If you addressed the OP, I must have missed it. Where do you stand on Sola Scriptura?
My posts earlier on this thread should clear it up for you:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-6.html#post1193199

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-7.html#post1193688

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-7.html#post1193731

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-7.html#post1193814

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-7.html#post1193832

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-7.html#post1193921

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-8.html#post1194059

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-8.html#post1194078

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-8.html#post1194098

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-8.html#post1194135

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-8.html#post1194184

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-8.html#post1194219

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-9.html#post1194810

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-9.html#post1195432

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-9.html#post1197091

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-9.html#post1197118

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-9.html#post1197462

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-10.html#post1198415

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-10.html#post1198663

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-10.html#post1198789

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-11.html#post1199052

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-11.html#post1199073

...

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-11.html#post1200198

Joe,

This is from Cardinal Newman's treatise on the development of doctrine. The new religion of which he speaks is Christianity. It is not one developed by Constantine but one which Constantine believes and with which he supplants the old Roman religion. In other words, he gets rid of Caesar worship and replaces it with the true religion of faith in Christ. Which is already in that day and age known as the Catholic Church.

Here's the entire document:

Newman Reader - Development of Christian Doctrine - Chapter 8 (http://www.newmanreader.org/works/development/chapter8.html)

That site was working when I used it. But it didn't work just now. Maybe its just temporary.

I happened to notice an article in This Rock when I was googling it though:
USING NEWMAN'S ARGUMENT TODAY (This Rock: February 1996) (http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9602fea3.asp)

I haven't read it yet, but it is probably worthwhile. They haven't disappointed me yet.

Sincerely,

De Maria


Boy, talk about being dense, I walked all over this the other night – but in my defense, I didn't have time to do anything but scan through it. I have difficulty with Newman because I can't ever figure out if I'm reading a pre or post conversion piece – at least until I'm half way thought it. Anglican and Catholic thought as so close on so many things it's had to tell sometimes. Unless prompted in advance, you tend to skim over the differences unless you know what to look for.

I'll read it tonight.

Thanks,

JoeT

That's true. Nor does the Church teach that we must follow Churchmen blindly. However, Scripture does say that the Church is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3:15) and that we must hear the Church or be treated as heathen (Matt 18:17).

Right - the problem is that you think that only your denomination is the church. That is, at very least, arrogant, but certainly unscriptural.


No, Peter means "rock".

Biblical Greek language experts disagree with you. I'll listen to the experts over your pprivate interpretation/translation.


Well its either your Church which is the Body of Christ or ours.

The body of believers is not a denomination.



The Traditions and the Scriptures (2 Thess 2:14) Scripture says not to go beyond what is written

The Mass (Acts 2:46) Not ion scripture.

The belief that the Church is infallible (1 Tim 3:15) Not a denomination

The belief that we should obey the Church (Matt 18:17) Not your denomination

The belief in one Shepherd placed here by Jesus in His name (Matt 16:18) Your private interpretation not in agreement with the context of scripture.

The belief in faith and works (James 2:20) Your private interpretation which is not aligned with Biblical Greek.

So how can a true church be so off course on so many point?


Not me. That teaching is from the Church Fathers:

You follow traditions of men.


Therefore, the flood is the sign which points to Baptism, the real thing.

Sigh! You can lead a horse to water...




TJ, Are you still beating your wife?

Now you are into abusive and libellous mis-representation? Got a good lawyer?


First of all, Constantine did not start the Catholic Church. Even your Cartdinal John Henry Newman agrees, as werll as many historians, catholic and otherwise.


But I've explained it to you thoroughly many times.

Once again, I accept what scripture says in context, not your private interpretation.

Jesus is πέτρα {Petra} The Rock and Peter {Petros} means a littler rock or a stone.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art pet'ros (a stone), and upon this petra (πέτρα, ROCK, meaning upon Jesus Christ Himself) I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus is πέτρα {Petra} The Rock and Peter {Petros} means a littler rock or a stone.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art pet'ros (a stone), and upon this petra (πέτρα, ROCK, meaning upon Jesus Christ Himself) I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Yep. Throughout scripture, the Rock is Jesus.

Jesus is πέτρα {Petra} The Rock and Peter {Petros} means a littler rock or a stone.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art pet'ros (a stone), and upon this petra (πέτρα, ROCK, meaning upon Jesus Christ Himself) I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Yes, He built the Mystical body of Christ which has become known as the Roman Catholic Church (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/purgatory-just-how-long-238834-42.html#post1205279)on a stone. Makes His miracles (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/purgatory-just-how-long-238834-43.html#post1206210) even more amazing doesn’t it?

Yes, He built the Mystical body of Christ which has become known as the Roman Catholic Church (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/purgatory-just-how-long-238834-42.html#post1205279)on a stone. Makes His miracles (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/purgatory-just-how-long-238834-43.html#post1206210) even more amazing doesn’t it?

NO! HOW??

the Mystical body of Christ
The Body of Christ is all believers... so many passages... how about 1 Cor. 12 to start...

Jesus is πέτρα {Petra} The Rock and Peter {Petros} means a littler rock or a stone.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art pet'ros (a stone), and upon this petra (πέτρα, ROCK, meaning upon Jesus Christ Himself) I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

No. Petros is the masculine form of the noun. Petra the feminine. In order to understand the verse you must understand the patriarchal Jewish culture. If Jesus were to call Simon, Petra, it would be tantamount to accusing him of being homosexual. At the very least, it would be belittling and insulting.

An equivalent in English would be to call a man Johnette instead of John. In fact, Petra is the feminine name for Peter even in English:

Petra - Origin and Meaning of the name Petra at BabyNames.com (http://www.babynames.com/name/PETRA)

Peter - Origin and Meaning of the name Peter at BabyNames.com (http://www.babynames.com/name/PETER)

Finally, Bible scholars agree that Jesus spoke in Aramaic. Therefore He didn't say,
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

That is the Apostolic translation of Jesus' Aramaic words into Greek. Jesus actually said, And I say to thee: That thou art Cephas; and upon this cephas I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

We can confirm this from Scripture where Jesus first used the name Cephas in reference to Simon:

John 1 42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter.

Sincerely,

De Maria

The Spiritual Rock in the wilderness (http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/IsJesusGod/Spiritualrock.htm)

The KJV used the Petra form for Jesus.

Yep. Throughout scripture, the Rock is Jesus.

EXACTLY!!

That is precisely why Jesus named Simon, Rock. Because Simon is Jesus' representative.

This is not new. God did it before. When he sent Moses to Pharoa, God said:

Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

In the same way, Jesus has appointed Simon His representative and has given Him a name which represents the role He will play:

John 21 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

Simon is to be the Vicar of Christ. Christ's representative on earth. Jesus could not have been clearer of His intent than giving Simon a name which up to that point had only been used to designate God:

2 Kings 22 2 And he said: The Lord is my rock, and my strength, and my saviour.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Yes, He built the Mystical body of Christ which has become known as the Roman Catholic Church (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/purgatory-just-how-long-238834-42.html#post1205279)on a stone. Makes His miracles (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/purgatory-just-how-long-238834-43.html#post1206210) even more amazing doesn’t it?
NO!! HOW???



Follow the links (in red) - I've already explained.

EXACTLY!!!!

That is precisely why Jesus named Simon, Rock. Because Simon is Jesus' representative.

Only if one doesn't translate correctly and doesn't understand the verbal communication that was going on at the time.

The Spiritual Rock in the wilderness (http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/IsJesusGod/Spiritualrock.htm)

The KJV used the Petra form for Jesus.

But not as a name.

Jesus renamed Simon. The KJV also uses the Petra form for Peter, in Matt 16:18.

Watch:

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

In other words, the name of that petra is Petros. The name of that Rock is Peter.

See, you guys pretend that Jesus changed boats in the middle of the stream.

Lets rewind to the beginning of that scene:

13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?

First Jesus is speaking to all the disciples and asks a question. They each take turns answering but...


Matt 16 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.

Then, Simon confesses that Jesus is the Son of God.

17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

Here Jesus is talking to Simon and explaining that Simon is blessed because the Father has revealed this to him.

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus continues praising him. Now, why would Jesus say, "thou are Peter" and then change venue and point to himself and say, "AND on this rock, myself, I will build my Church and then turn around and focus back to Peter and continue...

19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

And give Peter the keys.

And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

And the authority to bind on earth and in heaven?

Why the discontinuity which you describe? It makes no sense.

Especially since God has previously assigned men to represent Him to other men.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I understand Jesus renamed Peter and it means he was a representative or 'little rock'
Sort of like Jesus tells us we are a part of the body.

My posts earlier on this thread should clear it up for you:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-6.html#post1193199

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-7.html#post1193688

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-7.html#post1193731

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-7.html#post1193814

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-7.html#post1193832

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-7.html#post1193921

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-8.html#post1194059

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-8.html#post1194078

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-8.html#post1194098

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-8.html#post1194135

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-8.html#post1194184

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-8.html#post1194219

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-9.html#post1194810

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-9.html#post1195432

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-9.html#post1197091

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-9.html#post1197118

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-9.html#post1197462

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-10.html#post1198415

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-10.html#post1198663

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-10.html#post1198789

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-11.html#post1199052

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-11.html#post1199073

.....

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/sola-scriptura-contradiction-242334-11.html#post1200198


I tried the first two, there's nothing from you in those pages. I'm not going to go through the whole list in order to see where you stand when you can simply respond directly. After all, it is you who addressed me. Not I who sought out your input.

So, if you're a believer and you want to discuss this issue with me, where do you stand on this topic?

Sincerely,

De Maria

I understand Jesus renamed Peter and it means he was a representative or 'little rock'
sort of like Jesus tells us we are a part of the body.

Well, I guess that is progress. Thanks for the input.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Only if one doesn't translate correctly and doesn't understand the verbal communication that was going on at the time.

Please provide the correct translation and verbal communication as you see it that we may examine vis a vis what we've provided.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Jesus is πέτρα {Petra} The Rock and Peter {Petros} means a littler rock or a stone.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art pet'ros (a stone), and upon this petra (πέτρα, ROCK, meaning upon Jesus Christ Himself) I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Yes, He built the Mystical body of Christ which has become known as the Roman Catholic Church (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/purgatory-just-how-long-238834-42.html#post1205279)on a stone. Makes His miracles (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/purgatory-just-how-long-238834-43.html#post1206210) even more amazing doesn’t it?

I understand Jesus renamed Peter and it means he was a representative or 'little rock'
sort of like Jesus tells us we are a part of the body.

Hello, Hello, EARTH to N0help4u. Follow Red links, Hello, Hello, EARTH to N0help4u. Follow Red links,

I thought they were just color high lighted bold I didn't know they WERE links. I saw you had
Posted they were links later but I am doing too many things at once right now so I will read through them when I can concentrate better.

EXACTLY!!

That is precisely why Jesus named Simon, Rock. Because Simon is Jesus' representative.


You can believe as you want, but Peter was not named the Rock. That would have been edging on blasphemous.


This is not new. God did it before. When he sent Moses to Pharoa, God said:

Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

You need a better Bible translation.

Ex 7:1-2
7:1 So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
NKJV


Simon is to be the Vicar of Christ. Christ's representative on earth.

Jesus never left my church.