I attended our city's pride parade this past weekend. Behind the parade marched a scraggly gang of about 5 protestors (in comparison with the 200,000 who attended the parade and celebration, it was quite a small group). I found myself extremely angry with these people, walking around with their signs and megaphones, proclaiming that we are all sinners, perverts, undeserving of civil rights or any protections, condemning us to hell, angrily yelling out scripture verses... I wanted to try to talk to them, try to have some sort of conversation- but they were unapproachable, and made every effort to completely humiliate those who did approach them (yelling into megaphones about what sinners they were and how they were doomed to hell).

While I understand that homosexuality may be against the religious beliefs of some individuals, I fail to understand a number of things. Firstly, since when is it okay to believe that the religious morals of a group can be imposed upon those who don't share those same beliefs? If you believe that being gay is immoral, don't be gay. If I believe being gay is okay, and I am gay, then let me be. It's not as though the issue the issue at hand is something like MURDER- where if you think it's wrong, you don't murder, but I can because I don't see a problem with it. Gay people aren't hurting anyone. The protestors, I'm sure, would argue that we are. But I fail to see how working hard, contributing to my community, volunteering, going to school... doing EVERYTHING I would be doing whether I was straight or gay... how all of that is somehow soiled by who I go to sleep with at night. How all of a sudden, I'm a detriment to my society. Because I'm not producing children? In this already hiddeously overpopulated world... I don't think that's really an issue. What else could it be then? What makes me, and my partner, and my gay friends WORSE people than anyone else? Nothing. And if we're not hurting anyone, and all we want is to be regarded as people with rights equal to those that are afforded to anyone else, and then just to be left alone to live our lives... why is that something to go out and protest?

Secondly, what exactly do these people intend to accomplish by protesting on Pride weekend? Surely they can't believe that carrying signs and yelling at people is a sure-fire method to convert them, can they? Especially during a time when we're out celebrating who we are, proud of who we are, after existing in a society that has forced shame upon us for years and years... people who have lost their jobs, their families, their friends just be able to be who they are... people who have had to hide who they were out of fear of harassment, condemnation, abandonment... and now subjecting them to this kind of public ridicule for not adhering to religious morals that are not their own? It seems so petty, so strange, so unproductive. Their presence really came off as more of a self-gratifying one rather than any genuine 'mission' to save our 'lost souls'. They're just up on their self-righteous pedestals all day, degrading people who don't fit into their belief system. They can't imagine that they were really going to accomplish anything, can they? If their true intentions were to reach out to people, to change them, to convert them, to 'help' them, why take on such an aggressive approach? Why carry signs that put down and degrade the people they're trying to reach? Why humiliate people publicly with a megaphone, with nasty signs, with ignorant misuse of scripture? It just really boggles my mind.

Aren't Christians supposed to walk in the footsteps of their Christ? Would Jesus publicly berate someone who he felt needed guidance/help/salvation? And honestly, in a world as crazy and screwed up and hate-filled as we live in today, how can you condemn someone for loving someone else? It just seems so illogical. As a former Christian, it really just blows my mind the way that some people behave.

I would really love to get some feedback/thoughts on this and have a discussion about it. Any takers?

I would really love to get some feedback/thoughts on this and have a discussion about it. Any takers?
Well. Let me react on your post...

Of course it is religious intolerance that causes certain believers to attack other views. They reject in their religious bias important freedoms that allow others to be and act what they are and/or want.
Nobody is telling them that they should do what they oppose. Nobody is forcing them to do what they reject.
But STILL they can not tolerate another view than their own.

That is not only the case with homosexuality. It comes back almost everywhere and in everything.
Suicide, euthanasia, abortion, sexuality... almost in every important decision in a human life the intolerant theists try to control and meddle with their religious views.

Yes, Christ would have forgave them of their sin, shown them they sin and told them to go home and sin no more. But sadly the sinner today do not wish to do that.

And yes, christians are also subject to the same abuse when they try to have their gatherings of 100's of thousand also. But the issue is is the legal right of both sides to protest.

For example in Atlanta the "gay" right parade they even tried to get the rights of christians to protest taken away. And they show their pride by public nudity that that police will not stop and the city turns a blind eye to. Yes here in Atlanta they do make a statement for their movement, a sickening one

Yes, Christ would have forgave them of thier sin, shown them they sin and told them to go home and sin no more. But sadly the sinner today do not wish to do that.

And didn't Jesus tell his disciples that if they came to a town that rejected them, to wipe the dust from their sandles and move on? If it's obvious that the gay community is not going away... it's existed for thousands of years, it exists among humans and animals alike... and it seems fairly clear that we will continue to be who we are and live and work alongside the straight members of our communities... so why create such unnecessary tension? What can they hope to accomplish? Why do they feel the need to push and push and push against a group that just wants to be left alone and given equality. Additionally, this is not a 'sin' that is accepted universally as a 'sin', especially by gay people- If someone was doing something that was wrong, that was harming someone else, that was taking away from another persons basic rights or human dignity... then I can understand condemning that. But homosexuality is such a debatable issue, and it depends largely upon what an individuals perception is filtered through, especially religion.

christians are also subject to the same abuse when they try to have thier gatherings of 100's of thousand also.

And I think that's equally saddening. But I still feel that that is slightly different. Christians may have to deal with protestors who are against them for what they BELIEVE. We have to deal with protestors who are against us for WHO WE ARE. It hurts at a different level.

For example in Atlanta the "gay" right parade they even tried to get the rights of christians to protest taken away. And they show thier pride by public nudity that that police will not stop and the city turns a blind eye to. yes here in Atlanta they do make a statement for thier movement, a sickening one

I don't think that's necessarily taking away their 'right to protest'. I believe that there's a time and place for certain people. You wouldn't want protestors at your wedding, at a funeral, at a birthday party... Pride is a celebration and commemoration of the Stonewall Riots which were the beginning of the gay rights movement. We're not necessarily trying to make a statement all the time- sometimes we just want to have a day to celebrate who we are, to celebrate the diversity within our community, to celebrate how far we've come (although we still have quite a ways to go), be around people who are like us, who we don't feel are judging us for being who we are- and the presence of protestors who are angrily and forcefully telling us that we should be ASHAMED of who we are, when we're trying to celebrate our pride in who we are... it's a hindrance to our ability to celebrate what we're there to celebrate. So while I understand that people have a right to protest, I think that we also have a right to gather without feeling harassed. How often does it happen that the gay community all turns out to celebrate something? ONCE A YEAR... let us have our time.

And parades differ from city to city as far as how rowdy they get, if there's nudity... and again, I have to stress that this is not a PROTEST MARCH or a parade that is trying to make a statement for the movement... it's a celebration of the beginning of the gay rights movement...

Not everything that gay people do is intended to make a statement. And it's unfair to see it that way. And other parades (i.e. Puerto Rican Day Parade, Mardi Gras, etc) also involve people who are scantily clad or partially/fully nude- no one sees that as people 'making a statement for their cause'- it's a party and people get rowdy- try to see the gay pride parade the same way.

Well, I don't agree with those protesters, the way they dealt with the situation, but I also don't agree with homosexuals. As a former Christian even you should know the scripture where it talks about homosexuality being wrong, unless you just called yourself a christian. Just because somebody calls themselves a christian, but doesn't show it in there daily walk, than to me they are not. I don't want you to get offended, because everything I do I try to do in love, not condemnation.

Some people hate everyone who is not exactly like them.
Example: http://networkupload.com/adfree/youmakemesick.jpg

If the self-righteous would live their own lives and stop others from telling them how to live theirs, those who feel discriminated against would lose that feeling and would need no reason to protest or march in the first place...

If the self-righteous would live their own lives and stop others from telling them how to live theirs....
But that is precisely the problem : because of their religious based bias and intolerance they can't !

:rolleyes:

Your banging your head against a brick wall here. Don't you see it. Those who believe you are wrong will never be convinced otherwise. It is like them trying to convince me god exists. They won't. Be comfortable with who you are and don't give these people the time of day. They aren't worth it frankly. And I think you already know that!

Skell : I assume you were addressing me, so :


Be comfortable with who you are
Oh, but I am very comfortable with that. People who really know me will confirm that!


... and dont give these people the time of day.
Au contraire ! It are the theists here who clearly show to feel uncomfortable with their own faillure to support their own religious claims.


They arent worth it frankly. And i think you already know that!
May be some of them are indeed not worth it. But many others are. And I post here for my own reasons, not for theirs !

Thanks!

;)

Skell : I assume you were addressing me, so :


Oh, but I am very comfortable with that. People who really know me will confirm that!


Au contraire ! It are the theists here who clearly show to feel uncomfortable with their own faillure to support their own religious claims.


May be some of them are indeed not worth it. But many others are. And I post here for my own reasons, not for theirs !

Thanks!

;)

You assumed wrong. I was addressing the original poster. Therefore the rest of your post does not apply nor make sense to me! Thanks :)

You assumed wrong. I was addressing the original poster. Therefore the rest of your post does not apply nor make sense to me! Thanks :)
It would help if you state in future posts who you are addressing...
Ok. Than my previous post does indeed not apply to you. Never-the-less : what I posted made a lot of sense, and were correct statements.

;)

It would help if you state in future posts who you are addressing ...
Ok. Than my previous post does indeed not apply to you. Never-the-less : what I posted made a lot of sense, and were correct statements.

;)

Unless I quote someone assume I'm addressing the OP. Its pretty simple. I don't know why you would assume I was addressing you. ;)

Unless i quote someone assume im adressing the OP. Its pretty simple. I dont know why you would assume i was addressing you. ;)
I did because you posted your lines directly after my post on the board, 7 minutes later, while margog85's last entry here was two days ago.

:rolleyes:

People are unpleasant to one another because they are afraid. Fear of death, differences or worse, disgrace had brought many to argument and even murder.

Fear is ugly but necessary for us to revel in the absence of it.

People are unpleasant to one another because they are afraid. Fear of death, differences or worse, disgrace had brought many to argument and even murder.
Fear is ugly but necessary for us to revel in the absence of it.
You hear often about the fear of (and for) death. And I see that fear frequently in my volunteer work in the local hospes. But - taking away the religious installed and objectively unsupported wild claim for hell in the "afterlife" - what is there really to be feared in death?

I also like to live a long time in good health, to enjoy the presence and achievements of my wife, children, and grandchildren. I would sadly say goodbye to them once my time comes. But fear death?

Why would one fear death? Unless that fear has been installed in your mind by some religious bug or virus.

:rolleyes:

But - taking away the religious installed and objectively unsupported wild claim for hell in the "afterlife" - what is there really to be feared in death?

I can't remember the exact quote or from where, but it went something like... Once you're dead you won't know it so as far as you know you'll always be alive.. .

Your banging your head against a brick wall here. Dont you see it. Those who believe you are wrong will never be convinced otherwise. It is like them trying to convince me god exists. They wont. Be comfortable with who you are and dont give these people the time of day. They arent worth it frankly. And i think you already know that!

I haven't been around here for a day or two... but yes, I do see that I am banging my head against a brick wall. I started another topic about homosexuality and asked for reasons from religious people as to why it's 'wrong' without referring to their religion since it doesn't apply to me. No one could really give a good reason, the reasons they gave were easily disputed, but they just couldn't open their minds to see it.

It's really frustrating, honestly. It's like someone is telling me the sky is green, and no matter how many times I SHOW them it's blue, they keep insisting otherwise.

I am comfortable with who I am, it just really peeves me that people can think such incorrect and rotten things about me- and those people, who can't argue their way out of a paper bag and can't give any solid reasons as to why who I am is such a detriment to society, are the people who feel that it's okay to look down on me, to tell me I'm going to hell, to fight tooth and nail against my ability to marry the person I love...

It's just so sad that people can have so much disdain for an entire group of people based purely on incorrect stereotypes, or because we make them feel 'uncomfortable' because we're 'just weird' and 'not normal'. I really don't think I'll ever be able to understand where they're coming from, no matter how hard I try.

Well, I don't agree with those protesters, the way they dealt with the situation, but I also don't agree with homosexuals. As a former Christian even you should know the scripture where it talks about homosexuality being wrong, unless you just called yourself a christian. Just because somebody calls themselves a christian, but doesn't show it in there daily walk, than to me they are not. I don't want you to get offended, because everything I do I try to do in love, not condemnation.

Well, if your post wasn't mean offensively, I will try not to take it offensively- even though that was my impression until I got to the last line... but please do not make assumptions about me- I used to be very involved in my church, volunteered all the time, spoke on retreats, and was very devoted to my beliefs... I won't get into the details of it all, but I assure you I wasn't just one of those 'my parents are christian, so I am too' types, where religion is inherited just like nationality is...

As far as the bible referring to homosexuality, 1. I have done a lot of research on the matter, and, not to go into the details here since it's not the topic of the post, a lot of what is said about 'homosexuality' in the bible really could be interpreted many ways. And 2. Even if I did believe that the bible said specific things regarding the sinfulness of homosexuality, as a non-Christian, I don't have to believe or live by those guidelines, I should not have those guidelines imposed upon me, and I should be able to celebrate who I am without being condemned for not abiding by religious morals which are not my own. It'd be like... a group of Catholics protesting a Kosher deli for selling meat on Fridays during Lent.

margog the issue is that you will not open your mind to some truth, you want it your way because you want your way period, And no homosexuality can not be interpreted many ways it is plain that it is wrong, the trouble is that you don't want to admit that you can be wrong, and that unless your way is "right" everyone else has to change their way of thinking and in the end you want to force everyone to accept your belief. In fact you are more guilty of forcing than those you are talking about
And in the end, moral values are and should be a consistent value. Those that see peverted sexual desires are moral are just wrong in every sense but if they wish to do their own desires, it should not be forced on others to have to view, accept and be given special levels.

margog the issue is that you will not open your mind to some truth, you want it your way because you want your way period, And no homosexuality can not be interpreted many ways it is plain that it is wrong, the trouble is that you don't want to admit that you can be wrong, and that unless your way is "right" everyone else has to change thier way of thinking and in the end you want to force everyone to accept your beleif. In fact you are more guilty of forcing than those you are talking about
And in the end, moral values are and should be a consistant value. Those that see peverted sexual desires are moral are just wrong in every sense but if they wish to do thier own desires, it should not be forced on others to have to view, accept and be given special levels.

Fr. Chuck, you know nothing about me, so please do not presume to. You make me out to be closed-minded and childish, when I think I have presented myself to be the exact opposite of those things. I am not trying to force anyone to accept MY belief, I am presenting logical arguments. If that makes you or anyone else uncomfortable, or causes anyone to feel pressured into thinking the way that I do, the only explanation for that is that there is truth in what I am saying that others do not want to see or admit to.

If you believe that debating an issue with logical arguments, not personal religious beliefs, makes me 'guilty of forcing' something upon people, then you are sadly mistaken. There is nothing wrong with debating an issue that is important to me, so do not try to convince me that there is. It will not work.

Additionally, do not present YOUR religion as universal TRUTH which should apply to everyone, and do not reduce my life down to 'perverted sexual desires'- there is more to me, to my relationship, to my existence than sexual desires which, mind you, are not in the least way 'perverted'.

And I'm not asking for my 'sexual desires' to be 'forced upon others to view, accept, and be given special levels'. Why can no one see that homosexuality is no more about 'sexual desire' than heterosexuality? And why can no one see that gays asking to be able to congregate and celebrate who they are without harassment, to marry the people we love, and to be able to walk down the street with our partner without getting dirty looks and whispers isn't asking anyone for a 'special' favor- straight people can do it every day without getting sh*t for it, so why can't I?

I havent been around here for a day or two.... but yes, I do see that I am banging my head against a brick wall. I started another topic about homosexuality and asked for reasons from religious people as to why it's 'wrong' without referring to their religion since it doesn't apply to me. No one could really give a good reason, the reasons they gave were easily disputed, but they just couldn't open their minds to see it.

It's really frustrating, honestly. It's like someone is telling me the sky is green, and no matter how many times I SHOW them it's blue, they keep insisting otherwise.


We're having the same prob for the same reasons discussing evolution on another board...

... It's like someone is telling me the sky is green, and no matter how many times I SHOW them it's blue, they keep insisting otherwise.


We're having the same prob for the same reasons discussing evolution on another board....
That's NOT the same or of the same validity !
One can provide objective supporting evidence for the sky being blue.
One can also provide objective supporting evidence for evolution to be the "motor" for all change to lifeforms.

However : for religion and for religious views there is no objective supported evidence : it is based on BELIEF and nothing else.

So religious based arguments on the issue at hand here (homo-sexuality) are totally meaningless, unless they are supported by any other objective supporting evidence, be that religious or non-religious.

As far as I know such support has never been posted on this or any other forum board - or anywhere else.

:rolleyes:

No matter what evidence you present there will always be the issue of interpretation. Just as you choose to narrowly interpret what people say, think or believe, the same can be said for what color the sky is. NO matter what objective evidence "proves the sky is blue", to someone who is color blind, the sky is green, that is what they see and that is therefore, what their interpretation is.. YOu think that everyone has religious based arguments when in fact, that is your limited perception. Yout own view points come from your own beliefs, which are not all based on fact. They are based on your information, your understanding of it, your personal experiences, your upbringing and how you interpret it to come to your own BELIEFS.

MOREOVER< not everyone has responded the same way to the subject of homosexuality. I responded to his other post with a very objective view about it and my own personal experience with it. I guess because there wasn't any dramatic verbal or insulting remarks, or it wasn't interesting enough to respond to.. HOWEVER, OTHER PEOPLE RESPONDED THAT WAY and as a result, the thread was closed. So don't say that you haven't seen them on any of the posts, when you may have chosen to over look them or simply not responded to them. OR it may have just been your own interpretation of what YOU UNDERSTAND or BELIEVE...

Same sex sex is genocide.

Let me see you object to protesters, who in all my experience will end up being attacked and abused for standing up for their beliefs, And to be honest the Gay Pride ( not really something to be proud of in my beleif) events are a show to people, so why should not the other side be there to show people that there are others who do hold to beleifs and are not afraid of being called poliitically incorrect. And the Gay have tried to hard to force their beliefs on America though court systems without any real legal status except liberal judges who rubber stamp their agenda.

So yes, I as many do stand up for our rights to tell America that yes we can stand up against sexual deviance as becoming acceptable in America and yes we can show them that there is still a will to fight this from being forced upon America.

I agree protester's should have the right to protest, even to the extent of protesting protesters BUT there should be guidelines to follow equally by both sides. To name two...
No bashing or unruliness by either side
Keep a distance determined by the law

Bad examples of protesters are
Rev. Phelps -bashing and unruliness
Peta and anti war organizations -threatening to cage people in organizations they protest when the law is you are to keep a distance.

I attended our city's pride parade this past weekend. Behind the parade marched a scraggly gang of about 5 protestors (in comparison with the 200,000 who attended the parade and celebration, it was quite a small group). I found myself extremely angry with these people, walking around with their signs and megaphones, proclaiming that we are all sinners, perverts, undeserving of civil rights or any protections, condemning us to hell, angrily yelling out scripture verses... I wanted to try to talk to them, try to have some sort of conversation- but they were unapproachable, and made every effort to completely humiliate those who did approach them (yelling into megaphones about what sinners they were and how they were doomed to hell).

While I understand that homosexuality may be against the religious beliefs of some individuals, I fail to understand a number of things. Firstly, since when is it okay to believe that the religious morals of a group can be imposed upon those who don't share those same beliefs? If you believe that being gay is immoral, don't be gay. If I believe being gay is okay, and I am gay, then let me be. It's not as though the issue the issue at hand is something like MURDER- where if you think it's wrong, you don't murder, but I can because I don't see a problem with it. Gay people aren't hurting anyone. The protestors, I'm sure, would argue that we are. But I fail to see how working hard, contributing to my community, volunteering, going to school... doing EVERYTHING I would be doing whether I was straight or gay... how all of that is somehow soiled by who I go to sleep with at night. How all of a sudden, I'm a detriment to my society. Because I'm not producing children? In this already hiddeously overpopulated world... I don't think that's really an issue. What else could it be then? What makes me, and my partner, and my gay friends WORSE people than anyone else? Nothing. And if we're not hurting anyone, and all we want is to be regarded as people with rights equal to those that are afforded to anyone else, and then just to be left alone to live our lives... why is that something to go out and protest?

Secondly, what exactly do these people intend to accomplish by protesting on Pride weekend? Surely they can't believe that carrying signs and yelling at people is a sure-fire method to convert them, can they? Especially during a time when we're out celebrating who we are, proud of who we are, after existing in a society that has forced shame upon us for years and years... people who have lost their jobs, their families, their friends just be able to be who they are... people who have had to hide who they were out of fear of harassment, condemnation, abandonment... and now subjecting them to this kind of public ridicule for not adhering to religious morals that are not their own? It seems so petty, so strange, so unproductive. Their presence really came off as more of a self-gratifying one rather than any genuine 'mission' to save our 'lost souls'. They're just up on their self-righteous pedestals all day, degrading people who don't fit into their belief system. They can't imagine that they were really going to accomplish anything, can they? If their true intentions were to reach out to people, to change them, to convert them, to 'help' them, why take on such an aggressive approach? Why carry signs that put down and degrade the people they're trying to reach? Why humiliate people publically with a megaphone, with nasty signs, with ignorant misuse of scripture? It just really boggles my mind.

Aren't Christians supposed to walk in the footsteps of their Christ? Would Jesus publically berate someone who he felt needed guidance/help/salvation? And honestly, in a world as crazy and screwed up and hate-filled as we live in today, how can you condemn someone for loving someone else? It just seems so illogical. As a former Christian, it really just blows my mind the way that some people behave.

I would really love to get some feedback/thoughts on this and have a discussion about it. Any takers?
Unfoirtunately cristians don't understand the words of the bible I do believe the bible says judge unto others as you would have them judge unto you... I have always believed we should live our lives for us not for anyone else because god is who shall judge us in the end...
I can honestly say I know what your talking about I've been there not only for being with the women I love most in the world but also because I date men of different races when I do date them and my family thinks that god is testing them with my behavior... dude I say be with who you want to love is hard enough to find with out there being resctrictions on what gender or race the person you love has to be man live for you and your beliefs and forget anybody who thinks its wrong

How do all you christian know that being gay isn't allow now? Like how you all can eat pork. As far as I know the only place where it mentions gay being a sin was in Leviticas which almost none of the rules of Leviticas are followed now. Why do you get to pick?

From Romans 1 New Testament, BUT you are right in the sense that many Christians do pick. The Bible also says adultery and fornication, gluttony and a whole lot of other things are sin as well and then you have overfed, overweight adulterers pointing others sins out.

...And the Gay have tried to hard to force thier beliefs on America though court systems without any real legal status except liberal judges who rubber stamp thier agenda.


The only 'agenda' gays want is to be aforded the same rights given to every other minority group. It's not a matter of so-called 'liberal' judges, but ones that recognize the law and Constitutional rights.


.

I may make people upset by saying this, but I am going to say it anyway. Call me narrow minded, whatever... I try to see all sides and I am certainly not trying to offend or hurt feelings, but... Why do you have to have a GAY PRIDE PARADE? I don't get a HETEROSEXUAL PRIDE PARADE. Why are you making a big to-do and shoving it in everyone's face? If you want to live your life in peace then do so. You can certainly be proud of who you are and what you're doing without the big "show". You want to be looked upon as being normal. Well normal isn't parading around the city telling everyone you're gay. Why do you feel the need to wave colorful flags and talk about your sexual orientation? Why can't I be proud of being straight? Or white? Or brown eyed? Because it makes me a racist. I can't be proud of being straight because that's discriminating. I in no way condone the behavior of the people with megaphones screaming you're going to hell. I am a christian and I may not care for what you do but I am not going to be standing in your place in front of God on judgement day, you are. It's not for me to say you're going to hell because we don't know that. What happens in the end is between you and God. Nor do I condone Gay Pride Parades. I don't see the point in it. When you do those things it's like you're screaming for attention. Good and Bad. It's like when a dude has 50 tattoos, dyes his hair flaming red, wears black eyeliner and paints his nails black. He'd get angry if people would look at him. Isn't he doing it for the attention knowing that people are going to give it to him good or bad? Anyway, aside from all of that, the way they went about it was all wrong. Yelling, carrying signs... they have obviously been misled. You are right. You don't help others that way. You reach out to them and tell them what you know. Talk to them about their lives and what they are going through. Invite them to church. You may not like what they do or think that it's OK to live the homosexual lifestyle but you never close the door on them. God works in mysterious ways.

erin7799 - I'm not gay but I try to understand their position. If your avatar is a current pic, you look too young to remember the civil rights marches of the 60s. That's what the gay pride marches are. They just want the same civil rights afforded everyone else, but since there are so many who deem them sinners or just disgusting, they have problems with everyday legal situations: denial of recognition of committed partnership (rights married folks get as w/ taxes and parental rights and end of life rights) not to mention the hate crimes.

Protest marches are what they really are.


-

During the past even just five years, this country has come a long way in acceptance of homosexuality. Since there were only five protesters at the parade, doesn't that help you feel a little smug, in a good way of course, that the tide is turning and that this society is accepting gays and lesbians? It took forever for women to get the vote and to be considered equal, and for blacks to be accepted as real people and also be equal--and we're still not quite there yet regarding those two groups.

Please be the Christian-type of person the Christians aren't being. The Bible calls that "heaping coals of fire on their heads."

I don't get a HETEROSEXUAL PRIDE PARADE.
If you like that idea, why not organize one? Feel free ! But does the fact that you are too lethargic to organize your parade means that others should not organize their parade? WHY ?


Why are you making a big to-do and shoving it in everyones face?
Why do you react so violent on that? You do not have to attend or participate, if you don't want! Where is your tolerance?


If you want to live your life in peace then do so.
They do precisely that. But it is you who protests against that...


... Well normal isn't parading around the city telling everyone you're gay.
On WHAT do you base that ?


Why do you feel the need to wave colorful flags and talk about your sexual orientation?
WHY NOT ? What is YOUR problem with them doing so?


Why can't I be proud of being straight?
Good question ! And why is that than?


I can't be proud of being straight because that's discriminating.
In that analogy Macy's parade is discriminating because it's based on Christian's Christmas. What a nonsense !


...but I am not going to be standing in your place in front of God on judgement day, you are.
Besides that nobody asks you to do so... you BELIEVE there will be a Judgment Day. But will there ?


Nor do I condone Gay Pride Parades. I don't see the point in it.
Nobody suggests or claims that YOU see any point in it. But some people do, as otherwise they would not organize these parades. Who do you think you are to deny them that?


God works in mysterious ways.
And he/she/it does not seem to involve you in it, I note...

Note : I am hetero AND tolerant!!

:rolleyes:

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Great points, Creden!

People can go back and forth about this for the rest of their lives and the subject will never be settled because one is always going to think the other is wrong. No matter how I feel or what I believe nothing that I DO classifies me as being intolerant. I have to tolerate it everyday. I don't hate people who are gay. I just don't agree with the lifestyle choice. Is that OK? Why does that make me intolerant? What makes you right about wanting to have an entire parade/weekend/week dedicated to the fact that you choose to sleep with a member of the same sex? Ever since having my kids I have such a hard time knowing that my 8 yr old has lost his innocence. Why in school at 7 were they teaching him about homosexuality? I didn't want him to learn about sex at all at that age! They certainly never asked me if it was OK. And why when a bunch of kids got into trouble at school for calling someone "gay" did I have this huge discussion with him about how that was wrong and why it was wrong, if I am so "intolerant"? I would've just let it go if I didn't care. You feel one way and you will always be right. Because I believe in God and in the Bible I will always be wrong. Even though I have gay friends and people in my family who are gay I love them. If my son would come to me and tell me he's gay I would have a hard time with it but I'd never stop loving him or stop being there for him. The arguing about who is wrong and right is a neverending battle.

No matter how I feel or what I believe nothing that I DO classifies me as being intolerant.
If you would concentrate on what YOU yourself can do better, and leave your opinion on what others are and do to them, I doubt if your current classification will stand the ravages of time.

You suggest there is nothing you can do to change people's views of you.
In reality it is only up to you : your actions make others form an opinion of you.
And presently neither your actions nor people's opinion of you is one of great tolerance...

:rolleyes:

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This is the first time EVER that I have opened up about how I feel about it. What is it that I DO that makes me intolerant? That's my question. I DO nothing. I let people do what they do and be who they are. We aren't all the same. I know this. I do not stand in their way. You're saying it's because of how I feel that I am intolerant. They don't want us to ignore it if they make it such a public display. Nothing at all that I DO would make anyone look at me and say "wow... she breeds intolerance". Nothing. I just stand by and let everyone do what they do and never say a word. I don't join in with people rioting. I don't make faces, yell slurs or any of that. It's funny because no matter how I feel about it I can voice my opinion on how I feel about it but I would never treat anyone differently because of who they choose to sleep with. "DO UNTO OTHERS..." I am not going to treat them any differently than I expect to be treated. How I treat you when we're standing in line at the grocery store has nothing to do with who you sleep with. It has everything to do with how you treat me. So to say that I am not tolerant is off. I am tolerant. I lived in Miami. I have lived in a gay community. That teaches you tolerance. I love people but I don't always care for what they do. I remember being so upset because many times it was like they were frowning upon the fact that I wasn't gay. If you were hetero you were abnormal. But I love people for who they are as people. I have no problem with Craig and Craig if they're sleeping together as long they respect me I respect them. I don't shove my tongue down my boyfriends throat in public and I don't expect Craig and Craig to swap spit in front of me either. There's a time and place for things. There's a difference between accepting something and tolerating it.

margog the issue is that you will not open your mind to some truth, you want it your way because you want your way period, And no homosexuality can not be interpreted many ways it is plain that it is wrong, the trouble is that you don't want to admit that you can be wrong, and that unless your way is "right" everyone else has to change their way of thinking and in the end you want to force everyone to accept your belief. In fact you are more guilty of forcing than those you are talking about

Chuck... apparently you think these words of Jesus apply more to Margog than to you. Personally, I think it's the other way around.

1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Matthew 7:1-5

lifestyle choice
Most of the time it's not a choice. If it is, when did you choose to be heterosexual?

And it's not a "lifestyle." The rich and famous have lifestyles.

Everything we do is by choice. Every time I've been hit on by a woman and I turned her down I was making a choice. Just because we feel a certain way doesn't mean that we act on our feelings. The majority of the gay people that I know and/or have known in my life have all been straight before they "turned" gay. Now this it out of their mouths not my own. It is absolutely a lifestyle. Ask my gay friends. They'll be the first to tell you. We've had this conversation before. And if it's not a lifestyle would you say it's a "culture"?

Everything we do is by choice. Every time I've been hit on by a woman and I turned her down I was making a choice.
So you've chosen to be straight? You aren't hotwired to be straight? If you make a choice, that means you are at first undecided about at least two things, in this case gay or straight, but straight has won out (so far). Maybe next week you will choose to be gay.

When someone hits on you, you aren't choosing to be gay or not; you are avoiding a certain behavior.

The majority of the gay people that I know and/or have known in my life have all been straight before they "turned" gay.
Interesting friends you have. My gay friends always knew they were attracted to the same gender, but society said no to that, so for a long time they hid how they felt.


would you say it's a "culture"?
What is being a heterosexual? A culture?

Erin7799-
I appreciate your posts, and since you said you didn't mean offense by what you said, I will not take it in that way. I suppose it is hard for someone who is not gay to really understand the importance of things like a gay pride parade to the gay community.

You said that you don't have a 'straight pride parade'- but, from my perspective, every day is straight pride day- you can be with your boyfriend or husband and not have people look at you like you're disgusting- you're, most of the time, typically surrounded by people who are straight like you.

I don't have that kind of life.

If you walk down the street holding hands with your boyfriend, no one even turns their heads. I walk down the street holding hands with my girlfriend, and I'm a spectacle.

You were raised in a world where being straight was 'normal' and so was I. For you, that was no big deal, because you were straight. For me, it was a big deal, because I felt like I just never quite fit right. I couldn't really put it together at an early age- any feelings I had I dismissed, and tried to live 'normally'- but that wasn't 'normal' for me. I was a triangle trying to fit myself into a square hole- so I went through much of my life before I came out as a 'straight' girl- everyone is presumed 'straight' by default- and so since that's the label that we're given, that's the label we attempt to embrace before we realize that it's not who we are. Maybe that's what your gay friends mean- I know I have gay friends who say that they 'turned' gay jokingly- so you might want to clarify that.

Everyone has a different experience, of course. But the majority are probably not prone to saying or feeling that they just decided to be gay, or that they used to be totally straight and one day just changed their minds. Again, being straight, you may not understand that- but I assure you, that is 99% of the time the reality.

As far as your statement that you don't have a 'straight' pride parade, because if you did you'd be considered 'racist'--- that's because straights are not and never have been an oppressed group. When you spend your life trying to be someone you're not, and find people criticizing and abandoning you because of who you are, you really do look forward to the boost of confidence that you get from being around other people like you, and being proud of who you are, regardless of what other people think. It's like... like you've been caged in all your life, and every day you have to be cautious of who's around you, who 'knows' about you, what other people are thinking or saying behind your back--- and it's not just the petty stuff that everyone else deals with, because I know everyone has to deal with judgment to some degree on a daily basis. But it's a judgment not of what you wear, who you talk to, what your hair looks like, how many pounds you need to lose- it's a judgment of an unchangeable part of WHO YOU ARE, and it hurts on a level that can't really be explained to people who haven't experienced it.

And then you have this one day every year, in some places a whole week, where you can let your hair down, relax, and celebrate- be who you are and be proud of who you are, when you spent so much of your life trying to hide it and convince people that you're 'not-so-bad'- a day where you can feel confident that you're just as good as anybody else, and just as deserving of respect. Where you can hold hands with the person you love and share your life with without being singled out as 'one-of-them-gay-couples'- cause they're everywhere.

I'm at work and I'm sure my thoughts are scattered, and I'm not sure if I addressed everything you mentioned in your posts. But please let me know if that helps clarify a bit- I'd be happy to answer any other questions you might have.

Peace.

What is it that I DO that makes me intolerant?
See your own post #31 and my post #34. If that was not clear to you, nothing is...

:rolleyes:

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Margog85- I don't ever mean to offend or hurt anyone and my actions in my life certainly suggest just that because I feel so badly if I do. When your on a board like this it's hard to "talk" to people because you can't hear a tone of voice and things that are being typed can be misleading in how we're trying to get them to come across. I try to understand. Just because I don't think it's right doesn't necessarily mean that I am going to snub my nose at you or ridicule you in public or private. Sometimes it gets so frustrating when you deal with prejudice on any level. I've dealt with it quite a bit like I said for being white, straight and woman. I get frustrated when situations occur like when my brother who is a "genius" was passed over an internship in college because he was white. They flat out told him that they needed so many "non-white" students. And even though he was far more qualified he didn't get the position. But they've made it in this country that no one is equal. Everyone wants special treatment and those who work hard and do what they need to do in life get pooped on. You're right. We all go through things and no... I can't imagine walking down the street and being gawked at for holding my loved ones hand. Funny thing is I would never gawk and make faces because it's none of my business. That's where I feel as though my actions do not qualify me for being intolerant. Do what you do, just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean that I am going to be hateful towards you. Nothing that I show, say or do on the outside makes me intolerant of you being gay. Only one time ever and that was on here did I ever come forward and finally say... "Hey... Why is it this way?" Because I opened up about it doesn't make me intolerant. I guess when people do things like the parades and such it's a huge attention getting deal. And there's nothing peaceful about it. You know there's going to be some kind of backlash from it. It's just the way people are. Someone has to stir the pot. I was just wondering why do certain people get to celebrate and others would be looked at as being racist against others if they did so? Because no matter what anyone says about that how would you feel? What if someone did organize a hetero parade? You'd assume there was some malicious intent behind it. Or if someone had a white pride parade... and I'm not talking kkk or anything like that. Just a happy celebration of who we are. People wouldn't stand for that. What I was trying to say was that people have a tendency to segregate themselves. Gay, straight, black, white, hispanic. We do. How can everyone live together in peace? In my silly mind I guess I always thought that people should just be happy, no one should hurt anyone and that's just the way it should be. Like I said, I've never brought this up before because the LAST thing I want to do is hurt you or anyone else. I knew that this discussion would get some people bashing me or telling me that I was wrong but like I said before we could go in circles about this forever. Someone will always think the other is wrong. Religion, Politics and now homosexuality. Things that you just can't argue. It never ends. I was told that something I said was violent when if you would've heard how it was coming out in my head, there was nothing violent about it. That's just it. You assume that we shouldn't celebrate who we are because we're straight and that's "normal". A lot of times people in this country bend over backwards to make sure that they don't offend "minorities". Unless that is, if you're white or christian. I've seen on t.v. where mexicans and black people can make fun of white people and call them names because haha that's funny. Yet at the same time a white person could never, ever make fun for the sake of t.v. because it would be racist and someone at some point they would have to come out with a public apology because they offeded someone. I just don't understand why things are OK for some people and not others. That's all. But I liked getting a message directly from you because I thought it was you who I was talking to you anyway not realizing I was going to hear from everyone else. Like I said I had never done this before. I am just going to have to leave it as no... I'll never understand. And some of these people will never understand me and what it is that I am tryint to say or the questions that I've had. And that's fine. I was just thinking of this lady that I used to work with. She was amazing. She was a lesbian and I loved her! She could quote the bible like nobodies business. She was always there for me and she gave the best hugs! Just an example of someone I knew and I never looked down on her because she had a girlfriend. I loved her for her. I don't know. Just because I don't understand doesn't make me a bad person. Doesn't make me hateful, intolerant or discriminating. It's just that I don't get it.

margog85, I wanted to thank you. Perhaps you wrote your last post while distracted at work but it came out as clear as bell ringing. For the first time I may understand what it's like to be gay. I grew up the victim of political abuse. Your explanation of the ostracism of being "different," and having to hide who and what you are explained how I've always felt. Thank You for putting it into words.

erin7799, you have so much balance and compassion for other humans. Keep it up.

Erin7799-
You said that you don't have a 'straight pride parade'- but, from my perspective, every day is straight pride day- you can be with your boyfriend or husband and not have people look at you like you're disgusting- you're, most of the time, typically surrounded by people who are straight like you.

I don't have that kind of life.

If you walk down the street holding hands with your boyfriend, no one even turns their heads. I walk down the street holding hands with my girlfriend, and I'm a spectacle.

You were raised in a world where being straight was 'normal' and so was I. For you, that was no big deal, because you were straight. For me, it was a big deal, because I felt like I just never quite fit right. I couldn't really put it together at an early age- any feelings I had I dismissed, and tried to live 'normally'- but that wasn't 'normal' for me. I was a triangle trying to fit myself into a square hole- so I went through much of my life before I came out as a 'straight' girl- everyone is presumed 'straight' by default- and so since that's the label that we're given, that's the label we attempt to embrace before we realize that it's not who we are. Maybe that's what your gay friends mean- I know I have gay friends who say that they 'turned' gay jokingly- so you might want to clarify that.

Everyone has a different experience, of course. But the majority are probably not prone to saying or feeling that they just decided to be gay, or that they used to be totally straight and one day just changed their minds. Again, being straight, you may not understand that- but I assure you, that is 99% of the time the reality.

As far as your statement that you don't have a 'straight' pride parade, because if you did you'd be considered 'racist'--- that's because straights are not and never have been an oppressed group. When you spend your life trying to be someone you're not, and find people criticizing and abandoning you because of who you are, you really do look forward to the boost of confidence that you get from being around other people like you, and being proud of who you are, regardless of what other people think. It's like... like you've been caged in all your life, and every day you have to be cautious of who's around you, who 'knows' about you, what other people are thinking or saying behind your back--- and it's not just the petty stuff that everyone else deals with, because I know everyone has to deal with judgment to some degree on a daily basis. But it's a judgment not of what you wear, who you talk to, what your hair looks like, how many pounds you need to lose- it's a judgment of an unchangeable part of WHO YOU ARE, and it hurts on a level that can't really be explained to people who haven't experienced it.

And then you have this one day every year, in some places a whole week, where you can let your hair down, relax, and celebrate- be who you are and be proud of who you are, when you spent so much of your life trying to hide it and convince people that you're 'not-so-bad'- a day where you can feel confident that you're just as good as anybody else, and just as deserving of respect. Where you can hold hands with the person you love and share your life with without being singled out as 'one-of-them-gay-couples'- cause they're everywhere.

I'm at work and I'm sure my thoughts are scattered, and I'm not sure if I addressed everything you mentioned in your posts. But please let me know if that helps clarify a bit- I'd be happy to answer any other questions you might have.

Peace.

Margog:

Thank you for expressing how you feel, it helps me see your point of view. ;)

I grew up the victim of political abuse.Simone--
I'm interested in what this means, if you don't mind sharing. I grew up in a very insular fundamentalist Christian subculture that fostered a sense of being separate and different, and a longing to be persecuted for it, though in actuality we weren't. Ordinary people just thought we were kind of weird, which of course we were. I still remember the sense of relief I felt when it dawned on me that there's really no US and THEM, that we're all just people.

I think many people make choices in life. That is, to get married, go to college, have kids and raise a family. People also make a choice to give in to their feelings towards someone of the same sex, or not. THAT doesn't mean that the attraction is a choice, but how we respond to it is. I think many people struggle with wanting a "regular life" and to be like everyone else. Some people want a traditional family and maybe don't want to give in to their sexual desires. BUT the desire isn't a choice, it just is. Thus, you cannot judge what someone feels, even if you have an opinion on how they live that out.
Being gay isn't something anyone wants to be or chooses.. unless they are just wanting to shock and entice people.. MOST of the time it is a realization of an attraction and desire to be with someone of the same sex and not being sure how to frame that. It takes some people their whole lives of being married and having kids, and then realizing they are not being true to themselves and they must be free of the chains they feel are keeping them from the life they DESIRE..
Look, my mom was a nun, married to my dad for twelve years and THEN came out as a gay women. It was the 80's and it wasn't easy to deal with, admit or acknowledge at that time. I don't think anyone could have TURNED her gay, but maybe made her realize that SHE couldn't deny who she was anymore, despite her CAtholic conservative parents, or her angry and embarrassed teenage children. IT sometimes overtakes you and you must let it out and face the music.
IT Isn't a choice to be gay, but I think living out the gay lifestyle is choice and not an easy one. There is still prejudiced people and ways that they are treated unfairly. This is why people feel the need to speak out, be proud and shout it in the streets.

Yes it makes some uncomfortable. HOWEVER, there is not the same need to feel validated for heterosexuals as there is for those that are homosexual. Heterosexuality and patriarchy has dominated and controlled this society, as well as many others throughout history and anything veering from that is seen as inappropriate, unnecessary and to many, unethical and immoral. THAT IS how we have kept the nuclear family together, by supporting and protecting marriage through religion and patriarchal laws. THat is the truth whether you agree with it or like it isn't really the issue.
So, do I think Homosexuality is a choice? NO.. But living it out as your truth and your difference.. ABSOLUTELY IS.

I'm not going to argue with anyone about how they feel. Some subjects can't be touched. It's a never ending discussion. But that certainly doesn't mean I don't like homosexuals as people. I just don't agree with it. That's my opinion, you have yours and that's what makes us all so great. If we all agreed all the time life would be boring. More peaceful, certainly. But boring. Thank you all for your arguments, your insight and margog85... keep on keepin' on. You're a person that everyone could learn something from.
God Bless :)

I just don't agree with it.
It's nothing to agree or disagree with. No one is taking votes on it. It just is.

If heterosexuals "turned" to be homosexual, then they all can easily return to heterosexuality. Why don't they?

I attended our city's pride parade this past weekend. Behind the parade marched a scraggly gang of about 5 protestors (in comparison with the 200,000 who attended the parade and celebration, it was quite a small group). I found myself extremely angry with these people, walking around with their signs and megaphones, proclaiming that we are all sinners, perverts, undeserving of civil rights or any protections, condemning us to hell, angrily yelling out scripture verses... I wanted to try to talk to them, try to have some sort of conversation- but they were unapproachable, and made every effort to completely humiliate those who did approach them (yelling into megaphones about what sinners they were and how they were doomed to hell).

I've seen gay pride parades before and it is the gays who are offensively dressed (if they are dressed at all) and it is the gays who carry offensive signs with offensive literature.


While I understand that homosexuality may be against the religious beliefs of some individuals, I fail to understand a number of things. Firstly, since when is it okay to believe that the religious morals of a group can be imposed upon those who don't share those same beliefs?

The question can easily be asked of you. Why do you feel that gays may impose their beliefs on others?

If following a parade with megaphones and signs is imposition of beliefs, what is the parade itself?

Seems to me that you are simply angered by freedom of expression when the ideas being expressed are not those with which you agree.


If you believe that being gay is immoral, don't be gay...

The rest of your post can be ignored. It is simply a rant from someone who wants all people to agree with her views.

If you live in the USA, the Constitution gives you the right to express what you believe is right and what you believe is wrong.

If you believe that homosexuality is right, then you don't have to be a homosexual to believe so. Simply hold your belief.

As for me, I believe it is wrong. And I reserve the right to say so whenever I wish. It is my right guaranteed by the Constitution.


I would really love to get some feedback/thoughts on this and have a discussion about it. Any takers?

No you don't. The largest part of your message is simply a rant against those who don't believe what you believe. And we've had this discussion before anyway.

Sincerely,

De Maria

If heterosexuals "turned" to be homosexual, then they all can easily return to heterosexuality. Why don't they?
Why would they ?

:rolleyes:

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I can't seem to stop myself. If a woman and a woman were meant to be together, then why do they need a man to have a child? And vice versa?

De Maria : Thank You! You said what I was trying to say. People get offended when they think that a christian/heterosexual, etc... is trying to impose their beliefs onto them by not agreeing with what they're doing. Yet, it's OK to impose what they believe to be right onto us. And society is far more accepting of them by silencing us and allowing them to run the city for a day. Though they choose not to see it that way.

allowing them to run the city for a day.
Who runs the city for the other 364 days?

I can't seem to stop myself. If a woman and a woman were meant to be together, then why do they need a man to have a child? And vice versa?

De Maria : Thank You! You said what I was trying to say. People get offended when they think that a christian/heterosexual, etc...is trying to impose their beliefs onto them by not agreeing with what they're doing. Yet, it's ok to impose what they believe to be right onto us. And society is far more accepting of them by silencing us and allowing them to run the city for a day. Though they choose not to see it that way.
You do realize that women DON'T need men to have children anymore. Just their seed. And vice versa. There's artificial insimination, there's surrogates, and adoption.

I realize this. But the WOMAN still needs the MAN in order to do this. You know what I'm saying. The woman cannot ]on her own have a child. And vice versa. It's artificially done. Not naturally.

And everyone shares the city for the other 364.

I realize this. But the WOMAN still needs the MAN in order to do this. You know what I'm saying. The woman cannot ]on her own have a child. And vice versa. It's artificially done. Not naturally.

And everyone shares the city for the other 364.
No, she needs his seed. Not him. So, by this theory are you against c-section and/or epedoral during birth because it's artificial and not natural? That's not a good argument for someone's life.

Without HIM there is no SEED. So technically, there is a HIM out there somewhere that SHE NEEDS. Because she needs something from HIM in order to make it happen.

Were you serious about the whole c-section and epidural comment? Now you're just getting silly. Those are two totally different "un-naturals". How you need a man to conceive and having an epidural?

Yes, but she does not need him as a person in her life. Do you understand what I'm trying to say to you? Men don't need women (in their life or relationship) in order to have children. And same for women. And please, spare me the lecture about gay parents raising gay children, because I'm sure you believe that as well.

Were you serious about the whole c-section and epidural comment? Now you're just getting silly. Those are two totally different "un-naturals". How you need a man to concieve and having an epidural?You were the one arguing what's natural and unnatural. If you diagree with anything "unnatural" then you can't be prejudice. It's all or nothing.

Was I lecturing you about gay parenting? Nope. Never brought it up. So today was your lucky day! I was a single mother for a long time. I had no men in my life. I know you don't need a man to parent. Conception. That's what I'm talking about. Nor did I say that homosexuals aren't good parents. Just because I don't believe in who they choose to sleep with doesn't mean I think they're bad parents. Or people in general. I just have a hard time thinking that it's OK.

This is why I said I was done with this. Because I feel the way that I do, you're going to argue that I'm wrong. Me and everyone else who believes that homosexuality is wrong. I kept trying to unsubscribe to this stupid post and it keeps emailing it to me and the temptation is too much! But why is it that it's not OK for me to feel that way? Why is it OK for you to feel the way that you do? If I'm not right then are you? And what makes you right then and not me?

Fortunately they don't need you approving of who they choose to sleep with, as you don't need their approval of who you choose to sleep with. Just because you don't think its OK, doesn't mean that it's wrong. I don't think having a child outside of marriage is OK, but does that mean that it's wrong? No. I was conceived outside marriage.

This is why I said I was done with this. Because I feel the way that I do, you're going to argue that I'm wrong. Me and everyone else who believes that homosexuality is wrong. I kept trying to unsubscribe to this stupid post and it keeps emailing it to me and the temptation is too much! But why is it that it's not ok for me to feel that way? Why is it ok for you to feel the way that you do? If I'm not right then are you? And what makes you right then and not me?

There is no right and wrong on opinions, if you can't unsubscribe, email curlyben and ask him for help.

I've seen gay pride parades before and it is the gays who are offensively dressed (if they are dressed at all) and it is the gays who carry offensive signs with offensive literature.

Offensive signs? Like 'marriage now?' and 'my family deserves equal rights'? And what offensive literature? Such as.. And as I've said before, it's a parade, a celebration... look at Mardi Gras... Fat Tuesday... a celebration before the holy season of Lent- is that something completely pure? I think not.


The question can easily be asked of you. Why do you feel that gays may impose their beliefs on others?

If following a parade with megaphones and signs is imposition of beliefs, what is the parade itself?

Seems to me that you are simply angered by freedom of expression when the ideas being expressed are not those with which you agree.

No one is imposing their beliefs by having a parade. The parade, as I've said before if you read the entire thread before posting, is a celebration of who we are and a commemoration of the Stone Wall riots of the 60's.




You cannot ignore what you disagree with. It is not a rant, I was expressing how I felt, looking for feedback from others and a discussion, and that is what has been going on here. Your confrontational, condescending, and argumentative tone are not welcome on this thread. I've been very open and honest about how I feel here- and other people have recognized that and been appreciative of the open dialogue. Please do not come here and try to stir something up.

[QUOTE=De Maria]If you live in the USA, the Constitution gives you the right to express what you believe is right and what you believe is wrong.

If you believe that homosexuality is right, then you don't have to be a homosexual to believe so. Simply hold your belief.

As for me, I believe it is wrong. And I reserve the right to say so whenever I wish. It is my right guaranteed by the Constitution.

You can express it, I'm not saying that you can't. Again, if you read what I wrote, I didn't say they didn't have the right to do so- but that it seemed like more of a self-righteous effort than one truly concerned with 'saving' anyone.

I don't understand what you mean by 'if you believe that homosexuality is right, then you don't have to be a homosexual to believe so'- no one ever said anyone had to be gay- what are you talking about here?

You can say what you like when you wish, no one said you should be deprived of the ability to do so. But realize that it hurts people who do not deserve to be hurt, that it is inappropriate in certain situations, and that although you may have the 'right' to say what you wish, it doesn't mean you should.


No you don't. The largest part of your message is simply a rant against those who don't believe what you believe. And we've had this discussion before anyway.
Again, not just a rant, and I am offended that you would reduce my emotions and my attempt to share what I'm thinking/feeling about something that is important to me to a 'rant' that doesn't deserve anyone to pay anymind. That cannot be the 'christian' way, can it?

De Maria, your negativity is not welcome here- please change your tone, or start your own thread. This IS a discussion- again, if you read the entire post before interjecting your 2 cents, you'd see that.

I can't seem to stop myself. If a woman and a woman were meant to be together, then why do they need a man to have a child? And vice versa?

...People get offended when they think that a christian/heterosexual, etc...is trying to impose their beliefs onto them by not agreeing with what they're doing. Yet, it's ok to impose what they believe to be right onto us. And society is far more accepting of them by silencing us and allowing them to run the city for a day. Though they choose not to see it that way.

..And everyone shares the city for the other 364..

Actually they're quickly coming to the point where they don't need sperm but just joining eggs. Only drawback (?) is that all the ofspring would be female.

But this is besides the point. Homosexuals are a legitimate minority. The same app 10% rate occurs in all 'races' and even in the animal world. I submit that it is, therefore, 'natural,' just different. If it was so against God's plan, why would he make homosexual animals since they don't have a sense of so-called morality?

So the point is that they aren't trying to 'impose' but merely be recognized as a minority denied the same civil rights as most others. They're just more flamboyant about it than other groups seeking the same thing.

-

Ok. Live Well, All! :)

margog the issue is that you will not open your mind to some truth, you want it your way because you want your way period, And no homosexuality can not be interpreted many ways it is plain that it is wrong, the trouble is that you don't want to admit that you can be wrong, and that unless your way is "right" everyone else has to change thier way of thinking and in the end you want to force everyone to accept your beleif. In fact you are more guilty of forcing than those you are talking about
And in the end, moral values are and should be a consistant value. Those that see peverted sexual desires are moral are just wrong in every sense but if they wish to do thier own desires, it should not be forced on others to have to view, accept and be given special levels.

I really think you should take your own advice for your religious views. Why do you assume that when two people of the same sex are together that it's all for perverted sex? Why is it wrong for two people who truly love each other to be together? What makes you think that because YOU believe something that you have the right to influence other people's lives? Why waste your time on something that's NEVER going to change? People can't change WHO they are and what they feel!

Just look at the evidence! I'm seen so much research that disproves the fact that being gay is a choice. Even in the studies of hardcore catholics that force people into being straight have loop-holes.

Believe what you want to believe, live the way you want to live, but NEVER think that you can decide for others.

I really think you should take your own advice for your religious views.
Excellent response ! :)


Believe what you want to believe, live the way you want to live, but NEVER think that you can decide for others.
Hear , hear , hear!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

·

One’s sexual life is a private matter, whether you chose to be gay or not. So, why do gays like to advertise it? Why do many gay women try to look, dress, walk and act like men?

However, it is my belief :rolleyes:that gay people are demon possessed, just my opinion, based on my belief in the Holy Bible. And, it is in the New Testament:
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.




Believe what you want to believe, live the way you want to live, but don't try to make others approve of it by acting so perverted. That's not the way to win friends and influence people. $0.2

Hear hear hear:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ah yes, "the devil made them do it" - that certainly absolves one from personal responsibity.

No, they were tempted and fell. No excuse. They could repent and be saved. Repent means to stop what you are doing and go the other way. The devil can't make anyone do anything unless they are willing to follow him.

Well, if that's the case then fine, but isn't lusting after someone just as much a sin? SO, if a homosexual repents and says "I'm not going to be gay anymore", he's okay? He's saved? But he'll be thinking it, all the time. It's who he is. He didn't choose to be this way, he was born this way. He will be attracted to, have thoughts of men, and fantasies. So, really, what's the point of apologizing to God for being born the way he was?

No, they were tempted and fell. No excuse. They could repent and be saved. Repent means to stop what you are doing and go the other way. The devil can't make anyone do anything unless they are willing to follow him.But you said the were "demon possesed", that doesn't sound like someone doing something willfully.

So you would agree that straight people also advertise being straight by dressing the way they do.

Gay people dress the way they do because that's how they WANT to dress, not to advertise themselves.

So if people advertise their sexuality by the way they dress, and you believe they should hide, then why doesn't every straight person in the world dress like a gay person to hide their preferences. Why doesn't every priest in the world goth it up and throw on some anarchy symbols!

This is so ridiculous! UGH!. I need some bubble wrap

So you would agree that straight people also advertise being straight by dressing the way they do.

Gay people dress the way they do because that's how they WANT to dress, not to advertise themselves.

So if people advertise their sexuality by the way they dress, and you believe they should hide, then why doesn't every straight person in the world dress like a gay person to hide their preferences. Why doesn't every priest in the world goth it up and throw on some anarchy symbols!

This is so ridiculous! UGH!...I need some bubble wrap

I think we should all just run around naked!

I think we should all just run around naked!

Lol great idea!

I agree...

So you would agree that straight people also advertise being straight by dressing the way they do.

Gay people dress the way they do because that's how they WANT to dress, not to advertise themselves.

So if people advertise their sexuality by the way they dress, and you believe they should hide, then why doesn't every straight person in the world dress like a gay person to hide their preferences. Why doesn't every priest in the world goth it up and throw on some anarchy symbols!

This is so ridiculous! UGH!...I need some bubble wrap

What?:confused::( You are so right, that was ridiculous!

I have no idea what you think you are trying to say.

If you mean my question of why some gay women like to look, act, talk, walk like men... I was sincerely curious. I mean if a gay woman wants another woman, then why would she want one that is so much like a man? That was my question.


By the way, and I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but I have this joke... no, you couldn't handle it and they would close the board again. But it is soooooooooooooooooo funny. I'll tell you all but the punch line, there a new pill for gay women.. it's called _______________. ROFLMAO If anyone wants to know the answer ask me via email.

Sorry, Peace

But you said the were "demon possesed", that doesn't sound like someone doing something willfully.

Darling,

No one can be demon possessed unless they allow it, otherwise we would all be demon possessed. Understand?

Peace

"One’s sexual life is a private matter, whether you chose to be gay or not. So, why do gays like to advertise it?"

This is what I was responding to. Why do priests wear funny clothes to advertise that they're priests?

I'm simply saying that everyone advertises who they are in one way or another and targeting one group because you believe they are "possessed" is hypocritical.

One’s sexual life is a private matter, whether you chose to be gay or not. So, why do gays like to advertise it? Why do many gay women try to look, dress, walk and act like men?

Yes, it is a private matter to an extent- but when we are discriminated against in the public arena (jobs, health coverage, ability to marry, etc.) then it becomes a more public matter.

Why do we like to advertise it? That's just a silly question- why do you want us to hide it? You 'advertise' that you're straight, I'm sure. Do you have a husband/boyfriend? If you do, or if you did, would you hold his hand in public? Is that 'advertising'? Or are you just being who you are?

And if you were looked down upon for doing so all year long, wouldn't you just want to cut loose on the one day that was set aside for you (Pride) to be who you are without judgment from others?

And why do gay women try to look,d ress, walk and act like men? They don't. They may not all fit into the traditional gender stereotypes- everyone is a mix of feminine and masculine- maybe they're just not trying so hard to suppress their masculinity... and in either case, that is a generalization. Those are the lesbians you are AWARE of (because of how they appear, of course)- there are PLENTY who look just like you... and you wouldn't even know unless you knew them personally.


However, it is my belief :rolleyes:that gay people are demon possessed, just my opinion, based on my belief in the Holy Bible. And, it is in the New Testament:
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

So, now I'm demon possessed, eh? Read through my posts, get a general idea of who I am, see how I conduct myself on this board, in dicussions I have with people... is that how a 'demon-posessed' person typically behaves?

And really, do you think that long list of characteristics applies to gay people... for real? Do you know anyone who is gay? Have you ever been close with someone who is gay? From your post, I would presume not-



Believe what you want to believe, live the way you want to live, but don't try to make others approve of it by acting so perverted. That's not the way to win friends and influence people. $0.2

hear hear hear:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:




Not trying to make others 'approve'- just trying to be who we are, and enjoying some time where we can freely do so. And being 'perverted'? By your peception, maybe. But not by mine. I'm being who I am, and am not ashamed.

Really, tsila, read through my posts again- can you honestly tell me that you have no understanding of anything I've written?

I have worked with many homosexual people, and I have found most to be pleasant people to work with, I have been friends with some, as in having lunch breaks together, but that does not mean I have to approve of their lifestyle. I actually prefer to work with men who are gay then the women. The women creep me out. That's how they make me feel.




One girl, A, a college student, rather pretty until you saw her up close, started dating another not so attractive girl B that I worked with A saw B only a few times and then broke off with her. It broke B's heart, she was so upset. But A was only using her, I overheard her on the phone with C and I know she was just using her. That hurt me. Because B was so hurt, she was a nice person.



But I still do not approve of the lifestyle and if you are having so much trouble getting jobs, etc, then why do you display your sex lives as part of who you are? Keep your private life private and get a job.

One girl, a college student, rather pretty until ... I know she was just using her ....
So is THAT the essence of what you have against homosexuality ? Really ?
Would you have approved that mis-use if one had been a boy, and the other a girl ?
If not : do you not see what an empty argument you provided here?
If so : that shows you are just a sexist...

:D

·

"One’s sexual life is a private matter, whether you chose to be gay or not. So, why do gays like to advertise it?"

This is what I was responding to. Why do priests wear funny clothes to advertise that they're priests?

I'm simply saying that everyone advertises who they are in one way or another and targeting one group because you believe they are "possessed" is hypocritical.


How is that hypocritical? I do not like the way priests dress either. I do not like the way teenagers dress these days. I do not like the way, extremely huge people wear tong bathing suits to the beach.:eek:

But they complain that they can't get a job because of their sex lives, so why bring their sex lives into the interview room?

I did not mean to imply that all gay people were possessed, those I saw pictures of in the parade... I do honestly believe they were. There are people who are not gay that are possessed. Do I have to qualify every little tad bit of every post to keep the nit pickers happy?:rolleyes:

So is THAT the essence of what you have against homosexuality ? Really ?
Would you have approved that mis-use if one had been a boy, and the other a girl ?
If not : do you not see what an empty argument you provided here?
If so : that shows you are just a sexist ...

:D

·

Oh Cred, I thought you were going to be with your grandchildren. Maybe they can teach you how to read. And stop calling me names! I wasn't arguing here Cred, I was 'telling a story', I was answering a question read the whole thing before you make yourself look so silly.

Go play with your grandchildren and be happy for a while.

Oh Cred, I thought you were going to be with your grandchildren. Maybe they can teach you how to read. And stop calling me names! I wasn't arguing here Cred, I was 'telling a story', I was answering a question read the whole thing before you make yourself look so silly. Go play with your grandchildren and be happy for a while.
And that is the best you can do ?
So that shows you are just a sexist...

:rolleyes:

·

And that is the best you can do ?
So that shows you are just a sexist ...

:rolleyes:

· Is that the best you can do? :(

I was asked or it was said that I did not know any gay people, and I was responding to that... which you obviously did not read so that you did not understand the response. Your misunderstanding is what has brought us here.

I was explaining that I do indeed know a lot of gay people, and the ones I know are like any other people, they can be friends, they can be cruel and they can get their hearts broken. And I can have compassion on the ones who are used and mistreated by another, whatever the sex. It just happened that this couple were female. I also am female, Cred. Duh!

Has nothing at all to do with anything. Get over it, already.

Is this really the topic here Cred? Is Tsila a sexist? I don't think so. Get back on topic please.

Well Tsila, I completely understand why anyone, man or woman, wouldn't enjoy working with you. :D Nothing would get done!

Well Tsila, I completely understand why anyone, man or woman, wouldn't enjoy working with you. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../images/smilies/biggrin.gif Nothing would get done!

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this, it's almost 4 A.M. can't sleep again because of the pain, may be that's what is clouding my brain.

Would you mind explaining, please.

Much later... did you mean you could understand why anyone would not enjoy working with me? From where did you get this information that people did not enjoy working with me? On what basis do you state as fact that 'nothing would get done'?

Or did you mean to say that you could completely understand why anyone would enjoy working with me? If so, why and why would nothing get done?

Since you put the https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../images/smilies/biggrin.gif I am confused. :confused:

Please explain.:)


Thanks

Keep your private life private and get a job.

Tsila-
When I get weird looks from people at work because I have a picture of myself and my partner on my desk (even though they have pictures of THEIR families on their desks)- or when I have to use gender-neutral terms to talk about my life, so as not to let on that I'm in a relationship with a woman- when I have to watch what I do in public (simple things, like holding hands with the person I love) so that in case I run into anyone from work, they don't catch on... that's what I'm talking about.

It's not that I 'dress like a man' and 'advertise' it- but the normal things that anyone in a relationship would do, I have to put extra thought into.

And I've had situations where my sexual orientation made my employers so uncomfortable, that they were ready to fire me (at which point, I quit-) But I did nothing to 'advertise' it- I lived my life the way any straight person would live theirs- except my significant other was a woman. And that was too much for some people to handle, and I in turn had to suffer the consequences of their bias-

Unfair. I'm not asking just looking for acceptance from people and an 'ok' to do as I please in my private life- I already do that-

But you know as well as I do that private life and work life and public life... they're not all completely independent of one another. It's not as easy and clear cut as you seem to believe it to be.

Having never walked a mile in your shoes, I truly cannot understand what you have to deal with, on the other hand, I do still believe that is it a chosen lifestyle so that is the only way I can look at it. And since so many people believe the way I do, please try to understand our outlook on it. Just to see where we are coming from….

We, who believe that your lifestyle is a chosen one, we do not believe you were born that way, and we believe it is against God, have this point of view.

You chose a lifestyle that you knew was not accepted, you knew there would be consequences such as you have described, but you chose it anyway, and then you complain because those consequences did occur. My point of view…. You walking in my shoes is…what right do you have to complain and try to 'make us accept' a lifestyle that you chose to live?

I do not like it that the white man came over here to our land and slaughter most of my people, and put the rest on reservations. They tried to 'make us give up everything we had ever believed in and our language, our customs and when my people did conform to their way of life… they still took them from their homes by force and put them in pins in the heat of summer and many died…. Trail of tears.” And they still consider us dogs.

As a child, I was told not to tell anyone that I was Cherokee. Mommy warned me to 'hide' that fact. I was born this way…and still I have been persecuted for it.

We have our Pow Wows, and the white man comes to watch us dance, and entertain them. But there was a time not that long ago, when some Indians were dancing, the white man shot them, old men and women died because they were Indian and dancing.

Now they let us entertain them with dancing. I guess time changes things; you just have to wait for it and hope you live to see it.

Now we have the casinos…sweet revenge, legal scalping. Yeah!

I will never accept your lifestyle as 'normal', but I will never treat you the way most people do. As I explained, (to which Cred called me sexist against women, and I am a woman)…I know and like many gay people. I do not think they are any different from other people. I mean like the white people think of Indians. Gay people, like all people, have feelings, temptations, some are nice, some are cruel, some are disgusting some are…. Get the picture?

All people are the same, only they look different, believe different and some are too tired of trying to conform to others way of life and beliefs. I will stay with mine. I will not give in; I will fight to the death for the right to believe the way I believe.

As so many young men and women have died to give me that right, I refuse to dishonor them.

Sorry this is so long, but I am tired of all of this. People on here attack me for my belief; they make hateful comments to me. You are not the only one who is persecuted for their chosen lifestyle, my faith. Therefore, I guess in a way, I do walk in your shoes on some level.

I hope you can understand my point.

Wado luli
way-t-te, ga-lv-quo-do-di, tsi-sa.

All people are the same, only they look different, believe different and some are too tired of trying to conform to others way of life and beliefs.

Well, that's one thing we can agree upon! I know everyone's beliefs are important to them- and they should do their best to live by their own beliefs ( I know I do ) - and, of course, everyone is entitled to believe as they wish- but they shouldn't belittle others for not adhering to beliefs that are not their own, and they shouldn't try to force their beliefs upon others- let people do as they please, and if it doesn't please you to do it, don't- but don't try to make others stop, esp. when it's not hurting anyone else.

The point of the parade is not to make everyone gay- it's to make everyone aware that we exist and are equal with everyone else- and it's to celebrate who we are in the face of adversity and discrimination-

We don't go out trying to make anyone else gay- but they come there trying to make us straight. Do you see the difference?

I hope you didn't see my posts as an 'attack'- just trying to clarify some things, and understand better where you're coming from, and show where I'm coming from as well. We disagree on this, for sure, since I don't believe it was a choice- and honestly, even if it were a choice, it's the choice that fulfills me and makes me happy-

It doesn't necessarily mean I should be forced to deal with the consequences

Kind of like the comparison you made about christianity- your CHOOSE to be christian because you believe it is the RIGHT way for you to be- it's what fulfills you, and the personal rewards you reep living your life as a christian by choice make it worth the crap you may sometimes have to deal with from others.

But you shouldn't have to put up with that crap silently- just like I shouldn't have to put up with crap from other people silently.

And sometimes, I just need to get together with other people like me, and be proud of who I am- it helps deal with all the times when it has to remain so hidden.

Okay, I have read all the previous posts and I'm not going to "jump" in to the argument, I just want to say a few things;

1. If you believe that God created everything (which I do) then he created homosexuals too.

2. Why would you "choose" to be gay if it is a choice? The world is a cruel place and there is so much hatred for people, especially gay's, so really, why would you choose it? It's not a choice, gay people are born gay, not raised gay, not provoked to be gay, not tricked to be gay, not possessed, they just are gay!

3. In Canada Gay people can get married. :)

4. I've never been to a gay pride parade, but I would go to support my gay friends.

Having said that, most of the people who posted about their disgust at homosexuality think that this is a lifestyle, or a choice, it isn't. I myself am not gay, nor am I bi, I'm heterosexual, I've know that from the beginning. I have allot of gay friends, and we talk openly with each other about their lives, because they are good friends I have asked them allot of questions about when they realized they where gay. Most of my friends say this "I didn't realize that I was gay, I always knew, I just realized that I couldn't keep pretending to be straight".

Live and let live, try and understand, you might be surprised.

And that's all I have to say.

Peace. :)

No, Margog, I did not feel you were attacking me. You are one of the nicest people on this board. You only wanted to understand and you were decent enough to ask questions, and even nice enough to answer questions without any snide remarks. Thank you.

We could most likely be friends. I will accept what you believe, you accept what I believe and we will not argue about who is right or wrong or put down each other for being different.

What I said about complaining, perhaps that was not the right word, I meant you knew there would be consequences, and you know some people will never accept your lifestyle, but they do not have the right to harass you. They are not acting as Christians should. But you can't judge us all by a few.


We don't go out trying to make anyone else gay- but they come there trying to make us straight. Do you see the difference?

Of course I do. Imagine if can me as a little girl, proud of who I am, sitting in all white school, 'learning' about white man's history. When I made a feeble attempt to defend the Indians, who though their eyes were savages, I was reprimanded by my teacher.

All the white men of history were heroes; the Indians were vermin to be eliminated. They taught of the Indian attacks, how they massacred the white settlers... but not of how the white men murdered the Indian women and children and made tobacco pouches of certain parts of the women. Or of the peace treaties, that they never intended to keep.

I made very low marks in history, I guess that is why I hate it so much... it is not factual.

I knew there was no point in trying to defend my people, so I had to sit there and 'learn' their 'truths'. Even the women of history got no credit for their contribution.

Some things we just have to endure until times change.

Like I said, now they no longer shoot us for dancing they come to be entertained, perhaps someday, they will line the streets to watch your parades instead of following you with signs.

And sometimes, I just need to get together with other people like me, and be proud of who I am

My point: the pictures I saw on the news of the gay parade here in Atlanta, were not just people celebrating; they were horrible pictures. But as we have agreed already, even people who believe the same way do not always act the same way. Those pictures were not of people celebrating, and being proud, they were, and I do not use this term lightly, “in your face,” I am sure not everyone there was acting that way, but some were.

They were almost completely naked and imitating the sex act, that is not what the parade, as you described it, was supposed to be, was it? To me, no one, gay or straight should act that way, to me, that is perverted, they looked and acted demon possessed.

That is what is disgusting to me, if it had been anyone else, it would have been equally disgusting. Do you understand? That was inappropriate behavior for anyone. And if you want to show people you are just like everyone else, this was not a good way of doing so. Can you agree with that? And I do not judge all by those few. That is the only parade I have seen pictures of; so that is all I have to go by in my discussion.

It doesn't necessarily mean I should be forced to deal with the consequences


I did not say you should have to be forced to deal with the consequences. I said you knew what the consequences would be……….. big difference. I knew what the consequences would be to tell I was Cherokee, so I did not tell. I did not want to deal with the consequences. I know that is a weak comparison, but it is the best I can do for the moment. I think you will get my point, while others may shoot ridicule at me. So be it.

I know what the consequences are of telling my faith in God and what I believe; you have seen some of the remarks I get. It's becoming rather boring, these people, who for lack of vocabulary cannot come up with anything better than that is your belief or that is what you believe, its not been proven, it's not a fact. Some even suggest that I have to start every sentence with this is what I believe…. while they can say anything as if it were a proven fact. Double standard and they cannot even see that.

While I have met some nice people on here, it is like your parade, we cannot even have a polite discussion without 'those people', coming on here and harassing us. So, you see, I do understand more than you realize.

Wado

I knew what the consequences would be to tell I was Cherokee, so I did not tell. I did not want to deal with the consequences.Actually it does not matter one iota that you are Cherokee,. or asian, or jewish, or black, or a labourer, or a paraplegic. What consequences did you expect?

Actually it does not matter one iota that you are Cherokee, ... or asian, or jewish, or black, or a labourer, or a paraplegic. What consequences did you expect?

This one

this oneI'm confused. Can you explain?

When you are a Cherokee in a mostly white community, in the 50's and 60's you do not tell. There were others and we knew who each other were. We could talk among ourselves. But if the white people knew, they would come around us, with two fingers at the back of their heads to represent feathers, and making noises while 'patting' their mouths to imitate 'our songs', and imitate our dances. They made fun of us. It was an insult to our culture.

I did not mean that I would face consequences on this board, I meant as a young girl, 5 years old, in school. My 'tan' lasted through the winter, but my eyes are green and my hair was blond, but quickly turned to what is considered a dark brown. I could pass as white. That is what we had to do, pass as white, or be tormented by other children.

As I grew older, I proudly announced that I am Cherokee. I accepted the consequences.

This was a small part of a very long message directed to Margog, and has no importance on its own. It was to give an example that I know, at least to some degree, how it feels to be harassed by others who do not like who you are i.e. those who followed the parade with signs and yelled insults at them.

Now, would you mind explaining what you meant? Because apparently, I misunderstood therefore my answer.

My reply was a "consequence". I was basically telling you that people are accepted here regardless of physical characteristics/race/etc. I think you owe me an apology.

Think as you please, I misunderstood your meaning. I do not feel I owe you an apology. Why do you think so?

You made it appear as if my response was an example of why you keep your heritage hidden (i.e. I'm a bad guy) when it was nothing of the sort.

We're getting off topic, let's try to stay on track okay? Thanks. :)

Sure, if she stops the disparaging comments. I also stick up for myself when someone attacks me.

It was a misunderstanding. Can't you two just shake virtual hands and move on? Let's not close down another thread because of petty fighting. Okay? Really, I'm just trying to stop this before it gets out of hand. :)

I read her posts and she makes me cry tears of hurt and pain the way she portrays me.

Is it possible that you are just taking it a bit personally, even though it wasn't intended that way?

We all get upset at times when someone writes something on the board that we take personally, and we feel the need to attack that person right back, it's human nature, I know I am guilty of it too, boy am I ever. ;)

Okay, I'm done trying to end this, it's up to the two of you now.

Peace. :)

Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Actually it does not matter one iota that you are Cherokee, ... or asian, or jewish, or black, or a labourer, or a paraplegic. What consequences did you expect?



My reply was a "consequence". I was basically telling you that people are accepted here regardless of physical characteristics/race/etc. I think you owe me an apology.
Then why didn’t you say that in the first place instead of the first post? If you had make yourself clear the first time, none of this would have been necessary.

If you are so tolerate of everyone, then surely you can accept that someone who has been tormented for his or her heritage would be sensitive when someone says my heritage does not matter one iota. It does matter to me... and the question, “what consequences did you expect” came off to me as another put down; as if I should expect consequences; as if I deserved the consequences that I got. I explained that I misunderstood your post. Is that not sufficient? If you would make yourself more clear and explain what you mean, and not expect people to ‘read between the lines' then I would have responded differently or not at all.

Is this really worth debating; as it has nothing to do with the topic here? Perhaps we should start our own debate on another board. And get other opinions to the question if I owe you an apology. Or if you owe me one for saying my heritage does not matter one iota.

Or if you owe me one for saying my heritage does not matter one iota. It doesn't... on an anonymous internet discussion board, that's the beauty of it. The New Yorker said it best in 1993:


http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/gerv/archives/2007/images/internet_dog.jpg

You made it appear as if my response was an example of why you keep your heritage hidden (i.e. I'm a bad guy) when it was nothing of the sort.

So your first post was correct, You consider me a dog because I'm Cherokee.

As I grew older, I proudly announced that I am Cherokee. I accepted the consequences.

This was a small part of a very long message directed to Margog, and has no importance on its own. It was to give an example that I know, at least to some degree, how it feels to be harassed by others who do not like who you are i.e. those who followed the parade with signs and yelled insults at them.
Your story was very moving, and certainly convinced me that you do understand margog's experience, probably better than I, who have never been persecuted or made to feel ashamed of who I am.

But in spite of that personal experience, you can still post a comment like this one:
However, it is my belief that gay people are demon possessed, just my opinion, based on my belief in the Holy Bible.I notice that it isn't your Cherokee heritage that you cite as the basis of your belief that homosexuality is caused by demon possession. I hope and trust that eventually your native cultural empathy will outweigh your adopted religious antipathy.

Your story was very moving, and certainly convinced me that you do understand margog's experience, probably better than I, who have never been persecuted or made to feel ashamed of who I am.

But in spite of that personal experience, you can still post a comment like this one:I notice that it isn't your Cherokee heritage that you cite as the basis of your belief that homosexuality is caused by demon possession. I hope and trust that eventually your native cultural empathy will outweigh your adopted religious antipathy.



I agree, I did not make myself clear, but as I also explained in that same post, or one post to Margog, I was meaning the ones I saw on the news of the Atlanta parade. The only example of gay parades I have known. To me they did look and act demon possessed. And it not only some gays who can be demon possessed, but anyone who allows it. This is my belief...for your benefit, I will clearify that.

I need to take my own advice and make myself clear on here. Thanks for pointing this out. I apologize for making that general remark. I apologize to Margog and to you and anyone who was offended by this remark.

I am at work and do not have time for a long response.

Just wanted to say thank you for your apology- it is appreciated and accepted.

:)

You are a good person, Margog. I'm pleased to have 'met' you. I thank you for your kindness and understanding.

Thank you. :) It has been a pleasure discussing this with you and taking the time to 'talk' about things, and understand one another better.

I really honestly believe that if people LISTENED to one another, and explained things to each other without the typical arrogance of 'I'm right and you're wrong no matter what you say' attitude that we see so often on these boards- there would be a lot less anger in the world, and people would really be able to live together more peacefully.

Like we've said... there are a lot less differences between people than often assumed- and most people can relate to one another on some level, if they take the time to talk rather than argue. And when you have that common understanding, which is attainable if people take the time to listen to each other... it makes peaceful coexistence very simple, even when you don't agree-

Again, I'm still at work, so I can't respond as fully as I'd like. Just wanted to pop in and thank you for a much needed compliment on a very hectic and crazy day. Your post was one of the few things today that has made me smile. :)

Margog wrote: I really honestly believe that if people LISTENED to one another, and explained things to each other without the typical arrogance of 'I'm right and you're wrong no matter what you say' attitude that we see so often on these boards- there would be a lot less anger in the world, and people would really be able to live together more peacefully.

Yes, I agree. If people would explain themselves fully, and not expect people to read their minds, then misunderstandings would not take place and if they would listen to explanations, and try to understand perhaps they would not be so offended, and attack without cause. Fortunately, I am thick skinned, as well as bronzed skinned, and used to such things; I expect such things.

I am so glad I made you smile. That made me smile. Now, if we could only get the rest of the world to smile……:):)

Yes, I agree. If people would explain themselves fully, and not expect people to read their minds, then misunderstandings would not take place and if they would listen to explanations, and try to understand perhaps they would not be so offended, and attack without cause.

I realize this is way of magog's topic, but do they require English Comp or writing courses any more? If not, here's good evidence they need reinstated...


(Glad you 2 made up)

(Glad you 2 made up)

We two were never mad at each other.

I just read here in the Sunday Newspapers that in the Dutch - Amsterdam Canals there was this weekend a huge canal boat happening supporting gay pride and gay freedom.
There was a boat with Dutch Governmental Ministers on it. And one with the Amsterdam Mayor on it. Another boat was of the Dutch police organization with a mix of heterosexual and homosexual / male and female police officers on it.
And of course a lot of boats with male and female gays with a minimum of clothing on.
Not a single protester was seen.
Even with my personal heterosexual preference I am glad for the Dutch gays that they live in such a tolerant nation... What an example to many here...

;)

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It seems so petty, so strange, so unproductive.
So "mean"?
In old sense of the word (stingy, ungenerous) as well as the modern sense (not nice).


Aren't Christians supposed to walk in the footsteps of their Christ? Would Jesus publicly berate someone who he felt needed guidance/help/salvation?
I thought Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

And yet the more fundamental a religion, the less tolerance exhibited. Why is that?

And yet the more fundamental a religion, the less tolerance exhibited. Why is that?
Excellent point ! I too like to see a valid reply to that too !

:rolleyes:

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Remember that organized religion is Man made, not God made. Man has flaws, no man is perfect, therefore organized religion also has it's flaws.