Do you believe as a Christian today the Bible is the final authority? That it is absolute truth and written by men, inspired by GOD? ( 1 Timothy 3:16) Why and why not? I am not talking about understanding everything in it... there are many things that I still do not understand. BUT is it the Truth? Even if you don't like everything it says?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It is The Truth and The Light, and The Way.. The Word is Jesus

Do you believe as a Christian ....
Congrats with these starting words ! That is precisely what always should be added when asking for religious opinions!!

:)

Yes, it is the absolute Truth!

Here's the thing... if one single solitary thing in the Bible were not God's Truth then the entire Bible would be null and void. The reason... how would you be able to discern what was Truth and what wasn't?

You either take the Bible as it is, whether you like it or not, or you don't. You don't get to pick... it's futile to do so.

Moon,

Once again we agree! BUT many people pull it out of context, mix law with grace, and then get confused. My motto... LAW and GRACE... don't try to mix them... it doesn't work. It wasn't mean to.

This is an interesting question.

I believe that in the end we will see that the Bible is absolutely true down to the lase "jot and tittle". However we do not always understand the meaning, context or idiom for a particular text. Many of our widely held beliefs are not taken from the bible but from someone else's interpretation of what the words mean.

Example: Most Christians believe that Jesus was born in a stable, because Mary laid Jesus in a manger. A manger was an integral part of a living room because animals were brought into a lower part of a home for warmth usually at the end of the main living room.
So Jesus was probably born in living room instead of the cenacle (spare room) where travelers lodged and where children were usually born, out of sight of the rest of the family. The gospel writer was just noting the unusual circumstance when he wrote "there was no room". We now have whole sermons and traditions built up around this misunderstanding.

One thing that I do not understand is that Jesus quoted the scriptures, directly, at least 4 times. Only once is the quote exact. Twice the scripture he says that he is quoting is not there or appears to mean something else. "Scripture says...Ye are gods" and "out of his belly will run streams of living water".

This is an interesting question.

One thing that I do not understand is that Jesus quoted the scriptures, directly, at least 4 times. Only once is the quote exact. Twice the scripture he says that he is quoting is not there or appears to mean something else. "Scripture says...Ye are gods" and "out of his belly will run streams of living water".


John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

This scripture may be the one you are talking about, and if I can help you understand what is meant, I am happy to do so. Let me try to explain. He is meaning MESSIAH The river is an emphatic word implying Abundance Belly meaning the entire self or being.. . So you have ( He is, and will be, the source of all Spiritual Blessing "as the scripture hath said" )

As the scriptures include the follow list all refer this promise.
Isaiah 12:3 Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.

Isaiah 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

Ezekiel 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house [stood toward] the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south [side] of the altar.

Joel 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of tim

Zechariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.


A King James Version "The Companion Bible" would help in this same manner. Plus it will refer by # the Hebrew and Greek meaning of each word.

~In Christ ~In The Light ~Peace

This is an interesting question.

I believe that in the end we will see that the Bible is absolutely true down to the lase "jot and tittle". However we do not always understand the meaning, context or idiom for a particular text. Many of our widely held beliefs are not taken from the bible but from someone elses interpretation of what the words mean.

And Man tacting on his traditions.



Example: Most Christians believe that Jesus was born in a stable.

And man leads everyone to believe it was Dec 25 that Jesus was born when actually the 25 was the conception day.

This is why everyone should read the bible themselves and allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide. Asking for God's help and wisdom in prayer can change your life.

[quote=sndbay]And Man tacting on his traditions.




And man leads everyone to believe it was Dec 25 that Jesus was born when actually the 25 was the conception day.

This is why everyone should read the bible themselves and allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide. Asking for God's help and wisdom in prayer can change your life.[/quote


The fact is no one knows any dates of Christ Birth, most Christians teach and believe it is in the Spring because of the Sheperds in the fields with their flocks, Dec was only chosen as a day to celebrate his birth, or actually as a day to have a christian holiday, celebratoin of the birth of christ was chosen

The fact is no one knows any dates of Christ Birth, most Christians teach and beleive it is in the Spring because of the Sheperds in the fields with thier flocks, Dec was only chosen as a day to celebrate his birth, or actually as a day to have a christian holiday, celebratoin of the birth of christ was chosen


The King James Version/ Companion Bible index offers an Appendix which is the structure of the Books of the Old Testment According to the Hebrew Canon. Noted in Appendix 179 is parallel dating/ Date of "The Begetting" Jesus Birth according to Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. AND John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


From Conception, according to Jewish reckoning 280 days. AND Gentile reckoning 280 The chart of birth offered:
Day --- JEWISH Month --- Gentile Day

Day 1 Tebeth 1st ( Dec 25-26) December25
Day 8 Tebeth 8th ( Jan 1-2 )





Tebeth total 29 days December 25
7 days
Sebat 30 days January 31 days
Adar 29 days February 29 days
Nisan 30 March 31
Zif 29 April 30
Sivan 30 May 31
Thammuz 29 June 30
AB 30 July 31
Elul 29 August 31
Ethanim 15 September 29
280 Total

Concluded: 15TH of ETHANIM = SEPTEMBER 29, EMMUNUAL BORN


Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth

For these facts to be lock in by "The Massorah" the sixth month must have register in Jewish time as the month of TEBETH.

Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary.

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Well, I certainly celebrate the birth of my Savior but has anyone considered that HE never asked us to "remember" His birth? He asked us to remember His death with the wine and bread.

This is totally off the thread but I think it is far easier to remember a little baby in a manager... it is lots harder to think of a sinless, perfect man on the Cross dying for mankind. It begs the question... What will YOU do with Christ? The little sweet baby in the manager isn't nearly as intimidating OR controversial.

I am glad that some bible scholar in your bible posted their opinion based on their study as to when they believe these events to have happened, and you are free to accept them as valid, The most accept belief today is that Jesus was born in the spring, no exact dates of birth or conception is known.

It is written that Jesus asked us to commemorate his death and not his birth. Luke 22:19

I am glad that some bible scholar in your bible posted thier opinion based on thier study as to when they beleive these events to have happened, and you are free to accept them as valid, The most accept beleif today is that Jesus was born in the spring, no exact dates of birth or conception is known.


The Book: Are we all speaking of the same Book ? The Kings James Bible in my Christian opinion is the only true teaching of God's Word. The information was documented in the King James Version locked in safe keeping by The Massorah. Anyone can research the documentation of this ( Massorah ) on the web for sure.

What book other then this, has found that the King James Bible can not be referanced as truth or acceptable belief?

Concluded: 15TH of ETHANIM = SEPTEMBER 29, EMMUNUAL BORN


Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth

For these facts to be lock in by "The Massorah" the sixth month must have register in Jewish time as the month of TEBETH.

Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary.

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

I believe in the context of these verses, the sixth month refers to the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy.

Luke 1: 24-28
[24] After these days his wife Elizabeth conceived, and for five months she hid herself, saying,
[25] "Thus the Lord has done to me in the days when he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men."
[26] In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
[27] to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
[28] And he came to her and said, "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"

But where does the conception date come from? Sorry I see no reference to where the conception is, I do see where in the 6th month of Elizabeths pregnancy, Mary went to see her? But that does not give us a Calender date.

But where does the conception date come from ?? sorry I see no reference to where the conception is, I do see where in the 6th month of Elizabeths pregnancy, Mary went to see her ?? But that does not give us a Calender date.

That is why I pointed out the context of the verses. It's the sixth month of Elizabeths pregnancy. Not the sixth month of the year.

Well my thoughts lead me to think the conception was on the eve of her trip.. Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
Immediately the next version was her trip. . Luke 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

And so Mary on that day of arrival told Elisabeth, the babe leaped in Elisabeth's womb. ( I feel Elisabeth babe leaped for joy in the present of what the Holy Spirit in each knew was present. ) It is also why I am against abortion at any time.. The spiritual world most give little regard to, and many scripture refer how from the moment God places us here, meaning the importance of conception, we are on a path ordain by Him. Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

[QUOTE=sndbay]John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

In the verse following the one you give, John explains what Jesus was talking about. It needs no interpretation.

John 7:38-39
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
(KJV)

And to follow it up, as most christians know we have no idea of the actual birth of Christ, and Jesus never asked us to ever celebrate his birthday, and in fact for a christian it should be the more minor church holiday, behid that of Easter, Passover and other church holidays have a much more importance over the history of christianity.

Also one of the reasons Jesus did not ask was that birthdays were not celebrated at that time in history. And the celebration of Christ birth was not done for a few centuries after his death and only done so christians would not stand out when pagans where doing their celbrations, so the church picked something to celebrate during the time the pagans were doing their holidays so that first they could meet and fellowhsip for a reason and second they would not stand out from the other people, since being a christians was still illegal.

And of course what people, esp americans see and do for christmas has more pagan in it, than true worship of christ plus it has been hijacked by the advertising people.

Also one of the reasons Jesus didnot ask was that birthdays were not celebrated at that time in history.

I just disagree a little. Birthdays are already being celebrated during that time. Mark 6:21 And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief estates of Galilee;

I think the reason why Christ did not command us to celebrate His birthday because we should abide with the Truth. Isn't it that Christ was begotten by the Father even before the creation? (Hebrew 5:1-5) Thus, setting birthday in man's way would be a lie because it is not His real birthday.

I think the reason why Christ did not command us to celebrate His birthday because we should abide with the Truth. Isn't it that Christ was begotten by the Father even before the creation? (Hebrew 5:1-5) Thus, setting birthday in man's way would be a lie because it is not His real birthday.



As a Christian it is important that we acknowledge and worship Christ Jesus the begotten Son of God. And as you said, Christ was with God from the beginning as John 1:1 speaks of Christ, as the Word.
I believe the world wants to celebrate Christmas, to worship the arrival of the begotten Son. But of course today, satan's work has made it into a commercial holiday, rather then just God's Truth of His Son.

The scripture you noted Hebrew 5:1-4 was the subject and time frame of what was spoken.

Hebrews 5:1-4 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Then there is a question noted in verse 5.

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Then the Truth spoken in answer to that question in verse 6..

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

So I would say Christ's birth as a man into the world, begotten of the Father has been set forth not to be a lie.. . But rather that we should believe in Truth as you had said, and speak of that Truth being born unto this world.
Bringing forth the Truth should be acceptable.. And in my opinion, God does that in many ways to those that will hear.

It is written that Jesus asked us to commemorate his death and not his birth. Luke 22:19

KJV Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The Truth is to commemorate and give thanks for the sacrifice Christ made for us with His body and blood.

(It says nothing of Not remembering His birth.. ) You have added that, so that can not be known as truth.

sndbay, you may notice that Eccl 7:1 states "A name is better than good oil, and the day of death than the day of one's being born."

Surely if Jesus birth is the most important of all men to celebrate, God would have recorded the exact date in the bible?

sndbay, you may notice that Eccl 7:1 states "A name is better than good oil, and the day of death than the day of one's being born."

Surely if Jesus birth is the most important of all men to celebrate, God would have recorded the exact date in the bible?

The twist of word is not what I want to debate, yet I did not say most important to celebrate. However I do believe the birth of Christ is very important just as all Truth of Him is very important. Christ birth is recorded from the beginning down through the generations. That is why Eve is called the mother of all living.. Without Christ we were all doomed . It is very important we understand the Key of David which God states open the doors of heaven. John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

This is all important in that it brings us to worship Christ as our Savior, and that we find Christ body and blood worthy to have been sacificed..

Eccl 7:1 is telling us our name is better then oil because it shows your goodness and love for others. That you are not hidding as a theft or murder. And the day of death is better then the day you were born because life is not has good here on earth as it will be in heaven.

Surely you can see the importants of understanding and acknowledging Christ and all His Truth... He is all Glory, Honor, and Praise

I don't think setting His birthday is truth neither. The first reason is we don't know the exact date of His birth. Secondly, 1 Corinthians 4:6 does not allow us to: And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

This the only verse I know that Jesus said how He wants us to commemorate Him: Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me

Matthew 28:20 states Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
If Christmas is such an important event for the Christians, did Jesus forget? I don't think so.

I don't think setting His birthday is truth neither. The first reason is we don't know the exact date of His birth. .
Go back and read the previous discussion that have shown the facts on this as it is written.The bible when read and taken as truth can answer questions, and I do not for a moment believe, God left out anything.


Secondly, 1 Corinthians 4:6 does not allow us to: And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. .

This gospel was given so that man does not put themselves above what is written.
Read further 1 Corinthians 4:16 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.



This the only verse I know that Jesus said how He wants us to commemorate Him: Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me

Matthew 28:20 states Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
If Christmas is such an important event for the Christians, did Jesus forget? I don't think so.

In all that you have offered in scripture added to what I am saying.. The Bibile is the Word and the Word is Christ. All that is written is of Truth. That would include Christ's Birth.

Look back to what first started this #22Originally Posted by Criado
I think the reason why Christ did not command us to celebrate His birthday because we should abide with the Truth. Isn't it that Christ was begotten by the Father even before the creation? (Hebrew 5:1-5) Thus, setting birthday in man's way would be a lie because it is not His real birthday.
Reply Sndbay = Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

But rather that we should believe in Truth as you had said, and speak of that Truth being born unto this world.
Bringing forth the Truth should be acceptable.. And in my opinion, God does that in many ways to those that will hear. From what I read you agree with this...

Go back and read the previous discussion that have shown the facts on this as it is written.The bible when read and taken as truth can answer questions, and I do not for a moment believe, God left out anything.

Are you referring to your post #10 regarding this matter?


Look back to what first started this #22Originally Posted by Criado
I think the reason why Christ did not command us to celebrate His birthday because we should abide with the Truth. Isn't it that Christ was begotten by the Father even before the creation? (Hebrew 5:1-5) Thus, setting birthday in man's way would be a lie because it is not His real birthday.
Reply Sndbay = Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

But rather that we should believe in Truth as you had said, and speak of that Truth being born unto this world.
Bringing forth the Truth should be acceptable.. And in my opinion, God does that in many ways to those that will hear. From what I read you agree with this...

I think I made myself clear in post #22. It is undeniably true that Jesus came here in flesh but "Jesus was born" is one thing and "setting His birth date" is another thing.

I think I made myself clear in post #22. It is undeniably true that Jesus came here in flesh but "Jesus was born" is one thing and "setting His birth date" is another thing.

Yeah and I agree the established born was Jesus as evidence, but also factor in that which is written, the given conclusion as to when His birth was according to Hebrew time frame. # 10 did offer that breakdown as found in the KJV bible

The original discussion went to saying how holidays today do not hold true to the exact motive as what the scriptures contain. Where the breakdown helps to take us back to truth rather then traditions of man.

Yeah and I agree the established born was Jesus as evidence, but also factor in that which is written, the given conclusion as to when His birth was according to Hebrew time frame. # 10 did offer that breakdown as found in the KJV bible
But the problem is the accuracy of the reckoning. I understand that the intention of celebrating is good but I don't think we should.

But the problem is the accuracy of the reckoning. I understand that the intention of celebrating is good but I don't think we should.

And intention for celebration is within the heart, and not as tradition has shown it. So also safe to assume Easter should not be tradition as it is today but rather as Christ being our Passover in Honor and Praise within the heart, mind and soul

Yup; but then again, the real problem is the accuracy of reckoning. Sometimes even if our intention is good or lawful, it may not be expedient.

I was going through my questions on this site and found this is a question I believe to be very much relevant and on my mind today. I have noticed on my FB page that most people ( Christians and non) are much more likely to believe the bible isn't absolute truth. They applaud leaders who believe the bible is not as much black and white as it is gray.

I think the church in general has failed. I believe it is because our pulpits are not preaching grace like Paul preached it. it is the goodness of God that causes man to repent. That isn't what we hear on Sunday mornings. I heard a pastor say it was the goodness of God that SOMETIMES causes men to repent. Their thinking being people will sin like crazy if they think they are always forgiven if they are saved. They are afraid if they tell everyone there isn't anything they can do to be out of God's favor, people will live sinful lives.


However Paul is clear on this topic, where sin abounds... grace super abounds. If God isn't afraid of this message... why are we?

I personally believe if people understood the gospel of grace, they wouldn't be so attracted to spiritual leaders who no longer believe God's word is absolute truth. There will always be those that need to believe the bible is mostly gray, but I submit that if grace was preached appropriately, most people wouldn't object to believing God at his word. The bible says.. "Thy word is Truth." I believe it. I see that as freeing. But then I know I am loved unconditionally. Not because of what I do or don't do but because of what Christ is and has done.

The more I understand how much I am loved, how much Jesus paid for and how I am no longer under any condemnation;the less I sin. I am a big believer that believing right really does make you live right. Believing the bible is absolute truth is no longer a scary or offensive thought if we understand grace. Any thoughts?

Hi classy - I agree with what you are saying. I'd like to add that the reason "preachers" shun that kind of message is that they are more inclined to want to rule over people through fear and intimidation. So for them, teaching about grace gives them little control over the the flock and that's not good for them.

Secondly, where there is grace preached, I think the church has still failed because although people are hearing the message of grace, people are indifferent to it. America is a country where we ask "what does my neighbor have to do with me?" People are selfish and unwilling to bear with others and be about others. People are concerned for their own pleasure and have little time for others. The reason the church has failed I think is largely because though it has the message of grace, people do not care enough about others to bring hope to those who seek it. I hear this from many people, myself included, about how the church talks a lot about community and family, but it is only an illusion.

I think it takes a little love from a few to inspire many.

Jakester,

Burn... ouch. Yeah we are definitely off course.

I think you are right even when grace is preached people are indifferent. But could it be they really don't understand it. The bible says we love him because he first loved us. Could it be we don't comprehend how much we are loved?

I am struggling right now because the church I attend is doing an entire sermon series on the 10 commandments. I am at a complete loss as to why they would preach the ministry of death when they could be unveiling the loveliness and beauty of the Lord Jesus Christ. I guess until our pastors and leaders get a revelation on love and grace our pulpits are bound to be law oriented and self focused. Just my thoughts.

I get what you're saying, but I always have difficulty with the phrase "absolute truth." The problem is that it means different things to different people. Too many people think it means "everything is literally true." If that's the case then 1 Sam 13:1 is a problem, because it says "Saul was years old when he became king." Our translations usually supply "30" because a few very late copies of the Septuagint have it. In the Hebrew, there's no number. So I have difficulty seeing such a statement as "literally true." Revelation 4:6-8? Are those monsters literal? If they are, heaven sounds like one scary place! The list goes on. One person sees these things and understands that we're dealing with various types of literature and language, figures of speech, word pictures and all the rest, as well as problems with the way the Bible has come down to us, a la 1 Sam 13:1 (obviously a word has dropped out somewhere along the way). But another person sees those problems and can't acknowledge them, because it's all or nothing for them: either we have a perfect King James just the way Paul wrote it, or we're tearing down the Scriptures and the faith.

The truth is, there ARE a lot of gray areas in the Bible. At least one person lies and God praises them for it. There's a lot of that sort of thing, and we don't do ourselves any good by not facing it and dealing with it.

Tess - I believe that there are people in the church who struggle with their self-worth, having been beaten down by the law... I've been there before, part of churches that did that, and presently know people who are coming out of those environments. But interestingly enough, those same people are concerned for the lives of others because even though their knowledge of God's grace is a struggle, they have enough knowledge of his love and grace to put that knowledge into action. However, there are people who prefer the law because it fits their worldview: they already believe they are better than sinners, that they aren't like the other slobs out there. Obviously people who think that way don't understand God nor themselves.

On the other hand, I've been part of churches that are very good about communicating the love and grace of God. I didn't detect that there was a spirit of oppression that was interfering with people's understanding of beauty of Christ. And yet people hardly knew each other at all. I would talk with people and ask how they knew so and so and they would say "oh, I know that person here in church but don't know them that well." These folks were coming to church for years and didn't know their fellow congregants at all. If love starts in the household of God and people don't really know each other at all, how has the the true love of God penetrated their hearts?

I think that in this present age, there is simultaneously a need for love and yet a belief that we are special. Kids are growing up being told they are special and as a result, they become self-absorbed, petulant, little monsters. Grace and the love of Jesus may not penetrate the armor of such people, so that is the place the law of God has... it brings people to the knowledge of sin that can lead to repentance. Simply telling somebody that God loves them and trying to unveil "the loveliness and beauty of the Lord Jesus Christ" might be received as "of course God loves me, I'm awesome."

Your point is well-taken and I think it is a worthy message; I think that it really depends upon the person and where he is at in terms of his self-perspective. Your idea may be well received from people who desperately need that assurance of God's love. But others need a different message to get them to the place where they understand that they are not worthy. Matthew 24 tells us that in the latter days men will fall away from the faith and the love of many will grow cold. It seems to me that we are living in that age. That is my take anyway.

I get what you're saying, but I always have difficulty with the phrase "absolute truth." The problem is that it means different things to different people. Too many people think it means "everything is literally true." If that's the case then 1 Sam 13:1 is a problem, because it says "Saul was years old when he became king." Our translations usually supply "30" because a few very late copies of the Septuagint have it. In the Hebrew, there's no number. So I have difficulty seeing such a statement as "literally true." Revelation 4:6-8? Are those monsters literal? If they are, heaven sounds like one scary place! The list goes on. One person sees these things and understands that we're dealing with various types of literature and language, figures of speech, word pictures and all the rest, as well as problems with the way the Bible has come down to us, a la 1 Sam 13:1 (obviously a word has dropped out somewhere along the way). But another person sees those problems and can't acknowledge them, because it's all or nothing for them: either we have a perfect King James just the way Paul wrote it, or we're tearing down the Scriptures and the faith.

The truth is, there ARE a lot of gray areas in the Bible. At least one person lies and God praises them for it. There's a lot of that sort of thing, and we don't do ourselves any good by not facing it and dealing with it.

I don't often visit here anymore. But I have to say that this is very well put. Well done Dave.

Tuttyd-

is that you TUT?

Jake

I hear you, I do. The thing is if grace was preached properly there would be less of self. Grace is all about Jesus and when people get that, self becomes less and less important. There just isn't any room for self-righteous people.

I believe the law is a natural way of believing. In other words, people who don't even claim to be Christians get the law. If you do good you get good, it you do bad, you get bad. Grace is NOT the natural way to think. I think the reason our churches are a mess is because if they DO preach grace, they balance it out with a little law. Just in case someone gets it in their head they can run wild.

If grace were taught the way Paul taught it I don't think we would be cold or lukewarm. If Jesus were glorified in the pulpits and revealed we would be on fire. Unfortunately, that isn't being done. Instead many churches are focusing on what we as Christian aren't but should be. We already know that. I want to know what we are in Christ, what we have in Christ. That is exciting.. we are a new creation. But you would never know it on Sunday mornings in America. Most places are preaching what we ought to be and guess what. This is why Church is in the state it is in. Even most worships songs are all about us and what we are going to do. "I surrender all...I surrender all." me me me me me. Let's worship Jesus, lets put him in his rightful place on the throne. Let's sing about him and leave us out of it. Frankly, we suck.

Just some thoughts.


Dave,

The monsters you are referring to are the living creatures around the throne of God... right? I don't know why they couldn't be literal creatures around God's throne. But even if they are symbolic, it doesn't make the bible not truth. I don't get your thought process.

Please give me the example of when someone lied and God praised him for it. I'm not sure what you are referring to but would love to read up on that.

First of all, if Jesus' comments are any indication, God doesn'ht have a literal throne because God is a spirit. And if there are monsters like that near the throne, I'm staying away. It should be obvious that these are symbolic; eyes all over them, inside and out? That's way beyond ridiculous, and if God is really creating beasts like that, one might question his sobriety.

And the lie? Joshua 2. Not only did God praise her, but she got to be part of Jesus' lineage.

And I never said that if the monsters aren't literal then it isn't truth. You might want to reread what I wrote.

Dave,

Sit down. I have some bad news for you. Your thoughts aren't God's thoughts your ways aren't God's ways. I don't know what those creatures are. I don't know if they are real or not neither do you. I am more inclined to believe it is symbolic but hey, God can do what he wants. I think you can be borderline ridiculous and he made you. ;)

That's what I thought you were talking about. Rahab the harlot. It is interesting she was an example that James used in his book.as well as he used Abraham and Isaac these two cases are really not morally correct incidences, Any thoughts on why?

Jake

I hear you, I do. The thing is if grace was preached properly there would be less of self. Grace is all about Jesus and when people get that, self becomes less and less important. There just isn't any room for self-righteous people.

I believe the law is a natural way of believing. In other words, people who don't even claim to be Christians get the law. If you do good you get good, it you do bad, you get bad. Grace is NOT the natural way to think. I think the reason our churches are a mess is because if they DO preach grace, they balance it out with a little law. Just in case someone gets it in their head they can run wild.

If grace were taught the way Paul taught it I don't think we would be cold or lukewarm. If Jesus were glorified in the pulpits and revealed we would be on fire. Unfortunately, that isn't being done. Instead many churches are focusing on what we as Christian aren't but should be. We already know that. I want to know what we are in Christ, what we have in Christ. That is exciting.. we are a new creation. But you would never know it on Sunday mornings in America. Most places are preaching what we ought to be and guess what. This is why Church is in the state it is in. Even most worships songs are all about us and what we are going to do. "I surrender all...I surrender all." me me me me me. Let's worship Jesus, lets put him in his rightful place on the throne. Let's sing about him and leave us out of it. Frankly, we suck.

Just some thoughts.

Tess - I do absolutely believe that where grace is preached, people truly respond. Teaching a message consistent with the Pharisees message of believe in Jesus but be a Jew and abstain from shellfish to be saved is not the biblical gospel. Paul set out to correct that misunderstanding throughout most of his epistles. However, and I think you'd agree, nobody was more equipped to teach a message of grace than Paul was and yet, you can clearly see that Paul was constantly having to defend his teachings, his apostleship, and much of the gospel in his epistles to the different churches. So if you what you say is true, that if people truly understood grace better there would be less of self, then what would say to the issues Paul faced when teaching grace?

For example, some people were vain and proud in their affiliation to one group of people over another. Remember when Paul addressed the church at Corinth, he was dealing with schisms: "For whenever someone says, "I'm with Paul," and another, "I'm with Apollos," are you not unspiritual people?" Paul had taught the Corinthian church grace and yet they were pitting themselves against each other and being about self, rather than Christ. Paul has to get in their face a bit about this and rebuke them for being unspiritual. The people were missing the point about unity in the gospel and that Paul and Apollos were BOTH ministers of the gospel, not two different people to be followed. Their Lord was who they should follow and they should have merely respected these men for who they were in relationship to the ministry of Christ.

One last thing. In Revelation, Jesus rebukes the church of Laodicea for being lukewarm. I find it interesting that if this church were lukewarm due to their lack of understanding of God's grace, wouldn't it be more appropriate for Jesus to rebuke the pastor(s) of that church for not clearly articulating the idea of grace with respect to their articulation of it? But he doesn't, he actually rebukes the church (and presumably the leaders as well) for their confidence in their wealth and status. His message to them is to repent, not to learn more about his grace.

I hope I don't sound like I'm attacking you because that is not my spirit in writing this. I'm just trying to challenge your assumption that people need to merely understand grace more in order to be effective for God. While I'm not denying the relevance of that, because it is incredibly relevant, it's just that some issues cannot be related to grace necessarily... sometimes we have other issues we are dealing with that need to be confronted differently.

Just some thoughts. ;)

Jakester,

I am not easily offended by you at all. I am glad for your thoughts and you brought out many things I hadn't considered. I need to study this more and gather my thoughts. Still not ready to let go of this notion of more Grace needs preached but need to think about some of the issues you listed. Thanks

Jake

I hear you, I do. The thing is if grace was preached properly there would be less of self. Grace is all about Jesus and when people get that, self becomes less and less important. There just isn't any room for self-righteous people.

I believe the law is a natural way of believing. In other words, people who don't even claim to be Christians get the law. If you do good you get good, it you do bad, you get bad. Grace is NOT the natural way to think. I think the reason our churches are a mess is because if they DO preach grace, they balance it out with a little law. Just in case someone gets it in their head they can run wild.

If grace were taught the way Paul taught it I don't think we would be cold or lukewarm. If Jesus were glorified in the pulpits and revealed we would be on fire. Unfortunately, that isn't being done. Instead many churches are focusing on what we as Christian aren't but should be. We already know that. I want to know what we are in Christ, what we have in Christ. That is exciting.. we are a new creation. But you would never know it on Sunday mornings in America. Most places are preaching what we ought to be and guess what. This is why Church is in the state it is in. Even most worships songs are all about us and what we are going to do. "I surrender all...I surrender all." me me me me me. Let's worship Jesus, lets put him in his rightful place on the throne. Let's sing about him and leave us out of it. Frankly, we suck.

Just some thoughts.

I just wanted to add that I do totally appreciate where you are coming from. I do hear people and pastors get beat down, beat others down, and beat themselves down about "not being what we ought to be." Quite frankly, sometimes it sounds like one big pity party. Yes, we are not what we ought to be... and the truth is that we will never be what we ought to be this side of heaven. But should we focus on what we are not? No, we should focus on what Jesus has done for us and rejoice in that because what else can we do? He is our hope. He is our life. Without him we are nothing and we can do nothing of eternal importance.

But if we can move on from that, there comes an opportunity for us to embrace our position in the Lord and start to see that our lives are important to God and others. We have an opportunity to influence people according to the hope that we have in Christ. And God willing, we will have such opportunities in his time. But if we are constantly beating ourselves up or concerning ourselves with what we are not, we become impotent. We lose the ability to have influence on others because we are constantly seeing ourselves in the negative, and others will see that as well. On the contrary, when we are honest about ourselves in light of the gospel, our moral failures together with our hope in Christ's redemption allow us to speak authoritatively. What I mean is that we can tell others about Christ and show his love because we have traversed that divide. We understand that we are unworthy of God's mercy and yet radically, he has chosen to forgive us in spite of ourselves. Like one of my favorite bible teachers (Steve Brown) says, “we are beggars showing others where to find the Bread.” Moreover, because of our confidence in Christ to forgive us, we can have the freedom to live each day confidently that in the end, my life will find significance in the kingdom of heaven. I no longer need to live in fear of God's punishment or in fear that if I don't get it right, God will not be pleased with me. We are one with Christ in spite of all that we aren't and he is not ashamed to call us brothers.

I found that once I was able to settle that issue for myself and rejoice in the hope that I have in Christ, I didn't' worry about his judgment anymore. I started to concern myself more with the question “what would you have me do for you Lord?” I have found incredible freedom in that. I don't have to beat myself up anymore. I can be honest with myself when I need to be about where I need to grow but I can also find satisfaction in the person that God has already started to create according to the new birth. I can boast in Christ and what he has done for me in giving me wisdom and teaching me about life's most important truths. I can boast in my sufferings by knowing that my faith has been tested and I am still fighting the good fight of faith. These things become very attractive to those who are hungry for the truth. But if I walk around like Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh, saying “oh gee, woe is me. I'm just a dirty, stinken, rotten sinner”, how would anyone find that attractive? How would people really see that God is loving, merciful and kind, if all I have to say is how unworthy or bad I am? Now, it's important for someone who hasn't understood the gospel to hear that part of the message because it is central to the message. But the message is also one of hope and mercy and a place with God in his kingdom.

So ultimately, I am agreeing with your stance about teaching grace and why that is so significant. Sometimes I think that our culture has become a lot like that of the Laodicean church where we are lukewarm because our prosperity and wealth has caused us to stumble. We have forgotten that we are naked and weak and that we can do nothing apart from Christ. It's this distinction that I am trying to make.

JAKE!

I had the most awesome response to you. It took like an hour to word just right and when I posted the stupid thing the site kicked me off and I lost it. I think I swore... ( OK, I know i did :D) sigh... I will try again. It will take me awhile.. but I will reply to you.

Tess - here's an idea, when you type a response, create it in a Word Document first and then when you are finished, copy and paste it into the box in the "Answer this question" section. This way if it crashes, you'll still have your work in another location so you don't lose it. That's what I do every time before posting because the same problem happened to me before.

Well normally I remember to copy and paste when I am taking awhile but I didn't remember tonight. Talk about frustrating. I never created it in a Word Document though, GREAT idea.

Dave,

Sit down. I have some bad news for you. Your thoughts aren't God's thoughts your ways aren't God's ways. I don't know what those creatures are. I don't know if they are real or not neither do you. I am more inclined to believe it is symbolic but hey, God can do what he wants. I think you can be borderline ridiculous and he made you.

That's what I thought you were talking about. Rahab the harlot. It is interesting she was an example that James used in his book.as well as he used Abraham and Isaac these two cases are really not morally correct incidences, Any thoughts on why?

I have seen people insist that those creatures have to be literal. I don't think I'm the one who's ridiculous there!

Another example of a lie that God apparently was okay with: 1 Kings 13. This old boy didn't just lie, he gave the other man a false prophecy and lied about an angel giving him a message. Yet, he was never punished, and he got his wish to be buried next to the other prophet.

And I do have one thought as to why:

I have no idea. That's my thought.

(This is a reply to the original post)


Absolute truth? No.

In one part of the Bible, God tells his followers to slay all the men, women and children. In another part of the Bible, God tells his followers to love their enemy.


Written by men? Definitely.

Many Bible books are beautiful and full of wisdom. The Psalms, the Gospels, Job, all the Wisdom literature, etc.


Final authority? No.

One reason being there are so many different interpretations of the Bible books. One's "final authority" is another's "You're wrong".


Inspired by God? Yes.

In the sense that all great art and literature is inspired by God, so also the Bible.


A good, essential, question.


//edit - I just noticed the original post was over FIVE YEARS AGO!! Good grief. I must be getting old//

Regarding the original question. I certainly believe the bible was inspired by god and therefore is the only true authority we can reference.

Of course as others have noted, sometimes it is hard to understand what's being said, what is meant literally and what is meant figuratively. It's also hard to understand why some actions were either condone or directed by God and seemingly contradicted elsewhere in the bible.

Now I know a lot of people answer tough questions with "you just have to have faith" or something to that extent. Typically I'm not a fan of that response (as their usually is a direct answer in the bible... you don't need to take it on faith alone, research... ) but I will say this, I do have faith that God has made it possible through his word the bible that we can understand what he wants us to do and how we should live our life. The many prophecies found in the bible and confirmed by secular scholars is all the proof needed to assure us that God has inspired the bible and it is indeed his word.

The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.” 30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. 31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. - Acts 8:29-31 (NIV)

Truly beginning to understand what God is trying to tell us requires many things
- Being humble enough to admit that we need help to fully understand it
- Praying for holy spirit to help us understand
- Actually reading his word and meditating on it
- Reading with an open mind when we're reading it. We need his word to mold us but that will not happen if we're not open to what he's trying to tell us through his word

But now, O Jehovah, you are our Father. We are the clay, and you are our Potter; We are all the work of your hand. - Isaiah 64:8 (NWT)

Now I know a lot of people answer tough questions with "you just have to have faith" or something to that extent. Typically I'm not a fan of that response (as their usually is a direct answer in the bible... you don't need to take it on faith alone, research... ) but I will say this, I do have faith that God has made it possible through his word the bible that we can understand what he wants us to do and how we should live our life.

I couldn't agree more. "Just have faith" is a cop-out. The Bible isn't going to tell us everything we want to know. But it does tell us what we need to know.