Scripture speaks of it as the great falling away.

Falling away that's a nice way of putting it I a not sue what that mean? I view it as the human races time to tap into the light of the creator within and evolve and have a more elevated level of counciousness

falling away thats a nice way of putting it I a not sue what that mean?

It means that people are turning away from God and His word.

lighterrr,
Jesus main purpose of coming to earth was for the salvation of mankind for eternal punishment.
His second purpose was to teach us by word and deed all that the bible tells us He did.
Yes, the falling away has begun. The latest USA statistics show that the USA is beginning to do what Europe has already done and that is to switch more and more to secularism.
The statistics show that 10% fewer people claim to believe in God.
How very sad that is.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Folks... I think this thread has gone too long.

Much had been said here, much had been read. People shared their personal experiences, their thinkings, their ideas, their interpretations and their opinions. After all this, I think we should by now have be clear on what is salvation and how to get it? Can we lose it or can we not? We now know what is sin and intentional sin. We know now how to deal with the present or past sin.

I think we should stop this thread and start a new discussion because one thing is for sure that there is no instrument in theology or science which can tell us whether we have salvation or not. It is known to God only and we will know it when time comes.

So let's continue listen to the "tiny voice", and continue doing the things which would make us hold our heads high when we see Jesus.

Triund,
You said...
"So let's continue listen to the "tiny voice", and continue doing the things which would make us hold our heads high when we see Jesus."
That's good advice for this or any thread.
Fred

I think instead of debating who is saved or not, who lost their salvation, or not, who is following the scripture the way it was intended or not, that we should just live each day to the best of our ability.

The percentage of people believing that the bible is the absolute truth is going down for a reason.
People are getting smarter, more enlightened, trust in their heart and spirit more than what is written in a book that may or may not even be true. I see it as a step in the right direction.

Just adhering to a book of rules for fear of going to hell is not what it's all about. Living your life in a way that contributes to the goodness, love and support to our fellow man is what should be our goal. What happens after we leave this planet is anybodies guess. I happen to believe that goodness yields goodness. I think that somehow you get what you give. This is not my motive though. When you are truly in tune with what is right, you do it because anything else just feels bad. The after life will take care of itself. Make THIS world a better place.

LOL... people are getting SMARTER that is the reason people don't believe the Bible is absolute truth. Well of course I disagree with that thought because it doesn't jive with the Bible or God's thoughts. But it did make me chuckle.

You know there is nothing new under the sun. People have gotten "smarter" in the past too! In fact the bible records in the OT that everyone did what was"right" in their own eyes... you should check it out. The Lord wasn't impressed with their enlightenment and step in the right direction either.

Incidentally the bible is NOT a book of rules and fear. It is all about Love, Mercy, forgiveness, redemption... ect. The only reason one would consider it a book of rules and fear is if they want to bypass God's thoughts and HIS plan by doing what they consider proper, moral. Good and SMARTER. The bible warns us... doing this is NOT smart.

I guess it all comes down to this question... do we really think that we are good enough to stand before a Holy God without Jesus Christ? As for me, I'm not standing before the Father WITHOUT Him.

The work of salvation is totally Gods. "The author and finisher of our faith."IF there was something you could do to "earn" salvation, then there would also be something you could do to "not earn" salvation. "No man comes to the Father but that the Holy Spirit draws him."

LOL....people are getting SMARTER that is the reason people don't believe the Bible is absolute truth. well of course I disagree with that thought because it doesn't jive with the Bible or God's thoughts. But it did make me chuckle.

ya know there is nothing new under the sun. People have gotten "smarter" in the past too! In fact the bible records in the OT that everyone did what was"right" in their own eyes....you should check it out. The Lord wasn't impressed with their enlightenment and step in the right direction either.

Incidently the bible is NOT a book of rules and fear. It is all about Love, Mercy, forgiveness, redemption....ect. The only reason one would consider it a book of rules and fear is if they want to bypass God's thoughts and HIS plan by doing what they consider proper, moral. good and SMARTER. The bible warns us....doing this is NOT smart.

I guess it all comes down to this question ....do we really think that we are good enough to stand before a Holy God without Jesus Christ? As for me, I'm not standing before the Father WITHOUT Him.


cozyk

I agree the age of aquarius which meaning enlightenment is among us and that is great because people will start to as why and question the bible. That is great, you know history tells us that groups that questioned the bible in the past where often frowned upon, but now the internet allows anyone to access information on spirituality and a lot of people are now minding information that makes sense. Really salvation is not found in ANY religion or church, the very salvation you seek is and has always been and will always be within you.

The gift of salvation is love from the Father, and in return we are asked for love. A willing heart to love, and be obedient to HIS will.

The Bible is the WORD made flesh that showed us the way. The fear would be that we of choice are blinded, and do not hear HIS voice.

The rules are the light of HIS will, to walk according to HIS teaching and eating from what would be in likeness to the Tree of Life rather then being as Eve and Adam were shown to have done.

Christ set us free from the curse, and has given us the free will choice to walk in righteousness and as servants of God. (1 Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive )

Dominion and power was given to Christ, and He will lead the way. Choice is to follow HIM, and not take of sin.. Repent go forward in HIS mercy and forgivenss , and do it out of a heart of love for HIS love.

Prayer of heart in asking that you can be all that He created you to be, in HIS image of righteousness. Put on the armor of HIS strength and ask that evil bow down and flee from you.

May HIS grace hold stedfast in each heart unto godliness known in the gospel.

Triund,
You said....
"So let's continue listen to the "tiny voice", and continue doing the things which would make us hold our heads high when we see Jesus."
That's good advice for this or any thread.
Fred

Thanks Fred.

God bless you,

Richard

Cozyk,

LOL.. the wizzard of OZ? Hmmmm? Well, if I recall correctly Dorothy was dreamin.. and Glenda wasn't real. If we always had it, then the Lord Jesus died for NOTHING.

Really salvation is not found in ANY religion or church, the very salvation you seek is and has always been and will always be within you.

lighterrr,

Are you claiming that evil does not exist, because if eveyone has salvation in them then why is there evil in any of us? Do you believe satan beguiled Eve when she took from the tree of knowledge?

From what you have said before, you believe that man was created in God's image. Is that where you stop, and no longer believe what else was written?

Salvation is love from God that comes to us by Christ.. Salvation became that Tree of Life that Eve and Adam neglected to eat from... A tree with branches that are cut off if not fruitful.

If you claim there is evil, then you also know that salvation can be lost when someone does not do the righteousness of HIS Father. When he decides to do the lust of this world, and live in his delusion that God will permit, if they turn their back on HIS love.

How much of God's Word do you live by?

ClassyT – so, in this thread we were asking the question, can one lose his salvation? It is my opinion that before this question even gets off the ground it is already assuming something incorrectly and I will attempt to argue for this in the following.

Modern Christianity often thinks of salvation as asking Jesus into your heart or praying the sinner's prayer. I said on the post that we often have a very superficial understanding of what salvation really is and so because this is true, our depth of communicating the gospel with each other as an idea is also superficial. When I've heard people discuss personal security or assurance of salvation, people will ask others “did you ask Jesus into your heart and mean it?” That person responds “yes, I did” and the other will say “then you are saved” The other side of the argument—those who argue you can lose your salvation—is just as superficial in their understanding of salvation. Their language is like this “if you fall back into sin, it is proof that you have lost your salvation.” They would also say things like “if you stop going to church or if you fall into some grievous sin, you have lost your salvation.” Both of these views, in my opinion, fail to recognize very profound points that the apostles and Jesus made in the New Testament. I will attempt to explain those points in turn.

For those who believe that salvation comes through praying the sinner's prayer or by inviting Jesus into their heart, they seem to have only understood one facet of coming to faith. They do rightly understand that making a commitment to follow Jesus ultimately comes from the heart…that they have rightly understood. But part of what they do not understand is that the gospel message itself is one that people do not ordinarily jump at with great enthusiasm. What I mean is, the message of Jesus and the apostles is very difficult to receive apart from God's intervention because it is calling me a sinner and an enemy of God. The gospel tells me that I deserve to be destroyed. I don't know about you but I don't initially find that kind of news all that exciting. Moreover, the gospel is also calling me to die to myself. Again, this isn't immediately good news either. Jesus is making a claim to have died for me because I am deserving of God's wrath and that if I am to follow him, my life will be filled with suffering and sorrow en route to the kingdom of God. I have to be willing to deny my sinful impulses to live for my own fleshly desires—to repudiate sin in my life and to take up my cross and follow Jesus even if it means dying for him. It seems to me that our Christian culture has modified the true gospel and made it more palatable for the average person. We tell people “come to Jesus and he will solve all of your problems. He has a perfect plan for your life.” Well, God's plan is perfect all right, but in our culture we are conditioned to think that by “perfect” it means that our marriage will be strong, our careers will be a success, and our lives will be filled with happiness and contentment. But that is a worldly perspective and not a biblical one. If we tell people that Jesus loves them and that he wants to fix their empty lives and fulfill his perfect plan for them, what rational person would reject that invitation? But that is not the gospel message. But people will say “yeah, but Jesus said 'I have come that you may have life; and that you may have it more abundantly.'” Yes, he did say that but look at the apostles. They all died violent deaths. The book of Hebrews mentions in Ch 11 that some were put into prison, beaten, sawn in two, and killed with the sword. Why? “…so that they might rise again to a better life.” What Jesus meant by an abundant life is life in the age to come…life in the kingdom of God. He never promised that he would give us an abundant life in this world. On the contrary, Paul says: “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.” But why? Why are we called to suffer as well as believe? Because as James puts it: “Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” The idea of suffering is that it is meant to bring us to maturity in our faith because that is how God has made it. Our faith and its withstanding of trials and suffering is worth more than anything in this world.

So I guess the natural question one may ask at this point is, can someone who prays the sinner's prayer be saved? Absolutely... but I do not think that encouraging someone to simply ask Jesus into his heart without explaining to him what making a commitment to God looks like is very misleading and dishonest. We ought to tell someone that following God requires one to totally deny himself and learn about God and his ways, not to look to God to solve my problems and have him grant me his perfect will for my life. If God chooses to solve my problems and sees to it that my life is prospered, that is his will. But he may leave us destitute at times and bring much pain and sorrow in this life. We have never been promised that our lives will go well. On the contrary, Jesus said that “in this world you will have sorrow. But I have overcome the world.”

Okay, so I have just argued that our gospel must be more honest and in keeping with the tradition of Jesus and the apostles. Now as it relates to eternal security, one side argues that simply praying the sinner's prayer is all it takes to make it to heaven. Well, one can pray it and become right with God on the basis of his faith but that prayer may not truly indicate the true condition of that person's heart. In the parable of the sower, Jesus lays out an argument for what sort of person enters into the kingdom of God:

“A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell along the path and was trampled underfoot, and the birds of the air devoured it. And some fell on the rock, and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up with it and choked it. And some fell into good soil and grew and yielded a hundredfold.”

Many people debate what is meant by the parable. Some argue it is talking about different types of believers. But let Jesus interpret the parable himself:

And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.' Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.”

Two things Jesus says here illustrate the point I am making:

1) time of testing
2) holding fast in an honest and good heart

As I understand this, Jesus is explaining two realities in the world. The first is that God tests our faith. The second is that a genuine believer is one that holds fast to his faith with a good and honest heart—he ultimately does not turn away from his faith.

God tests our faith not for his sake but for our own. A person can pray the sinner's prayer and may conclude that he is now right with God. Well, that may be true but it may not be true. As the parable of the sower explains, some receive the word of God with joy. They are excited about the gospel and may tell everyone about it. They may even participate in bible studies and get involved in church. But as Jesus says, “they believe for a time but in time of testing they fall away.” Ultimately, even though they asked Jesus into their hearts, when push came to shove, they didn't really want to follow Jesus because the cost was too great. At this juncture, here is the critical question: was this person ever saved? My answer is…….NO. Maybe that is striking but look at how the parable goes down. In the end, the only one who is saved is the one who not only believed at the beginning but holds fast to his faith until the end. That is the person who is saved. James puts it this way: “Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.” So then, the New Testament picture is that those who persevere in faith through trials until the end will receive eternal life.

The hope we have while we confront these trials is found in various statements made by Jesus and the apostles. John 10: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” Jesus clearly states here that those who belong to him he has the power to keep and they will not be snatched away (by the evil one). Paul says in Philippians 1: “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”

The work Paul is talking about here is the fulfillment of one's salvation. The work of God begins with the grace of faith and the fulfillment of his promises to save us. Ephesians 2: “for by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing but is a gift of God, not of works; so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

So, I want to summarize what I have said so far against the first side of the argument that says “pray the sinners prayer and you will be saved.” What I have intended to put forth so far is that while a prayer to God can be a good indicator of my real heartfelt commitment, the bible is saying that time will ultimately tell whether we are really saved. Our problem is that our hearts are deceitful and we may not really know whether we are saved or not because we may have been following God for the wrong motives. Or perhaps we are just not sure that we really meant it when we prayed to God for forgiveness. The way God graces us with assurance is to test our faith. When we survive trials and struggles of faith with our faith intact, then we can begin to have confidence that God is truly at work in us. But it is unwise of us to point to one prayer in our lives for proof that we are saved because that is not the indicator the bible is setting forth for that kind of proof. The proof is in my commitment to God to follow him even if he means my death. When I have come to a place of deep-seeded commitment and no turning back, the Spirit of God bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. And when we have come to that place in our faith, the words of Paul comfort us:

“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Bottom line is that if we are truly children of God, God promises that nothing in this world will keep us from his love. Not even myself and my own sin. Because it is he that has committed himself to bringing those who believe in him to eternal life since it is he that has graced them with saving faith to begin with. It begins with God and ends with God and we are merely recipients of God's grace. That is how I see it. I will deal with the other side of the argument at another time.

Sincerely.

Jake

There is so much really to comment on. I agree with you.. as usual.

I don't think this topic is a complicated as we make it though. I think it is a simple decision but it is a HEART decision and it takes faith. Many make a head decision and then call themselves "Christians. Some put themselves under the law or a bunch of man made rules and when they can't follow it, they boogie claiming christianity doesn't work. Many are looking for answers to lifes problems and they "ask Jesus in their hearts" until things don't go like they wanted or they find a better path of enlightenment or even a spiritual experience that makes them "feel" something. These people were NEVER Christians and i think that is why we run into so many who say they were believers but turned their back on Christ. I am convinced that the Lord Jesus NEVER knew them. ( Yes Tom, (Tj3) i am speaking of the Jews that Paul wrote to in Hebrews who went back to sacrificing and the Law, they were NOT saved, they tasted, they had HEAD knowledge)

Personally I accepted the Lord young...maybe 4 maybe younger. I simply believed it. I didn't understand everything about what happened when I received Christ ( Christ in me, i was placed IN HIM, sealed with the Holy spirit ect...) I just knew at the ripe ol age of 4 that I was a sinner. AND I don't think anyone can be saved if they don't recognize their sin and their inability to "fix" the problem.

I think scripture is clear that salvation occurs at the moment a person believes with the HEART and I think you have clarified the difference better than I ever could.

jakester, very good, I agree and thank you
So much for sharing your wisdom and your
Time with us.

God Bless You, Maggie 3

Classy,
People have long been known to outsmart themselves.
Even back in Jesus' time on earth he did not chose the smartest people who did that.
Rather he chose simple fishermen and the like who were less likely to outsmart themselves.
To me, a person who thinks he is smarter than the Holy Bible is doing just that; outsmarting themselves.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

jakester,
Thanks so much for your work on this question with that very good post.
I agree with you and the parable of sowing seed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
.

Jake

There is so much really to comment on. I agree with you.. as usual.

I don't think this topic is a complicated as we make it though. I think it is a simple decision but it is a HEART decision and it takes faith. Many make a head decision and then call themselves "Christians. Some put themselves under the law or a bunch of man made rules and when they can't follow it, they boogie claiming christianity doesn't work. Many are looking for answers to lifes problems and they "ask Jesus in their hearts" until things don't go like they wanted or they find a better path of enlightenment or even a spiritual experience that makes them "feel" something. These people were NEVER Christians and i think that is why we run into so many who say they were believers but turned their back on Christ. I am convinced that the Lord Jesus NEVER knew them. ( Yes Tom, (Tj3) i am speaking of the Jews that Paul wrote to in Hebrews who went back to sacrificing and the Law, they were NOT saved, they tasted, they had HEAD knowledge)

Personally I accepted the Lord young...maybe 4 maybe younger. I simply believed it. I didn't understand everything about what happened when I received Christ ( Christ in me, i was placed IN HIM, sealed with the Holy spirit ect...) I just knew at the ripe ol age of 4 that I was a sinner. AND I don't think anyone can be saved if they don't recognize their sin and their inability to "fix" the problem.

I think scripture is clear that salvation occurs at the moment a person believes with the HEART and I think you have clarified the difference better than i ever could.

I have to spread some love around but I agree with you and think that it is encouraging to know that others see this reality at work in life.

They do rightly understand that making a commitment to follow Jesus ultimately comes from the heart…that they have rightly understood. But part of what they do not understand is that the gospel message itself is one that people do not ordinarily jump at with great enthusiasm. What I mean is, the message of Jesus and the apostles is very difficult to receive apart from God's intervention because it is calling me a sinner and an enemy of God.

Jakester, The love of Christ, and the Word being at work in everyone is pleasing to hear. There is no doubt in that reality of comfort. If I could, I would like to make reference to what the light does for our path, and says in scriptures which tell us of a willing love that goes to God in return.

We know that satan works at imprisoning by temptation with material lust and his prideful ways. We also know that his pride was recognized by God, and it caused the division in what is known as godliness and evil.

From the beginning shown in example of God's request, God wants us to willingly receive by choice, the Word and to have it incline within our heart which incine means away from evil ways. And to hear HIS voice as you noted in John 10.

In( Ezekiel 3:10) it says: Son of man all MY WORDS that I speak receive in your heart and hear with your ears. And in (Ezekiel 3:11) whether children will hear or forbear do speak the words that God wants them to hear. Tell them the Word of God because each can be in captivity or imprisonment with satan ways.

God made us all watch men of our ways in the hope of that life of salvation, and the grace/love that was sent to set us free from a curse. The price of that freedom was Christ in HIS blood shed. Christ also did show us HIS way, and told us to follow HIM by denying the filthy way of our own flesh(Matthew 16:24 Mark 8:34 Luke 9:23).
HIS way in righteousness.(1 King 8:37)

Should we warn anyone of their filthy way? Yes, we should always warn them because that is part of the watchman's duty. Therefore hear God's Word and give Warning, make it known. (Eze 3:18) says when I say the wicked shalt surely die. And you did not give warning, nor speak to warn the wicked ways which could save his life. Then the same wicked man shall die "but" I will require at thine hand.

On the other side of that (Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.) So spreading the word is a righteous act of loving God and loving HIS children that are our brothers and sister.

But people will say “yeah, but Jesus said 'I have come that you may have life; and that you may have it more abundantly.'” Yes, he did say that but look at the apostles. They all died violent deaths. The book of Hebrews mentions in Ch 11 that some were put into prison, beaten, sawn in two, and killed with the sword. Why? “…so that they might rise again to a better life.” What Jesus meant by an abundant life is life in the age to come…life in the kingdom of God. He never promised that he would give us an abundant life in this world. On the contrary, Paul says: “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.” But why? Why are we called to suffer as well as believe? Because as James puts it: “Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” The idea of suffering is that it is meant to bring us to maturity in our faith because that is how God has made it. Our faith and its withstanding of trials and suffering is worth more than anything in this world.


God's promise is of reaping, and the trying and suffering are things we reap from our own choices whether blessing or correction. (2 Cr 9:6 Gal 6:7) It is intended to build us into what God created us to be. To be enriched, and thankful for HIS work in us.

And I include this in the parable of the sower, where the seed of HIS WORD is determine by your own choices. Whether that seed grows or becomes capitive in satan. The Kingdom of heaven or the permitted delusion of what each were permitted by what was in their heart. A failed growth in that seed, can come from satan's temptation taken instead of God's image of righteousness, and some will take that offer in a material worm just as it is written.


So what is faith? What does faith entail? Is faith our part in trusting and practicing the Word of God? Is it hearing the voice that says follow Me? Is it following the the righteous way? Is it assurance of HIS worthiness? Is it confession in Christ as the begotten Son of God? Yes because each of these is the act of trust in GOD. With the works in doing what we hold in heart of godliness which was profitable by HIS WORD.




The first is that God tests our faith.

God tests our faith not for his sake but for our own.

But as Jesus says, “they believe for a time but in time of testing they fall away.”


Where is this found in the scripture that God tests us or our faith? I get that some think God tested Job, but it says God permitted satan knowing Job's heart of love, trust, and faith. It was an example showing us how to remain stedfast. Examples throughout scripture whether in question as to why a man is blind or what took place with Job gives us the awareness of what the WORD is teaching. And Satan was not permitted to tempt Job more then what he could bear to remain faithful. How faithful is that,WOW!

James 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:




James puts it this way: “Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.” So then, the New Testament picture is that those who persevere in faith through trials until the end will receive eternal life.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations

It is an individual's own free will that follows lust by satan's temptations and they fall to the enticing way of satan

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

1 Cr 7:37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.





Bottom line is that if we are truly children of God, God promises that nothing in this world will keep us from his love. Not even myself and my own sin. Because it is he that has committed himself to bringing those who believe in him to eternal life since it is he that has graced them with saving faith to begin with. It begins with God and ends with God and we are merely recipients of God's grace. That is how I see it. I will deal with the other side of the argument at another time.



Romans 8:19-21 the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God

Children of God are predestinate by a predestinate calling from God. Predestinate to answer that calling, and predestinated in a free will to answer.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Whom he predestinate: he did prestinate to be in the image of HIS SON

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[QUOTE=sndbay;1716628]Where is this found in the scripture that God tests us or our faith? I get that some think God tested Job, but it says God permitted satan knowing Job's heart of love, trust, and faith. It was an example showing us how to remain stedfast. Examples throughout scripture whether in question as to why a man is blind or what took place with Job gives us the awareness of what the WORD is teaching. And Satan was not permitted to tempt Job more then what he could bear to remain faithful. How faithful is that,WOW!

James 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:



James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations

It is an individual's own free will that follows lust by satan's temptations and they sound enticing

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

sandbay - the word temptation by itself conjures up ideas of someone enticing another to do evil. In James 1, his first use of the word temptation (probably more aptly translated trial) in Greek is peirasmos which means to test. Here James is talking about testing one's faith to see what sort of faith it is... whether it is real or not. That is the sort of trial he has in mind. However, knowing that some detractors might interpret him incorrectly, he addresses that issue by moving the conversation from remaining steadfast in faith while enduring trials to dealing with temptation to sin. Some people could misunderstand what James is saying by saying something like this: "I was tempted to steal that guy's watch the other day and I did it because God "tempted" me." James is saying with respect to sin, "no, God doesn't tempt you to sin. That's your own heart tempting you." God doesn't test any man to sin but he tests his faith in God and I am arguing that those are two very different issues but because the word temptation is used in both cases, it sounds like James is talking about the same thing. But if you look at the context of what he is saying, I think it is clearer.

sandbay - the word temptation by itself conjures up ideas of someone enticing another to do evil. .

Yes, something evil is tempting the individual. In no way does it mean God uses evil to tempt or test anyone. And the temptation that satan puts in the ear of each individual would try their faith. But again it is not God that tries the faith of HIS children. God only give warning in saying keep watch that temptation does come and evil entices. Paul tells us that he fears that like Eve satan might beguiled us from the simplicity of Christ. And that simplicity is that we hear Christ voice, that we walk in HIS righteousness, and work of faith and love.

2 Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
God has called us to follow HIM instead unto righteousness.

1 Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;



Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

Yes, something evil is tempting the individual. In no way does it mean God uses evil to tempt or test anyone. And the temptation that satan puts in the ear of each individual would try their faith. But again it is not God that tries the faith of HIS children. God only give warning in saying keep watch that temptation does come and evil entices. Paul tells us that he fears that like Eve satan might beguiled us from the simplicity of Christ. And that simplicity is that we hear Christ voice, that we walk in HIS righteousness, and work of faith and love.

2 Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
God has called us to follow HIM instead unto righteousness.

1 Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;



Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

Hey, sndbay - well, it is clear that we do not see this the same way at all. God does test the faith of his people. He tested Abraham's faith when he asked him to sacrifice Isaac. Moses said that God "tested" Israel in the Wilderness so that they would know that man does not live off bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God:

"The whole commandment that I command you today you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land that the Lord swore to give to your fathers. And you shall remember the whole way that the Lord your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not. And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord."

Again, sndbay, there's a difference between our being tested by God for our maturity of faith and Satan tempting us to sin. These are completely different concepts.

I'm off this thread now.

jakester,
I must agree with you.
God does test us and He also allows Satan to put us to the test through temptation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

. And you shall remember the whole way that the Lord your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not.

According to scripture the years in the wilderness was because they had done evil. Their faith fell to follow temptation. Punishment was God's anger that they reap what they had sown until all that generation was consumed = died off, destroyed (uncleanness) When we turn our back on the Lord and do not follow HIS image of righteousness, these things will happen. (choice = reap = blessing or correction)

Numbers 32:13 And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.



And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord."

The Lord teaching them,(make you know) to enrich their lives. And I can understand the struggle that was permitted in what took place to teach them that life is a struggle. It will be difficulty, so the Lord suffers them to prove them in a path of goodness.

Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Deu 8:16 Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;




Again, sndbay, there's a difference between our being tested by God for our maturity of faith and Satan tempting us to sin. These are completely different concepts.

I'm off this thread now.

jasester what I am saying, there is a difference in teaching and provoked. "God does not provoke."

I do agree the Lord did prove Abraham. But it also says, so to know that Abraham did fear the Lord. How it is, that the all knowing God did not already know the mind of Abraham (or) was it God did know Abraham's mind of assumption and permitted it? Was it actually to teach and example willing, trusting, faithful heart that was seen in Abraham that prove his goodness and faith in God. What is the teaching for us, other then not to fear anything other then God. (willing trusting loving faithful heart)

Eph 5:9-13 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Thanks jasester it has been an edifying discussion that does give light..

sndbay,
I do believe that God does test us or allows the devil to do so from time to time.
Fred

sndbay,
I do believe that God does test us or allows the devil to do so from time to time.
Fred

Purely because you have said "or" is where the question lies

God's goodness endureth continually, and in (James 1:13) God said let no man say when he is tempted, I am being tempted by God. Because God cannot be tempted with evil, neither does HE tempt any man with evil.

Even in Abraham's teaching we have to look at what Abraham continually felt when he took his son to be the offering before God. Abraham trusted God, love God, and remained faithful to God because he believed in God's righteousness.(God knows best) God proved Abraham's belief by showing Abraham how his heart of love was correct and pleasing to God. God proves us in thankfullness and assurance with goodness. (the question is can any of us today say we trust God to that same prove as Abraham did)

I believe satan tempts and provokes wickedness, and as I said we have been warned throughtout scripture concerning his wickness .

Jesus in scripture was told to say when He found the disciples sleeping. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak. Watch, stay aware of satan's wickedness. And was Jesus correct, was Jesus teaching the disciples, proved to their weakness Jesus was taken by wickness.

Take care Fred, always enjoy talking with you

Christians still disagreeing. It just goes to show, you can find scripture to support whatever you want to believe.

Cozyk They were disagreeing in Pauls's day too. There is nothing new under the sun. What is your point? Does this justify your beliefs that Christianity doesn't work? Don't look a man cozky we are flawed and screwy... everyone wll stand before a Holy God and be asked "What did YOU do with Christ?" you can't point the finger and say well I would have believed but those darn Christians argued over doctrine... Everyone is ultimately accountable and will stand alone.

Cozyk They were disagreeing in Pauls's day too. There is nothing new under the sun. What is your point? Does this justify your beliefs that Christianity doesn't work? Don't look a man cozky we are flawed and screwy....everyone wll stand before a Holy God and be asked "What did YOU do with Christ?" you can't point the finger and say well i would have believed but those darn Christians argued over doctrine...Everyone is ultimately accountable and will stand alone.

It does not justify that it doesn't work, it justifies that it is wishy washy and left up to personal interpretation. I agree that man is flawed and screwy. And man wrote the bible. And man is struggling to interprete it correctly.
I also agree with you that everyONE will stand before God, and everyONE is accountable for their actions , and everyONE has a heart and a conscience that guides their behavior. That is the first hand voice of God. You can decide to follow it, or not. It's between YOU and God. Not you. And God, and what someone else's interpretation of what they read.

Cozyk,

WEll I disagree. It isn't wishy washy... MAN is. There is an answer... God has it. The problem with many Christians is they are brought up a certain way and they just go with it without really getting in the Word and finding out for themselves. Heck I have played devils advocate with Christians, and have given them some difficult questions ( they didn't know I WAS a christian) and they couldn't defend their faith. They didn't know what book or chapter to go to. They didn't know the difference from Grace and Law. Many christians accept the Lord and believe everything they are taught without question. So don't look at the BIBLE and say IT is wishy washy... trust me, it isn't God's fault.

Cosyk.

Sooo. How's about picking up the bible and finding out for sure by yourself? Start in John and asked God to help you... A. not fall asleep.. lol ( I have read your posts) and B. show YOU the truth. Take it slow... a couple of verses a day and ask GOD to enlighten you. :)

Cosyk.

Sooo. hows bout picking up the bible and finding out for sure by yourself? Start in John and asked God to help you...A. not fall asleep..lol ( i have read your posts) and B. show YOU the truth. take it slow....a couple of verses a day and ask GOD to enlighten you. :)

But it's soooooooooo borrrrrrrrrrring! Whine whine:( Can't I just allow God to speak to my heart as usual? God does enlighten me, all the time. People read different verses to support their choices. I used to do that. Back in my early 20s. Drove me crazy because I just kept looking until I could find the answer I wanted. Then I thought, how right could it be if I could do that? I feel like I've been so much more authentic to my sense of right and wrong when I truly listen to my heart.

Christians still disagreeing. It just goes to show, you can find scripture to support whatever you want to believe.

cozyk - I am really curious about where exactly you are coming from at times. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anything so please don't misunderstand me. But it SEEMS to me that you really find Christians silly and that you are here on these threads to make that point over and over again. Is it that you just like pointing out how silly Christians are? Or do I have you wrong? Because that's the way it seems to me. Maybe it makes you feel good to point out the flaws in others and in their beliefs.

Again, I'm not trying to piss you off or start a fight with you. But it appears that you have vastly different views from Christians and I get that. I guess what puzzles me is if you know you don't personally hold to the beliefs that Christians do, why even bother coming on threads like these and disagreeing with them? Hey, it's a free country and I certainly have no problem with you disagreeing but there's part of me that wonders why you do it here so often? I mean, I don't believe in Islam and I disagree with its tenets of faith, but I don't even care to go on the Islamic board and openly disagree with Muslims there. I could but I don't care to.

Here's my question. When you turn on your computer and you log onto AskMe help desk and venture into the Christian forum, what attitude is predominantly in your heart? Is it, "I can't wait to see what these clowns are talking about now?" Is it "I really feel that I want to share my perspective with these folks because I think they are missing something profound"? Or is it something completely different?

Cozyk, I hope you would be willing to answer my question because I am genuinely serious in asking it. I have no ill-will towards you nor do I have any resentment in my heart towards you but I think my question is a fair one.

Sincerely.

cozyk - I am really curious about where exactly you are coming from at times. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anything so please don't misunderstand me. But it SEEMS to me that you really find Christians silly and that you are here on these threads to make that point over and over again. Is it that you just like pointing out how silly Christians are? Or do I have you wrong? Because that's the way it seems to me. Maybe it makes you feel good to point out the flaws in others and in their beliefs.

Again, I'm not trying to piss you off or start a fight with you. But it appears that you have vastly different views from Christians and I get that. I guess what puzzles me is if you know you don't personally hold to the beliefs that Christians do, why even bother coming on threads like these and disagreeing with them? Hey, it's a free country and I certainly have no problem with you disagreeing but there's part of me that wonders why you do it here so often? I mean, I don't believe in Islam and I disagree with its tenets of faith, but I don't even care to go on the Islamic board and openly disagree with Muslims there. I could but I don't care to.

Here's my question. When you turn on your computer and you log onto AskMe help desk and venture into the Christian forum, what attitude is predominantly in your heart? Is it, "I can't wait to see what these clowns are talking about now?" Is it "I really feel that I want to share my perspective with these folks because I think they are missing something profound"? Or is it something completely different?

Cozyk, I hope you would be willing to answer my question because I am genuinely serious in asking it. I have no ill-will towards you nor do I have any resentment in my heart towards you but I think my question is a fair one.

Sincerely.

It is a fair question and I will do my best to answer it for you. Actually, I appreciate you for asking.

I was brought up drenched in christianity. Saturated in it from all sides. It did not sit right with me, but I thought. I'm just a little kid, what do I know? The grown-ups are in charge and surely they wouldn't lead me astray. As I got older, still going along with the program, more and more did not jive. Plus, I saw hypocrisy all around me in christian circles. It REALLY began to get under my skin. Even make me rebellious towards it. NOT GOD, just the christian faith. I felt like God and I had a relationship but it was just cluttered by the ifs, what's, wherefores, and whys, involved in the faith. And the rituals, don't get me started. Communion tested my last nerve. Drink blood, Eat flesh, Yuk! My relationship was a more "direct line" and with less clutter.

It's not that I LIKE pointing out how silly christians can be. I'm waiting on something to convince me that it isn't silly stuff. I would love to be persuaded, it's just that nothing has been shown to me that doesn't come across as silly. It seems that christians take things too literally. Like small children, believing the most rediculus things without thinking it through.

I think I figured out that the Santa Clause story was bunk as early as 4 or 5. I don't remember ever believing in him really. I would think, OK IF there is a Santa, HOW in the world would he get his fat body down a skinny chimney , and HOW could he go to every house in the world in one night, and HOW could he carry everyone's toys in one bag, and HOW can he live for hundreds and hundreds of years. I mean he did get old, because he has white hair and everything, but why would his age freeze at that point? For my friends that DID believe in him, I just thought they were not very bright to over look all these inconsistencies.

Logic and reason has always been a part of my thinking process. You ask why I come to these boards. It's because I am wanting something to ring true and sensible. I am hoping that my parents, grandparents, teachers, friends, are NOT just totally gullible fools. My friend believes in a literal location called hell that has a devil running around. I like to think she is more intelligent than that. She is in other areas. If someone could show me that I am the one that is wrong, it would make me have more respect for these literal believers around me. So far, it hasn't been done, but I'm still seeking. I have to fight back the urge to say" What are you, CRAZY? Yeah Noah collected a pair of EVERY species of EVERY animal on the planet and put them all together in ONE big boat. AND out of the millions of people roaming the earth, only one family was worthy to survive this flood. That makes God seem pretty ruthless doesn't it? That was one of my first clues as a small child that made me sit up and take notice. I thought , THIS story does not add up. If this doesn't add up, how reliable are the rest of the stories.

Another reason I come on these boards is that I think that maybe I CAN be a help to someone else. People that have lost their way and feel alone. I feel like God is within them, if they will just try to recognize that. God is approachable and not some scarey,
intimidating authority sitting up on a throne. I don't believe that my loving god is capable of being angry and punishing like some of the bible stories tell us. If a person does not believe in God, I want them to know they it doesn't make me see them as "less than". I still believe good loving people are still good loving people. And I still believe they are in gods hands whether they know it or not.

I question the christian faith as opposed to any other faith based board because christianity is the only faith I have a background in.
I am glad you ask me this and I'll be happy to answer anything else you want to know.:)

It is a fair question and I will do my best to answer it for you. Actually, I appreciate you for asking.

I was brought up drenched in christianity. Saturated in it from all sides. It did not sit right with me, but I thought. I'm just a little kid, what do I know? The grown-ups are in charge and surely they wouldn't lead me astray. As I got older, still going along with the program, more and more did not jive. Plus, I saw hypocrisy all around me in christian circles. It REALLY began to get under my skin. Even make me rebellious towards it. NOT GOD, just the christian faith. I felt like God and I had a relationship but it was just cluttered by the ifs, whats, wherefores, and whys, involved in the faith. And the rituals, don't get me started. Communion tested my last nerve. Drink blood,? eat flesh,? Yuk! My relationship was a more "direct line" and with less clutter.

It's not that I LIKE pointing out how silly christians can be. I'm waiting on something to convince me that it isn't silly stuff. I would love to be persuaded, it's just that nothing has been shown to me that doesn't come across as silly. It seems that christians take things too literally. Like small children, believing the most rediculus things without thinking it through.

I think I figured out that the Santa Clause story was bunk as early as 4 or 5. I don't remember ever believing in him really. I would think, ok IF there is a Santa, HOW in the world would he get his fat body down a skinny chimney , and HOW could he go to every house in the world in one night, and HOW could he carry everyone's toys in one bag, and HOW can he live for hundreds and hundreds of years. I mean he did get old, because he has white hair and everything, but why would his age freeze at that point? For my friends that DID believe in him, I just thought they were not very bright to over look all these inconsistencies.

Logic and reason has always been a part of my thinking process. You ask why I come to these boards. It's because I am wanting something to ring true and sensible. I am hoping that my parents, grandparents, teachers, friends, are NOT just totally gullible fools. My friend believes in a literal location called hell that has a devil running around. I like to think she is more intelligent than that. She is in other areas. If someone could show me that I am the one that is wrong, it would make me have more respect for these literal believers around me. So far, it hasn't been done, but I'm still seeking. I have to fight back the urge to say" What are you, CRAZY? Yeah Noah collected a pair of EVERY species of EVERY animal on the planet and put them all together in ONE big boat. AND out of the millions of people roaming the earth, only one family was worthy to survive this flood. That makes God seem pretty ruthless doesn't it? That was one of my first clues as a small child that made me sit up and take notice. I thought , THIS story does not add up. If this doesn't add up, how reliable are the rest of the stories.

Another reason I come on these boards is that I think that maybe I CAN be a help to someone else. People that have lost their way and feel alone. I feel like God is within them, if they will just try to recognize that. God is approachable and not some scarey,
intimidating authority sitting up on a throne. I don't believe that my loving god is capable of being angry and punishing like some of the bible stories tell us. If a person does not believe in God, I want them to know they it doesn't make me see them as "less than". I still believe good loving people are still good loving people. And I still believe they are in gods hands whether they know it or not.

I question the christian faith as opposed to any other faith based board because christianity is the only faith I have a background in.
I am glad you ask me this and I'll be happy to answer anything else you want to know.:)


Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I think I better understand where you are coming from now and I respect your honesty.

I wasn't brought up in Christianity (I became a Christian at 26) so I am actually coming at the whole argument of its validity from that perspective. I do think that there is much shallow teaching around which seems to cast a long shadow on the validity of Christianity. Teaching that can really inhibit the answers to our most profound questions. Even as a Christian there were experiences for me early on that forced me to ask whether some of what I was being taught made sense. Many times I found that my gut was right and other times I think I resisted things that I later found to be true through experience. There are things about the bible that at times seem implausible because I cannot seem to wrap my mind around it... but perhaps that is where I must just concede that some things are beyond my grasp. What I have in mind is suffering. Now I believe that God brings suffering into our lives for good reasons but we do not always know what the good reasons are. Some people suffer so much in this life that it's hard to understand what good can come from it. But God's ways are different from ours and as much as I'd like to think I could have done it all differently than God, I know that I am just a creature and he is my creator... I must let God be God and be the creature he made me to be.

But as I read your response, I do wonder about something and I hope you might answer this as graciously as you did my other question before. You seem to very sure of what you believe but then at the same time you did say that you are "...waiting on something to convince me that it isn't silly stuff. I would love to be persuaded..." My question is that if you already know that it is silly stuff, why would you love to be persuaded otherwise? Why not just write it off that it is silly just like Santa Claus? I'm not being facetious, I really mean that. For example, I personally believe that UFOs and the search for extraterrestrial life is silly stuff. No matter how sincere people who follow that stuff come across, I just don't find it compelling. I really won't even waste my time thinking about it because I am convinced it is silly and I would not love to be persuaded... I ain't buying it. So when I think of what you are saying in the same light, I am perplexed by your decision to sort of hang in there that there might be some validity to Christianity, provided that you hear a compelling argument. In my case, I won't even hang around the UFO chatroom hoping that someone will offer a good argument as to why I should believe it. I just don't care all that much. Why do you care?

Thank you and I look forward to your response.

From thwe Bibles perspective the answer is no. We cannot gain salvation once and keep it forever. It's sort of like a grade. AT the beginning of the year we start with an A but we can't just slack the rest of the year and keep the A. We have to maintain good grades to keep our grade. We can't be saved and then go out and engage in all that is immoral and still go to heaven.

In the Lord's Prayer Jesus taught us to pray "lead us not into temptation".
How do you interpret that?
Fred

Do not let us be tempted by satan and his angels.

Pokerface5,
When we pray that we are asking God to "lead us not into temptation"
Fred

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I think I better understand where you are coming from now and I respect your honesty.



But as I read your response, I do wonder about something and I hope you might answer this as graciously as you did my other question before. You seem to very sure of what you believe but then at the same time you did say that you are "...waiting on something to convince me that it isn't silly stuff. I would love to be persuaded..." My question is that if you already know that it is silly stuff, why would you love to be persuaded otherwise? Why not just write it off that it is silly just like Santa Claus? I'm not being facetious, I really mean that. For example, I personally believe that UFOs and the search for extraterrestrial life is silly stuff. No matter how sincere people who follow that stuff come across, I just don't find it compelling. I really won't even waste my time thinking about it because I am convinced it is silly and I would not love to be persuaded...I ain't buying it. So when I think of what you are saying in the same light, I am perplexed by your decision to sort of hang in there that there might be some validity to Christianity, provided that you hear a compelling argument. In my case, I won't even hang around the UFO chatroom hoping that someone will offer a good argument as to why I should believe it. I just don't care all that much. Why do you care?

Thank you and I look forward to your response.

Again, fair question. You compared this to your UFO beliefs. By the way, I'm with you on that. Imagine if these ufo believers were not a group that you chose to join or not join. Imagine they were people in your family that you are close to. Or your best friends that you hang out with. That they were in your everyday circles. And they referenced ufos quite frequently in conversation. Or had their ufo book open to a certain passage laying on a table year round. And they expected you to go to ufo meetings every Sunday. They expected you to make sure your children get the ufo experience too. They truly believe that if you too did not believe in ufos that an eternal punishment awaited you. Would that get on your nerves? Would it cause you to ask them if they had some sort of proof or any thing that would make their ufo book valid? Oh yeah, they give you ufo books for xmas too.


I touched on this in my earlier post. I want to be convinced so that I can let go of my opinion about my friends and family that are so fundamental. I don't like thinking that they are so "child like" in their thinking. I want to respect them more because some things that come out of their mouths just IRK me so. "It ain't pretty" what I'm feeling toward them. I want to shake them and say, wake up and smell the coffee. I ask God for more tolerance and he may be giving jt to me, but I don't seem to be using it. :o So, I guess I am here for it to make sense and to matter. And to find a grain of proof that all my teaching, and memorizing, and bible study was not done in vain.

As far as the bible goes. I don't won't to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm sure you can find words of comfort in there. There has to be something to it for it to have been around so long. I just don't find it interesting at all. When scripture is read in church, I find myself thinking, "what the he## does THAT mean? And..borrrring.

When I was engaged to my husband, we lived 4 hours apart. I would spend weekends with him or he would come and stay with me in my apartment. My mother found out what we were doing and had a hissy fit! You are not married! You are sinning! Your engagement ring means nothing, it is a joke now! I was so distraught and worried that I was going against God that I spent many hours going through the bible looking for something to make it ok that I was sleeping with my fiance. I went into a deep depression. I felt horrible. Now, the only difference in our relationship as far as commitment love, honor, respect toward each other was a signed sheet of paper vs not having signed a piece of paper, a marriage license. I did not figure it out until years later that we WERE married in Gods eyes. We already had what marriage is REALLY all about before we signed a marriage license. I was feeling all that shame and depression for nothing. I discovered this when I quit allowing other people to force their idea of morality on me and followed the truth of my own heart. btw, we will be married 29 years in Nov.

My mother believes that going to church is the be all and end all of a persons character. If someone does something bad, she will come back with, "oh I know they go to church." Like that is what defines then as a good person. Oh yeah, she had an affair on my dad, got pregnant and ended up marring the guy. They had a son together, he grew up to be a total loser so now, my mom has custody of his children. AND even as I type this right now, she allowed her grandson's girlfriend to stay over with him last night. He will be 18 this month.

What's wrong with this picture?? Does this shed anymore light on why I am the way I am?

In the Lord's Prayer Jesus taught us to pray "lead us not into temptation".
How do you interpret that?
Fred

Fred I have always admired this interpretation..


Nazarene Transliteration of the Lord's Prayer


Oh Thou, from whom the breath of life comes, who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.

May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.

Your Heavenly Domain approaches.

Let Your will come true - in the universe (all that vibrates) just as on earth (that is material and dense).

Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need, detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma) like we let go the guilt of others.

Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations), but let us be freed from that what keeps us from our true purpose.

From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.

Sealed in trust, faith and truth.

(I confirm with my entire being)

Since salvation is the work of God, "the Author and finisher of our faith" and salvation is God indwelling us. He is regenerating us through his holy spirit. We who are born again have been adopted by the Father. We could no more lose God being our spiritual father than we could deny the paternity test of our biological father.
I maybe could claim Donald Trump my father and get lines of credit and be treated like a v.i.p. for a little while but he isn't my dad and I will always drive an economical car and live in a humble abode. Many would like to claim God as their Father but where's the proof? When did they put off the old self, die to the old self, bury the old self, and then rise to walk in the newness of life as a child of the Father, certain of their heavenly home as they are certain of their heavenly Father. When they cry out in prayer do they address the father as "ABBA" which means Daddy? (Not that they HAVE to but is there relationship LIKE that?)

Homeslice,

AMEN to that! :)

We who are born again have been adopted by the Father. We could no more lose God being our spiritual father than we could deny the paternity test of our biological father.

We can, however reject our salvation just as we can reject our relationship and our inheritance from our paternal father, just as scripture says has happened a number of times.

Also keep in mind that God has only one begotten Son - we who are saved are adopted sons.

cozyk and Jakester,
I believe in UFO's because I have seen several.
However, I do not believe that they are from other worlds.
I just wonder what the heck they are. Each one is a mystery to me that needs to be solved if possible.
So in that way I know where you are coming from.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

If you are born of the Spirit, reborn, born again, you cannot then reject God because you have God living in you. If one rejects God, it is the old man doing the rejecting and thus proving the old man hasn't died and therefore there has been no actual rebirth. Judas never received the Holy Spirit and though he lived closely with Jesus and "faked" following Him so well that when Jesus said, "one of you will betray me." The other disciples all looked around and wondered who it could be or even if it was they themselves!
The Bible says we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is "Gods' downpayment" so to speak on as proof that the Redeemer will redeem us.

If you are born of the Spirit, reborn, born again, you cannot then reject God because you have God living in you.

Scripture says it differently. Scripture says that if you are a partaker of the Holy Spirit (same phrase use in 2 Peter 1:4 to describe the indwelling), and then turn away, then it is impossible to return because that would be crucifying Jesus again.

Heb 6:3-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV


If one rejects God, it is the old man doing the rejecting and thus proving the old man hasn't died and therefore there has been no actual rebirth. Judas never received the Holy Spirit and though he lived closely with Jesus and "faked" following Him so well that when Jesus said, "one of you will betray me." The other disciples all looked around and wondered who it could be or even if it was they themselves!
The Bible says we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is "Gods' downpayment" so to speak on as proof that the Redeemer will redeem us.

Judas could not have received the Holy Spirit in any case. The gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit did not happen until the ascension of Jesus into heaven. But the fact that Judas was faking it (which we agree upon), does not in any way prove that a person cannot be saved and subsequently reject their salvation.

Scripture says that those who are saved are freed from bondage, and yet what you are saying is that those who are unsaved (described as slaves in scripture) are free to be able to receive Jesus as Saviour, and those who are saved (described as free or bondservants) have their freedom of decision removed.

Homeslice,

AMEN to that! :)

T - that is too funny... although I bet Jeff has no idea what homeslice means, judging by his age... no offense, Jeff, but I think you are probably more a throwback to the James Dean or Bob Dylan era. Care to comment?

homesell,
What makes you think that Judas never received the Holy Spirit?
Can you prove that?

Fred

Jakester - The old Jeff is 56. The new Jeff is will be 40 this summer. Old enough not to care if someone calls me a different name than what they know is my username.
Arcura - If Judas had received the Holy Spirit he could not have been lost. The Spirit isn't given like a revolving door where you are saved one day, lost the next, saved the next day, lost the next and so on. John 17:11-12 makes it clear what happened to Judas and why the others didn't fall away while Jesus was with them.
TJ3- There is a big difference between tasting food and eating a meal that stays in you. This is like some marquees in front of churches asking people to "try" Jesus as if he was a vitamin or some new therapy. People do not "try" the Lord. They may go to church and give money and do good works and think they are experiencing Christianity when all they are doing is what they see others who claim to be christians doing. And you're right. I AM saying the decision is not ours. Look up the word chosen in your concordance and you will see the numerous times God says we didn't choose Him but that He chose us. If God chose us, which he did, we cannot "opt out" from salvation. Anyone that "opts out" probably did choose God but God (for His own purposes) did not choose them.

Arcura - If Judas had received the Holy Spirit he could not have been lost.

Judas could not have received the Holy Spirit because Jesus had not yet given it to them:

John 20:19-23
19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 Now when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
NKJV

As to whether they could have ceased to be saved afterward, that is circular reasoning because scripture does not tell us anywhere that one who have received the Holy Spirit cannot subsequently reject Him.


TJ3- There is a big difference between tasting food and eating a meal that stays in you.

Interesting - I did not focus on the word taste, but I notice that everyone who is challenged with this passage always gives that same response. First, note that the people who turned away from God had been partakers of the Holy Spirit, the same words used to describe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in 2 Peter 1:4.


I AM saying the decision is not ours. Look up the word chosen in your concordance and you will see the numerous times God says we didn't choose Him but that He chose us.

I have indeed studied this, and you will find that numerous times in scripture that we chose Him also. The truth is that it works both ways. To try to say that we have no decision is not scriptural and to say that it is all our decision is also unscriptural.

Since scripture says we were chosen before the foundation of the world(which is obviously before we were ever born) How is it our choice. John the Baptist had no choice since he was given the holy spirit while still in his mothers womb. Any choice we think we have is because of God arranging our circumstances to bring us to him. I and many others look back at when we were saved and will tell you that if the circumstances that happened to them had happened in any other way or at any other time, they wouldn't have "made a decision" for Christ. I know not everyone thinks that but a good percentage do and possibly the others haven't really given it much thought.

Jakester, you ask for a follow up explanation and I gave you one. Did my answer satisfy your question.

I have to say that all I've seen lately is more disagreement over what scripture REALLY means. Am I the only one that sees, that if interpretation is up for grabs, then stating something as fact is useless?

Jakester - The old Jeff is 56. The new Jeff is will be 40 this summer. Old enough not to care if someone calls me a different name than what they know is my username.
Arcura - If Judas had recieved the Holy Spirit he could not have been lost. The Spirit isn't given like a revolving door where you are saved one day, lost the next, saved the next day, lost the next and so on. John 17:11-12 makes it clear what happened to Judas and why the others didn't fall away while Jesus was with them.
TJ3- There is a big difference between tasting food and eating a meal that stays in you. This is like some marquees in front of churches asking people to "try" Jesus as if he was a vitamin or some new therapy. People do not "try" the Lord. They may go to church and give money and do good works and think they are experiencing Christianity when all they are doing is what they see others who claim to be christians doing. and you're right. I AM saying the decision is not ours. Look up the word chosen in your concordance and you will see the numerous times God says we didn't choose Him but that He chose us. If God chose us, which he did, we cannot "opt out" from salvation. Anyone that "opts out" probably did choose God but God (for His own purposes) did not choose them.

JEFF,

Homeslice was meant to be cute.. funny. Guess you have to get to know me. I agree with the term "tasted" being totally different from eating and digesting... you taste something to try it. I don't just "TASTE" cheesecake. I have "tasted" buttermilk... no thank YOU! ;)

P.S tj3, don't EVEN think about giving me a reddie for that... lest I come to one of your conferences and boo you... hee hee ( teasing;))

Jakester, you ask for a follow up explanation and I gave you one. Did my answer satisfy your question.

I have to say that all I've seen lately is more disagreement over what scripture REALLY means. Am I the only one that sees, that if interpretation is up for grabs, then stating something as fact is useless?

Cozyk,

I wish we agreed on everything.. but we don't. I agree with almost everything tj3 has said and so far with everything that Jakester has said... but when I stand before God, I will give an account for ME! It won't matter if I disagreed with anyone... what will matter to the LORD is what I did with truth. Did I blow it off and say... it doesn't work anyhow because someone who calls himself a Christian doesn't act like it? Please. The question is still there for YOU... what will YOU do the Christ? Stop looking at Christains! Or so "called christians" they are NOT the standard.

Let me tell you what... if I am the standard for my kids... than THEY are in BIG trouble... I try to be the standard but I still have this old FLESH. It still rears it's ugly head... and I have a choice.. go wth it or DIE to it. Most of the time... my new man wins... but not always.

Jakester, you ask for a follow up explanation and I gave you one. Did my answer satisfy your question.

I have to say that all I've seen lately is more disagreement over what scripture REALLY means. Am I the only one that sees, that if interpretation is up for grabs, then stating something as fact is useless?

cozyk - yes, it did... I've been away fishing this weekend and haven't had time to respond yet. No, I think you painted a very clear picture of where you are coming from and I appreciate your honesty.

To quote Oasis "there are many things that I, would like to say to you but I don't know how." I'd like to think that I could offer you some thoughts on the many things you spoke of but then the reality is that I know better... you've lived your life and have had your share of experiences that have brought you to the conclusions you've come to and that's not going to change. Some young guy like me is not going to "move" you and give you some compelling argument for anything because I think at this point in the game, you are pretty well dug in... if you know what I mean. In other words, you're mind is made up.

But all the same, I appreciate another human being engaging in self-reflective honesty about where she is coming from. To me I think that is rare because often times—in my experience—people feel that Christianity is silly and stupid but don't have the guts to on record about that fact. At least you did that.

Lastly, cozyk, the debate going on in this thread shows disagreements about interpretation but there are many people here who also agree on biblical matters... people who've never even met each other before and yet they share similar perspectives. To me, as much as there are differences to be observed with Christians and their understanding of the bible, etc. the fact that they have anything in common relative to faith is compelling. All I am saying is that if you are to be observationally honest, you will have to note that, yes, there have been disagreements here; but there have also been a lot of agreements. That is important.

It comes so naturally to us to be critical of each other... I don't think we need to work at that or be challenged to do better. But a great deal of character is required to point out the good in the things we observe because to not do so is unwise.

Respectfully.

Right Jakester. People should know that we don't stop loving someone just because they disagree. I can't imagine anyone being closer to each other than my wife and I are to each other yet we certainly disagree on different doctrinal issues. Not the essentials of the faith but the peripheral stuff that is open to interpretation. The truth is, not every doctrine is clear cut one way or the other and no one person has a corner on the truth or is right about every or even most, things.

ClassyT - no offense was taken. I still don't have a clue as to what homeslice means which is probably why I didn't get the joke.

Since scripture says we were chosen before the foundation of the world(which is obviously before we were ever born) How is it our choice.

This is what I spoke about earlier. When we start making it a "before" or "after" after, we heffectively say that God is trapped in the timeline along with His creation. But God is outside of time, so He did not do anything before or after us. It is like Jesus said - "Before Abraham was, I* AM". Jesus, being God, is outside of time, and though Abraham was in the past from our perspective, for Jesus it is the present because there is no timeline.

So did God make the decision before us, or after us? Neither. The interaction between when we made our decision and when God chose us is something that we cannot possibly comprehend because cannot understand what it is like to be outside of time. But what we do know is that God chose us, and we chose Him. Both are scriptural.

JEFF,
Homeslice was meant to be cute..funny. guess ya have to get to know me. I agree with the term "tasted" being totally different from eating and digesting...you taste something to try it. I don't just "TASTE" cheesecake. I have "tasted" buttermilk...no thank YOU! ;)

P.S tj3, don't EVEN think about givin me a reddie for that...lest i come to one of your conferences and boo ya...hee hee ( teasing;))

Tess,

I would not dare give you a reddie for that! But you are welcome to come to a conference. We have a smaller 1 day soming up in a couple of weeks on cults and false teachings.

As for taste, let's see if your usage of the word taste holds us.

Matt 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27, John 8:52 - Speaks of tasting "death". Is it referring to dying or not?

Heb 2:9 says that Jesus tasted death - did He die or not?

Lastly, whatever we know of having a relationship with God is only a taste of what it will be in eternity.

Tom

Yes, God is outside of time. He is not on a linear time continuum. His creation is as all of matter is subject to time. A plain and simple reading of the scripture says We were chosen before the foundation of the world. I think that tells us when. Just as in creation it says on the first day, on the second day, etc. God was not on a timeline then or now but we are still told when he did things. Thanks for your input.

Yes, God is outside of time. He is not on a linear time continuum.

We agree.


His creation is as all of matter is subject to time.

We agree.


A plain and simple reading of the scripture says We were chosen before the foundation of the world. I think that tells us when.

Think of it this way.

Draw a line on a page of paper. The far left end of the line is creation. The far right end is the final judgment and the start of our life with God in eternity. The middle of the line is the death and resurrection of Christ on the cross. Our lives start and end at points along this line. We live on that timeline. We can look at what is to the left as having happened and as being behind us in time; and what is on the right hand as being that which is to happen.

When we discuss salvation, we speak of what happened before and what happened after. We know no other framework of existence. But God looks at events in time the way that we look down on that time. He sees eternity past and he sees eternity future all at the same time. He see the time before the creation of the world, the time at the cross, the time when we were born, when we we received Christ as Saviour, the time when we will die, and the final judgment all at the same "time" just as we see that whole timeline.

Thus when we read that He chose us before the foundations of the earth, that is right, just as it is right when scripture speaks of us choosing Him.

From God's perspective, did the decision of His to choose us happen before or after our decision to accept Christ as Saviour? No, He sees them both occurring at the same "time". Notice that we cannot discuss this without talking about time before we cannot comprehend being outside of time.

It is true that God chose us before the foundation of the world. Just as it is true that Chose God:

Josh 24:21-23
22 So Joshua said to the people, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD for yourselves, to serve Him." And they said, "We are witnesses!" 23 Now therefore," he said, "put away the foreign gods which are among you, and incline your heart to the LORD God of Israel."
NKJV

How do we reconcile these two things?

We know that God predestined us, and we know that God chose us base upon His foreknowledge?

1 Peter 1:1-2
1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
NKJV

How do we reconcile these two things?

In both cases, we cannot reconcile them. We know both are true, and we know that both, from God's perspective are happening before Him even now, as He looks down upon the whole timeline.

homesell,
I understand what you are saying.
You are quite clear, but I still believe that under certain circumstances a person can loose their salvation.
God chose Judas to be a follower of Jesus and he was but his over zealousness for a conquering king was his undoing.
Where Judas receive the Holy Spirit or not I do not know, but I suspect that you might be right.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

homesell,
I understand what you are saying.
You are quite clear, but I still believe that under certain circumstances a person can loose their salvation.
God chose Judas to be a follower of Jesus and he was but his over zealousness for a conquering king was his undoing.
Where Judas receive the Holy Spirit or not I do not know, but I suspect that you might be right.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

The word "lose" typically means to have misplaced something, not knowing when you lost it or where. Applied to salvation, this wcould mean that a person ceases to be saved without knowing it. Scripture is quite clear that that cannot happen, for example:

John 10:29-30
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV

Scripture does say that there are those who fall from the faith, and in that case, they must knowingly choose to leave their salvation. They did not "lose" it.

Tom

Tj3,
I have had my say on this matter and earlier on listed how a person can loses there salvation.
I intend to stand by what I believe the bible and Jesus tells me.
Thanks anyway.
Fred

Fred,
You should always stand by what you believe the Bible and Jesus tells you - but continue in looking at things from a different perspective. "One man sharpens another as iron sharpens iron". These questions and answers helps us to strengthen and clarify what we believe about things the Bible isn't clear on and, as TJ3 pointed out there are paradox in the Bible. Like we are pre-destined AND we choose, like Jesus created his own Mama, He gave life to those that killed him, Very God lives inside us yet we still find ourselves sinning either in thought word or deed.

Tj3,
I have had my say on this matter and earlier on listed how a person can loses there salvation.
I intend to stand by what I believe the bible and Jesus tells me.
Thanks anyway.
Fred

Fred,

Can you show me in scripture where it says that a person can be saved and unknowingly become unsaved?

Fred,

Can you show me in scripture where it says that a person can be saved and unknowingly become unsaved?

Tj3,
Do you feel Paul's word of the fear in those who could be beguiled, and yet were as chaste virgin to Christ is an example. According to what is written all are saved by the grace of God if they believe, all were set free from the bondage of sin or the curse in which Adam caused. Christ was sent so that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Not accepting Christ is a rejection of salvation brought to us.


2 Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

For the grace of God comes to every man

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

So deception from His grace that brought salvation is likely for those who don't deny themselves, and follow Christ in righteousness. This can be consider a double minded person wanting to live their life in lust and sin, but feel they are saved by Christ because they believe in HIM. Where faith without works is dead.

Or someone that believes in Christ yet their are beguiled by enticing good appearance of false teaching. Unknowingly destroyed by lack of knowledge of the truth, and not hearing HIS voice which is the simplicity of Christ.

ClassyT - no offense was taken. I still don't have a clue as to what homeslice means which is probably why I didn't get the joke.

Oh.. it is a "urban" term... meaning a homie... or a friend. It is silly really but it was meant in a good spirit because I found myself agreeing with you. So I called you homeslice. Besides my boys come in calling me that and asking "homeslice whats for dinner". It is funny, stupid and silly and it always makes me smile.:)

Tess,

I would not dare give you a reddie for that!! But you are welcome to come to a conference. We have a smaller 1 day soming up in a couple of weeks on cults and false teachings.

As for taste, let's see if your usage of the word taste holds us.

Matt 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27, John 8:52 - Speaks of tasting "death". Is it referring to dying or not?

Heb 2:9 says that Jesus tasted death - did He die or not?

Lastly, whatever we know of having a relationship with God is only a taste of what it will be in eternity.

Tom

I thought a lot about this. Jesus did taste death but he didn't stay dead... he "tasted" it but was alive the third day and alive forever more. Not at ALL like when we die... is it?

Tj3,
I have previously posted here from the bible how a person can lose their salvation.
Why ask me to do it again?
If you don't believe it then go ahead a reject God and see what happens to you or refuse to forgive others.
I case you never noticed one must be forgiven to to to heaven and Jesus says that IF you don't forgive others you will not be forgiven.
Fred

Tj3,
I have previously posted here from the bible how a person can lose their salvation.
Why ask me to do it again?

Fred,

You have never shown a verse which shows that a person can unknowingly cease to be saved.


If you don't believe it then go ahead a reject God and see what happens to you or refuse to forgive others.

If I chose to reject God, that would be a deliberate rejection of God and my salvation, and it would be knowingly rejecting God. I agree that we can cease to be saved by doing so. But I disagree that we can lose (unknowingly) our salvation.

I thought alot about this. Jesus did taste death but he didn't stay dead...he "tasted" it but was alive the third day and alive forever more. Not at ALL like when we die....is it?

So He was actually dead and then ceased to be dead.

Just like when people are saved, and then reject their salvation and cease to be saved.

See what I mean?

Tj3.
Yes SOME people were saved later were not.
Fred

If the Holy Spirit of God is in you, you are born again, you are walking in the spirit, you are a new person, you are not under law but under grace, you are following in the steps of Jesus, it is no longer you that live but Christ that lives in you and it is in Christ we live and move and have our being. Such a person cannot willfully reject Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit for they are all living inside the person and the old man is dead. There is no such thing as a "carnal christian" one who lives by the flesh yet professes to believe. Many that "reject God" after tasting of the spirit were never born again. They simply went through the motions and acted as they believe God wanted them to act and how they saw other Christians acting. That is the problem, it was all acting, and when the curtain comes down at the end of the day, the pseudo believer knows deep in their heart they are just a wannabe Christian. When they realize they really don't have a relationship with God, they think they did everything the way they were supposed to and it didn't work so they reject him. Or they thought becoming a Christian would enable them to "have their best life now" and when God doesn't "work for them" they reject. Many other reasons but the main one is they don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are born of the Spirit, will return to the Father at death, are currently seated in the heavenlies, that God in all three persons is indwelling them and that we are here on earth for the purpose of letting the love of God flow to others.

So He was actually dead and then ceased to be dead.

Just like when people are saved, and then reject their salvation and cease to be saved.

See what I mean?

Yes, I see what you mean BUT I am NOT ready to conceed yet. I have a sneaking suspicion that you have agrued this before... I need to study this out better... in the words of Arnie... I'll be back.:p

yes, i see what you mean BUT i am NOT ready to conceed yet. I have a sneaking suspicion that you have agrued this before....I need to study this out better...in the words of Arnie....I'll be back.:p

I look forward to your return!

Jeff,
I understand what you are saying, but under the conditions that I mentioned I still believe that a person can lose their salvation.
People can be very flexible do to various conditions and happenings as live proceeds on.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Jeff,
I understand what you are saying, but under the conditions that I mentioned I still believe that a person can lose their salvation.
People can be very flexible do to various conditions and happenings as live proceeds on.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

How do you harmonize your view that it is possible for a person to cease being saved without their knowledge with this declaration of assurance of security of our salvation?


John 10:29-30
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV

Tj3,
I have said that. I use what the bible tells us about being saved.
I mentioned two conditions that a person can fall into that will cause them to lose their salvation.
Those are what I believe to be so and stand by.
Fred

Tj3,
I have said that. I use what the bible tells us about being saved.
I mentioned two conditions that a person can fall into that will cause them to lose their salvation.
Those are what I believe to be so and stand by.
Fred

Fred,

I am interested in how you harmonize your view with what scripture says regarding Jesus' assurance that our salvation cannot be snatched from us.

Tj3,
I am interested in your answer to my question IF you ever decide to answer it.
Fred.

Fred.
TJ3 DID answer your question as did I. John 3:3-9 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"

Nicodemus thought Jesus was referring to a rebirth in the fleshly manner(which is very watery and the semen itself is 90% water) but Jesus clears it up for Him by saying one must be born of the water and of the spirit and then states plainly that what is born of flesh IS flesh, that which is born of spirit IS spirit. We ALL have been born of water, we have NOT all been born of the spirit.

Nicodemus thought Jesus was referring to a rebirth in the fleshly manner(which is very watery and the semen itself is 90% water) but Jesus clears it up for Him by saying one must be born of the water and of the spirit and then states plainly that what is born of flesh IS flesh, that which is born of spirit IS spirit. We ALL have been born of water, we have NOT all been born of the spirit.

homesell, I don't follow what you are saying as fact from scripture, and I would hope Tom agrees that it has nothing to do with semen..

Fred perhaps what scripture does say can help. And I trust Tom will agree.

Nicodemus ask how one could be born again.(How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?)

Jesus answer was (3:5 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. )

Born of water takes place at the time of birth from the mother's womb. God has provided this as nourishment in many ways. We can read of God's enlightment taking place for some at this time in the womb. Scripture is telling us that from the womb comes man who is born of water, and shall be called holy by the Lord. That is how a new born baby is nourished by God from birth. (innocent) and also why a baby need not be baptized at birth.

Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)

However (John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.)

This is being born again by the Spirit of Life where Christ dwells in you. So we do indeed have two births. The second birth is at the older age as Nicodemus referenced. When man is able to confess his faith and follow willingly the path of righteousness.

Thanks Sndbay,
I think we said the same thing. If not, what you said is what I meant and what I said is what I meant.
"They" won't let me rate you or TJ3 till I "spread it around" some more.

John 3:3-9 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"

The Greek text is about being born anothen,which in a free translation means , being born from above and not being born again.

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Sounds to me like they could lose their salvation if by that you mean the Kingdom of Heaven!

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Sounds to me like they could lose their salvation if by that you mean the Kingdom of Heaven!

Hi adam7gur,

These verses are John being shown the works of the seven candlesticks. Those candlesticks are seven churches(Revel 1:20) And this message is confirming that one of the churches has left their first love (God the love above all else). Althought they teach the fault of evil, they, themselves says they know the apostles but call them liers by: (probably by not following the apostles direction in gospel and tradisions.) Man today make up their own tradisions which makes void the word of God. Also in doing so God says they have left HIS Word which is what the scripture say is God from the beginning, and was made flesh in Christ. They are doing this all in HIS name sake.

So yes this church (members of a fellowship)could lose their salvation in Christ, when they leave HIM for their own prideful ways. They must repent !

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

WOW This thread is long. Do we not have a definitive answer yet?

WOW This thread is long. Do we not have a definitive answer yet?

The depth and fullness of God is never ending.. The same for HIS love... It is wonderful to speak of HIS Word and all He sent to us.

In that, perhaps not to your question. The all knowing God has more, and is endless.

In that, perhaps not to your question. The all knowing God has more, and is endless.[/QUOTE]

I don't understand that part.:confused:

WOW This thread is long. Do we not have a definitive answer yet?

perhaps NOT.. it's endless

homesell,
Sorry Jeff,
That verse DOES NOT clearly say that flesh is water. To claim that Jesus said that looks like a purposeful twist of scripture to mean something else.
Flesh is flesh and water is water, just like apples are apples, and fish are fish.
Flesh is born of flesh (woman) but in baptism a person is born of spirit.
There is clearly a huge difference there.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred.
TJ3 DID answer your question as did I. John 3:3-9 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"

Nicodemus thought Jesus was referring to a rebirth in the fleshly manner(which is very watery and the semen itself is 90% water) but Jesus clears it up for Him by saying one must be born of the water and of the spirit and then states plainly that what is born of flesh IS flesh, that which is born of spirit IS spirit. We ALL have been born of water, we have NOT all been born of the spirit.

That is it exactly.

Tj3,
That is twisting scripture so say something is does NOT say.
Flesh is born of flesh (woman) to be born again is to be born of water and spirit (from above).
Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit they are NOT the same and neither is flesh water.
Fred

Tj3,
That is twisting scripture so say something is does NOT say.
Flesh is born of flesh (woman) to be born again is to be born of water and spirit (from above).
Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit they are NOT the same and neither is flesh water.
Fred

Let's look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Jesus speaks of two things:

1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit

Then he speaks of two things again:

1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.

The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.

Answer me this:

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:

Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?

Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?

Tj3,
I looked at it and studies it and I stand my what I said.
I do NOT agree with your interpretation of it.
Fred

homesell,
Sorry Jeff,
That verse DOES NOT clearly say that flesh is water. To claim that Jesus said that looks like a purposeful twist of scripture to mean something else.
Flesh is flesh and water is water, just like apples are apples, and fish are fish.
Flesh is born of flesh (woman) but in baptism a person is born of spirit.
There is clearly a huge difference there.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I'm with you Fred.Also we seem to forget that Jesus is , as He said to the Samaritan woman, the Water of Life!

Answer me this:

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NKJV

Scripture says that there is but one essential baptism amongst Christians. So my question, Fred, is this:

Do you consider water baptism essential and the Holy Spirit optional?

Or is the Holy Spirit essential and water baptism optional?

Tom
Could't those two be one?
I mean after all, we see in our faith one and two being a matter of faith, like the unity of the Father and the Son or the unity of man and woman.
I am just throwing another point of view here, nothing more!

Fred,
You accuse us of twisting scriptures. TJ3 and I are telling you we believe the scripture is clear what Jesus is saying.
You say Jesus is talking about water baptism when Nicodemus never asked about it or mentioned it, or maybe even knew about it. Jesus himself said he didn't come to baptize with water.
It is the baptism of the spirit(being filled with the spirit) that is the spiritual birth from above and causes us to be reborn and be saved. Not any man-made ritual.
In John 19 8-10 Jesus meets Zacchaeus and says, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham." Jesus didn't say salvation has come because this man has been baptized or will be baptized.
When people were healed and then told to report to the priest to let them see that they had been healed, they didn't go to the priest to BE healed. They went to the priest because they already WERE healed.

Examine the way Israelites were saved from the Egyptians through the waters of the sea.The baptism in water symbolizes also the crossing of the waters of the sea.Still the Israelites had to follow the Lord in the desert to make it to the promised land,just like we are baptized in water to declare that we no longer are under the World,but we follow our Lord to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven.
We are saved by baptism in water but that is not entering the Kingdom of Heaven, it is only being saved from the World and its master.
The thief that was crucified with Jesus,made it to Heaven although he was not baptized.The World still had authourity on him and the World judged him and his penalty was... death!

Note that it was "the red sea" or sea of blood. Just as the blood of Christ washes away our sins. Adam7gur you say yourself that "the baptism in water symbolizes." Doesn't that mean that water baptism is symbolic? You talk about "make it to the kingdom of heaven". Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it sounds like you're saying by being baptized you are declaring that from now on you will try to follow Jesus to "make it" to the kingdom of heaven. That sounds like "works" on your part.
"It is by grace you are saved through faith and not of works lest any man should boast."
"You are not under law but under Grace"
"For no man shall be saved by the works of the Law.

Note that it was "the red sea" or sea of blood. Just as the blood of Christ washes away our sins. Adam7gur you say yourself that "the baptism in water symbolizes." Doesn't that mean that water baptism is symbolic? You talk about "make it to the kingdom of heaven". Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it sounds like you're saying by being baptized you are declaring that from now on you will try to follow Jesus to "make it" to the kingdom of heaven. That sounds like "works" on your part.
"It is by grace you are saved through faith and not of works lest any man should boast."
"You are not under law but under Grace"
"For no man shall be saved by the works of the Law.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

God sent HIS SON

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

If we do not walk in righteousness we walk in sin of the flesh as filthy rags

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, "if "so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now "if" any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Tom
Could't those two be one?
I mean after all, we see in our faith one and two being a matter of faith, like the unity of the Father and the Son or the unity of man and woman.
I am just throwing another point of view here, nothing more!

No, they could not. The Holy Spirit is not water. One can be symbolic of the other, but they are not the same.

Examine the way Israelites were saved from the Egyptians through the waters of the sea.The baptism in water symbolizes also the crossing of the waters of the sea.Still the Israelites had to follow the Lord in the desert to make it to the promised land,just like we are baptized in water to declare that we no longer are under the World,but we follow our Lord to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Let me repeat your words.

"The baptism in water symbolizes also...."

Yes! The water in baptism symbolizes - that is the point. Past that we can look at symbolic parallels, but the point is that it is symbolic.


We are saved by baptism in water but that is not entering the Kingdom of Heaven, it is only being saved from the World and its master.

The biggest problem with this is that scripture does not tell us that it is water that saves us but rather the blood that was sacrificed on the cross for our sins.


The thief that was crucified with Jesus,made it to Heaven although he was not baptized.The World still had authourity on him and the World judged him and his penalty was... death!

So you are saying that there have been two ways to be saved - one through Christ and baptism and another without water, which is..? - Please describe this second way to be saved through which the thief was saved.

If you are saying that his physical death was required because he was not baptized, you ought to visit a funeral home - it happens to us all, baptized or not.

The biggest problem with this is that scripture does not tell us that it is water that saves us but rather the blood that was sacrificed on the cross for our sins.

It is the faith in Christ that SAVES us.. the fulfill law of faith to answer HIS calling. HIS blood set us free from the curse of sin, and brought us HIS righteousness.

The calling to salvation is based on LORD one Faith one Baptism (Eph 4:5)

Does it REALLY matter? All of this is symbolic. Isn't it the authenticity of the spirit,(that is no secret to God )that really matters. All these other particulars are much ado about nothing. Splitting hairs, I'd say.

Note that it was "the red sea" or sea of blood. Just as the blood of Christ washes away our sins. Adam7gur you say yourself that "the baptism in water symbolizes." Doesn't that mean that water baptism is symbolic? You talk about "make it to the kingdom of heaven". Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it sounds like you're saying by being baptized you are declaring that from now on you will try to follow Jesus to "make it" to the kingdom of heaven. That sounds like "works" on your part.
"It is by grace you are saved through faith and not of works lest any man should boast."
"You are not under law but under Grace"
"For no man shall be saved by the works of the Law.

Jeff
Yes it is grace by we are saved just as by grace the Israelites were saved by the Egyptians.
Jesus said that the whole law is included in loving God and our neighbour.
That is work to me 'cause someone has to prove his love.
If I want to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven , I have to love God and my neighbour.That is my work.
Following God is our work just like the Israelites had to do in the desert.They had to follow God and by following Him they would all have made it to the promised land!
Walking in the desert is work and that's one of the ways they proved their love for God!

Jeff
Yes it is grace by we are saved just as by grace the Israelites were saved by the Egyptians.
Jesus said that the whole law is included in loving God and our neighbour.
That is work to me 'cause someone has to prove his love.
If I want to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven , I have to love God and my neighbour.That is my work.
Following God is our work just like the Israelites had to do in the desert.They had to follow God and by following Him they would all have made it to the promised land!
Walking in the desert is work and that's one of the ways they prooved their love for God!

I agree with Adam its not through the grace of jesus we are saved it is the grace within us that saves us. Jesus just came to show us the way it is up to us to apply his teaching.
The parting of the red sea is a very good example of grace. As the Isrealites where cornored by the Egyptians they called unto God, and his response was why are you calling me, you have all you need within you.
Everything we need to obtain our salvation is alrady within us

Black ink is adam7gur - blue ink is homesell
Jesus said that the whole law is included in loving God and our neighbour.
That is work to me 'cause someone has to prove his love.
The theif on the cross did not "prove" his love by doing anything but believing. If I repent of my sins and the saving grace of God comes into me and then I die in a car accident hours later, I haven't proved my love other than by believing.
If I want to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven , I have to love God and my neighbour.That is my work.
Why do you keep saying "make it" to the kingdom of heaven when the Holy spirit within us is our assurance that God will save us?
Yes, we will (not have to) love God and our neighbor when we are saved. That is not our "work" Jesus said our "work"(singular) "is to believe on Him who the Father sent."
Following God is our work just like the Israelites had to do in the desert.They had to follow God and by following Him they would all have made it to the promised land!
They walked in the dessert for forty years because they disobeyed God and were not allowed to see the promised land
Walking in the desert is work and that's one of the ways they proved their love for God!
Like they had a choice? They whined and complained and asked to go back into slavery the whole time. Joshua and Caleb were the only two that got to actually enter into the promised land because they were faithful. Even Moses, because he messed up with the rock/water thing was only permitted to see the promised land from afar.

It is the faith in Christ that SAVES us.. the fulfill law of faith to answer HIS calling. HIS blood set us free from the curse of sin, and brought us HIS righteousness.

The calling to salvation is based on LORD one Faith one Baptism (Eph 4:5)

Right.

Now that we agree that it is the blood that saves us, is that one baptism water (making the Holy Spirit optional), or the baptism of the Holy Spirit (making water optional)?

Right.

Now that we agree that it is the blood that saves us, is that one baptism water (making the Holy Spirit optional), or the baptism of the Holy Spirit (making water optional)?

Faith SAVES us = an answered call to salvation = Faith in Christ

2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

or is there delusion in wanting to be filthy rags?

2 Th 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

**************************************

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

HIS Body and Blood set us free from sin, baptism is within of spirit

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

************************************

Matthew 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
( one Faith, one Baptism, One Lord )

*****************************************
Establish the law of Faith:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:26)

That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, (Eph 3:17)

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (Romans 3:27)

Oh brother... That's all. Oh brother...

What I was saying id that it looked like twisting Scripture to me.
The reason being is that the passage does not clearly say the water is flesh.
To me it says that man is born of flesh though woman.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

What I was saying id that it looked like twisting Scripture to me.
The reason being is that the passage does not clearly say the water is flesh.
To me it says that man is born of flesh though woman.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

You need to read it without forcing it to bend to your denomination's teachings. What is the topic? Being born twice, once of a woman and then being born again when you are saved. So this speaks of two birth. You will not find baptism spoken of even once in this part of scripture.

So with that in mind that it speaks of births and not of baptism, let's look at it again:

John 3:4
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
NKJV

Notice, Nicodemus is talking about two births - one of a woman and the subsequent re-birth when we are saved.

So Jesus says:

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
NKJV

Born of water (birth #1 of a woman) and born of Spirit (birth #2 when we are saved).

Fred - are you aware of the term of what happens when a woman goes into labour - her water breaks - do you know why that term is used? You might want to look it up, or ask a woman.

Then Jesus says as a matter of explanation, using Jewish parallelism:

John 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
NKJV

water = flesh
Spirit = Spirit

Baptism is not mentioned. By bring that into it, you are altering (or to use your word - "twisting") what it actually says.

We can verify that it has nothing to do with baptism by looking where else being born again is mention, which is here:

1 Peter 1:22-25
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because
"All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever."
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
NKJV

Note that the re-birth of salvation comes from the word of God, not baptism.

Now if you think that the topic here is baptism and not the being born again, would you please show us where baptism is mention in this discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus?

Sorry Tom, do not see it that way
I see it that flesh is born of flesh and to be born again requires water.
Fred

Black ink is adam7gur - blue ink is homesell
Jesus said that the whole law is included in loving God and our neighbour.
That is work to me 'cause someone has to prove his love.
The theif on the cross did not "prove" his love by doing anything but believing. If I repent of my sins and the saving grace of God comes into me and then I die in a car accident hours later, I haven't proved my love other than by believing.
If I want to make it to the Kingdom of Heaven , I have to love God and my neighbour.That is my work.
Why do you keep saying "make it" to the kingdom of heaven when the Holy spirit within us is our assurance that God will save us?
Yes, we will (not have to) love God and our neighbor when we are saved. That is not our "work" Jesus said our "work"(singular) "is to believe on Him who the Father sent."
Following God is our work just like the Israelites had to do in the desert.They had to follow God and by following Him they would all have made it to the promised land!
They walked in the dessert for forty years because they disobeyed God and were not allowed to see the promised land
Walking in the desert is work and that's one of the ways they prooved their love for God!
Like they had a choice? They whined and complained and asked to go back into slavery the whole time. Joshua and Caleb were the only two that got to actually enter into the promised land because they were faithful. Even Moses, because he messed up with the rock/water thing was only permitted to see the promised land from afar.

Not many people are in the same position as the thief was.The majority of us have a lot of time in front of us and we could take take both ways if we like.The way of God , or not.
What about all the others?Did they not work for the gospel or did they just believe? And what is believing?Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Believing is obeying!
I keep telling ''make it to the kingdom of Heaven'' because Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
If the Israelites obeyed God they would all have made it much sooner.
Again , obeying is the key word!

.

We can verify that it has nothing to do with baptism by looking where else being born again is mention, which is here:
[I]
1 Peter 1:22-25
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because
"All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever."
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.


Proven that baptism is to be born again of the spirit

Salvation is to raise from the dead as Christ raised. So the resurrection of the dead was sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption. By Adam came death, by Christ came the resurrection of death. (Reference 1 Cr 15)

1 Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Which takes us back to: Baptism and HIS hand of fire

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in HIS hand, and He will thoroughly purge HIS floor, and gather HIS wheat into the garner; but HE will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Right sndbay.

adam7gur,
We are almost saying the same thing. The difference is that when we believe (cling to, adhere to, rely on)in Jesus, walking in the spirit and newness of life, we don't "have to do"anything. We will "love to do" as the Father does all he does in love and not because he has to.
For example, my wife never asks me to do anything around the house so there is nothing I have to do. However, I do many things around the house because I love her and the things I do show or prove I love her. If I didn't do them, then it would be doubtful I really loved her. It also is true, I never ask her to do anything either, so when things get done, I know it's because she loves me. She doesn't "have to" do them. Each knows what is done makes the others life more pleasant, and shows love, respect and honor. What a miserable marriage it would be if either of us thought we had to do something to keep the relationship going.

Right sndbay.

adam7gur,
We are almost saying the same thing. The difference is that when we believe (cling to, adhere to, rely on)in Jesus, walking in the spirit and newness of life, we don't "have to do"anything. We will "love to do" as the Father does all he does in love and not because he has to.
For example, my wife never asks me to do anything around the house so there is nothing I have to do. However, I do many things around the house because I love her and the things I do show or prove I love her. If I didn't do them, then it would be doubtful I really loved her. It also is true, I never ask her to do anything either, so when things get done, I know it's because she loves me. She doesn't "have to" do them. Each knows what is done makes the others life more pleasant, and shows love, respect and honor. What a miserable marriage it would be if either of us thought we had to do something to keep the relationship going.

Exactly Jeff!
All I say is that all those things that I do for my wife are ''works'', aren't they?When I say ''have to'' I don't mean that my wife holds a whip and forces me to , but my heart that is filled with love for her makes me do it.
I see what you mean and I totally put my name under these words.
P.S. Sorry for not being able to give you a credit here,but as you say ''they'' won't let me!

Proven that baptism is to be born again of the spirit

Salvation is to raise from the dead as Christ raised. So the resurrection of the dead was sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption. By Adam came death, by Christ came the resurrection of death. (Reference 1 Cr 15)

1 Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

Interesting one. I never saw anyone try to use this to support belief in baptismal regeneration before, other than Mormons. Note that this is not an endorsement of baptism for the dead - it is simply acknowledging that some people do engage in the practice. Of course if you are trying to argue that this is the basis for a doctrine of baptismal regeneration, then perhaps we ought to have a second thread on whather you belief that those who have already died can be saved after death through substitutionary baptism of the living for the dead. I truly hope that you do not believe in that.


Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Which takes us back to: Baptism and HIS hand of fire

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in HIS hand, and He will thoroughly purge HIS floor, and gather HIS wheat into the garner; but HE will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Jesus' baptism in the Holy Spirit was clearly, according to John, the important baptism.

Not many people are in the same position as the thief was.The majority of us have a lot of time in front of us and we could take take both ways if we like.The way of God , or not.

Not true - every single saint in the OT was in the same position as the thief.

How were they saved? Are you saying that there were two ways to be saved? That Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not necessary?

No Adam is NOT saying that.
Why do you ask such silly questions?
Fred

No Adam is NOT saying that.
Why do you ask such silly questions?
Fred

Fred,

Rather than interrupting and telling me and others what we can or cannot say, why don't you let us discuss these points without your disruption?

Yj3.
I do NOT tell you what you can say and never did.
You can say what you please, but that does not mean that I will always agree with what you say.
Fred

Back to the topic...


Not many people are in the same position as the thief was.The majority of us have a lot of time in front of us and we could take take both ways if we like.The way of God , or not.

Not true - every single saint in the OT was in the same position as the thief.

How were they saved? Are you saying that there were two ways to be saved? That Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not necessary?

Proven that baptism is to be born again of the spirit

Salvation is to raise from the dead as Christ raised. So the resurrection of the dead was sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption. By Adam came death, by Christ came the resurrection of death. (Reference 1 Cr 15)

1 Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

Interesting one. I never saw anyone try to use this to support belief in baptismal regeneration before, other than Mormons. Note that this is not an endorsement of baptism for the dead - it is simply acknowledging that some people do engage in the practice. Of course if you are trying to argue that this is the basis for a doctrine of baptismal regeneration, then perhaps we ought to have a second thread on whather you belief that those who have already died can be saved after death through substitutionary baptism of the living for the dead. I truly hope that you do not believe in that.


Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Which takes us back to: Baptism and HIS hand of fire

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in HIS hand, and He will thoroughly purge HIS floor, and gather HIS wheat into the garner; but HE will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Jesus' baptism in the Holy Spirit was clearly, according to John, the important baptism.

Interesting one. I never saw anyone try to use this to support belief in baptismal regeneration before, other than Mormons. Note that this is not an endorsement of baptism for the dead - it is simply acknowledging that some people do engage in the practice. Of course if you are trying to argue that this is the basis for a doctrine of baptismal regeneration, then perhaps we ought to have a second thread on whather you belief that those who have already died can be saved after death through substitutionary baptism of the living for the dead. I truly hope that you do not believe in that.

The knowledge of each religious following in which you have studied has given reason for our differences. I have offered scripture being the WORD of GOD. My heart does not reflect HIS WORD to religions of demonations. You have posted three different times that the scripture in which was offered as GOD's WORD, gives you reason to think of Mormons.

All the religious demonations have flaws of teaching by man. We can see this in many ways and it does include baptism.

Clear the mind of such teaching, to allow God to reveal truth.

2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost

Follow the Word of God...Hear HIS VOICE

Tom, Have you been baptized, if so, when and how?

Just checking in . See you all are still arguing. Fred even lost his "peace and kindness" salutation. Never thought I'd see that. Go back to the drawing board and admit that with just about any given writing in the bible has truth based on your own opinion.
You can argue till the cows come home, but that is all you really have. Your opinion.

Just checking in . See you all are still arguing. Fred even lost his "peace and kindness" salutation. Never thought I'd see that. Go back to the drawing board and admit that with just about any given writing in the bible has truth based on your own personal opinion.
You can argue till the cows come home, but that is all you really have. Your personal opinion.

I disagree with this because, I believe in God, and HIS power of creation. It is only your own personal opinion when you follow your own pride. God tells us to deny ourselves and follow Christ. Following your own personal opinion verse what God can reveal to you, clearly is in darkness as the scripture reference.

All souls belong to God, and we were created for HIS pleasure.

I could offer scripture which is the WORD of GOD to back this up. Just let me know if you would like me to do that.

~In Christ

p.s. Fred will always remain in peace and kindness, because it is in HIS heart of love.

Back to the topic.....

Not true - every single saint in the OT was in the same position as the thief.

How were they saved? Are you saying that there were two ways to be saved? That Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not necessary?

Remember the woman Jesus said go now and sin no more. Faith in HIM, and the law of oath by God's promise would SAVE them. It is true they were filthy rags under the law, yet the promise of priesthood in righteousness then was changed when Christ was anointed as our Saviour by HIS blood. The better way! Some might have been baptized by John, we don't know for sure who was and wasn't.

Jesus sacrifice on the cross changed the priesthood, and the vail was taken down. The Faith in that ONE begotten Son of God restored what Adam (Adam means man as well) had caused by the curse of sin.

The law of Faith is to be established, and we should acknowledge salvation is the law of Faith .. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.

I disagree with this because, I believe in God, and HIS power of creation. It is only your own personal opinion when you follow your own pride. God tells us to deny ourselves and follow Christ. Following your own personal opinion verse what God can reveal to you, clearly is in darkness as the scripture reference.

All souls belong to God, and we were created for HIS pleasure.

I could offer scripture which is the WORD of GOD to back this up. Just let me know if you would like me to do that.

~In Christ

p.s. Fred will always remain in peace and kindness, because it is in HIS heart of love.

And you have your opinion of what God is saying, and Fred has his, and TJ has his. Which one is Gods?

Who said anything about following your own pride? Pride equals ego and that's NOT what we should follow. The ego is selfish, guarded, greedy, and shallow. Go deeper than the ego. Go to the "I am". I am" my heart, soul, spirit, center of my essence. That is where God speaks.

What good would offering scripture do? Maybe God in his infinite wisdom could re-write his words so that this bickering about "what he REALLY meant by that" would not be an issue. Offering scripture just muddies the water.

I know about Fred. He IS a kind soul and I believe he has a huge heart filled with love and good intentions. I was just rattling his chain. Goes to show that even Fred is human when it comes to protecting his belief , when others disagree.

Remember the woman Jesus said go now and sin no more. Faith in HIM, and the law of oath by God's promise would SAVE them. It is true they were filthy rags under the law, yet the promise of priesthood in righteousness then was changed when Christ was anointed as our Saviour by HIS blood. The better way! Some might have been baptized by John, we don't know for sure who was and wasn't.

Jesus sacrifice on the cross changed the priesthood, and the vail was taken down. The Faith in that ONE begotten Son of God restored what Adam (Adam means man as well) had caused by the curse of sin.

The law of Faith is to be established, and we should acknowledge salvation is the law of Faith .. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.

Again, are you saying that there was one way to be saved in the OT under the priesthood, and a different way to be saved in the NT?

If so, what specifically are you saying took away sins in the OT?

The knowledge of each religious following in which you have studied has given reason for our differences. I have offered scripture being the WORD of GOD. My heart does not reflect HIS WORD to religions of demonations. You have posted three different times that the scripture in which was offered as GOD's WORD, gives you reason to think of Mormons.

That is because it is usually the Mormons who try to say that baptism for the dead is a valid means of saving people. Scripture does not say that anywhere.


Tom, Have you been baptized, if so, when and how?

If you mean by water, yes, twice, the dates do not matter. If your question was aiming at something else, please advise.

Ultimately, what I did, or you did, or anyone else did is of no consequence in this discussion because we do not base sound doctrine on the actions and experiences of men.

And you have your opinion of what God is saying, and Fred has his, and TJ has his. Which one is Gods?

God gave His opinion in the Bible.

And you have your opinion of what God is saying, and Fred has his, and TJ has his. Which one is Gods?



Jesus tells us God's will, which is much more then an opinion, and Jesus followed HIS Father's Will. This is what I hear and believe:

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

This is Faith in God

2 Sa 22:21 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.

2 Sa 22:33 God is my strength and power: and he maketh my way perfect.

2 Sa 22:36 Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy gentleness hath made me great.

Again, are you saying that there was one way to be saved in the OT under the priesthood, and a different way to be saved in the NT?

If so, what specifically are you saying took away sins in the OT?

Salvation was written of in (Genesis 49:18) According to the promise of God (Isa 25:8-9 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.)

Christ would be that completeness of that promise, The Everlasting WORD.

The OT was a promise given in faith according to the doctrine of life, with love, showing patience, follow the Will of God, and lving under the law.

What SAVED them, the PROMISE, because I trust they were delivered up unto the LORD.


Note: before the beginning of the world:

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

***************************************

Follow
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousnessThat the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

***************************************
2 Timothy 2:11-13 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Note: To whom, that is a follower of Christ:2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.


Tom, Why don't you offer your heart of belief? Is it different then what I have said? Tell me your answer.

Salvation was written of in (Genesis 49:18) According to the promise of God (Isa 25:8-9 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.)

Christ would be that completeness of that promise, The Everlasting WORD.

Okay - we agree.



The OT was a promise given in faith according to the doctrine of life, with love, showing patience, follow the Will of God, and lving under the law.

What SAVED them, the PROMISE, because I trust they were delivered up unto the LORD.

So, I am still not entirely clear on your position - were they saved by obedience to the law, the animal sacrifices, or by the blood shed on the cross? In other words, something had to pay the price for sin - what was it?

That is because it is usually the Mormons who try to say that baptism for the dead is a valid means of saving people. Scripture does not say that anywhere.

I thought it was you that did not follow faith by denominations?

The scriptures offered was the WORD of GOD... Read it as God's WORDS to you.

1 Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1 Cr 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

1 Cr 15:36 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:



If you mean by water, yes, twice, the dates do not matter. If your question was aiming at something else, please advise.

My question help me to discern better the measure of enlightenment that God might offer accordingly. I was baptized by my parents at birth, but I was brought to a period in life when that baptism was better recognized as a dedication of faith. I struggled most with the faith of baptism, when I gave birth to my first son who was premature. My heart searched for answers as to whether he had to be baptized immediately or risk that open door as the church instructed. My life has been pushed by the church rules, yet it was my love in Christ that brought me to follow HIM. Seven years ago I found my love in Christ brought much more assurance in following HIM, hearing HIM, and resting in HIM. I was baptized in a salt water pool giving my heart of faith only to HIM. BY my own life given to HIM and lived in HIM, I know there is a difference.

Also I recognize that those searching and unsettled questions are God working in us.



Ultimately, what I did, or you did, or anyone else did is of no consequence in this discussion because we do not base sound doctrine on the actions and experiences of men.

I would agree with that, because no one other then ourselves will be accountable to our choices which lead our ways. And it is God who reveals unto whom He chooses in according of HIS Will.

So, I am still not entirely clear on your position - were they saved by obedience to the law, the animal sacrifices, or by the blood shed on the cross? In other words, something had to pay the price for sin - what was it?

By Faith they were SAVED... Belief in the promise of God... Salvation... Just as we today would be under the law until it brings us unto Christ (the schoolmaster), they were under the law. Their law worked in animal sacrifices, but our's today is Chist blood. (the promised is here) If they live in accordance to God's will of righteousness, then they would be delivered up unto the LORD ..

Niether OT or NT is based on works saving.. both are based on faith... yet we also know faith without works is dead. Today without Christ, and our righteousness of works that come from faith in HIM, we are dead. (James 2:6)


(2 Timothy 3:10-11) offers an example.. faith brings salvation

But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

By Faith they were SAVED... Belief in the promise of God... Salvation... Just as we today would be under the law until it brings us unto Christ (the schoolmaster), they were under the law. Their law worked in animal sacrifices, but our's today is Chist blood. (the promised is here) If they live in accordance to God's will of righteousness, then they would be delivered up unto the LORD..

There are problems with this view:

First, faith by itself will not save. Blood must be shed to pay the price for sins:

Heb 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
NKJV

And second, the blood of animals will not work:

Heb 10:4
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
NKJV

If this were true, then Christ died in vain, since we could have simply continued the animals sacrifices combined with faith in God. This position minimalizes Christ sacrifice and indeed the necessity of the gospel.

Neither OT or NT is based on works saving.. both are based on faith... yet we also know faith without works is dead. Today without Christ, and our righteousness of works that come from faith in HIM, we are dead. (James 2:6)



(2 Timothy 3:10-11) offers an example.. faith brings salvation

Faith is an essential part of salvation, but faith alone without the shedding of the blood on the cross will not save. There must be atonement for sin, and that is by shedding of blood, Christ's blood alone.

How were those in the OT saved? By the only possible way to be saved. Faith in the Messiah. No, they had not seen Him yet, but their faith in the Messiah to come is what caused the blood on the cross to be applied to their sins. The timeline is no problem for God - He is outside of time.

We have evidence of this truth in scripture. How was Moses saved?

Heb 11:23-27
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's command. 24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
NKJV

And even the reference in 2 Timothy that you referred to tells us how the OT speaks of the gospel of Christ. There is no other way to be saved and never has been. If water baptism were essential now for salvation, it would have been essential then.

I thought it was you that did not follow faith by denominations?

I don't. It looks like your last message is just a repeat of what you posted before. Just posting the same verses again does not address the issues that I raised previously. If you have any response to the concerns that I raised, I am interested.

There are problems with this view:

First, faith by itself will not save. Blood must be shed to pay the price for sins:

Heb 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
NKJV


Faith is the belief of the Begotten Son of God who came to shed HIS bood and the body that walked this earth as flesh showing the way..

Faith is the belief of the Begotten Son of God who came to shed HIS bood and the body that walked this earth as flesh showing the way..

Then do you agree with me that salvation is only through the shed blood of Christ on the cross, and that there was no other way in the OT times?

And second, the blood of animals will not work:

Heb 10:4
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
NKJV

.

Correct the works don't do it, but salvation was a promise from God... needing faith .. They were promised salvation (Genesis 49:18)

Correct the works don't do it, but salvation was a promise from God... needing faith .. They were promised salvation (Genesis 49:18)

Do you agree with me that salvation is only through the shed blood of Christ on the cross, and that there was no other way in the OT times?

Then do you agree with me that salvation is only through the shed blood of Christ on the cross, and that there was no other way in the OT times?

No because if you go back to reference scripture, salvation is = One Lord ONe Faith One Baptism

From OT to NT the change is that Christ is confessed the begotten Son of God

The one Faith body and blood Christ (NT)

The one Faith promise Messiah/blood animal (OT)

Tom do you trust God would be good on HIS promise of salvation to those in the OT if they would indeed loving, patience, and live by the doctrine of Life. Would he deliver them up to Christ as He promised?

Again faith without works is dead! (OT) and (NT)

No because if you go back to reference scripture, salvation is = One Lord ONe Faith One Baptism

But the question keeps coming up - which baptism - the Holy Spirit or Water?


From OT to NT the change is that Christ is confessed the begotten Son of God

The one Faith body and blood Christ (NT)

The one Faith promise Messiah/blood animal (OT)

So what atoned for their sins in the OT if not the blood that Christ shed on the cross?

Tom do you trust God would be good on HIS promise of salvation to those in the OT if they would indeed loving, patience, and live by the doctrine of Life. Would he deliver them up to Christ as He promised?

Again faith without works is dead! (OT) and (NT)

I trust God, but I am not sure that we agree regarding what the OT saints were trusting God for, or how they were saved. That is why I am asking you questions to find out what your beliefs are.

BTW, I am not sure that we agree also on what "Faith without works is dead" means.

God gave His opinion in the Bible.

So why are you arguing about it? It must not be very clear.

So why are you arguing about it? It must not be very clear.

Keep in mind that some people do not base their doctrine solely on the Bible - for some it is the denominational interpretation or additions to the Bible.

In any case, [people are not perfect though God's word is - God told us to correct and study with each other, and thus disagreeing is not an issue on non-essentials. The important thing is to be willing to submit our views to the word of God.

You are welcome to join the discussion on the topic.

But the question keeps coming up - which baptism - the Holy Spirit or Water?



So what atoned for their sins in the OT if not the blood that Christ shed on the cross?

Okay,, think of it this way and I hope I am explaining correctly..

This is way I say unlike what churches teach today, Christ blood shed set us free from sin. That included OT and NT... What was once leaving us in a curse of sin, has taken the curse away. The one time blood sacrifice that brought us back to the image of righteousness in which we were created to be. We are no longer filthy rags, because once we leave the law which told of sin. We are now to establish the LAW of Faith.

ok

Think I'm going to unsubscribe because all this disagreement is driving me nuts. Talk about beating a dead horse. Give it a rest. Why don't you just agree to disagree? See you around.

Okay,, think of it this way and I hope I am explaining correctly..

This is way I say unlike what churches teach today, Christ blood shed set us free from sin. That included OT and NT...

Agreed.

This being the case, then we can look at the plan of salvation, whether in the OT or NT as one and the same plan, with the cross as the center of history, those saints in the OT looking forward to the coming of the cross, and those in our timeframe looking back at the death of Christ on the cross and His resurrection.

Do we agree?

Tom, people do not like this because this is saying no to sin.. Not permitted to be filthy rags but to be righteous, and as one with Christ is far more then what they will say is possible. That is what brings in the works and faith as one.

It is not easy but it is the cross we bear in our love for God.

Be ye holy for I am HOLY

Agreed.

This being the case, then we can look at the plan of salvation, whether in the OT or NT as one and the same plan, with the cross as the center of history, those saints in the OT looking forward to the coming of the cross, and those in our timeframe looking back at the death of Christ on the cross and His resurrection.

Do we agree?

Yes.. But you have to look for the sacrifice you bear carrying the cross It means you follow Christ in One LORD ONE Faith One Baptism= SALVATION

Tom, people do not like this because this is saying no more sin.. Not permitted to be filthy rags but to be righteous, and as one with Christ is far more then what they will say is possible. That is what brings in the works and faith as one.

It is not easy but it is the cross we bear in our love for God.

Be ye holy for I am HOLY

I know that people don't like it. Because today people don't want to know that sin exists - because once it does, they must respond. And it also means that there is nothing that we can do to earn our salvation, it is through Christ's sacrifice on the cross alone.

Yes.. But you have to look for the sacrifice you bear carrying the cross It means you follow Christ in One LORD ONE Faith One Baptism= SALVATION

Yes, right - once we are saved, we need to follow Christ, and we are to be obedient to Him. Scripture says that none of us are perfect in that regard, but as the Holy Spirit indwelling us guides us, we will grow to be more the person that God wants us to be.

That being the case, we also agree that we must follow Christ in One LORD ONE Faith One Baptism= SALVATION.

In John 7:39 we are told that ALL who believe in Christ receive the Holy Spirit. And we cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless we first belief in One Lord, through the One Faith in Him. So once we receive Jesus as Saviour, we share the One Lord, One Faith and One baptism with all true believers.

After we are saved, we follow the Lord in obedience in water baptism.

I know that people don't like it. Because today people don't want to know that sin exists - because once it does, they must respond. And it also means that there is nothing that we can do to earn our salvation, it is through Christ's sacrifice on the cross alone.

Hold on Tom... You are right sin does exist. And people like the ability to sled along and do nothing in return. What comes once you realize you have been set free (REJOICE) indeed. but then walk in Christ as He will dwell within you. But if one returns to unrighteousness and sin intentional, there is not being saved a second time. You must think before doing, and out of love for Christ's sacrifice bear the cross.

Yes, right - once we are saved, we need to follow Christ, and we are to be obedient to Him. Scripture says that none of us are perfect in that regard, but as the Holy Spirit indwelling us guides us, we will grow to be more the person that God wants us to be.

That being the case, we also agree that we must follow Christ in One LORD ONE Faith One Baptism= SALVATION.

In John 7:39 we are told that ALL who believe in Christ receive the Holy Spirit. And we cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless we first belief in One Lord, through the One Faith in Him. So once we receive Jesus as Saviour, we share the One Lord, One Faith and One baptism with all true believers.

After we are saved, we follow the Lord in obedience in water baptism.

I would give you green but it won't let me.. REJOICE... You have said it..

Hold on Tom... You are right sin does exist. And people like the ability to sled along and do nothing in return. What comes once you realize you have been set free (REJOICE) indeed. but then walk in Chris as He will dwell within you. But if one returns to unrighteousness and sin intentional, there is not being saved a second time. You must think before doing, and out of love for Christ's sacrifice bear the cross.

Agreed, with one variation.

You said

"But if one returns to unrighteousness and sin intentional, there is not being saved a second time. "

I would re-word this to say:


"But if one returns to rejecting Christ as Saviour, there is not being saved a second time. "

Agreed, with one variation.

You said

"But if one returns to unrighteousness and sin intentional, there is not being saved a second time. "

I would re-word this to say:


"But if one returns to rejecting Christ as Saviour, there is not being saved a second time. "

1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

I think the verse I am thinking of is in Hebrews.. I know we have discussed it before. It says unrighteousness

1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

I think the verse I am thinking of is in Hebrews.. I know we have discussed it before. It says unrighteousness


Heb 6:3-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

Heb 6:3-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

Yes, and from here Tom the truth continues in strong meat where you leave the milk of babes (Hebrews 5:13)

Newness of Life in Christ

Eph 4:23-24 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Yes, and from here Tom the truth continues in strong meat bwhere by you leave the milk of babes (Hebrews 5:13)

Newness of Life in Christ

Eph 4:23-24 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Yes, and it is Hebrews 6 which makes it clear that we can reject Christ after being saved, and ceased to be saved, but there is no second salvation.

Yes, and it is Hebrews 6 which makes it clear that we can reject Christ after being saved, and ceased to be saved, but there is no second salvation.

Yes...

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

And we are no longer servants because Christ calls them that follow, HIS friend

James 2:23-24 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Yes...

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

And we are no longer servants because Christ calls them that follow, HIS friend

James 2:23-24 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

It is important to understand what the word "faith" means. In Greek the word "faith" is the same as "faithfulness". So when we say that faith without works is dead, the context can be understood if we read it also as "faithfulness without works is dead".

In other words, it is not the works themselves which are important, but rather our faithfulness is exhibited in our works. If there are no works, in what way are we being faithful? And ultimately, if we are not being faithful, do we truly have faith?

It is important to understand what the word "faith" means. In Greek the word "faith" is the same as "faithfulness". So when we say that faith without works is dead, the context can be understood if we read it also as "faithfulness without works is dead".

In other words, it is not the works themselves which are important, but rather our faithfulness is exhibited in our works. If there are no works, in what way are we being faithful? And ultimately, if we are not being faithful, do we truly have faith?

Could not agree with you more..

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I have been studying the scripture concerning the perfecting faith.

Peace and kindness is my wish and hope for all, all the time.
Fred

Hi adam7gur,

These verses are John being shown the works of the seven candlesticks. Those candlesticks are seven churches(Revel 1:20) And this message is confirming that one of the churches has left their first love (God the love above all else). Althought they teach the fault of evil, they, themselves says they know the apostles but call them liers by: (probably by not following the apostles direction in gospel and tradisions.) Man today make up their own tradisions which makes void the word of God. Also in doing so God says they have left HIS Word which is what the scripture say is God from the beginning, and was made flesh in Christ. They are doing this all in HIS name sake.

So yes this church (members of a fellowship)could lose their salvation in Christ, when they leave HIM for their own prideful ways. They must repent !

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Hello my brother!
Your way of expressing yourself is sometimes difficult for me to follow since English is not my mother language,but I admire the chained ideas that you describe many times.
I will try harder to follow you!God bless you!

Not true - every single saint in the OT was in the same position as the thief.

How were they saved? Are you saying that there were two ways to be saved? That Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not necessary?

Once again,twisting words!
Was really every saint in the OT on a cross with Jesus?
If so then you must change the photo that you have on your profile and add some thousand more!
I surely meant the position of the cross,literally!!
How were OT people saved?By obeying the law,which from A-Z is Jesus Christ, so obeying the law is obeying Christ!
Both OT and NT believers are saved by Christ who is the same yesterday,today and forever!
Doesn't this make you think at least?
Isn't it clear for you that the sacrifise of Jesus repleaced the sacrifise of animals?
Replacing is not saying that what was till then is wrong , but as Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and not cancel it!
To speak in modern language , the sacrifise of Jesus is an update of the sacrifice of animals!

Ro 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by works of law For they stumbled at that stumbling stone
Ga 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified
Ga 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them"

Once again,twisting words!

Your false accusations are really becoming tiring - give it a rest.



Was really every saint in the OT on a cross with Jesus?

They were all in the same situation in that none of then had Christian baptism, therefore you cannot say that the thief on the cross is an individual case - in fact up to that point, none of the saint were so baptized. If baptized was essential for salvation, then they would all be dead in their sins.


How were OT people saved?By obeying the law,which from A-Z is Jesus Christ, so obeying the law is obeying Christ!

Gal 3:21-22
For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
NKJV

1 Tim 1:9-11
9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
NKJV


Isn't it clear for you that the sacrifise of Jesus repleaced the sacrifise of animals?

According to scripture, Christ did not replace the animals, rather than animals were prophetic of Christ and the sacrifices were pointing to the true source of their salvation

Heb 10:3-4
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
NKJV

Heb 10:11-12
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
NKJV

Heb 10:12-15
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

They were all in the same situation in that none of then had Christian baptism, therefore you cannot say that the thief on the cross is an individual case - in fact up to that point, none of the saint were so baptized. if baptized was essential for salvation, then they would all be dead in their sins.


adam7gur and Tom,

I can't detail much at this time because of my schedule...

However please recognize the (OT) law of sin having to follow in circumcision. (NT) law of Faith is circumcision of the heart.

The theif on the cross for all we know was circumcised at birth by the law of sin they followed. Baptism is (NT) law of Faith

adam7gur and Tom,

I can't detail much at this time because of my schedule...

However please recognize the (OT) law of sin having to follow in circumcision. (NT) law of Faith is circumcision of the heart.

The theif on the cross for all we know was circumcised at birth by the law of sin they followed. Baptism is (NT) law of Faith

Circumcision never saved, just as water baptism does not save. Scripture tells us this. Circumcision was symbolic and prophetic of the circumcision of our hearts that takes place when we submit ourselves to Christ. The circumcision itself does not save, nor did it ever. Notice here we are told that there were men walking in faith with God prior to being circumcised:

Rom 4:11-12
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
NKJV

Likewise, if you truly want to understand baptism, you need to understand the Jewish Mikveh. The Mikveh IS baptism. It IS what John was doing, and it is what we do today. Yet the OT Mikveh was, according to scripture symbolic of Christ who was to come, and is fulfilled in Christ. We therefore do it today as symbolism (according to Romans 6, Heb 9 and others) of what Christ has done for us.

Circumcision never saved, just as water baptism does not save.

Tom the statement makes void the reference of 1 Peter 3:21-22

ONE Baptism is in like figure to Jesus and water of Noah, that it also saves us .

(1 Peter 3:21-22 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ





Scripture tells us this. Circumcision was symbolic and prophetic of the circumcision of our hearts that takes place when we submit ourselves to Christ. The circumcision itself does not save, nor did it ever. Notice here we are told that there were men walking in faith with God prior to being circumcised:

We can say the same about the Gentiles being baptized. Even when they were reveal truth by the spirit< they were still baptized And I will add, you are saying baptism is symbolic water, just as circumcision. The difference is we are told baptism does save.. NOT by put away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God
This is the spiritual body within, the conscience, the heart mind and soul.. Jesus took care of the flesh body. Plus He set us free from the curse, and the law of sin. Chirst brought us salvation

Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,






Rom 4:11-12
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
NKJV
.

OT circumcision =(a seal of the righteousness)

NT baptism = Jesus said-- (fulfil all righteousness)

Tom the statement makes void the reference of 1 Peter 3:21-22

ONE Baptism is in like figure to Jesus and water of Noah, that it also saves us .

(1 Peter 3:21-22 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Let's look at the passage in context

1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
NKJV

We see three things discussed here:

1) Noah's Ark and its role in saving people through the flood
2) Water baptism
3) The gospel and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This passage relates these three items by showing how they relate. First Peter speaks the death of Christ on the cross, setting the focus for the passage. As a result of this passage, we know that the focus of the verses that follow are regarding the death of Christ on the cross for our sins.

This death for our sins is then compared, to the flood, with the flood discussed as a symbolic “type” or comparison to salvation which come through the cross of Christ. An anti-type means a replacement or a contrast. This when we are told about one type, and then we are told that there is an anti-type, what we see here is a contrasting type of the death on the cross.

This understanding also agrees with what Paul said in Romans 6 where he identifies baptism as a “likeness” or symbolic of the death and resurrection on the cross:

Rom 6:3-7
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

So we find that Romans 6 and 1 Peter 3 are telling us the same thing – baptism is symbolic.


We can say the same about the Gentiles being baptized. Even when they were reveal truth by the spirit< they were still baptized And I will add, you are saying baptism is symbolic water, just as circumcision. The difference is we are told baptism does save..

Look at what I said above. We cannot take a small passage out of context.


Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Which baptism is the ONE baptism, water or the Holy Spirit?

adam7gur ans sndbay,
I agree with you on this and the Scripture you sited confirms it.
Fred

We see three things discussed here:

1) Noah's Ark and its role in saving people through the flood
2) Water baptism
3) The gospel and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1. is the Comparison flood of water.

However 2. and 3. are the (joining of one hope) of the calling in salvation. That hope in calling joins us to One Lord/Christ,
One faith/flesh sins gone by the begotten son of God who is worthy and righteousness,
One baptism/ the spirit dwelling mind and heart

Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Chirst was of flesh with the dwelling of the Holy Spirit joined as ONE in righteousness. I have reference scripture which says you can not say Christ was Lord otherwise.
Christ is One with The Father...
We are called to be one with Christ. We walk in HIM and He dwells in us.= One hope in salvation




This passage relates these three items by showing how they relate. First Peter speaks the death of Christ on the cross, setting the focus for the passage. As a result of this passage, we know that the focus of the verses that follow are regarding the death of Christ on the cross for our sins.

It is the death of sin on the cross, Christ was raised.



This death for our sins is then compared, to the flood, with the flood discussed as a symbolic “type” or comparison to salvation which come through the cross of Christ. An anti-type means a replacement or a contrast. This when we are told about one type, and then we are told that there is an anti-type, what we see here is a contrasting type of the death on the cross.

I can agree, it is the comparison. I did example that comparison.




This understanding also agrees with what Paul said in Romans 6 where he identifies baptism as a “likeness” or symbolic of the death and resurrection on the cross:

Yes and able to raise as Christ was raised...




Which baptism is the ONE baptism, water or the Holy Spirit?


Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

One Lord One Faith One Baptism = the joined answering to the calling of salvation

Hello my brother!
Your way of expressing yourself is sometimes difficult for me to follow since English is not my mother language,but I admire the chained ideas that you describe many times.
I will try harder to follow you!God bless you!

adam7gur,
I understand that differences in languarge can be hard to follow.


(In prayer) = In the spirit of Christ Jesus, may we be all that God created us to be. His strength to keep us in HIS way, doing the Will of GOD, who we follow.

In Jesus Name, Amen

Ro 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by works of law For they stumbled at that stumbling stone
Ga 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified
Ga 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them"

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

1. is the Comparison flood of water.
However 2. and 3. are the (joining of one hope) of the calling in salvation. That hope in calling joins us to One Lord/Christ,

That is your claim, but that is not what we find in scripture.


Eph 4:4-5 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Which is the ONE baptism, water or the Holy Spirit?


Chirst was of flesh with the dwelling of the Holy Spirit joined as ONE in righteousness. I have reference scripture which says you can not say Christ was Lord otherwise.

That would make the baptism of the Holy Spirit being the ONE baptism. I agree.


I can agree, it is the comparison. I did example that comparison.

Then being a comparison, the water does not save, but rather is compared to the event which does provide our salvation.

That is your claim, but that is not what we find in scripture.

Remember the body is weak so Christ shed HIS blood for the body.. There spirit is willing, so we do want to walk in the spirtual dwelling of Christ, and can do so once baptized. That willingness is witness by heaven, and baptism is the HOLY SPIRIT part to dwell within us.

We have not gotten to the facts on the flesh body being dead in Christ verses asleep in HIM.. And that would be another thread. It addresses the challenge of a person that did confess faith, but died of the flesh before baptized. We can't judge this, but Christ does. Point is the dead in Christ rise first... The first to rise are them that are baptized in Christ and have confessed faith. The twinking of the eye is to become of the spiritual body, and leaving the flesh. Christ will return as the great brightness of light(spiritual body)... Anyone proclaiming to be Christ is 666 (flesh man)..

The WORD = Christ has foretold us all things...




Then being a comparison, the water does not save, but rather is compared to the event which does provide our salvation.

Tom, Most assuredly nothing of man's hands other then Christ saves us. It is not the church that baptizes us but the reality of the HOLY SPIRIT coming within us. It does not take a priest to baptize, for many baptized in scripture that were not priest. And John, himself was baptized, not by himself but by the HOLY SPIRIT from womb(OT)...
Note being that (NT) says reborn at an old age in confession of faith in Christ. We must establish the law of Faith in (NT).. being baptized symbolic of water = comparison of flood, and spiritual of the mind and heart = HOLY SPIRIT



p.s. Willing heart and mind to go forward on their own to be baptized..

Which is the ONE baptism, water or the Holy Spirit?
.

ONE BAPTISM

symbolic of water = comparison of flood

Spiritual of the mind and heart = HOLY SPIRIT


~In Christ

ONE BAPTISM

symbolic of water = comparison of flood

Spiritual of the mind and heart = HOLY SPIRIT


~In Christ

Then the ONE baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Remember the body is weak so Christ shed HIS blood for the body.. There spirit is willing, so we do want to walk in the spirtual dwelling of Christ,

Okay...


and can do so once baptized.

This is the part that you yet need to prove from scripture.


Tom, Most assuredly nothing of man's hands other then Christ saves us. It is not the church that baptizes us but the reality of the HOLY SPIRIT coming within us.

Right - the ONE baptism is that of the Holy Spirit.

This is the part that you yet need to prove from scripture.

.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

*******************************

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Continue: so if we are baptized:( Romans 6:5 [/B] For "if "we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection):

Continue: Our body might be destroyed/crucified/ not ever to serve sin (Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. )

So the revealed truth is that Christ dead for sin, and raised... He set us free from the curse of sin. We are able in baptism, thereafter never to return to sin, because we are dead in HIS likeness.

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Death is satan... satan has no more dominion over Christ. We are sealed in the righteosuness of Christ, HIS likness. Dead and buried in Christ.

Then the ONE baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

YES... Remembering that Christ is one body with the HOLY SPIRIT, and HIS Father

So Tom is one body with HOLY SPIRIT and CHRIST (by baptism)


John 17:21-22That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17: 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

So Tom is one body with HOLY SPIRIT and CHRIST (by baptism)


I'll deal with the other comments when I have more time, but I just want to note that you add "by baptism", which is not found in scripture. Rather than telling me, find a scripture verse which, on context, validates that claim, and I'll gladly concede. But I won't believe it just because you tell me.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him.

If your point here is that must be obedient to righteousness to be saved, I have bad news for you - Read Romans 3:23. No one but Jesus has succeeded yet. If that was the gospel, it would not be much of a gospel because it would condemn us all - as the law does.

But the good news that we are not saved by our works, or our righteousness, but by His righteousness.


Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

It is interesting that you quote this, which comes as a conclusion to a section of scripture speaking against works of the law as being a path to salvation.

Are you aware that the word "baptized" also means to be identified with?


Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Continue: so if we are baptized:( Romans 6:5 [/B] For "if "we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection):

Right - "likeness" means that it is a comparison / symbolism.


Continue: Our body might be destroyed/crucified/ not ever to serve sin (Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. )

So the revealed truth is that Christ dead for sin, and raised... He set us free from the curse of sin. We are able in baptism, thereafter never to return to sin, because we are dead in HIS likeness.

Interesting that you should add baptism to this last verse when it does not say what you claim. Nowhere does it say or even suggest that baptism saves us or keeps us saved.

From Jesus-messiah.com
Jesus said everyone must be born of the water and of the Spirit. Most Christians argue about being born of the water; does it mean being born of the birth water of a mother; or does it mean water baptism? For the most part, Christians are ignorant of the Jewish connection to water baptism. They see it as a new invention beginning with John the Baptist. This gives many to reject water and Spirit baptisms as two parts to being born again. For Apostolics, we see in Acts 2:38 the verification of water and Spirit baptisms as the born again experience. We do not need nor do we look for any other validation or proof to the meaning of Jesus in John 3:3-5. However, for those not convinced in water and Spirit baptisms of the one new birth, especially that being born of the water is water baptism: I offer the Jewish source as proof.

“The baptismal water (Mikveh) in rabbinic literature was referred to as the womb of the world, and as a convert came out of the water it was considered a new birth separating him from the pagan world. As the convert came out of these waters his status was changed and he was referred to as “a little child just born” or “a child of one day”
The Mikveh was used for several different washings. They were all for a good conscience before God. The Mikveh was not a work of man, it was not invented by man. God is the designer and originator of this baptism (by baptism we mean immersion). There were several types of mikveh-baptisms. There was mikveh for women who completed their monthly cycle. This purification mikveh could be done at home and is the cause of the water pots where Jesus turned water into wine. It is said these contained water after the manner of the purification of the Jews. These waters of Mikveh were also for the washing of hands after being defiled by touching things unclean. They were used for washing clothes that might have become unclean by some contact with the profane. The waters of Mikveh were specifically designed to bring about sanctification. They were additionally the object for ceremonial washing and purification. In other words, whatever passed through the waters of Mikveh was then cleansed, purified, and sanctified, MADE HOLY!

Mikveh is the gathering together of any waters where any form of washing or passing through is considered an act of cleansing and sanctification. The term arises from the creation account when God gathered the waters and separated the land from the sea. From this springs the idea that in all acts of Mikveh there is a separation made by the water. It is said when the children passed through the Red Sea on the way to the promised land and were thus separated and sanctified unto Moses from Egyptian defilement, that this was a mikveh. The passing through the waters of the Red Sea is called a mikveh by Jews. Likewise, any passing through waters of separation by any means of cleansing is called a mikveh. When a Gentile wanted to convert to Judaism, he/she had to undergo Mikveh-baptism as a sign they were passing from Gentileism into Judaism, passing from idols to the true God, passing from life as a dead person to a new life in God, passing from the darkness of evil knowledge into the light of God's truth, and passing from the religion of the nations to accept the religion of the Jews. A person who did not say as Ruth: Your people shall be my people and your God shall be my God, could not enter the waters of convert Mikveh because they had not brought forth the fruits of repentance (Turning to God from one's past sins, life, and identity). These could not be a convert to Judaism. Each convert must make the same confession as Ruth at the time of their convert Mikveh-baptism: Your people shall become my people, and your God my God. All these Mikveh were by immersion and the name of God was invoked over them as they were either self immersed or was plunged under by a baptizer. The name "ADONAI ELOHIM EHJEH" (Lord God of Salvation and Deliverance) was pronounced over the convert.

All water baptism of the New Testament have their beginning in these ancient Mikveh cleansing, purification washings of the Jews. Water baptism was essential to becoming Jewish in olden times and it is essential to becoming a Christian in the New Testament. Any doctrine on baptism that does not include the Jewish foundation of these Mikveh washings is incomplete and usually false.

Pastor Reckart

adam7gur,
If you're going to quote someone that is not part of this thread and none of us ever heard of him, how does that help?
Just because the ritual was performed on old testament believers it should have been mentioned in the old testament to convince us -not in Rabbic literature. It isn't mentioned before John the Baptist in the Bible as I'm sure you know. What is mentioned is circumcision. Everyone that was a believer in those days was to be circumcised. Even today there is a cult that demands a man be circumcised to join them. The circumcision was to remind them of what God does with the believer in circumcising the heart. Circumcision cetainly has more biblical recommendations for it than baptism. Yes Jesus was Baptized, he was also circumcised. Should we follow the Lord in circumcision? Did circumcision help a man get saved or was it done after a man was already saved?(speaking of new adult believers) In the same way, water baptism should always follow the baptism of the spirit - not to help get saved but because the baptism of the spirit is the time of salvation. The water is our symbol and reminder nowadays of our Identification with the Lord in his death, burial, and resurrection... just like circumcision used to be for old testament believers being symbolic of the heart being changed by a circumcision of the heart. Neither Baptism by the spirit nor circumcision of the heart can be physically seen so these things were done externally to show what has already happened in the believer internally.

It was Tom who brought up the Jewish Mikvah in post 426 and I thought it a good idea to gain more info about it.
The authour is not present but his writings are not hidden , they are for free in the web.I did not claim that those thoughts are mine!

From Jesus-messiah.com
Jesus said everyone must be born of the water and of the Spirit. Most Christians argue about being born of the water; does it mean being born of the birth water of a mother; or does it mean water baptism? For the most part, Christians are ignorant of the Jewish connection to water baptism. They see it as a new invention beginning with John the Baptist. This gives many to reject water and Spirit baptisms as two parts to being born again. For Apostolics, we see in Acts 2:38 the verification of water and Spirit baptisms as the born again experience. We do not need nor do we look for any other validation or proof to the meaning of Jesus in John 3:3-5. However, for those not convinced in water and Spirit baptisms of the one new birth, especially that being born of the water is water baptism: I offer the Jewish source as proof.

“The baptismal water (Mikveh) in rabbinic literature was referred to as the womb of the world, and as a convert came out of the water it was considered a new birth separating him from the pagan world. As the convert came out of these waters his status was changed and he was referred to as “a little child just born” or “a child of one day”
Pastor Reckart

Thank you Adam7gur,

Understanding these examples from OT and going forward to the NT, is helpful in edifying our walk in Christ. And I hope that Tom, homesell, and Fred will agree.
The fulfillment of Christ is far greater then what people understand in their walk in HIM. Jesus said My sheep hear my voice.

What Adam7gur has offered in (OT), and Jewish belief is compared to the (NT). It shows that, what was written in the word and Christ spoke in (Matthew 18:3).

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I have mentioned (Matthew 18:3) many times in different thread to focus on the importance of following Christ willingly, in Faith of HIS worthyness. (Eph 4:23-24 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.)

The sacrifice Christ gave us, did set us free from the curse Adam caused. It did bolt out our sins. Reality is the calling of salvation is faith in what Christ did.+ Plus it is faith in following HIS righteousness. We NOW have Choice of the Tree of Life which Adam rejected. And we can walk in Christ and HIM in us "if" we answer the call of salvation in one Baptism, in one Faith, in ONE LORD.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

It is fulfilled, no more filthy rags. Answer the call of salvation.. Christ Jesus

Hebrews 10:9-10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will (meaning = by the Will of God)we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This sanctification for us, is the body of Christ, Everyone speaks of the blood.. WELL, This is the bread we have life in.

The circumcision was to remind them of what God does with the believer in circumcising the heart. Circumcision cetainly has more biblical recommendations for it than baptism. ].

homesell,

Circumcision of the (OT) was the seal of righteousness, given under the law of sin. And true NOW, we have the circumcision of the heart in Faith of Christ. Because we are not under the law "if" we believe in Christ.

Christ fulfilled one law and brought the second law to be established.. The law of Faith

adam7gur has offered the reality of Jewish belief with (OT) bringing in the (NT).

If your point here is that must be obedient to righteousness to be saved, I have bad news for you - Read Romans 3:23. No one but Jesus has succeeded yet. If that was the gospel, it would not be much of a gospel because it would condemn us all - as the law does.

But the good news that we are not saved by our works, or our righteousness, but by His righteousness.

Let's put this idea to rest in THE WORD (James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.)

HIS righteousness that we walk in. (We were created in that image..) We were brought back to that image by Christ.

"IF" we Continue to sin, that puts us under the law(school master)

The born again spirit within us is, HIM within us, to guide us, and keep us in HIS way.

Faith Tom in the body of Christ....(1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. ) (1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers)


with = join to ( it does not mean redeemed by)

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:18)



It is interesting that you quote this, which comes as a conclusion to a section of scripture speaking against works of the law as being a path to salvation.

Are you aware that the word "baptized" also means to be identified with?

Right - "likeness" means that it is a comparison / symbolism.


YES I am aware that the likeness of Christ is baptism. DEAD to sin.. should live in righteousness.

Do you have faith in HIS strength? Do you believe you can be kept by HIS power by that faith unto salvation?

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Already done.... if we believe, if we answer the call of salvation

********
I spoke to you concerning the perfecting faith that scripture speaks of as the strong meat. It is not the milk of babes that can't go forward. Each can go forward leaving the milk for strong meat...(Hebrew 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. )

(1Peter 2:2) babes desire..

Only if God permits can you hold stedfast in strong meat. Please reference (Hebrew 6)

Hebrew 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God



Interesting that you should add baptism to this last verse when it does not say what you claim. Nowhere does it say or even suggest that baptism saves us or keeps us saved.

I have shown you differently... The idea that baptism does not save makes void the WORD of GOD..

1 Peter 2:7 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ


Lay down what man has taught and follow HIM.. Deny yourself

homesell,

Circumcision of the (OT) was the seal of righteousness, given under the law of sin. And true NOW, we have the circumcision of the heart in Faith of Christ. Because we are not under the law "if" we believe in Christ.

Christ fulfilled one law and brought the second law to be established.. The law of Faith

adam7gur has offered the reality of Jewish belief with (OT) bringing in the (NT).

There only ever has been one way to be saved, not two.

Let's put this idea to rest in THE WORD (James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.)

You just keep repeating the same things even after they have been refuted, without adding anything new. This does not even imply that we need works to be saved.

I have already responded many times to this same message that you have posted.

If you have anything new, let me know.

Adam.
Thanks very much for the post about Jws and baptism.
It is very useful and thought provoking.

sndbay,
You have made some very good points.
Thanks,Peace and kindness,
Fred

There only ever has been one way to be saved, not two.

The remark you posted is indignant to what is reflected in my post.

The point I offered is in regard to the words in (Hebrews 10:9-10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will (meaning = by the Will of God)we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. )

~In Christ

The need to be dead and be buried in Christ from the rudiments of the world, rather then remain in (satan/sin) death from the flesh, is spoken of in (Col 2:20)

Religions do minister to the flesh with intentions to convert us. Yet we know man can not save us, it is the body of Christ that sets us FREE. According to what is written, nothing of this world from man can last because everything does perish (Col 2:22)

Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

WE are born of the flesh, and Only "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).

"Whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever" (Eccl. 3:14)

Consider the source in which David could say, "Create in me a clean heart, 0 God" But creating a new heart is not the same as man's attempt at making a heart clear. The perfecting faith is created by the SPIRIT within. Not of our own accord, but by the measure of gift in accordance to the Will of God.

If we remain as filthy rags, then as in Adam all die" (1 Cor. 15:22). "The mind of the flesh is death" (Rom. 8:6). Being connected with the body, it is called "this body of death" (Rom. 7:24).

Christ saved us from the death of sin and evilness, by creating us new in HIS image. (Romans 6:4) If we walk in the light (as Christ is the light) we have fellowship in HIM (1 John 1:7)


Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Again nothing I can say or do will convert others forever. Only what was offered by the BODY of Christ creates perfection and godliness, because we can be dead in Christ, and able to raise as He did. It is God that reveals unto whom He chooses. The WORD of GOD

The remark you posted is indignant to what is reflected in my post.

The point I offered is in regard to the words in (Hebrews 10:9-10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will (meaning = by the Will of God)we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. )

~In Christ

Read it in context:

Heb 10:4-10
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God.' "

8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
NKJV

The need to be dead and be buried in Christ from the rudiments of the world, rather then remain in (satan/sin) death from the flesh, is spoken of in (Col 2:20)

Religions do minister to the flesh with intentions to convert us. Yet we know man can not save us, it is the body of Christ that sets us FREE. According to what is written, nothing of this world from man can last because everything does perish (Col 2:22)

Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Read the context:

Col 2:13-18
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
NKJV

This is in the context of the death of Christ on the cross to pay the price for our sins.

WE are born of the flesh, and Only "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).



Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

You keep repeating this ignoring what I point out repeatedly that scripture says that this is symbolic:

Rom 6:4-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

Note the word "likeness"? It means that all we are looking at is a comparison or symbolism.

Read it in context:
Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
NKJV

Tom

We have not disagreed in what Christ brought to the flesh body of man by HIS body and blood



You keep repeating this ignoring what I point out repeatedly that scripture says that this is symbolic:

Rom 6:4-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

Note the word "likeness"? It means that all we are looking at is a comparison or symbolism.

What seems to be the difference in our thoughts is the nature of man. The Holy Spirit (joined/unity/with) Christ, that will dwell within us by baptism and the born again spirit. The newness of man's nature. That which also compares with dead in Christ of the spirit, and buried from the rudiments of this world..

My studies into the perfecting Faith has listed the following as my notes. Perhaps you could reference further by using the notes I have of scripture.

What we have been given is a new nature. The "Old Man" as it is written in (Romans 6:6).. What about him? " The Old Man" was crucified with Christ. We are told he "is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph. 4:22). "The Old Man" is full of desires or lusts. These lusts are deceitful and deceiving. They are in all things contrary to God, contrary to His Spirit, and His Word compared to the new nature, the spirit, when it is once implanted within us. In this connection, it is called to salvation.

"The Outward Man"; as being that which is seen, and that which actually perishes (2 Cor. 4:16) and this is "day by day". This tells us that as long as we are in the flesh, we must suffer this "burden": and that no ordinance connected with that which perishes, can be of any avail in that domain where all is, and must be spiritual; of the Spirit.

"The Heart" the natural heart, which is "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" (Jer. 17:9) so deceitful that it constantly deceives and betrays us: so deceitful that none but God can really know it. The Lord Jesus has some "teaching about the heart" of the natural man in Matthew 15:19. "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies."

"The Carnal Mind." This aspect of the old nature is even more serious than the others. They relate rather to acts, and conditions, and character; but this relates to thoughts; to the mental activities, and reasonings and imaginations of the natural man (Rom. 8:7)

"Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Gen. 6:5)

(Rom. 8:7, 8) that this "mind of the flesh" is "Enmity against God." "Not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." And "cannot please God."

"That which is born (or, begotten) of the flesh is flesh"




POINT IN FACT: They are born of the flesh. Only "that which is born (or, begotten) of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6)

"Whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever" (Eccl. 3:14)

"Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up" (Matt. 15:13)

These words were spoken by the Lord to those whose religion was of the flesh, and consisted in washings and making long prayers; to those who honoured God with their lips, and supposed that man was defiled by "that which goeth into the mouth" (Matt 5:11)

It was spoken concerning the "Scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem", the place of religious observances (Matt 5:1)

And it is spoken today to all who "teach for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt 5:9)

Who make men the religion, by feedings of the flesh, and seek to make them holy by saying "Touch not, taste not, handle not" (Col. 2:21)

The nature of the old man cannot be changed. "It is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." This forever settles the matter for all who are subject to the Word of God in (Romans 8:7)



POINT OF FACT: "He That Soweth To His Flesh Shall Of The Flesh Reap Corruption" (Gal. 6:8)

All efforts to improve the flesh, all provision made for the flesh, all ordinances connected with the flesh, all end in corruption and death: all "perish with the using" (Col. 2:22)

Tom what do we need? We need the One Baptism. The Born again of the Spirit. That comes from the confessed faith in Christ Jesus, and the descend gift of the Holy Spirit. This can create the newness of life within us all.

So this new nature, being divine in its origin, is called theia phusis, Divine Nature (2 Pet. 1:4)

The New Man (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10). This is opposite to "the old man". This New Man, being entirely in the likenss of Christ, is called "a new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15).

And "according to the image/righteousness of HIM that created him" (Col. 3:10)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation" (Gal. 4:15; Co1. 3:10, 11).

So can we acknowledge that in this connection the new nature is called to salvation? YES ?

"The Inward Man" (Rom. 7:22; 2 Cor. 4:16; Eph. 3:16). This is the opposite of "the outward man" which perishes day by day, while this "inward man is renewed day by day" REJOICE!!!

We are being nourished and replenished day by day with grace and strength by the Holy Spirit; so that Christ can dwell in the heart by faith (Eph. 3:16)

We learn something of His love which passeth knowledge, and are filled with all the fulness of God (Eph5:19)(Romans 3:27)

Remember Apostle Paul saying (and all who have like precious faith) to cry out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death" "I thank God, He will deliver me through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 7:24). REJOICE!!!

The Mind (Rom. 7:23, 25) The word here used for "the mind" is nous meaning the new nature. This "mind" serves the law of God (Rom. 7:25) This is the law of Faith in (Eph 4:4-5) (Romans 3:28)The law of God.

And all this because God has created within us a new nature, which He calls pneuma-Christou. However, here on earth, it is our privilege to share His rejection. "The world knows us not because it knew Him not" (1 John 3:1)


Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Hey guys, just checking in and I see you are still at it. I can just see God, up in heaven shaking his head, Probably thinking, I would have never inspired this bible thing if I knew it would bring out the worst in people. Each one so determined to show the other one wrong. Just how important do you think this play on words that you are arguing about really is? Important enough to fight over?
I think not.

What seems to be the difference in our thoughts is the nature of man. The Holy Spirit (joined/unity/with) Christ, that will dwell within us by baptism and the born again spirit.

There - you added baptism into this which is not in scripture. If you would just focus on addressing that point rather than longer and longer posts that largely repeat the same passages that you have quoted time and time again, and I have refuted time and time again, then we might have something to discuss.

Otherwise we are just going around in circles. Maybe it's time for the thread to be closed.

There - you added baptism into this which is not in scripture.




Biptism is the gift of the Holy Spirit and being buried with Christ (1 Peter 3:20-21 Acts 2:38 Romans 6:4)

Born Again ((John 3:5-6))


Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


~child of God

Biptism is the gift of the Holy Spirit and being buried with Christ (1 Peter 3:20-21 Acts 2:38 Romans 6:4)

Born Again ((John 3:5-6))

Same old, same old - these arguments were already refuted. Like I said, we are going around in circles.

Tj3,
Correction...
In my view and that of others you attempted to refute them but failed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
Correction.....
In my view and that of others you attempted to refute them but failed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Ha ha , Fred, you can believe it as wish. The facts will not change, though.

Tj3,
Right, and the facts are that you CAN lose your salvation just as Jesus and the bible says.
Fred

Tj3,
Right, and the facts are that you CAN lose your salvation just as Jesus and the bible says.
Fred

Fred,

Salvation is a calling from God.. God will not take the calling away..

However if we don't answer the calling.. Then we don't have what God sent in HIS calling..

1. To answer the calling we hold stedfast in One God, Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. = One Lord

2. To answer the calling we confess Christ Jesus as the begotten Son of God = ONE FAITH

3. To answer the calling we are bapized in Christ = One Baptism

The answered call, by the (law of faith) in three in "ONE"


The question is: Do you and others believe that to lose salvation, is the calling not answered?


( One Baptism being a calling that requires an the answer, appears to be the disagreement between Tj3 and myself. )

Tj3,
Right, and the facts are that you CAN lose your salvation just as Jesus and the bible says.
Fred

Fred,

You keep telling us that you can stop being saved without knowing it, but I have yet to see a verse that says that. You have shown verses that say that we can reject our salvation, and I agree that is possible, but where are the references that show is it possible to stop being saved without knowing it, or accidentally?

( One Baptism being a calling that requires an the answer, appears to be the disagreement between Tj3 and myself. )[/B]

sndbay,

Let's be accurate. That is NOT the disagreement. The disagreement is what that ONE baptism is. You include water, I say that it is the Holy Spirit alone because that is the ONLY baptism which scripture says that 100% of all believers must have.

sndbay,

Let's be accurate. That is NOT the disagreement. The disagreement is what that ONE baptism is. You include water, I say that it is the Holy Spirit alone because that is the ONLY baptism which scripture says that 100% of all believers must have.

Okay Tom... I disagree with you on water

I include water, because it is in the likeness of the Noah, when the water did save 8 souls from evil. Water is in that like figure of washing away the surrounding evil and wickedness.. It will cover or bury us in Christ, and God's hand of fire will nourished and protect us.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I believe Water was the baptism Christ suffered unto us with John.

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.


Matthew 20:23 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

sndbay,

I say that it is the Holy Spirit alone because that is the ONLY baptism which scripture says that 100&#37; of all believers must have.


Tom, Measures according to HIS Will are given. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given in different measures.

1 Cr 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.


Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Proverbs 10:6 A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent.

sndbay,

I say that it is the Holy Spirit alone because that is the ONLY baptism which scripture says that 100&#37; of all believers must have.

So what measure of the spiritual gifts would each have that do not follow HIS steps?


Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Christ Jesus is said to be full of the HOLY SPIRIT. (Luke 4:1)

In (Act 6) it speaks of full faith and Holy Spirit

Okay Tom... I disagree with you on water

I include water, because it is in the likeness of the Noah, when the water did save 8 souls from evil.

"Likeness" - right. Likeness means symbolism.


Water is in that like figure of washing away the surrounding evil and wickedness..

A "like figure" which is symbolism.

So what measure of the spiritual gifts would each have that do not follow HIS steps?

It depends upon what you mean by "follow Him". If you mean "saved", then scripture says none. That is a significant problem for you when we read Acts 10:47.

It depends upon what you mean by "follow Him". If you mean "saved",, then scripture says none. That is a significant problem for you when we read Acts 10:47.

No, because this says baptize them..(with water)

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

"Likeness" - right. Likeness means symbolism.



A "like figure" which is symbolism.

A likeness in that it too SAVED, yes being symbolism to being saved by water. (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)

Symbolism:

The flesh lives and breathes air of sin, and the water that saves is the gift of the Holy Spirit that is covered over us. Sin can't breath...sin can't live...

Buried with Christ, and Christ had paid for our sins on the cross


Discussion Finished

No, because this says baptize them..(with water)

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

AFTER they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Interesting how you omitted that part of the passage.

Acts 10:47-48
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
NKJV


Symbolism:

The flesh lives and breathes air of sin, and the water that saves is the gift of the Holy Spirit that is covered over us. Sin can't breath...sin can't live...

Buried with Christ, and Christ had paid for our sins on the cross

Right - water in baptism is symbolic - we agree.

AFTER they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Interesting how you omitted that part of the passage.

Not at all necessary because you had already claimed the presence of the Holy Spirit .. I claim the measure in gifts of the Holy Spirit is different. Scripture tells us measures according to God's Will are giving.

The Gentiles went on to be baptized as command because the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT in baptism includes the SAVING WATER... ( Living Water)



Right - water in baptism is symbolic - we agree.

The Holy Spirit's gift of Saving Water in baptism is as symbolic as the LIVING WATER

Now do we agree?

Not at all necessary because you had already claimed the presence of the Holy Spirit.. I claim the measure in gifts of the Holy Spirit is different. Scripture tells us measures according to God's Will are giving.

So what is your point? Scripture says that ONLY the saved can have the Holy Spirit.


The Gentiles went on to be baptized as command

Yes, and no one is saying not to be baptized.


because the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT in baptism includes the SAVING WATER... ( Living Water)

You are adding to scripture. You won't find this given as the reason anywhere in Acts 10.


The Holy Spirit's gift of Saving Water in baptism is as symbolic as the LIVING WATER

You again add to scripture because water of baptism is nowhere called "living water". That phrase is used six places in scripture:

The Old Testament References are:

1) Song 4:12-15

12 A garden enclosed Is my sister, my spouse, A spring shut up, A fountain sealed. 13 Your plants are an orchard of pomegranates With pleasant fruits,
Fragrant henna with spikenard, 14 Spikenard and saffron, Calamus and cinnamon, With all trees of frankincense, Myrrh and aloes, With all the chief spices-- 15 A fountain of gardens, A well of living waters, And streams from Lebanon.
NKJV

Unless you think that we must all go to Lebanon to be baptized, this clearly has nothing to do with baptism.

2) Jer 2:12-13

12 Be astonished, O heavens, at this, And be horribly afraid; Be very desolate," says the LORD. 13 "For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns--broken cisterns that can hold no water.
NKJV

The living waters here is defined as God Himself, not water of baptism.

3) Jer 17:13

13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed. "Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, Because they have forsaken the LORD, The fountain of living waters."
NKJV

Once again, it is shown to be God Himself, not the water of baptism.

4) Zech 14:6-9

6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the LORD-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. 8 And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. 9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-- "The LORD is one," And His name one.
NKJV

The living waters are to flow from God Himself (Jesus) when He rules directly from Jersualem. The living waters are from God Himself, not water of baptism.

And the last two are from the New Testament:

1) John 4:8-15

9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. 10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." 11 The woman said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?" 13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."
NKJV

Jesus makes a clear distinction here between ordinary water and the living water that He gives. Once again, the living water comes from God Himself.

2) John 7:38-39

38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

The living water here comes out of the believer and it is specifically spoken of as being the Holy Spirit. Once again, the living water is God.

So it is clear that the "living water" is God. To suggest that ordinary water used in a baptismal font is "living water" is a very dangerous teaching indeed, and is not found anywhere in scripture.

The necessity or purpose that Christ be suffered on the cross, in order to open thoroughly and set before (one) in teaching that He died and raised again. (Acts 17:3)

The element of that cross is evidence to the idenity of dead, buried, and did raise again.

And the necessity or purpose, is that Christ be suffered in baptism with open witness of heaven, and set before(one) teaching that we die with HIm, are buried, and able to raise as He raised.

(Romans 6:4)
(1 Peter 2:21)
(1 Peter 3:18)
(Col 2:12)

The element of that water is evidence to the idenity of died, buried, and able to raise as He raised.

One Faith/Christ the Living Water (John 4:10)
One Baptism/Holy Spirit the Saving Water (Romans 6:3-4-5)
One Lord (Eph 4:6 ) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Roman 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

Romans 6:6-10 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.



1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


Symbolism:The Saving Water, The Living Water, all in the hands of God.
Father,Son,Holy Spirit


Tom, my part in this discussion is over...

The necessity or purpose that Christ be suffered on the cross, in order to open thoroughly and set before (one) in teaching that He died and raised again. (Acts 17:3)

The necessity of Jesus to die on the cross was to pay the price for our sins:

Rev 1:5-6
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV

His sacrifice was complete on the cross:

Heb 10:12-15
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

If the one sacrifice perfect forever those who are being sanctified, then nothing more was required for our salvation. And you will find nothing else in scripture. Note how many times you were required to add words to what scripture said, "baptism" and "living water" for examples. That is because scripture simply does not support your doctrine of baptismal regeneration.


The element of that cross is evidence to the idenity of dead, buried, and did raise again.

And the necessity or purpose, is that Christ be suffered in baptism with open witness of heaven, and set before(one) teaching that we die with HIm, are buried, and able to raise as He raised.

Once again, this is the mikveh, a ritual ceremony that we find in the Old Testament. It was not necessary for salvation. If you say that it is then that is suggesting that Jesus needed to be saved of His sins, which would mean that He would not be qualified as our saviour, nor would He be God. The mikveh along with other rituals did nothing for salvation, but were simply acts of obedience to God, being done as a prophetic act of the coming of the sacrifice that Jesus was to make on the cross:

Heb 9:9-10
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
NKJV

Therefore being symbolic, it did nothing for salvation. As stated previous if it was done to make Jesus righteous, then Jesus was a sinner which would mean that gospel is a fake. On the other hand, if Jesus did it for the purposes of being obedient to a prophetic ritual, then by so doing He ensured that He remained righteousness by not committing a sin of omission.



One Baptism/Holy Spirit the Saving Water

There is on ONE baptism and only ONE saving water. It is not water that we drink, but as you nicely, but inadvertently pointed out in the prior message, that living water, saving water is that of the Holy Spirit:

Jer 2:13
13 "For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters,
And hewn themselves cisterns--broken cisterns that can hold no water.
NKJV

Jer 17:13
13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed.
"Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth,
Because they have forsaken the LORD, The fountain of living waters."
NKJV

That is why we are told in John 7:39 and others that the baptism is that of the Holy Spirit. Note in Jer 2:13, the people turned away from the living water, and tried digging cisterns to get ordinary water. That is what is happening when people look to water for their salvation instead of the true living waters that come from the Holy Spirit which we receive when we are saved through the cross.

John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

Why do people look to ordinary water for salvation, for the ONE baptism when God offers us the living waters of the Holy Spirit?

Tj3,
I did provide the verse.
Here it is again.
Matthew 6: 14. "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15. "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Tom as you know your sins MUST be forgiven if you are to go into heaven.
As stated before if for some reason a person who was saved refuses to forgive someone who has sinned against him/her then his/her sin will not be forgiven and salvation is lost.
It is as simple as that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3,
I did provide the verse.
Here it is again.
Matthew 6: 14. "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15. "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Tom as you know your sins MUST be forgiven if you are to go into heaven.
As stated before if for some reason a person who was saved refuses to forgive someone who has sinned against him/her then his/her sin will not be forgiven and salvation is lost.
It is as simple as that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Putting aside any interpretations of this, are you saying that a person will have no knowledge of whether they have forgiven someone or not?

Tj3,
I am saying that IF for some reason a person REFUSES to forgive someone of sin or sins against that person then that person is NOT forgiven just as Jesus said.
Fred.

Tj3,
I am saying that IF for some reason a person REFUSES to forgive someone of sin or sins against that person then that person is NOT forgiven just as Jesus said.
Fred.

Fred,

That does not answer the question. What I asked was, and I quote:

------------------------
Fred,

You keep telling us that you can stop being saved without knowing it, but I have yet to see a verse that says that. You have shown verses that say that we can reject our salvation, and I agree that is possible, but where are the references that show is it possible to stop being saved without knowing it, or accidentally?
------------------------

Tom as you know your sins MUST be forgiven if you are to go into heaven.
As stated before if for some reason a person who was saved refuses to forgive someone who has sinned against him/her then his/her sin will not be forgiven and salvation is lost.
It is as simple as that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, if this person does not forgive, and is not of a loving nature, this person is not born of the spirit.

They are born of the flesh. Only "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).

Roman 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

No one can find salvation, salvation is from God, salvation is Christ... If we Answer the call of salvation by confessed (one Faith) in Christ Jesus, and (one Baptism)of Holy Spirit, knowing there is (One Lord) who is One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Then: Whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever" (Eccl. 3:14)


"In Adam all sin and die" (1 Cor. 15:22). "The mind of the flesh is death" (Rom. 8:6). Being connected with the body, it is called "this body of death" (Rom. 7:24).

Christ ended that death, by creating us new in HIS image.(Romans 6:4) If we walk in the light (as Christ is the light) we have fellowship in HIM (1 John 1:7)

Unless you think that we must all go to Lebanon to be baptized, this clearly has nothing to do with baptism.

The living waters here is defined as God Himself, not water of baptism.

Once again, it is shown to be God Himself, not the water of baptism.

The living water here comes out of the believer and it is specifically spoken of as being the Holy Spirit. Once again, the living water is God.

So it is clear that the "living water" is God. To suggest that ordinary water used in a baptismal font is "living water" is a very dangerous teaching indeed, and is not found anywhere in scripture.

Never is the actually water baptism the work of man, we are not baptized by men. We are baptized in a saving water by the Holy Spirit, the hand of God. Scripture reference has been given several times... of the likeness, like figure and how it does SAVE

Reality check: One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Roman 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:



Christ begotten of God
Christ called to the cross (set free and forgiven)
The element of that cross is evidence to the idenity of dead, buried, and did raise again.


We are begotten of flesh
We are called to be baptism in water (salvation)
The element of that water in baptism is evidence to the idenity of died, buried, and able to raise as He raised.


1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Not that we suffer on a cross, it was HIS calling, once done... Finished!


But that we suffer in water baptism, it is our calling to salvation... reborn, not of the flesh but of the spirit ... Finished in the hands of God!

Never is the actually water baptism the work of man, we are not baptized by men.

That is where you are wrong. It is a work of men. Men can baptize with water whether the person is a believer or not. The whole event is a work of man.

Once again, you are going beyond and adding to scripture. Nowhere does scripture says that water baptism is a work of God.


We are baptized in a saving water by the Holy Spirit, the hand of God[/B]. Scripture reference has been given several times... of the likeness, like figure and how it does SAVE

"Likeness" means that baptism is symbolic, something that you are denying. You are saying that it actually saves.

Secondly, the reference is "saving water" is something that you are adding to scripture. Once again, it is not found in scripture.

You are turning around this symbolic act which is a representation of what has happened to the person when he was saved, and making it a requirement for salvation,

So what is it coming down to, is that you believe in a doctrine, the basis of which is outside of scripture. You can believe as you wish, but you cannot say it is scriptural.

Remember there is ONE baptism and we see it in Acts 10:47 where the person received the Holy Spirit BEFORE receiving water baptism.

That is where you are wrong. It is a work of men. Men can baptize with water whether the person is a believer or not. The whole event is a work of man.

Reality check: Who is power and dominion over all things?
Who can give man delusion ?
Believe as you may, I rest in Christ having power and dominion over all. I believe in the Holy Spirit in Baptism, that does not leave us in the bubble air for flesh in this world, BUT does put us in a world with Christ, not this wolrd of sin. A nourishing bubble like a womb of water where sin can't live, where we are covered in HIS righteousness. Because we living in the spirit, and born of that spirit in likeness to Christ. (1 John 5:6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. )

John 17:13-17 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

The Law of Faith..
One LORD: One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.




Once again, you are going beyond and adding to scripture. Nowhere does scripture says that water baptism is a work of God.

One Faith... in who Christ Jesus is and HIS power and dominion over all




"Likeness" means that baptism is symbolic, something that you are denying. You are saying that it actually saves.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:



Secondly, the reference is "saving water" is something that you are adding to scripture. Once again, it is not found in scripture.

You are turning around this symbolic act which is a representation of what has happened to the person when he was saved, and making it a requirement for salvation,
We are begotten of flesh
We are called to be baptism in water (salvation)
The element of that water in baptism is evidence to the idenity of died, buried, and able to raise as He raised.

Deny this if you wish.. persecute me if you wish.. it is the WORD of GOD



So what is it coming down to, is that you believe in a doctrine, the basis of which is outside of scripture. You can believe as you wish, but you cannot say it is scriptural.

I believe in the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT.. I believe in being born of the SPIRIT. .. I believe dominion and power in Christ over this world



Remember there is ONE baptism and we see it in Acts 10:47 where the person received the Holy Spirit BEFORE receiving water baptism.

The Holy Spirit is giving in accordance of measures which is God's Will. The fullness of the Holy Spirit or even the Baptism gift of the HOLY SPIRIT, are measures in accordance to God's Will

Reality check: Who is power and dominion over all things?
Who can give man delusion ?
Believe as you may, I rest in Christ having power and dominion over all.

Agreed.


I believe in the Holy Spirit in Baptism, that does not leave us in the bubble air for flesh in this world, BUT does put us in a world with Christ, not this wolrd of sin.

I understand that you believe it - but my point is that the belief in water bringing salvation is not scriptural. Over and over again you had to add to what scripture says when trying to make a point. That should be a warning sign.



1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This is what I mean by you continually repeating something which has been refuted many times. The passage itself shows specifically that baptism is ONLY symbolic, and yet when you quote this, you avoid that part of the passage, effectively taking it out of context.


We are begotten of flesh
We are called to be baptism in water (salvation)
The element of that water in baptism is evidence to the idenity of died, buried, and able to raise as He raised.

Note that once again you must add to scripture to make your point? Scripture says nowhere that we are "...called to be baptism in water (salvation)", as you claim.

Scripture says nowhere that we are "...called to be baptism in water (salvation)", as you claim.

We are all called to be spiritually minded. Born of the spirit.. Establish the Law of Faith, it is the Law of God, it is what we are called to answer. We are called to follow Christ steps
(1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps)

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Otherwise: you are in reference of that spoken of in scripture as (Gal 4:9) and should review thr (Gal 4:28)

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

We are all called to be spiritually minded. Born of the spirit.. Establish the Law of Faith, it is the Law of God, it is what we are called to answer.

Okay so far.


Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Just like those in Acts 10:47 who had received the Holy Spirit before being water baptized.


Otherwise: you are in reference of that spoken of in scripture as (Gal 4:9) and should review thr (Gal 4:28)

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

You mean like this that speaks of being born according to the Spirit like those in Acts 10:47?

Gal 4:28-29

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
NKJV

Somebody, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THING. These arguments are reflecting badly on christians and christianity needs all the help it can get. As I posted in another thread, T J had to start another war of words that closed the thread very early and the word he was fighting about did not make a bit of difference in the big picture. Petty, petty, petty...

Somebody, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THING. These arguments are reflecting badly on christians and christianity needs all the help it can get.

Christianity needs no help. It has survived 2000 years (through all sorts of attacks from various groups, including the inquisition) nicely without the need of your intervention!


As I posted in another thread, T J had to start another war of words that closed the thread very early and the word he was fighting about did not make a bit of difference in the big picture. Petty, petty, petty...
What closes most threads is when someone starts abusive or demeaning remarks or finger pointing against another person (like the comments you posted above)

Somebody, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THING. These arguments are reflecting badly on christians and christianity needs all the help it can get. As I posted in another thread, T J had to start another war of words that closed the thread very early and the word he was fighting about did not make a bit of difference in the big picture. petty, petty, petty......

Had a feeling you would disagree to this. Didn't take you very long either. Sorry, I still believe all this bickering is petty. And you did do the same thing in that other thread. It's like you just want to argue or something.

Lasted a lot longer than I thought it would,

Closed