I've lots of Ideas about God and his existence, but still I'm confused about some factors for proving his existence and got some questions which sounds logical, for this I've decided to know about your ideas, please if you believe in God or not, give me your reasons about it!

Which things are you confused about?

Morteza,
Why not state your ideas and I can explain how I see it as a believer in the existence of an Almighty.

I have difficulty in proving myself that humanity has got the ability to decide! There's some points which sounds to me logical and acceptable that WE don't have the ability of choosing! Everything that we do, is not in our hands! I think we are completely controlled by a person! The worse thing is I'm not good at english to explain more about my thoughts! 2 month later I'll get to 18, I have contemplated on human's life since I was 13! Up to now, I have become like a stupid guy! I don't have any motivation! I got bad marks at high school because of nihilism! I had and I still have some nihilistic ideas about life! I think I'm going to loose my life! I had lots of ideas about my future. On those days I was always thinking of astronomy, learning math, and philosophy! After a while I thought I had some discoveries in math and philosophy, for instance 2 years ago I understood that mathematic can not explain realities! At that time I didn't know that I was thinking on Fuzzy Logic...

I don't really know what to do...

One cannot prove the existence of something unseen - it's a matter of faith to believe in a god.

I have difficulty in proving myself that humanity has got the ability to decide! there's some points which sounds to me logical and acceptable that WE dont have the ability of choosing!
I dont really know what to do....

About your nihilistic ideas on life,are they destructive thoughts?I mean thinking of not existing because you believe there is no choice?

It is sometimes good to think deeply about life and why we do exist.
As you said you have nihilistic ideas about life,I am assuming you do not believe in any religion?

One certain thing about everyone who is alive at this moment of time is that they will die.. someday.We do not know when or how.
Now from this moment till we breathe our last,what are we going to do?That is the question.
Are we going to live life in our room day in and day out without earning a living?If we are not earning a living there has to be some way that there is an income either by renting property or family business or someone who will look after us.Now if someone else is working so you could exist,there has to be some way you are repaying that person by kind or deed.
Or if you are going to earn a living then there is a need to learn some sort of skill whether manual or if working on a machine then how the machinery works.And to learn skills we again need financial help to enroll in classes.
See the practical needs of living?One thing leads to another and if you are living a life without totally depending on another person like a parasite then you are doing yourself and the whole community a favour.

Making choices, when we wake up each day,we have the choice of not getting up,or getting up and not brushing our teeth or having breakfast.The things we do not have the power to control are the weakness in our body that it needs food and water to sustain itself,that our teeth weakens when it is unclean.

And if we choose to go to work or school,what we cannot control is the weather,the bus/train being on time,accidents along the way that may delay us.

We chose to get to a certain destination but what we face along the way to that destination or after we reach that destination we do not have a choice in,
But we do have the choice of how we face each incident.Whether we just give up or think of alternatives, maybe take a taxi today,or an umbrella or call in sick so as not to lose our job.

Our choices have consequences,most choices we make if it concerns breaking the laws of the country/city/state we are in,we will be punished because it is the law.The law states that certain acts are punishable and once you cross a line you have no control of where you end up.
Some may escape legal punishment in this life(I will come to that point later as per what I believe if you need to know).Some live their whole lives breaking the law and escaping punishment while others who are innocent may get caught up in places when they have not been exactly breaking the law.

Each of the things we do in this life has consequences,but this does not mean that the person next to me or above me in hierarchy(sp) is actually controlling me,it just means that each commumity has to have laws that govern all of the people so that there maybe order in the community,that each person has his or her rightful place in the community.For example if the bus/train/taxi drivers were to go on strike one day,the whole community crumbles as everyone is dependent on getting to places in time using the transport system.

If the teachers were to go on strike,the whole education system will go haywire as there are syllabuses required to be finished in any given year in order for the students to be able to sit for their exams.

Each person has his or her place in the community which is necessary for the whole function of society.
If the garbage picker is on strike imagine the diseases that would attack the community because of filthy neighbourhoods.
Or if a neighbour who has given a cat to be taken care is not taken care of or fed on time,the cat may die or suffer and this suffering in turn will affect the owner of the cat.The relationship between the owner of the cat and the person who was supposed to take care of it will suffer too.
These are just a few examples of why a person has certain responsibilities as part of the larger community,of the family,of the household,of taking care of ones own body etc.

Now comes the question of life after death.If you think that nothing exists beyond death then there is no need to work for a life after.This does not necessarily mean that there isn't a life after death.

Now if you think there just might be a life after death,you wonder what should you do for that life.Now this would lead you to research religions,and discerning what is right and wrong and what will help you in a life after death.

I have my own beliefs which I believe to be the truth,and obviously I will recommend knowing it,but it is your search and any questions you have in your quest if I can help,I will be glad to help whether it is regarding my beliefs or becoming a better person or finding your niche in the society or as a citizen of the world.

Good Luck to you and never stop searching.:)

firmbeliever thanks an ocean for your kind, nice, clear speaches, that was so pleasant to me!
Now I should tel you much more about myself, firmbeliever, my parents are Muslims and they say their daily prayers and they believe in God. I'm also familiar with my parent's religion, I've read Qur'an for many times and I have found Qur'an's sayings so strong! Qur'an has got lots of things to say for having a good life in this world! I myself believe that Qur'an has got great meanings which are all for having a good and healthy life However I'm not a Muslim, but still I believe that Qur'an is the greatest guidance for humanity, it has lots of things about our life's ups and downs, it talks about our responsibilies in the society, it explains about family and its rules! It also gives you a lot of information about life! It has some unbeleiveable things which leads to astonishment, for example one of the most obvious and clear astonishing things for us is, it has talked about fingerprint 1400 years ago while humanbeing has recently discovered his fingerprint! And it always invites people to learn more about science. It has written there that learning is compulsory for all Muslims, they must learn new things about Sciences. If you take a look at Islum's history, you will find my all sayings true about Qur'an! Qur'an believes that humanbeing has got wisdom to choose his own way in his life, and he is only responsible for his deeds, Qur'an says we should choose our way with our own understanding and we are force to use our wisdom for choosing the right or wrong! In Islum, no one can force other people to do a work by force, there's a strong emphasis on human's wisdom in Islum! And if anyone wants to judge about Islum by its believers in an negative manner, we should doubt about his or her wosdom and understanding!
Up to now, I think I have talked enough about my background on having a religion. I'm not a fanatic or a stupid guy who denies everything just because he thinks he is absolutely right!
I'm 17 and I have never ever drank any alcoholic drinks just because I believe its scientifically harmful for my body! Not just because my parents don't drink, I just don't do that because I know it hurts my brain and my power of thinking! (thats the only reason), I have lots of frineds whom they drink and I hang out with them without any attention on the thing which they do! I had no sex till now! I always invite my friends to the right thing, I always have debates on every aspects of life with people!
And about our choice ability, I should ask you one question! What is the reason that you sudenly choose to do a work or for example you are always sad and depressed but all of a sudden you try to be happy. Can you tel me why or how you choosed to be happy? What gave you that energy? Where does that energy came from?

Maybe this thread should be moved from Philosophy to Islam.

firmbeliever thanks an ocean for your kind, nice, clear speaches, that was so pleasent to me!
now I should tel you much more about myself, firmbeliever, my parents are Muslims and they say their daily prayers and they believe in God. I'm also familiar with my parent's religion, I've read Qur'an for many times and I have found Qur'an's sayings so strong!

I'm 17 and I have never ever drank any alchoholic drinks just because I believe its scientifically harmful for my body! not just because my parents dont drink, I just dont do that because I know it hurts my brain and my power of thinking! (thats the only reason), I have lots of frineds whom they drink and I hang out with them without any attention on the thing which they do! I had no sex till now! I always invite my friends to the right thing, I always have debates on every aspects of life with people!

.....about our choice ability, I should ask you one question! what is the reason that you sudenly choose to do a work or for example you are always sad and depressed but all of a sudden you try to be happy. can you tel me why or how you choosed to be happy? what gave you that energy? where does that energy came from?

Morteza,
Thank you for the compliments.:)

And it is wonderful to hear that you have read the Quran and understand it well.It is also great that you keep yourself healthy and fit and not follow the crowd but keep to your own values.

For one thing I am more of a realist and always know within me that it is in my hands whether I want to change my mood or not.

All of us face difficulties in different degress but to each individual it seems very hard to get over some obstacles.For me my moods are sometimes sad but what makes me come out of it is the knowledge that it will not always be this way or the moment that made me sad will pass.
The other thing that gets me out of it is that I have a family,a child who needs me to help her be the best she can and if I am to help her I have to be strong and face trials the best I can.

The energy to be happy is within me, sometimes I tend to forget that strength and sadness overwhelms but soon as I realise that life itself is not as bad as it is for someone else.
For example,here on the Desk I find so many people going through such hardships and makes me realise that I don't have it so bad.

Don't get me wrong,but it isn't that I am always out of my sad/bad moods in an instant,but it is easier knowing that this life is not forever and the knowledge that each of us has tests and trials of different kinds.


Maybe this thread should be moved from Philosophy to Islam.
That is a good suggestion,if Morteza wishes to move to the Islam board I have no problems with it.:)

You can. We did in Philosophy class:

Proof
The grass is green
If the grass is green then God exists

God exists. Q.E.D.

Suppose all of the human being is dead on earth by his nuclear power or something like an atomic bomb! What will happen then? Nature will continue to its existence or God will end up this world?

(I want you to think on this question and then write down your idea, notice that this is not a simple question!)

If humans kill themselves with atomic bombs then they are indeed all dead. If some areas of earth remain unscorched them life may begin slowly there. Why do you think a god would end the world for man's stupidity?

If you read Rev you will find that in the end the entire world will end up being destroyed. So yes in the end God does end the world.

The Bible says the earth will never pass away.
When it says the world will be destroyed it means more like life as we know it --all the pain, suffering and sorrow
The earth will be made new (sort of like the Jehovah Witnesses say but not quite the way they say)
I believe God exists because it is as real to me as knowing my best friend from years ago lives 30 miles away even though I rarely see her.
Also it makes more sense that somebody put a universe together that has structured DNA and all that could not have come together without thought. That would be like taking a can of paint and dumping it and there is a magnificent safari painting. Creation takes a creator

The Bible says God took the unseen to make the things we do see. DNA, atoms, molecules made everything. People say that man wrote the Bible but how would man then know about the unseen things that comprise the seen?

Also everything is made of energy and energy can not die it goes on in some form or another. Ice, to liquid, to vapor,.

This is an interesting site that you might like
Science and the Bible (http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml)

While all this is interesting God said blessed are they that believe by faith.

Hebrews 11
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring[b] will be reckoned."[c] 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.

23By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.

24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea[d] as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[e]

32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

I've lots of Ideas about God and his existance, but still I'm confused about some factors for proving his existance and got some questions which sounds logical, for this I've decided to know about your ideas, please if you believe in God or not, give me your reasons about it!

Your search for the proof of God can only come from yourself. By definition, there can be no objective evidence. But subjective evidence is all around for those who believe. They see the hand of God in every molecule of the universe. From your posts, you apparently believe in God. That is enough 'evidence' for some. I read in your posts some confusion, though, on either what god to believe in, or how your faith can manifest itself. This is something only you can decide. I urge you to study the beliefs of others, including the ideas of those who do not believe, so that you can make an informed choice. I will not try to talk you out of any particular belief system, but I urge you to study carefully.

The Qur'an and the Bible (some of the Old and most of the New Testament) are similar in the ideas on how one should behave or treat others. The main difference as I see it is in the history and procedures for showing belief (and, of course, the divinity of Jesus). It is for you to decide which specifics are right for you.

Full disclosure: I do not believe in any god. If you would like me to explain how this came to be, just ask.

supose all of the human being is dead on earth by his nuclear power or some thing like an atomic bomb! what will happen then? nature will continue to its existence or God will end up this world?

(I want you to think on this question and then write down your idea, notice that this is not a simple question!)

I do believe that the earth will end.
Whether it will cease to exist after man tries to destroy it by themselves or if it will reach the end of its appointed time of existence before man completely destroys it, this I do not know.
Or maybe man will cease to exist before the end of the world.

I believe that as the earth was created so will it end,that is by the will of the Almighty.

I've lots of Ideas about God and his existance, but still I'm confused about some factors for proving his existance and got some questions which sounds logical, for this I've decided to know about your ideas, please if you believe in God or not, give me your reasons about it!
I am not religious, but I have studied Philosophy for 2 years now and I do know a strong argument for his existence, called the Ontalogical Argument. It works on the accepetance of four statements.
1) God by definition is the most powerful and best thing in the world. (this cannot be disputed because we all know the word God and what its true definition is)
2) Reality is better than Imaginary things or thoughts. e.g. the thought of an amazing meal is not as good as actually having it.
3)God exists in our thoughts and imagination. (this cannot be disputed because we are talking about him now)
4) Therefore, if God is the best thing in the world and reality is better than imagination, to be the best thing in the world God must be real. Or he is not the God that his definition claims he is.

It's quite a complicated theory, but one that cannot well argued against.
I do not believe in God, but I think it is a very good argument and respect the person that thought it up.

Cattie thanks a lot for your descriptions and I liked your philosophical ideas about this matter. But still there's some realities which is not deniable which makes this more ambiguous. For example in Qur'an (Islum's holy book) has got some real things which is not really really deniable! If we consider the progress of the science in history, we can't say that qur'an is written by the human being! I mean there are some factors that don't allow ou to think that God is imaginary! So here we can't find him imaginary! And cattie what do you thing of this?

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.
How can we say that the Qur'an is not written by a human being?
Im sorry but as I am from the UK I have very little knowledge of the exact scriptures from the Qur'an.

From what I understand, every scripture in the world is written by humans, which is why we often get such an overlap in religious beliefs, due to the traveling of humans around the world and the stories re-told and re-told.
X

Oh, I think I understand your point.
Yes, that is what I was saying according to this argument God must be real
Because if we can imagine him.
And we think that reality is better than imagination.
For God to be the best thing in the world (and real is better than imaginary)
God must be real.
X

Cattie thanks a lot for your descriptions and I liked your philosophical ideas about this matter. but still theres some realities which is not deniable which makes this more ambiguous. for example in Qur'an (Islum's holy book) has got some real things which is not realy realy deniable! if we consider the progress of the science in history, we can't say that qur'an is writen by the human being! I mean there are some factors that dont allow ou to think that God is imaginary! so here we can't find him imaginary!


Morteza,
I am a bit confused here now.

You say you believe the Quran to be true,yet you do not believe in a Creator?
How much of the Quran do you believe and which do you have doubts about or make you doubtful of a Creator?


I've lots of Ideas about God and his existance
I would love to hear your ideas if you do not mind sharing them,maybe there is some I might be able to shed some light on.

Mort,

There is *no proof* that there is such a god as the gods of Judaism, Chrisitanity or Islam. These religions developed in one respect as a way to control the illiterate masses of long ago.

Many people who have been indoctrinated into believing in invisible entities in their childhood enjoy and find comfort in believing as adults in the face of an uncertain and violent world.

Beat wishes,

Look up "How can we prove the Bible is factual" post
On this site.

I offer many proofs. From mathematics, science, et cetera.

You proved the bible is factual using mathematics? This I would like to see!

There are several areas of math that prove the bible in true.

If you would search for the other posting from this web site, so I don't have to repost.


look up "How can we prove the Bible is factual" post
on this site.

i offer many proofs. from mathematics, science, et cetera.

Morteza, one way to approach the topic, is to imagine what the world would be like if Allah really did exist.

If reality is no different with an imagined God, than without one, then it is likely that there is no such reality where a God actually exists.

The idea of an "other" is natural part of having the mind/brain systems we do. Basically it comes from our long period of dependency on those older and more experienced than us.

The human infant requires a predisposition to believe the claims of those in power. This appears to give us a survival advantage in infancy. However, this may present problems for the species when, as adults, we allow that predisposition for belief to become the justification for unreasoned belief.

Belief is important for helpless babies, but part of growing up is understanding when and where belief harms the species.

Apply your mind in all things.

There is NO way to prove the existence of God until you actually die and live the experience.
I believe that the idea that there is a afterlife or that God exists can be more believable if you have a paranormal experience.


Don't think too hard about it.You cannot understand everything while down here.

Morteza,
why not state your ideas and I can explain how I see it as a believer in the existence of an Almighty.
We are muslims or momin?

I've lots of Ideas about God and his existance, but still I'm confused about some factors for proving his existance and got some questions which sounds logical, for this I've decided to know about your ideas, please if you believe in God or not, give me your reasons about it!
What questions in your mind?

Your not going to get proof... just look around you... as if by magic we all appearred

Personally I think of god as someone who's always there to listen to me, to keep my friends and family safe, happy and healthy, as someone who will always forgive me for what ever I do wrong, I pray every night and just tell him what's on my mind, its nice. I hope that you will find the same comfort.

I happened to read something in a page about how God must exist.

In a nutshell of nutshells, every single object exists because of the big bang(I think). Skipping so many ideas later, how was the universe created? How does something come from nothing? It can't. There must be an existence before that who just happened, to create the universe.

Sorry if it's totally unorganized, I don't fully understand the idea myself.

Maybe this link can help you:

An Actual Freedom From The Human Condition (http://www.actualfreedom.com.au)

Enjoy!

The average gender ratio in the world is 105 males for 100 females. It remained
Constant throughout the many decades of scientific research.

Who is maintaining this ration?

The ratio remains the same despite female infanticide in some countries. How do
You explain this without using a para-human force?

Fisher's principle, I think, can be used for a reasonable explanation..

Yes, Fisher's principle does explain it. For the OP, it's an evolutionary principle. Google it and read up.

I just realized I never answeed the OP... I can't believe in any god because the idea is just too irrational for me. And it would mean a belief in destiny. You have to make your own, not depend on some invisible entity to provide it. And I try to be a 'moral' person because it's the right thing, not because some supposed omnipotent being declared 'rules of behavior.'

Morteza... ask yourself simple questions because this argument for proof will be ever lasting... there is none.

1) how do you get something from nothing ?

2) how does a huge oak tree grow from a tiny seed ?

3) why does the grass continue to grow year upon year, even after the battering it gets from.. football, kids, dogs, sports in general, insectacides, lawn mower etc etc...

4) look at the flowers each year, how beautiful, how perfect in every tiny detail... watch the stages of a rosebud opening slowly... sheer perfection.

Look around you, not at the material things that man collects for vanity or greed,but at the simplicitiy of the real world... nature

WE have everything provided for us... rain and sun for the plants to grow and bring forth fruit or the beauty of flowers.

Animals for food or clothing or transport if we so wished.

Sun for light and warmth... the moon to guide us by night

Man in truth needs very little to survive and what we do need is free all around us.


To create something beautiful and perfect down to the finest detail has to come from perfection itself and that is... our creator... God

The heart is effectively a syncytium, a meshwork of cardiac muscle cells
interconnected by contiguous cytoplasmic bridges.

Do you think that such a sophisticated system
could have come into being due to evolution
of cells or lifeless chemicals?



The fossil record also shows a sudden,
inexplicable appearance of a wide variety of
both simple and complex life-forms. However,
if evolution were true, there would only be a
very gradual increase in both the numbers and
complexity of such organisms.

Regression of species: Since evolution is
supposed to be continual and random, we
should expect the same process that caused
the emergence of humans from apes to also
produce apes from humans. The law of natural
selection would not prevent this from
happening, because apes remain a stable life
form, able to survive current environmental
conditions.

Chromosomes. This is the most inexplicable
difference of all. Primates have 48
chromosomes. Humans are considered vastly
superior to them in a wide array of areas,
yet somehow we have only 46 chromosomes! This
begs the question of how we could lose two
full chromosomes--which represents a lot of
DNA--in the first place, and in the process
become so much better.

The leading mathematicians in the century met
with some evolutionary biologists and
confronted them with the fact that according
to mathematical statistics, the probabilities
of a cell or a protein molecule coming into
existence were nil. They even constructed a
model of a large computer and tried to figure
out the possibilities of a cell ever
happening. The result was zero possibility! -
Wistar Institute, 1966.

Under normal circumstances, creatures give
birth to the same kind of creatures. It is
established scientific fact that like begets
like. On rare instances, the DNA in an embryo
is damaged, resulting in a mutant child that
differs in some respect from its parent.
Although a few mutations have been
scientifically observed that are beneficial,
most mutations produce inferior offspring.
For the theory of evolution to be true, there
must be a fantastic number of creative
mutations that produce new kinds of offspring
which are better suited for survival, and
therefore are favored by natural selection.
Mutations are harmful and deadly, not useful
as "evolution" requires. Cancer is an example
of a mutation.

http://www.straight-talk.net/evolution/arguments.shtml

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/top.htm

One of the most basic, fundamental laws of
science, the Second Law of Thermodynamics,
states that things in nature always tend to
dissolve and breakdown with the passage of
time, not grow more complex which would be
the case if evolution were true.

http://www.frankcaw.com/science.html

The gymnarchus (Nile Knifefish) is a nocturnal fish and

has poor vision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnarchus_niloticus

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/abstract/35/2/451

http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/17/5/1761

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/16339036

It uses an organ, which is similar to a radar, to
locate the prey it is chasing. For the radar system of
fishes to function properly, the receptors in the skin
that perceive electrical signals should be extremely
sensitive. Indeed, the gymnarchus can 'notice' a change
in the current intensity as small as 0.000 000 000 000
003 ampere. Such sensitivity enables the fish to
distinguish an ordinary gudgeon from bait in whose body
a man has hidden a tiny steel hook angler. It can steer
through very muddy water even at night using its radar.

Do you think that such an engineering marvel could
have come into being through evolution alone?

You can. We did in Philosophy class:

Proof
The grass is green
if the grass is green then God exists

God exists. Q.E.D.

I don't get it. This proves nothing.

If you read Rev you will find that in the end the entire world will end up being destroyed. So yes in the end God does end the world.

This is ASSUMING that you believe the bible.

29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea[d] as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

Are you saying you believe that water separated itself like two walls were constructed to hold it back. A dry path was created for people to walk through . And all the fish, sea life, etc. would have to pick a side and try to stay in the water since dry land would kill them.
I'm not trying to be a smart alack, just real. I want someone to answer the hard questions and not gloss over reality with irrational scripture.

Your search for the proof of God can only come from yourself. By definition, there can be no objective evidence. But subjective evidence is all around for those who believe. They see the hand of God in every molecule of the universe. From your posts, you apparently believe in God. That is enough 'evidence' for some. I read in your posts some confusion, tho, on either what god to believe in, or how your faith can manifest itself. This is something only you can decide. I urge you to study the beliefs of others, including the ideas of those who do not believe, so that you can make an informed choice. I will not try to talk you out of any particular belief system, but I urge you to study carefully.

The Qur'an and the Bible (some of the Old and most of the New Testament) are similar in the ideas on how one should behave or treat others. The main difference as I see it is in the history and procedures for showing belief (and, of course, the divinity of Jesus). It is for you to decide which specifics are right for you.

Full disclosure: I do not believe in any god. If you would like me to explain how this came to be, just ask.

I totally love and agree with your answer. It was respectful and fair. You were not pushing your beliefs or agenda on anyone. I would love to know how you came to your decision to not believe in a god.

I do believe that the earth will end.
Whether it will cease to exist after man tries to destroy it by themselves or if it will reach the end of its appointed time of existence before man completely destroys it, this I do not know.
Or maybe man will cease to exist before the end of the world.

I believe that as the earth was created so will it end,that is by the will of the Almighty.

I really don't understand why it matters if the earth will end or not. What will be, will be.

There is NO way to prove the existence of God until you actually die and live the experience.
I believe that the idea that there is a afterlife or that God exists can be more believable if you have a paranormal experience.


Don't think too hard about it.You cannot understand everything while down here.

You are so right. There is no way to "prove" this. Or "know" this. You just choose to "believe" it, or not.
My problem is not with "god" for lack of a better word. I "believe" there is a god that exist in everyone that chooses to be open to the idea. My problem is not with the idea of a god but with the bible, and the conditional love and acceptance set up to be able to enter the gates of heaven. (ie Belief that Jesus is the son of god)

I feel strength and love from him the same way I feel the unconditional love I have for my children. It is something that can not be proven by an outside source but is something as real inside me as the nose on my face. My good conduct and compassion for other people has nothing to do with pleasing a god to earn brownie points toward my ticket to heaven. It simply is done because my heart tells me that is the way it should be.

Is there an afterlife? The only thing we know for sure is that no one really KNOWS. They just choose to believe or not believe. I choose NOT to believe in the literal interpretation for sure! It just goes against everything that is right.


Imagine human forms standing around heaven waiting to be reunited with loved ones.
Or hell being a fiery pit with a devil running around and good people burning for
Eternity. Christians believe hell is the result of not " believing" even if a person was never even taught about Jesus or if they simply believe in what they were taught by their family or culture. Or a person that has spent their life dedicated to helping others but is not of the christian faith. This, I TOTALLY don't believe in.

I call this CONDITIONAL love from a god that would hold this over your head. I can't believe in and trust such a god.

The average gender ratio in the world is 105 males for 100 females. It remained
constant throughout the many decades of scientific research.

Who is maintaining this ration?

The ratio remains the same despite female infanticide in some countries. How do
you explain this without using a para-human force?

What is a para human force?

It's some sort of paranormal force that seems to affect the average gender ratio of humans.

Do you think that such an engineering marvel could
Have come into being through evolution alone?[/QUOTE]

I think yes, it's possible. I am impressed with the brains of scientist that figure all this stuff out.

Now, tell me how a male form appeared in the garden of eden? Where is this garden anyway? They had children. Who did their children mate with? Where did the names Adam and Eve come from? What characteristics did they have? Black, white skin, straight or curly hair? How did these features of the original two people come about? I find it very hard to believe that billions of people are the descendants of only one man and one woman. Speaking of math, it just doesn't add up!

cozyk... you really missed the point totally


Science and biology has absolutely nothing to do with it... try Faith

Hi, I happen to come across this message board & became quite interested in this conversation. I went to a private (along with my younger & my older brother) many years ago. Im 30 now, my father past when I was 14& that's when we left the school to move back up north, we couldn't afford where we were living after his passing. Anyway I struggled for many years asking God "why would you take my dad, he was a good husband, great father just a wonderful man" His time here was a short one, he was 40yrs old. I grew up without a male figure and blamed it on God. I am 30yrs old, a mom and a wife now & have accepted that He didn't rip him from us, it was simply his time to go, why? Well I still don't know but I can tell you this, we (people) are all here, not by accident. There is a purpose for your existence, for everyone's existence. It is up to you and only you to figure that out, that is what life is all about. The discovery of who we are and why we are here. God is like wind, you can not see it but no matter, you still know it's there, you can feel it. And that my friend is God!! Godbless you on your journey of life and Good luck!

cozyk....you really missed the point totally


science and biology has absolutly nothing to do with it.........try Faith

You did not answer any of my questions. Why not?

I will tell you this, as humanbeings we all question. It is natural for us to be curious and have a "need to see it to belive it" attitude toward most major things in life(small stuff too I guess) & I have found myself question everything, all the time, in everything I did. In this lifetime we all can agree on one single factor and that is that we will never truly know an answer to everything we question. And yes it all comes down to one thing and that is the "F" word, Faith!! Im sure Im not the only one that has had a very close all in my life, in a car accident, maybe test results, maybe a major surgery(or be it a family member or friend we are close with) and the second we escape that close call, we get this very warm sensation in our whole body that consumes us with this feeling and what do we say before anything else "THANK GOD". I truly believe its because on some level we all know there's something more. The bible is confusing for a lot of people to understand, I still don't but even It says there are many religions and we weren't given the right to judge, that for only the Almighty to do, but at the end of the day when we're left as confused as we were when we started, just close your eyes and listen to your heart. You'll be surprised at what you can teach yourself by just feeling what's already there. That's how I know that God is always with me, he tells me in the sunshine, in the winds, the rains, the rainbows and in the eyes of my 2 beautiful sons. Im far from a religious person and don't want to come off as such. But I just believe what I believe and it's a peace I pray everyone gets to experience in their lives, if you just stop asking why and just open your heart and just listen. Everything else will happen to follow, not by accident (its all a purpose!)

I will tell you this, as humanbeings we all question. It is natural for us to be curious and have a "need to see it to belive it" attitude toward most major things in life(small stuff too I guess) & I have found myself question everything, all the time, in everything I did. In this lifetime we all can agree on one single factor and that is that we will never truly know an answer to everything we question. And yes it all comes down to one thing and that is the "F" word, Faith!!! Im sure Im not the only one that has had a very close all in my life, in a car accident, maybe test results, maybe a major surgery(or be it a family member or friend we are close with) and the second we escape that close call, we get this very warm sensation in our whole body that consumes us with this feeling and what do we say before anything else "THANK GOD". I truly believe its because on some level we all know theres something more. The bible is confusing for alot of people to understand, i still dont but even It says there are many religions and we werent given the right to judge, that for only the Almighty to do, but at the end of the day when we're left as confused as we were when we started, just close your eyes and listen to your heart. You'll be surprised at what you can teach yourself by just feeling whats already there. Thats how I know that God is always with me, he tells me in the sunshine, in the winds, the rains, the rainbows and in the eyes of my 2 beautiful sons. Im far from a religious person and dont wanna come off as such. But I just believe what I believe and its a peace I pray everyone gets to experience in their lives, if you just stop asking why and just open your heart and just listen. Everything else will happen to follow, not by accident (its all a purpose!)

I agree. "Be STILL and know that I AM God. That tells me we just need to be still and quite and listen to our heart and that is where we find God. Pushing religious doctrine and trying to get others to believe that our god is THE god is counter productive. It causes strife and discord.:o

I totally love and agree with your answer. It was respectful and fair. You were not pushing your beliefs or agenda on anyone. I would love to know how you came to your decision to not believe in a god.

Thanks for recognizing that. I've been accused of the opposite. But like you, I have no real problem with faith, my concerns are organized religion and its institutions, esp those which proclaim a need to adhere to a literal interpretation of the Bible - any bible.

While I believed in God early on, mostly it was a social conscript - no one I knew didn't. But Mom let me opt out of Sunday school when I said I didn't like it. I don't remember if I told her (we prob didn't have that conversation then), but part of the reason was the recognition of inconsistencies and contradictions. (Who did Cain marry and who was in Nod? Who did Noah's family members marry to repopulate the world? Of whom is God jealous?) As I got older, the questions continued and my break with organized religion came when the minister railed against Communism in his Sunday sermon instead of sticking to religious topics (I was in my early teens). With all the many problems I saw in organized religion I became an 'agnostic.'

The more I studied how the world and nature worked, the more irrational I deemed the concept of a god until I realized I never really did believe in such an omnipotent, onmiscient being.

I will never scoff at faith, but I will challenge anyone who tries to claim that everyone has to believe or that everyone must follow their religious rules of conduct.

BTW- - welcome to the conversation.

-

You did not answer any of my questions. Why not?

What questions!! All you've done is make statements... in the main disagreeing with why people believe.

My reason for my belief has been posted in previous posts, I see no reason to re -iterate
That post, my opinion remains unchanged.

The argument still stands... you cannot dis-prove the existence of God and I cannot prove Gods existence... and quite frankly I don't feel the need to do so.

What questions!!!! all you've done is make statements...in the main disagreeing with why people believe.

My reason for my belief has been posted in previous posts, i see no reason to re -iterate
that post, my opinion remains unchanged.

The argument still stands.....you cannot dis-prove the existence of God and i cannot prove Gods existence...... and quite frankly i don't feel the need to do so.

My bad. I was responding to so many post that I actually combined yours and another by accident. So sorry for the confusion.
My believing that science/biology could be responsible for the nature you described is not an anti-god statement. I actually believe in God. He resides in my heart and soul. I have no desire to prove or dis-prove God to anyone and have not ask you or anyone else to prove it to me.

Your post was asking how could someone NOT believe when you look at all these things in nature. My point is that if you are using that as an example of proof, it was not a slam dunk example.

Dear Morteza, it doesn't take long to see the existence of God, when you wake up in the morning and hear the birds wake with the dawn, what a wonder to behold.
The bible says that we are fearfully and wonderfully made,
Psalm 139:13-15

13 For you created my inmost being;
You knit me together in my mother's womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you
When I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,


God has a plan for your life, but until your spirit becomes alive to God, you cannot see or even enter the Kingdom of God.
Jesus said, You must be Born again.
This is a real experience, if you are obedient to the Word of God and turn from your sin, (we are all sinners in need of a Saviour) accept Jesus as your sacrifice from sin, (we are saved by the Grace of God, not by our own works).
Ask God to fill you with His Holy Spirit, and He will give you, not only power over sin, but a new tongue to praise Him with.
Then get baptised by full immersion, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, to wash away your sins.
If you can get a Bible, read Mark 16. John 3. Ephesians 1-2, Romans, all of it, and James.
Then go back and read the whole New Testament.
Jesus died for you too, but then He rose from the dead so that you could receive eternal life.
Not only for you, but to any-one that would call on His name.
Just ask Jesus to reveal Himself to you, and send some-one to tell you more.
I know that you may have a mistrust of Christians for what has been done in the name of Christianity, but don't let evil men deny you from the inheritance God has got planned for you.
May the peace and love of the Lord Jesus Christ rest upon your soul.
Peter. :)

I can't prove anything and niether can anybody about this but just look at the world! Someone had to do it!

I can't prove anything and niether can anybody about this but just look at the world! someone had to do it!

Someone had to do it?! Why? No reason at all why anyone or anything had to be consciously working to create anything you see.

I look at the world and sky and wonder at nature. You look and see something's handiwork. I like my view better. More wonder in it.

I believe in faith. It brings mankind together. Religion, on the other hand, appears to separate man through difference in beliefs. If man is made in Gods image I would fear to meet a God with the capacities of hate and ego and greed. Further I don't accept the word of God through any man. Man is subject to corruption and the power of influencing others always leads to corruption. If God wanted to speak to me it seems unlikely he would use a middlman that is subject to the temptations power implies. As yet I've had no epiphanies or lightning bolts appear in my vicinity. I think the more likely understanding is that God is a universal entity made up of everything in the universe and existing eternally. I'm sure to such a being, the short time man has existed and the fact that he operates just like a virus in that he wastes resources until they are gone and then moves to a new area of resource, would appear to such a Being as a zit on the face of a tiny backwoods planet and would heal itself by its own destruction quicker than it would take for God to do anything about it. Therefore the synopsis is: the universe is healthy except for one small outbreak that will cure itself through natural extinction. The dinosaurs existed longer than we have.

Your search for the proof of God can only come from yourself. By definition, there can be no objective evidence. But subjective evidence is all around for those who believe. They see the hand of God in every molecule of the universe. From your posts, you apparently believe in God. That is enough 'evidence' for some. I read in your posts some confusion, tho, on either what god to believe in, or how your faith can manifest itself. This is something only you can decide. I urge you to study the beliefs of others, including the ideas of those who do not believe, so that you can make an informed choice. I will not try to talk you out of any particular belief system, but I urge you to study carefully.

The Qur'an and the Bible (some of the Old and most of the New Testament) are similar in the ideas on how one should behave or treat others. The main difference as I see it is in the history and procedures for showing belief (and, of course, the divinity of Jesus). It is for you to decide which specifics are right for you.

Full disclosure: I do not believe in any god. If you would like me to explain how this came to be, just ask.



This was an excellent response to the original question. I believe that I have a "god" out there or mostly "in there" in my heart, gut, soul, and or conscience. I was raised as a die hard christian and I have questioned aspects of that all my life. I certainly do NOT believe that Christianity is THE only acceptable religion as Christians do. Therefore, I've turned in my christian card. :) My children do not even believe in god. I would be so interested to hear how you came to not believing in any god.

The supreme revelation of God is Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus
Was God in the flesh that came to earth. He came in fulfillment of two thousand
Years of Jewish history, and His coming was precisely as fortold by the prophets. He came among us and showed us what God is like, so we could know Him better.
As He told His disciple Philip, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father".John 14:9

Maggie 3

My friend you can never query some questions that are unanswerable from the times immemorial!
Many lost there simple living and wandered for long in search of these unanswerable question believe me your very existence is much to be cherished rather than looking for gods and spirits , ask yourself who you are and seek this question continuously what ever you are doing every time...

Remember you won't be long enough and won't have another opportunity to do better things forget what gospels , books and guru's say ,
Take hints from them but follow your own liked path!

I certainly do NOT believe that Christianity is THE only acceptable religion as Christians do. Therefore, I've turned in my christian card. :)

Not all Christians believe Christianity is the only acceptable religion. It sounds as if your version wasn't worth having :)

cozyk....you really missed the point totally


science and biology has absolutly nothing to do with it.........try Faith

Try addressing my questions

Note: "Proving" God exists is really not our purpose. We are only interested in providing clear statements based on facts and logic and then allow the individual decide for themselves who they would like to believe. There have always been people who believed in the existence of God and there have always been those who have denied in His existence. We must realize there are those who will never believe no matter how much proof or evidence we produce. The reason is some people don't want to believe in a Creator or Sustainer. They would not like to consider one day they will have to answer for their actions and for their refusal to acknowledge their Benefactor to whom they owe their very existence. We come to know it is not so much a matter of us trying to convey our beliefs as it is for them to set aside preconceived prejudices against proper belief. Meaning: this is really a matter of guidance from Above. If they refuse even with evident proofs in front of them, this is not between us and them; it is between them and their Creator. Again, it is not our job to "prove" anything to anyone. We only need to present the facts in truth and allow the listener to make up their own mind.

We just begin with simple logic. When something is right in front of our eyes it is difficult to deny it, right? Asking rhetorical questions can be very helpful in presenting our case. Begin by asking the question; "Can you prove you exist?" Yes, of course you can. You merely use your senses to determine what you can see, hear, feel, smell, taste and you have emotions as well. All of this is a part of your existence. But this is not how we perceive God in Islam. We can look to the things He has created and the way He cares for things and sustains us, to know there is no doubt of His existence.

One approach is to suggest simple yet convincing experiments anyone could comprehend. For instance, say to someone, "Consider this the next time you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them? Of course not."

Another example is have them consider what might happen if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around? Naturally not.

Or ask someone to consider what it would be like if someone told us about a fast food restaurant operating itself without any people there? The food just cooks itself, files from the kitchen to the table and then when we are done, the dishes jump back the kitchen to wash themselves. This is too crazy for anyone to even think about.

After reflecting on all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the cells in a microscope and then think all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident"?

MORE?
visit
God Allah - Does It Mean God? (http://www.godallah.com)
Allah's Quran - Quran - A Guidance Without Doubt (http://www.allahsquran.com)

Individuals, forces and events are either positive or negative, creative or destructive, good or evil. Creation originates in the Creator. Destruction results from conflict between finite objects and persons...

Dear friend,

I believed you are somewhat impatient in your search for certain big questions?

I honestly tell you even I cannot prove to you the existence of an almighty...

Also honestly even I don't have an idea as to whether there is such thing as a GOD!

But believe me when I speak to you I speak from my experiences :


"with which ever perspective you look out for this question you wont find a logical answer to this question"

Faith does moves big mountains, also rational thinker are also true !

The fact is its you who has to make or destroy your life !

So act such that you build your life beautifully not craving for knowing some questions that are not possible to be solved !

And if there is a god he or she will let you know these questions when the destiny has it to give to you in your life :)

I think the best starting point in your quest is to ask yourself what you regard as more important than anything else...

How about love? :)

I believe you should know a few things about God, so you can recognize Him, who and
What He is. First He is the Bible the Word of God. Some may not have a good understanding of God because it takes time to read and study it. God is spirit, love and all
Goodness. Here are four qualities (attributes) of God. No other person or creature
Can claim these attributes.

GOD IS ETERNAL
"Then Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there called on the name of the Lord, the Everlasting God." Gen 21:33

GOD IS OMNIPOTENT---ALMIGHTY, ALL---POWERFUL
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to Him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless." Gen 17:1
"But Jesus looked at them {His disiples} and said to them, "With men this is impossible,
But with God all things are possible". Math. 19:26

God IS OMNISCIENT--ALL-KNOWING
"God is greater than our heart, and knows all things." 1 John 3:20
"And there is no creaturs hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account." Heb 4:13

GOD IS OMNIPRESENT--PEASENT EVERWHERE,UNLIMITED BY SPACE
"Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I flee
From Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in
Hell, behold, you are there." Ps139:7-8
" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...
And the Word became flish and dwet among us, and we beheld His glory, and glory as
Of the only begoten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1, 14

These attributes give you a good look at what you are looking for! It is hard to find
Something you have no idea what it is like.

There are two powers on earth good and evil. God is love and all good. Satan is all evil
And bad.

When you find the one with these attributes you find God.

Shalom,

MAGGIE 3











Maggie 3

Well my thoughts on this topic may be a little off key from the rest but here is my respond:


The world feels so concrete and electronicaly lit up, doesn't it? Sometimes we all feel that we deserve or should have been given proof that there is a God. In this day and age, our generations greatest test is wheather or not we will believe in there being a deeper truth beyond the walls of our mediocre world. The Bible says that this world was meant for living in , but not living for. This is why we stumble in our faith in the superior spirit that does not show himself in times of desperation and disbelief. In all truth, the tangible world we live in is more ugly and without a God , completely purposless. All hope would be a lie with a God. Scary, I know. So because of this fear, we become so unmovable. We don't want to take a step forward in our spiritual selves because we fear it could lead to a path of emptiness. We become afraid of living as our fellow society members because we fear hell and the pit of unmistakable regret.
Remember this, God is love. Everything God is in the Bible , as he himself declares he is, loving and only has the best of intensions for mankind. An excellent example of God's good intensions would be hold onto virginity until marriage. Let's image a world where we all had sex with one person our entire lives. (Far fetched to us now, yes but it had a good purpose.) That world would be full of happier united families, few divorces, few diseases, etc. God's "rules" were only meant for embracement.

Anyhow, It's just a matter of believing in his love; Believing in his presence. It isn't logical. But logic stands very small next to an everylasting truth.


God bless.

I'm starting to believe God lies in consciousness. That men are minimally conscious. According to quantum mechanics (I think?) all things ranging from thought to matter are made of energy vibrating at a specific frequency that is the signature for the nature and content of the object/subject. That all creation begins with thought and grows with conscious recognition. Consciousness is the living and life giving? It's highly likely that people such as Jesus and Buddha became what they were through overcoming "self", conceptions of reality learned in adolescence through peers and the environment.. or maybe even developed through conformation with the energy frequency of those around them.

God doesn't have to be some dude "up there" in some bad place called heaven to be known as God. God can be a conscious thing, a consciousness that creates life that exists through acting and changing in order for consciousness to experience itself. Experience occurs through action. Thought is action. Without thought, action, or change, how would pure consciousness experience itself... maybe physical life is the matrix of god. The higher the consciousness the higher the knowing... depth perception.. etc.

Read the Kybalion.

I liked your answer... really much! Thanks dude...

You need look no further than DNA which is ceded information, information always comes from intelligence, and is never random as the evolutionist claim. Example: you don't see a heart and arrow in the sand that reads " I love Lucy" and assume it got there by accident, it's information. All living things where created by an itellegent being, it is your job to figure out who he is. I suggest strongly that you begin with prayer, and read the Christian bible through at least one.

Many arguments which attempt to prove or disprove the existence of God have been proposed by philosophers, theologians, and other thinkers for many centuries. In philosophical terminology, such arguments concern schools of thought on the epistemology of the ontology of God.

There are many philosophical issues concerning the existence of God. Some definitions of God are sometimes nonspecific, while other definitions can be self-contradictory. Arguments for the existence of God typically include metaphysical, empirical, inductive, and subjective types, while others revolve around holes in evolutionary theory and order and complexity in the world. Arguments against the existence of God typically include empirical, deductive, and inductive types. Conclusions reached include: "God does not exist" (strong atheism); "God almost certainly does not exist"[16] (de facto atheism); "no one knows whether God exists" (agnosticism); "God exists, but this cannot be proven or disproven" (theism); and "God exists and this can be proven" (theism). There are numerous variations on these positions.

A recent argument for the existence of God is intelligent design,[17] which asserts that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[18] It is a modern form of the traditional argument from design, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer. Its primary proponents, all of whom are associated with the Discovery Institute,[19] believe the designer to be the Abrahamic God.[20]

Arguments for the existence of God come in many different forms; some draw on history, some on science, some on personal experience, and some on philosophy.

God exists and that's for sure