I have an IKEA farmhouse style white ceramic sink it is the "DOMSJO" double bowl model.
The sink only came with one opening for the combo hot and cold water faucet and this is installed okay. My problem is now with the dishwasher drain line. I live in California and I believe code requires an air vent in the drain line between the dishwasher and the garbage disposal under the sink. Since I have no available opening in my sink I am going to have to drill a hole in the top of the sink to install an air vent. The sink cost is about $400 and it is installed in a granite counter top. Needless to say I have to drill the sink very carefully. Has anyone seen this before or had any experience with this problem?:eek:

Ya just don't go drilling into a $400 ceramic sink. You install the air gap on the countertop.(see image). But if the job won't be inspected I have a better way that doesn't include drilling anything and will give you less service problems then a countertop air gap. This has been proven by the number of complaints we get on counter top air gaps against the zero complaints we get on high loop air gaps. High loop air gaps are used everywhere except in Cal or places that fall under the UPC Plumbing Code. Now growler and Milo won't agree, (because I'm going against their code) but I'm going to show you how to install a high loop air gap,(see image) that will be trouble free for the life of the dishwasher. Take the dishwasher hose and loop it up as high as it will go under the cabinet. Secure it up there with a pipe strap or band iron and then down to connect into the disposal or a branch tailpiece, (see image). That's all there is to it. No holes! No chance of ruining a costly sink or counter top and a air gap that has been proven to give less problems then a counter top one. A win-win situation don't you think? Good luck, tom

I would not try to drill the sink. It may be impossible to do with Home Depot type tools. I would rather drill into granite counter top on side of the sink. Or omit the air gap completely.

This is the problem purchasing Ikea plumbing fixtures. They don't follow US dimensions and Codes.

Unfortunately, air gaps are strictly enforced in California.

Now there you go again! Millo, don't you agree that this is his easiest and best shot? If not why not? Besides the dreaded UPC. Are you guys really forced to pull a permit when you install a dishwasher? Cheers, Tom

Tom: By Law, you are required to purchase City Permit for every project worth $100.00 or more.

Now there you go again! Millo, don't you agree that this is his easiest and best shot?

Easiest isn't always best, Tom.


If not why not?

Well, aside from creating an unsanitary condition, it would also be considered unlawful, Tom.

I sometimes wonder if you fully understand the repercussions of advising a poster to circumvent local codes.

When a municipality adopts a code, Tom, that code is codified as law, which means one can be prosecuted or levied fines if the code is abrogated.


Besides the dreaded UPC. Are you guys really forced to pull a permit when you install a dishwasher? Cheers, Tom

The OP is doing more than installing a dishwasher, Tom -- He is also installing a sink.

Thanks everyone for such a quick response.
The drain loop under the counter certainly works fine for me. The problem is when or if I try and sell the house I'm sure the inspector is going to want to see an air gap installed in that Dishwasher drain. So it looks like the best option is to go through the granite next to the sink, and hope that will meet the code.

Malcolmt: Or you can do the "loop" instalation for now and when you are ready to sell your house then have a hole drilled in granite and install Air Gap. It is not a big project to do and will require only a Service Call type visit from your local plumber.

Originally Posted by speedball1
Now there you go again! Millo, don't you agree that this is his easiest and best shot?
Easiest isn't always best, Tom.
It is in this case growler. You and I have been over this road before. It's a proven fact that a high loop gives less problems then a counter top air gap.
A quick check of complaints about counter top air gaps as per against complaints against high loops on this page will bear me out.

I sometimes wonder if you fully understand the repercussions of advising a poster to circumvent local codes. This forum isn't about keeping a asker within code. It's about giving them the easiest solution to their problems. Case in point! A asker with a 100 year old farmhouse has a blockage in his kitchen sink. I find out that the house was plumbed back in the 1890's with "S" traps throughout. Now what am I going to do? Insist that he repipe all of the drainage that has been working for the last 100 years to bring his house up to code or do I instruct him how to clear the blockage?
I've been trying to get you West Coast guys to think outside the box on this page and to look beyond the code. Be a little more flexable in your answers but you hang tough to UPC and I'm fighting a losing battle here. Like I said, the Plumbing Page isn't about bringing the entire nation up to code, it's about solving a askers problem the fastest easiest way for him. And if that way conflicts with a silly local code then so be it. Regards, Tom

Ya just don't go drilling into a $400 ceramic sink. You install the air gap on the countertop.(see image).

Hey Speedball - I am new to this forum, and my Wife and I are purchasing our first home in Los Angeles. The house is old (1950) and the dishwasher was installed without an air gap or high loop. We plan to remodel the kitchen in the next several years, and since the sink is a porcelain sink, I think I will go with the high loop for now and will have an air gap installed when we remodel the kitchen.

Anyway, I read your instructions and will go with that, but your images are no longer in this thread. Do you still have them? Can you re-post them or email them to me?

Thank you for your assistance!

Sincerely,
David

Hey Speedball - I am new to this forum, and my Wife and I are purchasing our first home in Los Angeles. The house is old (1950) and the dishwasher was installed without an air gap or high loop. We plan to remodel the kitchen in the next several years, and since the sink is a porcelain sink, I think I will go with the high loop for now and will have an air gap installed when we remodel the kitchen.

Anyway, I read your instructions and will go with that, but your images are no longer in this thread. Do you still have them? Can you re-post them or email them to me?

Thank you for your assistance!

Sincerely,
David

David, I hate to give you bad news, but: it is against the Code in Los Angeles to install Dishwasher w/o Air Gap. In fact, if your DW doesn't have one than it should be pointed out during pre-closing inspection by your Inspector and corrected before escrow papers were signed.

Hi Milo,
Yes, I know that it is against CA code. The inspector did make note of that in the report, and we will be completely re-doing the kitchen in the near future. When we do, we will be putting in a new sink and dishwasher and will have an air gap installed. Due to the way that this dishwasher was installed by the previous owner, there is no place for me to install an air gap. So, to make due in the mean time, I will need to install a high loop so that I minimize the risk of contamination for the time being.

Thank you for your advice.

If anyone has any photos of a high loop for my reference, I would greatly appreciate it.

-David

If anyone has any photos of a high loop for my reference, I would greatly appreciate it.
Sorry my images didn't stay up. I've lost a lot of them. This is a site problem the super mods must work on. Here's a high loop instalation. I've also put up a branch tailpiece in case you don't have a disposal. And if the disposal's new don't forget to remove the "knock out plug" before connecting the DW hose. Good luck, Tom

Hi Milo,
Yes, I know that it is against CA code. The inspector did make note of that in the report, and we will be completely re-doing the kitchen in the near future. When we do, we will be putting in a new sink and dishwasher and will have an air gap installed.

When you do the remodel, you should consider using a Johnson Tee instead of a counter mounted airgap.

I still say a "johnson Tee" looks like a copper high loop dumped into a washer stand pipe with a external vent. Cheers, Tom

Thank you, Speedball and Iamgrowler...

Is the common consensus still to do a counter mounted air gap, or is the Johnson tee a better option? Does the Johnson tee satisfy California code, or would it still not be adequate?

-David

I might be a bit late on this one but I just bought a domsjo sink and it has 2 knock outs either side of the faucet hole which can be opened up for soap dispensers, air gaps etc. don't know if this is just a recent addition to the model though.

Lots of sinks have that option. If they don't have knock-outs than we have to drill them with Starrett bits.

Thank you, Speedball and Iamgrowler....

Is the common consensus still to do a counter mounted air gap, or is the Johnson tee a better option? Does the Johnson tee satisfy California code, or would it still not be adequate?

-David

I still say a "johnson Tee" looks like a copper high loop dumped into a washer stand pipe with a external vent.

The Johnson Tee is similar to the high loop but the difference I see is that the high loop doesn't prevent a plugged sink trap or disposal from backing up waste into the dishwasher, while the Johnson tee gives the dishwasher an independent trap. Seems like a deck mounted air gap is effective because it spits the backed up waste in you face! Just as a point of reference here's a line from the Bellevue Washington building permit: "Dishwashers require an air gap. An air gap can be a deck mount or a Johnson tee type with required trim vent. (UPC 807.4 & 314.0 with exceptions per manufacturer)".

the high loop doesn't prevent a plugged sink trap or disposal from backing up waste into the dishwasher,
OK! I'm ready to learn if the laws of physics have been changed. All you have to do is explain to me how a sink, (unless you let it back up and overflow the rim) can possibly back up high enough to overflow into a high loop? You repair plumbers out there. How many times have you walked into a kitchen sink stoppage where the OP has allowed the sink to oveflow the rim? Inquiring minds want to know. Cheers Tom

Sensible question. I'm certainly not a plumbing expert, but some naïve faith in our government by and for the people makes me keep looking for a reason that plumbing codes seem to universally ignore your high loop solution. What if I took a plunger to my plugged sink? Might that force waste into the dishwasher without violating the laws of physics?

OK! I'm ready to learn if the laws of physics have been changed. All you have to do is explain to me how a sink, (unless you let it back up and overflow the rim) can possibly back up high enough to overflow into a high loop? You repair plumbers out there. How many times have you walked into a kitchen sink stoppage where the the OP has allowed the sink to oveflow the rim? Inquiring minds wanna know. Cheers Tom

Actually, it happens all the time.

A clog in the main and draining a bathtub or taking a shower in the bathroom above the kitchen will cause the water to back up into and overflow the kitchen sink.

I've seen it happen, Tom.

Also, Tom, saying "a "johnson Tee" looks like a copper high loop dumped into a washer stand pipe with a external vent" is incorrect:

The "external vent" as you call it (actually an air gap/break) is installed a minimum of 1" above the countertop.

Sensible question. I'm certainly not a plumbing expert, but some naive faith in our government by and for the people makes me keep looking for a reason that plumbing codes seem to universally ignore your high loop solution. What if I took a plunger to my plugged sink? Might that force waste into the dishwasher without violating the laws of physics?

Sure it would.

As for 'plumbing codes seeming to universally ignore his high loop solution' -- You are incorrect.

A "High Loop" is an acceptable alternative to a counter mounted air gap or Johnson Tee in areas of the country where the Standard or International Plumbing Code prevails.

Which incidentally covers about 90% of the Continental US and 100% of Canada.

You are both correct. A overflowing sink or using the plunger as a pump will put water back in the DW. But how often does that happen? Can you frind any complaints over the years? I can't!


Also, Tom, saying "a "johnson Tee" looks like a copper high loop dumped into a washer stand pipe with a external vent" is incorrect:
The "external vent" as you call it (actually an air gap/break) is installed a minimum of 1" above the countertop.
Hold da phone! You mean after all that extra pipe work in the wall for a Johnson Tee to avoid drilling the counter for a unsightly counter top air gap that you STILL have to drill the counter top so a air gap can protrude? Or is everything inside the wall? Seems like a waste of $, labor and material to me. And what drains into this "air Gap" anyhow? I thought the copper high loop waas the air gap. How many of these abortions do you guys install out there in La La Land? Regards, Tom

Hold da phone! You mean after all that extra pipe work in the wall for a Johnson Tee to avoid drilling the counter for a unsightly counter top air gap that you STILL have to drill the counter top so a air gap can protrude?

No.

The air gap is the portion of the Johnson Tee that protrudes through the exterior of the wall. And it protrudes through the exterior wall no less than 1" above the top of the flood rim of the kitchen sink.


Or is everything inside the wall?

Everything but the actual air gap, which protrudes through an exterior wall.


Seems like a waste of $, labor and material to me.

I imagine you feel that way about most of the things you don't understand, Tom.


And what drains into this "air Gap" anyhow?

That would be the dishwasher, Tom.


I thought the copper high loop waas the air gap.

No, the copper piping is a continuation of the dishwasher discharge hose.

If it was an air gap there would be a separation of not less than 1".


How many of these abortions do you guys install out there in La La Land?

Having just proven you don't have even the slightest idea how a Johnson Tee works, I'd say you are hardly in a position to criticize.


You are both correct. A overflowing sink or using the plunger as a pump will put water back in the DW. But how often does that happen? Can you frind any complaints over the years? I can't!

If it happens even once, then it is a contamination/health issue -- An issue that can be easily avoided altogether by installing an approved air gap.

You are both correct. A overflowing sink or using the plunger as a pump will put water back in the DW. But how often does that happen? Can you frind any complaints over the years? I can't!

If it happens even once, then it is a contamination/health issue -- An issue that can be easily avoided altogether by installing an approved air gap.
Please show me on any one of our complaints where this has happened? And while you're at it you can post up OP complaints about a high loops. What's that? Can't find any? Look again! Surely over the years there must have been at least one.


How many of these abortions do you guys install out there in La La Land?

Having just proven you don't have even the slightest idea how a Johnson Tee works, I'd say you are hardly in a position to criticize. Seems like a waste of $, labor and material to me.

I imagine you feel that way about most of the things you don't understand, Tom.
Growler, I've been aroiund so long that insults don't faze me
Don't ever leave you're what gives this page all its class! Cheers. Tom

Growler, I've been aroiund so long that insults don't faze me.

Those weren't insults, Tom, they were merely observations.

Now.. .

Considering the courtesy I showed in addressing your questions, why don't you go back and address the numerous points I made, 'Kay?


Those weren't insults, Tom, they were merely observations.

Now.. .

Considering the courtesy I showed in addressing your questions, why don't you go back and address the numerous points I made, 'Kay?

>checks watch<

Does this mean you have nothing more to add?

Y'know, I'd of dropped this over a year ago if you had shown me and the rest of the Experts posting here who are legally obliged to uphold the Uniform Plumbing Code a little courtesy, Tom.

But you didn't -- Not only that, you chose to abuse and continue to this very day to abuse your position as forum moderator.

And speaking of courtesy, do me and the rest of the Experts here a favor and spare us the lie that you are only 'yanking our chain' -- We're smarter than that and are fully capable of recognizing when someone is 'rubbing our noses in it' for no better reason than because they can.

You're a petty, small minded man, Tom, and it's long past time somebody finally said that to you.

>checks watch<Does this mean you have nothing more to add? No! It means I had company and didn't consider you important enough to bother with. But have some time now to respond to your accusations.

Considering the courtesy I showed in addressing your questions, why don't you go back and address the numerous points I made,
OKI! Let's start wth the copper high loop.

I said, "I thought the copper high loop waas the air gap.
And you replied , "No, the copper piping is a continuation of the dishwasher discharge hose.
If it was an air gap there would be a separation of not less than 1".
Gee Growler, That sure looks like a gap between the copper and the PVC trap.
But if you say that it's not a air gap then it must be filled with water. You're correct when you say I'm not familiar with Johnson Air Gaps. We don't liketo complicate things over here like you dudes out in La-La Land.( Now there I go again! ) But if you say there's no air gap between the copper and the trap who am I to dispute what I'm looking at and a expert on Johnson Tees.

Also, Tom, saying "a "johnson Tee" looks like a copper high loop dumped into a washer stand pipe with a external vent" is incorrect:
When you're right you're right! It couldn't be a high loop if the stand pipe wer full of water as you describe. But say, Just for the sake of argument that it wasn't filled with water. If it were air in there it would sure qualify as a high loop to me.

But let's get to the heart of your post. I'n a lot more tolerant of attacks on me then of our other experts so I won't mention that such attacks are frowned on at AMHD.

And speaking of courtesy, do me and the rest of the Experts here a favor and spare us the lie that you are only 'yanking our chain' -- We're smarter than that and are fully capable of recognizing when someone is 'rubbing our noses in it' for no better reason than because they can. Nah! I poke fun at UPC because I think some of their codes are downright laughable. Any other of you UPC guys feel personally insulted like Growler is?

you chose to abuse and continue to this very day to abuse your position as forum moderator. You're a petty, small minded man, Tom, and it's long past time somebody finally said that to you.
And now that you've painted yourself in a corner I guess your next step would be to complain to the super mods and administrater about my abuse of power. After that one of several things will happen.
1) I will be asked to retire, ( hey! That's OK too! This page doesn't really need me any more. I'm surrounded by the best plumbing experts on the web, and that includes you Growler, so if I'm out of here I can look back with pride on what's been built over the years.
2) You will be asked to tone down the attacks and lose the arrogant attitude.
And you are arrogant Growler you're "thin skined and arrogant" if disagreed with.
Perhaps you could work on that. In the mean time if working around me is so uncomfortable for you All Experts could use your expertise. I posted over there for a spell and would gtive you a glowing recommendation. Have a great day! Tom

But let's get to the heart of your post. I'n a lot more tolerant of attacks on me then of our other experts so I won't mention that such attacks are frowned on at AMHD.

>shrugs<

If you feel a frank assessment of your posting style and approach to problem solving is an attack, then report the incident to the Admins, Tom.


Nah! I poke fun at UPC because I think some of their codes are downright laughable. Any other of you UPC guys feel personally insulted like Growler is?

Tom, you do far more than "poke fun at the UPC".

You actually go out of your way to coach Posters in how to circumvent the code.

I've said this before, and I think it bears repeating: When a Municipality adopts a code, whether it's Plumbing, Electrical, Framing, HVAC etc.. . That code is codified as law and is legally enforceable -- Granted, you aren't going to be jailed, but you can have your Plumbers License suspended or revoked or financial penalties assessed if the Local Authority decides to take that action.

Y'know, most of the other Experts here seem to grasp this point fairly well, so why is it so hard for you?

If Mark, Ball, Milo, MGD, Letmetellu et al can take the time to patiently walk a Poster through a problem without resorting to coaching them in how to break the law, then why can't you?


And now that you've painted yourself in a corner I guess your next step would be to complain to the super mods and administrater about my abuse of power.

Tom, if you sincerely believe I overstepped by pointing out the obvious, then report the incident to the Super Mods and the Administrators and let the chips fall where they may.

Tom, you do far more than "poke fun at the UPC".

You actually go out of your way to coach Posters in how to circumvent the code.

I've said this before, and I think it bears repeating: When a Municipality adopts a code, whether it's Plumbing, Electrical, Framing, HVAC etc.. . That code is codified as law and is legally enforceable -- Granted, you aren't going to be jailed, but you can have your Plumbers License suspended or revoked or financial penalties assessed if the Local Authority decides to take that action.

Y'know, most of the other Experts here seem to grasp this point fairly well, so why is it so hard for you?

If Mark, Ball, Milo, MGD, Letmetellu et al can take the time to patiently walk a Poster through a problem without resorting to coaching them in how to break the law, then why can't you?

And I've repeatedly told you that The Plumbing page isn't about bringing the nation under code. This page is about getting the OP repaired and back running with the least hassle and expense. Just recently I asked the questiom, " if the Asker has a 100 year old farm house with "S" traps throughout Should I insist he tear up his walls to install vents out the roof for a clogged drain when all he has to do is snake it?
Here's a house that gets along very well, thank you , with "S" traps. We all know they're outlawed and out of code, but again, We're here to help with the immediate problem not bring him into code.
As as far as recommending high loops instead of countertop air gaps I do that because high loops function all the time while Air-gaps fail. Just look at bthe complaints we get on counter top air-gaps. Now go back and review all the posts we have ever received and pull up one single complaint about a high loop misfunctioning. Also in all the hundreds of high loops my company's installed over the years we have yet to receive our first complaint. Is it any wonder I tout high loops over a counter top one? Ta hell with da code if I can come up with something that
Works better for the asker.
Bend a little bit Growler, be a little more flexible. You're not teaching a class in code in this page!

And now that you've painted yourself in a corner I guess your next step would be to complain to the super mods and administrater about my abuse of power.

Tom, if you sincerely believe I overstepped by pointing out the obvious, then report the incident to the Super Mods and the Administrators and let the chips fall where they may.
Hey! You're the one complaining here. You're the one tossing out the insults.
you chose to abuse and continue to this very day to abuse your position as forum moderator. You're a petty, small minded man, Tom, and it's long past time somebody finally said that to you.
Ya got to complaint against me, Take it upstairs but while you're posting here, lose the arrogance and drop the attitude . PS. My offer about All-Experts still stands.

And I've repeatedly told you that The Plumbing page isn't about bringing the nation under code. This page is about getting the OP repaired and back running with the least hassle and expense.

That is a very lazy approach to problem solving, Tom.


Just recently I asked the questiom, " if the Asker has a 100 year old farm house with "S" traps throughout Should I insist he tear up his walls to install vents out the roof for a clogged drain when all he has to do is snake it?
Here's a house that gets along very well, thank you , with "S" traps. We all know they're outlawed and out of code, but again, We're here to help with the immediate problem not bring him into code.

The s-trap was code when the home was built -- Conversely the air-gap was code when it was installed.

Also, when it comes right down to it, the s-trap scenario could be brought up to code in about two hours for roughly $50.00 in parts and without having to run a vent up through the roof.


As as far as recommending high loops instead of countertop air gaps I do that because high loops function all the time while Air-gaps fail. Just look at bthe complaints we get on counter top air-gaps. Now go back and review all the posts we have ever received and pull up one single complaint about a high loop misfunctioning. Also in all the hundreds of high loops my company's installed over the years we have yet to receive our first complaint. Is it any wonder I tout high loops over a counter top one?

A high-loop malfunction is going to manifest itself as a health issue, not a Plumbing issue, Tom.

Should someone appear here complaining of botulism, ptomaine, E. coli or norovirus poisoning, they are going to be redirected to the Health forum.


Ta hell with da code if I can come up with something that
Works better for the asker.

I really wish you could see how that appears to myself and the rest of the experts here, not to mention the people asking for help.


Bend a little bit Growler, be a little more flexible. You're not teaching a class in code in this page!

Tom, if your idea of being flexible is to take the path of least resistance without even trying to do something correctly, then I don't want any part of it.

Some of us actually take pride in an honest day of hard work -- And manage to do so without compromising our principals.

Growler,
If you have a gripe about me take it up with the super mods and keep it out of this page. It's negative and unproductive. I don't allow bickering to continue between two experts and you and I are no different. Therefore, our exchange ends now. If you have anything more to say on the subject take it upstairs but this discussion is over. Regards, Tom

Growler,
If you have a gripe about me take it up with the super mods and keep it out of this page.

Well, back atcha, Tom.


It's negative and unproductive.

It is also distracting and shows a definite lack of cohesion between the boards Experts.

So knock it off already, Tom.


I don't allow bickering to continue between two experts and you and I are no different.

Too bad you didn't think of that before you made the 'abortion/la la land' comment, Tom.

You cannot simultaneously incite bickering and claim you do not allow bickering, Tom.

Well, I guess you can, but it does tend to make you sound like a hypocrite.


Therefore, our exchange ends now. If you have anything more to say on the subject take it upstairs but this discussion is over. Regards, Tom.


Nah, I've already seen the 'Circle the Wagons' dog and pony show up close and personal a few times before, not very productive at all, but hey, bring 'em on in yourself if you think it'll change your propensity for inciting discord and negative, unproductive dialogue between the boards Experts.

As I said, "Our exchange ends now!" Any farther posts on this subject will be deleted. Tom

Children: Stop fighting !

Hello all, I am glad that finally this discussion is over with, thanks to Speedball1 and Iamgrowler.

Best Regards,
John

Hello all, I am glad that finally this discussion is over with, thanks to Speedball1 and Iamgrowler.

Best Regards,
John

It is indeed over John. Peace and tranquillity reigns supreme once again.
Have yourself a great week end, Tom

I really appreciate that this forum has a variety of expert responses from different perspectives. It is important to know that a "quick fix" may not conform to code, but it still can be useful as a short-term remedy. Both iamgrowler and speedball1 have made valuable contributions to my solving a plumbing problem--can you guys be nice and cut the mudslinging? I really want your ideas, both of you!

Awb,
Your input's appreciated but in Growlers and my exchange I caught most of the mud. Even when I poke fun at growler I respect him as a plumber and as a expert. He has his methods and I have mine. But there are certain bonds here at AMHD that can't be crossed.
Growler crossed those bounds and as much as I attempted to defuse the situation it just seemed to escalate until the super mods stepped in and shut it down. I see you have a problem with your Johnson Tee. We don't use them in my area, we use high loops that don't fail, so Mile or Mygirlsdad (Lee) can field this one. Regards, Tom

Where is the image you are talking about to the question... how to vent a dishwasher.

Hello Jimcherie,
You are asking about a year old post, if you have a problem or a question please start a new thread one of the experts will respond tour question, Thanks.
John

I read your instructions and will go with that, but your images are no longer in this thread. Do you still have them? Can you re-post them or email them to me? If local codes allow, you may forgo installing an air gap and install the drainage hose with a large loop between the point where it discharges from the dishwasher and enters the sink drain. Think of a bell-shaped curve. Make sure to attach the drain hose as far up in the cabinet as you can, using hose clamps or a pipe strap to secure it, when you run it between the dishwasher and the disposal.
Your drain hose MUST be looped higher then the flood rim what you are discharging into. All that means is when you run the line, strap it up so the loop is above the inlet of the disposal or whatever you are draining into. If this is not done the water that you discharge from the sink will drain back into your dishwasher. Iuse a 3/4" copper pipe strap to secure but a nail and some wire wil;l work also. Some models may have an outlet attached to the top, but most of them will have to be strapped up. Hope this helps and thank you for rating my reply. TOM