I will try to summarize the situation and would love input, please!

We have been married 11.5 years, together about 13. We have two kids.

We get along fine. We have our differences, but without bitterness or blow out arguments.

She has a hard time telling me things that are on her mind if she thinks I might disagree because she doesn't like conflict. If there is disagreement or other than near total agreement she perceives conflict.

She says she senses a bad, negative, moody vibe from me about things that she thinks I'll be unhappy about, like say doing something I don't really feel like doing, even when I'm in a totally OK mood. I actually am rarely grumpy except in the morning before I have caffeine, and at that, am not negative and grumpy. I try to just quietly take care of things as I sip on some coffee and then am fine. I am otherwise positive, not negative, and rarely grumpy, and do not get very mad, and when I get mad I don't hold a grudge or stay mad, at all, ever.

She and I get along well. We like spending time together. With kids it's hard to have that time, but, we do make some time a couple of times a month to go out on our own, have the kids stay over at a friend's house, etc. We talk, smile, laugh, joke.

I let her know on a daily basis how beautiful she is, and periodically make sure to tell her I think she is a great mom to our kids, and that she's smart, a nice person, that she's great. I say it so much I do think sometimes I shouldn't so often or it will be worn out! She knows how I feel about her and has told me so.

A few years ago, when her schedule revolved only around the kids when they were much younger, both around 3 and 5 years old, she got into a rut. She was unhappy. She wasn't sure what it was, and I thought the worst. She said it wasn't necessarily even me, and didn't know for sure, but maybe it was, some. She saw a councilor for a while, weekly I think, for a handful of months. She had no activities of her own, not even say reading a book on her own, working out at the gym, going out with a girlfriend on her own without the kids around. She made a positive step or two to change that, and including the counseling she said she felt much better.

We have moved to a very pleasant area of the country, of the world for that matter, to Oregon, from having lived in the DC area in a higher stress environment. She wanted to move here. I liked it here, too, and agreed. We both like it here, have made friends, go out as couples, as families, and go to get togethers sometimes, etc.

My job now is much less stressful than it was. It isn't without concerns, but I am well at ease with myself and we both are living a much healthier and happier lifestyle here. We exercise, don't do drugs, don't abuse booze, make time to go out alone, and so on. We both are involved or attend activities the kids are in, too. She sees friends with me, and girlfriends on her own without the kids. I sometimes will do something with the kids for a few hours, too, so she has some alone time no matter what it is she is doing with it (relaxing, shopping, taking a nap, whatever it is).

Since she talked with me a few years ago about being unhappy and not being sure about what it was, I have been scared that it was in fact about being with me and she just didn't dare say so. She is one of the best people I've ever met in my whole life. I do everything I can to make things good for her and us. She is highly attractive to me. Our sex life isn't exciting now, usually anyway! but it does exist, a couple of times a week typically. Sometimes it is, especially if it's not at the end of the day and we're tired, or if the kids are away, it is actually pretty good. It's not like being mid 20s and having all day to lounge and pretend you are rabbits, but... I asked her every now and then over the past two years, and more over the past year, whether she was doing OK, whether she's happy, and she said yes. She says she loves me. She is attracted to me. She knows I'm nice to her, not mean to her, she cares for me.

Saturday she said she isn't getting out of our relationship what she thinks she should. She said sometimes it's better, and sometimes worse, but when it's worse she feels empty inside somehow. She said she isn't in love with me anymore, but, that she loves me, and again, sometimes it's better, and sometimes it's worse.

She wants a divorce.

I feel like I just got hit by a tornado.

What would you recommend? I very likely will show her these answers and discuss them, so please be respectful of her and me in your answers. I appreciate your taking the time to give input.

Confused and sleepless just South of Seattle

Saturday she said she isn't getting out of our relationship what she thinks she should. She said sometimes it's better, and sometimes worse, but when it's worse she feels empty inside somehow. She said she isn't in love with me anymore, but, that she loves me, and again, sometimes it's better, and sometimes it's worse.

She wants a divorce.

I feel like I just got hit by a tornado.

What would you recommend? I very likely will show her these answers and discuss them, so please be respectful of her and me in your answers. I appreciate your taking the time to give input.

Confused and sleepless just South of Seattle



I seldom post on this board (unless the legal board is "slow"). I'm a widow and posts like this - and divorce certainly is a fact of life - are upsetting to me. I was also divorced some years ago.

Very wise minds, people who post here regularly, will come along, I'm sure. As I said - I'm an amateur at this stuff.

Have you tried or are you willing to try couples counselling? I know she has gone to a counsellor but have you? Have you tried it together?

If she is positive that this is what she wants, that the marriage is making her unhappy, well, then I think you have to bite the bullet. I don't know why or how people fall in love or, for that matter, why/how they fall out of love. I just don't know.

I do know I've broken up dating relationships with "it's not you, it's me, I love you but I'm not in love with you" because for whatever reason I thought something, someone, someplace else would make me happier and the relationship was no longer fulfilling to me.

I know you feel she's the best person who has ever come into your life but if she doesn't feel that same way any longer, then it's pretty much a charade.

I wish I had something wise and wonderful to say to both of you - this can be no easier on her than it is on you. It's hard to hurt someone you care about but at leat she's come straight out and told you.

Now I think the two of you have to decide together how to move forward to whatever your future is, together or apart.

I am probably dead wrong about the two of you. But, if it was me married to a nice guy like you, if it was me, the only thing that could make me want to leave and look elsewhere would be a lack of orgasms.

Judy Kay Tee and Simone,

Thanks for your input so far. Judy, I'd say what you've said is true. It can just happen, I guess. Our issue lies in communication and a perception on her part of what my mood or view of things is. It also lies in her difficulty in saying what is on her mind. Those are facts as she and I would both say them if we were with you now. I did just suggest counseling, that we find a retreat location with counseling for a few days and get away, and if it matches with the recommendations for how to proceed, that we implement what we learn. We talked today for a couple of hours. It was painful, but very productive. I made suggestions for her learning about my moods (ways to ask without having to discuss, even non-verbally asking to see whether she's right or wrong and my giving feedback without having to discuss or debate at that time at least, even just as hidden words in discussion that others around us wouldn't pick up on.) I said it seems we should go away to a retreat, then maybe even spend some time apart, a couple of weeks (accommodations aren't a problem), so we can get away from interacting with each other during the noise of the day to day. We should go away every weekend on a mini-vacation, hold hands, talk, go out, do things, out of town, for a month or two. Let's date again. The reasons we were attracted to begin with aren't gone. She doesn't disagree. We'll see, but she might go for trying. But no, counseling wasn't suggested. We didn't even discuss anything. She's painfully introverted and internalizes both things that are there and things she thinks are there, and for that matter things she think would be there if she were to say anything, and that becomes her reality of communication. Her parents agree. They are also shocked by all of this and know that's the root of it and that it can be addressed probably relatively easily if she were to agree to try.

What kind of listener are you?

That is a great question. I do listen. I hear. We both have gone through intensive communication training both by profession and by way of her dad who is an expert in the area. Their take on things is that they understand what's going on, it drives them crazy, and they can't understand how completely quiet a person can be about certain things until it becomes negative in their minds where negativity doesn't exist.

In short, I do listen. There in large part is nothing to hear because she assumes if she says something I might disagree. Disagreement is to her confrontation. I am like a guy playing charades with 1/4 of the clues who has no one telling him warmer or hotter but just being told now that I lost the game with no idea why.

I undrstand how you would feel... in fact I really wish you two would get back together.. honest!. obviously, she shd to be a nice person too.. thts why u don't intend on leaving her.. and as for u.. ppl could make mistakes in life.. thats absolutely human... after all this mishap.. it would be tough living together... but uv tried your best... wat else could you do?. tell her that you are srry for anything that had made her unhappy and tell her that it would be much easier for you if she shared her feelings.ie." what she wants"... u have two adorable kids... for their sake... just for one more chance... she should be absolutely in a confused state too... help her recover when she gives you another chance... I shall pray to the Almighty that everything would bcom perfectly all right between you and your wife... do update me and if your wife is reading this... "i dont know ur trouble sitting in front of this screen...but i really wish you give him a second chance" nobody is perfect
All the best

What kind of listener are you??



You beat me to it. I have heard so many friends say, "I tell him but he doesn't hear me."

From experience, when there is no input, it leads to assumptions and filling in the blanks, and 11 years of that, geez how did you make it that long? Often though I find introverted people can communicate in other ways so please indulge my questions.

What is her education background?
Are there siblings
You just moved are there friends?
Does she work?
Does she have hobbies?
What does she do when not being mom?
Why did you move?
Whose idea was it?

Often we forget how isolated we can be, with no social outlets, and that's the direction I'm going in. No matter how much loving, caring time you spend, it may not be enough, for her to be fulfilled as a person. That's why the questions.

From what I have seen with people and relationships it sounds like she is feeling somewhere between dissatisfied to miserable. When people feel like that they often project THEIR feelings onto assuming it being vibes from the other when actually it is THEIR feelings they are not owning up to.
She feels like she fell out of love because she IS in a rut.
She needs some spark and spice added to her life.
Many couples are content with getting in a rut when they are older but some people hate it. She does need to come to realize that life and love is not a feeling level to be maintained but something you need to work at AND a commitment rather than an emotion. And she should not rely on you for her happiness. She needs a life outside the home
I think
Ask her to give you one more chance and make things different-
Either spend money on romancing, dating, etc...
Or spend money on a marriage counselor.


The grass isn't any greener
She could meet somebody and have a whirlwind romance only to find when settled he is just as 'boring' to her.

I have one thing to say to the both of you, and it is something I came across while researching marriage for my PSYC class. The quote goes something like this: "You are going to have good times and bad times whether or not you are with someone. You have to decide if you are having bad times BECAUSE of the other person before you should consider leaving."

It's not like once you two are single things will miraculously get better, like what happens when people get out of abusive relationships. In those situations, the other person was directly causing the problems. It seems to me that she needs to find herself, rather than lose you. She was in love with you once, right? It's not so far fetched to get there again, if you both work on it. You two obviously care deeply for each other, and I didn't read anything about cheating or abuse, so what you have here is an honest to God healthy relationship (minus the communication part, but that can be fixed at a personal level, not relationship level). It's the people in the relationship that are in question here, not the relationship itself. Work on fixing yourselves, for yourselves, and for each other. I wish you both the best of luck.

Smokedetector and N0help4u,

Thanks to you two, also, for taking the time to comment. Smoke, that sums it up very well. We talked yesterday. It was tough for her, but she made that effort in this difficult time. We're going to, maybe, if she wants to, go away for a few days to a week to a retreat type setting with help. I can help a lot in this, too, helping her to feel comfortable communication, even if it's non-verbal. Doing that, then spending some alone, recooperative time, I would think, would do wonders for us. She's considering it, which is normal for the way she communicates (very introverted).

Thanks again for the very thoughtful response.

Talaniman,

Earlier on, say 4 to 5 years into our marriage, it became apparent that she didn't have anything for herself. She was staying at home with the kids, and that was important to us, but still, she had no outlet, no real friends where we were. We moved close to her dad and step mom. She knew a few people there, too, whom she saw sometimes. She still had no real time she took for herself. She had no hobbies. I encouraged her to try something, do something she wants, maybe with me, maybe on her own given she does like some down time away from people which is also typical of introverted communicators.

Now, where we are, we do go out sometimes as a family with another family or two, and as a couple with them, too. She sees a girlfriend (one of a few) here and there to get out a little. She goes to the gym which she likes rather than say setting up a treadmill at home or something. She is remarkably a lot more active now, relatively, for herself, which I find to be great.

To your questions:

What is her education background?
Master's in Speech Language Pathology (nearly perfect grades)

Are there siblings (She has a step brother she didn't grow up with, otherwise she's an only child)
You just moved are there friends? (We moved two years ago. We know a handful of couples I'd say we like well enough and see sometimes to say casually at least that they are friends. My definition of friend, a true friend, is pretty much lifelong or with that potential... We are friendly, though, and enjoy some peoples' company for sure, yes. And her best friend from gradeschool lives just down the street, too. Her dad and step mom just moved into town about 2 months ago.)
Does she work? (No, and hasn't for years, but is now in school to be an esthetician and enjoys that. She wants to work after graduation in that field and after she has confidence in her skills open her own studio.)
Does she have hobbies? (Scrapbooking rarely. Going to the gym a few times a week. Nothing else at all and I don't recall her ever saying she was ever really into x, y, or z, bowling, playing Rummy, going hiking, anything.)
What does she do when not being mom? (Now she studies, goes to the gym, and sometimes sees a friend for lunch or something. Prior to going back to school she spent a little more time with me, too. We'd make time to get out for a couple of hours without the kids maybe a couple of times a month.)
Why did you move? (I started my own business and was geographically flexible. We both wanted to be somewhere we thought we'd like rather than just think is OK, and wanted to be somewhere scenic and be in a good environment for raising the kids. We talked over the course of a year about places we might want to move to. That process, too, was hard for her to think about, but she'd sometimes have input and want to discuss it, so we did it at a pace that was comfortable relatively for her.)
Whose idea was it? (We were on the east coast. Neither of us is from there, and we didn't want to stay there. She said one day, regarding starting my own business, something like, "well, you aren't getting any younger!" like as in, let's do it. She was the one who suggested moving here. She says she really likes it here. We both do.)

I think her going back to school and being active in this field, outside of the house, is going to be great for her as concerns feeling more fulfilled. As I mentioned, earlier on she didn't have anything at all for herself. I encouraged her to, but there was nothing. For me even it became boring because I never had something new to hear from her or to ask her about or maybe to join in with her on. That is better now, somewhat, and seems to be going in the right direction. I've been thrilled when she's talked about doing a couple of things as a job/hobby. I liked seeing that it was in her, you know? When she told me she was really thinking about going to school for this, I was so extremely happy because she'd have something for herself that she can be proud of and also to occupy herself with in a way that she'd interact with people, clients, maybe repeat clients, outside of the house. I'm still happy for her in that way even though right now it's tough to get really excited given what we're going through.

Yeah she needs to fulfill her own sense of being and not look to you for that.

One thing I often tell people that want to leave their spouse is what do you see happening that isn't happening now with your spouse? Why can't you make it happen while married.

IF they are wanting to 'meet someone new' I ask them how would you feel if all you meet were relationships that do not live up to what you had or what you are anticipating and then your spouse doesn't want you back? How would you feel? Where would you be then?

[Comments on this post
confusedbyitall agrees: I listen but there's nothing to hear a lot of the time. Her assumptions and previous observations form the answer for her before it is formed as a question or statement for me to hear.]



Well, maybe that's part of the problem. It isn't all about great sex and telling her how beautiful she is, what a great mother she is. Maybe it's about seeing when she's sad or depressed and asking questions. Maybe it's not about offering suggestions about how she can improve herself and make herself happier.

Maybe it's looking at yourself a little bit, too.

As you post and I read along the relationship is less perfect that originally stated. I find the "assumptions and observations" comment telling. You seem to be directing on how to feel, what to do.

There is nothing compared to the loneliness you feel when you are lonely but with another person. I think she's lonely - just my very unprofessional opinion.

She had said she isn't getting out of the relationship what she thinks she should, but couldn't say anything she thought she should get. That was before yesterday when we talked for quite a while about communication. It seems that is the issue really. I even asked whether she is bored, as in, does she just crave having someone new for that thrill and wants to justify it by leaving me, as in, cheating would be "wrong" but leaving and then doing it is OK. She said that isn't it at all. She also said she knows I think she's one of the best people I've ever met, and the best woman I've ever met, that I think she's great looking, a great mom, and she does think I'm very nice to her. I think it really comes down to the internalizing of things including assumptions about things that just aren't there that have eaten her up inside. Also, yes, she needs something for herself she can point to and say is hers. She doesn't have that yet.

Women can tend to feel like that when the kids are grown and capable of taking care of themselves then mom feels less needed and then starts internalizing and realizes 'WHAT does she HAVE?'. So it would be good for her to take some classes and hobbies and find fun things to do with you.

She had said she isn't getting out of the relationship what she thinks she should, but couldn't say anything she thought she should get. That was before yesterday when we talked for quite a while about communication. It seems that is the issue really. I even asked whether she is bored, as in, does she just crave having someone new for that thrill and wants to justify it by leaving me, as in, cheating would be "wrong" but leaving and then doing it is ok. She said that isn't it at all. She also said she knows I think she's one of the best people I've ever met, and the best woman I've ever met, that I think she's great looking, a great mom, and she does think I'm very nice to her. I think it really comes down to the internalizing of things including assumptions about things that just aren't there that have eaten her up inside. Also, yes, she needs something for herself she can point to and say is hers. She doesn't have that yet.


What assumptions about what things? I'm lost here.

I am guessing things like how she feels he is in a mood when he isn't

[Comments on this post
confusedbyitall agrees: I listen but there's nothing to hear a lot of the time. Her assumptions and previous observations form the answer for her before it is formed as a question or statement for me to hear.]



Well, maybe that's part of the problem. It isn't all about great sex and telling her how beautiful she is, what a great mother she is. Maybe it's about seeing when she's sad or depressed and asking questions. Maybe it's not about offering suggestions about how she can improve herself and make herself happier.

Maybe it's looking at yourself a little bit, too.

As you post and I read along the relationship is less perfect that originally stated. I find the "assumptions and observations" comment telling. You seem to be directing on how to feel, what to do.

There is nothing compared to the loneliness you feel when you are lonely but with another person. I think she's lonely - just my very unprofessional opinion.


I can see how it might come across that way in writing here on the computer without a fuller picture. I by no means direct or tell her what to think or anything like that. What I was referring to is in the communication cycle, people, as Taliman (sorry I got the name wrong I think hinted at) is people receive an intended message based on their own personal history and understandings, observations, etc. If you grew up having people tell you that the label hung on the color black is green, and then I asked whether you saw the green grass, you would say no even if you did see it. That is a very simplified example. I know this is something we'd need to understand about each other, as did her dad who works in this field. Nevertheless, it isn't as if this has been an ongoing overt, discussed problem. It wasn't discussed at all because there was never feedback that it was a problem... Does that make sense?

She has seen me in a grumpy mood, and has seen me get upset or angry. She wants to avoid conflict. Conflict to her, as an extreme introvert in communication, is anything that is more than a pleasant and insignificant difference of opinions. It causes her to stop saying what she wants. It also is a cause for her to assume (and this is by her own admission, but she says she knows I'd be mad or not like it or whatever it is) that if she were to say something it would lead to conflict and she dislikes that so severely that she doesn't say anything and is left with a very bad feeling about it. She avoids saying most things, because she "knows" this would get me mad and upset. She never found out because she didn't talk. The alternate history played out in her mind is what has become her reality about all of those times she's sure I'd be "mad". I don't get very upset, or mad, don't fume about things. If she'd inquire, I'd honestly tell her when I am or am not upset, but the question, and therefore feedback to her, isn't there for her to see in fact I'm totally fine.

This discussion of how to improve her communication definitely does include what I can do to help her. It does seem like I'm dwelling on this issue, but it is the issue. Her dad, an expert in the area of communication styles as I mentioned earlier, and her step mom, both find all of this to be true. It is in fact the cause of her negative feelings. They say they have had this experience with her also, and with my father in law's sister who is also very similar in her communication style.

I do ask about her when she seems down! I think your thoughts there, given that wasn't mentioned previously, are very important and that was a great observation on your part. I ask, she has a hard time saying anything is wrong about anything, no matter what the cause of her being down might be. This also is something her dad and step mom have observed. Our interactions aren't me telling her she needs to do this or that, or she needs to think this or that, by far not. She does need to speak up so she can be heard and so I can understand what she wants more. She doesn't, and she says she doesn't, because she assumes it would lead to conflict.

It's not all about how she is broken and needs to be fixed. It is, though, the case that she is an extreme introvert in communication. She does assume a lot about things she never inquires about and takes away the negative mostly because she's afraid to possibly be exposed to a possible debate or difference of opinions. These are all things she has said herself.

Thanks for your thoughtful input, but I describe it, as did her step mom last night, that you can spend so much effort and time just trying to get her to open up at all about anything. About some things she is at ease. If it involves a decision where there may be a difference of opinions or a disagreement (not argument, not hateful talk, none of that), she doesn't engage in conversation. I've encouraged her, let her know it's OK to tell me what she's thinking, don't worry, I honestly won't be upset...

In communicating better, I need to know how I can best help her feel at ease in letting me know things, letting me know what is important, letting me know if it seems to her I'm tense or "grumpy" or whatever it is, which can happen. I'm human. I want to do that for her and us.

I didn't say the relationship is perfect. But I will say, it is without major blow outs, major disagreements, and so on. It is full of respect for each other. She hasn't been mean or talked hatefully to me, and vice versa. It is without bickering, petty revenge over little things...

I am guessing things like how she feels he is in a mood when he isn't


THAT IS IT!! Sorry if that wasn't clear earlier. See, this is a great example. There was some discussion, someone said, hey, this doesn't seem so "perfect" after all. What does he mean assumptions? He is telling her what to think...

I'm not at all, wow, by no means. I just want her to tell me at all WHAT she thinks, not me tell her HOW or WHAT to think.

You wrote what you did, rather than sitting there thinking what you were thinking and keeping it inside. She would have taken the words, noticed a few omission, noticed the focus of it being on her communication, which it is, but yes for sure, wow, I am a part of that and want to help! and then kept quiet. She'd internalize that negative sort of impression, and go with it. The next times she'd notice things felt similar to that, she'd avoid even asking the question or making the statement in the first place because the last time she did, I said this negative thing and must have been in a bad mood.

I am human and need the feedback. And I want it! Again, it is sort of like playing charades with just the opening statement but no or very little feedback along the way saying "colder, warmer" and then pow, now she's ready to talk because she is so majorly eaten up inside that she has to act, not discuss and try to figure it out.

I figured that you meant she is projecting her negative feelings onto you must be the one with the bad vibes and then walking around all day miserable rather than coming out and asking do you mind, or what do you feel if I take a class or join Curbs?
She needs to realize she can communicate her feelings and wants and needs to you.
So far she has probably been busy taking care of cleaning and taking care of the kids and now it has hit her that she is in a spot she didn't realize was coming and assumes she can't try doing things different like telling you I need a life, I need to get out and do things. So she continues as she has been and has more time to let it build up in her that she wants something to fill the void her kids filled when they were younger and needed her more,

By assumption, I mean, in referring to my original post, she'll assume I am in a bad mood or grumpy when I'm not. I spend most of every day at total peace. I'm happy! She doesn't inquire, and therefore doesn't know.

Beyond that, too, she'll take a few examples of when she rightly or wrongly thought I did get mad or upset about something similar to what she has in mind to talk about, and then won't say anything because she just knows for sure I'd get mad and be all upset, when she never knew really that while I might have begrudgingly mowed the yard or something, I wasn't out fuming. I actually have a hard time staying mad, and don't typically get mad.
She takes that assumption that I would have gotten mad, and that then is her reality. "He got mad (maybe so, probably not, probably more that I don't enjoy say fixing the broken light fixture but I'm not mad!!!) before in a situation like this, and I mentioned it once. I'll just not say anything again, or not even say it at all to begin with, because I just know he'll be all mad about it." That assumption is what she lets become a reality. It's an alternate history that plays out in her head. What would have really happened never happens because she won't say anything because she has assumed...

I hope that is more clear. I do appreciate your input for sure. Thanks

Many women do tend to do that. You need to be more reassuring I suppose. Like when she asks you to do something maybe try finding a way to sound more enthusiast. Encourage her to communicate more. Or if she starts assuming ask her what makes you assume that? I don't know but communication is important.

I figured that you meant she is projecting her negative feelings onto you must be the one with the bad vibes and then walking around all day miserable rather than coming out and asking do you mind, or what do you feel if I take a class or join Curbs?
She needs to realize she can communicate her feelings and wants and needs to you.
So far she has probably been busy taking care of cleaning and taking care of the kids and now it has hit her that she is in a spot she didn't realize was coming and assumes she can't try doing things different like telling you I need a life, I need to get out and do things. So she continues as she has been and has more time to let it build up in her that she wants something to fill the void her kids filled when they were younger and needed her more,

That is more and more hitting the spot, your observations are. Everyone's input and interaction is getting it fine tuned. This also is how she sees it... This isn't me putting words in her mouth either. I mean, we had that detailed talk yesterday for a couple of hours. It is so very hard for her to do that, especially now because I'm obviously upset, and she is, too.

One thing, too, to note that I think I did earlier, is that I am the only person she interacts with who might have a difference of opinion with her beyond say the kids thinking they aren't tired!! Or which restaurant has the best cheesecake when she talks with friends, you know? She hasn't had that for a very very long time. The last time she had it was maybe when she worked, which now has been 12 years, or when she was with her ex boyfriend before me, who did in fact tell her often to stop nagging him about everything. She told me that when we were going out, and newly married, that she was afraid to say things more than once because she didn't want to nag me and he used to always get irritated and tell her to cut out the nagging.

So, in an area that is difficult for an introverted communicator, the idea of voicing an opinion, letting her feelings be known when there might be other than say 90%+ agreement with her without any friction whatsoever (I don't mean arguments, just a discussion) is something she does only with me. She therefore has had very little practice in having herself be heard. I do think if she worked, especially in a creative field, or on project with a few people who might have differing opinions, this trait would have had some practice. It would be different for an extrovert who is doing nothing for herself and taking care of the kids. I am sure I'd hear it when she wanted me to hop to something or she needed to blow off some steam!! I don't. I ask when it seems she has something to say or isn't happy, but I don't hear because she doesn't say.

I do need to help her, for sure. I can, too, and will do anything she says to help!!

She is use to the fact that she wasn't communicating and now she feels a lonely empty place and she feels you should automatically have the right words and the right reactions and notice when she feels down and make the first move to comfort her.
Basically she could be feeling something like a mid life crisis and she wants you to comfort her without her having to come to you. Like the 'you must not love me because you did not notice... '

Does she have a sense of humor?
What makes her angry?
What is the most outward show of emotion has she exhibited? Details please.

Many women do tend to do that. You need to be more reassuring I suppose. Like when she asks you to do something maybe try finding a way to sound more enthusiast. Encourage her to communicate more. Or if she starts assuming ask her what makes you assume that? I don't know but communication is important.

Were you eavesdropping on our discussion yesterday evening?? Wow! I did tell her that, too, and that I can do that. To her, what for me are things I see as easy, little changes I can make to help her a lot, are huge and seem so big that she thinks I won't be able to change a little thing here and there.

I even suggested a couple of things. If she tells me to do something like take out the garbage, and I use the garbage can, too, :) , so I notice eventually without being told to take it out, but if she tells me and I space it off, OK, forget it. It's minor. For her, though, that is one more source where I am just possibly going to get mad so she doesn't say, "hey, now, it stinks and I do enough around here, damnit!!" or even obviously in a nicer way. One thing I suggested is if it is something that is one of those things that is important, that if not done would be a big thing and she doesn't want to let it get to her saying it twice or three times because she doesn't want that "confrontation" that doesn't happen because it either wouldn't have been there or maybe it would but doesn't happen because she doesn't say anything, she can say: "I really want you to take the car in to get looked at." rather than saying "Can you take the car in to get looked at, do you think? Do you have time?"

The other is, and it may seem artificial, but would help a ton I think, if she thinks I'm in a mood, whether I am or not, she can tell me nonverbally so we don't even have to discuss it, at least not then, and it could be done with people around or without others around. She could say something to me, anything, not on the topic, as she touches me on the elbow... I told her, OK, no discussing it now, I'll poker face it and chill out if I was upset, and if I wasn't upset I won't react negatively. I'll "go to the bathroom" or "go check something in the pantry", take a deep breath, or 10, relax, think about my bodylanguage that could have sent out a negative vibe, think of something funny and smile, then walk back in. I want to give her immediate feedback, too, when I walk back in by say, winking if she was right, "I was grumpy, sorry." and that being said by just winking. Maybe I could verbalize it and say, "oh, cutie, do you remember that one movie I was going to record on the tivo? What was the name? No, it didn't come on yet." something with the word no to say, no, I wasn't grumpy.

We can discuss these things later, when she is ready, but at least we can both get that immediate feedback, she can see when maybe I look like I'm in a mood but I'm not, and she can communicate it without the apprehension there would be conflict. If I am or am not in a mood, I'll leave and adjust my demeanor either way. As concerns her wanting to not nag, she can tag that extra word on, or start it with that phrase, "I really want you to...." Now, if she says it every single time she really wants me to get milk for the kids to help get their lunch ready, or she really wants me to turn the light on... you know what I mean, don't over use it, but add that little phrase. Hey, you got my attention, obviously, but now I have feedback. I am listening and want to hear!!

Does she have a sense of humor?
What makes her angry?
What is the most outward show of emotion has she exhibited? Details please.

She does have a sense of humor. I like it most when we can even carry on our interactions just joking around. Sometimes she isn't in a mood to get up for that, you know? She isn't the painfully quiet type of introvert, if that makes sense. She smiles, doesn't avert her glance, you know?

It's hard to say what makes her angry, because she doesn't get really angry typically... I'm thinking of some examples. I'd say the thing that can get her irritated is if she is having alone time, which she likes to have in the morning before the kids get up, and she is interrupted, and that can even be me saying hi too long before she has woken up all the way!! That's OK, I understand. But as for what would cause her to lead into something with, "you know, you really have to x,y, z because I'm tired of it." there is nothing at least that she will say, no.

As for an outward show of emotion, one in a negative situation was her reaction to her saying something she shouldn't have, and it was disrespectful and very hurtful, to me and our kids. We have two little girls. She had bought her best friend's little boy some red crocks. I was going to wrap the present. Our older daughter, 8 at the time, loves wrapping presents. Our younger one, almost 7 at the time, also wanted to help. I said, rather than wrapping, what about using a bow? They thought it was great. We couldn't find any premade bows, and I can't tie them well, but there was thin ribbon, the sort you could tie a bow with then scrape with a pair of scissors. I and my girls cut some pieces of gold ribbon, which looked quite nice against the red shoes. They each helped tie a ribbon on a shoe. It looked cute. I laughed, though, and told them he and his brother don't like girly stuff, and he might not like that. They thought it was funny. I said, let's bring a snake to give him when he "unwraps" the present, that is, unties the bows. I said if they think it's OK, the shoes looked great, but make sure to pull those bows off and don't tease him if he doesn't like it. Help him put the little rubber snake between the holes like I had in my pair of crocks I used as houseshoes at the time. To move forward, I brought the girls to the playground where Jenn met up with her best friend, and her two boys were there, the sort of little boys who think pink is gross and kissing is disgusting, you know? He took the lid off the not wrapped box, saw the shoes, and had a look on his face like, "oh, wow, I don't like that!" I said to the girls, hey, take those off, he doesn't like them, give him the... " as I reached for the box to help show him it was the wrapping, not a pair of girly shoes or anything, and to give him the snake. What ended up happening was my wife said, "you idiots" wouldn't look at us, and proceeded to appologize for us being stupid and all of this. I kept my cool, explained, but she was still mad. Her friend was silent on the matter. We didn't get to the snake. We got in the car in a little bit to leave, and I asked her what she called us. I really cannot stand for any display that is disrespectful or that would tell our kids they are dumb or anything of the sort. She lied and said she hadn't said anything, or she didn't remember... She did end up saying she did say something. She said we should have known better. Ok, he did react negatively but we also didn't make sure to have the chance to show him it's a loosely tied bow on his present, not big girly bows attached to his shoes or anything. She didn't appologize, but rather said we shouldn't have done it and should have known better. I did get very mad, and told her not to talk to me or the kids like that, that it wasn't acceptable, ever. There was yelling. There was no name calling, I don't do that, and she doesn't, except right then at the park in front of her friend and the kids. She did end up saying she also doesn't like being talked to the way I was talking to her even thought it is because she did something that was an extreme, very mean. Sometimes I think if you are wronged or disrespected you have to be able to say, hey, you crossed the line and I am really, really mad.

As for a positive strong display of emotion, it is usually more of a good mood, an extra hug, an extra big smile. She has noticed sometimes when I do things she didn't tell me to and wouldn't have expected, like say cleaning the bathroom and putting away the laundry, cleaning up the dishes when she isn't looking. That turns into a smile, a hug. A better mood.

I haven't seen any super happy, jump up and down emotion, though. That happens rarely for anyone I guess, but she does react positively with emotion, and it's usually a demonstration of caring and happiness.

Were you eavesdropping on our discussion yesterday evening??? Wow! I did tell her that, too, and that I can do that. To her, what for me are things I see as easy, little changes I can make to help her a lot, are huge and seem so big that she thinks I won't be able to change a little thing here and there.

I even suggested a couple of things. If she tells me to do something like take out the garbage, and I use the garbage can, too, :) , so I notice eventually without being told to take it out, but if she tells me and I space it off, ok, forget it. It's minor. For her, though, that is one more source where I am just possibly going to get mad so she doesn't say, "hey, now, it stinks and I do enough around here, damnit!!" or even obviously in a nicer way. One thing I suggested is if it is something that is one of those things that is important, that if not done would be a big thing and she doesn't want to let it get to her saying it twice or three times because she doesn't want that "confrontation" that doesn't happen because it either wouldn't have been there or maybe it would but doesn't happen because she doesn't say anything, she can say: "I really want you to take the car in to get looked at." rather than saying "Can you take the car in to get looked at, do you think? Do you have time?"

The other is, and it may seem artificial, but would help a ton I think, if she thinks I'm in a mood, whether I am or not, she can tell me nonverbally so we don't even have to discuss it, at least not then, and it could be done with people around or without others around. She could say something to me, anything, not on the topic, as she touches me on the elbow... I told her, ok, no discussing it now, I'll poker face it and chill out if I was upset, and if I wasn't upset I won't react negatively. I'll "go to the bathroom" or "go check something in the pantry", take a deep breath, or 10, relax, think about my bodylanguage that could have sent out a negative vibe, think of something funny and smile, then walk back in. I want to give her immediate feedback, too, when I walk back in by say, winking if she was right, "I was grumpy, sorry." and that being said by just winking. Maybe I could verbalize it and say, "oh, cutie, do you remember that one movie I was going to record on the tivo? What was the name? No, it didn't come on yet." something with the word no to say, no, I wasn't grumpy.

We can discuss these things later, when she is ready, but at least we can both get that immediate feedback, she can see when maybe I look like I'm in a mood but I'm not, and she can communicate it without the apprehension there would be conflict. If I am or am not in a mood, I'll leave and adjust my demeanor either way. As concerns her wanting to not nag, she can tag that extra word on, or start it with that phrase, "I really want you to...." Now, if she says it every single time she really wants me to get milk for the kids to help get their lunch ready, or she really wants me to turn the light on... you know what I mean, don't over use it, but add that little phrase. Hey, you got my attention, obviously, but now I have feedback. I am listening and want to hear!!!



I know I'm alone in this but I think you are picking the relationship - and her - to pieces.

It appears to me that you think her failure to communicate is causing all these problems. I don't know why she stopped communicating, if she ever did. Maybe - because she is not a great communicator - she doesn't want to discuss this every night for several hours. Maybe she feels cornered. Maybe she feels she's been ignored, her needs not met, for too long.

I don't you see you taking any blame in this. It sounds like your rules on how this relationship should work without much consideration for her comfort level.

And, again, I know I'm in the minority but I have been in relationships that ended because he/I simply wasn't in love with the other person any more. Not taking a moral stand - divorce/children = a rough road. But maybe she just doesn't love you any more for any number of reasons.

I am good at talking about it once, apologizing if there's a need - I am NOT good at lectures and advice... and advice... and advice and "you should have said this instead of that." Why, because you think so?

Maybe she's feeling badgered. I think you can talk a subject to death.

A lot of times too a simple hug is enough to make a wife get over negative feelings.
Like when she asks you to mow the lawn give her a hug and ask her if she can fix you a drink for when you are almost done. Or when she is washing the dishes a lot of women like a guy to walk up behind them and give them a hug [sounds a little corny but some women do like that]. A lot of times just a hug can melt any negative vibes
Put some spontaneousness in the relationship and go out of your way a little.

I know I'm alone in this but I think you are picking the relationship - and her - to pieces.

It appears to me that you think her failure to communicate is causing all these problems. I don't know why she stopped communicating, if she ever did. Maybe - because she is not a great communicator - she doesn't want to discuss this every night for several hours. Maybe she feels cornered. Maybe she feels she's been ignored, her needs not met, for too long.

I don't you see you taking any blame in this. It sounds like your rules on how this relationship should work without much consideration for her comfort level.

And, again, I know I'm in the minority but I have been in relationships that ended because he/I simply wasn't in love with the other person any more. Not taking a moral stand - divorce/children = a rough road. But maybe she just doesn't love you any more for any number of reasons.

I am good at talking about it once, apologizing if there's a need - I am NOT good at lectures and advice ... and advice ... and advice and "you should have said this instead of that." Why, because you think so?

Maybe she's feeling badgered. I think you can talk a subject to death.


This condensed version is an effort to stop us from going from discussion on Saturday night when she talked for the first time to a lawyer post haste. I am talking with you guys cause you are helping get some perspective, and checking whether what I'm suggesting isn't off base.

Is it worth going to get help, are these ideas about helping be a better person for her to communicate worth it? Or should I just flush it all down the toilet and say, yeah, it's because she isn't communicating because she is tired of me, so to hell with it, throw it all away. You would be way off on that one. Since she was little she has been painfully shy. She has opened up some. She still doesn't say what's on her mind.

I agree there could be just that possibility, it could be that she just isn't in love. It can't be explained, oh well. It isn't. Some of it could be that, but so you hit a little bit of a rough patch=> ditch it all? You are in a rut=> bail out and leave? You got to be kidding me.

I don't badger her. We don't talk about the ways in which she's all wrong.

She isn't talking. She never has. It is her communication style, and I'm OK with that, except that I didn't know it ate her up inside.

I don't tell her what to think, how, what to do, you got that all 100% wrong.

My interaction on here to this detail is because actually a few people have had great input and have helped me check what I was thinking, think about other things, and try to figure out how I can help her be comfortable and willing to communicate. She wants to leave me and it's like a ton of bricks hit me out of nowhere. It hit her dad and step mom out of nowhere, and they have the same take on her communication.

Talk a subject to death? Read with open eyes. Every little post and interaction has helped lead a little further to some input for me to consider, and it sounds too like Talaniman is getting to something from this information. I love her so much, and no, don't badger her. I don't talk about how she's all wrong. I tell her how she's all right.

You are way off on the comfort level thing and how the relationship should work. I will do ANYTHING, anything, if only I had the input from her, to allow her to speak her mind, be heard. Our other items, how to raise the kids, where they go to school, what they do for activities, everything, is totally fine. It is give and take.

The only thing I've picked at, for purposes of discovery of what the hell I can do better and how I can help her given the way she is, not that it is right or wrong, mind you, is how I can help her be exactly that, more comfortable and able to speak her mind.

I have body language, I must, sometimes, or vocal expression somehow, that puts her ill at ease. That is given she is a person with what is in her head and in her past experiences. I can do things differently, and want to, if only she helps me know what those things are. I'm asking, not telling here, how to make her more comfortable.

If after reading this you think I pick at her and badger her and tell her what to think and how to do this and that then I don't know what to say.

A lot of times too a simple hug is enough to make a wife get over negative feelings.
Like when she asks you to mow the lawn give her a hug and ask her if she can fix you a drink for when you are almost done. Or when she is washing the dishes a lot of women like a guy to walk up behind them and give them a hug [sounds a little corny but some women do like that]. A lot of times just a hug can melt any negative vibes
Put some spontaneousness in the relationship and go out of your way a little.

Thank you for those ideas... I think you are right, those things could help, for sure!

How old are you both, and have you ever been separated for an extended length of time??

Promise last questions.

You mentioned her father being in the field of communication, and that she has a masters in speech language pathology. I find it interesting that with so much knowledge about communication, she seems to have a harder time with it than most. Perhaps something about the amount of communication knowledge she has gotten since she was young, and then went to school and learned about, has somehow affected her? I just think it's kind of ironic.
Perhaps, as was mentioned earlier, a marriage counselor would be in order. Maybe there is some exercises you can do at home together, like you have 15 seconds to say anything you want to say, good or bad, but always respectful, never hurtful. Maybe if there is a prescribed time she can express her emotions (like while you are playing this "game"), she will be more comfortable doing it.
It seems as if you are bending over backwards trying to come up with some intricate sophisticated way to communicate, and maybe a counselor could simplify it. What's more, maybe that is the connection with your wife's knowledge of communication and her own communication skills. Perhaps she knows SO much about it that she views it as highly complex and something that is a chore to do as a result.
If there were an easy way about this, like I could just tell you what to do and you could do it and everything would be better, I would tell her to say what she means and mean what she says. It's okay to have emotions and express them. It's OKAY that you get grumpy, you shouldn't have to hide that. If she can learn to be okay with it too, and know that it doesn't mean you love her any less (because like I said, you have good and bad times regardless of if you're in a relationship or not), and maybe get a little grumpy herself sometimes, that is all you really need. Maybe this relationship NEEDS more conflict. Maybe she needs to get angry and make you sleep on the couch every once in a while, and maybe you need to get angry and go tinker in the garage for an hour once in a blue moon too. That way, you get to share the experience of making up, which you have been missing out on!

:-D

Good luck.

If after reading this you think I pick at her and badger her and tell her what to think and how to do this and that then I don't know what to say.


You asked for advice and opinions. That's what you got. You can pick which advice you take, you can decide that people who don't agree with you are wrong.

You posted very personal information on a public board and got opinions.

I gave you mine. I said right up front that I thought this was less about her going for counselling and more about couples counselling. It appears you pretty much ignored that at that time.

Your personal attack on me was unnecessary. You don't like my advice, you don't think you have any fault, fine. Keep walking. Ignore me. But in the meantime - please don't put words in my mouth.

I personally would be a lot more comfortable if SHE would actually post HER thoughts. You said she's reading the answers. I'd be curious to know what her perception of you, her and the marriage is.

I would be very uncomfortable with the "I'm going away by myself for a few days, on a retreat, to think things over." I think that's the first step to walking out the door. But, again, you pick the advice you think is right for you. I'm not there, I haven't spoken with her.

How old are you both, and have you ever been seperated for an extended lenght of time????

Promise last questions.

We are 39. We were separated, not as in marital break up, but due to work and a storm at our house where we used to live, quite a few times, say 5, for a week to a few weeks over the years. I also used to have a huge commute for a year so I was gone a few nights a week typically.

Thanks!

You asked for advice and opinions. That's what you got. You can pick and chose which advice you take, you can decide that people who don't agree with you are wrong.

You posted very personal information on a public board and got opinions.

I gave you mine. Your personal attack on me was unnecessary. You don't like my advice, you don't think you have any fault, find. Keep walking. But in the meantime - please don't put words in my mouth.

So keep handling things the way you are and let us know how this works out.

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

It wasn't that I disagree with your input, when it was input, but rather your assertions about harping on her and badgering her and on and on are just far removed from how it is.

The one bit I guess, no, for sure, I disagree with is the idea that if, and I don't want to misquote you, if you just aren't in love anymore it's OK to bail. What is not being in love anymore? I've had times where I thought, man, I wish she'd show me more attention, some affection, not sex, but hugs, something, show interest in what I'm doing, tell me she thinks it's good I make sure to get exercise or that I don't go out with the guys after work as much as other husbands do, or whatever. It left me feeling less loved than I thought I could be, and feeling negative, but it works itself out.

Anyway, my very firm statements were to clarify that this beating a subject to death is detailed interaction with everyone who has very graciously given their time to the effort to help me have ideas on saving what I really do appreciate. Some of your conclusions, or statements, were based on nothing that exist... This just happened Saturday night. I'm desperate to put all the effort into this I can. Don't take it the wrong way.

Thanks again for your input, I do value it.

Anyway, my very firm statements were to clarify that this beating a subject to death is detailed interaction with everyone who has very graciously given their time to the effort to help me have ideas on saving what I really do appreciate. Some of your conclusions, or statements, were based on nothing that exist... This just happened Saturday night. I'm desperate to put all the effort into this I can. Don't take it the wrong way.

Thanks again for your input, I do value it.



My thinking is that you have posted in this same thread 38 times in a 22 hour period (if I am right - ?) This seems excessive to me, made me think possibly you were badgering her. I would not be happy (were I her) with the blow-by-blow details of our every discussion on a public message board.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I have nothing else to contribute anyway.

You asked for advice and opinions. That's what you got. You can pick and choose which advice you take, you can decide that people who don't agree with you are wrong.

You posted very personal information on a public board and got opinions.

I gave you mine. I said right up front that I thought this was less about her going for counselling and more about couples counselling. It appears you pretty much ignored that at that time.

Your personal attack on me was unnecessary. You don't like my advice, you don't think you have any fault, fine. Keep walking. Ignore me. But in the meantime - please don't put words in my mouth.

I personally would be a lot more comfortable if SHE would actually post HER thoughts. You said she's reading the answers. I'd be curious to know what her perception of you, her and the marriage is.

I would be very uncomfortable with the "I'm going away by myself for a few days, on a retreat, to think things over." I think that's the first step to walking out the door. But, again, you pick the advice you think is right for you. I'm not there, I haven't spoken with her.

There are two details here...

I stated I might, would like to, show her these responses so please be respectful, as in, please if you have some cornball thing to say, don't, this is serious. I haven't yet, and haven't said she is sitting here reading this. I might have her read it, or not.

I think as someone said it sounds like I'm trying for some intricate ways to so on and so forth. That is his perception. I think the wordiness of my writing maybe gave that impression, that is it overcumbersome... But, it got a response from him that I do truly value. Thanks. That is one example where I'm saying I do like this detail. It's for me to try to be able to help make it good for her, not for her to slosh through this to somehow "fix" herself. She doesn't need to be fixed, just to feel she can be open, etc. I love the input of all of this, the little ideas about giving her a hug if maybe it's a situation I feel could have caused her to be timid about asking me to do something or telling me to stop doing something. That's great.

The other detail is, I did not say I'm going away to a retreat, or asking her to to go get herself squared away or something. This would be intensive couples counseling to work on what both she and I have talked about and agree that are things, mostly communication, that would be helpful to us as a couple and each as individuals of this couple. With that in mind, I have looked online with almost no luck. I am going to dial around to therapists here to see whether they know of any, but I would think going and getting some professional help, not an hour at a time then back to dealing with daily stuff, but away, together, for a few days to a week, could be very very good for us.

My thinking is that you have posted in this same thread 38 times in a 22 hour period (if I am right - ?) This seems excessive to me, made me think possibly you were badgering her. I would not be happy (were I her) with the blow-by-blow details of our every discussion on a public message board.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I have nothing else to contribute anyway.

Well, I need help in figuring out what might be wrong, getting very good ideas like from you guys, and this is very serious. As you might have guessed, our name isn't really confusedbyitall :) so I'm guessing I'm fairly well anonymous, and if not, well, you know, desperate times call for desperate measures. I am listening and valuing all of this input, thinking, getting ready to make some calls to places, etc.

I am glad you wrote again to clarify. The back and forth helps work things out sometimes where there otherwise would have been a miscommunication left to be sour.

Thank you, again, for your input. 38 times, lol, thanks, I didn't look yet. I know it's a lot, but it is my everything at this point and I don't want to badger her :) . As long as I'm getting feedback and there's some discussion leading to observations, ideas, things to think about, I'm doing everything I can to be ready to improve how I can be for her so she is comfortable and can extract the negativity, and yes, maybe loneliness, too. I am listening and hearing, and thanks very very much!

You asked for advice and opinions. That's what you got. You can pick and choose which advice you take, you can decide that people who don't agree with you are wrong.

You posted very personal information on a public board and got opinions.

I gave you mine. I said right up front that I thought this was less about her going for counselling and more about couples counselling. It appears you pretty much ignored that at that time.

Your personal attack on me was unnecessary. You don't like my advice, you don't think you have any fault, fine. Keep walking. Ignore me. But in the meantime - please don't put words in my mouth.

I personally would be a lot more comfortable if SHE would actually post HER thoughts. You said she's reading the answers. I'd be curious to know what her perception of you, her and the marriage is.

I would be very uncomfortable with the "I'm going away by myself for a few days, on a retreat, to think things over." I think that's the first step to walking out the door. But, again, you pick the advice you think is right for you. I'm not there, I haven't spoken with her.

And one more, don't take it personally, but sorry, it's off, too, and maybe it's because I wrote it poorly, I'm not sure, but at no point did I ignore what you had to say. I never meant to tell you I was shipping her off to go get herself all fixed up. Retreat for us as a couple. She did have counseling before on her own by her choice and she said it helped. She is going to do that again, too, because she wants to.

Thanks again for your help.

She wants a divorce.

Me. I go fishing for a few days, and let her do what she wants. But when I got back, introverted or not, someone would owe me an explanation as to why after 11 years, my family is being torn apart!