If Jesus was born to a human woman and lived as a human and then died and was then of spirit... where did his body go? If anyone else died and left their body behind it would take years to decompose... so where is Jesus' body...

That was almost 2,000 years ago. It would have been decomposed by now..

Champ,
I believe Jesus(alaihi salaam) did not die but was taken to Heaven,he will return before this world ends.
He will live and die like any other human being,which would confirm that he was not God nor divine in anyway,a special human chosen by the Almighty to be a Messenger.

In the Christian faith, he rose from the dead, so his body also rose.

If Jesus was born to a human woman and lived as a human and then died and was then of spirit... where did his body go? If anyone else died and left their body behind it would take years to decompose... so where is Jesus' body...
As Chuck posted : the christian faith has an answer to that, based on their belief.
However, as this is not the Christianity board, every other belief or view is here just as valid, be that based on belief in the Unicorn, the Spaghetti Monster, or whatever else someone wants to believe or disbelieve.
There are no remains of Jesus left in any way. There are even serious doubts if a person called Jesus ever existed. Some even suggest that Jesus' existence is entirely based on myth and belief only. Whatever is true : just as Jesus' birth is based on rather debateble claims, so are his (untraceable) remains. How conveniant !

Draw your own conclusions...

And to be honest what happened to his body is about the least of the issues of faith and belief within Chrsitianity, Since even if he body had remained, it would be gone now, as any body of that time frame.
What one has is the writings of several of his followers that they saw him after his death.

Chuck is as a Christian partially right to state that what happened to Jesus' body is (for him) "about the least of the issues of faith and beleif within Chrsitianity" .

But for many others this well may be a total different matter, and therefore the question posted is a fair one.
And as I stated earlier, "there are no remains of Jesus left in any way. There are even serious doubts if a person called Jesus ever existed. Some even suggest that Jesus' existence is entirely based on myth and belief only. Whatever is true : just as Jesus' birth is based on rather debateble claims, so are his (untraceable) remains. How conveniant !"

So better draw your own conclusions from that...

;)

Each religion teaches something different. As Credendovidis has stated it all depends on your own belief and your own conclusions.

For me personally, He was taken up to heaven. His body appeared to witnesses after his death with the wounds of the cruxification.

Jesushelper76's view on this is a reply from a Christian perspective , and is based on - as he confirms himself - his Christian belief.

The non-religious facts are that Jesus's origins are highly questionable, with his father being claimed to be the Christian god, and his mother being a "virgin" till his own birth, his many "miracles"performed during his life, and his disappearance to heaven after death. And not one single iota of supported evidence for any of all these claims exists.

I respect what people believe in. However, belief is no objective support for any of the many claims on which Jesus' features and heritage are based.

The question was : "Where did his (Jesus) body go?"
The answer to that question can only be : "I believe that Jesus body ........" (and fill in whatever you believe).
If achampio21 expects some detailed information on a location, supported by some objective evidence, he is asking for the impossible.
:)

Okay. I believe in a higher power I call that higher power God. I believe that we were created somehow by God. Because even if science proves that every single living thing that exists today evolved from one tiny speck of dirt someone or something had to put that tiny speck of dirt here it didn't just appear out of nowhere. But with that said my doubts come in when the bible is brought up. Because let's say that God created the universe and all the living things in it and then created Adam and Eve. Okay fine a and dandy. BUT man created the bible. Not God. And the very bible itself says that man is of sin and can only be cleansed by having faith in God. And we all know that popes and priests and preachers and reverands who claim to be of God or whoever lie to their wives cheat on their wives molest kids and murder people and various other horrible things. So even the MOST highly acclaimed christians, Catholics and so on are lower than dirt. And also MAN created churches, not God. And if you look into most churches they basically run everything off money from members or the gov. Including their own houses, utilities and vehicles and groceries. Because most of them do not have other jobs where they receive income. So... I have HUGE doubts in a book that was written by MAN that basically tells me that I have to give ten percent of my earnings to the church or I am not a good christian when the bible states that I can be forgiven and go to heaven if I just ask God to forgive me and believe in Jesus. Adam and Eve did not have to pay the city for a marriage license or pay a preacher to marry them they just were married and so where the thousands after them. Religion itself was created by man. Everyone believes a different way. And each reliegion has it's own "bible" and "laws" if you may of it's own. But from my small amount of research Most of those laws require people such as myself to give and give and give and the only thing I get is the promise of streets of gold and kissing Jesus's face. But in the meantime the preacher of the church that I am giving to is driving a mercades and living in a 200 thousand dollar house and getting hair implants. While I am struggling to pay my bills and feed my kids and you know what that man will tell me when I come to him with my problems... We will have the church pray for you and have faith my child it will get better...

So you can see why I am very sceptical of a man written book faith that seems like the poetry scams right off the internet.

And the other thing that I find simply amazing is the people that say God gave us the intellegence to use science to find cures and make cars and television and blah blah blah but in reality WHY THE HELL WOULD GOD GIVE US INTELLEGENCE TO MAKE STUFF THAT DESTROYS WHAT HE MADE?? Seems kind of stupid to me.

Give me your ideas...


If achampio21 expects some detailed information on a location, supported by some objective evidence, he is asking for the impossible.
:)


I am a she by the way:) But I am not sking for proof just thoughts! I and everyone else believe differently and I am just a curious person that wants to know everyone else's views!

Thank you for the responses!! I enjoy this so very much!!

... I am not sking for proof just thoughts!! I and everyone else believe differently and I am just a curious person that wants to know everyone elses views!
Sorry dear for calling you a "he". Humble apologies hereby offered! :)

As to your new point : the problem is that people only reply to such fundamental questions from their own worldview. A Christian will reply as per his or her Christian views, just as a Muslim will reply as per Muslim views, a Jew as per Jewish views, and a Secular Humanist as per humanistic views.

Personally I like your position. You accept and believe in a higher power, but without any linking to any human created religion or church organisation. You are therefore a deist.
A sound decision that excludes all that religious squabbling about who believes "correctly" and has "the one and only truth".
The only problem is that your acceptance of a higher power on itself is also a submission to something for which there is no objective supporting evidence, but is based on some human created "god". Just one more step, and you are a true humanist also...

As to your point "God gave us the intelligence to use ..." :
If there is a God, and that god gave that to humanity, than he/she would like us to use that capacity to the fullest, and exclude niches involving deities and worshipping of deities, while perhaps exclude the capacity to hurt others in any possible way.

The reality of life is that intelligence came with our need to be better and smarter , and to have an edge on others, and gain from that capacity, and therefore to use that intelligence at the expense of others. Humans are just smart apes, with a thin layer of ethical veneer that is only microns thick. That is why there are wars, hurt, and pain.
Your "American dream" is based on that edge to be better than others, and lift yourself above the average.

For me that shows that deities do not exist, but it is up to everyone to draw his or her own decision!

;)

Personally I like your position. You accept and believe in a higher power, but without any linking to any human created religion or church organisation. You are therefore a deist.
A sound decision that excludes all that religious squabbling about who believes "correctly" and has "the one and only truth".
The only problem is that your acceptance of a higher power on itself is also a submission to something for which there is no objective supporting evidence, but is based on some human created "god". Just one more step, and you are a true humanist also ...
;)


I guess I never really thought of me believing in a higher power being because society has created that belief. But I do see your point. If the thought of a higher power had never been planted into my mind would I have ever believed in it?. I doubt it.. but I also have these two things that make me a firm believer in a higher power...

Do you feel emotion? Love, joy, sadness, pain... Yes of course you do. If not then I am very sorry:) But my point is this what proof is there of emotion other than feeling? NONE! There is proof of REACTIONS to feelings but none of feelings themselves. So I ask you how do you know are happy? You FEEL it. How do you know you are sad? Because you FEEL it.

Also my other is the fact that I have given birth to 3 beautiful children. And I realize that sperm and egg join together and then the fertilized egg attaches itself to the uterus and so then begins the process of new life... but after the nine months is over and the mood swings and the hard labor and the pushing is over I was OVERWHELMED with such an intense feeling of... I can't even give it a title because it can't be described. I mean holding a baby that grew inside my very own body and is alive only because I fed him/her and basically allowed him/her to live was so amazing that I don't think I could EVER doubt some higher power. I mean do you really think I as a woman who has given birth 3 times could credit a mere man with that kind of amazing power!! ( no offense intended :))

But yes I agree with your thoughts. I have no idea what the definition of a deist or humanist is.. if you care to take the time to enlighten me I would be delighted. But I think how I think and I am always open to others ideas!!

Also my other is the fact that I have given birth to 3 beautiful children. And I realize that sperm and egg join together and then the fertilized egg attaches itself to the uterus and so then begins the process of new life... but after the nine months is over and the mood swings and the hard labor and the pushing is over I was OVERWHELMED with such an intense feeling of ... I can't even give it a title because it can't be described. I mean holding a baby that grew inside my very own body and is alive only because I fed him/her and basically allowed him/her to live was so amazing that I don't think I could EVER doubt some higher power. I mean do you really think I as a woman who has given birth 3 times could credit a mere man with that kind of amazing power!!!! ( no offense intended :))



That was beautiful!
I just had to tell you that was a beautiful thought.:)


Mere man cannot accomplish such feats without an Almighty.:)

Also my other is the fact that I have given birth to 3 beautiful children. And I realize that sperm and egg join together and then the fertilized egg attaches itself to the uterus and so then begins the process of new life... but after the nine months is over and the mood swings and the hard labor and the pushing is over I was OVERWHELMED with such an intense feeling of ... I can't even give it a title because it can't be described. I mean holding a baby that grew inside my very own body and is alive only because I fed him/her and basically allowed him/her to live was so amazing that I don't think I could EVER doubt some higher power. I'm a guy, we have 2 children, I have the same feelings for my children as you do. I'm atheist by the way so in my case it has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with loving my kids.

I'm a guy, we have 2 children, I have the same feelings for my children as you do. I'm atheist by the way so in my case it has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with loving my kids.

First of all I meant no affense to "men" in particular. Simply mankind as a whole.

And I don't know much about atheist except that they don't believe in a "god". But my question is this...

If you don't believe in a higher power, and like I said I am not familiar with your belief, then how do you believe is the way in how we got here? I am simply curious.

And I have no doubt that you love your kids, I was simply stating that in my own PERSONAL experience it made me believe even more in my God. You believe how you want.


That was beautiful!
I just had to tell you that was a beautiful thought.:)


Mere man cannot accomplish such feats without an Almighty.:)

Thank you firmbeliever. It was a moment of tears, laughter, pain, and pretty much every single emotion you could ever feel that is good wrapped up into one amazing moment. That's about the best description I can give it.

If you don't believe in a higher power, and like I said I am not familiar with your belief, then how do you believe is the way in how we got here? I am simply curious. Other than my parents made me, I don't think about some guy in the sky waving his hand and all life appeared. I don't sit around and wonder where we all came from, I go out and live life and share living with others. Life isn't that complicated in my world; I control my life. :)

Interesting.

Then I am curious. If you believe that YOU control your own life, how do cope when a tornado that YOU didn't create rips your house to shreds?

That's weather related: cold fronts, warm fronts, high pressure, low pressure. Do you think every breath of wind is generated by a god?

Look. I am not being a sarcastic a**. I am seriously curious about what others think!
I did a Google search on religions and found over 50 different types of religions! I found out that there is even a "religion' called Hellinism! I mean for crying out loud how many different kinds of religion are there!! And I am extremely curious in those that don't believe in a higher power because I want to know how they think is the way that life was started!

Because just like needkarma did they avoid my question and give a generalized statement that is degrading to my own belief when I was NEVER degrading to theirs!

Either people are EXTREMELY sensitive on this topic or they don't even know what they believe and don't want to talk about it because they themselves are confused.!

I feel like I am asking the parent of a raped little boy to tell me all the gory details!!

If you truly believe in it then why is it soo damn hard to talk about it!!!!!!!

I'm not sure what set you off here. I simply answered your question. I never degraded your belief.

Other than my parents made me, I don't think about some guy in the sky waving his hand and all life appeared. I don't sit around and wonder where we all came from, I go out and live life and share living with others. Life isn't that complicated in my world; I control my life. :)

No but you did evade my question. You never told me how you believe we got here you simply stated how you Don't believe we got here.

I answered your question. We got here because our parents made us. I also added that how I don't think about how man started by evolution is the best bet so far.

Okay. Well I guess I want to know how you believe the very first human or organism or speck of dirt or whatever got here. Or do you just not think about that because no one has figured it out yet as far as proof of no higher power or whatever?

I guess I want to know how non-believers explain life's existence when they are asked about it. How do you explain how the very first anything was created?

I answered already - we don't know but we don't attribute it to an unseen force.

Okay. You never said that you didn't know all you said is "I don't sit around and wonder where we all came from..."

So "We don't know" is a better answer for me. Thank you.

Champ,
Regarding atheist views on life
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/spirituality/atheists-do-not-believe-how-111864.html?highlight=atheists+dont+believe

Part of the issues is that just within Christianity, there are 100's of different types of but almost all have some basic faiths on Jesus and what he did, and what happened to his body.

The issue after that is except for Islam, none of the other include Jesus at all, some may allow him to be a prophet of another religion but many will like to claim he does not exist.

So if you ask anyone but a christian, to them christ did not even exist, so there is no body, So if you are asking about Jesus, the only place to find the truth about him is in the bible.

Jesushelper76's view on this is a reply from a Christian perspective , and is based on - as he confirms himself - his Christian belief.

The non-religious facts are that Jesus's origins are highly questionable,.
:)

Non-religious?

Aren't you contradicting yourself? You just objected to Fr. Chuck because he commented on behalf of the Christian perspective on this religious board. But you are commenting on a religious board on behalf of the non-religious. Therefore, who has more rights here on this other religious forum, the non-religious or Fr. Chuck?

Oh, and non-religious opinions are not facts. They are simply opinions.

Sincerely,

De Maria


If Jesus was born to a human woman and lived as a human and then died and was then of spirit... where did his body go?

Was then a spirit? Jesus was spiritualized in His resurrected body, but He was not a Spirit:

John 21:24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said: Peace be to you. 27 Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing. 28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. 29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.

Jesus proved to Thomas that His body was real by putting his finger in His wound.

Luke 24 36 Now whilst they were speaking these things, Jesus stood in the midst of them, and saith to them: Peace be to you; it is I, fear not. 37 But they being troubled and frightened, supposed that they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them: Why are you troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have. 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 But while they yet believed not, and wondered for joy, he said: Have you any thing to eat? 42 And they offered him a piece of a broiled fish, and a honeycomb. 43 And when he had eaten before them, taking the remains, he gave to them.


If anyone else died and left their body behind it would take years to decompose... so where is Jesus' body...

But Jesus didn't leave His body behind. According to Scripture, Jesus ascended into heaven in His human body:

Acts 1 6 They therefore who were come together, asked him, saying: Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 But he said to them: It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power: 8 But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had said these things, while they looked on, he was raised up: and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they were beholding him going up to heaven, behold two men stood by them in white garments.

11 Who also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand you looking up to heaven? This Jesus who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, as you have seen him going into heaven. 12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount that is called Olivet, which is nigh Jerusalem, within a sabbath day's journey.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Non-religious? .... Therefore, who has more rights here on this other religious forum, the non-religious or Fr. Chuck?

Nobody and no view have more "rights" here or anywhere else. Believe whatever you like to believe. But whatever you BELIEVE , realize that it is BELIEF. It only becomes a fact once you provide objective supporting evidence for whatever you claim to be "true" !


Oh, and non-religious opinions are not facts. They are simply opinions.


Opinions are never facts. They are opinions. The difference between religious and non-religious views is that the first is based on BELIEF only, and the non-religious views are often based on facts and/or the lack of facts that should be provided for religious views - if believers claim them to be "the one and only truth".

The reality is that believers claim something without being capable of providing even the smallest iota of objective supporting evidence for what they claim. Ever.
Non-believers do not have to prove that the religious CLAIMS are incorrect. Claims are just claims, and so far I have never seen any objective supporting evidence for any of the basic and essential religious claims by religions. Like the Christian-Judean God exists, the Bible is based on God's words, Jesus was the son of God, etc.

Draw your own conclusion from that...

Link to : Some good reading on belief in God/Gods and the reality of belief. (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/)

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

This lead's Question :
If Jesus was born to a human woman and lived as a human and then died and was then of spirit... where did his body go?
Reaction De Maria :

Was then a spirit? Jesus was spiritualized in His resurrected body, but He was not a Spirit ....
That is nittpicking. The question is clear and straightforward. You are deliberately sidestepping the question.


But Jesus didn't leave His body behind. According to Scripture, Jesus ascended into heaven in His human body
"According to Scripture" : that is BELIEF. Can you provide objective supporting evidence that that really happened? Again you are deliberately sidestepping the question.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


... if you ask anyone but a christian, to them christ did not even exist, so there is no body, So if you are asking about Jesus, the only place to find the truth about him is in the bible.
Christ never existed. Christ is not a person, but a title.
Jesus of Nazareth may have existed, but there is no real objective supported evidence for that. Even for that !

This non-theist is hardly interested if Jesus existed or not. Your statement is (therefore) incorrect. And I am not the only one : for me and most other non-theists the only thing that is relevant is that there is no objective supporting evidence for :

1 - God/Gods exist.
2 - The Christian - Judean God exists, and has the powers as claimed in the Bible.
3 - God is the real author of the Bible.
4 - Jesus is the son of God.
5 - Jesus with God and the Holly Spirit are one and the same.

As to the original question in this lead : Jesus' body is claimed to have gone to heaven.
There is no objective supporting evidence for that claim.
It is based on BELIEF and nothing else.

You stated : the only place to find the truth about him is in the bible.
That is what you BELIEVE... But is it the truth? Can you prove that with objective supporting evidence ?
.

My belief achamp according to the scriptures, is that Jesus fleshly body was taken by God after his burial in the tomb, fulfilling the words at Psa 16:10 - "You will not leave my body in Sheol. You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit." If God had left Jesus fleshly body in the tomb 1) his disciples would not have fully understood him being raised up if they saw his body as they didn't yet fully appreciate spiritual things. 2) it was likely that his body or parts of it would be used for worship or exploitation.
During the next 40 days that he appeared in fleshly bodies, they were obviously different to his original as Mary didn't recognise him and neither did two of his disciples while walking to Emmaus, although the body he appeared to Thomas in was very similar with holes in the hands and side for that was the only way Thomas said he would believe in Jesus being alive again.
Whether he took his physical body to heaven is answered by Paul who states in 1 Cor 15:44,50 "It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body...flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom." In other words, only spirit beings with spiritual bodies can reside in the heavens. Human bodies are intended for the earth.
Incidentally, there seems to be well over 30,000 different denominations who claim to be christian, which makes up 1/3rd of the worlds population. Hindus and muslims make up another 3rd and the rest are non-religious, Buddhist, Jewish, new-religionist etc.
Good onya for being curious! Never hurts to ask questions right? :)

achampio21 posted the following question :

If Jesus was born to a human woman and lived as a human and then died and was then of spirit... where did his body go?

Once that question became really interesting when RESPECTFUL but different views from all directions were added, the question and all reactions to it suddenly disappeared from this board.

Does this really suggest board censorship ? There was nothing that gave reason for this action! Let's hope this lead was accidental unintended deleted...

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

My reply (post 32) contained reactions to 3 statements : De Maria , achampio21 , and Fr_Chuck.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


Non-religious? .... Therefore, who has more rights here on this other religious forum, the non-religious or Fr. Chuck?
Nobody and no view have more "rights" here or anywhere else. Believe whatever you like to believe. But whatever you BELIEVE , realize that it is BELIEF. It only becomes a fact once you provide objective supporting evidence for whatever you claim to be "true" !


Oh, and non-religious opinions are not facts. They are simply opinions.
Opinions are never facts. They are just opinions. The difference between religious and non-religious views is that the first is based on BELIEF only, and the non-religious views are often based on facts and/or the lack of facts that should be provided for religious views - if believers claim them to be "the one and only truth".

The reality is that believers claim something as the "one and only truth" without being capable of providing even the smallest iota of objective supporting evidence for what they claim. Ever.
Non-believers do not have to prove that the religious CLAIMS are incorrect. Claims are just claims, and so far I have never seen any objective supporting evidence for any of the basic and essential religious claims by religions. Like the Christian-Judean God exists, the Bible is based on God's words, Jesus was the son of God, etc.

Draw your own conclusion from that...
Some good reading on belief in God/Gods and the reality of belief. (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/)

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Originally Posted by achampio21 : "If Jesus was born to a human woman and lived as a human and then died and was then of spirit... where did his body go?"
Reaction
... Was then a spirit? Jesus was spiritualized in His resurrected body, but He was not a Spirit ....
My reaction to De Maria : That is nittpicking. The question is clear and straightforward. You are deliberately sidestepping the question.


... But Jesus didn't leave His body behind. According to Scripture, Jesus ascended into heaven in His human body
My reaction to De Maria : "According to Scripture" : that is BELIEF. Can you provide objective supporting evidence that that really happened?
Again you are deliberately sidestepping the question.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Fr_Chuck (Super Moderator) stated in that lead on 1 June 2008 , 11:46 PM (post #29) :


Part of the issues is that just within Christianity, there are 100's of different types of but almost all have some basic faiths on Jesus and what he did, and what happened to his body.
The issue after that is except for Islam, none of the other include Jesus at all, some may allow him to be a prophet of another religion but many will like to claim he does not exist.
So if you ask anyone but a christian, to them christ did not even exist, so there is no body, So if you are asking about Jesus, the only place to find the truth about him is in the bible.
My reaction to Fr_Chuck :
Christ never existed. Christ is not a person, but a title.
Jesus of Nazareth may have existed, but there is no real objective supported evidence for that. Even for that !

This non-theist is hardly interested if Jesus existed or not. Your statement is therefore incorrect. And I am not the only one : for most other non-theists the only thing that is relevant is that there is no objective supporting evidence for :

1 - God/Gods exist.
2 - The Christian - Judean God exists, and has the powers as claimed in the Bible.
3 - God is the real author of the Bible.
4 - Jesus is the son of God.
5 - Jesus with God and the Holly Spirit are one and the same.

As to the original question in this lead : Jesus' body is claimed to have gone to heaven.
There is no objective supporting evidence for that claim.
It is based on BELIEF and nothing else.

You stated : the only place to find the truth about him is in the bible.
That is what you BELIEVE... But is it the truth? Can you prove that with objective supporting evidence ?
.
.
.
So referring to this last reaction to Fr_Chuck :
.
As stated : Jesus may have existed as a real person but Christ was not a person but a title
What is your opinion ?

Once that question became really interesting when RESPECTFUL but different views from all directions were added, the question and all reactions to it suddenly disappeared from this board.

Does this really suggest board censorship ? There was nothing that gave reason for this action! Let's hope this lead was accidental unintended deleted ...

Don't start with this rubbish!
The thread was simply MOVED here as it has turned into a discussion.

I await your apology.


Also I would like to clear up the rights comment.

There are ZERO rights conferred, either implicitly or implied, anywhere on AMHD.

ALL members are free to post anywhere on the site, as long as said posts comply with AMHD's TOS.

Don't start with this rubbish !!
The thread was simply MOVED here as it has turned into a discussion.

I await your apology.

I have no problem apologizing for that. Sorry ! Had you left somewhere a note that the thread was moved, my comments would even have been understanding and supportive. How could anyone know that you MOVED it ? There was nowhere any information about that move !


Also I would like to clear up the rights comment.
There are ZERO rights conferred, either implicitly or implied, anywhere on AMHD.
ALL members are free to post anywhere on the site, as long as said posts comply with AMHD's TOS.
With all respect : that is only partially true. At several occations I have been warned that my respectful replies to christian questions on the Christianity board were not welcome, because I am not a Christian. Is there a different rule for that board, perhaps?

All links to this thread would automatically direct people here so no move announcement is needed.

Also:



Also I would like to clear up the rights comment.
There are ZERO rights conferred, either implicitly or implied, anywhere on AMHD.
ALL members are free to post anywhere on the site, as long as said posts comply with AMHD's TOS.
With all respect : that is only partially true. At several occations I have been warned that my respectful replies to christian questions on the Christianity board were not welcome, because I am not a Christian. Is there a different rule for that board, perhaps?

Reread EXACTLY what I have written on this subject and DON'T imply things that aren't there.

Okay. Awesome. So far I have found out this much...

In the christian religion Jesus died on the cross, was buried, rose from the dead and his body and all went to Heaven.

In atheist religion well I pretty much have figured that they don't believe in anything. They live day to day and believe they can for the most part control their destiny.

I have also found that religion is a pretty vague and VERY broad subject.

As I stated earlier I believe in a higher power. God is the title I choose. I believe in Him for my own reasons. The bible to me is a man made structure that just like any man-made structure has been altered, changed, and made to fit the conditions of a particular time-frame. And with time will break down just like any other man-made structure. Now I'm not saying the whole thing is a sham, but I have serious doubts in a majority of it's content. Just like how the old and new testament contradict themselves.

I think everyone should and can believe in whatever they want. But I have a lot of questions and doubts that talking to preachers and the like haven't answered. Just about every christian I talk to wants to kind of walk around my questions and direct me to the bible. But I know I have found contracdicting scripture on several subjects. Where it will say one thing in one part and the opposite in another part. Not to mention the bible itself is written like a legal agreement with any court is written... confusing. It can't just say...

God is God. Here is what He did. Here is what He made. Here is a son that He created. Here is what his son did. And now the same people that worshipped Him have had Him killed. Oh, and now He is alive again. And there He goes to be with God. But He will be back someday.

No it was written so 500 people could take it's meaning completely out of context and debate it and argue certain views. It was written so that you could 20 different religions all based on one freakin book. But every single one of them believe differently.

I just don't get it. I think it is perfectly OK for me to believe in God and not go to church and not give money to a church that will abuse it anyway. And I don't need everyone praying for me because if he hears everyone He can hear me by myself just fine.

So I don't know. I am just asking questions and getting feedback. I guess if the Christian faith believes that Jesus' body and all went up to Heaven my next questions would be: where is Heaven and how long until Jesus got there and if he was alive enough for people to touch him then he was still "alive" when he went to Heaven right. And if that is the case then can he walk in Heaven or did he change to a spirit when he got there?where in the bible does it answer those questions? I mean it can go on and on.



Okay, I found this on the board that firmbeliever directed me too. And I really liked it so I am copying it here because it won't let me quote user that way... or I just don't know how yet.. lol


Originally posted by michaelb on different board for different question:

"Why would you believe? There have been so many gods over the course of humanity that we can't even keep count. Why does anyone of them deserve your worship more than the other."

Okay. Awesome. So far I have found out this much...


God is God. Here is what He did. Here is what He made. Here is a son that He created. Here is what his son did. And now the same people that worshipped Him have had Him killed. Oh, and now He is alive again. And there He goes to be with God. But He will be back someday.


Okay, I found this on the board that firmbeliever directed me too.

I am glad you found that thread.:)

Just to let you know that my answers are from an Islamic viewpoint (sorry forgot to mention that in my earlier post).

Thanks firmbeliever. Islamic is one religion I am not at all familiar with. But I am interested in all of them.

To De Maria:

You stated that all the previous gods never had eyewitness accounts and Jesus had many. Well I have this comment on the eyewitness thing...

You go to Wal-mart and pick up any tabloid and I can guarantee you that you will find a bunch of eyewitness accounts to the lockness monster, to alien encounters, to mermaids, to babies with five heads, etc etc. Why should we believe in the eyewitness accounts that Jesus existed and rose and that he was alive again because someone put their finger in the hole in his hand and then he went up to heaven, but not that unicorns and mermaids and lockness monsters and alien encounters and five headed babies aren't real? Those all have "eyewitness" accounts too.

And I am starting to get the feeling that firmbeliever is the only that is still talking to me on this thread...
Didn't want to start a right or wrong debate.. just wanted each person's opinions and beliefs. No one is right or wrong. Everyone just feels they way they feel. That goes with everything. I don't like cheese, but you might. I don't believe in same-sex or interracial relationships, but you might. Who cares. Let's just talk about it and maybe we will learn some things we never knew. :)

Nobody and no view have more "rights" here or anywhere else. Believe whatever you like to believe. But whatever you BELIEVE , realize that it is BELIEF. It only becomes a fact once you provide objective supporting evidence for whatever you claim to be "true" !

I believe Fr. Chuck is a moderator on this forum. What gives you more say than he as to what is acceptable on this forum? Are you a moderator also? And if so, do you outrank Fr. Chuck?


Opinions are never facts. They are opinions. The difference between religious and non-religious views is that the first is based on BELIEF only, and the non-religious views are often based on facts

Wrong on both counts. Religious people base their beliefs on many facts.

And, non-religious people frequently don't believe that God exists. Yet, they can't prove that God exists. That is an opinion, not a fact.


and/or the lack of facts that should be provided for religious views - if believers claim them to be "the one and only truth".

This is speculative. What believers should provide is up to them to decide. It is not written anywhere that we must provide anything.


The reality is that believers claim something without being capable of providing even the smallest iota of objective supporting evidence for what they claim. Ever.

Not true. As believers in God, we see a wonderful world which presence can only be explained by the wisdom of God.

And non-believers in God, actually believe whatever comes down the pike. I don't know what variation of non-belief you subscribe to, so I'll withhold comment until you divulge your beliefs.


Non-believers do not have to prove that the religious CLAIMS are incorrect.

But they do need to prove that their claims are correct.


Claims are just claims, and so far I have never seen any objective supporting evidence for any of the basic and essential religious claims by religions. Like the Christian-Judean God exists, the Bible is based on God's words, Jesus was the son of God, etc.

That is fine. It isn't because you haven't seen it. It is because you reject it.


Draw your own conclusion from that...

Link to : Some good reading on belief in God/Gods and the reality of belief. (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/)

Study the doctrine of suffering, it will tell you why God doesn't heal amputees:

Catholic Culture : Library : Problem Of Suffering Reconsidered, The (http://www.catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=4297)


This lead's Question :
Reaction De Maria :

That is nittpicking. The question is clear and straightforward. You are deliberately sidestepping the question.

Not so, it is a correction of a false assumption. The OP assumes that Jesus came back as a Spirit. But Jesus Himself says He is not a Spirit only, but a Spirit with a body.


"According to Scripture" : that is BELIEF.

True, but that is belief supported by evidence. Eyewitness testimony is considered evidence in every court in the world. Scripture, the Gospels in this case, are the eyewitness testimony of Jesus' contemporaries who witnessed His Resurrection.


Can you provide objective supporting evidence that that really happened?

Again, eyewitness testimony substantiated by four witnesses is completely objective. You consider it subjective only because the finding disagrees with your subjective rejection of the evidence.


Again you are deliberately sidestepping the question.

Nope. I corrected the false assumption and then I addressed the question.


Christ never existed.

Certainly, if you believe the evidence, He did and does exist.


Christ is not a person, but a title.

Both actually. Jesus, the Christ, is the anointed One. He is a person.

Of course, the word Christ, is also a title which is given the Messiah who happens to be Jesus.


Jesus of Nazareth may have existed, but there is no real objective supported evidence for that. Even for that !

Actually, there are literally volumes. Besides the volumes in the Bible, there are the customs and cultures who have preserved his place of birth, of suffering, of preaching, of crucifixion and much other information to substantiate the written and oral accounts.

And there are the volumes written based on His teaching by those whom He taught and those taught by them.


This non-theist is hardly interested if Jesus existed or not.

Really? You seem quite interested in disproving His existence.


Your statement is (therefore) incorrect.

Huh? You just said you weren't interested and Fr. Chuck said:

to them christ did not even exist, so there is no body,

So if you aren't interested, why do you care?


And I am not the only one : for me and most other non-theists the only thing that is relevant is that there is no objective supporting evidence for :

1 - God/Gods exist.
2 - The Christian - Judean God exists, and has the powers as claimed in the Bible.
3 - God is the real author of the Bible.
4 - Jesus is the son of God.
5 - Jesus with God and the Holly Spirit are one and the same.


There is objective evidence for all of that. You just don't accept the evidence. Two different things.


As to the original question in this lead : Jesus' body is claimed to have gone to heaven.
There is no objective supporting evidence for that claim.

Eyewitness testimony.


It is based on BELIEF

Everything is based on belief. You have your set of beliefs which includes your belief that Christ did not exist.


and nothing else.

And that describes your belief. You have a belief with no evidence because you reject the evidence which is provided.


You stated : the only place to find the truth about him is in the bible.
That is what you BELIEVE... But is it the truth? Can you prove that with objective supporting evidence ?
.

Well, the Bible is already objective evidence. But we also have the Church and the many teachings of Christ which have been carried by Tradition. And the artifacts left from His time on earth and many other things which we can discuss.

Sincerely,

De Maria

To De Maria:

Hi


You stated that all the previous gods never had eyewitness accounts and Jesus had many. Well I have this comment on the eyewitness thing...

You go to Wal-mart and pick up any tabloid and I can guarantee you that you will find a bunch of eyewitness accounts to the lockness monster, to alien encounters, to mermaids, to babies with five heads, etc etc. Why should we believe in the eyewitness accounts that Jesus existed and rose and that he was alive again because someone put their finger in the hole in his hand and then he went up to heaven, but not that unicorns and mermaids and lockness monsters and alien encounters and five headed babies aren't real? Those all have "eyewitness" accounts too.

Hm? Hard to explain.

First I should tell you that my Catholic faith teaches me to have faith in other human beings as well as in God.

2 Timothy 2 2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.

Therefore, I don't automatically discount something because it sounds incredible. So, I believe that many of those things which people report to have seen may be "real".

So, lets compare the eyewitness testimony of the Gospels to the eyewitness testimony of these phenomenon.

1. The Apostles spent at least three years walking and talking with Jesus. They didn't just see Him in a glimpse. They knew Him intimately. They didn't just witness one miracle. They witnessed almost all of His miracles and they participated in many of them as well.

So, its kind of like comparing your knowledge of your parents, whom you lived with, vs some stranger who passed by and saw your two adults standing outside your house.

Does that make sense?

2. The motive. The Apostles went to their graves and never denied Christ. Either they were all crazy or they were telling the truth. I vote they were telling the truth.

How many of these eyewitnesses in these magazines do you think might be banking on a bit of profit for a harmless story about something out of the ordinary?

3. Why do I believe they were telling the truth. Because I have read their teachings, they have affected and changed my life and I have FAITH in them. In other words, just as I have faith that my parents love me, I have faith that the Apostles love me and want the best for me.

4. Finally, I believe many of those people who saw weird things are telling the truth. Many of them are not profiting from their witness and too many of them are saying it for it all to be made up. Besides, in this high tech world, many of them have footage of what they saw. Do you remember the ufos in Mexico City?

The one I remember was live footage on Mexican television from different cameras at the same time and showed the objects sitting still and moving. And this occurred for days in a row.

Were all these people faking the same thing at the same time? Why? So I believe something was there. Whether it was from alien technology or some secret human technology I can't tell you.

So, the wise saying in the Scripture is relevant here:
1 Thessalonians 5 21 But prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Okay. Good point.

I guess I just wonder about the writings in the bible. Because I know for a fact that the leaders of churches can and do abuse religion to profit just like some of the people in the tabloids. So I just wonder if some of the bible is exaggerated to benefit someone. It IS possible, but I am finding out that basically the christian religion is based on faith and the scripture. But you have to have faith that the scripture you read is real or it means nothing.

And what I think I know of catholics is that they focus more on the saints and Mary and not so much on Jesus. Is that right? And why is there such a broad difference between catholics and christians if you both basically believe in the same things?

HAHA! I just realized something reading back over my posts!! I kind of sound like a 4 or 5 year old asking mommy and daddy how babies get here!!
Sorry. I just thought laughing at myself would be funny for everyone!! :))

Okay. Good point.

Thanks.


I guess I just wonder about the writings in the bible. Because I know for a fact that the leaders of churches can and do abuse religion to profit just like some of the people in the tabloids.

Correct.


So I just wonder if some of the bible is exaggerated to benefit someone. It IS possible,

Correct.


but I am finding out that basically the christian religion is based on faith and the scripture. But you have to have faith that the scripture you read is real or it means nothing.

For Catholics, it is also the Church and Tradition:
80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 80 (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/80.htm)

97 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God" (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 97 (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/97.htm)


And what I think I know of catholics is that they focus more on the saints and Mary and not so much on Jesus. Is that right?

Not quite. Briefly, Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 4 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.

We follow the Saints because they are proven imitators of Christ:
James 5 16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.


And why is there such a broad difference between catholics and christians if you both basically believe in the same things?

It is a matter of emphasis. As it pertains to non-Catholics I am speaking from opinion only. They seem to emphasize the right to interpret Scripture according to their personal values alone. Whereas, Catholics interpret Scripture according to the Traditions which have existed from the time of Christ.


HAHA! I just realized something reading back over my posts!! I kind of sound like a 4 or 5 year old asking mommy and daddy how babies get here!!
Sorry. I just thought laughing at myself would be funny for everyone!! :))

It is really sweet and humble. Thanks for the opportunity to answer your questions.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Thank you De Maria for taking the time to answer them. I have millions more as do lots of people but I kind of started this question in reference to another thread and was advised to move this discussion to another board.

I want to thank EVERYONE for answering me with their own opinions and beliefs.

It is VERY fascinating to me how very different everyone is and yet we all breathe the very same air and we all have blood and we all are born and we all die. It is simply amzing to me how so many people that are fundamentally the same can have such totally different views. Someday maybe the truth will come out and everyone may find that everyone was wrong or everyone in some small way was right. I don't know.

But I do KNOW that whoever or whatever gave me this heart and this brain and my babies is truly awesome and I could NEVER thank him/her/it enough for the chance to experience this life and all that it has given/showed me.

( but I will say one more time... I LOVE THIS SITE!! )

The bible states jesus' body and spirit ascended into heaven. Leaving nothing behind.

I believe Fr. Chuck is a moderator on this forum. What gives you more say than he as to what is acceptable on this forum? Are you a moderator also? And if so, do you outrank Fr. Chuck?
You do not seem to understand the function of a moderator. A moderator makes sure everything on a board runs as per the rules. It does not provide him with heavenly insights. When he posts questions or replies here, he is just like you and me. Fr_Chuck is a human being, he is also AMHD moderator, but he is not the Pope !


And, non-religious people frequently don't believe that God exists. Yet, they can't prove that God exists. That is an opinion, not a fact.
Non-religious people do not have to prove that God does not exist. They do not claim what is called "a positive". The real claim is one made by believers, and they can not provide any objective supporting evidence for their claim. Don't reverse the order of evidence obligation.
Note that for me you do not have to prove anything, but in that case accept whatever you state as being a claim, instead of being "the one and only truth" !


... As believers in God, we see a wonderful world which presence can only be explained by the wisdom of God.
You BELIEVE that that can only be explained by (the wisdom of) God.
The point is that you can not prove that. So you BELIEVE , i.e. you CLAIM that. It is just your opinion !


... I don't know what variation of non-belief you subscribe to, so I'll withhold comment until you divulge your beliefs.
I am a Secular Humanist, married for already for a "blessed" 39 years to a very active Roman Catholic - who is involved in pastoral work and religious children education. I even married in church, after a detailed explanation of my non-religious position to the priest. I did that out of respect for my than wife-to-be and her views. We never had an argument on religious issues, although we frequently discuss religious and her pastoral activities.

Your problem is that you show little respect for any world view other than your own, and you show that position frequently in your postings.


Scripture, the Gospels in this case, are the eyewitness testimony of Jesus' contemporaries who witnessed His Resurrection.
There is no real objective supported evidence that these testimonies are TRUE.
There is even doubt about the resurrection, about Jesus' existence, about the entire Christian claim. That is, if you look further than just BELIEF in all these claims.


Jesus, the Christ, is the anointed One. He is a person.
Your are showing with your own words that you are now word-playing here.
Jesus was a person - at least I will accept that. There is no objective supported evidence that Jesus was the anointed one - a religious title and unproven CLAIM.


Actually, there are literally volumes. Besides the volumes in the Bible, there are the customs and cultures who have preserved his place of birth, of suffering, of preaching, of crucifixion and much other information to substantiate the written and oral accounts.
I clearly asked for objective supporting evidence. This is not. At best it is subjective based support for all the claims. Cultural habits and ties are no objective supporting evidence for any religious claims.


Really? You seem quite interested in disproving His existence.
There you start again with your disrespect ! I do not try to disprove anything. I merely ask you to either prove your religious claims with objective supported evidence, or accept that whatever you BELIEVE is BELIEF, and not the "one and only truth".


So if you aren't interested, why do you care?
Because you and many like you tend to misuse (their own personal version of) religion to threaten the freedoms of non-religious people. History shows that religious people tend to force their personal believe onto others.
I care, because I support your and others need for freedom of religion, but note that many like you fail to extend that freedom to freedom from religion.
If you focus on the US situation, recent history shows the influence of religion on worldly affairs (presidential elections for instance). Also non-believers living in the center of the biblebelt have huge problems finding a job. There clearly is a bias by religious people outside religious affairs for "their own", and that is undemocratic and unfair.


There is objective evidence for all of that. You just don't accept the evidence. Two different things.
Strange than, that every time I ask for that objective supported evidence I only get subjective support for a BELIEF. I wonder why that is. :)


Everything is based on belief. You have your set of beliefs which includes your belief that Christ did not exist.
NOT TRUE ! The word BELIEF means that it is a position for which there is no supporting evidence.
As a Secular Humanist I do not BELIEVE in myths and wild religious claims.
I have no opinion for or against Jesus' existence, though I accept that he as a human being can have existed. As to Jesus Christ : that is a religious claim, and has to be proven by those who agree with that position. So far objective supporting evidence for the following never has materilized :
- (The Christian) God exists and is the Creator.
- God is in fact the creator of the Bible, and the Bible is his word.
- Jesus is the son of that God.
- Jesus as son of God, together with the Holy Spirit, is part of God (the Trinity).

So I suggest you do your homework and prove these 4 points to me and all other non-religious people. No problem if you can't or don't. I (we) all know that you BELIEVE that all !


Well, the Bible is already objective evidence. But we also have the Church and the many teachings of Christ which have been carried by Tradition. And the artifacts left from His time on earth and many other things which we can discuss.
All subjective claims. None of that even smells like anything objective. Conclusion : you simply BELIEVE that. Fine with me. But than whatever you BELIEVE is just BELIEF, and far from the "one and only truth" !

Sincerely also,

Credendovidis

But I do KNOW that whoever or whatever gave me this heart and this brain and my babies is truly awesome and I could NEVER thank him/her/it enough for the chance to experience this life and all that it has given/showed me.
Yes. Wonderful is it not how nature by means of abiogenesis and evolution developed from non-living materials to whatever lives today ! What a pleasure to be part of this all , even if it is only for such a relative short period. And what a privilege to pass on your genes into future human generations, giving a meaning to your life even after death.


I LOVE THIS SITE!!!!!)
Hear, hear, hear!! How right you are on that one !

:)

Credendovidis, you are such a delight to discuss topics with!! You have just as much heart in your beliefs( or maybe non-beliefs :)) as I do. I enjoy that about you. Thank you for the pleasure of this discussion!!

I have been enlightened more than you or anyone else could possibly know! :)

You do not seem to understand the function of a moderator. A moderator makes sure everything on a board runs as per the rules. It does not provide him with heavenly insights. When he posts questions or replies here, he is just like you and me. Fr_Chuck is a human being, he is also AMHD moderator, but he is not the Pope !

Yeah, but I think the "administrator", the Head Moderator in Charge pretty much put you in your place when he called your messages "rubbish!" So for all your bluster, you have no say here.


Non-religious people do not have to prove that God does not exist. They do not claim what is called "a positive".

Well, yes, they do. They claim that everything they see came to be on its own. Since we don't see anything that creates itself, they claim a positive which is disproved by the evidence.


The real claim is one made by believers, and they can not provide any objective supporting evidence for their claim.

Certainly we can. We see that all creatures which exist are intelligently. Logically speaking, this is impossible unless an Intelligence created them. If I find a watch on the ground, I don't ask, when did it create itself? I ask, who made it?

By the same token, when you want a car, you don't wait on it to create itself in your garage. You go out and buy one that has already been built by a car maker.

So, we believe in God because we see what He has created.


Don't reverse the order of evidence obligation.

Oh my, have I broken a rule. What authority have I violated?


Note that for me you do not have to prove anything

That is simply because you claim not to care. But you contradict yourself by your very passionate defense of what you believe. And then your insistence of our presenting proof, which we do and then you deny.

So, you ought to make up your mind what your really want before you write one of these messages.


, but in that case accept whatever you state as being a claim, instead of being "the one and only truth" !

God is the Truth.

My claim is one that I can prove. Whether you accept the proof is your business.


You BELIEVE that that can only be explained by (the wisdom of) God.

And you BELIEVE that that can be explained by your wisdom. But you are wrong and have yet to provide any positive proof of any of your claims.


The point is that you can not prove that.

I have. But by your God given free will, you have denied the proof.


So you BELIEVE , i.e. you CLAIM that. It is just your opinion !

Yes, but it is a belief, claim and opinion I can prove. Unlike yours, for which you have provided no solution as yet except denials of ours.


I am a Secular Humanist, married for already for a "blessed" 39 years to a very active Roman Catholic - who is involved in pastoral work and religious children education. I even married in church, after a detailed explanation of my non-religious position to the priest. I did that out of respect for my than wife-to-be and her views. We never had an argument on religious issues, although we frequently discuss religious and her pastoral activities.

Congratulations! You're a lucky man:

When I met my girlfriend who is now my wife of 23 years, she was Catholic and I was atheist. At first, I resolved I would show her the error of her ways. But then a thought occurred to me, why should I take from the woman I love something which she loves and obviously comforts her? And since I firmly believed that God did not exist, what harm could it do for her to believe? We would both wind up in exactly the same place, the grave. Then the Scripture was proven true:

1 Cor 7 13 And if any woman hath a husband that believeth not, and he consent to dwell with her, let her not put away her husband. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy.


Your problem is that you show little respect for any world view other than your own, and you show that position frequently in your postings.

Actually, I think that describes you. I'm not the atheist trying to rob believers of their faith with no evidence to support my arguments. If you are really an atheist, what do you care if we believe? If you are right, we are going to wind up in the same place, food for worms. But if we are right,. Is that what you're afraid of?

As for me, I treat with respect anyone who treats me with respect.


There is no real objective supported evidence that these testimonies are TRUE.

Eyewitness testimony is accepted in every court in the world. Mulitple eyewitness testimonies supporting each other are considered invaluable in every court in the world.


There is even doubt about the resurrection, about Jesus' existence, about the entire Christian claim.

Only with people like yourself who cast doubt on anything which you don't want to believe simply because you don't want to believe it.


That is, if you look further than just BELIEF in all these claims.

I have.


Your are showing with your own words that you are now word-playing here.

Nope. You are showing with your own words that you really have no ground to stand on. You're reaching, but there's nothing to grab hold of because you don't even know why you don't believe.


Jesus was a person - at least I will accept that.

That's a start.


There is no objective supported evidence that Jesus was the anointed one - a religious title and unproven CLAIM.

The same evidence that proves He was a person proves He was the Anointed One. The same people who witnessed His Life, also witnessed His miracles and heard the Voice of God proclaiming Him The Son.


I clearly asked for objective supporting evidence.

All the evidence I have presented is objective. It is your attitude of rejection which is subjective. It is as your name says, Credendovidis. If you don't see it you don't believe it. That leaves very little to believe. According to that attitude, when you came into being, the world came into being. Since you never saw Caesar, he didn't exist. Since you didn't see Washington, he didn't exist. Pretty sad, actually.


This is not. At best it is subjective based support for all the claims. Cultural habits and ties are no objective supporting evidence for any religious claims.

Why yes, they are. It is the footprint. Jesus came and taught. People learned these lessons and put them into practice. These people know precisely who was the originator of these lessons and point to Him.


There you start again with your disrespect !

Moi? So you're not trying to disprove His existence? Let me reword it then, "Really, you seem quite interested in disproving His Divinity?"


I do not try to disprove anything.

If that is true, its because you accept the fact that you can't.


I merely ask you to either prove your religious claims with objective supported evidence, or accept that whatever you BELIEVE is BELIEF, and not the "one and only truth".

Well, that would be a lie wouldn't it? Why would I lie to myself?

I believe that God is Truth. I also believe my evidence is objective which supports my belief in Him. So, why should I allow you to coerce me into saying something which isn't true?

The problem, in my opinion, is that the existence of God and of people who can prove His existence bothers you. Because you know the consequences of not believing in the Being who created you.


Because you and many like you tend to misuse (their own personal version of) religion to threaten the freedoms of non-religious people. History shows that religious people tend to force their personal believe onto others.

History proves that SOME religious people have done that. But more frequently, history has proven that ATHEISTS are both more violent, more cruel and more efficient at destroying entire nations of people for their beliefs.

History also proves that Christians have developed the caring, fair and just societies in this the history of the world.


I care, because I support your and others need for freedom of religion, but note that many like you fail to extend that freedom to freedom from religion.

Really? Please show me where I or any Christian on this forum have curtailed your freedom not to believe in God. As I see it, the only thing to which we object is being insulted. Something which happens quite frequently on these forums when atheists find yourselves holding your tongue in your hands watching your arguments dissolve like castles of sand on the beach as the waves destroy them.


If you focus on the US situation, recent history shows the influence of religion on worldly affairs (presidential elections for instance). Also non-believers living in the center of the biblebelt have huge problems finding a job. There clearly is a bias by religious people outside religious affairs for "their own", and that is undemocratic and unfair.

Again, you are proving that atheists don't even know how to follow simple rules. Is this thread about bias in government or bias in religion or bias in elections? If it is, please inform me and I'll continue the discussion. Otherwise stick to the subject at hand.

It is another distinctive of atheists on this forum that when they feel they are losing an argument, they CHANGE THE SUBJECT.


Strange than, that every time I ask for that objective supported evidence I only get subjective support for a BELIEF. I wonder why that is. :)

Apparently you can't tell the difference. When you can prove that eyewitness testimony is considered subjective or if you can prove that eyewitness testimony is not allowed in court, let me know.



NOT TRUE ! The word BELIEF means that it is a position for which there is no supporting evidence.

Oooooh, red? Getting passionate about something about which you don't claim to care?;)

Which dictionary are you using? This is what Webster says:

Be·lief Listen to the pronunciation of belief
Pronunciation:
\bə-ˈlēf\
Function:
Noun
Etymology:
Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelēafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lēafa; akin to Old English lȳfan — more at believe
Date:
12th century

1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
belief - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/belief)

Take special note of number three which I highlighted for you.


As a Secular Humanist I do not BELIEVE in myths and wild religious claims.

As a faithful Catholic, neither do I.


I have no opinion for or against Jesus' existence,

Then what are you doing on this thread?


though I accept that he as a human being can have existed.

Good.


As to Jesus Christ : that is a religious claim, and has to be proven by those who agree with that position.

We have provided the evidence. If the evidence does not convince you, so be it. You have freedom of will and conscience, believe what you will.


So far objective supporting evidence for the following never has materilized :
- (The Christian) God exists and is the Creator.

Sure it has. You just deny the evidence.


- God is in fact the creator of the Bible, and the Bible is his word.
- Jesus is the son of that God.
- Jesus as son of God, together with the Holy Spirit, is part of God (the Trinity).

Again, the tactic is clear. Since you can't hold up your argument on one theme, you muddy the waters by injecting many themes which weren't being discussed. Don't you think that before we go into whether God inspired the Bible, you must first accept the premise that God exists?

That just seems basic logic to me. So if that logic makes sense to you, then your tactic is clear, you are simply introducing "straw men" in order to draw attention from the fact that you have lost this argument.


So I suggest you do your homework and prove these 4 points to me and all other non-religious people. No problem if you can't or don't. I (we) all know that you BELIEVE that all !

I'd love to go into detail on any of those subjects. However, this thread is about "where did His body go?"


All subjective claims. None of that even smells like anything objective.

Perhaps, but at least I tried to prove my claims.


Conclusion : you simply BELIEVE that. Fine with me. But than whatever you BELIEVE is just BELIEF, and far from the "one and only truth" !

That's called "projection".
Projection
Projection is attributing your own repressed thoughts to someone else.
Changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/projection.htm - 22k -

First study the meaning of the word "believe". Apparently, you go around believing things that don't make sense. But I don't. First, I expect things to be proven to me. Once they are proven to me, then I believe them.

So, although you expect your "beliefs" to be unproven. I am not like you.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Yes. Wonderful is it not how nature by means of abiogenesis and evolution developed from non-living materials to whatever lives today !

You have proven the Believers claim and you don't even know it. Obviously, nothing can create itself. So, since you don't want to give credit to God, you give credit to "nature".


What a pleasure to be part of this all ,

Quite. "Pleasure" a spiritual good also given us by God.


even if it is only for such a relative short period.

For you. For those of us who give credit to God, we look to eternity of joy and happiness in His Presence.


And what a privilege to pass on your genes into future human generations, giving a meaning to your life even after death.

That is true. But even more wonderful, the good news that you will if you accept God's goodness, get to share life in His Presence with all those whom you love even after death of the body on this earth. A privilege given us by God who created nature and all the wonders around us.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Okay. Awesome. So far I have found out this much...

Hi, I missed this message before. I'd like to attempt to answer these questions.


In the christian religion Jesus died on the cross, was buried, rose from the dead and his body and all went to Heaven.

Body and Spirit. Correct.


In atheist religion well I pretty much have figured that they don't believe in anything. They live day to day and believe they can for the most part control their destiny.

I have also found that religion is a pretty vague and VERY broad subject.

Vague? How so?

Or do you mean varied and broad? I would agree with that.


As I stated earlier I believe in a higher power. God is the title I choose. I believe in Him for my own reasons.

Excellent!


The bible to me is a man made structure that just like any man-made structure has been altered, changed, and made to fit the conditions of a particular time-frame. And with time will break down just like any other man-made structure.

Fair enough. But the New Testament has remained unchanged now for about 2000 years. The Old Testament for about 3000. And oral tradition on the Old Testament even longer.

That is pretty remarkable considering the rudimentary tools they had back then.


Now I'm not saying the whole thing is a sham, but I have serious doubts in a majority of it's content. Just like how the old and new testament contradict themselves.

Perhaps studying the Bible might help. Here's a website I recommend:
Welcome to the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology (http://www.salvationhistory.com/)

Scott Hahn has a way of making the most boring stuff, very interesting.


I think everyone should and can believe in whatever they want.

Agreed.


But I have a lot of questions and doubts that talking to preachers and the like haven't answered. Just about every christian I talk to wants to kind of walk around my questions and direct me to the bible. But I know I have found contracdicting scripture on several subjects.

If you ask the question here, we can try to answer. Which verses confuse you?


Where it will say one thing in one part and the opposite in another part. Not to mention the bible itself is written like a legal agreement with any court is written... confusing. It can't just say...

God is God. Here is what He did. Here is what He made. Here is a son that He created. Here is what his son did. And now the same people that worshipped Him have had Him killed. Oh, and now He is alive again. And there He goes to be with God. But He will be back someday.

That's a good summary. Does it sound incredible to you? Is that the problem?


No it was written so 500 people could take it's meaning completely out of context and debate it and argue certain views. It was written so that you could 20 different religions all based on one freakin book. But every single one of them believe differently.

No. It wasn't written so that 500 people could each read it differently. It was written in human language by human beings with human limitations. We have yet to invent a language which can't be misinterpreted by many people.

If you are American, you have a good example in American government. The founding Fathers were very wise to create a document, the Constitution, which listed all our laws. But they were even wiser not to let every single individual interpret it in their own way. They created a branch of government which was supposed to interpret the Constitution according to the intent of the Founding Fathers.

God did the same thing with the Bible. Originally, the Moses and the Levites were the ones who interpreted His Will.

Exodus 19 9 The Lord said to him: Lo, now will I come to thee in the darkness of a cloud, that the people may hear me speaking to thee, and may believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.

In the Old Testament, God left a hierarchy behind to administer His Church:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.


I just don't get it. I think it is perfectly OK for me to believe in God and not go to church and not give money to a church that will abuse it anyway. And I don't need everyone praying for me because if he hears everyone He can hear me by myself just fine.

As I mentioned in our previous conversation, our religion not only teaches faith in God but also faith in man. God revealed Himself to men in order that men may lead us to God. Its not a trip which we make on our own, but on the blood and shoulders of those who came before us.


So I don't know. I am just asking questions and getting feedback. I guess if the Christian faith believes that Jesus' body and all went up to Heaven my next questions would be: where is Heaven

Heaven is not a physical place but a Spiritual reality. Jesus body was spiritualized after the Resurrection therefore He could do both the physical and the spiritual:

1 Corinthians 15 44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written:


and how long until Jesus got there and if he was alive enough for people to touch him then he was still "alive" when he went to Heaven right.

Correct. Death is part of life. When we pass from this life we simply go to the next:

John 5 24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.


And if that is the case then can he walk in Heaven or did he change to a spirit when he got there?

This is just speculation. His Body is Spiritualized so He can walk on earth. But whether anyone can or needs to walk in heaven is doubtful because we believe heaven is beyond time and space. If there is no space, there is nothing to walk upon nor any reason to walk.


where in the bible does it answer those questions? I mean it can go on and on.

2 Corinthians 5 8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2 9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.


Okay, I found this on the board that firmbeliever directed me too. And I really liked it so I am copying it here because it won't let me quote user that way... or I just don't know how yet.. lol

Originally posted by michaelb on different board for different question:

"Why would you believe? There have been so many gods over the course of humanity that we can't even keep count. Why does anyone of them deserve your worship more than the other."

I went through much the same experience which you have expressed. I was an atheist for many years when my wife conceived our first child. Before that time, I had never seen any evidence of the existence of God. When my wife conceived, the thought occurred to me that all I did was make whoopee with my wife and suddenly a living breathing creature was produced?!

How wonderful is that?

More than that, I realized I only enjoyed the process. I did nothing else to bring it about. When I build a fence, I dig holes, nail boards, usually in the heat of the day and it's a very difficult business. But here the most wonderful thing in the world was being produced BY ME? And yet I had nothing to do. I didn't put the arms in place, the head, the muscles the nerves, NOTHING. I was simply the recipient of a wonderful gift.

And I can't look at my children and say, "no intelligence went into producing this." The intelligent design is obvious. There is absolutely no doubt that a Being created them with purpose and wisdom.

So, I went from not believing in God to believing in God, virtually overnight.

The next problem was which God. I looked around and considered Islam, Hinduism, Buddha, Protestantism and found them all wanting for many reasons. I came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church was the true faith.

I can give reasoned explanations on why I rejected each and everyone of those religions, if you are ever interested. Realize however, that it will probably cause furious debate on these forums. But I'm game if you are.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Okay I am not as good at that paste and answer quote thing as you. But I tried!! :)







Vague? How so?
Or do you mean varied and broad? I would agree with that.

Yes varied.

[/QUOTE]Fair enough. But the New Testament has remained unchanged now for about 2000 years. The Old Testament for about 3000. And oral tradition on the Old Testament even longer.
That is pretty remarkable considering the rudimentary tools they had back then.[/QUOTE]

I know they have been unchanged but it seems to me that certain churches change them or leave out certain parts in separate types of churches.


[/QUOTE]If you ask the question here, we can try to answer. Which verses confuse you?[/QUOTE]
Basically all of them. I get the simple ones but a lot them seem to talk in circles to me. Maybe because like you said it was interpreted by man. Like how in several places the bible it states that if you ask anything of God you shall get it.

John: 23And in that day you shall not ask me any thing. Amen, amen I say to you: if you ask the Father any thing in my name, he will give it you.

Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Luke 11:10
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

But that doesn't always happen. So why would Jesus promise something and not follow through?


[/QUOTE]Thats a good summary. Does it sound incredible to you? Is that the problem?[/QUOTE]
No, I wish the bible was as simple as that. Like here are the rules and here is what happened etc. But that is wishful thinking.




[/QUOTE]Heaven is not a physical place but a Spiritual reality. Jesus body was spiritualized after the Resurrection therefore He could do both the physical and the spiritual:[/QUOTE]

Okay I can handle that.


[/QUOTE]This is just speculation. His Body is Spiritualized so He can walk on earth. But whether anyone can or needs to walk in heaven is doubtful because we believe heaven is beyond time and space. If there is no space, there is nothing to walk upon nor any reason to walk.[/QUOTE]

I can deal with that too.




[/QUOTE]I went through much the same experience which you have expressed. I was an atheist for many years when my wife conceived our first child. Before that time, I had never seen any evidence of the existence of God. When my wife conceived, the thought occurred to me that all I did was make whoopee with my wife and suddenly a living breathing creature was produced?!!!

How wonderful is that?[/QUOTE]

Very wonderful!

[/QUOTE]More than that, I realized I only enjoyed the process. I did nothing else to bring it about. When I build a fence, I dig holes, nail boards, usually in the heat of the day and its a very difficult business. But here the most wonderful thing in the world was being produced BY ME? and yet I had nothing to do. I didn't put the arms in place, the head, the muscles the nerves, NOTHING. I was simply the recipient of a wonderful gift.[/QUOTE]

Amazing how little we do to create another life.

[/QUOTE]And I can't look at my children and say, "no intelligence went into producing this." The intelligent design is obvious. There is absolutely no doubt that a Being created them with purpose and wisdom.[/QUOTE]
I agree totally.

[/QUOTE]So, I went from not believing in God to believing in God, virtually overnight.[/QUOTE]
Pretty cool.

[/QUOTE]The next problem was which God. I looked around and considered Islam, Hinduism, Buddha, Protestantism and found them all wanting for many reasons. I came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church was the true faith.
I can give reasoned explanations on why I rejected each and everyone of those religions, if you are ever interested. Realize however, that it will probably cause furious debate on these forums. But I'm game if you are.[/QUOTE]

LOL! I have realized that. And may possibly take you up on that. :)

Okay I am not as good at that paste and answer quote thing as you. But I tried!! :)

No problem. Just remember, press the quote button and not the quick reply at the bottom of each message.

Then bookend each quote with the word quote in brackets [] and the /quote in []. If you press preview, that will show you if it worked.

Or you can highlight the words you want quoted and press the quote balloon on the edit menu above.


I know they have been unchanged but it seems to me that certain churches change them or leave out certain parts in separate types of churches.

That is true. So, discernment is necessary.


Basically all of them.

Then I suggest a Bible study like the one I recommended. Scott Hahn goes systematically through the Bible making it very understandable for the lay person. And its free.


I get the simple ones but a lot them seem to talk in circles to me. Maybe because like you said it was interpreted by man. Like how in several places the bible it states that if you ask anything of God you shall get it.

John: 23And in that day you shall not ask me any thing. Amen, amen I say to you: if you ask the Father any thing in my name, he will give it you.

Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Luke 11:10
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

But that doesn't always happen. So why would Jesus promise something and not follow through?

Because of our lack of faith.

Matthew 9 29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, According to your faith, be it done unto you.

7 Matthew 14 31 And immediately Jesus stretching forth his hand took hold of him, and said to him: O thou of little faith, why didst thou doubt?


And because sometimes we pray for the wrong reasons:
James 4 3 You ask, and receive not; because you ask amiss: that you may consume it on your concupiscences.

And because we don't persevere in prayer:
James 5 16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Luke 11 5 And he said to them: Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go to him at midnight, and shall say to him: Friend, lend me three loaves, 6 Because a friend of mine is come off his journey to me, and I have not what to set before him. 7 And he from within should answer, and say: Trouble me not, the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee. 8 Yet if he shall continue knocking, I say to you, although he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend; yet, because of his importunity, he will rise, and give him as many as he needeth.


No, I wish the bible was as simple as that. Like here are the rules and here is what happened etc. But that is wishful thinking.

I understand. But it is the same with everything worth knowing. Science, languages, math, even sports. We don't all wake up Einsteins one day. Most of us have to study to learn what we want to know.


Okay I can handle that.

I can deal with that too.



Very wonderful!

Amen!


Amazing how little we do to create another life.

It is truly a gift!


I agree totally.

I know you do. I can tell by your messages.


Pretty cool.

Yeah! Especially because nothing else changed. I was exactly the same person who for most of my life looked at the world and saw just material things, then the one day I could see God's hand at work in Creation.


LOL! I have realized that. And may possibly take you up on that. :)

Thanks for your kind message.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Credendovidis, you are such a delight to discuss topics with!!! You have just as much heart in your beliefs( or maybe non-beliefs :)) as I do. I enjoy that about you. Thank you for the pleasure of this discussion!!! I have been enlightened more than you or anyone else could possibly know!! :)
Thanks! The same goes for you and some others here just as well.
The important thing in all these discussions is respect for other views, whatever your own view is.
I could not resist here (though I seldom do that) to provide a glimpse on my personal views in this matter !
And these views are based on Secular Humanism.

Ciao!

:)

For De Maria :

I'll refrain from replying to all your earlier statements as time does not permit that, and react to the following two statements that I feel need some reaction.

Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Yes. Wonderful is it not how nature by means of abiogenesis and evolution developed from non-living materials to whatever lives today ! End quote Credendovidis.


You have proven the Believers claim and you don't even know it. Obviously, nothing can create itself. So, since you don't want to give credit to God, you give credit to "nature".
As usual from people of your attitude you suggest ignorance and lack of knowledge at my side, while you have no idea about my capacities, and repeatedly fail to prove whatever you claim yourself.
Again just as several times before you show lack of respect for others and their views.
You did not really reply to what I stated, but attacked me instead. However you failed to provide even the slightest support for any of your own claims.

Where did I "prove" any believers claim? What "believers" claim?
"Obviously nothing can create itself", you stated. "Obviously"? Why obviously? At this level of argument you have to provide proof for such a wild claim. And who claimed here that anything can create itself? Not I. You suggest that I did, without any support of course...


... For those of us who give credit to God, we look to eternity of joy and happiness in His Presence.
That excludes a lot of people... And even for a lot of Christians that is not true neither. Many Christians are only Christians because they fear eternal damnation and hell.

Next to that : even for that joy and happiness there is no support : it is what you BELIEVE. But nobody ever has been able to provide objective supporting evidence for that CLAIM of joy and happiness, or that presence of God, or even the existence of God !
I really don't mind that you BELIEVE that, but you seem unable to understand that there is/could be a huge difference between your religious beliefs and reality.
The point here is : are you not forgetting the possibility that you may be deceiving yourself with these religious claims? They may be wrong, they may be right, but there is no objective supporting evidence for any of them!

May I suggest that if you want to continue on this, that you open up a new lead, so that we do not interfere with the discussion by achampio21 here?

Ciao!

:)

For De Maria :

I'll refrain from replying to all your earlier statements as time does not permit that, and react to the following two statements that I feel need some reaction.

Ok.


As usual from people of your attitude you suggest ignorance and lack of knowledge at my side, while you have no idea about my capacities, and repeatedly fail to prove whatever you claim yourself.

Really? Did I do that? Please quote me.


Again just as several times before you show lack of respect for others and their views.

Again, if I showed lack of respect to you, it is because you disrespected me.


You did not really reply to what I stated, but attacked me instead.

I'm sure I responded. But if not, all you have to do is provide the proof. Quote me.


However you failed to provide even the slightest support for any of your own claims.

I think you are the one who has failed to show any support for your claims.


Where did I "prove" any believers claim? What "believers" claim?

Believers claim that God created the universe. By thanking nature, you have substituted nature for God. By thanking nature, you have treated nature as though it were a living, thinking entity.


"Obviously nothing can create itself", you stated. "Obviously"? Why obviously?

Because there is no experience of anything in this world creating itself. If you have such, provide the evidence.


At this level of argument you have to provide proof for such a wild claim.

It is you who have to provide proof for the wild claim that anything created itself.


And who claimed here that anything can create itself? Not I. You suggest that I did, without any support of course...

It is logically inferred from the fact that you deny a Creator. If there exists no Creator then this universe and everything in it created itself.


That excludes a lot of people... And even for a lot of Christians that is not true neither. Many Christians are only Christians because they fear eternal damnation and hell.

That is besides the point. But even there you are wrong. All believers hope in God, whether it is from fear or from love.


Next to that : even for that joy and happiness there is no support

Only for those who haven't experienced it.


: it is what you BELIEVE.


And that is wrong why?


But nobody ever has been able to provide objective supporting evidence for that CLAIM of joy and happiness,

Because this is subjective. It is experienced personally.


or that presence of God, or even the existence of God !

I've provided objective evidence. That you haven't accepted is another question all together. As the saying goes, "for some no evidence is necessary, for others no evidence is ever enough."


I really don't mind that you BELIEVE that,

Yes you do. Your messages are ample evidence of your objection to our Christian beliefs.


but you seem unable to understand that there is/could be a huge difference between your religious beliefs and reality.

You seem unable to grasp that there is/could be a huge difference between your beliefs and reality.


The point here is : are you not forgetting the possibility that you may be deceiving yourself with these religious claims?

A loaded question. You answer it first. Are you not forgetting the possibility that you may be deceiving yourself with your anti-religious claims?


They may be wrong, they may be right, but there is no objective supporting evidence for any of them!

You seem to be of the type that believes if you repeat a falsehood enough, everyone will believe you. I believe Hitler popularized that tactic.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
Joseph Goebells
Joseph Goebbels quotes (http://thinkexist.com/quotation/-if_you_tell_a_lie_big_enough_and_keep_repeating/345877.html)

Unfortunately for you, this isn't true. We have provided ample objective evidence. It is you who have provided nothing but subjective denials of the evidence.


May I suggest that if you want to continue on this, that you open up a new lead, so that we do not interfere with the discussion by achampio21 here?


Good idea! You might want to consider that before you derail any other threads in the future.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Good idea! You might want to consider that before you derail any other threads in the future.
Now that is a nice example of a Joseph Goebell's twisting of words.
I suggest something positive, and you turn that into a reprimand, in which you as primary cause of that possible "derailment" blame me, while completing bypassing your own major part in the same...

Rather hypocrite and dishonest, don't you agree ?

;)

Now that is a nice example of a Joseph Goebell's twisting of words.
I suggest something positive, and you turn that into a reprimand, in which you as primary cause of that possible "derailment" blame me, while completing bypassing your own major part in the same ...

Rather hypocrite and dishonest, don't you agree ?

;)

No. I've seen forums shut down before by trolls with an agenda. They, like you, take advantage of the fact that most people are peaceable. So, they take every opportunity to attack their beliefs, belittle their ideas and in every way harrass them. Eventually, decent people quit participating.

As for me. I go along with the program. I normally answer the question or join the discussion on topic. However, when someone like you disrupts the program, I give as good as I get.

Again, take your own advice, get on topic.

No. I've seen forums shut down before by trolls with an agenda. They, like you, take advantage of the fact that most people are peaceable. So, they take every opportunity to attack their beliefs, belittle their ideas and in every way harrass them. Eventually, decent people quit participating. As for me. I go along with the program. I normally answer the question or join the discussion on topic. However, when someone like you disrupts the program, I give as good as I get. Again, take your own advice, get on topic.
I just repeat my previous post :

Now that is a nice example of a Joseph Goebell's twisting of words.
I suggest something positive, and you turn that into a reprimand, in which you as primary cause of that possible "derailment" blame me, while completing bypassing your own major part in the same...

Rather hypocrite and dishonest, don't you agree ?

I just repeat my previous post :

Now that is a nice example of a Joseph Goebell's twisting of words.
I suggest something positive, and you turn that into a reprimand, in which you as primary cause of that possible "derailment" blame me, while completing bypassing your own major part in the same ...

Rather hypocrite and dishonest, don't you agree ?

You've just provided more proof of what I said, you think that by repeating a lie long enough people will begin to believe it.

You've just provided more proof of what I said, you think that by repeating a lie long enough people will begin to believe it.
I just repeat my previous post :

Now that is a nice example of a Joseph Goebell's twisting of words.
I suggest something positive, and you turn that into a reprimand, in which you as primary cause of that possible "derailment" blame me, while completing bypassing your own major part in the same...

Rather hypocrite and dishonest, don't you agree ?

Are you two really still going at it?

Wow.

Hey just so you know I pretty much got my question answered a long time ago.

But you two have fun. It's kind of interesting to read the different points you both point out.

May I remind both sides, this is not the Christian thread, it is in a religious discussion area, and as such there is more room to be open on comments as long as they are not overly offensive or attacking a member directly. So for the christian posters, non christians have a right to their beleifs ( even if you believe ** yes I used your word Crev) that they are not correct. In this type of forum, those of Islam, those of vodoo or the cookie monster religion all have equal rights to their view.

I may suggest that you cut and paste the other persons questions less, and merely give you ideas and opinons on the subject to give less since that you are personally attacking or going at a general poster, and give more general answers to the basic subject line.

Champ here is a site that may provide the answers to some "Christian questions" you have.
BIBLE STUDY MANUALS (http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/start.htm)

Are you two really still going at it? Wow. Hey just so you know I pretty much got my question answered a long time ago. But you two have fun. It's kind of interesting to read the different points you both point out.
Ok, champ! Only problem is that De Maria seems to have too much of time at his/her hands with all these long drawn out lines of comment, while I have a real off-line life to live also!

:)

[QUOTE=Credendovidis]Jesushelper76's view on this is a reply from a Christian perspective , and is based on - as he confirms himself - his Christian belief.

The non-religious facts?? Are that Jesus's origins are highly questionable, with his father being claimed to be the Christian god, and his mother being a "virgin" till his own birth, his many "miracles"performed during his life, and his disappearance to heaven after death. And not one single iota of supported evidence for any of all these claims exists.

Hey Credo those are your BELIEFS Not Facts. You believe jesus did not ascend into heaven and you believe Christianity is not Truth. Again those are YOUR BELIEFS. You have no 100% evidence to prove that Jesus did not ascend into heaven but you believe it anyway. Which means your beliefs are not based on any factual evidence but rather are based on FAITH. So the bottom line is Christians have believe that Jesus ascended into heaven by Faith and YOU believe he didn't BY FAITH.


I respect what people believe in. However, belief is no objective support for any of the many claims on which Jesus' features and heritage are based.

Do you have any objective evidence to prove otherwise?



The question was : "Where did his (Jesus) body go?"
The answer to that question can only be : "I believe that Jesus body ........" (and fill in whatever you believe).
If achampio21 expects some detailed information on a location, supported by some objective evidence, he is asking for the impossible.
:)

Good, I am glad you realise that your opinion and BELIEFS are just as much base on faith as any Christian's.

[QUOTE]That excludes a lot of people... And even for a lot of Christians that is not true neither. [B]Many Christians are only Christians because they fear eternal damnation and hell.

Do you have any subjective data or statistics to prove this claim? Or is this just your BELIEF?



Next to that : even for that joy and happiness there is no support : it is what you BELIEVE. But nobody ever has been able to provide objective supporting evidence for that CLAIM of joy and happiness, or that presence of God, or even the existence of God !
I really don't mind that you BELIEVE that, but you seem unable to understand that there is/could be a huge difference between your religious beliefs and reality.
The point here is : are you not forgetting the possibility that you may be deceiving yourself with these religious claims? They may be wrong, they may be right, but there is no objective supporting evidence for any of them!

Lol Credo, for someone who has said quite are large amount of unsupported claims, you sure do have a lot of nerve for asking people to provide objective evidence. What objective evidence have you provided us for your beliefs? You keep saying "objective evidence......." yet you done nothing but make unsupported claims.
If you believe there is no God and Jesus never died and rose again that is your BELIEF based on FAITH not facts. ;)

Thank you tawnynkids! I love the sites all of you give me. They all have different ways of explaining things!!

And to the rest of you... I am a very unserious person (if that isn't a word I made it one for now) and I don't want anyone getting flamed on my behalf or anything. I just had some questions and I knew that the awesome people on this site would answer them for me or at least try too! So thank you to EVERYONE even if you were being sarcastic towards me or thought I was a blatant idiot. I enjoy this site and I kind of in a weird way feel like everyone here is a "friend" and the best part is I don't have to worry about any of you showing up at my doorstep hoping for a place to crash!! LOL!!

But I also know that people believe very hard core in their own beliefs and take them VERY seriiously which is pretty cool. And I would defend my own beliefs to the death no matter what too. So I guess all I am saying is paly fair, be nice, and have fun. But remember that you may feel very strongly about something but someone out there feels very strongly about something too!! And I wouldn't take things personal. I mean after all no one on this site really knows everything about everyone. So you may be "attacking" someone that just had a serious issue in their life and you don't even know it.

But thanks again everyone! And keep teaching me! I love learning!! Even if I do look like an idiot when it's all over with!! :) LOL!!

Just one more thing...

I looked up the definitions to the words belief and faith and here is what I discovered...

Faith can refer to a religion, or to belief in one or more deities. It has two general implications which can be implied either exclusively or mutually:
To trust:
Believing a certain variable will act or has the potential to act a specific way despite the potential influence and probability of known or unknown change.
To have faith that one's spouse will keep a promise or commitment.
To have faith that the world will someday be peaceful.
To have faith that a person will pay you back.
To have faith in one's full dependence on the will of supernatural forces or deities.
To believe without reason:
Believing impulsively, or believing based upon social traditions or personal hopes.
In either case, faith is based upon the interpretation of the intangible (feelings, emotions, etc.) instead of the physically tangible and is primarily associated with religion in modern times.

Belief is the psychological state in which an individual is convinced of the truth or validity of a proposition or premise (argument). Belief does not necessarily confer the ability to adequately prove one's main contention to other people, who may disagree.

So I guess my point is this. It doesn't matter what you believe in. And you DON'T have to PROVE anything about that belief to ANYBODY. You know why? Because it really only matters to YOU if the cookie monster is real or God is real. And if someone else doesn't believe they are real, they don't HAVE to PROVE why they aren't real. Because it really only matters to them. When the end of your life comes and you believe in the tooth fairy it really only matters to you if she is going to take you to her tooth mansion in the sky or if this person that believes in God is going to be taken to Heaven. Because the only person that is going to know what happens is YOU! So you see, belief and faith don't need proof. Because no matter what someone will ALWAYS question those facts or opinions or whatever. SO my response would be this...

I don't agree with what you believe in, I believe this way.
And the other person should be like okay.

BUT on the other hand... arguing is fun sometimes too when it is harmless. AND it IS an awesome stress reliever!! :) :)

Are you two really still going at it?

Wow.
Pretty amazing, isn't it. I wonder what makes it it worth the trouble?

Hey Credo those are your BELIEFS Not Facts. You believe jesus did not ascend into heaven and you believe Christianity is not Truth. Again those are YOUR BELIEFS. You have no 100% evidence to prove that Jesus did not ascend into heaven but you believe it anyway. Which means your beliefs are not based on any factual evidence but rather are based on FAITH. So the bottom line is Christians have believe that Jesus ascended into heaven by Faith and YOU believe he didnt BY FAITH.
All what I stated refer to unsupported religious claims.

There is no objective supported evidence for the claim that "jesus did ascend into heaven.
There is no objective supported evidence for the claim that "Christianity is true".

I do not have to provide proof for the (negative) claim that "Jesus did not ascend into heaven". The burden of proof is on the (positive) claim that "Jesus did ascend into heaven".

You seem to need a course in logical thinking.

Ciao !

Closed by OP's request as this has drift completely away from the original point.

Question Closed