I'm speaking of the satellite state, now country, of the former USSR, that's struggling toward a faint resemblance of democracy, but just had it's doors kicked in by Russia. Well since under Dubya we've become the world's police, many Republicans don't care for the UNs input, we continue two wars, and some hardened McCain supporters have shown outright disdain for Obama's communication skills that would be reasonably be used in diplomacy... so what's it going to be? Would John McCain send American troops to help the small country of Georgia?


The Associated Press: McCain, Obama urge halt to fighting in Georgia (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hIKyDCRfs2yd6x3RUxDDUJfqiMiAD92EAAJ88)

"DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) — The major candidates for president on Friday called on Russia and Georgia to end their military action and appealed for more diplomatic efforts aimed at avoiding a full-scale war.

Republican John McCain said Russia should withdraw its forces. Democrat Barack Obama condemned the violence and urged the two sides to show restraint.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili has long pledged to take back control of South Ossetia, which battled Georgia for de facto independence in fighting that ended in 1992. On Friday, Moscow sent tanks into the region when Georgia launched a major military offensive to retake the breakaway province.

Campaigning in Iowa, McCain told reporters that the U.S. should convene an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council to resolve the crisis.

"What's most critical now is to avoid further confrontation between Russian and Georgian military forces," McCain said.

The U.S. should work with the European Union to put diplomatic pressure on Russia and help establish an independent peacekeeping force in South Ossetia, McCain said.

Obama, speaking to reporters during a flight to Hawaii for a vacation, said he's getting regular updates on the violence. He said it's important for the United States to work with international partners to end the conflict.

"I wholeheartedly condemn the violation of Georgia's sovereignty. I think it is important at this point for all sides to show restraint and to stop this arms conflict. Georgia's territorial integrity needs to be preserved and now is the time for direct talks," he said during a refueling stop in Sacramento, Calif."

What do you think ? Should we ? To tell you the truth ;Georgia is very close to becoming a NATO member .If that had already occurred then the NATO treaty would've kicked in and we would already be at war with Russia.

To me there is a broader issue here than the fate of the South Ossetia region.Georgia is the nation in the path of a pipeline from the Caspian Sea to the Turkish port of Ceyhan ;a pipeline that does not cross Russian territory.
Russia would like to control the energy supply in Central Asia ,and the flow of energy to Europe,. especially to former satellite states like Ukraine. Their claim that they want to
Defend compatriots is b.s. I find it quite a coincident that this Russian move occurred so soon after the PKK attack on the Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan pipeline.

The Russians have bombed the air bases where more than 1000 US Marines and special forces are currently stationed in order to train the Georgia military. George also has cooperated in the war against jihadistan having troops in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

I do not know how far American involvement will go ;or if there should be any American involvement beyond diplomatic . There is a certain logic in saying that Russia should just be allowed to absorb the South Ossetia region given the number of ethnic Russians living there... the same logic that justified the German invasion of Czechoslovakia.

OK to contrast the statements by the Presidential Candidates .Since this is that 3 AM moment that Evita was talking about.

McCain :"Russian should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all force from sovereign Georgian territory."


Obama :"Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war..."

McCain demands that Russia cease fire immediately and get out of Georgia.
Obama asks the invaded sovereign state of Georgia, our ally, NATO applicant, freedom-loving and critical energy state with combat brigades in Afghanistan and in Iraq to help America, with over 1000 U.S. military in harm's way at airbases that have already been bombed by Russia,to show restraint when it is attacked by the Russian army and airpower? So who is the better candidate for President based on this issues ? You decide.

To me the critical difference in their statements is that McCain would signal to Europe a return to the Ameircan leadership of the 1940s and 50's . I read Obama as being willing to accept a Finlandization for Europe by a re-emerging Russian petrol-superstate .

·
The confrontation between Georgia and South Ossetia is the direct result of the increasing skirmishing and confrontation between US and Russian interests in that region.

The last Russia needs is a second Chechenia on it's doorstep.
All US efforts to offer Georgia membership of Nato should be halted asap.

Personally I have little against either Georgia and/or South Ossetia.
But neither do I see any reason to provoke Russia in that region.

:rolleyes:

·

...OK to contrast the statements by the Presidential Candidates .Since this is that 3 AM moment that Evita was talking about.

McCain :"Russian should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all force from sovereign Georgian territory."

Obama :"Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war..."

McCain demands that Russia cease fire immediately and get out of Georgia.
Obama asks the invaded sovereign state of Georgia, our ally, NATO applicant, freedom-loving and critical energy state with combat brigades in Afghanistan and in Iraq to help America, with over 1000 U.S. military in harm's way at airbases that have already been bombed by Russia,to show restraint when it is attacked by the Russian army and airpower?.Hello tom:

It IS a 3:00 AM moment as far as I'm concerned, so it's OK with me. Russia has attacked our allie! My question is what does the dufus in chief do about it?? While Putin, (whom the dufus looked into his eyes and liked what he saw there), went home to make war on Europe, the dufus took pictures with the volley ball girls??

OMG!! This is like him being notified that Al Qaeda is going to attack us a whole month before they did, and the dufus did NOTHING. This is like doing NOTHING about Katrina except flying over New Orleans and clucking his tongue. This is LIKE the dufus letting Bin Laden get away scott free, and NOT caring a hoot about it!!

If you're not scared now, while the dufus is running things, YOU SHOULD BE!! Is McSame much different?? I don't think so!

excon

PS> By the way, Obama came around after he came to his senses.

PPS> Another, by the way tom, remember those 1,000's of Russian nuclear missiles pointed at us, that you said we didn't have to worry about? Want to rethink that position??

Ex you mean Obama flipped again ?

I will get back to you after I have studied the situation further . I do not pretend to know all thje details but it appears to me to be much more complicated than a simple territorial dispute.

As for President Bush ; he has a Russian expert as his Sec. State. It is not relevant that he spent a weekend watching sports in China.

As for those nukes, we have been in more tense situations with Russia before and the exchange of nukes did not occure. Unlike the rogue states of the Mahdi Hatter and Kim jong Mentally Il , I think the Ruskies are still playing with a full deck.

I think we also have consider our quick and unthought out position in my view of our recognition of Kosovo's independence .Lech Walesa warned us back in Feb. what might happen if we were too quick to recognize Kosovo's split from Serbia.

If Russia can use that as an excuse for aggression against her former satellites then Easter Ukraine ,Belarus ,Chechnya, Tatarstan, the Bashkorts ;all with ethinic Russian populations are threatened .

But Russia should reconsider it's position also . There are still many non-ethnic Russians living inside territorial Russia. Their justification for aggression could easily be turned on them internally. They have a bigger concern with the jihadists threat then we do. This could be their quagmire.

Like I said ;there is more to this than meets the eyes . It is good that Obama flipped and now is on the same page with the US position . Let him enjoy his Mai-tai and body surfing for a week and let the real leaders handle this.

What do you think ? Should we ?
OK to contrast the statements by the Presidential Candidates .Since this is that 3 AM moment that Evita was talking about..

Yes. And let's look at it once again in context...


McCain :"Russian should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all force from sovereign Georgian territory."

Unconditionally?? Bwa ha ha ha! Or what?? At 3 a.m. McCain will send the next generation of young Americans into WWIII.


Obama :"Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war..."


That's the intelligent level headed response I'd hoped for! And Excon is correct. Only naïve people think that Russia doesn't have nuclear warheads. Listen, if I'm looking for a fight I want it on my terms. Good for Obama.




It is good that Obama flipped and now is on the same page with the US position . Let him enjoy his Mai-tai and body surfing for a week and let the real leaders handle this.


Don't confuse your "real leader," for real leadership. Dubya's not the US public's view of a "we the people" leader by any stretch of the imagination. However the good news is that he will retire to his Crawford Ranch soon with a photo album of volleyball Olympians, hopefully to never be involved in government decision making again.

Er, wasn't it Clinton that let Bin Laden get away?

Er, wasn't it Clinton that let Bin Laden get away?

You're a bit off the posted subject, but to answer your question, yes. Clinton was too busy with Monika Lewinsky to care. The culprits that nurtured Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, that in return provided us with the Hussein's, and Bin Laden's, (and other such ilk of the future) are none other than our elected officials from the 1980's: George Herbert Walker Bush (http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=george_herbert_walker_bush)

That's the intelligent level headed response I'd hoped for!

If that is the case then why did he flip and make a completely different response in less than 48 hrs? Obama's new response (after the Mai Tai wore off )
[“I condemn Russia's aggressive actions and reiterate my call for an immediate ceasefire,”.....
“Russia must stop its bombing campaign, cease flights of Russian aircraft in Georgian airspace, and withdraw its ground forces from Georgia.”]


At least McCain (who has spoken to Georgian President Saakashvili at least twice this weekend) showed immediately that he understood the difference between an aggressor and a victim.Note that after he had time to think about it and put his finger in the air BO sounded very much like Sen. McCain.

Here is the joint statement of other former Russian dominated nations :




We, the leaders of the former captive nations from Eastern Europe and current members of the European Union and NATO– Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland – are extremely concerned about the actions of the Russian Federation against Georgia.

We strongly condemn the actions by the Russian military forces against the sovereign and independent country of Georgia.

Following the unilateral military actions of the Russian military forces, we will use all means available to us as Presidents to ensure that aggression against a small country in Europe will not be passed over in silence or with meaningless statements equating the victims with the victimizers. To this end we intend to urge our governments to take the following positions in discussions and to raise these concerns in the European Union and the North Atlantic Council:

* Can the current Russian authorities be called adequate strategic partners of the EU;
* Can the family of European democratic countries pursue a mutually beneficial dialogue with a country that uses heavy military armour against an independent country;
* It is pointlessness to continue a “visa facilitation” program with a country that does not meet even the minimal requirements set by the EU and which uses visa facilitation to issue Russian Federation passports to foreigners and then abuses this EU given privilege to claim intervention rights such as "we are protecting Russian citizens" in South Ossetia.
* The actions of the Russian Federation in Georgia should influence the talks with the Russian Federation, including negotiations on the new Partnership and Cooperation Agreement.

We underline the obvious bankruptcy of Russian “peacekeeping operations” in its immediate neighbourhood. The Russian Federation has overstepped a red-line in keeping the peace and stability in the conflict zone and in protecting Russian citizens outside its own borders.

The EU and NATO must take the initiative and stand-up against the spread of imperialist and revisionist policy in the East of Europe. New international peacekeeping forces should be created as the current setting proved to be ineffective.

We regret that not granting of the NATO's Membership Action Plan (MAP) to Georgia was seen as a green light for agression in the region.

We believe that the EU and NATO as the key organizations for European and Transatlantic stability and security should play a leading and crucial role in securing freedom, security and prosperity of countries not only in the EU but also in the neighboring European area.

It a litmus-test for the credibility of the EU and NATO to solve the conflict in its immediate neighborhood and to prove for all EU and NATO members, aspirant countries and democratic partners that it is worth being members and partners of these organizations.

This Declaration is open for the accession by the leaders of other democratic countries.

President of the Republic of Estonia Toomas Hendrik Ilves
President of the Republic of Latvia Valdis Zatlers
President of the Republic of Lithuania Valdas Adamkus
President of the Republic of Poland Lech Kaczyński

georgiandaily.com - Joint statement on Georgia-Russia War by Presidents of Poland, Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania (http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5572&Itemid=65)


In the White House, there is no time for speeches and on the job training. Senator McCain will bring a time of experience to the campaign. I will bring a lifetime of experience and Senator Obama will bring a speech he gave in 2002. I think that is a significant difference. I think that since we now know Senator Mc Cain will be the nominee for the party, national security will be front and center in this election. We all know that. And I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander in chief threshold. And I believe that I have done that. Certainly Senator McCain has done that. And you will have to ask Senator Obama with respect to his candidacy."
Evita statement to CNN 3/8/08

There is much more to this issue than petty domestic politics. But you brought it up so the question for the American people is ;who is better equipt to lead America during these quick changing international crisis ?

Let's put it this way ; BO is Chair of the Foreign Relations subcommittee on European Affairs . Why has he not called his committee into a special session ? His vacation ?For that matter ;why has he not held even one committee meeting since he threw his hat in the ring ?

All US efforts to offer Georgia membership of Nato should be halted asap.

Or it could be the delaying the entry of Georgia was taken as a green light by the Ruskies for this aggression .

I thought you guys would like John "shoot from the hip" McCain's response! It sounds so similar to what Georgey boy would say. He rescheduled his day so he was the first to comment on it. It sounded rushed to me as well!

P.S. If I had a choice I'd be perving on those volley ball girls too.

Morris had an interesting insight on OReilley: tell Putin to get the Ruskies out of Georgia and respect its territorial integrity, or Ukraine gets quick entry into NATO. Of course, we don't know anything about what is going on behind the scenes, but Putin is obviously a punk and a bully. And now he is on the radar in a major way.

Is this a coincidence ?



WASHINGTON (AP) — With a crisis of Cold War proportions brewing, President Bush demanded that Russia withdraw its troops from the former Soviet republic of Georgia.
Hours later, Russian President Dmitri Medvedev ordered a halt to the military action,
The Associated Press: Bush warns Russia; Medvedev orders halt to action (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gQYe039zkquHxitiI6u4M_TRr_BAD92GM7TG0)

Hello tom:

Boy, if the dufus in chief can stop world war III with just a phone call, then I've misjudged him.

Bwa, ha ha ha ha.

excon

Here is part of his statement . Keep in mind that the word "must " carries a lot of weight in diplomatic lingo :

Russia's government must respect Georgia's territorial integrity and sovereignty. The Russian government must reverse the course it appears to be on, and accept this peace agreement as a first step toward resolving this conflict.
RealClearPolitics - Articles - President Bush's Statement on Georgia (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/08/president_bushs_statement_on_g.html)

Personally I think there is more to it than this of course. For one thing I think the Ruskies have had a harder time of it than is being reported .

If that is the case then why did he flip and make a completely different response in less than 48 hrs? Obama's new response (after the Mai Tai wore off )
[“I condemn Russia's aggressive actions and reiterate my call for an immediate ceasefire,”.....

“Russia must stop its bombing campaign, cease flights of Russian aircraft in Georgian airspace, and withdraw its ground forces from Georgia.”

His first reply was right on and his second was more stern. So? That's what Reagan used to do. That's not a flip-flop. Did Obama say that he was giving up diplomacy for warfare?? Of course not. Obama's going to continue down a path of diplomacy and other non-war like avenues, and McCain for all his bluster will either follow Obama's lead or cause WWIII, so which one do you want, Tom??

Obama's lead?? That was good for a belly laugh. His reliance on a European style soft diplomacy is very dangerous . I hope if he ever becomes President he grows up.

I hope if he ever becomes President he grows up.He will. McCain on the other hand is ill and his faculties are failing.

Accoridng to Va Gov Tim Kaine, Russia complied with Obama's request (http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2008/08/the_morning_report_56.html).

"I think the senator's goal was to be tough and smart ... and I'm very, very happy that the senator's request for a cease-fire has been complied with" [by the Russians].

LOL. Yeah, that's it, the Russkies complied with Obama's tough, smart request. You got to hand it to the Dems, they have a really big set of... egos :rolleyes:

Hello again:

Ok, we've established that the dufus didn't do it (at least to MY satisfaction). Obama didn't do it. Fer sure, McCain didn't do it. Who did?

excon

I could almost buy into that argument, Maybe the Ruskies want an American President who would give a weak-kneed vascillating response. Then again I rather think that they prefer to know what we really think.

The Russians, along with most of the international front, knows McCain's just a waste of hearing aid batteries. He should retire to his home in Arizona.

He will. McCain on the other hand is ill and his faculties are failing.

What a load of crap, NK.

McCain's Healthy Prognosis (http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1809200,00.html)

Sorry Speech he doesn't look like a well man:

1xalbKj1uVI

Sorry Speech he doesn't look like a well man:

Like I said, what a load of crap, NK. Of course I'm sure you think Obama has the golden tongue...

ThEAO0lt4Dw

No it's not a load of crap my dear Steve-o. You don't want a senile man with diminishing capacities answering that 3 a.m. call especially considering the amount of wars he seems interested in starting. I'll take the guy that says "uh" over someone having mini-strokes and trying to lead a nation.

Has anyone else noticed how popular our leftists are with foreigners?

Yes. I noticed that when traveling and on these boards. Lefties appear less ignorant, and bull headed in the eyes of the international community. Unfortunately Dubya has done very little to demonstrate otherwise.

Has anyone else noticed how popular our leftists are with foreigners?So who are the righties popular with outside the USA?

Hello again:

Ok, we've established that the dufus didn't do it (at least to MY satisfaction). Obama didn't do it. Fer sure, McCain didn't do it. Who did?

excon

The French and German foreign minister flew immediately to Moscow. Maybe it was them?

Actually I think Nicolas Sarkozy had a lot to do with it as well!

Yeah the Ruskies bow to the demands of the EU lol... Seriously I agree that Sarkosy was a player also.

Next in Putin's sights is Eastern Ukrane . By the time he is finished the Germans will be begging us to redeploy the3rd Army in their beer halls to guard against the Ruskies pouring through the Fulda Gap.

especially considering the amount of wars he seems interested in starting.

Ignoring the juvenile mini stroke remark, how many wars exactly has John McCain WANTED to start? Since the '100 years' quote was entirely about a peace time presence with our soldiers not being in harm's way, that's the first one that doesn't count (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/hoping_for_100_years.html).


The Annenberg Political Fact Check, a nonprofit and nonpartisan project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania, says: "It's a rank falsehood for the DNC to accuse McCain of wanting to wage 'endless war' based on his support for a presence in Iraq something like the U.S. role in South Korea."

The Democrats are undeterred. "It's seldom you get such a clean shot," a senior Obama adviser told Politico. It's seldom that you see such a dirty lie.

how many wars exactly has John McCain WANTED to start? PdJUCU1UH2w

Nice job of fear mongering, NK. Unfortunately, the fact that there will be more wars (Georgia for instance), that we "may" have to respond elsehwere, that Weasely Clark, Pat Buchanan Scott Ritter have an opinion - mixed with unfinished quotes - does nothing to answer my question.

Apparently, Russia changed its mind about complying with Obama's request.

Georgian villages burned and looted as Russian tanks advance (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia.russia7)

Weasely Clark?? Lol He almost started a world war against the Ruskies in June 1999.

Apparently, Russia changed its mind about complying with Obama's request.

Georgian villages burned and looted as Russian tanks advance (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia.russia7)LOL! When Russia halts its advances you guys claim it's because of Bush (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/georgia-not-peach-state-247178-2.html#post1210528) but when they attacks it's to slam Obama. You guys are like our own personal Fox News. Harhar.

LOL! When Russia halts its advances you guys claim it's because of Bush (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/georgia-not-peach-state-247178-2.html#post1210528) but when they attacks it's to slam Obama. You guys are like our own personal Fox News. harhar.

Um, I attribute it to Obama's menacing "it's not in the Olympic spirit" challenge.

UK professor discusses Georgia - Breaking News - Kentucky.com (http://www.kentucky.com/181/story/488081.html)


The Russia and Georgia relationship: “With the collapse of the Soviet Union, it was very hard for many people to see Georgia break away. Parts of Georgia resisted (the collapse) and said they wanted to remain aligned with Russia and those regions were Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Georgian authorities have actually not had control of those areas since the early days of the Republic of Georgia.”...

Who is to blame?: “I think we saw this past week mistakes made by a number of players. The Georgian government responding to provocations of artillery attack and maybe a thought that here was the time to solve this problem militarily … and also a mistake by the Russian government responding with clearly a disproportionate use of force to stop this fighting.”




1]? Why did Georgia just not let these regions stay with Russia?

2]? Why is Russia using this as an excuse to invade Georgia, not just aid Ossetia?

3]? Why does Russia has a problem with USA being friendly, diplomatic ;) , with Ukraine and Georgia, while Russia is "friendly" with Cuba and Venuezuela?

4]? How much of this is about OIL ?




Georgia fighting threat to oil supply - World - Kentucky.com (http://www.kentucky.com/267/story/487228.html)

Oil traders on Monday shrugged off Russia's widening invasion of neighboring Georgia, but if the conflict spreads further it could threaten nearly 1 million barrels per day of needed global crude supplies from the Caspian Sea, most of it bound for Europe.

Uh oh, this could be McCain's October Surprise (http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/billmarjenhoff/gG5bkQ)! I say hogwash, this is the prelude to Bush canceling the election and naming himself "Dictator For Life."

1]? Why did Georgia just not let these regions stay with Russia?

2]? Why is Russia using this as an excuse to invade Georgia, not just aid Ossetia?

3]? Why does Russia has a problem with USA being friendly, diplomatic ;) , with Ukraine and Georgia, while Russia is "friendly" with Cuba and Venuezuela?

4]? How much of this is about OIL ?


1. and 2.territiorial integrity... why did the Ruskies give the Russian speaking Georgians Russian passports ? This is Sudetenland all over again.

2.and 4. This is all about the Baku pipelines. The Ruskies want to control EU energy access.

3. The Ruskies have used a lot of nonsensical moral equivalent arguments in ths conflict and sadly many in the West has echoed it.

So who are the righties popular with outside the USA?

See, that's why you folks don't get it.

The "righties" are not concerned with who they are popular with outside the USA, they are more concerned with keeping this the land of the free and home of the brave, and with not allowing the socialists to convert our great nation to the failed policies of redistribution of wealth and the condemning of a capitalist form of government, like the Europeans.

The right stands by it's beliefs, regardless of "public opinion overseas", because our country was founded on freedom, not on a marxist agenda, that puts the government in control of every aspect of our lives.

I love it! McCain for once, tried to distant himself from Bush and ended up looking like the war tyrant for his effort. Meanwhile Bush and Obama went the diplomacy route and French President Nicolas Sarkozy negotiated a ceasefire. ;)

So why are you fighting wars and building multimillion dollar embassies in foreign countries? Why does so much money flow to Israel and Saudi Arabia when New Orleans is still a mess, your educational system is broken, health care is a major issue, there is nothing that replaced the twin towers, etc?

The right stands by it's beliefs, regardless of "public opinion overseas", because our country was founded on freedom, not on a marxist agenda, that puts the government in control of every aspect of our lives.


What textbook taught you that propaganda? Founded on freedom? For who? Slaves? Native Indians? Mexico that once ruled over their northern territory? Voting that was nonexistent for women?

Bush went the tough talk route followed up by a Trumanesque Berlin style air lift.

"Mr. Bush also announced that a massive U.S. humanitarian effort was already in progress, and would involve U.S. aircraft as well as naval forces. A U.S. C-17 military cargo plane loaded with supplies is already on the way, and Mr. Bush said that Russia must ensure that "all lines of communication and transport, including seaports, roads and airports," remain open to let deliveries and civilians through."
Bush Says Rice to Go to Tbilisi To Work on Diplomatic Solutions - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121861293239936401.html?mod=hps_us_whats_news)

Give Obama a couple of weeks ;he would've figured it out .

What textbook taught you that propaganda? Founded on freedom? For who? Slaves?! Native Indians?! Mexico that once ruled over their northern territory?! Voting that was nonexistent for women?!

Talk about getting off subject?

What do any of those comments have to do with the difference between capitalism and socialism, or with caring what the Europeans, or anyone else for that matter, thinks about the United States?

America did not invent slavery, they may have participated in the disgraceful practice, but then, so did the very country that sold them into slavery to begin with. Attitudes were much different then.

Sure, the Europeans that escaped the redistribution of wealth there, that came here to start a new Nation, had to defeat the Native Americans in order to do so. Men have been taking over territories and nations from others since the beginning of human existence. It was certainly not invented, by the brave men who established this free Nation.

I love it! McCain for once, tried to distant himself from Bush and ended up looking like the war tyrant for his effort. Meanwhile Bush and Obama went the diplomacy route and French President Nicolas Sarkozy negotiated a ceasefire. ;)

Obama hasn't exactly hit any home runs during his "first real time foreign policy crisis (http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/08/obama_faces_first_real_time_fo.html)."


Meanwhile, on the political side, the Obama team picked a fight, attacking McCain senior foreign-policy adviser Randy Scheunemann because he represented Georgia in Washington. But that gave McCain's side a chance to say what, exactly, is wrong with helping a fledgling democracy?

Sarkozy got two RBIs yesterday when he drove in Obama and Dubya. Meanwhile Republican Lynn Sweet was writing for the back pages of poor sports section when McCain stuck out again. Scheunemann tactical campiagn error should get him demoted to bat boy. With advisers like that, McCain's going to be a free agent after November. I love it! :)

Perhaps the EU got lucky that Sarkosy is in the rotation as EU President . France is pretty much energy self sufficient so he won't be held hostage by Ivan . Obama has been at best yelling platitudes while warming the bench .Perhaps it is useful instruction on how to be Presidential watching President Bush lead on this issue.

Perhaps it is useful instruction on how to be Presidential watching President Bush lead on this issue.You mean by watching the arses of girls 1/3 his age?

I love it! Tom's got one huge McCain campaign catastrophe on his hands. He can't knock Obama without knocking the guy he voted for twice, Dubya! I didn't think it was possible that an American candidate could put more effort into nurturing wars than Bush, but McCain has proved the impossible this week. Yup! He finally managed to find one issue to separate himself from Dubya. Way to go "old white haired dude"... if it takes a hundred years. :eek: :D

... Why does so much money flow to Israel and Saudi Arabia when New Orleans is still a mess, your educational system is broken, health care is a major issue, etc?
You can remove education and health care from your list of complaints; there is too much government money and control going into them now.

BTW I think New Orleans is now the fastest growing city in the US by percentages. Mainly due to people moving back since reconstruction after the Katrina disaster. Personally once would be enough for me, if I had been a previous resident of Orleans. I heard from a construction company owner recently that is based out of Midland Odessa (Texas) and he said the quality of housing being thrown together there is cheap. As interesting and unique as the culture is in N.O. jazz music and French cuisine, I would pass on the location. My mother is retired school teacher and has an expensive poodle of show dog pedigree that she takes with her as she travels once a year to attend a French festival in California. I've been through Vancouver (Canada), but would like to visit Montreal, Quebec.

... but would like to visit Montreal, Quebec.I can show you around. :)

Probably a few years away with my schedule. I've got to head back to SE Asia, check on my second home and attend a wedding, in 2009. I've got that on my radar first then I'm thinking of buying another house in the US (I sold mine years ago), when this slow market finally bottoms out. If I can ever make it out your way I'll email you in advance. Thanks for the invite. I'd love that!

Tom's got one huge McCain campaign catastrophe on his hands

Keep thinking that . This crisis plays right into McCain's strength and exposes Obama for being the indecisive waffler he is.

A foggy reality is slowly sinking in on Tom's ship. McCain got torpedoed by Bush (of all people), Obama, and ninety percent of the civilized international community. The "old white haired dude" was primed with a one finger on the red button for the next hundred years of war. This is the kind of exposure John McCain deserves for believing his neanderthal foreign advisor. How fitting! Bwa ha ha ha!

The truth is that the last 3 Presidents since the fall of the Soviet Union had this quaint notion that Russia could be seduced into joining the civilized nations .

McCain understands this as wishful thinking .He said when he looked in Putin's eyes he saw KGB. He was correct long before the events of last week.

The Ruskie tanks rolling has forced President Bush to reassess his noble efforts to find common ground with the thugs in Moscow. But for now President Bush is trying to salvage what remains of the US Russian potamkin relationship .That is why Condi Rice ;a long time Russophile was sent on her diplomatic junket.

But the truth is that as the Ruskies have spit on the world wide effort to appease them ,Bush's rhetoric is falling more in line with reality .Too bad Sec. Def. Gates is still using appeaser language.

America will have a real choice ;McCain with his finger on the pulse of reality ;or BO with his pie-in-the-sky flowery kumbaya speeches. The only hope for BO is that he has Zbigniew Brzezinski on his advisery staff

America will have a real choice ;McCain with his finger on the pulse of reality ;or BO with his pie-in-the-sky flowery kumbaya speeches.Thank you Fox News! http://i.pbase.com/u2/gube2/upload/18104940.animgifsmileybiglaughlaugh.gif

I guess London Telegraph is a FOX affiliate .

Crisis in Georgia highlights John McCain's strengths - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/08/15/dl1502.xml)

But the truth is that as the Ruskies have spit on the world wide effort to appease them ,Bush's rhetoric is falling more in line with reality .Too bad Sec. Def. Gates is still using appeaser language.


I watched Gates on a C-Span replay of the news briefing from the Pentagon, 08/14/2008. His language was near perfect, not what we want to hear, of course; but he said responsibility lies with the president up to this point. Am I correct in saying that the Russians are forty (40) miles outside Tbilisi? "There were also conflicting reports that Russian troops had overrun the city of Gori while Georgian forces were concentrating on holding Mtskheta, 15 miles from the capital." Georgia 'overrun' by Russian troops as full-scale ground invasion begins | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1043236/Georgia-overrun-Russian-troops-scale-ground-invasion-begins.html)
The point Gates made that impressed me is that there are many conflicting reports. He said there is an assessment team on the ground, arriving in the third flight into the capitol. As we are aware having witnessed two invasions in Iraq and one in Afghanistan, it takes time to put an army on the ground; and ours is not there. The bigger issue, pointed out by Gates' remarks, is what happens next? What happens if the Russians occupy the capitol?

But Gates did not leave the question open . He said :


"I don't see any prospect for the use of military force by the United States in this situation,"

That was an important signal... a mistake Ronnie Reagan would never make.

Secretary Gates said, as I recall, "The United States spent 45 years working very hard to avoid a military confrontation with Russia," said Gates. "I see no reason to change that approach today." The Associated Press: Gates warns Russia to pull back in Georgia fight (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gnPpwRiOsjgI0z57NytZve0-sHMgD92I6BPG0) That was on 08/14/2008. He didn't say what approach the US should take on 08/15/2008, or thereafter. It is not his position to state publicly what the US will do, anyway.
John Bolton writes: "...the United States needs some straight talk with our friends in Europe... However, Russia did not invade Georgia with diplomats or roubles, but with tanks. This is a security threat, and the proper forum for discussing security threats on the border of a Nato member – yes, Europe, this means Turkey – is Nato."
John Bolton: After Russia's invasion of Georgia, what now for the West? - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2563260/John-Bolton-After-Russias-invasion-of-Georgia-what-now-for-the-West.html)

Hello:

Here it is, four days later... The true impact of the event is just NOW sinking in. Both candidates have come to similar positions. Among the three, the only wuss is the dufus in chief who is going on vacation??

What should we DO now, instead of go shopping? Pappa Bush surly didn't like sovereign nations being invaded. He went in and threw the invaders out. Sonny boy looks at butts and goes on vacation. What happened to his balls?

If you're not worried, you should be.

excon

I agree with Bolton and am a fan of Sec Gates (especially during his CIA years ) .But unfortunately I do not feel NATO is up to the task... And if it is ;only because ,as is always the case; because the US leads.

Even in the Clintoon days the US had to provide the bulk of the muscle to any NATO initiative . On their own the Europeans watched helpless as genocide was occurring in their own backyard in the Balkans.

The diplomatic efforts in my opinion reek of Munich 1938 ;and the comparison is fitting in many other ways . It was the concern of the plight of ethnic Germans that was the justification for the occupation of the Sudetenland and the subsequent invasion of Czechoslovakia. Poland was next . Is Ukraine the next Poland ?

No wonder the Poles were so quick to embrace the US Missile shield yesterday . They know that they cannot count on the EU for their security.

What should we DO now, instead of go shopping? Pappa Bush surly didn't like sovereign nations being invaded. He went in and threw the invaders out. Sonny boy looks at butts and goes on vacation. What happened to his balls?

If you're not worried, you should be.

excon
Papa Bush took six months to place an invading army in place. What do you recommend? By the way, you buying gold while it's on sale?

I agree with Bolton and am a fan of Sec Gates (especially during his CIA years ) .But unfortunately I do not feel NATO is up to the task....And if it is ;only because ,as is always the case; because the US leads.

This is not a neighborhood fire and requires a very long hose. Do you think the president can send Putin an ultimatum? What would it say? I believe that is why Secretary Gates is saying, at this point, it will take years for the Russian government to undo the damage; but that if further damage is carried out, we are considering our options.

Papa Bush took six months to place an invading army in place. What do you recommend? By the way, you buying gold while it's on sale?Hello again, George:

To me, it seems that Russia is intent on flexing it's cold war muscles again. Instead of sending food and clothing, which we would have done if a hurricane had hit, we should have sent in the 82nd Airborne.

I don't know. I thought you righty's were tough.

Yes, I'm buying. It's cheap.

excon

By the way, you buying gold while it's on sale? I think the gold bubble burst

Also as I recall it was Maggie Thatcher who got Bush sr. to get the ball rolling in 1990.

Both candidates have come to similar positions. Among the three, the only wuss is the dufus in chief who is going on vacation?????

If you're not worried, you should be.

excon

Oh yeah, I'm worried, but have to disagree about your "wuss" statement.

I think that when Obama, made the statement that the United Nations should take care of this "situation" not only proves his "wuss" status, but also highlights his true lack of knowledge and experience.

Already addressed in a previous post, but have to reiterate, shouldn't a potential future President of the US know that Russia has veto power over anything the UN would come up with.

Totally ridiculous, and I have to say, ignorant.

I dunno. I thought you righty's were tough.

excon
You, Obama, and the rest of the peaceniks have been complaining for years about cowboy diplomacy; why not make up your minds? Besides, since when have you advocated the U.S. occupying the world?

George ;I addressed what I thought we should do comment #17 here :


There is a certain logic that we will not commit to an armed conflict with them over Gerogia ;but they are close to stepping into a hornets nest there.

This very well could be their "Iraq". Note that the Georgian Army fell back instead of drawing a line and standing to fight. The Ruskies are walking into territory where the population has a vivid memory of the last time the Ruskies occupied them. The Georgian Army looks to me to be falling back intact to a defensive position in the Lesser Caucasus Mts. If the Ruskies bog down then expect an Iraqi style insurgency .

Notable is the fact that there are many US advisors on the ground with presumably plenty of experience in that type of combat . IEDs anyone ? Night raids on isolated Ruskie units ? They will rue the day they crossed through Roki Tunnel .If push comes to shove a strategically placed bomb could cut off the Ruskie land route supplyline . Then a couple of strategically placed mines in the Black Sea could really give them problems. Expect the US to transfer SAM and anti-tank capability to the Georgians.

Talking about history ;check out the fierceness of the Georgian fighter throughout history ;especially the Hulagu Khan's army . Let the Ruskies bleed for a while.

My guess is that when a final settlement is made that South Ossetia will be permitted to become semi-autonomous .The Ruskie KGB kleptocrats who keep summer homes there will be able to hide the rubles they skim from the oil revenue and will be happy.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/current-events/war-protesters-247746-2.html

Totally ridiculous, and I have to say, ignorant.
Whoa, there; you calling a liberal, 'ignorant'? You must be, not only a racist, but a bigoted racist at that. Remember, he is 'the one we've been waiting on'.

You, Obama, and the rest of the peaceniks have been complaining for years about cowboy diplomacy; why not make up your minds? Besides, since when have you advocated the U.S. occupying the world?

Since I was 4.

By the way, George, a peacenik, I'm not. You happened on the scene here somewhat late. In fact, I'm hawkier than the hawks here are in terms of the war on terror. I just happen to recognize that Iraq ISN'T part of it. It's all here for you to peruse.

excon

I agree with Bolton and am a fan of Sec Gates (especially during his CIA years ) .But unfortunately I do not feel NATO is up to the task... And if it is ;only because ,as is always the case; because the US leads.

Even in the Clintoon days the US had to provide the bulk of the muscle to any NATO initiative . On their own the Europeans watched helpless as genocide was occurring in their own backyard in the Balkans.

The diplomatic efforts in my opinion reek of Munich 1938 ;and the comparison is fitting in many other ways . It was the concern of the plight of ethnic Germans that was the justification for the occupation of the Sudetenland and the subsequent invasion of Czechoslovakia. Poland was next . Is Ukraine the next Poland ?

No wonder the Poles were so quick to embrace the US Missile shield yesterday . They know that they cannot count on the EU for their security.

Interesting comments by the Polish PM on this:


Polish officials said the agreement would strengthen the mutual commitment of the United States to defend Poland, and vice versa. “Poland and the Poles do not want to be in alliances in which assistance comes at some point later — it is no good when assistance comes to dead people (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/europe/16poland.html?hp),” the Polish prime minister, Donald Tusk, said on Polish television. “Poland wants to be in alliances where assistance comes in the very first hours of — knock on wood — any possible conflict.”

Whoa, there; you calling a liberal, 'ignorant'? You must be, not only a racist, but a bigoted racist at that. Remember, he is 'the one we've been waiting on'.

Oh my God, you're right, how shameful of me!

We both better take our tongues out of our cheeks, or no one will be able
To understand what we're saying.

Since I was 4.

By the way, George, a peacenik, I'm not...In fact, I'm hawkier than the hawks here are in terms of the war on terror....

excon
Well, a liberal hawk, and, meaning no disrespect, an old, liberal hawk at that cause there are none left on the national scene, anyway. The vast majority of liberals couldn't care less about property rights. If one doesn't care about property rights, why care about the invasion of Georgia? Humanitarianism? What is that? Other than liberal double-speak about caring about someone's conditions without addressing the cause of the conditions.

Well, a liberal hawk, and, meaning no disrespect, an old, liberal hawk at that cause there are none left on the national scene, anyway. The vast majority of liberals couldn't care less about property rights. If one doesn't care about property rights, why care about the invasion of Georgia? Humanitarianism? What is that? Other than liberal double-speak about caring about someone's conditions without addressing the cause of the conditions.

Oh NO!

You have ignited another bonfire in my long list of problems with the direction this Nation is headed.

Eminent Domain. What Bull Crap.

If there is anything that the American public should be up in arms about, it is the growing practice of taking private property away from it's owner, simply because the government says so!

URGGGGG! I don't even want to get started on this one today!

I'm speaking of the satellite state, now country, of the former USSR, that's struggling toward a faint resemblance of democracy, but just had it's doors kicked in by Russia.

So how did all this get started? According to Buchanan, "Mikheil Saakashvili's decision to use the opening of the Olympic Games to cover Georgia's invasion of its breakaway province of South Ossetia must rank in stupidity with Gamal Abdel-Nasser's decision to close the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships.

"After shelling and attacking what he claims is his own country, killing scores of his own Ossetian citizens and sending tens of thousands fleeing into Russia, Saakashvili's army was whipped back into Georgia in 48 hours." Blowback From Bear-Baiting - HUMAN EVENTS (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053)

George Pat's history left out plenty of provocation by the Ruskies before Georgia decided to move into S.Ossetia .

Actually Georgia has been under attack in one way or another since the Rose Revolution. Russia's goal is the Finlandization of it's former satellite states.
Read Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili's oped . He details some of the Ruskie abuses.

Mikheil Saakashvili - Russia's War Is The West's Challenge - washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/13/AR2008081303364.html)

So how did all this get started? According to Buchanan, "Mikheil Saakashvili's decision to use the opening of the Olympic Games to cover Georgia's invasion of its breakaway province of South Ossetia must rank in stupidity with Gamal Abdel-Nasser's decision to close the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships.

"After shelling and attacking what he claims is his own country, killing scores of his own Ossetian citizens and sending tens of thousands fleeing into Russia, Saakashvili's army was whipped back into Georgia in 48 hours." Blowback From Bear-Baiting - HUMAN EVENTS (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053)

The history of the disputed territory, and people, goes back to the USSR breakup. Ask Buchanan if Dubya was warming up his vocals for singing the national anthem when he started his screaming match with Putin at the Olympics opening ceremony.

But Gates did not leave the question open . He said :



That was an important signal .... a mistake Ronnie Reagan would never make.

Realistically, how could the USA even think about an armed conflict?
- Iraq and Afghanistan are costing $$$$$ and military resources, economy is not so hot, USA energy sources still questionable. I think Putin knows this.

In Russia's backyard?

For what national security purpose?

I say let the Europeans and the UN handle this one- if they have the will or ability to.
Let them learn how to defend themselves.


We have more on our plate right now, to be taking on another problem.

Realistically, how could the USA even think about an armed conflict?

I outlined through 3 posts now what I think the US should be doing. It does not involved US armed conflict. It does involve us materially helping Georgia in their defense .


I say let the Europeans and the UN handle this one- if they have the will or ability to.
Let them learn how to defend themselves.


We tried that twice in the 20th Century . How did that work out ?

I outlined throught 3 posts now what I think the US should be doing. It does not involved US armed conflict. It does involve us materially helping Georgia in their defense .



We tried that twice in the 20th Century . How did that work out ?


What you don't have any confidence on the UN or the Europeans:confused: :D


But the left keeps harangue the USA as the world's policeman :confused: :D

Realistically, how could the USA even think about an armed conflict?
- Iraq and Afghanistan are costing $$$$$ and military resources, economy is not so hot, USA energy sources still questionable. I think Putin knows this.

In Russia's backyard?

For what national security purpose?

I say let the Europeans and the UN handle this one- if they have the will or ability to.
Let them learn how to defend themselves.


We have more on our plate right now, to be taking on another problem.

You are being realistic, although diplomatically there are other avenues besides the UN. This is an international chess match and Dubya (this time) is being practical for good reasons. :cool:

What you don't have any confidence on the UN or the Europeans


But the left keeps harangue the USA as the world's policeman

NATO has been figuratively dead for some time. The fact that it couldn't and wouldn't do anything about Bosnia and Kosovo until the US took the lead was a big hint.Their lame support of the Afghanistan campaign is another . Their appeasing posture regarding this Russian aggression is proof positive that it is time to disolve NATO and begin forming a League of Free Nations . Sure Western European nations would be invited to participate . But they would be no more influential than freer and braver Eastern European free nations or Japan India or Brazil .

The EU wants it's own independent foreign policy . You are right ;let them enforce it with their own muscle . Let them decide to fund their nannystates or their military. But the problem is that I know from history the United States will be dragged into their affairs again eventually when the security threats become more than their soft diplomacy can resolve.

The US called for a NATO meeting for Tuesday . Time to insist that they stop blocking Georgia and Ukraine entry into NATO and get unified support for the Polish decision to deploy defensive missile defense .