses of that day and were expressed in different ways depending on the persons outlook and experience of life.

I would also like to add that many of the stories and influences of the bible are their to show future generations of their cultures and beliefs and how there is always room for forgiveness, love, and compassion no matter what is happening in life.

For me personally, nothing was shoved down my throat and I do not believe I do that with others. I started at a very young age reading the bible on my own, it was my guide in life. I had no father figure and God was my only true father that I could depend on and the one way I got to know God was through reading the bible and meditating and praying...

So since a young age I have always had God within me and I have always believed the bible to be true accounts of God, and his love for his creation.

I do not quote but like to give examples of certain stories or relate to others by my own personal experiences in life. We can help each other through our stories, our life stories and that is why I believe there are so many stories in the bible. To show us, and guide us and help us along the path of LOVE, FORGIVENESS, AND SO MUCH MORE.

I am rambling on and on... I just know that the bible and getting to know God through prayer and meditation has helped many times... Not just for understanding when life is hard for myself but to also give strength to other people.

I also would like to add that I do believe our own personal experiences while we are young, whether with family, church , etc... can and do shape what we may believe or not believe when older...
Many people who have had bad experiences in the church or school, are then turned away from that certain denomination... It is understandable but as the old saying goes.. do not judge the book by its cover, or do not let one bad apple ruin everything.
I have had my own personal experiences in the church that I do not agree with and never will, then there are other things that I do agree with. It is up to each of us to stand up for what each of us as individuals believe in... To share that with each other, my belief is we all can share with each other our different views and thoughts and beliefs is good for all of us.

Joe I value your input, and I do respect your beliefs. To you the bible is a comfort, the word of God, I don't begrudge you that, in fact I will admit that I envy your unfaltering belief, your commitment to that belief.

You have never preached to me, or to anyone else on this site as far as I know. You are an example of someone that lives his life according to his beliefs without feeling the need to make anyone else feel or think the same way. I respect that.

I can't say that I am as respectful of that, I have gotten into arguments with people about religion, that is something I do not wish to do. I realized, recently, that allot of the time, when a fight or argument ensues, if I would have just backed down, or spoken more respectfully, then the argument would not have begun.

I started this thread to share my beliefs, and to ask about others beliefs. Perhaps I did word it in a way that forced people to stand up for their beliefs, if so I apologize, that was not my intention.

I did realize that I might be opening a huge can of worms by posting this, but I honestly wanted to discuss this, with everyone. If I've hurt anyone's feelings then I apologize for that too, that was not my intention.

I know that my experiences growing up (not because of my parents, they truly were the most wonderful parents anyone could have asked for) turned me away from the bible and Church, and I have no desire whatsoever to turn back to either of them. My experiences did not turn me away from God, I still believe.

I guess I'm a bit confused, struggling to understand how Christians, and someone like me, could really believe in the same God. Our beliefs are so very different, so do we believe in the same God? I don't know. And if we don't, then why?

I keep asking more questions, and I know that there aren't any answers.

I cannot accept the bible as fact, nor can I put my faith in organized religion, so how can anyone answer my questions when the two things that any Christian would use to convince me are things I will not accept?

Maybe I should ask that this thread be closed, I don't want anyone to be hurt by anything I say.

Perhaps this thread has done one thing. Now you all understand my beliefs more, and perhaps, by understanding that, you can better understand me. :)

I don't put my faith in any denomination either. I believe that most of them lead people away from the truth rather than to the truth. I DO study their doctrines and compare them to the Bible and learn what I can from it though.

I admire you, Alty, for posting your question on a public board and risking a few arrows. It sounds like you are open to God being in your life, and isn't that what it's all about, no matter what a person believes?

I agree she is more open to God than many that do good works trying to 'buy' their way to heaven which many do-gooder church people mistakenly do.

God of the Jews,
God of the Christians,
God of the Native Indians,
The God of etc...

What I am saying here is there is in my belief one God, but we all see different aspects of that same God. Each of us has something different to offer. Meaning that... By sharing each others beliefs and how each person has come to that belief is important to share..

Even though Alty, you feel there is two major things that separate you from what Christians believe. I betcha if you dig a little deeper and get more posting going on you will find there may be more similarities then you think. Just a thought.

For example: There are many experiences I had in church that were not necessarily positive, but I look at things completely different then what the church teaches or practices. So some things I do not agree with and won't... but I do not think it matters what church, religion, denomination or person you speak with.. There is good and bad with everything and it is up to each of us to find what is right for us, I mean find and discover what beliefs we do have...

Like you have said you Believe in God, in your own way.
You believe in Jesus.

I think we all have our own ideas, and no man made religion can satisfy our thirst for the complete true loving God, but as I said I believe we can find that truth within ourselves...

My own opinion...

I was a Lutheran, but never an active member of the Church. We went to Church twice a year, once at Christmas (my parents loved the carolling and the decorations) and once on Easter (again, the decorations, the songs, and the fact that it was a great excuse to buy a new outfit). ;)

My parents never pushed Church on me, nor did they push God on me. Like I said before, it was my decision to go the Catholic school, because my best friend went to that school.

My parents believed in God, much the same way I do now. I guess in a way I'm sticking to my roots, even though they never said that I had to, and never actually described their actual faith or belief.

The stories they told, the things that they did, and things that happened in our lives, that's where my belief came from.

I can honestly say, no matter what is said here, I will never venture into a Church as a member.

Sorry everyone, I hope you can accept that.

Wondergirl, NoHelp and Joe, thank you, that's really all I can say, thank you. :)

Alty, that is your choice and you need to stay true to yourself.. and true to your beliefs and your roots. (;

Jesus said the two greatest commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. From what I've observed, Alty, those commandments are written on your heart.

Thanks everyone. :)

Good discussion, great friends. :)

Jesus said the two greatest commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. From what I've observed, Alty, those commandments are written on your heart.
Exactly what I am saying it is the purity of heart that God has mercy on whom he will.
Not what denomination you attended or how many times you made it to a service within a week or a month or year.

I can honestly say, no matter what is said here, I will never venture into a Church as a member.

Sorry everyone, I hope you can accept that.

Alty, You know what Lately I have been going to a different denomination church and they try to get you in as a member, and accept the church as your new home...

I have still not committed myself or my family because I believe that I am just a visitor, to any church or denomination I go to. I am just a VISITOR..
I belong to God. That is simple. So I do not feel the need to commit to any church, even though they want you to, that is just not in my belief either.

I guess we aren't really all that different after all. :)

Same here JH
Many will even tell you you have to have a church home and not church hop within the denomination but every time I ever went to different churches because the Holy Spirit led me I was really really blessed each time.

The Bible has in all sorts of ways (good as well as bad) affected the lives of millions of people. Certainly if the Bible is "just a book," that wouldn't be the case.There are quite a few other books that have affected the lives of millions of people (good as well as bad), so the Bible is not particularly unique by that criterion.

My opinion is (I BELIEVE) that many, many such texts (hundreds at least, maybe thousands) exist in the world, and that they are all more than "just a book". I really don't have a problem accepting the Bible as a holy book of scripture, but I have a BIG problem accepting it as the ONLY holy book of scripture. To me, the scriptures of the world contain the accumulated stories of humanity's yearning for and attempts to approach the transcendent and the ineffable--that which is believed to be real, but is just beyond the grasp of the rational intellect. Those of us who have some measure of that yearning in our own mind (not everybody does) can learn much from reading these texts. But I don't think any of them are The Word of God.

As to why churches use scriptures the way they do, it's important to remember that churches are voluntary social organizations. That means any individual can unilaterally remove themselves from the church, and the church can expel and exclude any person it deems unworthy to belong. So they have a need to make up a list of rules and regulations and criteria that define who is to be regarded as "one of us", and who is to be treated as "one of them". Many of them seem to think that scripture is the right tool for this job, and they often develop considerable skill wielding it as device for sorting sheep from goats. This turning of scriptures into rulebooks for inclusion and exclusion based on required beliefs and behaviors is a degradation and perversion of them, in my opinion.

Maybe I don't believe in the same God as all of you, there are so many differences between my beliefs and the beliefs of those that follow the bible and go to Church. So, if there is but one God, then who do I believe in? Is he the same God that Christians believe in? If so, then how can that be? I guess I am confused, but not about my beliefs so much as I am about others.

Okay?
I would actually like to hear your thoughts on what I said...
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/bible-gods-word-mans-247235-4.html#post1205948

Hi Alty,

Great question and great thread.

Being a Roman Catholic and attending Catholic school, we never had our head in the bible.
Mostly, it was the ten Commandments taught over and over.

During Mass, readings from the bible are read, and then explained. Which actually is my favorite part of the mass.

I believe there are truths in the bible, and it is a tool, to keep us strong, and on the right path, but man did have a role in writing it, so they may have added their views to it as well, but it should not take away from the truths that are in there.

The bible is a tool, the ten Commandments, Mother Teresa's writings, the love we have for God and others in our hearts, are all tools that can be incorporated in our daily lives, to help keep God, and His love, the central point in our lives.

Couldn't resist adding my thoughts to this. ;)

The reason for my believing in the bible as God's Word is that he is more than capable of using numerous men as his secretaries to pen his thoughts, and to keep them pure down to this day, which he himself promised (Psa 12:6,7). It doesn't make sense to me that God would inspire something to be written, but then not be able to sustain it over time. The problem is certain men themselves, distorting and adding, even taking away sayings from the scriptures to suit themselves. (Something the apostles were careful not to do.) For this reason they were told to keep testing whether they were in the faith and to keep proving what they themselves were. (2 Cor 13:5)

So really if we were to study it deeply and meditate on the things we read, we'd soon discover the wonderful purpose God has for mankind and how the problems we all face will shortly be solved, and not just in a few countries but globally. Pity you won't change your mind Alt. It really is a guidebook for mankind. It's just a matter of how one chooses to use it as to whether it works or not.

:)

I would actually like to hear your thoughts on what I said...
All you actually did in that statement was separating the 3 mono-theistic religions from all others, and declare them all 3 to be different versions describing one and the same entity.
Besides that your selection makes all other religions invalid (without providing reasoning why), I do not think that many christians and jews will agree that their god is one the same as yours, in view of the different guidance it provides.
Maybe you can explain how you see that a little more clearly.

:)

·

I don't see where Firmbeliever did that at all. She said compare all religions and see what you come up with.
I take her monolith as meaning All roads lead to heaven type thing.
I sure don't get where FB invalidated any religious beliefs.

I don't see where Firmbeliever did that at all.
If you would follow the link she provided, you would see that in post #38 - the one she referred to !

Firmbelievers link (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/bible-gods-word-mans-247235-4.html#post1205948)

:rolleyes:

·

THAT IS the one I was referring to


My answer to your queries is almost the same as I always give on religious discussions regarding the different religions (especially the monotheistic religions).

It was not different religions revealed at different times,but the same beliefs of monotheism and the golden rules(or commandments).

It has been the same Almighty sending Messengers and Messages to all humanity,but each time a book is revealed(and yes I do believe in the original Bible being the word of the Almighty,and I also believe in the original Torah being revealed by the Almighty).

-each time revelations are sent, a group of people believes,some turn their backs to the revelation,which would mean there will be at least two groups of people (or could even become two different religions).
And then there will be those who form their own ideas from the revelation and this in turn may become a new religion,that makes it three different religion at least per revelation.
Not to mention those who break away from all of these groups and form their own beliefs mixed/not mixed with older beliefs before the revelation of that time(maybe follow the revelations of ages past).

And I do believe that each time a chosen Messenger is sent,some follow him or they reject him or they start worshipping him instead of the One Almighty.
Now years since the revelation, some are still following the original,while others have made changes as per their own thoughts,while others are lost in between,some reject all of these and form their own opinions on how life is to be lived.

The best thing is to do a comparison of all three monotheistic faiths books(as you already do believe in an Almighty),where you will be able to find the similarities and differences.
You may see what I said about the revelations from being the same source when you see the similarities in the books and the commands too.

I don't see what firmbeliever said as any different than the Christian teaching where the Bible talks about beware of false teaching and false prophets.

THAT IS the one I was referring to
How can you relate that than to Hinduism, and many other multi-theistic religions?
It is like Pascals Wager : if it is valid to reject one or more other gods, why can't the single god you believe in not be rejected also ?

Let's just wait for Firmbelievers reply...

:rolleyes:

·

I do not think that many christians and jews will agree that their god is one the same as yours, in view of the different guidance it provides.
Here's one Christian who does not... ;)

Jesus was either God incarnate or simply some nut... calling him a "prophet" does not cut it for me.

Peace be with you.

I can not argue that either.

Who is Jesus?  Lord, Liar or Lunatic (http://www.greatcom.org/resources/whoisjesusorig/lordliarlunatic.html)

Who is Jesus: Claims (http://www.whoisjesus-really.com/english/claims.htm)

In his famous book Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis makes this statement, "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg--or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us.(emphasis: web author)"

Jesus could only have been one of four things: a legend, a liar, a lunatic--or Lord and God. There is so much historical and archeological evidence to support his existence that every reputable historian agrees he was not just a legend. If he were a liar, why would he die for his claim, when he could easily have avoided such a cruel death with a few choice words? And, if he were a lunatic, how did he engage in intelligent debates with his opponents or handle the stress of his betrayal and crucifixion while continuing to show a deep love for his antagonists? He said he was Lord and God. The evidence supports that claim.

Here's one Christian who does not.... Jesus was either God incarnate or simply some nut .... calling him a "prophet" does not cut it for me.
So you say that Jesus was either "God incarnate" or "simply some nut", but not a "prophet".
Besides that the "either/or" suggests doubt about Jesus as Christ, it also rejects with "not a prophet" Judaism and Islam... That leaves only one more religion to reject ! You're almost there !

:rolleyes:

·

It means you either believe Jesus was the son of God not merely a prophet. Sure he was a prophet in a sense, but he was much more than a prophet.

IF YOU BELIEVE Jesus was NOT the son of God then you ARE calling him a liar, a lunatic or a nut.

JUST as anybody that would walk right up to you today and claim they are the Messiah
You would either believe they are the Messiah or you would call them a liar, a lunatic or a nut

So what in that does not make sense to you?

So you say that Jesus was either "God incarnate" or "simply some nut", but not a "prophet".
I do say that...

Jesus makes many claims that he is God... for instance (Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48) - Jesus forgives sins, and only God can forgive sins... so that is why I say that he either was what he said he was, or was a friggin nut job! :D

That's why I believe to call him a "prophet" makes no sense at all...

Besides that the "either/or" suggests doubt about Jesus as Christ,
Huh?

No doubt at all on my part... I'm quite certain he was telling the truth about himself, but that's not really what the thread is discussing so we'll save that for another time.

That leaves only one more religion to reject ! You're almost there !
Hehe... you're so cute... I appreciate your comments.

God bless.

IF YOU BELIEVE Jesus was NOT the son of God then you ARE calling him a liar, a lunatic or a nut.

JUST as anybody that would walk right up to you today and claim they are the Messiah
You would either believe they are the Messiah or you would call them a liar, a lunatic or a nut

So what in that does not make sense to you?
The three choices you list (liar, lunatic, Lord) aren't the only ones. Bringing it back to the topic of this thread, the only record we have of what Jesus said was written by adherents to the new religion that grew up after he was gone. It's at least possible that they embellished his actual claims a little bit.

As far as we know, Jesus himself didn't write anything down for his disciples. Why do you suppose that is? It certainly wasn't because he didn't know how to write. I suspect it was because he grew up in a book-worshiping culture and saw first-hand all the mischief and foolishness that people engage in using holy books to do battle with one another.

The three choices you list (liar, lunatic, Lord) aren't the only ones.
Another choice would be______________?

It's at least possible that they embellished his actual claims a little bit.
And it would then be possible that they were totally accurate.

Why do you suppose that is?
That's a matter of opinion for sure, but one resolved quite easily with my theology... sola scriptura adherants might have different opinion, but it's again a matter of opinion.

Another choice would be______________?
His followers and chroniclers misquoted and embellished what he actually said.

Yes that is a claim that non believers do use. I agree

His followers and chroniclers misquoted and embellished what he actually said.
Yes, I suppose that could be said of any literal work... but my personal study of history leads me to believe the Gospels represent an accurate (if not literally perfect) representation of the Christian faith.

His followers and chroniclers misquoted and embellished what he actually said.

And therein lies my problem.

That's why I treat the bible as just a book, not the "word of God".

Yes that is a claim that non believers do use. I agree
So, to people who allow for that possibility (non-believers in biblical inerrancy), the idea that Jesus was a great prophet and teacher, but not the Son of God, isn't unreasonable at all. The conclusion that it is unreasonable depends completely on accepting the Bible record of Jesus' representation of himself as flawlessly accurate.

Yes, I suppose that could be said of any literal work.... but my personal study of history leads me to believe the Gospels represent an accurate (if not literally perfect) representation of the Christian faith.

That is your and Christians faith yes BUT ordinary guy is referring to people that say Jesus was ONLY a prophet and not the Son of God. The statement really has nothing to do with Christians it is directed toward people/religions that claim he was not who he claimed to be.

So, to people who allow for that possibility (non-believers in biblical inerrancy), the idea that Jesus was a great prophet and teacher, but not the Son of God, isn't unreasonable at all. The conclusion that it is unreasonable depends completely on accepting the Bible record of Jesus' representation of himself as flawlessly accurate.

Yeah the statement means that if Jesus was not exactly what he claims to be then the ones that say he was not are saying he was a liar basically.
Same as if somebody walked up to you and said they were the Messiah and you did not believe he was the Messiah you would have to call him a liar, lunatic or nut for making such a claim.

That's a matter of opinion for sure, but one resolved quite easily with my theology....

.... but my personal study of history leads me to believe...
It's refreshing that you acknowledge that your conclusions are based on your theology, and your personal study of history. I respect that.

The statement really has nothing to do with Christians it is directed toward people/religions that claim he was not who he claimed to be.

Yeah the statement means that if Jesus was not exactly what he claims to be then the ones that say he was not are saying he was a liar basically.
Same as if somebody walked up to you and said they were the Messiah and you did not believe he was the Messiah you would have to call him a liar, lunatic or nut for making such a claim.Excuse me, but I think you're still missing my point, which is that we don't really know what Jesus himself claimed to be. All we have is a record created by people who had a vested interest in promoting him, not as just a prophet and teacher, but as the Son of God. I think he was probably much more modest about his mission than they were.

It's refreshing that you acknowledge that your conclusions are based on your theology, and your personal study of history. I respect that.
Why thank you my friend... I think it is important to always know that when it comes to faith, we are all just giving our opinions... there is no "proof" as in the sciences, but I still think we should all search for truth.

One of the reasons I never put anyone, or anything, between me and a personal relationship with the God that I understand, is people tend to screw it up, with their opinions, and agendas. I try to keep it real simple.

Lets be honest, EVERYONE THINKS THEIR RIGHT.

One of the reasons I never put anyone, or anything, between me and a personal relationship with the God that I understand, is people tend to screw it up, with their opinions, and agendas. I try to keep it real simple.

Lets be honest, EVERYONE THINKS THEIR RIGHT.

Very true Tal, very true. You're right. ;) A greenie for you. :D

All you actually did in that statement was separating the 3 mono-theistic religions from all others, and declare them all 3 to be different versions describing one and the same entity.
Besides that your selection makes all other religions invalid (without providing reasoning why), I do not think that many christians and jews will agree that their god is one the same as yours, in view of the different guidance it provides.
Maybe you can explain how you see that a little more clearly.

:)

·


It isn't just the three monotheistic faiths I meant,but I did emphasise on them.I do believe that monotheism was the origin of polytheism.

If one was to compare even the polythesitic faiths like Hinduism,their basic belief is a single Deity with many manifestations.Their scripture is considered one of the oldest.

Their basic beliefs according to their scriptures speak of a Single Deity,just like the Karan tribe of Burma(links at the end of my answer to articles on monotheism & polytheism)

-------------------------
I have taken these verses of the Gita from different resources and if there be any mistakes, please correct them (I would higly appreciate it)
“He who is free from delusion, and knows me as the supreme Reality, knows all that can be known. Therefore he adores me with his whole heart.” (Bhagavad Gita 15:19)

“There are two kinds of personality in this world, the mortal and the immortal. The personality of all creatures is mortal. The personality of God is said to be immortal. It is the same for ever.” (Bhagavad Gita 15:16)

“A man of faith, absorbed in faith, his senses controlled, attains knowledge, and, knowledge attained, quickly finds supreme peace. But the ignorant man, who is without faith, goes doubting to destruction. For the doubting self there is neither this world, nor the next, nor joy.”
- Bhagavad Gita 4.39-40

"If men thought of God as much as they think of the world, who would not attain liberation (moksha)." - Maitri Upanishad 6.24.

“May God come and reside in our hearts;
May our body be the temple of God.
May He feed freely upon the harvest of our actions as the cows graze in the pasture.
May we reap the harvest of our life and dedicate all at His feet,
May we ever remain His true servants.”
- Rig Veda 1.91.13

“May the bounteous fire divine, consume them with his fiercely glowing sharp jaws like flames, who disregard the commandments and steadfast laws of most venerable and sagacious Lord.
(Rigveda 4:5:4)

“Praise Him who is the matchless and alone.”(Hymns of Rigveda - Rigveda, VI, 45-16

“He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginning-less, as the Supreme Lord of all the Worlds.”
(Bhagvad Gita 10:3)
----------------------------------------------

Regarding Jesus(alaihi salaam)-
My belief is that he was very special,chosen by the Almighty. His teachings would be similar to the older revelations because he was sent to confirm what had come before and to emphasise and guide those who may have gone astray in their monotheism.

And yes I do believe in his descent into this world sometime in the future.

Lunatic,Liar or any other degrading terms would not be part of a description I would use for either Moses(alaihi salaam) or Jesus(alaihi salaam) or for that matter any of the Prophets/Messengers mentioned in the Bible or Torah.

I apologise to any who may feel offended,which is not my intention,just stating my beliefs.

Regarding Jewish beliefs,I have a thread on the Judaism board and I have found that my faith has so many similarities to theirs,it has to have come from the same source as all other previous revelations.


From Monotheism to Polytheism (http://www.custance.org/old/evol/2ch1/2ch1.html)
MONOTHEISM (http://www.bloomington.in.us/~lgthscac/monotheism.htm)

Lunatic,Liar or any other degrading terms would not be part of a description I would use for either Moses(alaihi salaam) or Jesus(alaihi salaam) or for that matter any of the Prophets/Messengers mentioned in the Bible or Torah.

Then that means you believe their claims :D

Lunatic,Liar or any other degrading terms would not be part of a description I would use for either Moses(alaihi salaam) or Jesus(alaihi salaam) or for that matter any of the Prophets/Messengers mentioned in the Bible or Torah.

Then that means you believe their claims :D

:) What claims?

That Jesus, Moses and the Prophets/messengers WERE who they said they were.

Yes I do believe they were special,just not divine or demi gods.

Then you believe what they claim which means you do not see them as liars, lunatics or nutcases.

The way all the persons you have mentioned have made such a big mark in the lives of people, and history itself, even to this day, is to profound to ignore. Special definitely, divine??

There is a very big world out here and every culture on earth has practically the same story of deities and traditions, some even earlier than the region most claim to be the home of their beliefs.

Man is good for one thing though, when he disagrees, he takes his self across the street, starts yet another religion, and blast those that disagree with him, sadly that's all our history's, as humans.

The way all the persons you have mentioned have made such a big mark in the lives of people, and history itself, even to this day, is to profound to ignore. Special definitely, divine???????????

There is a very big world out here and every culture on earth has practically the same story of deities and traditions, some even earlier than the region most claim to be the home of their beliefs.

Man is good for one thing though, when he disagrees, he takes his self across the street, starts yet another religion, and blast those that disagree with him, sadly thats all our history's, as humans.

Exact reason why I believe it is man tampering that led to different religions when in fact the message was the same each time.. One Almighty.

Every culture having similar stories can't be coincidence,obviously a messenger sent from the divine will have similar signs and/or characteristics,which people of later generations since the Messenger passed away may have added to or subtracted from the original.

The way all the persons you have mentioned have made such a big mark in the lives of people, and history itself, even to this day, is to profound to ignore. Special definitely, divine???????????

There is a very big world out here and every culture on earth has practically the same story of deities and traditions, some even earlier than the region most claim to be the home of their beliefs.

Man is good for one thing though, when he disagrees, he takes his self across the street, starts yet another religion, and blast those that disagree with him, sadly thats all our history's, as humans.

So what is right? What is true?

My thoughts on this, it matters not what one believes but how one lives their life. If God exists, if there is an almighty God then as long as you are good, kind, caring, understanding, excepting of others flaws, and aware of your own, then it doesn't matter if you believe, or what you believe.

If there is a heaven, then do your really have to spend your life worshipping in order to be let in? Isn't being a good human being the most important thing?

I have no desire for "religion", no need to hear mans views on my beliefs.

I understand why people congregate to Church, I understand the sense of belonging, the desire to be with like minded people. But I do not know one person who feels the same way I do. Is anyone out there like me? I'm sure there is, but I haven't met them. If I do would I start a religion to preach my beliefs? No. It's still my opinion, and just because others share that opinion, that doesn't mean we're right.

I guess none of us will know until we die, and unfortunately we cannot share what is real with anyone after that.

I continue in my beliefs, not because I think I'm right, but because what I believe works for me and my family.

From what I can see everybody seems to be sort of hard wired to believe what they believe and you have to take it from there. The Bible has several verses that say if you seek God and draw closer to him he will draw closer to you and open your eyes and heart so that is all you really can do.

I do believe that monotheism was the origin of polytheism.
Interesting. May I ask WHY you believe that? Human history tells us that polytheism was with us most of our history, and that all present monotheistic religions appeared somewhere between 2000 BC to 632 AD - so much later. So polytheism is at the origin of monotheism.

Note that Hinduism may be the oldest organized religion, but Paganism as a polytheistic religion reaches as far back as Paleolithic times : 30,000 BC.

:rolleyes:

·

Crede,
Sorry but I have to say it is simply belief.
I am still looking around to explain my idea,but it seems most historical data is incomplete in the sense that the first man and his habits seem to be a bit of guess work as far his religious beliefs go.

EDIT:::
I am still reading articles like these.
Apologetics Press - Monotheism and the Origin of Religion (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2286)

I have no doubt about my beliefs. Just cannot explain in scientific/historical terms how monotheism came before Polytheism or any other form of worship.

Crede, Sorry but I have to say it is simply belief.
I am still looking around to explain my idea,but it seems most historical data is incomplete in the sense that the first man and his habits seem to be a bit of guess work as far his religious beliefs go.
No problem at all. You are free to believe whatever suits you, as far as I am concerned.
Note that the age of Paganism (some 30.000 years) carries historical and logical support, except of course from those who believe that the entire universe is not older than the creationist claimed 6300 years !

;)

·

The way I figure it at the beginning of the human race
According to the Bible
Adam and Eve KNEW God
The Jew's were the first and original
Then later in Genesis it talks about occult and pagan religions
And it also talks about the gentiles but does not state any religion

Of course that is the way I see it and therefore it is my belief and therefore it is based on my assumption and not OSE

Weren't there others mentioned in the Bible after Adam before Moses and Jesus(peace be upon them all)?

There probably were but I was covering the ones I know are mentioned in the Bible.
It would be interesting to learn the history/origins of others that started in OT times and when they came into being.

How long did Adam and Eve lived in the Garden? They were eating from the Tree of Life, so it could have been a long time--time enough that God populated the Land of Nod.

It's all mere stories written by man that want people to believe that it IS God's word. I have a hard time believing that what any of the Bible says is actual truth. My reason for this is because it is the ONLY form of these "stories" It has nothing to back it up.

It's all mere stories written by man that want people to believe that it IS God's word. I have a hard time believing that what any of the Bible says is actual truth. My reason for this is because it is the ONLY form of these "stories" It has nothing to back it up.
Go with the flow, Handyman, go with the flow!

Originally Posted by Handyman2007
It's all mere stories written by man that want people to believe that it IS God's word.

Josh McDowell and other archeologists and many scientists have set out to prove God is just a story and ended up writing books on what convinced them they were wrong.

Does anyone pat any attentions to the facts of science concerning primitive man and the development of such? If you take the Bible literally especially Genesis, it would have you believe that man just suddenly appeared on Earth and was educated and civilized. This is not scientifically accurate or true. Man evolved over millions and millions of years, That HAS been proven.

Has it been proven that even if man developed/evolved physically that that does not necessarily mean they did not have full mental abilities.
Even if man evolved over millions and millions of years would it be reasonable that possibly the Bible starts where man finally was evolved?
Have you ever studied just how primitive man really was thousands of years ago?

How do you explain the pyramids if man was not advanced to some degree?
How are ancient batteries and light bulbs and modern technology explained if man was so primitive in his thinking Yahoo! Search - Web Search (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu.MowaBI1V4B5TdXNyoA?p=advanced+pr imitive+civilization+batteries+&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-305&ei=UTF-8)

No, actually the bible proves that man was created.

No, actually the bible proves that man was created.
With all respect Chuck :

WHAT is that proof?
WHERE do I find that proof?
Or is what you refer to subjective belief "proof"?

:)

·

Isn't it possible to believe in both God and science creating this world?

That's what I believe. Nope, no proof, just what I believe. Science does explain the beginning more realistically. The bibles version, although a nice belief, is a bit far fetched, don't you think?

I could spend the rest of my life trying to accept the bibles version, but it makes no sense. It baffles the mind, therefore isn't it realistic to think that science was involved?

I don't know, science isn't something I'm good at. You could explain till your where blue in the face, it's my worst subject. But the little I do know, well it sounds more realistic to me than God creating something from nothing in 6 days. The complexities of everything in this world, well, it's pretty far fetched.

Not putting down anyone's beliefs, just stating my own, and poorly at that, for that I apologize.

My belief is in both God and science, hand in hand.

I figure it this way God USED science to create the universe. Science is the atoms, molecules,
etc... that God created to create.
The Bible says that God used the things which are not seen to create the things that are seen.
The problem Christians have with science is the evolution of man starting as a one cell and evolving to human form 'or however it goes'. Also the age of the earth but with the gap theory that most Christians do not believe in it makes sense how the earth could be billions of years old.

Isn't it possible to believe in both God and science creating this world?
Science did and does not "create" anything. All science basically does is explain things.
The basis of all science is OSE, Objective Supported Evidence. That knowledge can than be used in other processes and theories.
(Religious) Belief at the other hand makes claims, claims that are not supported with OSE. And any format of discussion on basis of objective supported evidence is strongly discouraged.

But I got your point, alty !

:)

·

Sorry everyone, as I said, science is not a subject I know well. Thanks for your answers NoHelp and Cred.

I guess what I mean to say is that I do believe in Evolution, because of the proof, although admittedly I have not done allot of research regarding evolution, the little I do know and understand leads me to believe.

I do believe that God had a hand in it all, but that is only a belief, perhaps even just a hope.

I'd love to do more research on it, but science is a difficult subject for me, something I cannot get my head around. Trust me, I've tried.

I'm a visual person, my strong points are art, and all the things associated with it, writing, building, painting, etc. Things that require sceintific knowledge, now that I finally have an interest I fear I'm too old to truly grasp most of it. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. ;)

Am I making any sense? I don't know how to convey what I believe, sorry for that.

I really appreciate everyone's input to this discussion. My beliefs are still firm, but I have learned allot more of everyone else's beliefs and why or why not they believe what they do. That's a good thing. :)

I do believe that God had a hand in it all, but that is only a belief, perhaps even just a hope.

I'd love to do more research on it, but science is a difficult subject for me, something I cannot get my head around. Trust me, I've tried.

I'm a visual person, my strong points are art, and all the things associated with it, writing, building, painting, etc. Things that require sceintific knowledge, now that I finally have an interest I fear I'm too old to truly grasp most of it. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. ;)



Same here Alty

NoHelp, you don't seem scientifically challenged. ;):)

Evolution is not scientific proof but theory. Theory is an explanation of what they think could have happen but it is not truth. Scientific theory is always changing and on going...

Evolution is not scientific proof but theory. Theory is an explanation of what they think could have happen but it is not truth. Scientific theory is always changing and on going.....
James Van Praagh : Medium, or Conman? (http://www.holysmoke.org/praagh6.htm)

Hello Joe ! Not really ! That statement is a creationist's claim.

Evolution is not just a theory, but a Scientific Theory.
The Evolution Theory provides a view on how the first cell developed into all life on earth today and does that as accurate as possible.
The evidence and validity of any scientific finding is tested and peer retested, and frequently updated to increase its OSE level.

That is in stark contrast to any religious suggestion, which normally is beyond any questioning, and is never backed up by any objective supported evidence (OSE).

So :

Evolution is a Scientific Theory backed up by OSE, and is to be considered as near factual as possible, although not 100 % on all parts. That is for many reasons impossible.

A theory is an explanation of what people think could be correct, but it is not yet proved.

A Scientific Theory is as near as possible to what you call the truth, and is always checked and rechecked again to ensure that the OSE level keeps increasing.

·
LINK : 15 answers to creationists (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=15-answers-to-creationist)
·

:rolleyes:

·

Evolution is not scientific proof but theory. Theory is an explanation of what they think could have happen but it is not truth. Scientific theory is always changing and on going.....

Looks to me like JH was saying scientific theory but just didn't state it with both words proof and theory... he DID say scientific theory in the end.

Looks to me like JH was saying scientific theory but just didn't state it with both words proof and theory.....he DID say scientific theory in the the end.
JH quoted James Van Praagh, but that conman was wrong there!

A Scientific Theory is not always changing. That is simply not true.
Any scientific finding is tested and peer retested, and frequently updated to increase its OSE level. The higher it's OSE level gets, the smaller the changes will become.

Even Einstein's finding on relativity did not put Newton's gravity theory upside down, but amended it to get closer to the reality.

:rolleyes:

Hmmmm : I liked Tweety more than your current graphic !

:rolleyes:

·

Well when I get around to changing it I will have to look Tweety up.

Well when I get around to changing it I will have to look Tweety up.


This one goes well with your island theme :)

11022

I feel a conspiracy here Cred0 just told me I need a Tweety altvar...
Am I being ganged up on??

I feel a conspiracy here Cred0 just told me I need a Tweety altvar.....
am I being ganged up on???

No, no, I saw your post where you said you'd look for a tweetie avy, just thought I'd help. :)

Sweet Alty, I just ran onto your thread. I read several pages. It is always interesting to me how other's believe and why.

I would like to just share a thought:

You sought to know your father and he communed and communicated with you for many years. You came to truly know his heart and he knew yours. A letter or note is jotted down by someone who knows your father personally and another person finds it and reads it. It makes no sense to them and they toss it aside saying it had no relevance to their life and appeared to be conflicting. You see them toss it aside and you pick it up. You read it and because your father had someone else jot it down for him at his bequest, you knew without a doubt that it was his words being written to you from his heart. You totally understood what was written and there was no conflict because you KNEW your father and his love. It all made perfect sense to you. For you, it would be difficult to read that note and understand how anyone could ever misunderstand that note or think it was conflicted. You had placed your trust in your father and you trusted his words, though they were written by someone else at his request. You took a leap of faith as a little child to jump into his arms even though it didn't make sense to you. It looked to you that you would fall and be hurt terribly but your dad kept saying to trust him, he would not let you down so you chose to trust him and you jumped and true to his word, he caught you and it was wonderful fun!!! (Granted not all earthly dads show this kind of love for their children that yours did but when they do, how much easier it is to understand the love a Heavenly Father could have for us.)

I placed my trust in God through His son Jesus and what He did on the cross a long time ago. I read His word, though written by others inspired by God to write it. But God is the one who spoke truth to my heart as I read the Bible. I can read one scripture and it holds little for me on a given day yet on another day, I read the same verse and God ministers His truth of that scripture to my heart. I know it is true for that day and that circumstance as well as I know my name. I took a leap of faith when I felt God quietly speak to me (not audibly) but still I knew He was saying to trust Him, receive Him, allow Him to be a part of my life and let him catch me even when I think I might fall because He will be true to His word and He has been.

My daughter-in-law was raised Catholic as you mentioned you were, school, church and home. She knew about God. She knew scriptures, she knew the Bible stories, she knew what she had been taught to believe but gradually, she began to read the Bible on her own to find out what was truth to her, not to her parents or to her church but to her. God spoke to her heart and she asked God to forgive her sins and come into her life. I was not there during that time as she lives in another state but she shared with her husband that she felt she had been cheated all those years. It is different knowing all about God and knowing him personally, sort of like someone knowing about your daddy but not really knowing him personally. It makes all the difference in the world. She has blossomed into a person, different from the one that I first came to know.

(Please understand I am not saying that Catholics do not know God personally. I just shared one story of one person who went through the motions but it was never real to her until she began to seek God in a personal way to have a personal relationship with Him. This happens in all kinds of churches and being in church doesn't make one a Christian any more than being in a barn, makes one a horse or cow or chicken or even a farmer.) LOL

No one can convince another to change their beliefs. I can share, you can share, all these other friends can share what is in our hearts with one another but ultimately, it is up to each of us to choose our path of belief.

I love to share my faith with others. Like you, I choose not to argue. It serves no purpose. We each choose as I say. Thanks for letting me share. You know me Alty, I tend to write epics!!!!!!!! : )

No, no, I saw your post where you said you'd look for a tweetie avy, just thought I'd help. :)

:D I guess I am ganging up on me too :eek:

My daughter-in-law was raised Catholic as you mentioned you were, school, church and home.

Just to raise a point of me. I personally don't really like catholism. That's because in EVERY catholic church I know, I can see a sculpture of Jesus on the cross, or some virgin of some sort, etc. That goes in contradiction to the word of God, which says that you shall not glorify any idol. Am I right?


She knew about God. She knew scriptures, she knew the Bible stories, she knew what she had been taught to believe but gradually, she began to read the Bible on her own to find out what was truth to her, not to her parents or to her church but to her. God spoke to her heart and she asked God to forgive her sins and come into her life. I was not there during that time as she lives in another state but she shared with her husband that she felt she had been cheated all those years. It is different knowing all about God and knowing him personally, sort of like someone knowing about your daddy but not really knowing him personally. It makes all the difference in the world. She has blossomed into a person, different from the one that I first came to know.


I agree totally!

Hey there Uncky, I think we can find something in all churches that we don't agree with. For me, I had to just find the church that I agreed the most with, that I felt went along with what I understood about the Bible as I studied it and that the people (as much as is within them) practice what they preach!! LOL Goodness, I fall short there at times. I am just thankful that I know God and His love and mercy and forgiveness and He does guide me although I do get stubborn in my spirit at times and rebel a bit.

That human part of me sure does get in the way sometimes. LOL

Ideally, I would combine a couple of churches and be real happy because one puts into practice one thing that for me I feel is important but not another and vice versa. We don't live in a perfect world that's for sure and no church is perfect. But still, we come here and share and that is a positive and good thing and I am so thankful for this site and thankful I have met you here.

While I believe that being active in a church encourages one to study the Bible more perhaps and is a great place to have a healthy exchange of ideas and most churches meet some needs that arise in families, I do not believe one has to be in a church every time the door is open to be a witness for the Lord or to minister to peoples needs. I think the church is a great base and perhaps attending might keep me more grounded as the world throws things my way, but I was at home when I asked God in Jesus Name to forgive my sins and come into my heart and be my Lord and Savior.

We live by a highway and we have had numerous people come to our door, either out of gas or with a flat tire or needing to use our phone and we welcome those anytime we can help because we do believe that God led us to buy the house where we live now to help others in need. We even had a guy come recently to our door late at night that his truck had been torched with him in it and he had been burned but ran all the way to our house. We were able to calm him and pray with him until help arrived. But one day, we were getting ready to go to church and the door bell rang. I was busy getting ready and later my husband came in and I asked who was at the door. He said it was a guy walking and asking directions to the Mission downtown. I asked if he invited him in. He said NO, we are getting ready to go to church. I think he and I both "GOT IT" about the same time when I said, "Why are we going to church? We are to help and love people. Where did he go?" Well, we got in the car and told the guy if he wanted to go to church with us, we would gladly take him to the mission after church which he did and we called ahead so they would have a hot meal and clean bed for the man when we took him after church. It was a real eye opener in one way to see a person in need but being caught up in the act of going to church. LOL Our children were small and I think was a great time of teaching that we are to love people and help meet their needs when we can and that God gives us opportunities if we are just in tune to them. God is good and a gracious God... I sure would be in sad shape other wise!! LOL

Post #124

I would like to just share a thought

No one can convince another to change their beliefs. I can share, you can share, all these other friends can share what is in our hearts with one another but ultimately, it is up to each of us to choose our path of belief.



Ownership for your choice and path in life. Responsibility and Accountability for those choices. I very much enjoyed the thoughts you shared.

~ Child of God

Post #124



Ownership for your choice and path in life. Responsibility and Accountability for those choices. I very much enjoyed the thoughts you shared.

~ Child of God

Thank you sndbay! I am always so wordy! You basically put it in a nutshell. Thank you! :p

Actually Rebbie, I wasn't raised Catholic, I just went to Catholic school, because that's where my friends went and I wanted to be with them. I was ostracized from everything regarding their beliefs because I wasn't Catholic, that's why I'm against organized religion for myself.

Officially I was raised as part of the Lutheran church, in a way. We did attend church twice a year, christmas and easter, but that's it. My parents didn't shove religion down my throat, they did believe in God and told me so, but they very much believed that I had to find my own way, my own beliefs, and they gave me the freedom to do so, I will forever be thankful to them for letting me be who I am. :)

Some info about me;

10 years of catholic school opened my eyes to man made beliefs, because, to me, that's what they are. I was considered a bastard in their eyes, because my parents weren't married in the catholic church, because my mother refused to convert. My parents where married in the Lutheran church, and were told by a catholic priest that in the eyes of God they weren't really married and all their children (I'm the only one) would be bastards.

While attending catholic school there were many times when the entire school went to catholic services. I was not allowed to receive communion, because I'm not catholic. That gave the kids and sadly the teachers another reason to ostracize me. My father even went to the church to speak with the priest, tell him that I was being bullied because I wasn't catholic. The priests response "If you baptized her in the catholic religion then she wouldn't have these problems, but until her soul is saved there's nothing I can do". All this because of a simple wafer bought in the local store.

I'm not trying to make anyone here accept my beliefs, I'm simply trying to understand why so many people put stock in a book written by man, in an institution run by man, I simply don't understand why.

I know that I will never find a church that accepts my views, nor do I wish to search for one. I have read the bible and do not see the work of God, but the stories of men. I do not preach to my children, I simply tell them what I believe and then accept whatever path they choose. If my children grow up not believing, if that is what they choose then that's okay with me. They are good kids, they have empathy for every living thing in this world, they know love and give love, they are kind and intelligent, and really, in the end, isn't that what matters most?

I respect everyone's right to believe what they want. I guess I'm just trying to find my place in this, where I stand, because I've never met anyone with the same beliefs as me.

Thank you all for responding, I value every thought. I don't always agree, but I do value what you say and I respect what you believe. :)

I respect everyone's right to believe what they want.
That's the spirit ! Nobody should be forced to believe something he/she does not or can not support.
Unfortunately the more fundamental people are, the less tolerant they become to other people's right to believe whatever they prefer. The post about non-Christian being referred to as non-belief spoke volumes...


Thank you all for responding, I value each and every thought. I don't always agree, but I do value what you say and I respect what you believe.
The pleasure was in this case all mine, and I fully agree with what you stated.

:)

·

10 years of catholic school opened my eyes to man made beliefs, because, to me, that's what they are. I was considered a bastard in their eyes, because my parents weren't married in the catholic church, because my mother refused to convert. My parents where married in the Lutheran church, and were told by a catholic priest that in the eyes of God they weren't really married and all their children (I'm the only one) would be bastards.


:)

Alty,

With all do respect.. Just because Some priests or churches had that belief, does not mean that, that belief comes from the bible. It comes from man... Not all catholic churches are the same and not all the preists are the same. I have had many unusual and not so good experiances at church, but it almost feels as if bad talk of catholic is norm. Not all catholics feel the same and not all of the practises are the same or beliefs from church to church or priest to priest.

For instance, my mom had a divorce, from my father because he was a cheater and drunk. Legit reasons for separation. Years later, she wanted to get married in the catholic church.. Catholic church refused and said she could not get remarried in the church because she is still considered married in the eyes of God and the church.

She had to go to a baptist church and they had no problem marrying her.
They also gave my aunt a hard time. She was not married and they wanted to baptise there child and they did not want to do it.

I think that man is limited.. Many people assume what the church teaches or priests preach is from the bible, and that is where so many misconceptions of the bible come from because people abuse it and twist things for their own agendas.

Just remember do not lump everybody under the same tree just because they may be catholic. Like myself, but as I said before I do not feel that I belong to any church. Because I belong to God... Although I feel comfortable in certain churches then others. Things have changed a lot too.

Also remember being forced to go to confession all the time. I felt like I had to come up with sins that I committed.. It was almost like I was being forced to confess things even though as a kid I felt like I had nothing to confess.

Just wanted to share this with you and others.

My biggest problem with the Bible (as I've stated before) is that it was written in a time span of 1500 years and by over 40 men... we know that a sentence said in a circle is never the same when it ends as it was when it began, and that takes what, 10 minutes. So it is hard to wrap your head around those facts.

As far as the old testemant isn't that all forgotten, forgiven now? I don't know of any Christians who follow it..

That's just my problem in understanding it! :)

Thank you Cred. :)

It has also been a pleasure reading everyone's responses. I am glad that this thread has gone so well, I had allot of reservations when I wrote it.

I know that to Christians I am an anomaly. How can I believe without believing in the bible or Church? Do I really believe?

I do believe in God, perhaps he isn't the same God that Christians believe in, I'm still trying to figure that out. Darnit, 37 years and I still have questions.;)

The reason for my beliefs are my own, I cannot even begin to explain. Even if I did explain, I cannot prove that my experiences or reasons are fact, heck, I sometimes wonder if it is, maybe it was lack of oxygen one night. ;)

Part of my faith comes from the fact that I cannot imagine never again seeing my parents. I hope that heaven is real, I hope that when I die I will be reunited with them and all of the loved ones I have lost. The thought that I won't, that's too much to bear.

Thank you everyone once again for your thoughts, your beliefs, and for sharing them with me. :)

Alty,

With all do respect.. Just because Some priests or churches had that belief, does not mean that, that belief comes from the bible. It comes from man... Not all catholic churches are the same and not all the preists are the same. I have had many unusual and not so good experiances at church, but it almost feels as if bad talk of catholic is norm. Not all catholics feel the same and not all of the practises are the same or beliefs from church to church or priest to priest.

For instance, my mom had a divorce, from my father because he was a cheater and drunk. Legit reasons for seperation. Years later, she wanted to get married in the catholic church.. Catholic church refused and said she could not get remarried in the church because she is still considered married in the eyes of God and the church.

She had to go to a baptist church and they had no problem marrying her.
They also gave my aunt a hard time. She was not married and they wanted to baptise there child and they did not want to do it.

I think that man is limited.. Many people assume what the church teaches or priests preach is from the bible, and that is where so many misconceptions of the bible come from because people abuse it and twist things for their own agendas.

Just remember do not lump everybody under the same tree just because they may be catholic. Like myself, but as I said before I do not feel that I belong to any church. Because I belong to God.... Although I feel comfortable in certain churches then others. Things have changed a lot too.

Also remember being forced to go to confession all the time. I felt like I had to come up with sins that I committed.. It was almost like I was being forced to confess things even though as a kid I felt like I had nothign to confess.

Just wanted to share this with you and others.


Oh Joe,

I'm so sorry if it sounded like I was saying all Catholics are bad, that's truly not what I meant.

I have many friends that are Catholic, they are wonderful people, and they've never looked down on me because of my beliefs. You are one of those people Joe, and I do consider you a friend.

I guess I'm not explaining myself well. Honestly, in order to do so I'd have to write an entire book, I don't think anyone wants to read it here. ;)

Catholic school isn't the only reason I turned away from organized religion. I was a member of the Lutheran church , I've done research and gone to services at Pentecostal churches, baptist churches and many others. Organized religion just isn't for me, because it's run by man, and therefore it's mans beliefs that are being preached.

I don't know how to go about making everyone understand without condeming others beliefs,I'm sorry if that's the way it came out. I guess I'm going about this all wrong.

I hope you know that I would never intentionally say anything to hurt you, I'm sorry if I did.

Alty.

Actually Rebbie, I wasn't raised Catholic, I just went to Catholic school, because that's where my friends went and I wanted to be with them. I was ostracized from everything regarding their beliefs because I wasn't Catholic, that's why I'm against organized religion for myself.

Officially I was raised as part of the Lutheran church, in a way. We did attend church twice a year, christmas and easter, but that's it. My parents didn't shove religion down my throat, they did believe in God and told me so, but they very much believed that I had to find my own way, my own beliefs, and they gave me the freedom to do so, I will forever be thankful to them for letting me be who I am. :)

Some info about me;

10 years of catholic school opened my eyes to man made beliefs, because, to me, that's what they are. I was considered a bastard in their eyes, because my parents weren't married in the catholic church, because my mother refused to convert. My parents where married in the Lutheran church, and were told by a catholic priest that in the eyes of God they weren't really married and all their children (I'm the only one) would be bastards.

While attending catholic school there were many times when the entire school went to catholic services. I was not allowed to receive communion, because I'm not catholic. That gave the kids and sadly the teachers another reason to ostracize me. My father even went to the church to speak with the priest, tell him that I was being bullied because I wasn't catholic. The priests response "If you baptized her in the catholic religion then she wouldn't have these problems, but until her soul is saved there's nothing I can do". All this because of a simple wafer bought in the local store.

I'm not trying to make anyone here accept my beliefs, I'm simply trying to understand why so many people put stock in a book written by man, in an institution run by man, I simply don't understand why.

I know that I will never find a church that accepts my views, nor do I wish to search for one. I have read the bible and do not see the work of God, but the stories of men. I do not preach to my children, I simply tell them what I believe and then accept whatever path they choose. If my children grow up not believing, if that is what they choose then that's okay with me. They are good kids, they have empathy for every living thing in this world, they know love and give love, they are kind and intelligent, and really, in the end, isn't that what matters most?

I respect everyone's right to believe what they want. I guess I'm just trying to find my place in this, where I stand, because I've never met anyone with the same beliefs as me.

Thank you all for responding, I value each and every thought. I don't always agree, but I do value what you say and I respect what you believe. :)

Thank you for sharing you experiences. I do understand some of what you shared because I went to catechism with a very close friend. I was treated much the same as you not just by the church but even by my friend's sisters. I have other friends who were raised in the Catholic church and attended public school so there is many variations to all of our experiences. My one friend was never allowed to visit my church but she could take me to hers. Seems a little closed to me. I was young at the time and remember feeling that was a bit unfair to my friend as well as to me. I had another friend who, because he attended a morning get together at the high school that professed Christ, was called on the carpet so to speak by his priest. They had long conversations and he ended up stopping attending anything to do with God or the church, any church. One of our friends was the President of "Teen for Christ". The year he graduated, he went to Viet Nam and was killed. I had no contact with the guy who was his best friend for many years. He contacted me three years ago, via Classmates. He had a car fall on him and was in painful therapy. He said I kept coming to mind but he didn't know why. (I believe that when it came down to life and death, he remembered I was in the group that Jed led and was hoping to find some answers to things he had dealt with since high school. As we e-mailed and he got better, he and his wife commissioned me to do a drawing for them. He and his daughter came to pick it up. He asked if my husband and myself would mind finding where Jed was buried and go to the cemetery with him when he came home to see his mother. We did. I had shared how bad things happen to good people and because of Jed's witness to him, as his friend, he was still thinking about Jed's faith. He had no peace about Jed and about his own situation in his beliefs. He was so broken by our friends death, he was not able to attend services, just sat on the hood of his car out by the curb and had cried so hard. After the first visit to the cemetery and sharing about his conflict and my resolve I had found, he went alone to the cemetery and stayed a couple of hours and prayed. Result, he prayed and asked God in Jesus Name to come into his heart and he then had peace. He came to our home and shared this and said he had never known such freedom and peace. He lives in another state. He says his marriage is better and a sister he had such ill feelings toward, he now feels compassion for. That is not the work of man. I don't think one can explain it in human terms. But as I sorted through all of that and thought of Jed losing his life, I had to wonder, to us, his death seemed premature but had he lived on, would his life had such an impact on this friend. I don't know. All I know is that the memory of how this guy chose to live did have an impact and caused a permanent change, at least in one person's life.

I don't blame you for having the feelings you have. You were treated badly, to the point of abuse in my opinion. I would have been kickin' and screamin' at that point in my life. I was not so tempered as I am now AND I have a long way to go even now. I look at my mother and wonder, why can things just not be absorbed by osmosis from parent to child. LOL She is so full of grace and peace and is so calm then there is me, a bit mouthy and much more temperamental than she.

I understand that you are not trying to make anyone here accept your beliefs! You have valid questions and statements and with good reason!! Grrrrr... I kind of want to go punch their lights out now for those kids hurting you. (See what I mean, I get to be a mama bear even now). Sweet Alty, I appreciate your post. It opens subjects up to be shared. That's a good thing! I understand that you don't agree with all things shared on this thread but you do give respect to each of us and for that, I thank you! I respect you for putting this thread out there. That took courage in my opinion.

For me, believing the Bible as God's word is a choice I make each day. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." It does take a leap of faith and I guess I am just sharing with you that I made that leap of faith and for me, it has proven correct 100% of the time. I am not saying my life has been easy. As you know, I have had death threats on my children, house was set on fire and my daughter's car was blown up in our driveway by a stalker and when she went to college, he stalked me and I was in bed for almost a year with an illness that took a loooong time to diagnose, yet even then, I had a peace that as the Bible says, "passes all understanding" you know, like of man. I don't understand it but I accept it. I realize it is difficult to sort all this out in all of our minds but it is good to share with each other. I think we all gain from it. You are a neat gal with such a wonderful family, your children are beautiful. You have been a warm and wonderful friend to me on this site and I appreciate you very much Alty.

Oh Rebbie, my dear sweet Rebbie, thank you so much for those wonderful words. I appreciate you too my dear, you are such a kind caring person, never a mean word to anyone. You say you have a temper? Hmmm, I've never seen it. I imagine it would be like a fly beating an elephant, because you are too kind hearted to do any serious damage to anyone. :)

There are many things I don't understand, hence the questions, but I do know my belief, and I accept it without question. Thank you for sharing your beliefs with me.

:D I guess I am ganging up on me too :eek:

Ha, ha, I guess you are. :)

Oh Rebbie, my dear sweet Rebbie, thank you so much for those wonderful words. I appreciate you too my dear, you are such a kind caring person, never a mean word to anyone. You say you have a temper? Hmmm, I've never seen it. I imagine it would be like a fly beating an elephant, because you are too kind hearted to do any serious damage to anyone. :)

There are many things I don't understand, hence the questions, but I do know my belief, and I accept it without question. Thank you for sharing your beliefs with me.

I had to laugh as you described a fly beating an elephant!! :eek: That was a terrific visual... LOL :p

It was my pleasure to share with you and I appreciate you opening up and sharing things so personal to your life. :)

Alty - your belief in God w/o a 'belief' in organized religion isn't all that unusual. While I'm a full-fledged atheist now, I once thought I believed in God. On my way to realizing I never really did, I went through a period where it was only organized religion I shunned, mostly because I saw it as very hypocritical ('our religion is based on love but if you're too different we don't want you around and/or are sure you'll be condemned to hell"). Even then I knew that not all people of faith were like that, but the 'orders' from church elders made it seem as though churches were too 'exclusive.' The last time I was in church was when the minister railed about communism for his sermon instead of teaching any type of gospel.

As I went from Christian to agnostic to atheist, I realized that the only reason I believed in my youth was because that's all I knew. I didn't know anyone didn't believe. (I grew up on the northern edge of the Bible Belt.) Mom was a strong believer, but not a church-goer. No aspect of religion was pushed on me, it was just a part of life where I grew up.

Oh Joe,

I'm so sorry if it sounded like I was saying all Catholics are bad, that's truly not what I meant.

I have many friends that are Catholic, they are wonderful people, and they've never looked down on me because of my beliefs. You are one of those people Joe, and I do consider you a friend.

I guess I'm not explaining myself well. Honestly, in order to do so I'd have to write an entire book, I don't think anyone wants to read it here. ;)

Catholic school isn't the only reason I turned away from organized religion. I was a memeber of the Lutheran church , I've done research and gone to services at Pentecostal churches, baptist churches and many others. Organized religion just isn't for me, because it's run by man, and therefore it's mans beliefs that are being preached.

I don't know how to go about making everyone understand without condeming others beliefs,I'm sorry if that's the way it came out. I guess I'm going about this all wrong.

I hope you know that I would never intentionally say anything to hurt you, I'm sorry if I did.

Alty.

I was just trying to explain things in my own way. That's all. No offence taken. I do understand alty and I did make that clear in previous posts... When I said how I am only a visitor at churches. I do not belong in any church because I belong to God.

I really do feel we are more a like then you realize.. There is this person that would say you're a universalist.. Meaning your not confined to any man made rituals, customs and churches. I feel there is nothing for you to explain.. It is black and white.

Just for example, somebody called me a closet universalist because I do not conform to a lot of beliefs that are held by many churches or denominations or religions.

For example: Certain churches teach there peoples that if you do not get your child baptised.. If anything happens to that child. The child is not considered saved. In my own personal view, and Gods word within my heart. Gods spirit is already within us and none of us have to be baptised to be saved because I feel that we are already are, that God has baptised us with his spirit as soon as we are given life. I feel that church and the baptism of a child is more of a show for the church and family.

Some of my family call it laziness but I believe that there is no reason to get a child baptised. The church teaches otherwise, but according to the bible only adults got baptised as a sign of their commitment to God, when they were OLD ENOUGH TO MAKE THAT CHOICE Themselves..

I hope you know where I am going with this.. There are many things it does not matter what church or religion I go to. It is not the same as my personal beliefs and I do not think any of them would be exactly what I am looking for because I have my own personal set beliefs that I think are the right ones that I feel God wants me to make.

(;

... As far as the old testament isn't that all forgotten, forgiven now? I don't know of any Christians who follow it...? Thats just my problem in understanding it! :)
Not correct : most fundamental Christians still insist that Genesis is a literal , historical, and factual representation of the origin of the universe and life on earth.

:rolleyes:

·

Not correct : most fundamental Christians still insist that Genesis is a literal , historical, and factual representation of the origin of the universe and life on earth.

:rolleyes:

·

That is correct.

Rebbie, thanks for your reply. Concerning the practice thing for the preachings, I find that here also. Well, I've ever met someone preaching EXACTLY the same thing on two different Sundays. But it's perhaps a good thing if there are newbies, or that someone has not verymuch understand the preach.

Alty, someone can be a christian without going to church, you know. The church, I think is only there to 'help' you, even if in some, you don't really receive that help. The church helps in the way that you 'go and make of all nations, God's disciples'. But if you keep a good relation with God, I'm sure that you don't need to go to church, because there may also be people influencing you to go towards the wrong path. Thanks for having shared your experiences, you, Rebbie, Joe and others.

Peace be with you all.

... someone can be a christian without going to church ...
Yes someone could. But what is "wrong" with people being Deist??

What is more important to a deity (if such an entity exists) :

- That people believe in it's existence ?
- That people believe in all the apparently human created dogmatic claims about that deity ?

Or is it even possible that such a deity couldn't care less what human beings believe ?

Salam / Peace be with you too !

:)

·

Alty, someone can be a christian without going to church, you know. The church, i think is only there to 'help' you, even if in some, you don't really receive that help.
Ann Landers once said that church is a hospital for sinners.

Dear ALL,
Whatever we think and believe comes from one source. Since you believe in God not the Bible that is great. It would be worse if you could not believe in God.

The Bible is the sacred scriptures. May be what is Sacred, and Scripture? This is where your problems originates.
Shortly, Sacred refers to Holiness, or sanctity, is the state of being holy or sacred, that is, set apart for the worship or service of gods. It could also mean being set apart to pursue (or to already have achieved) a sacred state or goal, such as Nirvana. It is often ascribed to people, objects, times, or places.
Then scripture is the writings of Prophets, and people of God.

To sum up, the Bible is a book for holy words written by prophets and people of God whom you believe. If God the one you believe has His people,is it wrong to trust them. They wrote it by the directions from God. And God wanted His words to reach all the people in the form they can easily understand (languages).
So my friend, if you believe in God, His words and instructions are found in the Bible. Read it and you shall be enlighted.
Thanks.

Hujambo, PIMA !

It would be worse if you could not believe in God.
Worse ? Why is that?


The Bible is the sacred scriptures.
For a Christian. Not for a Deist !


So ... if you believe in God, His words and instructions are found in the Bible
That is what you BELIEVE. But is that so? Surely not for a deist !

Kwaheri from ex-Dar-es-Salam inhabitant !

:rolleyes:

·

Pima, I know very well what Christians claim the bible to be, my belief is different.

Let me tell you a little secret. Yes, I believe in God, without believing in the bible or church. I realize that this disturbs allot of people. How can she deny the bible, how can she turn her back on church, can we change her mind, can we save her soul?

Let me assure you, my soul is just fine, and so is my mind (although I'm sure a few of you think I'm off my rocker ;)). I have given all of this allot of thought, this wasn't something I just decided over night. In fact, until Cred gave my beliefs a name, I thought that I was the only one who believes what I believe.

We are all people, human beings, and as such we are fallible. Yes, we make mistakes, we "sin" and we either learn, move on, live good lives, treat others kindly, or we don't.

Christians aren't immune to sin, they aren't any "better" because they go to church and read the bible. As for communion, do you really think that a wafer and a sip of wine is going to make a difference? Especially if you go home after church to beat your wife and kids, cheat on your taxes and molest your daughter (yes, my childhood friends very catholic family was just like that).

Sorry, but you all will have to do without me in the fold, I'm happy were I am, I just wish you al could accept it.

Christians aren't immune to sin, they aren't any "better" because they go to church and read the bible.
Did someone say they are?


As for communion, do you really think that a wafer and a sip of wine is going to make a difference?
No one says they will. That's not the reason why Christians take Communion... "to make a difference."
I suspect you have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. In fact, I'm not even sure you had a baby in that bathwater in the first place.

Wondergirl, you are right, there was no baby with the bathwater.

I never asked for anyone to tell me to read the bible, I simply asked why so many people put their faith in a man written book.

I stated from the beginning that I wouldn't change my mind, but still I'm told to read the bible, read the bible, read the bible. I've read it, many times, have no desire to read it again. Here's the latest request.


So my friend, if you believe in God, His words and instructions are found in the Bible. Read it and you shall be enlighted.

I know that most of you think that the only way is through the bible, really, I understand. But why can't someone believe in God without the bible, without church?

Okay, I'm just getting upset, and I'm obviously upsetting other people, so maybe it's time to close the thread, it was a bad idea, I should have known better.

Peace to all, I'll request that it's closed.

Alty alty alty,

Your not upsetting me at all. I do not know why you would request the thread to be closed? Why are you getting upset?

I believe Gods word is written within each of us. Not necessarily in a book but within our soul, spirit. So alty there is no reason for you to get upset..

Edit:::

Not everybody is going to agree or understand, but that is going to be the case no matter who you talk to.

Getting defensive just because somebody else is, is not going to help at all. Discussion is needed here on this thread, because then maybe you will open Other Christians eyes in a way they have never been able to see God before.

That is one of your goals or purposes is to share with people what the TRUE GOD IS.

But why can't someone believe in God without the bible, without church?
They can and do all the time.


Okay, I'm just getting upset, and I'm obviously upsetting other people, so maybe it's time to close the thread, it was a bad idea, I should have known better.
This time there's a baby in that bathwater that you are throwing out. Let's save the baby and toss only the bathwater.

Do you realize, Alty, that you, at least here on AMHD, very much show that God is in your heart and is working in your life? Jesus said, there are two great commandments: 1) Love God 2) Love others. Isn't that what you do? Seems to me it is.

Okay Joe and Wondergirl, now I'm misty eyed.

I just don't want anyone to be upset, least of all me. ;)

I really don't know why I started this post, what did I hope to accomplish, what did I hope to discuss? In a way I guess I just wanted to state my opinion, my beliefs, and see if anyone else felt the same way I did. I should have gone about it differently I guess. 20/20 hindsight is a b*tch. ;)

I'm sorry I got defensive, if you knew me, my life, all my experiences, and felt the same way about them that I did, then you'd understand. No one can walk in someone else's shoes, and it's so hard to explain clearly why I believe what I believe.

If you believe in the bible then great, I hope no one thinks that I'm saying don't read it, even though it sounds like I am saying just that. Did that make any sense?

It's not for me, and I have read it, church isn't for me either, and I have gone to many different ones, many different times.

I have felt God, but I haven't ever seen him. I've experienced things that are too real, and too surreal for me to think it's just a weird event, or a twist of fate. I believe, but I've been told so many times that it's not enough, that my belief isn't real or acceptable because I won't accept the bible as the word of God and I won't go to church to hear men preach about something they read from the bible.

I have been told that I'm going to hell because of my beliefs, I've been told that I'm a terrible person because I won't read the bible and accept it. All this from Christians, wonderful, peace loving, God loving, God fearing, bible reading, church going Christians.

The other day the little girl across the street who is one year older than Sydney and is Mormon, told my little girl that she is going to go to hell because she doesn't go to church. Sydney came home crying, asking if it was true. I've told them that God is a wonderful, wonderful being, forgiving, kind, caring, loving, and that he would never turn his back on them. All that was shot down because of a few hurtful words, and for the first time in a long time I wanted to scream at the top of my lungs "I'll see you in hell!"

I'm sorry that this is so long. I'm sorry that I've been snippy today, but seeing the hurt in my daughters eyes brought back so many hurtful memories, and those memories still hurt today. Now she has to deal with this, all because of narrow minded people who think it's their way or the highway.

Okay, enough. I won't close the thread, but please, no more telling me to read the bible, I have, cover to cover and it's not for me, it never will be. As for my kids, I'll talk when they ask, teach when they have a question, and tell them exactly what my parents told me, it's up to you to find your path, and when you do, don't let anyone steer you somewhere else.

As for the two of you, Wondergirl and Joe, thank you. :)

I am sorry that your daughter went through that pain... but you know that it is not true and hopefully your daughter is reassured by your words that it is not true..

God is not a hateful god. God is a loving God. Love is the greatest thing in the world and that is what your showing us and your children Alty.

I hope you know that Not all Christians believe what was told to you, or your daughter.

Take care Alty.

I do know that Joe, but because I've encountered so many Christians that do, I tend to put up a wall first, judge every word, because I'm just waiting for negativity and judgement.

I do know not to judge someone else because of their beliefs, and I try really hard not to, but I've been judged many times because of my beliefs, and in a negative way, so I have my shield up and ready at all times. I am learning to listen and not judge, but I've been doing this for a long time, it's hard to change your ways. ;)

So, having said that, forgive me if I get testy, snippy and b*tchy, it happens, and I am trying, really I am. :)

Peace. :)

Hi Alty,
I can understand your frustration at those that know they are right. I shared it for a time until I came to realize that they were trying to hold onto something to help them through, as we all do! I think having to work to establish a personal relationship with the God that I understand, has made me see to put nothing else between HIM, and me, and that's what I hold onto to get me through, but I understand those who need the ceremonies, and tradition, to help them bring it home to them.

Never, as hard as it is, let the ideas of others separate you from that relationship that guides your life, and you can bet, they won't either, so you see we humans are not that different, no matter the labels, dogma, or tradition of those that claim to be different.

This is a great thread ALTY, and you know that it one of the few times that peaceful debate has gone on, by such a diverse set of people, in these threads. Don't be frustrated, just understand that sometimes we can't help but believe what we do, we just do.

Okay Tal, now there's a tear running down my face. Thank you for your words, they mean so much.

Okay kids, let's keep talking, I promise I'll listen, and I also promise to tell you if I don't agree, after all, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. No comments about the old dog part. ;)

I had a long talk with my little girl today, and I told her that what her friend said was wrong, and that God didn't like what she said, because God doesn't like people to be hurtful and mean to each other.

You know what she did. She went back to her friend today, after many days of not talking to her, and she said. " I'm going to heaven too, my mommy says so, and if you're lucky, we'll get to play there together, but not if you're mean, because God doesn't like that". Way to go Sydney! :)

Alty, God comes to us where we are. He doesn't ask you to make the first move; He makes it. We don't find Him; He finds us.

I'm glad He found you.

Alty, the bible is only a tool to help you understand God, for those asking questions, for... I think most of us do. But if you feel that you're not in such a need to read, it's your choice, and it is comprehensible. The christians you were talking about have themselves a lot of way to go before reaching Christlike, that was the moto of my church last year, and this year is 'Choose Life'. And yes many 'christians' are not really ones as they do not put into practice what they are told in church. Each teaching is supposed to bring about positive changes in life, new state of mind to become a habit, new practices to use everyday. And don't worry, keeping a relation with God is the least necessary.

Hello Altenweg !

And I thought this board was called "Religious Discussions", but from the actual posts here it seems to be more the Christianity missionary board!!
In their religious blindness certain Christians fail to understand that what they believe is just that : BELIEF.

You have clearly indicated to believe in God. But you do NOT want to be part of any specific church or denomination, and you reject the Bible as God's word. So you are a convinced Deist, just like many of the Founding Fathers were.
The continuing attempts to convince you that Christianity is the one and only "true" religion is saddening. It shows the intolerance of many here to accept that other people here have different religious views, views that are just as valid as anyone else's.
Because as far as I know so far in the entire human existence there has never been any format of OSE for any religious belief.

Christians are allowed to believe whatever they prefer to believe. But that does not give them the right to continue their attempt to convert other people to their Christian belief against their will. It states in their Bible "spread the word". Not "force the word through their throats".
There is no OSE for the Bible to be seen as God's word. But there is a lot support for the Bible being the word of men in support of their view of God.

What irritates me most is the intolerance and haughtiness with which certain Christians are prepared to try to steamroll their religious ideas onto others. You are happy to be a deist. You clearly have stated not to be interested to change that. You do not have any Deism mission. But still the Christians here can't let it at that...
I assume these same Christians are the ones complaining to board management that I am posting here a clear Secular Humanist world view on this religious discussions board. When they can not "win" with logic, arguments, support, and intelligence, they try to reach their goal via the backdoor, furtive, hypocrite, and underhand...

:>)

.

You got a point wrong, I think Cred. Alty believes in God, but sort of does not in the bible.

Actually Unky, Cred knows me pretty well, he's actually the one who told me that my beliefs are that of a Deist, and after reading about Deism, I have to say that I agree. :)

I do believe in God, you are correct, but I do not believe in the bible at all, not even a little bit.

I don't think it's wrong that you do, or that anyone else does, but I don't and never will.

Here's a link that might help you to understand;

Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism)

Ok, I now understand more, I never met the word deist, so I thought that it was short for atheist, having pretty close pronunciation. Thanks for the link!

Well, I decided to open up a huge can of worms, but I hope that we can all have a rational discussion about this, because I really do want everyone's point of view.

Why do Christians base their beliefs on the bible? Why do they consider the bible to be Gods word?

The Bible was written by men, not God, not Jesus, but men. How do you explain all the contradictions in the bible? Do you really believe everything that the bible states, all the miracles, all the stories?

Why do people quote the bible and expect that to be taken as proof of Gods word?

I believe in God, but not the bible, I believe in God but not in Church. Isn't the belief of the bible and church putting you in the hands of man, not God?

I'm curious to know, so please respond, but lets be nice about it. I will admit now that no matter what you say about the validity of the bible, I will not ever accept it as the word of God, 10 years of Catholic school got that out of my system. I just want to know why Christians believe in a man written book, after all, man is not perfect, man is not infallible, so how can the bible be the God's honest truth?
Bible is God's Word. Just believe it.

Man may have been inspired, but he is still a man. Not saying it was good, or bad, just written by man limited though he may be. Every culture has a bible, or writing inspired by their God, nothing wrong with that. Divine............???????

Bible is God's Word. Just believe it.
WHY ? Just because YOU believe that ? Why don't YOU believe what a Buddhist believes, or a Jew believes, or a Hindu believes, or a Muslim believes, or any of the followers of all these other religions believe?

Really : think about that... Because you were born into a Christian family and/or grew up in a Christian community. For almost 99,99% of all Christians that is why. They were being brainwashed (well intended, but never-the-less) into Christianity from birth.

:>)

.

Its not just Christians to be fair, there are many devout followers of other denominations out here.

Its not just Christians to be fair, there are many devout followers of other denominations out here.
Yes, correct. But this topic is about "The Bible, God's word or Mans", so refers mainly to Christianity.

And I do not see any Buddhists or Hindus arguing the Theory of Evolution on this board .

Inspired or not, the Bible was written by human beings.
Everything else is based on BELIEF!!

:>)

.

Bible is God's Word. Just believe it.

I don't think so.

Why is it so important to Christians that I believe in the bible? Why? I'm not a bad person, I lead a good life, I do my best to be good to my fellow man, to raise good kids etc. What is missing from my life?

So I don't believe in the bible, I don't use the bible as the basis for my belief, I still have belief, why isn't that good enough?

There is not that big a difference between myself and the rest of you. No, I don't go to church, no I don't read the bible or live by the bible, I don't feel the need to make anyone believe the same things that I do. I have my own mind, I follow my own path, is that so wrong and if so, why?

So why do you believe in the bible? Is it because you truly feel it's the word of God, the rules to live by, the stories of God, or is it because you've been told, or warned, or threatened to believe or else?

Think about it, because I have, for many years, and the conclusion I have come up with is that the bible is a very well written story book. That doesn't make me a bad person, just not a Christian.

Personally, I'm glad that I'm not part of the flock, I prefer to be the black sheep. ;)

Why is it so important to Christians that I believe in the bible?
For Christians, the Bible is the story of how mankind has fallen, done wrong and lacked in love toward God and toward others, and how God, out of love and grace, has forgiven time after time. The lesson for each of us is that we are not stuck in our misbehavior/sin/evil (whatever you want to call it) and doomed to punishment, but that God gives us a way out because He loves us.

Well, I decided to open up a huge can of worms, but I hope that we can all have a rational discussion about this, because I really do want everyone's point of view.

Why do Christians base their beliefs on the bible?

Because the Church tells us that God revealed Himself therein.


Why do they consider the bible to be Gods word?

Because the Church tells us that it is God's word.


The Bible was written by men

True. By men inspired of God.


, not God,

True.


not Jesus, but men.

By men whom Jesus taught. But not by Jesus, true.


How do you explain all the contradictions in the bible?

There are none. If you've got one that you think is a contradiction, bring it up.


Do you really believe everything that the bible states, all the miracles, all the stories?

Yes.


Why do people quote the bible and expect that to be taken as proof of Gods word?

This is just a simplified version of the logic behind our decision to believe that Scripture is the word of God.

1. Christ established a Church.
2. Members of the Church wrote the Gospels and the New Testament.
3. The Gospels are eyewitness testimony of Jesus' life.
4. The Gospels document that Jesus said He is God and produced many miracles to prove that He is God, including rising from the dead.
5. The epistles of the New Testament witness that miracles and teachings of the members of the Church.
6. History tells us that many of these men of the Church were persecuted to their deaths and never stopped proclaiming that Jesus is God.

7. The Church is still proclaiming that Jesus is God today.

8. Jesus proclaimed that the Old Testament is the Word of God.
9. The Church, the entity which Jesus established to teach His Word, proclaimed that the New Testament is the Word of God.


I believe in God, but not the bible, I believe in God but not in Church.

That is good. What religion do you pertain to?


Isn't the belief of the bible and church putting you in the hands of man, not God?

Not if you believe in Church and Scripture in obedience to God.


I'm curious to know, so please respond, but lets be nice about it. I will admit now that no matter what you say about the validity of the bible, I will not ever accept it as the word of God, 10 years of Catholic school got that out of my system. I just want to know why Christians believe in a man written book, after all, man is not perfect, man is not infallible, so how can the bible be the God's honest truth?

I've done my best above.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Wondergirl, I do understand why Chrsitians rely on the bible for the basis of their faith, really I do.

What I don't understand is the unacceptance of people who don't, people like me.

I know that when you believe something you want to spread your belief, you want others to believe, no one wants to be alone with their beliefs. But why can't most Christians accept other peoples beliefs? Does it threaten their own belief? Does it make them question their own belief? Why?

To the Christians, when you as a Christian encounter someone like me, a Deist, what is your reaction? Are you puzzled, upset, threatened, or do you feel sorry for me because you think I'm missing out on something?

Do you think I'm a lost soul because I don't accept the bible as the word of God? Do you think that I don't really believe because I don't go to church? What is your gut reaction to a person like me, and why?

That is good. What religion do you pertain to?

Any organized religion. I was raised a Lutheran but went to a Catholic school. I've gone to baptist churches, studied mormons (school project), JW's, you name it. No religion comes close to what I believe, it's all mans interpretation of a man written book that is claimed to be the "word of God".


Because the Church tells us that God revealed Himself therein.

Well, then maybe you can understand why I won't accept the bible, because I also won't accept a man run church.


Not if you believe in Church and Scripture in obedience to God.

I don't believe in church and scripture, but I do believe in God.


Because the Church tells us that it is God's word.

Again, I don't believe in church or organized religion. I am a Deist.

Does that explain my position? :)

To bad all the inspiration, stories, and miracles, stopped and have not been recorded by modern man. I think its telling that no man has been inspired since ancient times, to add to the bible, or continue its history. I guess even among the most ardent believer, the inspiration is lacking.

It is a good insight into the mores and progress of man in the ancient times, and is a good account of history though.

Any organized religion. I was raised a Lutheran but went to a Catholic school. I've gone to baptist churches, studied mormons (school project), JW's, you name it. No religion comes close to what I believe, it's all mans interpretation of a man written book that is claimed to be the "word of God".

Well, then maybe you can understand why I won't accept the bible, because I also won't accept a man run church.

I don't believe in church and scripture, but I do believe in God.

Again, I don't believe in church or organized religion. I am a Deist.

Does that explain my position? :)

Yes. Can you tell me why you believe in God?

Sincerely,

De Maria

It is a good insight into the mores and progress of man in the ancient times, and is a good account of history though.

As he saw it that is from his perspective, and surroundings, in his own part of the world.

To bad all the inspiration, stories, and miracles, stopped and have not been recorded by modern man. I think its telling that no man has been inspired since ancient times, to add to the bible, or continue its history. I guess even among the most ardent believer, the inspiration is lacking.

It is a good insight into the mores and progress of man in the ancient times, and is a good account of history though.

You're mistaken. The Church is infallible because it is inspired of the Holy Spirit to teach the truth. The Pope is infallible for the same reason. The saints have left a trail of miracles for 2000 years and there are many saints in the making right now.

So, there is no shortage of inspiration right now.

"BUT" you say, "the Bible is full of miracles and today we don't see that many."

That's the reason why I always preferred to watch the Monday night highlights rather than sit there and watch the whole game. Every play was exciting on the highlights. Every throw a first down or touch down. Every tackle a fumble.

Why sit through a whole boring game when I could just see the exciting plays?

History is like that. We don't study every single day of history. We study only those days which were eventful. Scripture is Salvation History. Mostly those things which are important for us to know are recorded. Otherwise, there is no book big enough to contain all the information that would be generated.

And that is why it seems that the Bible is full of people talking to God and miracles on a daily basis. But that isn't so. Although the Holy Spirit certainly was flowing powerfully when God was walking amongst men.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Yes. Can you tell me why you believe in God?

Sincerely,

De Maria

It's simply because of things that I've experienced in my life, things I've seen firsthand. Not miracles, but everyday things. Twice in my mothers life she was "legally" dead, before her actual death. Both times she witnessed something that further proved to me and her that God exists. It might not matter to anyone else, but it does for me, and has meaning for me. I can't explain it any clearer without writing an entire book about it, but rest assured that I have my reasons.

Personally I find it a miracle that after 10 years of harassment in Catholic school, I still believe in God. If anything could have turned someone away from God, my 10 years of Catholic school should have done the trick.

They did manage to turn me away from church, and the constant bible study opened my eyes as well, but they couldn't turn me from God. They tried to "save my soul" which I found amusing, because the only thing they did to save theirs was read the bible and go to church.

Most of the parents of my friends were horrible people, wife abusers, drug abusers, child molesters, but they believed that because they are Catholic and go to church, God would forgive them their sins, what hypocrisy.

I am the exact opposite of that, yes I sin, have sinned and will continue to sin, that is a human trait, and I am indeed human. But I try my hardest to do right, to live my life as a good human being. When I ask for forgiveness it's not because I did what I wanted and I'm trying to cover it up, when I make a mistake I am truly sorry, that's the difference.

So, why do I need the bible and church? Personally, and I mean no disrespect, I see both as a crutch, as a way to reassure yourself, to make yourself believe you are on the right path.

Who is right, the person who leads a good life, tries always to be kind and caring, help their fellow man, and try not to sin, or the person that goes to church, reads the bible and therefore thinks they are safe from the "wrath" of God, even though they purposefully sin. I don't believe in the "wrath" of God, but the Chritians do, which is why I mention it.

What about those that don't even believe in God? God gave us minds, and free will, as his children he wants us to use those gifts. He wants us to question, to find answers, and like any good parent, he loves us no matter what path we choose. That's what I believe with all my heart.

It's simply because of things that I've experienced in my life, things I've seen firsthand. Not miracles, but everyday things. Twice in my mothers life she was "legally" dead, before her actual death. Both times she witnessed something that further proved to me and her that God exists. It might not matter to anyone else, but it does for me, and has meaning for me. I can't explain it any clearer without writing an entire book about it, but rest assured that I have my reasons.

Its good you were paying attention. Many people see far more and don't believe in God.


Personally I find it a miracle that after 10 years of harassment in Catholic school, I still believe in God. If anything could have turned someone away from God, my 10 years of Catholic school should have done the trick.

They did manage to turn me away from church, and the constant bible study

I'm glad you mentioned the "constant bible study". Many claim that Catholic schools don't teach the Bible. Thanks for your honesty.


opened my eyes as well, but they couldn't turn me from God.

You think that Catholic Schools were trying to turn you from God by making you study the Bible (i.e. "constant bible study")?


They tried to "save my soul"

If you believed the Church or the Bible, you'd understand that it is one of our duties.


which I found amusing, because the only thing they did to save theirs was read the bible and go to church.

You mean, the Church which is always accused of teaching that one must work their way into heaven didn't teach you about good works? Or do you mean that they didn't practice what they preached?


Most of the parents of my friends were horrible people, wife abusers, drug abusers, child molesters, but they believed that because they are Catholic and go to church, God would forgive them their sins, what hypocrisy.

You went to Catholic School for ten years. Is that what the Church teaches? Does the Church teach that people should be wife abusers, drug abusers, and child molesters? Or were these people acting AGAINST the teachings of the Catholic Church?


I am the exact opposite of that, yes I sin, have sinned and will continue to sin, that is a human trait, and I am indeed human. But I try my hardest to do right, to live my life as a good human being. When I ask for forgiveness it's not because I did what I wanted and I'm trying to cover it up, when I make a mistake I am truly sorry, that's the difference.

That's wonderful! I hope for your sake that you are right.


So, why do I need the bible and church?

According to you, you don't.

We, Catholics, need the Bible and the Church because Jesus says we do. And we believe that Jesus is God. You are a Theist, so you don't.

Now, for instance, you say you know when you are truly sorry. We believe that only God truly knows our heart. And therefore, we don't know if we are ever truly as sorry as we need to be. That is why Jesus gave the Church the power to forgive. Because if our contrition is imperfect, we will still be absolved of sin by obeying God's Word.


Personally, and I mean no disrespect, I see both as a crutch, as a way to reassure yourself, to make yourself believe you are on the right path.

And you know you are on the right track. That is good.


Who is right, the person who leads a good life, tries always to be kind and caring, help their fellow man, and try not to sin, or the person that goes to church, reads the bible and therefore thinks they are safe from the "wrath" of God, even though they purposefully sin.

Anyone who purposefully sins and does not repent is condemned since they have turned against God.

A person who reads and goes to church and then sins but REPENTS, is forgiven.


I don't believe in the "wrath" of God, but the Chritians do, which is why I mention it.

Then why do you care if you sin or not?


What about those that don't even believe in God? God gave us minds, and free will, as his children he wants us to use those gifts. He wants us to question, to find answers, and like any good parent, he loves us no matter what path we choose. That's what I believe with all my heart.

For your sake, I hope you are right. As for me, I have faith in the Bible readers who go to Church and love God so much that they do all they can to obey His Word. Therefore I follow their example.

Sincerely,

De Maria

So, why do I need the bible and church?
We, Catholics, need the Bible and the Church because Jesus says we do (*1). And we believe that Jesus is God. You are a Theist, so you don't (*2).
*1 : Where in the Bible does Jesus say literally that we need the Bible?
*1 : Please quote the precise location of that text in the Bible !

*2 : That line makes no sense ! Being a Theist does not say anything on belief in Jesus being God or not.
*2 : Theism only means belief in one God or more Gods.
*2 : Altenweg is a DEIST and that is why for her any claimed link between God and Jesus is irrelevant.

Note : I hope that by now you took enough Imodium to bring any of your future posts to readable length.

:>)

.

*1 : Where in the Bible does Jesus say literally that we need the Bible?

Literally? You'll have to talk to a Protestant for strict literalism. I'm Catholic and I follow the Catholic teaching:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 2 (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a3.htm#101)

As you may know, Scripture is called the Word of God. Here is what Jesus said about the Word of God:
Luke 4 4 And Jesus answered him: It is written, that Man liveth not by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Therefore, although Jesus did not say the Bible, He meant Scripture and the Bible contains every book of Scripture.


*1 : Please quote the precise location of that text in the Bible !

There it is above.


*2 : That line makes no sense ! Being a Theist does not say anything on belief in Jesus being God or not.
*2 : Theism only means belief in one God or more Gods.
*2 : Altenweg is a DEIST and that is why for her any claimed link between God and Jesus is irrelevant.

I don't know what you are complaining about. Read the line again.


Note : I hope that by now you took enough Imodium to bring any of your future posts to readable length.

You can't handle the arguments no matter how long the message.

Sincerely,

De Maria

We, Catholics, need the Bible and the Church because Jesus says we do

Literally? You'll have to talk to a Protestant for strict literalism. I'm Catholic and I follow the Catholic teaching.
So you mean to say it does not say so in the Bible...
And NOWHERE in the Bible it is stated that Jesus refers to the Bible and that you need the Bible.
So your first statement was clearly incorrect. Jesus never said you do.

:>)

.

So you mean to say it does not say so in the Bible ...
And NOWHERE in the Bible it is stated that Jesus refers to the Bible and that you need the Bible.
So your first statement was clearly incorrect. Jesus never said you do.

:>)

.

That is what is called building a straw man so you can knock it down. Read the entire message. My response is still there. It looks like this:


As you may know, Scripture is called the Word of God. Here is what Jesus said about the Word of God:
Luke 4 4 And Jesus answered him: It is written, that Man liveth not by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Therefore, although Jesus did not say the Bible, He meant Scripture and the Bible contains every book of Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

From all accounts Jesus, was a Jew, who taught from the old testament, of the bible, the same old testament that spawned Islam, and later Christianity, so since everything else came after that, including the Catholic church, what claim to divinity can any scripture, or changing of tradition, or dogma, claim.

Man may well be inspired, and do good things from that inspiration, but he is still by nature imperfect, and flawed by his lack of knowledge, which history tells us, he can fill the blanks of his ignorance with some creative, and persuasive arguments, to justify any actions he may take. Good or bad!

So you mean to say it does not say so in the Bible ...
And NOWHERE in the Bible it is stated that Jesus refers to the Bible and that you need the Bible.
In Jesus' time, the "Bible" didn't exist. Jesus often quoted from the law and the prophets, what became the Old Testament.

From all accounts Jesus, was a Jew, who taught from the old testament, of the bible,

Correct.


the same old testament that spawned Islam,

That is false. Muslims despise the Jewish and Christian Scriptures.


and later Christianity, so since everything else came after that, including the Catholic church, what claim to divinity can any scripture, or changing of tradition, or dogma, claim.

The Catholic Church was established by Jesus to teach what He taught and to pass down the Traditions.

Members of the Church were inspired to write the New Testament Scriptures by the Holy Spirit.

Since the Jesus are from Jesus, their Divine source is their claim to Divine origins. Jesus proved He is God by many miracles and by rising from the dead.


Man may well be inspired, and do good things from that inspiration, but he is still by nature imperfect, and flawed by his lack of knowledge, which history tells us, he can fill the blanks of his ignorance with some creative, and persuasive arguments, to justify any actions he may take. Good or bad!

But God can inspire fallible man to create infallible works.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Now, for instance, you say you know when you are truly sorry. We believe that only God truly knows our heart. And therefore, we don't know if we are ever truly as sorry as we need to be. That is why Jesus gave the Church the power to forgive. Because if our contrition is imperfect, we will still be absolved of sin by obeying God's Word.

Are you saying that you don't feel remorse when you do something wrong, when you sin? You really need someone else to tell you that you are really remorseful? That's where we're different, I know when I've done something wrong and I know when I'm sorry for it, I don't need anyone else telling me that I am sorry. God sees what is in my heart, I don't need to go to church and have a man tell me that God forgives me.


I'm glad you mentioned the "constant bible study". Many claim that Catholic schools don't teach the Bible. Thanks for your honesty.

I graduated from high school 20 years ago, in Canada, and yes, back then they still taught the bible. Are they now, in the US, I really don't know.


Then why do you care if you sin or not?

You're really asking that question? Why, because if you aren't afraid of God's wrath you should go right ahead and sin, it's okay then? Do you really need an answer to that? I do care if I sin, because I want to be the best person I can be. Every decent person I know feels the same way, no matter what they believe. Christians aren't the only "good" people on this earth.


For your sake, I hope you are right. As for me, I have faith in the Bible readers who go to Church and love God so much that they do all they can to obey His Word. Therefore I follow their example.

Obviously that's the path you've chosen, and I don't begrudge you that choice at all.

I don't need a book or church to believe in God, that's what makes us different, and obviously that difference bothers you a bit.

From all accounts Jesus, was a Jew, who taught from the old testament, of the bible, the same old testament that spawned Islam, and later Christianity, so since everything else came after that, including the Catholic church, what claim to divinity can any scripture, or changing of tradition, or dogma, claim.

Man may well be inspired, and do good things from that inspiration, but he is still by nature imperfect, and flawed by his lack of knowledge, which history tells us, he can fill the blanks of his ignorance with some creative, and persuasive arguments, to justify any actions he may take. Good or bad!

I agree Tal, 100%. :)

That is what is called building a straw man so you can knock it down. Read the entire message. My response is still there. It looks like this:


As you may know, Scripture is called the Word of God. Here is what Jesus said about the Word of God:
Luke 4 4 And Jesus answered him: It is written, that Man liveth not by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Therefore, although Jesus did not say the Bible, He meant Scripture and the Bible contains every book of Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

With all due respect, you are reading that quote and twisting it around to suit your purpose.

The actual quote is:
Luke 4 4 And Jesus answered him: It is written, that Man liveth not by bread alone, but by every word of God. you are the one saying he meant scripture and then further say that the bible contains every book of scripture, therefore they are referring to the bible.

Word for word the bible isn't mentioned, when you tell people what you think is meant, well that's not fact, that's your view on what was written. This is the problem that I have with religion, mans view on a man written book, twisted into his own words, however he views it, and then stated as fact.

In Jesus' time, the "Bible" didn't exist. Jesus often quoted from the law and the prophets, what became the Old Testament.
That law never made it into the Bible. And Jesus never mentioned the Bible.
That is why de Maria is incorrect when he stated earlier that :

"We, Catholics, need the Bible and the Church because Jesus says we do"

Jesus never mentioned any "Bible". It did not exist yet.

:>)

.

With all due respect, you are reading that quote and twisting it around to suit your purpose.
Yes : that is the typical approach of "de Maria" !

:>)

.

who taught from the old testament, of the bible, the same old testament that spawned Islam, and later Christianity
That is false. Muslims despise the Jewish and Christian Scriptures.



Then what your saying is you do not know the true history of your own bible????
Shouldn't that inspire you to explore, and find the truth????

... the same old testament that spawned Islam, and later Christianity...
Isn't that the other way around?

... the same old testament that spawned Christianity, and later Islam...

(by about 500+ years !)

:>)

.

With all due respect, you are reading that quote and twisting it around to suit your purpose.

No.


The actual quote is: you are the one saying he meant scripture and then further say that the bible contains every book of scripture, therefore they are referring to the bible.

Correct.


Word for word the bible isn't mentioned,

Correct. The Bible did not exist yet.


when you tell people what you think is meant, well that's not fact, that's your view on what was written.

That is actually, the Catholic view on what was written.


This is the problem that I have with religion, mans view on a man written book, twisted into his own words, however he views it, and then stated as fact.

It is fact. Lets look at the verse logically.

The verse says man needs the Word of God, (i.e. every word from the mouth of God).
Scripture is the Word of God.
John 10 35 If he called them gods, to whom to word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken;

The Bible contains the Word of God, (i.e. Scripture).

Therefore we need the Bible.

In fact, today, the term "Bible" is interchangeable with Scripture.

Define Bible:
The Bible is the sacred scriptures of Christians comprising the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Glossary at Trinityparish.com (http://www.trinityparish.com/glossary.html)

So if you want to make believe that I twisted the meaning of the verse, go ahead. I'll let reasonable people decide between you and I.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Isn't that the other way around?

... the same old testament that spawned Christianity, and later Islam ...

(by about 500+ years !

:>)

.

I stand corrected, sometimes I type too fast, or is it juggling to many threads!:o

So if you want to make believe that I twisted the meaning of the verse, go ahead. I'll let reasonable people decide between you and I.

Being a reasonable person, I question any one who says the are absolutely right, no matter the bible they read. No matter your belief, your still human, whether you are inspired, or not, you are still human. So no matter how differently we see things, or say things, we are still human, and that is the only absolute truth, and can be proved as fact. The rest is rhetoric, and belief.

If your belief, gets you thru the day, and comforts you during hard times, more power to you!

I don't know, science isn't something I'm good at. You could explain till your where blue in the face, it's my worst subject. But the little I do know, well it sounds more realistic to me than God creating something from nothing in 6 days.

Alt, in the bible a day does not translate into literally a 24 hr time. A day can be a hundred years, a thousand years, or a million. A day is just to a tool to express a time.
I grew up Christian, and I remember a time when I was a little girl sitting in Sunday school, and a story was read about creating men from rocks. I think it went a rock was thrown in this direction and here is a nation, anyway I don't really remember, but I do remember is asking my Sunday school teacher how that was possible. He actually got quite angry with me. Even at ten I was arguing the validity of the Bible.
I don't think that the Bible is meant for anyone to take literally. It's simply a biblical time, Chicken Soup for the Soul kind of book. It's a collection of stories that are meant to inspire and sometimes put fear inside of you. It's not something that's really meant to be questioned. It is literally something that no one will ever know the answer to.

That law never made it into the Bible.
The Ten Commandments in Exodus and Deuteronomy are not the law? Leviticus does not contain Jewish law? And yes, Jesus referred to the commandments and the Levitical laws many times.

The verse says man needs the Word of God, (i.e. every word from the mouth of God).
Scripture is the Word of God.I can easily accept that ALL Scriptures, as selected and defined by people of EVERY faith, are Words of God.

But to my mind, it is absolutely preposterous to think that ANY of these Scriptures individually, or even ALL of them collectively, are the ONLY Words God speaks into our present life and conscious experience. I want to hear ALL of God's words, especially those that call into question orthodox interpretations of this or that Scripture. As I have learned to hear and understand more Words, I have become less impressed by, and less trustful of, the makers and guardians of orthodox interpretations.

DeMaria, you are contradicting yourself. You say that the bible states that Jesus says we need the bible, yet the bible didn't exist yet, so how could he have said that we need something that didn't even exist? Could you explain that? :confused:

Alt, in the bible a day does not translate into literally a 24 hr time period.
How do you know that? Have you any proof (OSE) for that? Or do you perhaps only BELIEVE that?


I don't think that the Bible is meant for anyone to take literally.
Fine ! And I as Secular Humanist agree with you on that : it is the message that counts. Unfortunately many Christians just skip precisely that : the Christian message, and replace that with church visit and lots of "hot air"...

The problem is that the creation fanatics do take the Bible literal, and it are these creationists who "create" all the disagreements with their aggressive attitude towards the Theory of Evolution, the origin of first life, the origin of the universe, based on what they BELIEVE , and not on what is factual.

:>)

.

I can easily accept that ALL Scriptures, as selected and defined by people of EVERY faith, are Words of God.

Do you believe then, that God contradicts Himself? Because the various Scriptures of the various religions do so.


But to my mind, it is absolutely preposterous to think that ANY of these Scriptures individually, or even ALL of them collectively, are the ONLY Words God speaks into our present life and conscious experience.

Do any of the Scriptures make that claim? I know the Christian Scriptures don't.


I want to hear ALL of God's words, especially those that call into question orthodox interpretations of this or that Scripture. As I have learned to hear and understand more Words, I have become less impressed by, and less trustful of, the makers and guardians of orthodox interpretations.

In other words, you want to speak to God directly. That is a good and honorable thought. I suggest prayer. Pray to God and ask Him to talk to you. I sincerely believe that He will.

Sincerely,

De Maria

DeMaria, you are contradicting yourself.

No I'm not.


You say that the bible states that Jesus says we need the bible, yet the bible didn't exist yet, so how could he have said that we need something that didn't even exist? Could you explain that? :confused:

Its very simple. "Bible" is the modern word for Scripture. And Scripture is the Word of God.

Jesus said we need the Word of God. Therefore that means that we need Scripture. If we say it in modern lingo, that means we need the Bible.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Nope, you're still not making any sense, but I give up.

DeMaria, you are exactly the kind of Christian I've been avoiding since I got out of High school 20 years ago.

I respect your right to believe what you want, I respect your right to go to church, to worship God in your way.

I do not respect the fact that you will not even consider someone else's point of view, that to you, Christianity is the only real way to believe in God.

You've made your point very clear, and I have seen that you will fight for your religion no matter what, even if it means translating the bible to suit your purpose.

I thank you for your time, you have confirmed my beliefs more than anyone else could have, not that they needed confirmation.

You may need scripture, I do not. God is in my heart, not in a book and not in a man made church.

Good luck to you and all your endeavors. :)

Nope, you're still not making any sense, but I give up.

DeMaria, you are exactly the kind of Christian I've been avoiding since I got out of High school 20 years ago.

I respect your right to believe what you want, I respect your right to go to church, to worship God in your way.

I do not respect the fact that you will not even consider someone elses point of view, that to you, Christianity is the only real way to believe in God.

You've made your point very clear, and I have seen that you will fight for your religion no matter what, even if it means translating the bible to suit your purpose.

I thank you for your time, you have confirmed my beliefs more than anyone else could have, not that they needed confirmation.

You may need scripture, I do not. God is in my heart, not in a book and not in a man made church.

Good luck to you and all your endeavors. :)

Good luck to you as well.

However, I disagree that I don't consider any other points of view. I was atheist for much of my life. And when I returned to God, I checked many religions before the wisdom of Catholicism called me back home.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I was atheist for much of my life. And when I returned to God, I checked many religions before the wisdom of Catholicism called me back home.
That only "proves" that the "converted" are the worst of all, be that ex-drinkers, ex-smokers, or ex-Atheists.

:D :rolleyes: :p :) ;) :D

Do you believe then, that God contradicts Himself?
Yes, absolutely. It happens all the time, and none of us should be surprised by it. Who was it that said, "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"? Any God worthy of the name is not going to be bound by our notions of logical consistency.


Do any of the Scriptures make that claim? I know the Christian Scriptures don't.Well, not usually the books themselves. Mostly, it's their adherents that are so preoccupied with their claim that theirs is the ONLY Scripture, that they wouldn't notice a Word of God if it was shouted in their ear, much less discern the "still small voice".


In other words, you want to speak to God directly. That is a good and honorable thought.
I don't just want to, I do it routinely, all the time. Thank you for your approval.

God is in my heart, not in a book and not in a man made church.
Alty, I want to thank you for this thread. I think we are kindred spirits in this regard.

I Some what agree with Altemweg I think the bible is mostly crap but there are some truthes to it like the great flood where it rained for 40 days and 40 nites the found noahs ark.

Yes, absolutely. It happens all the time, and none of us should be surprised by it. Who was it that said, "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"? Any God worthy of the name is not going to be bound by our notions of logical consistency.

Then keep searching.


Well, not usually the books themselves. Mostly, it's their adherents that are so preoccupied with their claim that theirs is the ONLY Scripture, that they wouldn't notice a Word of God if it was shouted in their ear, much less discern the "still small voice".

You think that God's must be a "still small voice"? Why?


I don't just want to, I do it routinely, all the time. Thank you for your approval.

You talk to God directly? There are some people to whom God responds audibly, or in dreams or in signs. Are you one of those?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Then keep searching.I'm not searching, I'm listening.

You think that God's must be a "still small voice"? Why?Must be? No. But most of the time, yes, that's how I experience it. Actually, it's more like an inner conviction that I become aware of at some point in the process of contemplation.

You talk to God directly?In a manner of speaking. Let's just say we keep in touch.

There are some people to whom God responds audibly, or in dreams or in signs. Are you one of those?I have had a small number of dreams that might qualify, but usually it's far more low-key and less dramatic than that.

In response to questions on the OP: If you do not believe the Bible, how can you know anything about what God is like? You must have some point of reference. Of course, god is a generic term, not a name. There are literally millions of "gods" (less if considering only the major ones), each one defined by what? How can we know whether the man who has a feathered image called "god" is right or not? Does God have human form, or is He eight-armed? Is God male or female? If we reject the Bible, we can't answer these questions with any degree of certainty. Our own experiecnc is a poor guide because it is invariably influenced by our past experiences, and can be anything we choose, whether concisously or unconciously.

Alty, I want to thank you for this thread. I think we are kindred spirits in this regard.

Thanks for saying that. :)

So far so good, there have been a few moments when things got heated and tense, but the majority of people posting have been respectful and kind, I'm just glad that this thread is going fairly well, especially because the topic is something that most people will feel pation about, either one way or the other. ;)

I myself am firm in my belief, therefore I have to respect those that believe something else, their beliefs are just as firm as mine, and that is their right.

We may not reach a complete understanding on this thread, we may never see the other point of view and accept that it's valid, but at least we are talking about our beliefs and trying to express our points of view. For this I'm glad.

Let's try to keep this going smoothly everyone, remember, we are all human regardless of what we believe, so lets be kind even when we want to scream at someone. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about, I'm a stubborn, short tempered German. ;)

I'm not searching, I'm listening.
Must be? No. But most of the time, yes, that's how I experience it. Actually, it's more like an inner conviction that I become aware of at some point in the process of contemplation.
In a manner of speaking. Let's just say we keep in touch.
I have had a small number of dreams that might qualify, but usually it's far more low-key and less dramatic than that.

That's good OG. I'm happy for you.

I wonder why you seem to oppose so vehemently those of us who believe in Christ?

Sincerely,

De Maria

OOOOOH one of my favorite subjects to... not discuss LOL

Here's my opinion... and we all know what those are worth. Since the beginning of what we assume to be the presence of man... there has always been a higher being or two or more that man has worshipped.

Throughout that time (what I like to call the "evolution of religion") the god(s) being worshipped changed. Some people chose to worship old god(s), new god(s) etc... and chaos arose from this.

Then man made books and in every culture there came books from which god(s) had spoken and these books contained orders on how you were to live. Though not every culture has books... of course there are tribes that have passed down their beliefs through words and stories instead... like a game of telephone.

Anyway we finally get to a time in history where the big book (the Bible) was edited... to include ONLY those books that fit what the beliefs were at the time... the other unfit books were purged and some discovered later.

And of course the old language was lost and new translations were made, etc. etc. etc.

I feel the Bible and all other religious books were originally created to gain control over parts of society MAN can not control. BUT if you tell them GOD SAID... a vast majority of the people will listen...

Without the organized religion... control over people is lost...

My 2 cents... but again... not worth much in this day and age :0)

And of course the old language was lost and new translations were made, etc. etc. etc.
The old language waasn't lost, but the originals were.

That's the part that bugs me the most, is the senseless loss of life through out the ages, and the manipulation, and control, humans use in the name of whatever god they can come up with. Using the name of god has justified some really horrible actions by man, against man. The worst part is its always about greed, money, and power. Shame.

OOOOOH one of my favorite subjects to .... not discuss LOL

Here's my opinion... and we all know what those are worth. Since the beginning of what we assume to be the presence of man... there has always been a higher being or two or more that man has worshipped.

Throughout that time (what I like to call the "evolution of religion") the god(s) being worshipped changed. Some people chose to worship old god(s), new god(s) etc.... and chaos arose from this.

Then man made books and in every culture there came books from which god(s) had spoken and these books contained orders on how you were to live. Though not every culture has books... of course there are tribes that have passed down their beliefs through words and stories instead... like a game of telephone.

Anywho we finally get to a time in history where the big book (the Bible) was edited... to include ONLY those books that fit what the beliefs were at the time... the other unfit books were purged and some discovered later.

And of course the old language was lost and new translations were made, etc. etc. etc.

I feel the Bible and all other religious books were originally created to gain control over parts of society MAN can not control. BUT if you tell them GOD SAID... a vast majority of the people will listen....

Without the organized religion... control over people is lost....

My 2 cents... but again... not worth much in this day and age :0)

Wow, wow, wow, love it! I'd give you a greenie if I could, in fact, here it is. :D

I agree with everything you've said, and you said it very well. I'm taking your 2 cents and holding on to it, I think it will appreciate in value, or at least I appreciate it's value. :)

GREAT! Between you and me we have 4 cents LOL

Let's invest in a gummy bear, if we pool our money we can do it. We'll split it, I call heads. :)

LOL

Fantastic... If we get one more person on board maybe we could spring for a gummy worm... there so much larger and 2 colors ;)

... I'm taking your 2 cents and holding on to it, I think it will appreciate in value, or at least I appreciate it's value.
I even add my 2 Euro cents to that.
Don't hold on to the dollar cents !
It's part of an ever further depreciating currency!!

:D

That's true... isn't the Euro worth 1.42729 of our dollars?

We need to hold on to those ;)

For my two peso worth, thread closed