I am aware that Banks have created legal policies which allow them to suck every penny they can from their customers. Again, I know in most cases its legal. My question is can a bank take until noon the next business day (after an electronic withdrawl hits) to decide whether to pay it. All the while showing it as having overdrawn my account. And if their stated policy is to wait until the last minute the following day before deciding not to pay it, are they entitled to bounce the checks and charge the fees that would have been covered had they immediately decided not to pay it and put the amount back into the account? And if all of the above, which while potentially being legal, is certainly disgusting; can they then, after waiting until noon on the next business day to decide not to pay the item, hold your money yet another 24 hours allowing checks to continue to bounce (and fees to be charged) Thereby having held $490 as unavailable Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, and posting it (the original withdrawl)as having not been paid Wednesday but with Mondays date? Is it too much to hope that the corporations that have taken over running the government and writing the rules for Congress can be brought to account (pardon the pun) for their deceptive practices. Any help would be appreciated.

Yes, they may take time to decide to pay or not pay, and they also pay out the largest item first before the others, and always take out before adding the depoisits.

But to be honest, if a person has a balanced check book, and never spends more or writes more money out of their acccounts this will never happen. If there was not enough money in an account, for just the one withdraw, why would someone think there is money for the withdraw plus all of the other checks.

Plus these are merely fees they charge

Banks aren't getting away with theft. You are not keeping accurate records of what monies you have available in your bank account. Something similar happened to me. I went to the bank and the branch manager and she went over a print out of my account showing the date and time each check was presented at the bank for payment. My bank paid each check in the order it was received. It also credited my deposit in order as well. I had miscalculated and I am the one who made the error. I had forgotten to deduct a check I had written and that made my account overdrawn.

You could possibly ask for such a print out showing in what order everything was received and paid out in your account and see if you had made some sort of a mistake in your calculations.

Yes, they may take time to decide to pay or not pay, and they also pay out the largest item first before the others, and alwyas take out before adding the depoisits.

But to be honest, if a person has a balanced check book, and never spends more or writes more money out of their acccounts this will never happen. If there was not enough money in an account, for just the one withdraw, why would someone think there is money for the withdraw plus all of the other checks.

Plus these are merely fees they charge

So let me see if I understand: As long as I never have an error or make a mistake, I will avoid the disingenuous "favor" the bank is doing me by paying out the largest item first thereby causing multiple overdraft fees on the smaller items which all equaled less than the one large item. Example. 1 automated withdrawl of $500 paid on the same day but ahead of 7 smaller items totaling less than $500 causing the next 7 to bounce. Ah, but that's right, I should be punished financially, to the tune of $210 for my grievous error and besides I am sure it must have taken the bank completely by surprise costing them at least that much to figure out all the paperwork.

Banks aren't getting away with theft. You are not keeping accurate records of what monies you have available in your bank account. Something similar happened to me. I went to the bank and the branch manager and she went over a print out of my account showing the date and time each check was presented at the bank for payment. My bank paid each check in the order it was received. It also credited my deposit in order as well. I had miscalculated and I am the one who made the error. I had forgotten to deduct a check I had written and that made my account overdrawn.

You could possibly ask for such a print out showing in what order everything was received and paid out in your account and see if you had made some sort of a mistake in your calculations.

Thank you for your response. I don't believe I communicated my issue as simply as was needed. I am aware that I made the original error. I am aware that there are and should be penalties. My question was about the specific timing and its obvious effects on incoming items. To agree that my error makes it appropriate for the bank to confiscate my funds for up to 72 hours, 24 hours after they decided they were not going to pay out the item, to me suggests a confidence in a for profit institution that I can not share. But thank you anyway for your response.

The banks, in many cases are struggling to make ends meet. They find ways to do this at our expense, legally. Just don't ever, ever give them the chance again. If having a $1000 pad in your account is what it takes, do it.

Hello ron:

Banks don't make money on checking accounts - even the ones that AREN'T free, and most of 'em are free these days. They earn their money on fees. They are closely regulated, and they don't do anything that isn't governed by law or isn't covered in their agreement with you.

So, they didn't "decide" to do anything in your case. They just did what banks do and made a few bucks. You certainly gave them the opportunity, and I promise you, you signed an agreement giving them permission to do exactly what they did.

However, if you're a good customer, you can certainly ask for the fees back. If the bank thinks you're a good customer, they'll do it.

excon

Hello ron:

Banks don't make money on checking accounts - even the ones that AREN'T free, and most of 'em are free these days. They earn their money on fees. They are closely regulated, and they don't do anything that isn't governed by law or isn't covered in their agreement with you.

So, they didn't "decide" to do anything in your case. They just did what banks do and made a few bucks. You certainly gave them the opportunity, and I promise you, you signed an agreement giving them permission to do exactly what they did.

However, if you're a good customer, you can certainly ask for the fees back. If the bank thinks your a good customer, they'll do it.

excon

Thank you for your input. As it happens Commerce Bank allows its branch managers to determine whether to pay or not to pay items greater than your available balance. As to the logic that because a business is closely regulated and "doesn't do anything that isn't governed by law" I am sure that the folks who invested in Enron, Worldcom, Tyco and Global Crossing would disagree.

The problem here is you are looking at this from the wrong angle. By holding up the payment, they were probably trying to give you time to make good on it. They may have figured that a deposit was coming on or that you were monitoring your account and would deposit the money needed.

But I also agree with the others. In these days of electronic banking, its easy to keep tabs on your account and not let this happen. Of apply for overdraft privileges. I have an overdraft line of credit. So If I do make a mistake, the only cost is a small amount of interest.

The banks, in many cases are struggling to make ends meet. They find ways to do this at our expense, legally. Just don't ever, ever give them the chance again. If having a $1000 pad in your account is what it takes, do it.

I must say I am quite surprised by the responses I am getting in this forum. Given all that has happened in the last, oh... say... 7 and two thirds years, all the corporate scandals, political scandals, and out and out fraud, that people have such faith in the banking industry. As it happens "Commercial banks and savings institutions insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) reported net income of $19.3 billion in the first quarter of 2008, a decline of $16.3 billion (45.7 percent) from the $35.6 billion that the industry earned in the first quarter of 2007. In releasing the latest results, the FDIC cited higher provisions for loan losses as the primary reason for the drop in industry profits..." (http://interestrateroundup.blogspot.com/2008/05/fdic-banking-industry-mess-in-q1-2008.html) 35.6 billion in profits had they not participate in the "legal" sub-prime mortgage business. Banks are not "struggling to make ends meet" they are attempting to make a profit any way they can at the consumers expense with no regard for the impact on the individual, the nation, or the world.

I am sure that the folks who invested in Enron, Worldcom, Tyco and Global Crossing would disagree.Hello again, rox:

They were crooks. If you think your bank is crooked, call the cops. But, you don't think that, do you? You just want to blame them for your mistake.

excon

The devils in the details... its all right there in your fee schedule and rules of application. Obviously you'd prefer the least damaging action, but I don't expect a bank manager to get on the phone and call me up, inform me of my deficit, discuss what bills should be paid and which shouldn't. Itd be nice, but it just isn't reality.

Short answer, as you know, is you made the mistake and you agreed to the potential for these exact fees by doing business with them. If you think they are bleeding you unfairly, move your business. A painful lesson, for sure.

As a small business owner I've had people pass me bad checks for items they have in their possession. I can walk away from it, try to get that money back, or try to get that money back and returned check fees by jumping though hoops. If I pursue the harshest route, its all within the law. My right.

Years ago in college I had a few checks bounce and it was an ugly cascade effect, not unlike yours. Three checks would have cleared, leaving one big one denied... instead the big one was paid and I was hit with four fees... one for the paid check and three for the denied. Hard lesson learned. My fault, their prerogative and right.

The problem here is you are looking at this from the wrong angle. By holding up the payment, they were probably trying to give you time to make good on it. They may have figured that a deposit was coming on or that you were monitoring your account and would deposit the money needed.

But I also agree with the others. In these days of electronic banking, its easy to keep tabs on your account and not let this happen. Of apply for overdraft priveleges. I have an overdraft line of credit. So If I do make a mistake, the only cost is a small amount of interest.

Thank you Scott, I refer you to my response to simoneaugie I agree that their stated intent is to give me time to "make good on it" The problem is: Why after I "made good on it" the same day, they determined not to pay it, did my account balance reflect it having been paid for the next 24 hours?

They earn their money on fees. Just as a slight correction: they make most of their money on the interest they make on your money. You give them your money, they loan it out to others. You get 1.5% interest, they loan it out at 7% interest.

Hello again, rox:

They were crooks. If you think your bank is crooked, call the cops. But, you don't think that, do ya? You just want to blame them for your mistake.

excon

Actually, when one has an issue with the actions of a commercial institution, one does not just "call the cops". I do believe they are crooked, I have filed a complaint with the FDIC and I had hoped to get some intelligent feedback from this website.
As for wanting to "blame someone for my mistake" If that is the best "advice" you have to offer, I would ask that you keep your input to yourself. It is not thoughtful nor helpful.

the devils in the details... its all right there in your fee schedule and rules of application. obviously youd prefer the least damaging action, but i dont expect a bank manager to get on the phone and call me up, inform me of my deficit, discuss what bills should be paid and which shouldnt. itd be nice, but it just isnt reality.

short answer, as you know, is you made the mistake and you agreed to the potential for these exact fees by doing business with them. if you think they are bleeding you unfairly, move your business. a painful lesson, for sure.

as a small business owner ive had people pass me bad checks for items they have in their posession. i can walk away from it, try to get that money back, or try to get that money back and returned check fees by jumping though hoops. if i pursue the harshest route, its all within the law. my right.

years ago in college i had a few checks bounce and it was an ugly cascade effect, not unlike yours. three checks would have cleared, leaving one big one denied... instead the big one was paid and i was hit with four fees... one for the paid check and three for the denied. hard lesson learned. my fault, their prerogative and right.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I agree with 99% of what you are saying. I know I made the mistake. I know and expect to pay a penalty. I know and understand it is the banks right to clear checks in whichever order they see fit. The 1% difference is in the banks holding my funds as unavailable for another 24 hours after deciding on day 2 not to pay the item, in spite of a deposit covering everything and then some on the same day as their decision not to pay.

I would ask that you keep your input to yourself. It is not thoughtful nor helpful.Hello again, rox:

Sorry, dude. You're not the only one here who can rant... I'll be as unthoughtful and as unhelpful as I choose to be.

excon

I must say I am quite surprised by the responses I am getting in this forum. Given all that has happened in the last, oh...say...7 and two thirds years, all the corporate scandals, political scandals, and out and out fraud, that people have such faith in the banking industry. As it happens "Commercial banks and savings institutions insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) reported net income of $19.3 billion in the first quarter of 2008, a decline of $16.3 billion (45.7 percent) from the $35.6 billion that the industry earned in the first quarter of 2007. In releasing the latest results, the FDIC cited higher provisions for loan losses as the primary reason for the drop in industry profits..." (http://interestrateroundup.blogspot.com/2008/05/fdic-banking-industry-mess-in-q1-2008.html) 35.6 billion in profits had they not participate in the "legal" sub-prime mortgage business. Banks are not "struggling to make ends meet" they are attempting to make a profit any way they can at the consumers expense with no regard for the impact on the individual, the nation, or the world.


If the attitude and sarcasm you have displayed on this thread are the same attitude (and sarcasm) you displayed with the Bank I understand their reluctance to work with you, explain this, work it out.

You aren't here for advice; you're here to argue. Wrong forum. Try political or banking or some other forum.

Legally you're out of gas - and this is a legal board.

The problem is: Why after I "made good on it" the same day, they determined not to pay it, did my account balance reflect it having been paid for the next 24 hours?

What was the form of this deposit? Did it need time to clear?

If the attitude and sarcasm you have displayed on this thread are the same attitude (and sarcasm) you displayed with the Bank I understand their reluctance to work with you, explain this, work it out.

You aren't here for advice; you're here to argue. Wrong forum. Try political or banking or some other forum.

Legally you're out of gas - and this is a legal board.

Actually, I was here for advice. My sarcasm would not be possible had the responses to my question been intelligent well reasoned. I believe several of the responders did not read my question in its entirety or were unable to comprehend my meaning. Instead it was asserted that because I made a mistake, which I admitted to repeatedly, that the "saintly" financial institutions should be absolved of ANY potential wrong doing even to the extent that they may have made an error. It is not that I am not, or should I say, was not here for advice, it is apparently "in poor taste" to disagree with a response from the so called "Real Expert" that the site purports to have at the ready. Were I to hold myself out as the "Real Expert" and provide "advice" that is neither helpful or relevant, I would expect to be challenged on it. There are real people who find this site and believe that they may be helped by it. To come on and be criticised for the mistake which led to the question that I wanted advice on, which is summarily dismissed in favor of inaccurate interpretations that allow for these criticisms is in my opinion worthy of a little sarcasm.

As for your assertion that this is the wrong forum, I couldn't agree with you more.

What was the form of this deposit? Did it need time to clear?

It was cash. The receipt shows the deposit at 2:59pm and an available balance of the deposit minus the item they decided not to pay 2 hours and 59 minutes earlier.

Actually, I was here for advice. My sarcasm would not be possible had the responses to my question been intelligent well reasoned. I believe several of the responders did not read my question in its entirety or were unable to comprehend my meaning. Instead it was asserted that because I made a mistake, which I admitted to repeatedly, that the "saintly" financial institutions should be absolved of ANY potential wrong doing even to the extent that they may have made an error. It is not that I am not, or should I say, was not here for advice, it is apparently "in poor taste" to disagree with a response from the so called "Real Expert" that the site purports to have at the ready. Were I to hold myself out as the "Real Expert" and provide "advice" that is neither helpful or relevant, I would expect to be challenged on it. There are real people who find this site and believe that they may be helped by it. To come on and be criticised for the mistake which led to the question that I wanted advice on, which is summarily dismissed in favor of inaccurate interpretations that allow for these criticisms is in my opinion worthy of a little sarcasm.

As for your assertion that this is the wrong forum, I couldn't agree with you more.


OK, without the sarcasm we're on the same page. Not defending anyone including myself but it's very difficult to give straight up legal advice without the "I told you so" tag line. I've done it myself. Keep in mind that hundreds of questions are posted every day and a whole lot of them - not saying you are in this category - are the poster's own fault. The "I ran up a debt of $5,000 and I can't afford it and the mean credit card company is trying to collect, what should I do" sort of stuff. And people, experts or not, are simply trying to help - we all step on each other's toes and the toes of posters all the time.

Again - well, maybe that is a defense (however weak) of sorts.

I don't know if this has anything to with anything but my bank gives me a receipt (and my on line balance in my checking account shows) funds on deposit, funds available. The "on deposit" amount includes checks which haven't cleared, unverified deposits. Obviously the "available" amount is "good" money.

Also a side note but the person I often partner with made an ATM deposit of a check and cash combination - deposit never showed up, bank never could find it, his print out wasn't worth the paper it was printed on and - again, too late here - since walking through that with him I have never made an ATM deposit.

Other than that short of negotiating with the bank - and it sounds like you've tried - I have no ideas for you other than the Banking Commission for your State.

Am I missing something in the chain of what happened? No problem being corrected if I have.

If you are in the mood for a somewhat humorous bank story which may explain why you are so frustrated - my husband passed away recently; I notified the bank (with which we also have a credit card) and furnished them with a copy of his Death Certificate in order to take his name off the accounts and charge accounts. In response I got a form letter addressed to him advising that they had received and reviewed his documents and increasing his line of credit by $8,000.

OK, without the sarcasm we're on the same page. Not defending anyone including myself but it's very difficult to give straight up legal advice without the "I told you so" tag line. I've done it myself. Keep in mind that hundreds of questions are posted every day and a whole lot of them - not saying you are in this category - are the poster's own fault. The "I ran up a debt of $5,000 and I can't afford it and the mean credit card company is trying to collect, what should I do" sort of stuff. And people, experts or not, are simply trying to help - we all step on each other's toes and the toes of posters all the time.

Again - well, maybe that is a defense (however weak) of sorts.

I don't know if this has anything to with anything but my bank gives me a receipt (and my on line balance in my checking account shows) funds on deposit, funds available. The "on deposit" amount includes checks which haven't cleared, unverified deposits. Obviously the "available" amount is "good" money.

Also a side note but the person I often partner with made an ATM deposit of a check and cash combination - deposit never showed up, bank never could find it, his print out wasn't worth the paper it was printed on and - again, too late here - since walking through that with him I have never made an ATM deposit.

Other than that short of negotiating with the bank - and it sounds like you've tried - I have no ideas for you other than the Banking Commission for your State.

Am I missing something in the chain of what happened? No problem being corrected if I have.

If you are in the mood for a somewhat humorous bank story which may explain why you are so frustrated - my husband passed away recently; I notified the bank (with which we also have a credit card) and furnished them with a copy of his Death Certificate in order to take his name off the accounts and charge accounts. In response I got a form letter addressed to him advising that they had received and reviewed his documents and increasing his line of credit by $8,000.

Thank you. Both for the substance and the humor. I think it is highly unlikely that what the bank did was illegal. It is only because the last part of the equation, that being: keeping the funds unavailable for an additional 24 hours, is just so incomprehensible to me that I had to look into it. I did file a complaint with the FDIC and I was attempting to get others opinions as to whether I should delve further into the matter. It seemed that I was being responded to as though it was an issue of cashing the larger check first or having the right to decide whether to pay the item out or just that I shouldn't have erred in the first place. Only one or to people asked about the real issue. I will however admit to being somewhat overly sarcastic at times when I feel I am under attack. Thank you for your reply.