I've taken a long time to work with my thoughts and ideals. A lot of what I've seen in the past has influenced my thoughts, now, and it makes me wonder.

If those who walk with Christ rise again, and walk with him, and those who do not walk with Christ rise first... IF there is a judgement day to be had, when it arrives, all are judged upon the earth... would not the people living upon the earth be those judged? Those who have lived upon it, and those who live upon it at present?

Would it not be a possibility that those who do not walk with Christ be those that are born again to walk the earth, again, until the judgement day; that those who walk with Christ be those which might ascend to heaven more swiftly when they die, to walk with him until the judgement day?

What might be the consequences of us all who walk on the earth, if perhaps a stray few are born and find it inside themselves to walk with christ, bringing with them several people in small handfuls, but the majority who walk on the earth, presently, are perhaps re-incarnations of those individuals who never held belief in the singular and secular faiths of christianity?

Anyone actually able to follow me at the moment? Any takers to help me convey, if you do understand what I'm saying, to those that do not understand?

Peace be with you all,

Free Dream

With the time/eternity line I am not sure exactly how the judgment 'day(s) work in heaven
BUT to explain it the best I can
I believe the judgments are like a nano second and not lengths of time.
The judgment for believers is to test their works and reward with 'crowns'; not sins

The Judgment Seat of Christ
It appears during the Rapture of the church, believers will be transformed (1Corinthians 15:51-54) and will appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ.Ý The question is, why does the church and her redeemed people have to be judged?Ý We are saved already, correct?Ý Yes, but this is not a judgment of condemnation.Ý This judgment deals with our deeds, thoughts, and words and intents.Ý Where can we find this?Ý Observe:Ý "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?Ý Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (actively homosexual) nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."Ý (1Corinthians 6:9-10)Ý We know that at this judgment believers will experience an extensive examination of our deeds, actions, thoughts and words.Ý Anything in our life that take away and distracts us from living holy and glorifying Christ will be lost, or some of our eternal rewards may be lost.Ý Anything gained from our attitudes, witness, living, prayer, and offerings (money or material) to the poor or ministries will be counted gain for God.Ý How would we know this?Ý Paul states it here:Ý "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.Ý If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.Ý If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."Ý (1Corinthians 3:12-15)Ý

It appears we will not be condemned, but our actions and deeds on earth prior to the Rapture will determine what we will gain or lose from our judgment.Ý That is why we must: "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.." (2Corinthians 13:5)Ý Everything we do is going to be examined at the judgment.Ý The Bible is not trying to tell you to work yourself to death for the sake of rewards.Ý The Bible tells us:Ý "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:Ý it is the gift of God:Ý Not of works, lest any man should boast."Ý (Ephesians 2:8-9)Ý It is the grace of God and His free gift of salvation that gives us the response to do good deeds. (James 2:14-26)Ý We do not do good things to get saved and reap heavenly rewards; we do it in response to our salvation.Ý More faithful Christians will receive more honor, rewards, joy and blessings, while less faithful Christians will receive less, based on their lifestyle and attitudes. (Revelation 3:15-19)Ý How much of your life and time do you devote to Christ?Ý Are you too busy?Ý Do you study your Bible or do you spend hours in front of television?Ý Would you live the way you do presently if Christ was there in person?Ý All these things we should consider when living for God in these last days before we are received by the returning Lord.ÝÝÝ

Judgment of the Nations
We have examined the Judgment Seat of Christ for Christians.Ý There is a second judgment, however, and it deals with more future events.ÝÝ It appears that this second judgment will take place on earth after the dreadful days of the Great Tribulation.ÝÝ Jesus will come to earth with the church (Jude verses 14-15, Revelation 19:11-16) and execute judgments on the nations of the world. (Matthew 24:29-31)Ý This particular judgment is called the Judgment of the Nations because Christ deals with each individual nation and its people for their deeds toward or against Israel.Ý (Matthew 25:31-46)Ý Those involved in the nations who were kind to Israel during the Tribulation and maybe throughout history will be judged as the "sheep."Ý (Verses 35-36)Ý Those involved in the nations who persecuted and mistreated Israel will be judged as the "goats."Ý (Verses 41-46) You can see those involved with the nations that were unfaithful and hostile towards Israel will not inherit the Millennium Kingdom of Christ and David. (Isaiah 66:13-24, Revelation 20:4-6)Ý Notice how the "sheep" go on to populate and replenish the earth during the thousand years while the wicked who somehow survived the Tribulation go on to torment. (Revelation 21:7-8)

Post-Tribulation Resurrection
There will be a resurrection once Christ comes to judge after the Tribulation.Ý This resurrection will include Old Testament and the Tribulation Saints who were beheaded by the Antichrist because they refused to receive the mark and worship his image.Ý (Revelation 15:2, 20:4) Remember how the Rapture of the church took place where the "dead in Christ" were resurrected and translated first?Ý Well this happens again at the end of the Great Tribulation:Ý "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."Ý (Revelation 20:6)ÝÝ This event is the day Christ comes to earth to judge the nations and prepare the earth for the millennium. In Revelation 20:4 John the Apostle saw thrones, and those who sat on them.Ý It appears at this judgment the Old Testament and the saints from the raptured church judge Tribulation Saints:Ý "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?Ý And if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?Ý Know ye not that we shall judge angels?Ý How much more things that pertain to this life?"Ý (1Corinthians 6:2-3)Ý After the Judgment Seat at the Rapture, the church saints are given authority:Ý "...And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."Ý (Revelation 5:10)Ý At the conclusion of this second judgment, there is yet one more group that is to be judged.Ý These are the unsaved- the ones who rejected Christ's grace and free gift of salvation.Ý

Great White Throne Judgment
The third Judgment is quite sobering.Ý Daniel and John seem to have witnessed the same event- the Great White Throne Judgment.Ý In this judgment, the wicked dead from all generations and ages are present, and the books are opened.Ý At the other two judgments, the books were not the issue.Ý The previous judgments detailed the intimate and extensive examination of our deeds and the approval of our faith.Ý Here in this judgment, the books are opened:Ý "A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened... And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt....And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.Ý And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.Ý And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.Ý And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.Ý This is the second death.Ý And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."Ý (Daniel 7:10, 12:1-2, Revelation 20:11-15)ÝÝ

The Books of Judgment
There has been great debate over what the books are and what is contained in them.ÝÝ According to the Bible the following books will be present:Ý The Book of Life (Revelation 20:15) describes a list of the name of every person that ever lived.Ý This listing includes all regardless of faith.Ý The Book of Man's Works (Revelation 20:12-13) describes deeds, intents and consequences of such.Ý The Book of the Law (Galatians 3:20) will be used since the Law (not Temple ordinances and sin sacrifices) is still holy, just and good. (Romans 7:12)Ý The Word of God.Ý (John 5:22-23)Ý Since Christ is the Righteous Judge,
so is His Word, the Bible.Ý

The Holy Bible has by far warned us in advance of our actions and decisions for so long.Ý It is thus fitting it is one of the books at this judgment.Ý Finally, the Lamb's Book of Life. (Revelation 21:27) This special book lists the names of all who confessed Christ into their lives and hearts by faith and continued in Christ until the end.Ý It is this book that would be most painful to endure at this judgment.ÝÝÝ It would be quite devastating to imagine someone who spent their entire life being religious, going to church and doing good deeds.Ý However, they never accepted Christ in their heart and never repented from their secret life of sin because they felt religion and church was enough. It never occurred to them that the weirdÝ Jesus People who warned them and preached to them were right- but it never got through because to them religion and church was enough.Ý It never occurred to them the Bible was the only truth, and in turn the Bible only got attention on Sunday mornings and gathered dust on the shelf throughout the week.ÝÝ It never occurred to them that Christ did not know them- even though they cried, "Lord, Lord."Ý (Matthew 7:21-23)Ý And simply because they did not confess Christ into their heart and life by His Grace and their faith they are subject to this judgment of condemnation.Ý The powerful yet gentle hands of Christ turn each page of the Lamb's Book of Life, searching for the name of that person, but unable to find it.ÝÝ Every individual at the Great White Throne Judgment will be cast into the lake of fire.Ý

The Judgments of God are so important for us to remember, for holy living and a firm witness cannot be accomplished without it.Ý The immediate return of Christ at the Rapture has a purifying effect:Ý "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not appear what we shall be:Ý but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.Ý And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."Ý (1John 3:2-3)Ý It is for this reason Paul the apostle preached day and night with tears (Acts 20:31) and defended the gospel from distortion and false doctrines. (1Timothy 6:3-5, 2Peter 2:1-3)Ý Let us continue to strive for the precious prize of eternal life in Christ Jesus and help many to avoid the worst worldwide tyranny of global dictatorship to come.Ý

Various Judgments of the Bible (http://jesuschristis.com/tribulation/soap/judgment.html)

The judgment of the righteous and the crowns
The judgment is for rewards for works; not about sins

1 Corinthians 3:
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"[a]; 20and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."[b] 21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

The Five Crowns (http://www.livingbiblestudies.org/study/JT2/index.html)

1. The Incorruptible Crown - given to those who master the old nature (1 Cor. 9:25-27).
2. The Crown of Rejoicing - given to soul winners (Prov. 11:30, Dan. 12:31, 1 Thess. 2:19-20).
3. The Crown of Life - given to those who successfully endure temptation (Jas. 1:2-3, Rev. 2:10).
4. The Crown of Righteousness - for those who especially love the doctrine of the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8).
5. The Crown of Glory - given to faithful preachers and teachers (Acts 20:26-28, 2 Tim. 4:1-2, 1 Pet. 5:2-4).

MY question on Purgatory is why would God go to great lengths to mention all these things in detail and then only vaguely mention verses that could imply purgatory??

WOW N0Help4u! You amaze me more and more. Those are absolutely amazing and informative posts!

Though I am confused by the one about The Incorruptible Crown, what is the old nature?

(and I still have to spread it around some :( sorry)

Thanks basically found the links that said what I wanted to say since I am not good at explaining a lot of things

The incorruptible crown is basically that you gave up your old ways (flesh) (Romans 6-8) like sexual sins, drugs, etc... and live for Christ.

Wow. That's awesome. No one has ever told me about that part of the bible. Or that part of the "end". Maybe I could discuss it with you further on another thread at a later date?

The Incorruptible Crown - “And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.” (1 Corinthians 9:25). Once again, Paul has in mind the athlete in the Roman arena. Before the contest, each participant practiced self-discipline, being temperate in all things. As is true of the world today, there were doubtless many pleasures and pastimes that the athletes might have entered into and enjoyed, but they denied themselves these things in order to do their best, and receive the crown of the victor. The incorruptible crown for the Christian is the victor's crown for those who keep under the body and bring it into subjection. It is a conquering of the old nature.

The Crown of Rejoicing. “For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? For ye are our glory and joy” (1 Thessalonians 2:19-20). This is the soul-winner's crown. The first thing that a Christian should pray for and seek to cultivate is the desire, ability, and wisdom to win lost souls to Jesus Christ. Paul was confident that when he would stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Thessalonian converts would guarantee a crown for all those who shared in bringing them to Christ. Every time an individual is converted, there is joy in Heaven; but at the day of the giving of rewards, the soul-winner will be exceedingly joyful, when those are presented to God whom he had won to Christ. What is our hope of reward as Christ's witnesses? The answer is in those who will be in Heaven because of our prayers, gifts, preaching, and personal work.

The Crown of Righteousness. “Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto them also that love His appearing” (2 Timothy 4:8). Here the character of the reward corresponds to the character of the Giver. Both are said to be righteous. The doctrine of our Lord's return is regarded very highly by God. In spite of the fact that Jesus said He would come again, there are many people who scoff at the thought of Christ's appearing. This and kindred truths have brought suffering and hardship, and in some cases death, to those who insisted on preaching and teaching them. But how wonderful to know that God has prepared a special reward for all who look for that blessed hope, who wait for His son from Heaven, and who love His appearing.

The Crown of Life. “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him” (James 1:12). “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life” (Revelation 2:10).

The Crown of Life is reserved for those who have given all their lives for the sake of the Gospel. Not all of our Lord's witnesses have been called to suffering and martyrdom. Not all would be willing to pay with their lives to take the message of salvation to the lost. How thoughtful and just our heavenly Father was when He prepared a martyr's crown for those who suffer persecution for Christ's sake! Though some of us will not receive the Crown of Life, we will rejoice with those who refused to count the cost and have died proclaiming the Gospel of Christ.

The Crown of Glory. “Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble” (1 Peter 5:2-5). There are many who have been called and ordained by God to preach and teach His Word. These are the under shepherds who care for the flock of God during the absence of the Chief Shepherd.

... IF there is a judgement day to be had ...
IF... That is precisely the point... The odds are very, very small there ever will be one... And Pascals Wager actually shows that the odds in favor of "judgment day" are much smaller than most Christians think they are...

Walakum Salamat , Free !

:)

·

I wouldn't put my faith in Pascal's wager ya'all can but NOT for me

I wouldn't put my faith in Pascal's wager ya'all can but NOT 4 me
Good decision ! It's a faulty and failing argument !

Walakum Salamat also 4u, Nohelp !

:rolleyes:

·

THAT is YOUR BELIEF

THAT is YOUR BELIEF
Incorrect : that is NOT my belief. Pascal's Wager is a faulty and failing argument !

If you want you can start a new topic on the validity of Pascal's Wager...

:rolleyes:

·

Clarification:
Well I couldn't care less about Pascal's wager. You like referring to it so your not believing it IS YOUR BELIEF to NOT believe it.

Incorrect : that is NOT my belief. Pascal's Wager is a faulty and failing argument !
Agreed... but I'm not quite sure what this has to do with the topic of this thread... :confused:

Agreed..... but I'm not quite sure what this has to do with the topic of this thread....:confused:
It referred to Nohelp4u's post #9 , where she brought up Pacal's Wager, and to FreeDream's topic post, in which the position was one based on that wager...

And all I did was comment on all that...

:rolleyes:

·

And all I did was comment on all that ...
Gotcha... thought I was missing something.

Since this topic really belongs on the Christianity Board, then I guess it is here because the questioner want opinions other than Christian opinions.

There is no judgement day by an invisible GodAlmighty, dream, because there is no GodAlmighty... he is a character in ancient Jewish folklore and myth. In fact, there is no reason to believe that there is life after death, a strange idea, if you ask me!

There is no judgement day by an invisible GodAlmighty, dream, because there is no GodAlmighty
I prefer to say that there is no supporting evidence for the existence of the Christian GodAlmighty. Otherwise we get into that endless discussion again of having to prove a negative...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

·

Lmao!!

IF ... That is precisely the point ... The odds are very, very small there ever will be one ... And Pascals Wager actually shows that the odds in favor of "judgment day" are much smaller than most Christians think they are ...

Walakum Salamat , Free !

:)

·

According to what researched data do you make this claim? ;)

Since this topic really belongs on the Christianity Board, then I guess it is here because the questioner want opinions other than Christian opinions.

There is no judgement day by an invisible GodAlmighty, dream, because there is no GodAlmighty.....he is a character in ancient Jewish folklore and myth. In fact, there is no reason to believe that there is life after death, a strange idea, if you ask me!

This is exactly what this is your SUBJECTIVE OPINION.. not based on fact

Free, if you want an excellent read on heaven/eternity/judgement look at reading "Driven by Eternity" by John Bevere

Originally Posted by FreeDream

... IF there is a judgement day to be had .
Response Credendovidis to that :

IF ... That is precisely the point ... The odds are very, very small there ever will be one ... And Pascals Wager actually shows that the odds in favor of "judgment day" are much smaller than most Christians think they are ...
Walakum Salamat , Free !

According to what researched data do you make this claim?
My response to sassyT :

What else than very low odds are there that "there is a judgement day to be had"??
Where is the objective supporting evidence for such a judgment day?
All you have is empty unsupported religious claims!!
I am not going to do your homework, dear ! Do that yourself ! The odds are very, very small that you ever will prove me wrong...

:D :D :D :D :D :D

·

And cred what if you are wrong and you end up spending an eternity (forever) in darkness, separation, desperation, etc

AND wouldn't you rather believe in it and be wrong than not believe in it and be wrong

:rolleyes:


What else than very low odds are there that "there is a judgement day to be had" ???
Where is the objective supporting evidence for such a judgment day?
All you have is empty unsupported religious claims !!!
I am not going to do your homework, dear ! Do that yourself ! The odds are very, very small that you ever will prove me wrong ...


·


I disagree, the odds that there is no Judgement day are very very small. Where is the objective supported evidence that judgement day will not happen?
All you have is wild empty claims that are not backed by any research data or OSE...
I am not going to do your homework eighter dear Cred. You can do that yourself. If you are going to claim that the likely hood of a future evident is "very very small" you better have some data to supports such claims.. So please prove me wrong if you can
Otherwise your claims are nothing but HOT AIR subjective opinions not facts.. . lol

AND wouldn't you rather believe in it and be wrong than not believe in it and be wrong


Lol... that's what smart people do... I don't know about cred. :confused:

.... the odds that there is no Judgement day are very very small. Where is the objective supported evidence that judgement day will NOT happen?
Sorry sassyT : you know about the differences on proving positive and negative statements.
You may claim there will be a judgment day. But without any objective supporting evidence for that positive claim I say that the odds of that ever happeneing are very very small indeed !

Success with your objective supporting evidence for judgment day ! I'll react on it as soon as I seen it posted !

:D :D :D :D :D

ý

and cred what if you are wrong and you end up spending an eternity (forever) in darkness, seperation, desperation, etcAND wouldn't you rather believe in it and be wrong than not believe in it and be wrong

Cred0 makes it quit clear he isn't into Paqual's wager so the answer is NO
I got that right don't I Cred0??

Cred0 makes it quit clear he isn't into Paqual's wager so the answer is NO
I got that right don't I Cred0???
Pascal's wager is based on assumptions that could backfire against those who insist that only their own "christian" version of "God" can be true.
If - a very big IF - there is a supranatural entity called God, why should it be the Christian version? Why not the Islamic god, or one of the Hinduist god(s), or an entire other one?

:rolleyes:

·

Like I said I ain't into that Pascal's wager stuff God knows your heart whether you are Christian, Islamic, Hinduist, atheist, or an entire other one

Like I said I ain't into that Pascal's wager stuff God knows your heart whether you are Christian, Islamic, Hinduist, atheist, or an entire other one
One of my points too, Nohelp4u! An "omniscient" entity that would not notice that people just fake belief and faith to get passed final judgment would not be omniscient, is it not?
And if that "omniscient" claim fails, what else fails? Supra-natural? Benevolent?
One more step and it is fails to be "creator" and "judge" in that final episode.

:D

·

Pascal's wager is based on assumptions that could backfire against those who insist that only their own "christian" version of "God" can be true.
If - a very big IF - there is a supranatural entity called God, why should it be the Christian version? Why not the Islamic god, or one of the Hinduist god(s), or an entire other one?

:rolleyes:

·


Do you discount the Bible as being true and accurrate?

If so, is that why you "laugh" at the thought or belief of God and Jesus talked about in the Bible.

Just want to know what your thoughts are so I know where you are coming from; if you don't want to I understand.

He discounts there even being a God---we were formed from one cell amoebas dontcha know!

Do you discount the Bible as being true and accurrate? The Bible is a book written by people with perhaps the best of intentions, but it is not the word of God - if such an entity actually exists.


If so, is that why you "laugh" at the thought or belief of God and Jesus talked about in the Bible.
I do not laugh at that at all. I laugh at the hypocrisy and religious arrogance by so many here on this board.


Just want to know what your thoughts are so I know where you are coming from; if you don't want to I understand.
Just ask and I will answer you. I have no need for hiding away my views.

:)

=====
·


He discounts there even being a God---
Wrong as usual... I QUESTION the religious claim as to God's existence. Based on the lacking supporting evidence the conclusion would be valid that "God" does not seem to exist. And I note that so far I have never seen any objective supported evidence towards that "God's" existence.


---we were formed from one cell amoebas dontcha know!?
No, we are not formed from "one cell amoebas". All lifeforms on earth - including your "one cell amoebas" - share the same section of DNA that was inherited from one of the "first cells" . So all life on earth descends from that "first cell".

And please note, Nohelp : I can assure you that I can answer questions directed at me myself, without your "assistance"...

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :o

·

No, we are not formed from "one cell amoebas". All lifeforms on earth - including your "one cell amoebas" - share the same section of DNA that was inherited from one of the "first cells" . So all life on earth descends from that "first cell".

And please note, Nohelp : I can assure you that I can answer questions directed at me myself, without your "assistance" ...


But if I hadn't said it the way I understood you to say it before then you would not have corrected the way I understood it. Since I answered what I understood you to say you clarified it for me... I think :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The Bible is a book written by people with perhaps the best of intentions, but it is not the word of God - if such an entity actually exists.


I do not laugh at that at all. I laugh at the hypocrisy and religious arrogance by so many here on this board.


Just ask and I will answer you. I have no need for hiding away my views.

:)

=====
·


Wrong as usual .... I QUESTION the religious claim as to God's existence. Based on the lacking supporting evidence the conclusion would be valid that "God" does not seem to exist. And I note that so far I have never seen any objective supported evidence towards that "God's" existence.


No, we are not formed from "one cell amoebas". All lifeforms on earth - including your "one cell amoebas" - share the same section of DNA that was inherited from one of the "first cells" . So all life on earth descends from that "first cell".

And please note, Nohelp : I can assure you that I can answer questions directed at me myself, without your "assistance" ...

:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :o

·

I cannot as a human prove to you that God exists; why don't you ask God himself to prove that He exists and be open to the response you receive.

I will make just one statement and be done...

Every human will believe or not believe in what they wish. That, my friends, is called Free Will. An admirable trait we are given at conception. No one can convince someone that does not believe to believe if they do not have the Will to want to believe.

But I can offer you this, if you believe in a God then when the time comes that we are all with Him, we will see if the ones that didn't believe come to join us. If not, it is not our problem, it is God's. Forcing a belief or beliefs on someone is not the way to go.

I leave with this... and I apologize Cred if you take this the wrong way...

By acknowledging an unbelief in one, you are still acknowledging the thought of one. It is simply up to you to decide if you choose to BELIEVE in one. And up to believers to love, accept and honor that decision.

.....I think.....
No problem Linda. BTW : I like your birdie !

:)


================================================== ========



I cannot as a human prove to you that God existsOf course you can't. Nobody can prove supra-natural deities to exist !


... why don't you ask God himself to prove that He exists Why would I? Why would anyone ask someone who is incommunicado to prove that "he" exist?


... and be open to the response you receive.So I should be open to an answer by someone who is incommunicado ?

:)


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I leave with this... and I apologize Cred if you take this the wrong way...No need at all to apologize for that, Champ!! You may believe from me whatever you like. And of course so may I!!


It is simply up to you to decide if you choose to BELIEVE in one.Wrong : it is simply NOT up to anyone to decide if he/she chooses to BELIEVE in something or not. One does not DECIDE to believe something or not. Although outside influences can change someone's perception and ideas, belief is not something that you easily can influence.

Beliefs of any type require lot's of time to grow or change. Political beliefs are a good example of that : over a life time most people change from social/liberal to liberal/conservative.

So I disagree with your suggestion that "it is simply up to you to decide if/what you choose to believe" !

:)

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Why would I? Why would anyone ask someone who is incommunicado to prove that "he" exist?




Why wouldn't you? Where does your assumption that He is incommunicado come from?

God wants to know you and have a relationship with you; He will show up if you ask.

No problem Linda. BTW : I like your birdie !

:)


Y thank you! :D
He is Yakky Doodle from Hanna Barberra cartoons late 50's early 60's
He was in Tom and Jerry, Snagglepuss and other cartoons of theirs. :)

YouTube - Subliminal Snagglepuss (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhXCF5yaWJQ&feature=related)

No need at all to apologize for that, Champ !!! You may believe from me whatever you like. And of course so may I !!!

Wrong : it is simply NOT up to anyone to decide if he/she chooses to BELIEVE in something or not. One does not DECIDE to believe something or not. Although outside influences can change someone's perception and ideas, belief is not something that you easily can influence.

Beliefs of any type require lot's of time to grow or change. Political beliefs are a good example of that : over a life time most people change from social/liberal to liberal/conservative.

So I disagree with your suggestion that "it is simply up to you to decide if/what you choose to believe" !

:)

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By saying it is up to you to decide I meant exactly what you said at first, that people are influenced by advertisements, other people, "miracles", propaganda, articles, freak incidents and just plain old every day life happenings. That is what I meant by up to you to decide. You choose whether or not you want to believe in all of those things or none of those things or to NOT believe at all. Do you see what I mean or am I being confusing? :confused:

You know that I support your choice to not believe in a "god". But I just mean that you had that right from the birth canal to choose and you obtain that right throughout your life to continue to choose. By keeping the same ideas, thoughts and/or beliefs or to change them whenever you want. You see?

By saying it is up to you to decide I meant exactly what you said at first, that people are influenced by advertisements, other people, "miracles", propaganda, articles, freak incidents and just plain old every day life happenings. That is what I meant by up to you to decide. You choose whether or not you want to believe in all of those things or none of those things or to NOT believe at all. Do you see what I mean or am I being confusing?
My apologies if I misunderstood you. I know that people are daily bombarded with suggestions and all kinds of different forms of advertising.
But that is not what I meant. At least not in response to this specific topic that refers to a specific religious belief. I do not think that such a belief can be "advertised" into you. May be at an inter-religious level - lets say from one to another sub-Christian preference, but not from non-believer into theist.

Most non-believers have fought their freedom from religion, and are still fighting that, against the flood of religious interfering and intolerance all around us. So most non-believers are sub-conscious primed against religious interference. And next to that : belief in a supra-natural deity demands submission to some entity, for which no OSE exists. And that is surely one step too high for a non-believer. That requires more than just advertising : it requires a different world view, a different state of mind.


You know that I support your choice to not believe in a "god". But I just mean that you had that right from the birth canal to choose and you obtain that right throughout your life to continue to choose. By keeping the same ideas, thoughts and/or beliefs or to change them whenever you want. You see?
I did not CHOOSE not to believe. Growing up in a tolerant Christian family my non-belief started around the age of 10 from deep within my subconscious mind - not my reasoning - and soon the thought that religion had no validity appeared, and the reality (the lacking OSE) confirmed that new view. At the age of 12 I realized that most of my family had been slaughtered because of their religious views. That religion was the cause of many human tragedies. That religious organizations were co-responsible for human massacres, and/or had condoned that intolerance for many hundreds of years, yes even had been at the basis of all that violence. From the crusades to inquisition to witch persecution to direct involvement in - and support of - genocide.

As I stated : my mind concluded from the lacking OSE that religion had no validity. That there can't be an entity that supports violence and murdering (as per OT). That a supra-natural benevolent and omniscient deity has no need for worship and submission. That a loving "father" welcomes ALL "his" children, no matter how they behaved, and that a "father" who has a "hell" for those who question "his" existence is not a loving "father" but the bloodthirsty god from the OT. The end conclusion was that any religious ideology has to be wrong, and that no supra-natural entities exist.

Many non-theists have similar experiences. Can you understand now why so many non-believers can not be converted into theists - even if they wanted that , and no matter what religious pressure or advertising is coming their way? What choice do they really have? None as far as I am concerned.

Peace Champ, peace !

:)

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My apologies if I misunderstood you. I know that people are daily bombarded with suggestions and all kinds of different forms of advertising.
But that is not what I meant. At least not in response to this specific topic that refers to a specific religious belief. I do not think that such a belief can be "advertised" into you. May be at an inter-religious level - lets say from one to another sub-Christian preference, but not from non-believer into theist.

Most non-believers have fought their freedom from religion, and are still fighting that, against the flood of religious interfering and intolerance all around us. So most non-believers are sub-conscious primed against religious interference. And next to that : belief in a supra-natural deity demands submission to some entity, for which no OSE exists. And that is surely one step too high for a non-believer. That requires more than just advertising : it requires a different world view, a different state of mind.


I did not CHOOSE not to believe. Growing up in a tolerant Christian family my non-belief started around the age of 10 from deep within my subconscious mind - not my reasoning - and soon the thought that religion had no validity appeared, and the reality (the lacking OSE) confirmed that new view. At the age of 12 I realized that most of my family had been slaughtered because of their religious views. That religion was the cause of many human tragedies. That religious organizations were co-responsible for human massacres, and/or had condoned that intolerance for many hundreds of years, yes even had been at the basis of all that violence. From the crusades to inquisition to witch persecution to direct involvement in - and support of - genocide.

As I stated : my mind concluded from the lacking OSE that religion had no validity. That there can't be an entity that supports violence and murdering (as per OT). That a supra-natural benevolent and omniscient deity has no need for worship and submission. That a loving "father" welcomes ALL "his" children, no matter how they behaved, and that a "father" who has a "hell" for those who question "his" existence is not a loving "father" but the bloodthirsty god from the OT. The end conclusion was that any religious ideology has to be wrong, and that no supra-natural entities exist.

Many non-theists have similar experiences. Can you understand now why so many non-believers can not be converted into theists - even if they wanted that , and no matter what religious pressure or advertising is coming their way? What choice do they really have? None as far as I am concerned.

Peace Champ, peace !

:)

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Wow. I never thought about all of that.
The part I highlighted makes perfect sense. I totally agree with you on that way of thinking. I guess when you relate it to having your own children and what you would do for them and to them it seems a little odd some of the things that happen. And I have stated before that I totally believe that a major part of religion was established as a form of control and a way to give "logical" reasons for war as you mentioned. If it is in the name of "god" everyone will understand right? :rolleyes:

I am sorry for your losses and I understande completely where you are coming from and the difference between subconcious and reasoning. I apologize for mincing words. And I take back some of what I said being that I didn't fully understand what I was saying myself.

But as for me, I stated once before... I believe in a god for my own personal reasons. If I didn't believe that I would have to ultimately pay for my consequences here on earth when the end comes, I would prob do a lot of horrible things to a lot of people that deserve it. So in my mind, believing that being good on earth will get me to a heaven where I can see my husband and kids for eternity makes me want to continue to be good. (the control thing I mentioned) and even if I am wrong, I feel like I am making the "right" decision. And I am a little curious as to how we all got here if there isn't a god...

The part I highlighted makes perfect sense.
I'm glad you feel that way. You seem to be one of the few here who understands the underlying reasons for my unbelief.


I am sorry for your losses and I understand completely where you are coming from and the difference between subconscious and reasoning.
It was important to me early in life, when the mental scar was fresh. By now the negative feelings against Germans have faded away. Those living now had little to do with what happened in the past. Time healed almost all wounds.
The difference between subconscious thinking and reasoning are important for understanding why religious belief is something one can not just switch on or off.


I apologize for mincing words. And I take back some of what I said being that I didn't fully understand what I was saying myself.
Thanks, but really no need for that. I understand how difficult it has to be for Christians and other theists to understand why I think the way I do. What I do not understand is the deliberate intolerance by so many here, as if people think that their intolerance will change my views.


But as for me, I stated once before... I believe in a god for my own personal reasons.No problems with that at all. You are free to believe whatever you prefer to believe!


And i am a little curious as to how we all got here if there isn't a god...Well, for that are the discussions on abiogenesis and evolution as alternatives to religious claims.

Salam champ, peace !

:)

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Would it not be a possibility that those who do not walk with Christ be those that are born again to walk the earth, again, until the judgment day; that those who walk with Christ be those which might ascend to heaven more swiftly when they die, to walk with him until the judgment day?
I do not really understand your position here. What do you think the essence of Christianity really is? The "saving" of so many as possible "souls", or to look after the interests of one group of followers only ? Can you please explain your position ?


What might be the consequences of us all who walk on the earth, if perhaps a stray few are born and find it inside themselves to walk with christ, bringing with them several people in small handfuls, but the majority who walk on the earth, presently, are perhaps re-incarnations of those individuals who never held belief in the singular and secular faiths of christianity?
Are you perhaps afraid that "heaven" will be too small ? And re-incarnations as part of Christianity : how is that ?

Salam !

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