I have no religion yet and I am 15. My parents decided when I was born to let me pick my own religion but I can't decide. Is it possible for me to go to hell because I don't have a religion? I believe in god and everything but it seems every time I start to learn something about a religion it either scares me or I disagree with something. I feel so confused.

Hell doesn't exist.

Well, hell is something that some religions believe in. Other religions don't believe in hell.

Why choose a religion?

You believe in God, that is enough. Do right in the world and that is all that is needed. All these organized religions who preach about xyz are wrong in that sense.

There are how many religions out there? They can't all be right.

The Captain speaks correctly. Don't beat yourself up over it, you do not have to be a devout anyhting. Agnostic is a perfectly sound way to go through life:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic

I was raised in several foster homes, and experienced several different faiths. Then I tried several religions as a young adult too. I'm now an agnostic. Whatever religion or lack of religion you decide upon, don't let anyone rush you or tell you what is best. Do whatever you feel comfortable with and don't feel guilty about it.

I was raised Protestant Christian. Eventually, I got to the point where I needed to question why I believed what I did... and I did. Now, I serve no religion. Religion is a man made ideology that is useless, in my opinion.

My advice... go out there and learn. If you are interested in it, study every religion and faith you can get your hands on. Take from them what you believe to be true. Every religion and faith has a bit of truth in it, hidden underneath the propaganda that the human race has created over thousands of years.

You will find your way.

Well sorry to ring the moral bell here but it really does not matter if you believe in heaven or hell, they exist, if you don't believe, it is still there.

In general it is not religion that saves you, often your religion will get in your way. For a person to find their faith they need to study and this I will agree not merely accept what others say.

And next of course you will disagree with many things in religion, if it merely told you what you wanted to hear, then you are merely creating a religion to please yourself. There are plenty of those out there if you want one of them. They do you little good, but they can make you feel good about yourself, no matter how you wish to live.

Religion sets rules and standards, that we of course may not always want to live by. In that it sets clear standards of morals and gives proper methods of living and interacting with others.

As you go through your journey through life always remember to be a good human being! Be true to the God that you understand and keep your mind open to what he reveals to you,no man can tell you what to believe,but it is very important that you do believe!:cool:

Well sorry to ring the moral bell here but it really does not matter if you believe in heaven or hell, they exist, if you don't beleive, it is still there.

That statement is so flawed Fr Chuck. From that statement, you are saying that the Jewish religion has gotten it all wrong. Jews don’t believe in hell.

And you made my point. Organized religions do differ from Christians to Jews to Islam to etc. No one knows which one is really right. Although there will be some people who believe that their way is the right way.

Well sorry to ring the moral bell here but it really does not matter if you believe in heaven or hell, they exist, if you don't beleive, it is still there.

That statement is so flawed Fr Chuck.


I think where many of us will butt heads is in defining the undefinable. First, we have to understand what Heaven and Hell are. Im sure all of us will have a different idea of this.

I actually agree with Chuck here. I feel that no matter what, Heaven and Hell still exist... However, I am 99% positive that Chuck will not agree with my belief in what Heaven is and what Hell is.

We have to understand that the Bible was written thousands of years ago and has been translated through different languages. Imagine what has happened to the literal meaning of things therein. In a language that only consisted of what? 13 letters? How could a man describe such things? These things were then translated into other languages with other mens interpritations. How did they know what words to use to describe such a thing?

What's the Hebrew word for Internet? Hmmm... I'll bet there isn't one. But if, by some way, Peter had a revelation of the Internet, and tried to describe it in the Bible, we would have NO IDEA that he was actually talking about THE INTERNET!

Animeluver06, this thread is going to confuse you even more. While it is interesting to hear the different views, you being so young, really need to search what or who you want to believe in. I agree with maybe one point to every post that came up:


There are how many religions out there? They can’t all be right.

This is true, I believe is can only be one absolute.


Don't beat yourself up over it


Be true to the God that you understand and keep your mind open to what he reveals to you,no man can tell you what to believe,but it is very important that you do believe!

If you worry too much about it you'll drive yourself crazy. Keep in mind that there must be a God out there. He will reveal Himself to you. Just be willing to listen.


Whatever religion or lack of religion you decide upon, don't let anyone rush you or tell you what is best.

You need to search this out yourself.


Well sorry to ring the moral bell here but it really does not matter if you believe in heaven or hell, they exist, if you don't believe, it is still there.

In general it is not religion that saves you, often your religion will get in your way. For a person to find their faith they need to study and this I will agree not merely accept what others say.

And next of course you will disagree with many things in religion, if it merely told you what you wanted to hear, then you are merely creating a religion to please yourself. There are plenty of those out there if you want one of them. They do you little good, but they can make you feel good about yourself, no matter how you wish to live.


Sometimes people focus so much on what there religion's traditions are they miss what the real message is.

Sorry guys for cutting a pasting your quotes but I needed to to make my point. Hopefully this doesn't confuse him even more.

Bottom line, search it out and study it to find it. It is definitely worth it.

Sometimes people focus so much on what there religion's traditions are they miss what the real message is.


Yes!!

I agree with that totally. :)



Sorry guys for cutting a pasting your quotes but I needed to to make my point. Hopefully this doesn't confuse him even more.


Ahh, its okay. I don't think we are going to shoot you over it.

Jews don't believe in hell.



Yep that's true Jews don't have a hell... one of the things I really like about us. ;)


I don't understand this... how is it that Jews do not believe in Hell? It IS written in the Old Testament?

(sorry if this portrays a severe lack of intelligence on my part when it comes to this matter... but my understanding was that Jews are followers of the Old Testament... and I KNOW that "Hell" is mentioned there..? )

I dont understand this... how is it that Jews do not belive in Hell?? It IS written in the Old Testament??

(sorry if this portrays a severe lack of intelligence on my part when it comes to this matter.... but my understanding was that Jews are followers of the Old Testament... and I KNOW that "Hell" is mentioned there.....????)

No actually hell it not mentioned in the Torah. A land of the dead called Shaol is mentioned, where people go when they die, basically as sort of a "holding place" while they wait for the Messiah. But it's not a place of punishment and suffering; more like a kind of limbo or a spirit realm. According to archaeologists, it's supposed to be a carry over from the Hebrew people's tribal ancestry (the belief is common among ancient tribes throughout the world). I think Christians interpret this in-between place as hell, probably because there's lots of mention of hell in the New Testament, and Greeks, who St. Paul was influenced by, had a belief in Hell (Hades). But Jews have never thought of it as hell, even as far back as Maimonides, Rashi and Rabbi Akiba, Jewish scholars have never interpeted that way.

It's also kind of interesting that Jews don't consider the Old Testament all one book, in the sense of, every part of the Old Testament being as important as another. The Torah actually only consists of the first 5 books of the Old Testament, and the Torah is the highest in the "hierarchy". The psalms, proverbs, writings of the prophets, etc, are still somewhat important, but are considered lesser books. Much of the Jewish faith is based solely on the Torah (first 5 books) and the Talmud (the commentary on the Torah).

Oh by the way I'll see if I can find a good rabbinical explanation for you, too... online somewhere. I'm kind of rusty on all the details and don't consider myself a scholar at all!!

That is interesting... what, then, happens to sinners once the Messiah comes?

Well when Moschiach (the Messiah) comes, he is supposed to change the world so that it is a perfect place, a kind of Utopia. Then I guess everyone will live together in this perfect world... "The World To Come" is what Hasidic Jews call it. I'm not sure what happens to really bad people, such as a Hitler or an Idi Amin, but my biological mom used to say that those people simply cease to exist, and have no descendents. I think that's why some Hasidic Jews say "may his name be erased" right after they say the name of someone like Hitler.

Anyway sorry I can't elaborate anymore than that. I'm still going to look up a website for you. :)

The other thing to remember too is that within Judaism there are LOTS of different groups, just like Christianity. So some Jews might disagree with what I've said, believe differently, etc... but I'm pretty sure none of us believe in hell. ;)

No problem at all... sorry to go off topic a little here but that IS fascinating!! I have never heard of that before. The closest I have come to learning the Jewish faith was from Masionic (?) Jews or "Jews for Jesus"... you know, the people of the Jewish faith that believed Jesus was the Mesiah. My ex-girlfriends family followed this.

I never gave a lot of credit to this because they followed a lot of the old traditions of the Jews but still believed Jesus was the Messiah... even though Jesus disspelled some of the old beliefs.

If you can even just give me a good website resource, I would be more than thankful!

I found something at wikipedia that is an explanation of the Jewish concept of sin, which might be interesting to you, and might explain a bit about the hell discussion. Incidentally, Jews don't believe in Original Sin, either. The belief is that the soul is born pure, with inclinations to good and evil. So you aren't born a sinner exactly. Anyway here's the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin#Jewish_views_of_sin

no problem at all... sorry to go off topic a little here but that IS fascinating!! I have never heard of that before. The closest I have come to learning the Jewish faith was from Masionic (?) Jews or "Jews for Jesus"... you know, the people of the Jewish faith that believed Jesus was the Mesiah. My ex-girlfriends family followed this.

Not meaning to offend anyone here, but most Jews consider Messianic Jews to not be Jews at all, but rather Christians "posing" as Jews. Jews generally have a very low opinion of them, and think they're deceiving people and "tricking" them into becoming Christians, especially immigrants from Russia, etc, who don't speak much English and are ignorant of Jewish customs. In fact there's even a Jewish retalitory group against the Messianics called "The Jews for Judaism". Personally though I don't care too much either way as I am an agnostic. :rolleyes: But I do understand the sentiment.


If you can even just give me a good website resource, I would be more than thankful!

Oh well yeah I can give you a good site... I think that will be easier for me, haha. :p Aish HaTorah is an Orthodox Jewish website, but it's very extensive and good. They also have an "Ask the Rabbi" feature, so you could post a question or search through previous questions. And they have free email courses that you can take on various aspects of Judaism. Torah.org is another good site where you can learn a lot through browsing and email courses. Hope that helps!

http://www.aish.com/

http://www.torah.org

This is interesting and I never knew this (or maybe just forgot). I am still a little fuzzy on what the Jews believe about where sinners (or Gentiles for that matter) are going? However, this may not be the thread for this discussion since animeluver06 is seeking a religion. This may just confuse him more, unless he is finding this interesting.

Yeah I think maybe in all fairness to animeluver, we should probably start a new thread. But to answer you question briefly, as far as I know Christians and any other religion for that matter are treated the same way as Jews... they don't receive any less "reward" for not being Jews. I guess that's why Jews don't actively try to convert others, because no one needs to be a Jew in order to be saved or whatever. Anyway, Orhtodox Jews talk about the "righteous gentiles", and basically all you need to be one, is to follow the last 7 of the 10 commandments. Gentiles don't have to follow the first 3, because those have to do with the Jewish G-d. Anyway I always thought it was a pretty good deal... gentiles only having to follow 7 commandments whereas Jews traditionally have to follow 613! Not fair! ;)

Awesome! Thanks for the info, orange... I would be interested in further discussion of his in another thread; however, I agree, we shouldn't have hijacked animeluvers thread... but it happens. Lol

ANIMELUVER... feel free to ask any more questions here... this is YOUR thread lol. We will, as always, do our best to help! :cool:

I have an idea... Why not try Jesus first? He'll probably honor your faith by giving you peace in troubled times when He hears your prayers, and keep you.. happy!

Orange I read all the posts about the differences in Jews and Christians and I am fasinated with what was posted by you. I would like to read more up on it. Anyway thank you for sharing all your thoughts on it.

Joe

Actually I found it interesting to read all of that. But I have to correct certain people on something. I am a her not a him. Lol.

Not to confuse, but the ancient book of the dead (Africa) has 41 commandments 10 of the original brought by Moses and 31 more.This book predates the bible by 2000 years.

These were not christians jews or muslims and they worshipped what would become egyptian deities then as now the holy men or priest used their religious power to keep control of the masses and to keep the wealth in their control. Just goes to show that some things never change

I have no religion yet and I am 15. My parents decided when i was born to let me pick my own religion but I can't decide. Is it possible for me to go to hell because I dont have a religion? I beleive in god and everything but it seems everytime I start to learn something about a religion it either scares me or I disagree with something. I feel so confused. :confused:

I'm a non practicing Roman Catholic. I recommend this religion 'cause it's very comfortable. According to Pope John Paulus the II, Hell and Heaven don't exist anymore in the sense of Life after Death. Furthermore God is a force that cares for the whole context of perfection in the Earth as a living planet and seems very improbable that he could occupy in problems of each individual. Therefore it might be worth to consider as sinn the destruction of the environment, then the punishment would be against the mankind as a species.
General christian trends are to see Jesus Christ as a god. He never intended that. If you want to be a christian just read "The Gospel According to Saint Mark" and maybe the one according to St Luke. NO MORE. Specially avoid to read Apocalypses for it seems absurd science fiction.
Greetings, Pinochio

I'm a non practicing Roman Catholic. I recommend this religion 'cause it's very comfortable. According to Pope John Paulus the II, Hell and Heaven don't exist anymore in the sense of Life after Death.

Catholics don't believe in heaven and hell? I always thought they were very strong believers in these. And purgatory, too.

Pay close attention to what Bishop Chuck said.
He has the experience, the wide field of knowledge, and the wisdom which all together males what he said of great value and IT IS the truth.
Some may not agree, but that does not change the fact that he speaks true.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

When I was a kid, it was, but in a declaration von Pope John Paul the II he describes the heaven as an aproaching to God and the Hell as a renunce of God. No mention about Purgatory I haven't heard long ago. But why to worry about? Be a good guy or a good girl and the judge you have inside of you will bring peace to your soul. Sinn means to cause physic or moral damage to others or to yourself and fail to do whatever you have to do. Avoid regret.
Look in the Google for DESIDERATA.

Purgatory is based on Holy Scripture. Thus...
I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

I have no religion yet and I am 15. My parents decided when i was born to let me pick my own religion but I can't decide. Is it possible for me to go to hell because I dont have a religion? I beleive in god and everything but it seems everytime I start to learn something about a religion it either scares me or I disagree with something. I feel so confused. :confused:




Confused about religion:- Age matters very little because religion is an issue that affects us all young middle aged and mature folks.

Don't think that you are alone, quite the contrary; although many refuse to admit it, most people are confused, especially when it comes to the subjects of heaven - hell - salvation etc.

First of all if, as you say, you have no religion then you have no hell, so whether you will go to hell or not is immaterial, if you don’t believe in it, then you have no problem. If you have rigid belief in hell even if you don’t have a religion then you will make your own hell while you continue to worry about this issue. It is easy for people to make their own hell on earth with self doubts and constant self questioning and worrying.

Rather than worrying and wondering and asking every Tom **** and Harry who will give reams of bible quotes which don’t amount to a hill of beans, do your own research. Taste, study and test different religions to see which one fills your spiritual needs.

When you ask this type of question in a public forum such as this one you will get two types of answers:


1 Agnostics or Atheists whose spiritual search have led them nowhere and thus have no spiritual guidance to fill their needs. No matter how much they negate and deny they DO have spiritual need which is a generic need in every human being – the need to believe in something to make life worth living; to soothe the bad times and to rejoice in the good times.

2 Overly enthusiastic words usually written by fervent Christians who will discharge an enormous amount of scriptures from bible pages. This excessive font of words will do two things… bore you to tears and confuse you even more.


Then there will be the third type of answer, and that is to do your own search and to reach your own conclusions so that YOU will be satisfied. Now the question is how to do this. and that, my young friend, is not an easy task. I cannot tell you what to do but I can tell you what I did when I was searching for those answers. I studied different religions, tasted some by going to different churches, synagogues and temples. I did NOT listen to those who wished to convert me to their way of thinking and their religion and above all I did NOT listen to those who claimed that their religion was THE ONE AND ONLY TRYE ONE and all others were doomed and of no value. I can’t say that I have found ALL the answers but I have found what quenches my spiritual thirst.

Here are a few sites that might help you.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/

http://www.northernway.org/pagandna.html

http://www.pantheism.net/

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/religion/

Irulan,

Your answer was excellent. I just wanted to comment on one point you made:

Agnostics or Atheists whose spiritual search have led them nowhere and thus have no spiritual guidance to fill their needs. No matter how much they negate and deny they DO have spiritual need which is a generic need in every human being – the need to believe in something to make life worth living; to soothe the bad times and to rejoice in the good times.
This may completely shock you but some people do not have any needs that require spiritual guidance, no "generic need in every human being", no "need to believe in something to make life worth living". Life is worth living for itself, some of us can soothe ourselves in bad times and rejoice with our friends and family in good times.

Irulan,

Your answer was excellent. I just wanted to comment on one point you made:

This may completely shock you but some people do not have any needs that require spiritual guidance, no "generic need in every human being", no "need to believe in something to make life worth living". Life is worth living for itself, some of us can soothe ourselves in bad times and rejoice with our friends and family in good times.

NeedK

Thanks for the comment and be assured that I am not shocked at all. LOL! I agree that life is worth living all by itself but you can't argue with the fact that some people do have more spiritual needs than others.

Take for example your screen name NeedKarma - this indicates that you know Karmic Law - What we do to others returns to us thricefold. Is this not a spiritual belief which stems from a need?

It might... but this can alos happen without the need for a deity. You could play with semantics and call everything a need. I just believe in the Golden Rule which trancends any specific religion... oh yea, and I hope that bad things happen to bad people, is that wrong? :D

Okay man, You want to be a Christain, I promise you this is what you want. I promise I promise I promise. Okay you know there are a freaking ton loads of religion out there right. Okay now to narrow it down to one for you. All the religions are what man said or man made up right, if you didn't know that now you do. Christainaty is the only one with the bible and its all GODS words, it's the word of GOD. I don't now if you think about death or not. But it used to scare me, cause you think about it and you just die and waste away in the ground, and life goes on. No that's not the case. Heaven and Hell are very Very very real. If you want some more reasons you can email me at [email protected] I will give you all the reasons if you want me to. And questions you have I will answer them.

I just noticed this thread and frankly I am both thrilled and appalled by some of the posts here. The posts by Irulan and Orange were especially intelligent and thoughtful.


Christainaty is the only one with the bible and its all GODS words, its the word of GOD.

Excuse me, but both the New Testament and the Koran start with the Old Testament, what the Jewish religion calls The Bible.

As to Heaven and Hell being very real as Boswee and Fr Chuck claim. I would like to know how you know that. Have you been there? Have you spoken to anyone who has been there? The fact is you BELIEVE they exist based on your faith in words that were written down by men purporting to be the "Word of God". You are entitled to your beliefs and what you believe in may be true. But to express them as irrefutable fact is just wrong.

But Chuck does make a very good point about religion setting rules and standards. The Ten Commandments form the basis of what is called the Judeo-Christian ethic. But it doesn't require belief in God, the rewards (or punishments) of an after-life or practice of any religion to be a moral and ethical person.

In my belief organized religion is a crutch used by man to explain things that nothing else can explain. Many religions exist mostly as a framework to ensure moral and ethical behavior by the carrot/stick method of the promise of an after-life. Its one of the reasons that, even though I don't consider myself a religious person, I do consider myself a Jew because that approach is not really used in Judiasm.

Finally to animeluver,
I would not be concerned about whether you practice a specific religion or not. Instead, concern yourself with being a loving, generous and moral person. If you do that, you will be happy with yourself and that's what's most important.

Irulan,

I’m sorry, but I must take exception to several things you said

I’ll quote you, “although many refuse to admit it, most people are confused, especially when it comes to the subjects of heaven - hell - salvation etc.”
Relatively you might be right about the “most” but about 2 billion people believe in the existence of those.

Another quote of yours, “reams of bible quotes which don’t amount to a hill of beans”. Those Holy Scripture passages are far more that a “hill of beans” to those who hold them sacred and that is not limited to just Christians and Jews, even the Dali Lama claimed that the bible is sacred.

You are quoted un all of the following……
“do your own research” What make you think I have not? I have visited many different religious services and found them interesting.”
I have studied many via several different means including publications, history, classes, discussions, and experience.

“Overly enthusiastic words usually written by fervent Christians who will discharge an enormous amount of scriptures from bible pages. This excessive font of words will do two things… bore you to tears and confuse you even more.”
It will if your mind is turned off from concentrating on the seriousness of the scripture being offered. There are many millions of people who are not confused. If you are that is sad.


“I did NOT listen to those who wished to convert me to their way of thinking and their religion and above all I did NOT listen to those who claimed that their religion was THE ONE AND ONLY TRYE ONE and all others were doomed and of no value. I can’t say that I have found ALL the answers but I have found what quenches my spiritual thirst.”

And there in dwells your problem. You DID NOT listen. As a result you did not seek the answers as to why they made such claims. After enough through questioning to find the answers to those claims (some people have hard time verbalizing why they make them so other research is necessary), then you can comfortably accept or reject them, but you will understand them far better and in that IS great spiritual value.

Thank you for that post. It is very interesting, but I fear not in the manner you intended.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

And there in dwells your problem. You DID NOT listen. As a result you did not seek the answers as to why they made such claims. After enough through questioning to find the answers to those claims (some people have hard time verbalizing why they make them so other research is necessary), then you can comfortably accept or reject them, but you will understand them far better and in that IS great spiritual value.

Would you listen attentively to claims that dispell/disprove your belief?

I can’t say that I have found ALL the answers but I have found what quenches my spiritual thirst.”

And therein dwells your problem. You have quenched YOUR spirtual thirst. And for that I am truly and sincerely glad for you. But you are making the assumption that there are people who need their spirtual thirst quenched. You are making the assumption that other's spirtual thirst cannot be quenched with a different drink.

To say that the faith you believe in is the one and only truth (which is what you said originally) is chauvinistic and biased.

NeedKarma,
I have done so attentively, and I will continue to do so. I am always interested in the other's point of view.
It is a good way to learn about other's beliefs and to review the validity and value on one's own belief.
To not do so is to close one's mind to understanding other people and therein lays a great problem with humanity as to why we cannot get along well with those of another faith, or culture, or set of ideas and ideals
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

The difficulty with religious discussions such as in this thread is that you have two groups of people: those who believe that the Bible is the written word of G-d, and those who do not. The believers make the assumption that everyone else believes (or should believe), and base all their arguments on that "fact". Unfortunately, people who don't believe the Bible is G-d's word are never going to be convinced by the reciting of scriptures that they don't think are divinely inspired. If someone quoted the Bagavadgita (Hindu Holy Scriptures) instead of the Christian Bible and expected everyone to "just believe" it was the word of G-d with no questions, that person would get laughed off the forum. Since I am neither Christian nor Hindu I take the same view of both. There's no difference to me.

Personally I am interested to hear all points of view, but it would be refreshing to have someone who believes in the Bible tell me WHY they believe it's the word of G-d, without quoting scriptures.

orange,
I quote you, "it would be refreshing to have someone who believes in the Bible tell me WHY they believe it's the word of G-d, without quoting scriptures." That is a very interesting desire.
It would make a marvelous thread, I think.
In my case I believe that the Bible "contains" the word of God as written by those who understood the inspiration form the level of knowledge, understanding, and culture at the time it was written.

I believe it as such because I have used it as such and in doing so it has personally in many way proven to me to my satisfaction that it does contains the word of God.

But I must keep in mind what it meant to the inspired author and then apply that to me in this day and age.
I could go on at length about there various teaching in the Bible. But space is limited and at present so is my time.
I hope that helps and is of value to you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Irulan,

I’m sorry, but I must take exception to several things you said

I’ll quote you, “although many refuse to admit it, most people are confused, especially when it comes to the subjects of heaven - hell - salvation etc.”
Relatively you might be right about the “most” but about 2 billion people believe in the existence of those.

Another quote of yours, “reams of bible quotes which don’t amount to a hill of beans”. Those Holy Scripture passages are far more that a “hill of beans” to those who hold them sacred and that is not limited to just Christians and Jews, even the Dali Lama claimed that the bible is sacred.

You are quoted un all of the following……
“do your own research” What make you think I have not? I have visited many different religious services and found them interesting.”
I have studied many via several different means including publications, history, classes, discussions, and experience.

“Overly enthusiastic words usually written by fervent Christians who will discharge an enormous amount of scriptures from bible pages. This excessive font of words will do two things… bore you to tears and confuse you even more.”
It will if your mind is turned off from concentrating on the seriousness of the scripture being offered. There are many millions of people who are not confused. If you are that is sad.


“I did NOT listen to those who wished to convert me to their way of thinking and their religion and above all I did NOT listen to those who claimed that their religion was THE ONE AND ONLY TRYE ONE and all others were doomed and of no value. I can’t say that I have found ALL the answers but I have found what quenches my spiritual thirst.”

And there in dwells your problem. You DID NOT listen. As a result you did not seek the answers as to why they made such claims. After enough through questioning to find the answers to those claims (some people have hard time verbalizing why they make them so other research is necessary), then you can comfortably accept or reject them, but you will understand them far better and in that IS great spiritual value.

Thank you for that post. It is very interesting, but I fear not in the manner you intended.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)


Arcura,

You quench your spiritual needs your way, and I do the same.

You may take umbrage to whatever you wish in my words. We all have preferences, mine are what they are, mine. My choices have been made based upon my needs, not yours.

I have no difficulty with you expressing yourself as you wish, so kindly extend the same courtesy to me as well as others. People DO have the freedom to choose whatever they feel is right for them therefore accept that fact without chagrin, it is a fact of life.

“ there in dwells your problem” Problem? I have no problem with my choices, they are, after all mine to make and no amount of proselytizing will persuade me in altering my choices or my opinions.

Now as to your comment …. “ not in the manner you intended ” …. you are being quite presumptuous in telling me what what I mean to say - that is not your call but mine. Neither you nor your beliefs have any bearing on my words or my intentions.

Don’t bother to attempt to electrify me with the scriptures, they are evidently important to you, they are not to me so don’t waste your time sermonizing to me about scriptures or biblical issues, am not in the least interested. I can see that you are trying to be kind and to “spread the good word” so to speak, but spread them to another person where they will be appreciated.

" To say that the faith you believe in is the one and only truth (which is what you said originally) is chauvinistic and biased. "

Thanks Scott, this is exactly what I believe. This religious exclusivity is extremely biased because it pushes aside any other path to spiritual fullfillment.

The difficulty with religious discussions such as in this thread is that you have two groups of people: those who believe that the Bible is the written word of G-d, and those who do not. The believers make the assumption that everyone else believes (or should believe), and base all their arguments on that "fact". Unfortunately, people who don't believe the Bible is G-d's word are never going to be convinced by the reciting of scriptures that they don't think are divinely inspired. If someone quoted the Bagavadgita (Hindu Holy Scriptures) instead of the Christian Bible and expected everyone to "just believe" it was the word of G-d with no questions, that person would get laughed off the forum. Since I am neither Christian nor Hindu I take the same view of both. There's no difference to me.



Orange, I agree with you about the two groups of people. I somewhat agree with you on the reciting scripture part. Scripture does hold some power behind it. I think it is how it is presented. Of course, you (meaning anyone) do have your free will to accept it or deny it. I have seen where scripture alone has brought someone to believe. Beating someone over the head with the Word is not the answer I do agree. Presenting in such a way that is non-threatening and inviting is the way to go. But I also feel I don't have to prove God, he is powerful enough to do it by Himself. My obligation is to try not to turn someone off so that they won't believe in Him.

I have watched a lot of how these types of threads end up going. I am also learning how people are responding to the threads as to what they believe or don't believe. That allows me to bring my point across hopefully without turning someone off or even making the discussion a horrible debate.

There is a heaven and a hell and for you to be a believer of GOD u have to believe of the two. As far as which religion to choose I really don't know,just being a good person dosen't save u. do you believe Jesus died for u, was buried and was raised Easter Sunday. If you do u shall be saved. But to stay on this path you must surround yourself around other believers. I think it is great that you are thinking about all this at the age of 15. Life is not promise to none of us my brother died @18. Today I found out my uncle expired. Read the word of God and Pray and let the LORD lead you in the direction he wants you to go in.

Jduke,

You make a lot of really great points. That's interesting about the belief that scripture has power all on its own. That certainly helps to explain to me why people quote it so often. No one has ever given me that explanation before, so thanks for that! :)

"My obligation is to try not to turn someone off so that they won't believe in Him". That's a great statement too. I personally have been turned off by what a lot of people who claim to be Christians say and do. I'm so glad to meet a Christian who sees this as a valid thing to be concerned about.

And yeah the main reason for my post was that I think these debates generally go nowhere. People tend to stay in their own camps. But it's great when people can state and discuss their beliefs without being condescending, rude or insulting. Thanks so much for your post.

Orange, thanks for the comment. I am glad I brought some insight. It is really hard to put yourself aside to really hear what others are saying. This is why you rarely see me respond to these threads unless I feel there is another point that needs to be made.

I really hope that animeluver06 has found this thread informative. She hasn't responded in awhile.

ROLLINWJESUS,
I'm sorry that you have recently lost so loved ones.
You make some goof points, but...
A person can believe in God and not believe in heaven or hell. I know several people with that type belief.
But if you believe in the Bible as the word of God then you do automatically believe in heaven and hell. So yes there is great power in Holy Scripture, but leaving it sit on the shelf unstudied provides none of that power.
Also there is more to do than just believe in Jesus and that he died and rose from the grave to be saved. Why and who for he did that is necessary. Also a person must have a working, not a dead, faith in what Jesus did and what He commanded us to do as His followers.
Also never forget what he said about forgiveness, those who forgive will be forgiven. That means that those who do not forgive will not be forgiven.
Only the forgiven go to heaven! So study the other things Jesus said to do to be saved. That is very important.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I think animeluver06 left 3 weeks. Ago. I now we are up to at least Junior stage?

Orange: I must quote you. "I personally have been turned off by what a lot of people who claim to be Christians do."
First I would like to know what that is because perhaps your knowledge of impressionable Christian people was not available to you thus far. Christians have bad habits & bondages sometimes just like everyone else. It doesn't make them any less loved by God. When one is born again, God deposits in one's spirit a seed of His glory that is intended to grow and mature throughout their Christian walk.( Example1.- cursing) I'm convicted in my spirit down to saying," Stop cussing!
Now there are perhaps many "carnal" Christians. That is the 2nd level which is a stage up from someone whois at level 1- the basic title of Christian b/c he was born one & has just believed in God for yrs., perhaps forgot about Him at times, but at this stage they are only Christians & not born again into Jesus.
At the carnal Christian level, level 2, one is washed by the blood of Jesus & all of his sin is erased by God, Jesus,& the Holy Spirit b/c God sent Jesus as the great Intercessor for us to pay the penalty for man's sin, & to save us from further sin. Now at this level a person is saved & he starts anew. God tells us that our past sins are erased from His memory. If this person devotes himself to mature in the Spirit he will come under conviction at this time to be sanctified & God will tell him to keep reading His Word regularly & before long this person may come under conviction in their spirit to overcome bondages & such of the flesh. If this person only stays a carnal Christian, by not reading the Bible or attending church, then this person does not grow in the Holy Spirit . Although he has salvation, he misses out on the abundant life do to lack of knowledge .
& he suffers the consequences still b/c he is unaware of what God wants from his people.
At the most desirable level is the Born-again Christian who makes an effort to inquire what the Lord would have him do, & how to be a good "saint" for God's Glory. At this stage it gets better.
Now man is made up of 1) spirit 2) soul<which includes the mind, will, & emotions> 3) the body or the flesh.
Before we are born again, our house is ruled by "self" & is considered dead spirit. When we ask that Jesus come into our lives to be Lord of our lives, we attest verbally*to God that we believe
Everything about Jesus's sacrifice.
Now the man that housed the dead spirit with self, this becomes replaced with an alive spirit, the born again spirit which is no longer controlled by self . Jesus replaces the self spirit. And note: Man's spirit can be only 3 things. Jesus-born again spirit;Self-dead spirit; or Satan-dead spirit.
Now we even are given the power unto ourselves & others to do good works because God tells us in His Book that this is in His plan. The spirit of a person is that eternal part of us that will continue on beyond the termination of our body's life( Ecclesiastes 12:7) The spirit stands for the highest elements of man by which we comprehend spiritual truths. Our spirit is the most powerful part of our being. It is the part that deals with right & wrong behavior.

When I was young Religion scared me because I would see maybe at the Port Authority in N.Y.C. in their restrooms, or actually in many public restrooms& trains I'd see some Jesus FANATIC doing writings & graffiti what seemed like crazy to me.

I think those images plus any fanatics I saw turned me off to the real Jesus.

I think the only way to be sure to get that born again spirit is to have a heart(which is considered where the spirit is housed) that is ready, willing, & able & humble to learn & start understanding the Lord. To go to a church & feel the anointing of the brothers ( & srs.) when they lay hands upon you for healing or even to get rid of the spirit of rejection or lust or anger, or withcraft. It is then when they are standing in prayer that one can feel the anointing as one nearly drops to the ground. I always was afraid I wouldn't be caught so I had to control a lot of that power.
And to someone's question about how do I know the Bible was given by inspiration of God. Because I heard the truths from a respected Theologian that I follow daily through his Programs. How he describes the history of the bible throughout the age, & I believe it. I trust what this Reverend says, & I'm just going to take his word for it. God told the Prophets & the Apostles what to speak & what to write.

He gives me beauty for ashes;
Strength for fear;
Gladness for mourning;
Peace for despair.

Love & peace

Look at it this way. If you are turned off by what Christians do, are you not also turned off by what others in all walks of life do?
Life is full of turn offs and turn ons in many aspects thereof.
If a person is going to not become a Christian because of what some Chrisitians do think of all the great many things a person can not become because of what some people in all those great many things do.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

If you are turned off by what Christians do, are you not also turned off by what others in all walks of life do?If you do not like broccoli then you must also not like all other vegetables. See how asinine that thinking is? No Fred, what bothers people isn't the fact that some people are Christians (or any religion or sect or denomination), what bothers people is the constant preaching and attempts at conversion and being told that what they believe is essentially wrong. No one here is trying to convert you so please don't do it to others. It's the same reason why people are annoyed at the mormons going door to door. Take the lead from your peers such as Rickj or Fr.Chuck who are devout in what they believe in but understand that one's beliefs are of a personal nature.

ACURA

I totally agree with you I came from the stand point of believing in the word of God(THE BIBLE) when it comes to believing in heaven and hell. When I said believing in Jesus I'm merely talking about the bases of being a believer. Next you need to be spiritually feed and that is from studying the word of God and teachings. I must put this out there everything you hear is not true some scriputures are taking out of context purposely,accidentally, etc. that's why you need to know the WORD. BIBLE sitting on the shelf,riding around in the car, no power.

This is essentially repeating what I have said before, but it bears repeating especially since its being ignored.

The one point I agree with Chuck on was that religion, any religion, provides a standard and framework of moral and ethical behavior. Most religions adhere to the same basic standard that has come to be known as the Judeo-Christian ethic.

Organized religion provides many things for the faithful. Some provide a punishment/reward system to ensure adherence to bahavioral standards. Others just try to promote the logical goodness. There may be other methods as well.

But what it boils down to is are you a good person. Are you honest, are you generous, do you help people ar abuse them? If you are a good person, then what you believe in terms of organized religion matters not a whit. It doesn't even matter that you believe.

One doesn't "need to be spiritually feed". Some do, some don't. I don't believe I need to be saved, nor do I want someone prostelytizing to me about it. If anyone wants to promote their religion by telling why it gives them comfort, ease, power, etc. That's fine. But don't start telling me that, if I don't follow your religion I will be damned or an bad or whatever.

This thread proves that people with disparate views about religion can discuss them politely and dispassionately. It also proves that some people can't, that they have this missionary complex that makes them feel their's is the only true way and they have to get everyone to see that.

Such people need to take a step back and realize that not everyone believes that same and that there is nothing wrong in that.

The bible has the answer you need. If you are interested in discussing this one on one (so as to eliminate all the background noise of those who reject the bible), please go to the website: www.oilandwineministries.org and hit the contact us button to send me an email. I will share what the bible says and you can either accept, reject, or question it.

Blessings,

Phil Debenham

I believe that religion is something made up so that people feel better about their delusions.
If you believe in god then you believe in a god that you and only you know about because if you believe in religion then you believe in somoene else's god
The only benefit of religion is organization and churches and places to worship
If you believe that your god wants you to worship in a specific way then chose the religion that fits that style of worship

I'm taking a psych class so the other day I was wondering:
If I were a psychologist and I had a patioent that told me that they believed in a god that they never saw or heard
How would I see that
I believe I would treat that as a delusion and medicate the patient

Another religion that is gaining popularity: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Believers around the world.
http://www.venganza.org/

Not all delusions need medical treatment. Personally, I tend to agree that belief in god to the extent that some religions do, is a delusion. But it's a benign one. It does harm to no one, unless that person tries to force their delusion on others.

Edit: Phil commented on the wrong post.

Another religion that is gaining popularity: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Believers around the world.
http://www.venganza.org/

NK,

Thank you for the link and the laughter.

Humor is a prized gift and those who lack it are sad indeed!

Poor Phil, no sense of humour. Sad.

Oh, but I do have a sense of humor... I laugh at myself for hitting the wrong button and responding to your post instead of the preceding one as I had intended. You will note that I went back and posted the same response to that post... which made since there, but didn't make since concerning your flying spaghetti post. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Oh I see. I guess the negative rep kind of did hurt my feelings. I'm only human. :)

No harm no foul then. Let's carry on.

I believe (and I have found that it (everything) is EASIER to believe)

This life is harder without a savior. Call it a crutch, (like my "stubborn husband" does) call it that, but it is really a hidden titanium spiritual rod that protects their body & soul from the negative. Now some people really believe but make all kinds of excuses why they can't & won't hear the word of the Lord. And as a
Christian I know that faith comes from hearing , & hearing the word of the Lord. Some people really do not want to go to church and get "saved" because now they will think they will have to continue going to church! But God is faithful. In His great plan, He knows who are His. And if they only continue reading faithful literature from time to time, hearing the Faithful ministers on TV or radio, & praying, then the timing is right or ripe for this person to be exactly where they are spiritually... for they are able to hear the Lord's voice speak to their heart through prayer for guidance & direction. For the record: Christians do HEAR the voice of Jesus & it is no delusion.There is softness in His still small voice which is never doubted for anything else but His. (ie: noise or hearing voices as in a psychosis) I can think of only one Prophet that actually SAW God. ISAIAH. but I'm not sure, so someone out there might help me out with that. Many in the Bible of course saw Jesus, and nowadays "we" have to wait till we are finished from this life to see Jesus again.

About how some Bibles sit on peoples shelves...
One good reason I see for that is that these individuals have no real source or teachers from which to be able to apply what they read,
For daily living & such.
The Bible Scripture is taken out of context to them, & they get confused.
Where Scriptures are the answers for that individual, that is the beauty of Religion, but they relly never feel it, & the Bible sits here & there.
One Pastor of a Church I attended for 6yrs before I moved had this very effect on my spirit. This man of God said in so many ways to the congregation that certain parts of the Scripture will stand out to you in your individual spirit & that was important , in how the Lord was especially letting you know or see something absolutely & positively written for YOU to see & or hear.

Christians do have an instruction from the Lord to" go & make disciples" in this world. That is why we are always prompted to do such.
Some people are stubborn & want to continue on with" their"will be done.
There is always hope for them where there is life. We pray for people like this, that's all that can be done.

Maybe I won't get to see my husband in the next life & maybe I will.. there's still work to be done, and done and dddone. But I'm happy with the thought that I will see my children there one day & others that have gone to "sleep" too.

Cheers!

This life is harder without a savior. Call it a crutch, (like my "stubborn husband" does) call it that, but it is really a hidden titanium spiritual rod that protects their body & soul from the negative.

In His great plan, He knows who are His.

For the record: Christians do HEAR the voice of Jesus & it is no delusion.

Christians do have an instruction from the Lord to" go & make disciples" in this world.

Some people are stubborn & want to continue on with" their"will be done. There is always hope for them where there is life. We pray for people like this, that's all that can be done.

Maybe I wont get to see my husband in the next life & maybe I will..there's still work to be done, and done and dddone. But I'm happy with the thought that I will see my children there one day & others that have gone to "sleep" too.

Cheers!

Life is harder for who? Sounds like you are proving what your husband feels. By using a savior as this spirtual protection, you are using a crutch. Maybe that works for you, but as long as you feel its right and necessary for everyone (as you notes seem to say), then that's wrong.

This is one of the main reasons for my beliefs. "In his great plan" Umm, what plan is that? The one that devastates this planet with a tsunami? Or the one that sets people against one another to maim and kill innocents? Or the one that causes the death of a seeming saint of a woman (Dana Reeve) is did nothing but good in this world? Or the one where father kill their babies by shaking them death? Or the one where priests abuse their powers by sexually abusing their parishioners? If your only answer is "god moves in mysterious ways", don't bother!

For the record, you may believe you hear God, but I don't see any proof, that its just simply your thoughts.

Yes, Christians are instructed to be missionaries. And what a great deal of harm has been done as a part of that instruction.

And, yet again, I say that this attitude that if one doesn't believe in this whole pearly gates rigamarole, then one will suffer eternal damnation is a crock. Its simply a scare tactic to keep people in the fold and get others to go along.

I think animeluver06 left 3 weeks. Ago. I now we are up to at least Junior stage?

No she's still around. She was online 2 days ago. She just isn't posting in this thread, but she has said that she enjoys everything that's been said here, so we're not doing her a disservice.


Orange: I must quote you. "I personally have been turned off by what a lot of people who claim to be Christians do."
First I would like to know what that is because perhaps your knowledge of impressionable Christian people was not available to you thus far.

Oh boy... long story. I have been around many different Christians in my life, both mainstream and fundamentalists. I was in several Christian foster homes, and went to a Catholic boarding school for several years. I also tried being a Christian as a young adult, for a while. The church I was in was pentecostal. I left it after a scandal in which the pastor was accused of stealing money from the church and being inappropriate with young girls. The church split, and half the people went with the pastor, and half formed their own church. I had friends on either side, but everyone expected me to choose a side. When I went to one side, the people on the other side, who used to be good friends, wouldn't speak to me anymore. I couldn't stand the hatred so I just left completely and have never gone back.

I could also give you many examples in my childhood where I was terrorized by Christian foster parents. Here's one: I was about 7 years old, and there was a visiting ministry pastor who said that because I was a shy and withdrawn child I had demons. So then a bunch of adults pinned me to the floor and they "prayed" over me (it was more like yelling and screaming). These parents also spanked me with a paddle practically every day, sometimes more than once a day. I have many more examples... it would take pages and pages to go into it all.

However, the incidents at the church and in my childhood is not what turned me off Christianity. I have enough insight to realize that there are good and bad people in every religion, and that these things could have happened to me in a Buddhist or Jewish foster home just as easily. No, what I meant when I said I am turned off is that I don't like fundamentalism. I mentioned Christians specifically, because jduke and I were discussing Christianity. It's not just fundamentalist Christians I don't like, Islamic fundamentalists, ultra Orthodox Jews, etc... to me they're all the same: preaching, the trying to convert others, ignorance and disrespect of other faiths and beliefs, judgemental attitudes and judgmental statements made. All fundamentalists turn me off. I believe that true Christians don't do this; that's why I said in my statement "people who claim to be Christians"... I have Christian friends who would never dream of saying the things that I've heard (or read, rather) on this forum. Some of the stuff said here really shocks and saddens me.

Actually I have a very good relationship with the Ukrainian Catholic nuns who taught me in my boarding school and basically raised me to be a responsible woman. They saved me from the fate of many of my foster siblings, who ended up on drugs, into prostitution, and even dead. They taught me so much, and yet they were always very respectful of the fact that my biological parents were Jews. They never tried to convince me to be a Catholic. As I was in a Catholic school, I had to participate in all the activities, mass, etc, and be respectful, but at the same time, they encouraged me to learn about being Jewish and to be proud of it. In fact, at Jewish holiday times, they always used to make me do extra assignments pertaining to Judaism, and present them to the class. I used to hate it haha but I really learned a lot. I am still very good friends with all the nuns, they came to my wedding and are excited about the baby I'm having in the summer. We have long conversations and they NEVER EVER spout scriptures at me or tell me I should be a Christian. In fact, if I was ever to be a Christian, I would want to be like them.

Hope that answers your question. It's fundamentalist attitudes in ANY faith that I object to, not Christians specifically.

It disturbs me that you were so mistreated.
Unfortunately it has happened to many people.
In reality the perentage of mistreated people is small but that is of no help to those who were.
I wish and pray for a far better future or you than the bad you experienced in the past.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I'd like to respond to the 1st responder 1st.

Hello, ScottGem from LI, N.Y... I was born in Brooklyn so yes I can easily say, "u dont want to believe anything, so forgetaboutit!"

1) I don't believe I've I've heard- I 've heard, to be exact... period. Since this doesn't happen for you then it is only an ojective fact for me to state that- THAT is for reproof (statistics) about Christians not hearing or seeing something to confirm their beliefs. By the way, His voice comes with a feeling . A soothing, entle feeling, that is always compassionate.
2) About this whole easier/harder life thing. Well, my husband hasn't been where I've been spiritually & emotionally. He hasn't suffered TRAUMATIC things . I'm still getting double back in blessings now... so don't ever feel sorry for me! So, some come to Jesus when they are humbled to their knees, & some grow up knowing Him . In Mt. 11:28 Jesus says to come to Him all who are weary & burdened & I will give you rest. For my yoke is EASY and my burden is light.
If you actually read the Bible someday, I recommend that you start with the New Testament . Some will disagree with that. That's their style. Fine.
3) now about " a lot of harm has been done as part of that instruction.
Can you state anything specific? In general I think there is corruption in any area, ie: politics,etc. That is why this country needs to have the separation of Church & State. So we can be a society without discrimination. Having a respect for others, for the good of the Nation.

As for my my husband & you are concerned... I was responding to someone's note about them calling The Faith a crutch. He's hasn't (husband) hasn't said that,actually in a long time. He is coming around slowly. He sees the results.
from those believing, & he admits much to that issue. Thankyou for reading this, even if it is "therapy" for me.

Isn't great all the resources one can participate in?

Rainy Day People
Don't hide love inside
They just pass it on

Gordon Lightfoot

In reality the perentage of mistreated people is small but that is of no help to those who were.


Yeah I agree with you there. I have friends who were raised Christian and had no abuse whatsoever. They had great childhoods. Like I said in my last post there are good and bad people everywhere. But once something bad has happened to you it is pretty difficult to forget. In fact to this day I can't watch any of those Sunday morning TV evangelists, even for a minute, because it triggers me so badly that I literally become physically ill.

Anyway, I have lots of Christian friends, and like I said it's not Christianty I object to, it's the fundamentalism and extremism.

I'd like to respond to the 1st responder 1st.

Hello, ScottGem from LI, N.Y...I was born in Brooklyn so yes I can easily say, "u dont want to believe anything, so forgetaboutit!"


I grew up mostly in Brooklyn (Coney Island area) But that's neither here nor there.

1) Ok, so you've heard. Can you prove it? Do you have recordings? Look I'm not trying to challenge your beliefs. You are entitled to them and if they make you feel better, stronger, whatever, then I am very happy for you.
2) But here is the big problem I have, you aren't content being happy with your beliefs. You have to proselytize and get me to agree that your faith is the only true one. That if I believe differently from you I am lost in some way. You talk about having respect for others, yet you don't seem to have respect for the beliefs of people that don't agree with yours. You can't let me be happy with my beliefs as I can let you be happy with yours.
3) Sure I can be specific. Lets start with the Crusades, then segue into the Spanish Inquisition. How about the Christian missionaries who spread throughout what's now called the third world. How many so called savages were killed when these missionaries bought civilized sicknesses to lands that had never had them and had no immunities. Just some examples.

And since we are quoting scriptures. I don't have the exact verse on hand, I'll find it if you want. But lets take a look at Job. Job was considered to be a very righteous man. So righteous that the Lord spared him in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yet this righteous man offered his young daughters (not in marriage) to 2 men if they would leave him alone. This is the Word of God we are supposed to heed and obey?

I believe I was the one who called religion a crutch. I stand by that.

As an aside to arcura. You can disagree all you want. That is your right. But please afford me the same right to disagree. What you see as negativism, I see as reality. What you call an attitude, I see as conclusions derived from concrete evidence.

And since we are quoting scriptures. I don't have the exact verse on hand, I'll find it if you want. But lets take a look at Job. Job was considered to be a very righteous man. So righteous that the Lord spared him in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Yet this righteous man offered his young daughters (not in marriage) to 2 men if they would leave him alone. This is the Word of God we are supposed to heed and obey?


Scott, I am not trying to persuade you to believe as I do nor criticize you for not knowing this but it was Lot that gave his daughters to the men.

Can I tell the story a little to explain why that might be in there? The bible is also a history book of events that happened. God allowed things to be in there to show examples of things. This is in the Old Testament. Lot and his uncle Abraham parted ways. Lot decided to go in a land the looked prosperous. The problem is, the people were unrighteous in every way (according to God). Lot being a righteous man, got caught up in there ways. The two men were homosexuals who wanted the men that were there. Him being a righteous man would rather have the men not be caught up the sin of homosexuality (again God's law not necessarily mine) he gave his daughters to them. God did not in any way condone this act. We are humans just like everyone else. We mess up just like anyone else. That is the story in a nutshell. :)

I do understand where you are coming from. You hold your position very strongly and are pretty consistent with your thinking. For that I commend you.

ScottGem,
Of course you can disagree with me, some others have, and some new ones who come along may.
But you like to site the bad parts of things and seem to ignore the much greater picture of good.
I would rather see the good while acknowledging the bad.
The good vs. bad sort of thing happens throughout history in all cultures and societies.
This world is miserable enough without me pointing out and whining over the bad that has and does happen.
All I can do about it is learn from it and try not to make the same mistakes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

That's an awful lot of eisegesis, arcura.

Main Entry: eis·ege·sis
Pronunciation: "I-s&-'jE-s&s, 'I-s&-"
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural eis·ege·ses /-"sEz/
Etymology: Greek eis into (akin to Greek en in) + English exegesis -- more at IN
: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas -- compare EXEGESIS
Compliments of:Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Main Entry: eis·ege·sis
Pronunciation: "I-s&-'jE-s&s, 'I-s&-"
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural eis·ege·ses /-"sEz/
Etymology: Greek eis into (akin to Greek en in) + English exegesis -- more at IN
: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas -- compare EXEGESIS
compliments of:Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Thanks, Tommy, but I already knew the definition as I'm sure does acura.

phildebenham,
Yes you are correct and that is why I perfer Exegesis primarily done by those who have been studying Holy Scripture for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Scott, I am not trying to persuade you to believe as I do nor criticize you for not knowing this but it was Lot that gave his daughters to the men.


Thanks for the correction. It was a while ago when I researched this for some reason that it was Job stuck in my mind.

As for your expanded version of it, I don't recall any reference to homosexuality in the passages I read. I'll have to see if I can find it and review it.

But you like to site the bad parts of things and seem to ignore the much greater picture of good.
I would rather see the good while acknowledging the bad.


No I don't believe I do. My comments here have been designed to point out the other side of the coin. While I may have given short shrift to the positive sides, that doesn't mean I don't see or acknowledge them.

I have said, in several responses, that I am very happy for the people who feel their faith has helped them. I definitely acknowledge that faith can be a powerful thing. I have also indicated not only approval, but that I follow what is called the Judeo-Christian ethic. Which comes both the Old and New Testaments.

Clearly there is good in organized religion. But that does not mean that practicing an organized religion is right for everyone. That does not mean there is any one religion that is the true one. Yet some people in this thread have taken that position and I will argue against that.


phildebenham,
Yes you are correct and that is why I perfer Exegesis primarily done by those who have been studying Holy Scripture for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Please show me someone who has been "studying Holy Scripture for 2000 years". Besides Mel Brook's 2000 year old man. :)

Seriously though, the key word in the definition is interpretation. The fact is that biblical scholars have intepreted and re-intepreted The Bible many times over those two millennium. There are differing interpretations for many, many passages.

The most happy people in the world are those who believe in some religion or another, who believe in a spiritual being, and follow their beliefs. It gives a feeling of "I am not alone", and we surely are not alone.

The most happy people in the world are those who believe in some religion or another, who believe in a spiritual being, and follow their beliefs. It gives a feeling of "I am not alone", and we surely are not alone. How about you prove it?

Thanks, Tommy, but I already knew the definition as I'm sure does acura.
Just trying to help the masses bud

The most happy people in the world are those who believe in some religion or another, who believe in a spiritual being, and follow their beliefs. It gives a feeling of "I am not alone", and we surely are not alone.

I started to trash this, but as I thought about it, I changed my mind somewhat. I think its clear that being part of a group can enhance one's happiness. And its also clear that practicing a religion can help one attain happiness.

My objection here is twofold. First in the use of the word "most". I don't believe there is any proof of such a statement nor do I believe it accurate. I personally have known several very happy people who have no religious affiliation. I personally, consider myself a happy person. I have a job I enjoy and a family I love and that loves me. I could be happier (a winning lottery ticket would take care of that;) ). But I KNOW that practicing a religion would NOT make me any happier. Which leads to my second objection. The implication in that statement that people who don't practice a religion are somehow less happy or that they will increase their happiness by doing so. Nor do I believe that practicing a religion is a guarantee of happiness.

In my experience, the happiest people are those that are self-assured and confident. Such people tend to have a high self-esteem which breeds happiness. Such people tend to not need the bolsterings of religion to achieve their happiness.

just trying to help the masses bud
Commendable, thank you.

Hi,
My comment on the "happiest" people was not meant to be taken personal. If some of you have taken it personal, as it looks like, then I do apologize for the misunderstanding.
My comment on spiritual people, in general, as being the happiest; as opposed to those without any spiritual beliefs; is based on personal experiences over the past 40 years. As far as "statistical" proof, I guess referred to by NeedKarma with his "disapproval" comment about my opinion, I don't know if any has been compiled anywhere.
Again, I apologize if you feel this was a "personal" comment. It wasn't. It was like many, many, many, many other opinions offered here in the Forum.
Have a cup of coffee, take two breaths, re-boot, and start over.

I have no religion yet and I am 15. My parents decided when i was born to let me pick my own religion but I can't decide. Is it possible for me to go to hell because I dont have a religion? I beleive in god and everything but it seems everytime I start to learn something about a religion it either scares me or I disagree with something. I feel so confused. :confused:
Dear animeluver06,

I previously answered this post by saying that the bible has the answers you seek and then asked you to email my ministry directly to discuss this. I said that this would avoid all the negative feedback that others would post in response to this discussion. That post got immediate negative feedback, as predicted.

Since I have received no email from you, I will summerize what the bible teaches in this answer in the hopes that you, and others, will consider how this applies to your, and their, life.

Throughout the bible we learn that God wrote it through the agency of men He directed in order to communicate with us. Thus the bible is often referred to as the Word of God. In the first book of the bible, Genesis, we learn that God created everything, including man and woman, and that everything was very good. God communicated with that first man and woman using language, so we understand that God is also the creator of language. God placed the man (Adam) and the woman (Eve) in a garden and told them that they could eat of every plant in the garden except for the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Because God created man, man belongs to God. Therefore, God determines truth. So when God tells us something we can believe Him regardless of what man has to say on the subject. What that means is that we can believe God first. We measure what man says by what God has already said.

Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God had warned them that if they did so they would surely die. That word "die" is a Hebrew idiom which means "dying die." In other words when they ate they would begin to die and continuing dying until they were dead. Prior to mans sin (disobedience to God) there was no death, disease, or suffering. Death, disease, and suffering are a result of mans rebellion against God.

God, however, still loved that man and woman (all all of their future offspring, which includes you and I and all of mankind), so He made provision for them (and us) to get back to a right relationship with God and eventually put an end to death, disease, and suffering as well. He promised the woman (Eve) that there would come a Savior who would be perfect and would die sacrificially for all of sinful mankind, thus paying the price of mans sin and creating the possibility for us to regain a right relationship with God again.

Romans 6:23 tells us the price of our sin: "The wages of sin is death...", and the verse continues by telling us what the Savior accomplished for us with His sacrificial death, "....but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." If you do not accept the free gift of God then you must pay the wages yourself. Those wages are death... eternal separation from the God who loves you, in a place called hell. This is not God's desire for you. The bible tells us that "God is not willing that any should perish..." He wants your love and He wants to lavish His love upon you, but He will not force you to make the right decision even as He did not force Adam and Eve to not eat of the forbidden tree.

However, He did make salvation available to you at a great cost to Himself.
Romans 5:8 says, "God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

I'm sure you've heard of John 3:16? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Will you believe in Him? I assure you that I do and I know in my heart the truth of what He has said.

Again I beseech you, write to me through the web site, www.OilandWineMinistries.org, and I will be happy to discuss and answer any questions you may have. This invitation includes anyone else who in interested in eternity as well.

May God richly bless you,

Phil Debenham

phildebenham,
Yes you are correct and that is why I perfer Exegesis primarily done by those who have been studying Holy Scripture for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,

You are a wonderful brother, and I am proud to call you such!

Exegesis need not be dependent upon others (although much is to be gained through some of their wisdom and study), but is dependent upon your own study. Purgatory, for example, is not exegetically seen in any of the verses you have pointed out... and that was my point. You have brought man's fallible ideas into the scripture rather than letting scripture determine the validity or lack thereof of man's fallible ideas. This is a common error in the church today, and a very serious one. We should always let God's word speak to us rather than us telling God what he means. Wouldn't you agree?

In Christ,

Phil

Hi,
My comment on the "happiest" people was not meant to be taken personal. If some of you have taken it personal, as it looks like, then I do apologize for the misunderstanding.
My comment on spiritual people, in general, as being the happiest; as opposed to those without any spiritual beliefs; is based on personal experiences over the past 40 years. As far as "statistical" proof, I guess referred to by NeedKarma with his "disapproval" comment about my opinion, I don't know if any has been compiled anywhere.
Again, I apologize if you feel this was a "personal" comment. It wasn't. It was like many, many, many, many other opinions offered here in the Forum.
Have a cup of coffee, take two breaths, re-boot, and start over.

Fred,
I can't speak for Need, but I didn't take it personally. How I did take it was as a narrow-minded, unsubstantiated comment. As I said, it implied that people who practice a religion are happier then people who don't.

If you had said something like the following:

Practicing any religion gives someone a sense a belonging. Humans are a social animal and that sense of belonging helps achieve happiness in some people.

I would have not objected. I actually think that statement to be a truism.

This is something I have noticed about you many times in the past. You have this tendency to make exaggerated statements (most, always, etc.) that are unsupported by facts or proof. If you stop to think more about what you post and try to keep to facts that can be substantiated, you might not get such reactions as you did here.

This is not an attack against you, it is simply a constructive criticism based on a pattern discernable in your posting history.

P.S. Normally I would have PMed this but you claim you delete my PMs unread.

Thanks, Tommy, but I already knew the definition as I'm sure does acura.

I for one had never heard of it. I'm very glad he gave the definition.

Hi,
My comment on the "happiest" people was not meant to be taken personal. If some of you have taken it personal, as it looks like, then I do apologize for the misunderstanding.
My comment on spiritual people, in general, as being the happiest; as opposed to those without any spiritual beliefs; is based on personal experiences over the past 40 years. As far as "statistical" proof, I guess referred to by NeedKarma with his "disapproval" comment about my opinion, I don't know if any has been compiled anywhere.
Again, I apologize if you feel this was a "personal" comment. It wasn't. It was like many, many, many, many other opinions offered here in the Forum.
Have a cup of coffee, take two breaths, re-boot, and start over.Your post didn't offer your opinion, you posted a statement that is meant to taken as fact. I didn't take it personally either, I was sticking up for the billions of people who are happy without living your particular lifestyle. I have travelled extensively and have met people from all religions, met tons who practice no religion - Scott expressed it well in a previous post: "the happiest people are those that are self-assured and confident. Such people tend to have a high self-esteem which breeds happiness." I believe we all know extremely unhappy devout people. Painting with the wide brush is a very dangerous thing to do, people are individuals not groups. You seem to have a chauvinistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism) view.

I found this fun quiz online called Belief-O-Matic. You answer 20 questions and depending on your answers, your results tell you which religious beliefs you are most in agreement with. My top 5 were Unitarian, Secular Humanist, Reform Judaism, Nontheist and Liberal Quaker. I'm not sure what a Liberal Quaker is, haha, I'm going to have to do some research. :) Anyway here's the link if anyone else wants to take the quiz:

http://beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

I found this fun quiz online called Belief-O-Matic. You answer 20 questions and depending on your answers, your results tell you which religious beliefs you are most in agreement with. My top 5 were Unitarian, Secular Humanist, Reform Judaism, Nontheist and Liberal Quaker. I'm not sure what a Liberal Quaker is, haha, I'm going to have to do some research. :) Anyways here's the link if anyone else wants to take the quiz:

http://beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.htmlCoo site! That could be the subject of a new thread or add it to Rickj's thread.

Thanks for the correction. It was a while ago when I researched this for some reason that it was Job stuck in my mind.

As for your expanded version of it, I don't recall any reference to homosexuality in the passages I read. I'll have to see if I can find it and review it.


Scott, the reference is Gen 19:1-8. This is right before God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah. The way it is said in the text is "bring them out unto us, that we may know them. ". Most if not all of the versions agree that this is a more of an intimate thing than today's version of being friends. New International version even says sex. After rereading the text I think the main reason he gave his daughters is because he had just invited two men in to rest from their journey and the other 2 men came to the door. Lot not wanting to be a bad host and allowing men to basically rape the guests he offered his daughters. The other explanation I gave was another reason in connection. It has been a while for me too since I have read this text.

I won't spend anymore time on this because it is that important but here is a link to some bible version if you would like to look it up yourself.

http://www.bible.com/bibleresources/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=gen+19&version1=9.

jduke44

I already checked it, and the beautiful moral of the story is that the 2 men inside were actually angels, and God destroyed the men outside before anything occurred to his daughters( Lot's)

I have been trying to keep up with this debate but I have been too busy at work to read all the posts and post myself. One thing that I keep seeing over and over again is that (almost) everyone posting here is completely stuck in their beliefs. Its as if one day, you decided that you had it all figured out and you don't need to learn anymore.

Now, like I said, I haven't been able to read through every post. But it seems like no one is taking the time to look at others perspectives with an open mind... just a lot of hostility.

I have seen (almost) everyone make very valid and interesting points. But they all seem to be taken with negativity. There seems to be a lot of ego playing major roles in here.

Another consistency I have seen is the argument to peoples "beliefs" as "prove it." Prove it? Are you serious? Its called "belief" and "faith" for the simple reason that its can't be proven in this life as we know it. If someone feels that God is speaking to them, I doubt their going to say, "Wait a tick, God... lemme grab my tape recorder so I can prove this to my friends." That's just ridiculous.

If I believe something and I can't prove it, you can call me a liar. But I I AM lying, then I would have no place in a debate like this. If something is unprovable, don't write if off just because it can't be proven.

(sorry... I have been wanting to jump in here somewhere and I suppose this is where lol)

You've made some really great points, Dr Jizzle. Funny, you're jumping in just as I feel I've exhausted everything I can read and say here. Personally I don't know why I get involved in these threads, because usually I end up feeling bad one way or another. Thanks for adding your insight, though!

True... and to your comments you left, I know that it has stayed more or less professional. That is very commendable. Most the people involved have been members long enough to keep it civil.

What saddens (for lack of a better word) me is that we have such diverse opinions and backgrounds and we could really be learning a lot from each other rather than tearing others ideas/beliefs down.

Its true that some people are not as educated as others... some people cannot communicate their point or idea as well as others... and some people don't understand things as well as others. But instead of the hostility toward this, we should be helping each other see the other sides of things.

"The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend."

There may be a lot more here than any of us have seen.

What saddens (for lack of a better word) me is that we have such diverse opinions and backgrounds and we could really be learning a lot from each other rather than tearing others ideas/beliefs down.

I agree with you completely! I am always interested in learning about the beliefs (and cultures, for that matter) of others. What upsets me is when some people insist that their way is the only way and that everyone else must follow that way. People like that would have a really hard time living in my multicultural neighborhood here in Canada. I live directly across the street from a very active Mosque, which is 2 blocks from our Jewish Community Centre. Within a 6 block radius there is a Ukrainian Catholic Church, a Baptist Church, and a Sikh Temple. These people are my friends and neighbors. They are the people I see on the street when I walk my dog, and the people I talk to at the library and the grocery store. Our children will all attend school together. If I openly judged them based on their beliefs, I would have no friends. And to think that I'm better than any of them or deserve better because of my beliefs makes me sick to my stomach.


Its true that some people are not as educated as others... some people cannot communicate their point or idea as well as others... and some people don't understand things as well as others. But instead of the hostility toward this, we should be helping each other see the other sides of things.

That's a very valid point! However, people will only be willing to see the other side of things if they feel their ideas and opinions are being respected as well. Unfortunately that respect is often lacking.

Thanks again for your comments!

I respect your viewpoint. God bless those nuns! And you also, Orange. You are going to make a fine mother indeed!

I respect your viewpoint. God bless those nuns! And you also, Orange. You are going to make a fine mother indeed!

Oh and I guess I can't edit a comment, but I meant to add that I respect your beliefs as well! One of my best friends since childhood, Praise (that's her real name!) is the daughter of a pentecostal minister. The whole family has always been very kind to me. I used to have sleep overs at her place, and went to Bible Camp with her, too. It was a welcome relief from some of the bad foster homes I was in. In fact, Praise's father was the one who rescued me from the last bad foster home I was in and got me into the Catholic Boarding school!

I have read the Quran, Book of Mormon and of course the Bible, and I forget some years ago the book that the "Moonies" put out.

I study the bible in 5 separate versions. I have preached in Methodist, Baptist, independent, Orthodox and Catholic Churches. A person often finds his path within or to a faith is always a journey, it never ends we always find a deeper faith and perhaps a closer truth.

I have read the Quran, Book of Mormon and of course the Bible, and I forget some years ago the book that the "Moonies" put out.


That's cool, Fr Chuck! I didn't even know the Moonies had a book. I suppose Rev. Moon wrote it? I will have to look it up. I've read parts of all of the other books you mentioned, but never had the patience to read a whole book! :p

You've prob read here already.. NO RELIGION IS PERFECT.. NONE!!
Y do you feel that you need to have religion in the 1st place... what ever happened to all the people that lived so many millions of years ago that didn't know about religion?did they all go to hell for not having a religion... not to tick any religion off but why can't it just be OK to live a good life be good to each and treat people with respect and not have a religion...

I'm personally am embarrassed to belong to my religion
I'm a catholic and see what the church does to cover up its sins while they are condemning others for the same CRIMES.. so don't feel bad about not having a religion I wish I could give mine up..
To me the church is setup like the mob
You got the don
The lieutenants
The sgts... etc

Just as crooked and a lot richer

Scott, the reference is Gen 19:1-8.

I just looked at several different versions. Most seem to use the wording "that we may know them" in describing what the crowd said to Lot. The word "know" is being interpreted as sexually. Not being a biblical scholar, I'm not going to argue with that interpretation. But I'm still not too comfortable with the idea of condoning the offering of virgin daughters for gang rape for any reason.


One thing that i keep seeing over and over again is that (almost) everyone posting here is completely stuck in their beliefs. Its as if one day, you decided that you had it all figured out and you dont need to learn anymore.

I'm not sure I completely agree with that. Clearly some people refuse to budge from their beliefs. But I think some people have expressed at least an interest in hearing other viewpoints and accepting what those viewpoints mean to them.


Another consistency I have seen is the argument to peoples "beliefs" as "prove it." Prove it? Are you serious? Its called "belief" and "faith" for the simple reason that its can't be proven in this life as we know it.

The point you are missing here is that some of the posts here don't acknowledge that these are beliefs taken on faith. If someone says to me, "this is what I believe", then my reaction is that they are welcome to their beliefs. But if someone says to me this is the one truth and factual, then I will ask them to prove it.

I totally respect other people's beliefs. I am glad for the people that have found solace, happiness, fulfillment or whatever in the practice of their religion. But I expect them to respect my beliefs in turn.

you've prob read here already..NO RELIGION IS PERFECT..NONE!!!
Y do u feel that you need to have religion in the 1st place...what ever happened to all the people that lived so many millions of years ago that didn't know about religion?did they all go to hell for not having a religion...not to tick any religion off but y can't it just be ok to live a good life be good to each and treat people with respect and not have a religion....


Well Tommy, I certainly understand your frustration with "religion", and especially Catholicism in light of the continuing sexual preditor scandals within that religion. But, what exactly do you mean when you use the term "religion"? Do you mean "organized religions or denominations", or "belief in God", or "belief in the bible"?

It is clear from your post that you at least do not believe the bible as written, otherwise you wouldn't believe that people lived for millions of years without religion (for that matter you wouldn't believe that people lived millions of years ago at all!)

Let's assume that the bible isn't true and that we all got here by natural evolutionary processes and mutations. If that is true then man came from molecules by chance random processes. Therefore, man determines truth. There is nothing above him to determine truth. If that is true, what is good? What is bad? What is right? What is wrong? What is a good life? Is the priest wrong to have sex with young boys? Well, if man determines truth, then, no, it is not wrong. Man determines truth.

Now, if the bible is true then God created man out of the dust of the earth. Therefore we belong to and are responsible to our Creator. God determines truth. Right and wrong have meaning. A good life has meaning. The sexual preditor is in sin and stands condemned by God.

You see, Tommy, if the God of the Bible is not true you have nothing to complain about. Everything, EVERYTHING, is the result of chance random processes and there is no such thing as right and wrong, good or bad. You determine truth, and what's true for you isn't true for someone else, there are no answers.

The bible is true, Tommy, and therefore we have absolutes and can determine right and wrong, good and bad. You would benefit greatly by not listening to "religion" or "science" first, but, instead first reading what the Creator has said. Then you will be able to determine what is right or wrong with what you hear from "religion" and "science."

Phil Debenham

That's cool, Fr Chuck! I didn't even know the Moonies had a book. I suppose Rev. Moon wrote it? I will have to look it up. I've read parts of all of the other books you mentioned, but never had the patience to read a whole book! :p
Moon's book is called Divine Principles. It teaches that Jesus came to obtain salvation for mankind, but failed, and that Moon himself is the new messiah sent to fix Jesus' screw ups. If the bible is true, and I believe it is, Moon is a heretic of the first order.

Phil Debenham

The bible is true, Tommy, and therefore we have absolutes and can determine right and wrong, good and bad. You would benefit greatly by not listening to "religion" or "science" first, but, instead first reading what the Creator has said. Then you will be able to determine what is right or wrong with what you hear from "religion" and "science."

Phil Debenham

This is exactly what I was talking about in my response to Dr Jizzle. Phil is stating what he believes not as his belief but as a universal truth. That says that his belief is the one and only answer. This shows a lack of respect for other people's beliefs. It shows a narrow mindedness and an intolerance that I feel is very wrong. It creates a level of hostility because it says that I'm right and you are wrong.

I feel compelled to fight such intolerance and narrowmidnedness wherever I see it.

I totally respect other people's beliefs. I am glad for the people that have found solace, happiness, fulfillment or whatever in the practice of their religion. But I expect them to respect my beliefs in turn.

I wonder what you mean by "respect"? If you mean "respect one's right to believe", then I quite agree with you. If you mean "respect what one believes", then I could not disagree more.

If you believe something that is detrimental to you, I cannot respect that belief. Rather, I would endeavor to expose the folly and danger of that belief in the hopes of guiding you away from the danger towards which you are heading. Can you "respect" that?

Phil Debenham

This is exactly what I was talking about in my response to Dr Jizzle. Phil is stating what he believes not as his belief but as a universal truth. That says that his belief is the one and only answer. This shows a lack of respect for other people's beliefs. It shows a narrow mindedness and an intolerance that I feel is very wrong. It creates a level of hostility because it says that I'm right and you are wrong.

I feel compelled to fight such intolerance and narrowmidnedness wherever I see it.
Scott,

So what you are saying is that you are tolerant of every other viewpoint but my viewpoint which says that your viewpoint is wrong. Isn't that being just as intolerant and narrowminded? Aren't you saying that you are right and I am wrong? There is no difference between what you are doing and what you are fighting.

Phil Debenham

I wonder what you mean by "respect"? If you mean "respect one's right to believe", then I quite agree with you. If you mean "respect what one believes", then I could not disagree more.

If you believe something that is detrimental to you, I cannot respect that belief. Rather, I would endeavor to expose the folly and danger of that belief in the hopes of guiding you away from the danger towards which you are heading. Can you "respect" that?

Phil Debenham

I mean one's right to believe. Though, there is some element of respecting what they believe as well.

No, I cannot respect that. What gives you the right to determine what might be detrimental to me? What gives you the right to determine what is dangerous or folly? That just smacks of the same narrow-mindedness and intolerance I spoke of. It also bespeaks an arrogance that is abhorrent to me. Yeah, if you see me step out into traffic and stop me, that's one thing, but that's not a belief issue. For you to preach and proselytize to me because of your belief in an after-life and eternal damnation or such is NOT respecting my right to my beliefs.


Scott,

So what you are saying is that you are tolerant of every other viewpoint but my viewpoint which says that your viewpoint is wrong. Isn't that being just as intolerant and narrowminded? Aren't you saying that you are right and I am wrong? There is no difference between what you are doing and what you are fighting.

Phil Debenham

No, that's not what I'm saying. You are entitled to believe I am wrong. You are entitled to say you believe I am wrong if I present my beliefs directly to you or in a public forum such as this. There have been several posts in this thread that said, essentially; this is what I believe and why. I have not objected to those whether they believed the same as myself or not. There have been others who have said; this is what is true and what you should believe. Those are the ones I object to.

What you are not entitled to do is say that your belief is the one and only truth without being able to provide concrete proof of that. What you are not entitled to do is preach to me when I have not asked for it. What you are not entitled to do is determine what is detrimental to me based on your own beliefs.

I mean one's right to believe. Though, there is some element of respecting what they believe as well.

No, I cannot respect that. What gives you the right to determine what might be detrimental to me? What gives you the right to determine what is dangerous or folly? That just smacks of the same narrow-mindedness and intolerance I spoke of. It also bespeaks an arrogance that is abhorrent to me. Yeah, if you see me step out into traffic and stop me, that's one thing, but that's not a belief issue. For you to preach and proselytize to me because of your belief in an after-life and eternal damnation or such is NOT respecting my right to my beliefs.

If you cannot respect that, then you cannot respect my beliefs and you are guilty of practicing what you claim to fight. I believe that the bible is the inspired word of God and that if one rejects the word God has, in my belief, spoken directly to your (and all of mankinds) benefit and to the avoidance of mans problems. That is my belief Scott. That belief requires that I share it with you and everyone else as truth. I believe it is truth. Not my truth, but the truth given us from the Almighty Creator to Whom we are all responsible. I respect your right to reject God, Scott. You are not angry that I don't respect your beliefs, you are angry that I say your beliefs are wrong.



No, that's not what I'm saying. You are entitled to believe I am wrong. You are entitled to say you believe I am wrong if I present my beliefs directly to you or in a public forum such as this. There have been several posts in this thread that said, essentially; this is what I believe and why. I have not objected to those whether they believed the same as myself or not. There have been others who have said; this is what is true and what you should believe. Those are the ones I object to.

What you are not entitled to do is say that your belief is the one and only truth without being able to provide concrete proof of that. What you are not entitled to do is preach to me when I have not asked for it. What you are not entitled to do is determine what is detrimental to me based on your own beliefs.

Not only am I entitled, by my beliefs (which you claim to respect), to say that God's revealed truth (not mine) is the one and only truth, and preach that truth (whether or not you've requested it), and to tell people what God (not me) has determined what is detrimental to them, but I am commanded by that same God to do so! What you have not entitled me to do, God has commanded that I do. I choose to listen to Him over you. That is my belief, and your failure to "respect" that belief contridicts all you have written on the subject.

Phil Debenham

Y do u feel that you need to have religion in the 1st place...what ever happened to all the people that lived so many millions of years ago that didn't know about religion?did they all go to hell for not having a religion...

Actually if you're referring to "cavemen" like the Neanderthals, scientists believe that they did have a form of religion or belief in an afterlife, basically because of the careful way they buried they dead.

I agree with you though that no religion is perfect, and I understand your frustrations about crimes that churches have committed and gotten away with. I have a hard time with that myself!

Since you guys are on the topic of respect, I'm just going to add a few words. I believe in respecting the beliefs of another person, but only insofar as those beliefs do not harm others. For example, I don't respect the beliefs of racists, cults and cult leaders, those who believe its G-ds will that innocent people should die, or those whose beliefs justify the abuse of women. In those cases, I don't even think I respect the person's right to believe those things. I think they should change their beliefs, as they are detrimental to society.

Since you guys are on the topic of respect, I'm just going to add a few words. I believe in respecting the beliefs of another person, but only insofar as those beliefs do not harm others. For example, I don't respect the beliefs of racists, cults and cult leaders, those who believe its G-ds will that innocent people should die, or those whose beliefs justify the abuse of women. In those cases, I don't even think I respect the person's right to believe those things. I think they should change their beliefs, as they are detrimental to society.
Orange,

I believe that you have made a reasonable statement even though I do not entirely agree with it. Where I don't agree with it is the statement "I believe in respecting the beliefs of another person". I certainly do agree with your limitations to that respect. What you are saying is that some peoples beliefs are wrong (you have innumerated why they are wrong), and therefore you cannot respect those beliefs (because they do damage to society). I find that I cannot respect a persons belief that runs contrary to the teaching of the bible. That is because I believe that there is a God who has communicated to man through His Word as well as through His Son, Jesus Christ. I don't disrespect a person for believing contrary to that, but I don't respect the contrary belief simply because I believe that it is quite an incorrect belief.

Politically I might be called a "Reagan Conservative". Now, on a political level, I do not disrespect a "Liberal", but I certainly do disrespect some of the liberals viewpoints because I am quite convinced that they are wrong. It is the same with belief and is true with all people regardless of what side of the fence they stand on.

Phil Debenham

Politically I might be called a "Reagan Conservative". Now, on a political level, I do not disrespect a "Liberal", but I certainly do disrespect some of the liberals viewpoints because I am quite convinced that they are wrong. It is the same with belief and is true with all people regardless of what side of the fence they stand on.


Haha. Sorry, I mean no disrespect here, but it always strikes me as funny how differently the term "Liberal" is used in the US as opposed to Canada (where I live). Here a Liberal is a member of the Liberal Party, and they are definitely not left-wing. I would say more centrist. Left-wing here is more like the New Democratic Party or The Green Party. And on the other hand, I think the Conservative Party of Canada is less right-wing than the Conservatives / Republicans in the United States. Anyway it's interesting.

I find that I cannot respect a persons belief that runs contrary to the teaching of the bible. That is because I believe that there is a God who has communicated to man through His Word as well as through His Son, Jesus Christ. I don't disrespect a person for believing contrary to that, but I don't respect the contrary belief simply because I believe that it is quite an incorrect belief.
I do not disrespect a "Liberal", but I certainly do disrespect some of the liberals viewpoints because I am quite convinced that they are wrong. It is the same with belief and is true with all people regardless of what side of the fence they stand on.

What an incredably bigotted statement.
So basically what you are saying is you have no respect for other religions other than Christian !
What an amazing narrow minded and puritanical outlook on life.

ScottGem:

I am not trying to be offensive towards you because I really do accept your right to believe in something/someone or not.
But when you come on a public forum (religion or not), It's nice to bring something beneficial to the table.
I'm just saying that hearing you say you essentially believe in nothing... well who wants nothing?
In fact, it's like bring roadkill to the table... and sorry, but it tends to have a contaminating effect.
But yes, I do accept you. Peaceful proposition..

Tommyp!972
The reason you are unhappy with your Catholic faith is because you do not understand it.
You demonstrate that when you talk about the Church covering up its sins.
As an example, if that is in regard to the sex scandal, THE CHURCH did not do any covering up, but some bishops and priest did try to do so.
In reality such sins have been fought against by the Church from the very beginning.
The Catholic Church is not a mob (that is an unruly group of hostile or angry people). The Catholic Church is a huge family of over 2 billion people and like in most families there are some disagreements.
I sense from your hostility that you are upset or dislike authority. If that's the case then you live in a world where authority is the rule not the exception.
God is the greatest authority. Other authorities are your City, County, State, and National governments.
Any organization you may belong to has rules and regulations that are authorities.
One of the most frustrating and miserable ways to life you life is to resist authority.
I think you would be a much happier person and far better informed if you have a personal meeting with you local priest (or any Catholic priest) and tell him what you have posted here and ask him for clarification and an exhalation of you gripes.
Or you can do it on line with a priest or Bishop like Bishop Chuck here.
The secret is to not be hostile, but rather to sincerely want answers that are of value and true. Hostility turns people off and gets you nowhere but into troubles of various kinds.
I wish you much peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura):) :) :)

See Phil, its actually the reverse. What it boils down to is that your beliefs are such that you cannot respect anyone else's beliefs. Your beliefs require you to show arrogance, disrespect, intolerance and closedmindeness to others. If those are your beliefs, then, you are right I can't and won't respect them. But the reason is because you won't offer me the same respect I am willing to offer you.

Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you. Don't you believe in that? If you won't respect my right to believe what I want by attempting to force your beliefs on me, then why should I respect your rights?

You say "I respect your right to reject God". But you don't.
Basically, you are caught in a Catch 22. To adhere to what you believe requires you to disrespect other's rights. By disrespecting other's rights you forfeit the right to reciprocal respect.


I'm just saying that hearing you say you essentially believe in nothing...well who wants nothing?


Umm where did you get the idea I believe in nothing? I have stated that I believe in the Judeo-Christian ethic. I believe in behaving in a moral and ethical manner. I believe in respecting other peoples rights to believe what they want. But I draw the line when those beliefs interfere with my rights to believe what I want. No I definitely do not believe in nothing.

ScottGen,
You said, "By disrespecting other's rights you forfeit the right to reciprocal respect."
Unfortunately with some people that is true.
But from my point of view everyone should be respected, and their belief also.
But that does not mean that I cannot ponder such a view and then either accept or reject it as I so decide.
It is the withholding of respect that causes much grief in humanity.
Just because you might not respect me or my belief I should not deal with you in the same manner. All that does is make matters worse.
Respectfully, that is my view on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,
First, I have always felt that respect has to be earned. However, I also believe that respect should be given until a person shows themselves undeserving of respect. The fact is that I have shown respect for other people's beliefs. The fact is also, that I have not be given respect in turn.

The problem here seems to be, as I said earlier, a Catch 22. If you insist that your faith is the only truth and that you have to try to save me from my beliefs to the contrary, then you are not and cannot respect my rights to believe differently. I agree that's it's a conundrum. The solution, in my view, is to restrict yourself to a statement of what you believe and why. Then leave it up the other person to decide to accept or reject those beliefs. And to then simply agree to disagree.

But the proselytizing that I have seen, the insistence that other people's beliefs are wrong is not respecting other's rights.

What an incredably bigotted statement.
So basically what you are saying is you have no respect for other religions other than Christian !
What an amazing narrow minded and puritanical outlook on life.
Curlyben, Need Karma, Orange, CaptainForest, and Scott Gem,

Why is it that you reject my beliefs out of hand and them call me narrow minded and bigotted? Christianity is a real to me as is the Pacific Ocean. If you don't believe there is a Pacific Ocean because you've never been there I would still respect you but I would not respect your viewpoint. I grew up on the beach and spent a lot of time in those waters. I spent a couple of years on a ship in the Navy. I know there is a Pacific Ocean. I can't prove that to you since we only have the internet with which we can communicate, but I can tell you that I have touched it and know its real. The same is true with Jesus. He has touched my life in such a real way, such a holy way, that I know He is real in the same way I know the Pacific Ocean is real.

You call me incredibly biggoted because I accept no other religion other than Christianity, but that is what Christ taught. "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father but through me." That is what Christianity is all about. I am a Christian. Having respect for religions that teach contrary to the direct teachings of Jesus would make me a hypocrite. That is what you are asking me to do... compromise my faith... and that I will not do.

You seem to be confusing, in my humble opinion, respect for a belief or a belief system, with respect of an individual. I assure you that I respect each one of you at least as much as you respect each other. I also respect your right to believe whatever you choose, but I may not respect those beliefs. Each one of you does the same. Were it not so you would not be so angry at me for my beliefs.

With all love and respect,

Phil Debenham

Christianity is basically the only true relgion, and no as Chrsitians we do not accept another faith as having any saving value. It can teach moral values, it can help them perhaps live to be a better person. But it is a false teaching with no value to the immortal soul and being.

Ane yes we do love all people and wish they had the blessings of the faith that we have. I really feel sorrow and loss for all of those that die without coming to know Christ as their Lord and Savior.

As for as respect, while not having read all of the prevoius posts, we can and do respect the person and even the fact that he is trying to follow a man developed religion. We can even respect the fact that they really believe they have a valid faith. But in the end no we can not and do not as a Chrsitian accept their faith or teachings as having any real value to salvation.

Can a Buddhist that follows their religion live a peaceful and fulfiling life, of course, could they be a good neighbor or even a good boy scout leader,
The same with all the other religions, but as a belief system unless it is based on Christ it is just merely a useless teachings in the time of eternity.

And no I am not afraid to speak the truth, no matter how society and esp the United States and esp Canada has tried to quiet the words of truth.

And agreeing with Phil, I understand as Chrsit did that many will never come to find his truth, but equal respect for the Christian faith is not given by most others.

See Phil, its actually the reverse. What it boils down to is that your beliefs are such that you cannot respect anyone else's beliefs. Your beliefs require you to show arrogance, disrespect, intolerance and closedmindeness to others. If those are your beliefs, then, you are right I can't and won't respect them. But the reason is because you won't offer me the same respect I am willing to offer you.

Scott, I feel as though my communication skills must be lacking, for you clearly do not understand me. I respect you Scott. I respect your right to believe anything you wish. If, however, your spiritual beliefs conflict with those of Jesus, that is with the belief system I hold as true, then you and I would disagree on that subject. Since your beliefs were in direct conflict with mine, you would not (and do not) respect my beliefs. That does not offend me, it is to be expected. If your beliefs are in conflict with mine then you cannot continue to hold them while respecting what I believe. Therefore you do not respect what I believe, and that is a very logical response. That doesn't mean that you do not respect me or my right to embrace Christ. Neither do I disrespect you or your right to believe what ever it is you believe. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? You, and everyone else, does, and is doing the same thing. It is the inevitable result of people holding conflicting beliefs. It is not bigotted or narrow-minded, it is simply two different belief systems strongly held.

Do unto others... of course I believe it. I believe everything Jesus has said. I wish to be respected as an individual, so I respect others. I do not expect others to respect my faith if they disagree with it. It would be truly inconsistent to say that you respect something you believe to be false. I would think you disingenuous if you said you respect my beliefs while at the same time considering them untrue. That is a contradiction.

With genuine respect,

Phil Debenham

Why is it that you reject my beliefs out of hand and them call me narrow minded and bigotted? You seem a little confused Phil. No one rejects your beliefs, we are shocked that YOU reject others. Reminder - you said:
I cannot respect a persons belief that runs contrary to the teaching of the bible I respect all people regardless of their beliefs. Do you also believe that the world would be better off without those people whose beliefs run contrary to the bible?

You used a passage from the bible:

"I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father but through me."Where does it say to reject and disrespect those that do not share your faith?


That is what Christianity is all about. I am a Christian. Having respect for religions that teach contrary to the direct teachings of Jesus would make me a hypocrite. That is what you are asking me to do...compromise my faith....and that I will not do. No that is not what christianity is all about. If all christians were like you there would be more holy wars and hatred. You are not much different than these islamic fundamentalists, this kind of thinking is their modus operandi.

I assure you that I respect each one of you at least as much as you respect each other. I also respect your right to believe whatever you choose, but I may not respect those beliefs.You should be in politics because you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

You seem to be the male version of the infamous Margaret from Trading Spouses (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5464505634137914176). That episode is truly disturbing to watch.

The most happy people in the world are those who believe in some religion or another, who believe in a spiritual being, and follow their beliefs. It gives a feeling of "I am not alone", and we surely are not alone.How do you explain the high divorce rate for the last ten years? The vast majority are religious people (I'm excluding civil ceremonies) that were so unhappy that they had to leave their husband/wife. You yourself are divorced, would you say you were happy the time proceeding your divorce?

No, I was not happy the time before, or sometime after, my divorce. I was not a Christian at that time.
How do I explain the high divorce rate in America? The fact that over 1/2 the marriages in the US end in divorce? And, if both partners are in their teens when married, the divorce rate for them is even higher?
I explain it from the simple fact that American society now accepts Divorce much easier than many years ago, and is not "frowned upon" as it once was.
It is also easier, legally, to get a divorce than many years ago. Many would rather end it, instead of trying to work things out.
Getting married in a church doesn't always mean that both partners, or could be only one, are religious. Many marry in a Church, merely following their parents' wishes, or think it's the "right thing" for them to do.
I'm not sure to what extent this is true, but in many cases, it is true.
I have also seen over the past many years, funeral services for those who have no spiritual beliefs, with a Pastor, Minister, Preacher, etc. If those who have passed on didn't want this type of burial service, surely they would have informed their family, or put it in writing not to have a burial service such as this.
It would be interesting to see what percentage of those Divorced, were attending some type of spiritual or religious services regularly before they even considered divorce, as opposed to those who were not.

Why is it that you reject my beliefs out of hand and them call me narrow minded and bigotted?

I am a Christian. Having respect for religions that teach contrary to the direct teachings of Jesus would make me a hypocrite. That is what you are asking me to do...compromise my faith....and that I will not do.

You seem to be confusing, in my humble opinion, respect for a belief or a belief system, with respect of an individual. I assure you that I respect each one of you at least as much as you respect each other. I also respect your right to believe whatever you choose, but I may not respect those beliefs. Each one of you does the same. Were it not so you would not be so angry at me for my beliefs.

With all love and respect,

Phil Debenham

Phil,
I'm going to try this one more time to hopefully make some sense to you. First, you make an extremely invalid assumption when you claim that we reject your beliefs "out of hand". You have no idea what level of research, reading and thought has gone into the formation of what I believe in. If we don't believe as you do, then we must not have been exposed to what you believe is the truth. That is in keeping with your narrow mindedness.

Second, When I was growing up my family attended the Brotherhood Synagogue in NYC. This synagogue shared the building with a church (I think it was Episcopalian, but I'm not sure). The two congregations offered shared events together. Each congregation respecting the others rights to the belief and practice of their religion. Clearly, not all Christians are so adamant and fanantic in their adherence to gospel that they disrepect the rights of others to their beliefs. Are they all hypocrites? I believe its possible to present one's own beliefs and the reasons for it without disrespecting what other people believe. That's what I've tried to do here. No I cannot respect your belief that you have the right to disrespect my beliefs because they confict with your own. I can and do respect your right to believe Christianity is the only true religion. Obviously there is a bit of a conflict here, but that conflict is your problem since your are caught in the Catch 22.

Third, your analogy about the Pacific Ocean is facetious and invalid. You can prove the existence of the Pacific to one who has never seen it by offering concrete evidence via Atlases and pictures. The only proof you have to support your beliefs are the words of The Bible. I am not minimizing the power of those words. Clearly they have a great deal of power. Clearly as well, many people do believe in the truth of those words to some degree or another. But many people do not. And those people have just as much right, at least in American society, to their beliefs.

The one who is confused here about what is being talked about is you. The issue here is a respect of each individual's rights to believe what they want. You are not being asked to respect my beliefs, just my right to believe them. You cannot respect that right by calling it "folly" or "detrimental". You cannot respect that right by trying to force your beliefs onto others.

Hell doesn’t exist.

Well, hell is something that some religions believe in. Other religions don’t believe in hell.

Why choose a religion?

You believe in God, that is enough. Do right in the world and that is all that is needed. All these organized religions who preach about xyz are wrong in that sense.

There are how many religions out there? They can’t all be right.
How do you know that hell doesn't exist?

How do you know that belief in God is enough? Who determines this?

How do you know that doing right in the world is all that is needed? Who determines what is right?

Phil Debenham

This is an interesting discussion.
It brings to mind the question, "What in your way of thinking is the respect of another person and the respect of a different belief?" It seems that from what I read here that there are two different ideas of what the word respect means in regard to the related subject.
Another question, "If we respect a different belief other than our own does that mean that in some way or other we are accepting the concept or just the existence of that belief?"
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Scott, et al,

I am not going to respond to by quoting you this time. I have, and no doubt you have as well, been quoted out of context many times, and I don't want to continue it here. It has caused considerably more confusion than clarity.

Let me say simply to you all:


1. I believe that all mankind are sinners and in need of a Savior.

2. I believe that Savior is Jesus Christ.

3. I believe the Creator God has spoken to us through His written word the bible.

4. I believe in heaven and hell.

5. I believe that those who reject Jesus Christ will not see heaven.

6. I believe that all people have the right to seek and to find God.

7. I believe that all people have the God given right to make their own choices.

8. I respect all of mankind, collectively and individually.

9. Any person of any religion is welcome into my home, and will be treated with the love and respect of Jesus Himself.

10. I do not agree (perhaps a better word than respect) with beliefs that are in conflict with mine. However, I a willing to discuss differences and open to being shown where my beliefs are wrong.

Phil Debenham

This is an interesting discussion.
It brings to mind the question, "What in your way of thinking is the respect of another person and the respect of a different belief?" It seems that from what I read here that there are two different ideas of what the word respect means in regard to the related subject.
Another question, "If we respect a different belief other than our own does that mean that in some way or other we are accepting the concept or just the existence of that belief?"
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Fred,

You are the first to understand the problem of this discussion. It is in the understanding of what "respect" really means. There is a huge difference between respect for a persons right to believe something and respecting that something they believe in. I respect the Islamic Fundamentalists right to consider me Satan, but I do not respect his belief that I am Satan. This is ALL I have been attempting to communicate throughout this discussion.

Blessings,

Phil Debenham

Phil and Fred,
Frankly, I don't understand why the two of you are confused. I have been very clear about what I have referred to. What I'm going to do is expand on Phil's 6th & 7th points:

6. I believe that all people have the right to seek and to find their own spirituality.

7. I believe that all people have the right to make their own choices.

The respect I have referred to is a respect for each person's right to believe what they want. I have been very specific about that. I do not ask for or expect anyone to respect or agree with my choices. Just respect that I have the right to make them. However, granting that respect means not belittling those choices. It means not directly challenging those choices by declaring they are wrong. You have the right to disagree, but that is different from a direct challenge.

I do not believe in Phil's first 5 points. But I respect that he does. If he finds comfort and solace in those beliefs then I am happy for him or anyone that does. I find my comfort and solace elsewhere.

I do believe in Phil's last 5 points (with amendments as noted). The place where I think we have differed is in the expression of the differences. In my view its one thing to say; "This is what I believe (and why)". Its a different thing to say; "This is what is true and if you don't agree you are wrong!". When expressed the first way, one can counter with one's beliefs and explanations and then agree to disagree. When expressed the latter way, it tends to compel the opposite side to challenge the assertions.

I realize that Phil, Fred (Arcura) and Chuck are laboring under a Catch 22 because their beliefs are such that they cannot accept that any other belief can exist. I can respect that they believe that. But I, respectfully submit, that one can say; "I believe this to be true" instead of "This is true!" without compromising their belief and therefore, without challenging and disrespecting other's rights to their beliefs.

I think this sums up what I have been trying to say throughout most of this thread.

I do have to add something here. Generally I do not get involved in discussions like these. I prefer threads that deal in more factual matters where there are concrete proofs. If someone says 2+2=5 then its all right to tell them they are wrong. If I say there is no Pacific Ocean, then I would deserve to be belittled for that, since there is ample proof that it does exist. But in a discussion like this, where so much is taken on faith and not irrefutable fact, then people have to respect one's right to a different belief.

Fred,

You are the first to understand the problem of this discussion. It is in the understanding of what "respect" really means. There is a huge difference between respect for a persons right to believe something and respecting that something they believe in. I respect the Islamic Fundamentalists right to consider me Satan, but I do not respect his belief that I am Satan. This is ALL I have been attempting to communicate throughout this discussion.

Blessings,

Phil Debenham

I kept reading this and the more I did the more I was bugged by it. See the thing is I agree with what you have said after the first two sentences. What bugs me is that I have been saying that all along. I've reviewed what I have said here and do not understand how anyone could be unclear about what I have been referring to. I have never asked for respect for my beliefs, only for my right to believe.

I kept reading this and the more I did the more I was bugged by it. See the thing is I agree with what you have said after the first two sentences. What bugs me is that I have been saying that all along. I've reviewed what I have said here and do not understand how anyone could be unclear about what I have been referring to. I have never asked for respect for my beliefs, only for my right to believe.
Scott,

And that is exactly what I have been saying as well. I do not disrespect your right to believe whatever you believe. I don't... honest. Never have.



I do have to add something here. Generally I do not get involved in discussions like these. I prefer threads that deal in more factual matters where there are concrete proofs. If someone says 2+2=5 then its alright to tell them they are wrong. If I say there is no Pacific Ocean, then I would deserve to be belittled for that, since there is ample proof that it does exist. But in a discussion like this, where so much is taken on faith and not irrefutable fact, then people have to respect one's right to a different belief.

Perhaps we should discuss the evidence or lack of evidence that God exists?

ScottGem,
You said, "I realize that Phil, Fred (Arcura) and Chuck are laboring under a Catch 22 because their beliefs are such that they cannot accept that any other belief can exist."
As far as I am concerned I'd be a blithering idiot to have a belief that cannot accept that any other belief exists.
I do not know what hole you dug that up from, but please put it back and bury it with a concrete plug.
Some of my friends have different beliefs and accept them as they are.
I also know that world wide there are many hundreds of different beliefs and I accept that fact.
I think you went overboard with that statement trying to say something else but the way it came out is ridiculous.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Word,words, and more words How come for me to be right you have to be wrong.Sorry I don't understand how any one can believe so much of the dogma of every religion that there can only be one truth. The arrogance overwhelms me sometimes as it seems no matter what you believe or what you call it basically your saying the same thing and have the nerve to think that that's all there is. GET real your all right, in that you believe, but your all wrong in that you think that unless you do as I do you're a heathen. You can quote any scripture in any book in any religion as humans we cannot know everything and need to know a lot more before we say anyone else is wrong. For that matter who cares what you do in your church,or mosque or synagogue or corner bar. The only thing that is right is you choose to believe ,everything else is your opinion and you can do that anyway you want! If you don't like it, do like its been done for thousands of years -write your own bible and build your own church so you can rail about how wrong everyone else is!:cool: :p

Hi. Jesus is your only answer. I do not care what others tell you, you must believe in, and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. There is no other.
May God bless you.

Hi. Jesus is your only answer. I do not care what others tell you, you must believe in, and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. There is no other.
May God bless you.
While I agree with you, rideout, your statement is too simplistic. You say that Jeus is the only answer, but what is the question? You say I must accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, but you do not tell me why. As I said, I agree with you. I am also a Christian. However, I am trying to point out that your statements raise more questions than they answer.

YBIC,

Phil Debenham

One says "black", the other say "White". You want me to believe that both are right? Everything is relative, right? I don't think so Talaniman, its not what we see in the world around us.

Scott,

And that is exactly what I have been saying as well. I do not disrespect your right to believe whatever you believe. I don't....honest. Never have.


I've gone through the thread again. I think I found where some confusion has entered into it on the part of all parties, with certain statements that were not precise enough. Suffice it to say, that I think we are pretty much on the same page now as far as respecing ones right to their beliefs.

ScottGem,
You said, "I realize that Phil, Fred (Arcura) and Chuck are laboring under a Catch 22 because their beliefs are such that they cannot accept that any other belief can exist."
As far as I am concerned I'd be a blithering idiot to have a belief that cannot accept that any other belief exists.
I do not know what hole you dug that up from, but please put it back and bury it with a concrete plug.
Some of my friends have different beliefs and accept them as they are.
I also know that world wide there are many hundreds of different beliefs and I accept that fact.
I think you went overboard with that statement trying to say something else but the way it came out is ridiculous.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Looking over the thread and what I said, I may have misspoke that to some extent. What I should have said is; "cannot accept that any other belief is true". Although the difference is subtle, using the word exists for true did alter what I was trying to say.

I've gone thru the thread again. I think I found where some confusion has entered into it on the part of all parties, with certain statements that were not precise enough. Suffice it to say, that I think we are pretty much on the same page now as far as respecing ones right to their beliefs.
Now I can accept that, despite all the name calling directed my way.

Now I can accept that, despite all the name calling directed my way.

About that. Almost all of the discussion here was directed at what was posted here. I don't believe anyone engaged in name-calling on a personal level. Any possible derogatory terms where applied to what was said.

I received certain comment as well. I was told that I focused only on the bad and was very negative. Also that I believed in nothing. Yet, when disproved those statements, I got no acknolwedgement of it.

About that. Almost all of the discussion here was directed at what was posted here. I don't believe anyone engaged in name-calling on a personal level. Any possible derogatory terms where applied to what was said.

I received certain comment as well. I was told that I focused only on the bad and was very negative. Also that I beleived in nothing. Yet, when disproved those statements, I got no acknolwedgement of it.
You have just acknowledged it. But, be that as it may, we shall, I believe, both live in peace and with respect towards one another from here on out. Agreed?

Hi. Jesus is your only answer. I do not care what others tell you, you must believe in, and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. There is no other.
May God bless you.
So what happened to everyone BEFORE Jesus was born?

Hi. Jesus is your only answer. I do not care what others tell you, you must believe in, and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. There is no other.
May God bless you.

I suggest you read through this thread entirely. I think you will find that even those that believe as you do, still respect the fact that others have the right to believe differently.

Those of us that don't believe as you do, don't cotton to using phrases like "your only answer", "you must believe", "there is no other".

The only verifiable fact is that there are many religions. Millions of people believe differently from each others. The Amercian society is built partially on religious freedom. That each individual has the right to believe and practice what they want. You have the right toi express what you believe. I respect that. But please fford me that same respect.

ScottGem:

I had a fair amount of Jewish friends when "we" we about 20.
Religion was never really mentioned except for acknowledging the obvious.
Now, I was born a Christian. Believed in God, subconsciously or consciously.
These friends must have been non-religious or we probably wouldn't have been friends at all.
Now, I'm not in any catch-22 position. I can relate to the secular society with somewhat" ease".
One more fact here is at the 20ish age I forgot sometimes, but Never denied my belief in God.
O.K. Now my question is this:

This whole discussion (FOR ME,) NOW has boiled down to...
Having eliminated any other Religions... Does it not come down to the only 2 Religions that hold any Truth?
Isn't the Religion in this Topic about that?

Tell me, do my statements hold any water to Anyone?
Is this Judaism and Christianity?

ScottGem,
Thanks for clearing that up.
Believe it or not there are parts of many other beliefs that I think are true.
All those that believe in a creator: I agree with that.
All those that believe we should not harm each other: I agree with that.
I also agree with those have in their particular belief:
That working for peace and kindness is a noble virtue,
That there is but one true God,
That one of the main purposes in life is to serve each other,
That human life is sacred,
That honesty is much more preferred than deception,
That men and women were made for each other,
And much more.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
:) :) :)

Just to make it clear:

ScottGem,
Thanks for clearing that up.
Believe it or not there are parts of many other beliefs that I think are true.
All those that believe in a creator: I agree with that.
I agree that there was a creator, we probably differ on the nature of the entity
All those that believe we should not harm each other: I agree with that.
The three major religions all believe in the Ten Commandments. Other religions also have prohibitions against harming other life.
I also agree with those have in their particular belief:
That working for peace and kindness is a noble virtue,
I definitely agree with that
That there is but one true God,
While I believe in a Creator, I don't believe in what I think you refer to as a God.
That one of the main purposes in life is to serve each other,
I would put it to HELP each other
That human life is sacred,
To a large extent
That honesty is much more preferred than deception,
Most definitely
That men and women were made for each other,
Not sure about what's behind that one, so I'll pass.
And much more.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
:) :) :)

It seems we do have a number of beliefs in common.

I just looked at several different versions. Most seem to use the wording "that we may know them" in describing what the crowd said to Lot. The word "know" is being interpreted as sexually. Not being a biblical scholar, I'm not going to argue with that interpretation. But I'm still not too comfortable with the idea of condoning the offering of virgin daughters for gang rape for any reason.


Scott, I commend you for researching this on your own instead of taking my word for it. I only bring this up for clarification and nothing else. In my view of this scripture, I don't believe God (and the author) is necessarily condoning this behavior. God never condones this behavior for any reason. Just like He didn't condone the two for trying to sexually rape the two angels and the two angels killed them. I believe this is in there because it happened. God chose to have it in there to show the even ones who believe in Him mess up. The one's who believe in Him and mess up can ask forgiveness and He will forgive them. Sometimes I believe God will forgive even when we don't ask. Lot thought he was doing the right thing I am sure, but in context with the teaching with the rest of the Bible, that isn't right to do. I hoep this clarifies this particular scripture.

O.K. Now my question is this:

This whole discussion (FOR ME,) NOW has boiled down to.......
Having eliminated any other Religions.... Does it not come down to the only 2 Religions that hold any Truth?
Isn't the Religion in this Topic about that?

Tell me, do my statements hold any water to Anyone?
Is this Judaism and Christianity?

In my view there are three major religions that have to considered, Judiasm, Christianity and Islam. All three are based on the Old Testatment. Christianity expands on the OT with the NT. Islam rather than expanding on the earlier works, takes bits and pieces and adds its own. Within each of the big three there are sects that have some varying beliefs.

Then there is Buddhism and Hinduism that have their own practices. I'm not going to try to list splinter groups like Wiccan, Druidism etc.

There is some commonality between almost all of them as well as major differences.

Remember this discussion startted with a question about what a 15 year old should pick.

My point has been that it doesn't necessarily matter. What's important, in my view, is that a person lives an ethical, moral and generous life.

ScottGem,
Thanks,
To clear up this one...
That men and women were made for each other,
Not sure about what's behind that one, so I'll pass.
What is behind it is that men and women (that is the need sexual difference) is for the propagation of the species, sometimes called species survival.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

ScottGem,
Thanks,
To clear up this one.....
That men and women were made for each other,
Not sure about what's behind that one, so I'll pass.
What is behind it is that men and women (that is the need sexual difference) is for the propagation of the species, sometimes called species survival.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Well now, there are species that are asexual. I would say the Creator did some experimenting and arrived at the concept of different genders mating to produce offspring. However, I also believe that concept is both one of the greatest gifts and greatest curses bestowed on the human species. But that is a topic for another discussion. ;)

ScottGem,
That would be and intersting discussion.
Why not start it?
This one has lost much of it's steam.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

ScottGem,
That would be and intersting discussion.
Why not start it?
This one has lost much of it's steam.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I may at some point, but I think I need some time to recover from this one ;)

I really wish I had the time to read all these posts... but since most of you seem to be caught up in your own little discussions, Im going to jump in on what Father Chuck said a few pags back...



"Christianity is the only true religion."


Father Chuck, what defines a Christian?

There are many answers to this question. Many will say that it is one that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. To that, one could say that MANY people inadvertently follow those teachings without acknowledging that Jesus is their Savior. Most Christians would then say that without acknowledging that, they are NOT Christians.

Some would say it's a person professing belief in Jesus as the Christ. I can certainly know that Jesus is the Christ and worship Satan, therefore that would not make me Christian.

I believe my Sunday school teachers told me that as long as I accepted Jesus into my heart, I was a Christian. Well, I have done that a thousand times, during a thousand sermons... and yet, I have sinned... I have acknowledged, practiced, and professed other religions without asking forgiveness. Am I still a Christian?

Some would say that you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. That He was sent here to die for our sins.

I believe that. Does that make me a Christian? What about if I told you that I didn't believe He was the ONLY Son of God? Does that no longer make me a Christian? Aren't we ALL Sons of God? Didn't Jesus Himself profess that He is no different than you or I? That we can do acts in His name just as Jesus did? I also see God and Death in a different light than 95% of proclaimed Christians. I believe in a form of reincarnation. I believe that Astrology can tell us a lot about our path in this Life. I believe that the Darkness can be contacted. I believe that One can overcome the limitations of this Life. I believe that I am as much a part of God and Jesus Himself... as Buddha... as Hare Krishna... I believe it all parallels a scientific aspect of Life...

I could go on and on... lol - basically, all I am getting at is what truly defines a Christian?

Yes, we cannot deny that other faith exist. But this does not make them true. It is everyone's right to believe as they wish. That is why God gave us freedom of choice. He wants us to come to Him because we want to, not because we have to. That is why He did not build robots. Even the angels were given freedom of choice. That is how Satan was able to rebel, and take a third of the angles with him.

As a follower of Jesus, I must tell what His word says. That does not mean that I am saying that other faiths does not exist. It means that I believe the bible, and what it says. There are some things in the bible, which I do not understand, and I do not believe others understand it either. Because I believe it is not time for us to have this knowledge yet.

But the basics, I do understand, and that is what I base my beliefs on. I believe that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, and that it only through Him that we can be saved. That is what He said. Now that is true, or He is a liar. There is no between. He cannot be both. I do not believe that He could lie, nor did He ever want to. So, in my heart, I know that He is who He said He was/is, and that is what I base my faith, my life, and the destiny of my soul. Amen..

So what happened to everyone BEFORE Jesus was born?
According to the bible, Jesus existed before his incarnation, in fact it was He who created everything that is. The promise of his coming and his redemptive work for all of mankind first occurs in Genesis and can be found over and over again in the Old Testament. Jesus told the Pharisees that Abraham saw him and was glad. The Jews answered him saying, "you are not yet 30 years old and you say you've seen Abraham?" Jesus answered, "Before Abraham was, I AM."

So, to answer your question, Jesus was the answer to all of mankinds problems from the beginning of creation.

Phil Debenham

It's really weird how a couple of days and a major event can change your outlook on things... there was a huge tragedy, 2 accidental deaths in my family, and now the religious discussions, arguments, etc. don't seem to matter anymore.

Anyway I just wanted to say that if I offended or hurt anyone by anything I've said in this thread, I apologize. It's difficult to describe, but like I said, I feel a lot differently now. Take care everyone, I probably won't be participating in this thread anymore, at least for a while!

Yes, we cannot deny that other faith exist. But this does not make them true. It is everyone's right to believe as they wish. That is why God gave us freedom of choice. He wants us to come to Him because we want to, not because we have to. That is why He did not build robots. Even the angels were given freedom of choice. That is how Satan was able to rebel, and take a third of the angles with him.

As a follower of Jesus, I must tell what His word says. That does not mean that I am saying that other faiths does not exist. It means that I believe the bible, and what it says. There are some things in the bible, which I do not understand, and I do not believe others understand it either. Because I believe it is not time for us to have this knowledge yet. :cool:

But the basics, I do understand, and that is what I base my beliefs on. I believe that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, and that it only through Him that we can be saved. That is what He said. Now that is true, or He is a liar. There is no inbetween. He cannot be both. I do not believe that He could lie, nor did He ever want to. So, in my heart, I know that He is who He said He was/is, and that is what I base my faith, my life, and the destiny of my soul. Amen..Am I wrong if I am not a christian? Am I a heathen If I don't believe the bible is the word of GOD?

I will only tell you what the bible says. I will not call anyone a name. I do not have that right. I cannot judge. I do not want to judge. That is God's job. In fact, I could not even describe a heathen. My desire is to help someone find Jesus. I cannot do that by calling people names. God loves everyone. He wants everyone to come home to Him. So do I. God bless

Am I wrong if I am not a christian? Am I a heathen If I don't believe the bible is the word of GOD?
If the bible is true, than, yes you are wrong. If by "heathen" you mean "unbeliever", then yes you are a "heathen". If by "heathen" you mean something derogatory, the no you are not a "heathen".

Phil Debenham

Yes, we cannot deny that other faith exist. But this does not make them true. It is everyone's right to believe as they wish. That is why God gave us freedom of choice. He wants us to come to Him because we want to, not because we have to. That is why He did not build robots. Even the angels were given freedom of choice. That is how Satan was able to rebel, and take a third of the angles with him.

As a follower of Jesus, I must tell what His word says. That does not mean that I am saying that other faiths does not exist. It means that I believe the bible, and what it says. There are some things in the bible, which I do not understand, and I do not believe others understand it either. Because I believe it is not time for us to have this knowledge yet.

But the basics, I do understand, and that is what I base my beliefs on. I believe that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, and that it only through Him that we can be saved. That is what He said. Now that is true, or He is a liar. There is no inbetween. He cannot be both. I do not believe that He could lie, nor did He ever want to. So, in my heart, I know that He is who He said He was/is, and that is what I base my faith, my life, and the destiny of my soul. Amen..

Much better put! I am very happy for you that you have find comfort in your faith. As long as you relize that other people can find a similar solace and comfort in their faiths. You may not understand it, you may not agree with it, but you need to respect their right to believe.

I would add that there may be an "inbetween". The words of God and of Jesus were recorded by men. It is possible the words were not recorded exactly. Another possibility is that Jesus truly believed the things he taught. Even if they all weren't true, that does not make him a liar.

As I've said, I'm more concerned with living according to the ethical and moral guidelines set down in the Bible. I'm less concerned with the rest of trappings of worshipping some deity.

Yes. I understand what you mean..

I would add that there may be an "inbetween". The words of God and of Jesus were recorded by men. It is possible the words were not recorded exactly. Another possibility is that Jesus truly believed the things he taught. Even if they all weren't true, that does not make him a liar.
No, it would not make him a liar, it would make him a lunatic.

No, it would not make him a liar, it would make him a lunatic.

I'm surprised to see you say that, Phil! Earlier in this thread someone insisted that God or Jesus had talked to her. Is she a lunatic? Does having faith in something, even where there is no concrete evidence, make someone crazy?

In my opinion, all religion is based on faith. Any evidence to support that faith is interpreted and not concrete. That does not make the faith any less powerful.

Phil,
The distionary says...
Lunatic:
* an insane person
* daredevil: a reckless impetuous irresponsible person
* insane and believed to be affected by the phases of the moon
I think that definition dose not apply to Jesus, but the word in the second definition line might apply to you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Another possibility is that Jesus truly believed the things he taught. Even if they all weren't true, that does not make him a liar.

Scott and Fred,

If Jesus truly believed the things he taught, and they were not true (of course I believe they were true), then that would make Jesus a lunatic. Jesus taught that he lived before Abraham, that he was the only way to the Father, that he was the "I AM." He taught that he would raise up his own body after he died. Surely, if I made those claims you would both consider me a lunatic!

Jesus was not a lunatic because what he taught is true.

There are really only three possibilities concerning Jesus in light of his life, teaching, and his death (which he could have avoided): he is either 1) a liar, 2) a lunatic, or 3) Lord. You need to decide which.

Phil Debenham

You are right. I agree...

phildebenham,
Why did you include me in that statement?
Jesus Christ has been my Lord and saviour for over 70 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Phil,
Maybe my problem is with the term word lunatic. I find it to be pejorative and demeaning. A person can be delusional without suffering from lunacy. So I don't agree with your 3 options. Instead I would give the three as 1) a liar, 2) delusional or 3) son of God.

I would then opt for 2). His belief in his divinity was a mild delusion, but one caused him to do good works.

phildebenham,
Why did you include me in that statement?
Jesus Christ has been my Lord and saviour for over 70 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Fred,

So, you have made the choice, and no, I did not mean that you, but rather, Scott has to make the choice. You did not understand how I could respond to Scott's question that if Jesus believed what he said but it was not true he would have been a lunatic... and then called me irresponsible... so I included you in the explanation.

YBIC,

Phil

Phil,
Maybe my problem is with the term word lunatic. I find it to be pejorative and demeaning. A person can be delusional without suffering from lunacy. So I don't agree with your 3 options. Instead I would give the three as 1) a liar, 2) delusional or 3) son of God.

I would then opt for 2). His belief in his divinity was a mild delusion, but one caused him to do good works.
What are good works? Who decides what is good?

What are good works? Who decides what is good?

Ahh, now you seek to embroil me in a Catch 22. If there is no God, then how is a determination between good and evil made? Where did the Ten Commandments and the "Golden Rule" come from?

I'll be honest and say I have no good answer for that. My feeling is that these things evolved from a sense of survival. That man, being a social animal, devised these mores and ethics to allow for a more ordered society. One that would allow the individual to grow without impeding on other individuals and the society as a whole. I also believe that religions came to exist partially to codify and enforce these ethics.

ScottGem:

I believe I had a response in the very beginning to the 15yo. I don't know if u saw it. Then we picked up the discussion further after it appeared that the girl left.

I don't want to go into the 3 major religions @ this point. I simply don't have time.

I agree with all the positive features of & in those religions.

But I still say that you are stating that you do not believe in God. You stated that YOU believe in a Judao-Christian ethic.
So why have you come to the RELIGION subcategory?

To be honest with you Scottgem, I see a problem with your thinking.
You said- "but we probably differ on the nature of the entity"
Did you know that Satan is an evil entity?

There are 2 key words I see that are being said by you that concerns me.
I am not a psychiatrist so don't take this to heart. But I do have some training in psychology.

The 2 words are in the same sentence. "NATURE" of the ENTITY"
When you can put down your anger and listen, I can show you how you can defeat the enemy through; FIRST by believing in God. The God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, and Moses and yes, Jesus.

When you are willing to do that. Then you will truly have a Father in Heaven.

Then you can visit any Religion page & not have any confusion of the context of your response.

Your friend in Christ?
Me.

Ahh, now you seek to embroil me in a Catch 22. If there is no God, then how is a determination between good and evil made? Where did the Ten Commandments and the "Golden Rule" come from?

I'll be honest and say I have no good answer for that. My feeling is that these things evolved from a sense of survival. That man, being a social animal, devised these mores and ethics to allow for a more ordered society. One that would allow the individual to grow without impeding on other individuals and the society as a whole. I also believe that religions came to exist partially to codify and enforce these ethics.
That if molecules to man evolution is true, and there is no God who has communicated with man, then man determines truth and truth is whatever you make it.

I will now, and forever, chose #3. The reason is, it is the only one which is true... God bless..

I believe that is you are open to finding the True God and ask him to reveal Himself to you then that will occur. The God of the Bible whose son is Jesus Christ is the only profit to ever live and die and be seen afterwards and raised into the sky. YOu can read history books from that same time frame and find that the Bible is true and validated. There is nothing in the Bible that can't be verified. Just begin to read a small portion at a time and maybe even attend a bible study w/ some friends. Just be open and the True God will make himself known to you. There are many different religions and faiths and it can and is so confusing.

Some say there is no heaven or hell; others say there are both. Some say all you have to be is good to go to heaven. Find out what the Bible tells you about these things. I believe in both and don't believe that going to heaven has anything to do with being good all by itself. It's about your beliefs.

Praying for you to find your answer.

Those are good suggestions.
Peace and kindness,:) :) :)
Fred (arcura)

I started to research about alot of religions: Muslims, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christian,...
But then I found one thing out!
Christianity is the one real religion!
Every other religion died out or their God doesn't show any miracles or their are no prophecies in their word!

I hate to burst your bubble, but you are wrong. Mohammed is Not the god of Islam, that is Allah. Mohammed was only a prophet. In actuality, Judaism. Christianity and Islam all worship the same god. Since all three acknowledge the Old Testament as the basis of each religion. The differences occur later as Christianity recognizes Jesus Christ as the son of God and Islam recognizes Mohammed as his last prophet.

As to prohecies and miracles, I think, if you research the Koran, more closely you will find Mohammed made a few prophecies and spoke of a few miracles.

If you want to believe that Christianity is the one true religion, that's your right. However, you will have to use a better argument, because yours is full of holes.

You might want to go here,
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/other-religion/jehovah-allah-51597.html?highlight=Are+Allah+God+the+same

But where does it say that this prophecies came true????

And i don't think that God will send the 2 Messiahs on the earth for two different beliefs! Can you explain me why you think the Christians and Islam believe in the same God!

Nostradamus is considered the greatest seer in history. Yet most of his predictions coming true are subject to interpretation.

I don't "think" that they all believe in the same god. Its established fact. As I said, both Christianity and Islam acknowledge the Old Testament. The god considered the father of Christ is the same god of Abraham, Joseph and Moses. Islam's Allah is also the same God from the Old Testament. If you have really been doing your research you would know this.

Where the religions diverge is in following the teachings of Christ and Mohammed as set down in the New Testament and the Koran.

so do you think that all this religions are true?

I don't believe in organized religion period. I believe that ALL religions are a construct of man to explain things they were unexplainable to them. The major purposes of religion is to provide a moral code for people to follow. I DO believe in that moral code to a large extent. But I don't believe in the trappings that people have placed around it.


i just did!
There are articles which say that its the same and article which say not!

I haven't gone through that thread. But, I point to the facts. As I said, the facts are that all three major religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) accept the Old Testament as the basis for their religions. Given that fact, they then have to accept the God described in the Old Testament.

I agree with Scott in that the religion is less important to me than a relationship with the God that YOU understand for moral and spiritual guidance.

Freakingkansas,
Thanks for your post.
I hope and pray you will do well and be bless in Christianity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

What ever you decide is best for you, I hope it works for you!

Yes,
I agree with Talaniman.
Peace and kindness,:) :) :)
Fred (arcura)

Comments on this post

RickJ (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/rickj.html) agrees: Even as a rabid Catholic Christian I agree! :)


They have shots for that ::: ducking ::: <eg>

Yes, I know well there is medicine for that. We call it the Eucharist :D

Touché! :p :p

Peace and Blessings, Scott!

As a dedicated Catholic I agree.
The Eucharist works wonders of grace.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I have no religion yet and I am 15. My parents decided when i was born to let me pick my own religion but I can't decide. Is it possible for me to go to hell because I dont have a religion? I beleive in god and everything but it seems everytime I start to learn something about a religion it either scares me or I disagree with something. I feel so confused.
Dear Animulover06,

I was raised in a Catholic church. I was told that God was not going to let me into heaven unless I was good. As a parent, I thought the same as your parents had. I thought I would let my children decide for themselves. God, however, had different plans. He came very abruptly into my life, but very sweetly and quietly too. It is possible to go to hell without Jesus Christ. He is not religion, Child. He is the way the Truth and the Life. No one goes to the Father except through Him. The Holy Scriptures which are breathed by God alone and will stand forever state, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.", and "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." the word "believe" in the Hebrew language means to trust or to obey. If you are looking, it means He is calling you. No one can look for God on their own initiative. Only God can create that desire in you. Don't be afraid or confused. If you have a Bible, start looking and praying. God knows you. God loves you beyond measure. His love and ways are different than ours, so don't look for love the way we love. His is boundless, endless, and everlasting. Many questions will come up. Write to me if you want. I'm here to help. I have been seeking the Lord for 11 years now. I am secure in Him and trust Him completely. Keep seeking. I trust you are in His hands alone. Choose wisely and don't be fooled into other religions. They are all spinoffs of the one true hope. That is Jesus Christ. The reason so many oppose it is because it is of God. The road is wide to destruction (hell) and the path is narrow to salvation. Keep seeking. Trust God. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ alone.

Dear Animulover06,

I was raised in a Catholic church. I was told that God was not going to let me into heaven unless I was good. As a parent, I thought the same as your parents had. I thought I would let my children decide for themselves. God, however, had different plans. He came very abruptly into my life, but very sweetly and quietly too. It is possible to go to hell without Jesus Christ. He is not religion, Child. He is the way the Truth and the Life. No one goes to the Father except through Him. The Holy Scriptures which are breathed by God alone and will stand forever state, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.", and "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." the word "believe" in the Hebrew language means to trust or to obey. If you are looking, it means He is calling you. No one can look for God on their own initiative. Only God can create that desire in you. Don't be afraid or confused. If you have a Bible, start looking and praying. God knows you. God loves you beyond measure. His love and ways are different than ours, so don't look for love the way we love. His is boundless, endless, and everlasting. Many questions will come up. Write to me if you want. I'm here to help. I have been seeking the Lord for 11 years now. I am secure in Him and trust Him completely. Keep seeking. I trust you are in His hands alone. Choose wisely and don't be fooled into other religions. They are all spinoffs of the one true hope. That is Jesus Christ. The reason so many oppose it is because it is of God. The road is wide to destruction (hell) and the path is narrow to salvation. Keep seeking. Trust God. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ alone.
__________________
Micsadaisy :)

Choose wisely and don't be fooled into other religions. They are all spinoffs of the one true hope. That is Jesus Christ. The reason so many oppose it is because it is of God.
__________________
Micsadaisy :)

I am happy that you are secure and comfortable in yoiur beliefs. But I believe you do others a disservice by putting down their beliefs as you have in the above quote. Especially when its inaccurate. Christianity is actually a spinoff of Judaism, NOT the other way around.

People "oppose" Christianity mostly because they have found something else that resonates with them as Christianity resonates with you. To say that Christianity is the only one and true hope is to show intolerance towards others.

wow thats kinda kool how people are still posting here. It is interesting to see what each person has to say about this. ^-^

Choose wisely and don't be fooled into other religions.

And don't be fooled by those that profess to know the truth, as long as you agree with their idea of the truth, your okay with them, but just think on your own or don't toe their line, then they condemn you to eternal damnation. There are those in all religions by the way.

Okay, Scott, Micsadummy... I am sorry for not using the right words.
Spinoff was not the correct term. I will fix that with animulover06.
Apology accepted I hope. And in the future I will be more careful to
use proper terms. I will not apologize for my comments about Jesus
Christ being the only way. He is. There is no other way to reach eternal
life. To tolerate any other explanation about that would be wrong. I
am not a politically correct person but do not seek to maliciously harm
anyone else. If the truth hurts or is not accepted, then that will be
between you and God on the day of judgement. Know that now is the time
to believe, not afterwards when we all finally know the truth. Have a
good day, ScottGem. :)

First, If you want to reply to a thread, use the reply functions. E-mails or PMs should be used only for correspondence of a personal nature.

Second, it wasn't a matter of using the wrong word, but making an incorrect statement. You used the right word for what you were trying to say, but what you were saying is incorrect. Christianity is an outgrowth of Judaism. Its based on the Old Testament. But there are really no religions that "spin off" from Christianity. Judaism is the basis of both Christanity and Islam. Buddhism, Hinduism and other religions are both older than Christianity and stem from different beliefs so there is no "spin off".

Finally, No one is asking you to apologize for your beliefs. If you want to believe what you do and find comfort in it, then I'm happy for you. What you should apologize for is your intolerance. To believe that one can only be "saved" by worshipping a particular way is arrogant.

I've stated before that I don't believe in organized religion. But I do believe that if there is a God watching over us. A God that lifts us to heaven or condemns us to hell on a judgement day. Then such a god would not care HOW we worship him as long as we do worship him.

In my opinion God exists within each of us. In the beauty and intricacy of nature and the world. In the first smile on a newborn's face. In the first bloom of flowers in the spring. In the unique patterns of a snowflake. In the love one can feel for another being. God exists in the way we treat other people. And to tell someone else that they way they choose to worship God is wrong and not the truth, is to mistreat and abuse them. How anyone can take the universal love message of Jesus Christ and pervert it into a my way or the highway attitude is beyond me.

Choose wisely and don't be fooled into other religions.

If you see me in line going through the Pearly Gate, don't feel bad about saying HI.

Micsadaisy,
I agree with your post to Animeluver06 the 15 year old.
The search for good Christian religious experience MUST be with and through Jesus Christ in regard to what he did, taught, and demonstrated via word ad deed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

What about a good spiritual experience that has nothing to do with religion at all? Or a relationship with the GOD that you understand that has no religion?

talaniman,
Is there such a thing?
To me everything spiritual is in some way religious because some form of spiritual belief is needed to have a spiritual experience.

God has no religion, and neither do I so I disgree that religion is needed.

Micsadaisy,
I agree with your post to Animeluver06 the 15 year old.
The search for good Christian religious experience MUST be with and through Jesus Christ in regard to what he did, taught, and demonstrated via word ad deed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Yes, the search for a good CHRISTIAN experience would be through Christ. Obviously, since Christianity is based on the belief in Christ as the son of God.

But that doesn't mean that a good RELIGIOUS experience needs to be through Christ. There are many ways to have a good RELIGIOUS experience without worshipping Jesus Christ. That's the mistake that Micsadaisy makes.

And its even possible In my opinion, to have a good spiritual experience without adhereing to any organized religion.

talaniman,
Is there such a thing?
To me everything spiritual is in some way religious becuase some form of spiritual belief is needed to have a spiritual experience.

I can hardly believe you said that acura- I was thinking along the same lines.
Even the devil believes there's a God. I wonder what kind of relationship someone can have with God when they do not have the Holy Spirit! I was like that once. I could even talk to God-but never got any recognition-God was so distant. He wasn't close, in my heart.
And most of all I wasn't obeying what He said about his Son or believing His Word(the Bible)
My spirit was dead. :(

Retrotia,
I don't believe in any of those things yet my spirit is very much alive and happy. There are alternatives to being fundamentalist.

Retrotia,
I don't believe in any of those things yet my spirit is very much alive and happy. There are alternatives to being fundamentalist.

I'm sorry, I thought you were a Christian. But then again your username should have been a clue to me.

I'm not a fundamentalist. But then again, I'd rather be that then a far-left liberal. Just a thought. :)

Good day People:

We as Christians, or at least myself, have a hope that is undefiled and imperishable. You can label it anything you want. God labels it faith. Jehovah God, He is my father, not yours who don't believe. There is truth and there is lie. There are no gray areas. You can take the truth and seek with all your heart, soul, and strength, or you can choose to reject it. It is up to you. Our God and Father, the Lord Jesus Christ has given us all a choice. You all have a choice, however, God has also highly exalted Him (Jesus) and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of God the Father." There is no room for Buddha's name, or Alla or any other, so you choose, but in the end, you will have no more time to make a choice.

Those who do not choose God will not be forced to reside in the heavenly realm with Him. He will never use His power to force anyone into submission. He will simply put you away where you will never have to listen to Him again and neither will He have to listen to you.

Be reminded. He loves you immensly and does not wish to be apart from you. There is a way to worship the one and only true God, Scott. It is through Spirit and Truth. You cannot worship what you do not know. Read Romans 1.

Good Day to you all.

[QUOTE=ScottGem]I just noticed this thread and frankly I am both thrilled and appalled by some of the posts here. The posts by Irulan and Orange were especially intelligent and thoughtful. Excuse me, but both the New Testament and the Koran start with the Old Testament, what the Jewish religion calls The Bible.

As to Heaven and Hell being very real as Boswee and Fr Chuck claim. I would like to know how you know that. Have you been there? Have you spoken to anyone who has been there? The fact is you BELIEVE they exist based on your faith in words that were written down by men purporting to be the "Word of God". You are entitled to your beliefs and what you believe in may be true. But to express them as irrefutable fact is just wrong.



We go by faith, Scott, and not by sight. The Bible was written by men but 'breathed' by God. It is the infallible Word of God and it will never leave our world. We are charged to go forth and make disciples of the nation, proclaiming the TRUTHS set therein.


Our faith is not organized religion. You would not know because you do not believe...

We as Christians, or at least myself, have a hope that is undefiled and imperishable. You can label it anything you want. God labels it faith. Jehovah God, He is my father, not yours who don't believe. There is truth and there is lie. There are no gray areas. You can take the truth and seek with all your heart, soul, and strength, or you can choose to reject it. It is up to you. Our God and Father, the Lord Jesus Christ has given us all a choice. You all have a choice, however, God has also highly exalted Him (Jesus) and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of God the Father." There is no room for Buddha's name, or Alla or any other, so you choose, but in the end, you will have no more time to make a choice.

Those who do not choose God will not be forced to reside in the heavenly realm with Him. He will never use His power to force anyone into submission. He will simply put you away where you will never have to listen to Him again and neither will He have to listen to you.

Be reminded. He loves you immensly and does not wish to be apart from you. There is a way to worship the one and only true God, Scott. It is through Spirit and Truth. You cannot worship what you do not know. Read Romans 1.

Try and have a good, Scott. Micsadaisy and others are praying for you. See if He doesn't keep tapping on your door. Don't answer it if you don't want to be placed on the side of Truth.

Don't answer it if you don't want to be placed on the side of Truth.We are on the side of the truth whether you tell us so or not.

But then again, I'd rather be that then a far-left liberal. Just a thought. :)Being a far-anything is bad in my opinion. It puts you in the "fanatic (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fanatic)" department and clouds one's judgement in all matters.

Hey my mate believes in God as well which I respect him for because I have a completely different religion to him but he swears and drinks and watches porn but he loves God he believes in heaven and hell, he reads the bible and memorises it, he goes to church and helps them out there (in fact he's gone to help out this easter) but its just a stereotypical view of the christian society, that something slightly sinful is wrong, God is more likely to forgive you for little things as long as you know you have done wrong.

Being a far-anything is bad in my opinion. It puts you in the "fanatic (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fanatic)" department and clouds one's judgement in all matters.

Well then, I wouldn't want to be that obviously. But you didn't say- if you are a Christian or not.

hey my mate believes in God as well which i respect him for because i have a completely different religion to him but he swears and drinks and watches porn but he loves God he believes in heaven and hell, he reads the bible and memorises it, he goes to church and helps them out there (in fact hes gone to help out this easter) but its just a stereotypical view of the christian society, that something slightly sinful is wrong, God is more likely to forgive you for little things as long as you know you have done wrong.

Well, sounds like only your mate knows if he has accepted Jesus or not.

See, the problem is: when someone believes in the Bible(the Word of God) and they engage in pornography-abuse alcohol & the like. What happens is they will always being getting consequences in their life for sin. Namely lust, & sexual immorality. So the more mature someone gets in the Faith the more they learn these things.
If someone isn't in the Faith, as you might imagine- their not covered by the blood Of Christ--& the consequences for them can be worse- the Devil can have a field day with that person & their consequences can be much worse.

We go by faith, Scott, and not by sight.


There is a way to worship the one and only true God, Scott. It is through Spirit and Truth. You cannot worship what you do not know. Read Romans 1.

Don't answer it if you don't want to be placed on the side of Truth.

You just don't get it, do you? You and all the other evangelistic proselytizers who are intolerant of anyone else who doesn't share your beliefs. If I can be happy that you are comfortable in your beliefs why can't you be comfortable that others are happy with theirs?

I agree, you go by faith. And, unlike you, I believe you are entitled to your beliefs and your faith. But truth requires facts. You can't have truth were there is no verification.

If you do not go by sight then you do not see. I know many Christians who are strong in their beliefs yet humanist and tolerant to allow others their own beliefs. When I was growing up, my family attended the Brotherhood Synagogue in NYC. This synagogue shared its building with an Episcopal church. We respected each others religions and each other's rights to worship as they believe.

The golden rule is Do unto others as you would have then do unto you. Would you like it others told you their way was the only true way? Would you like it if others told you that your soul would be lost if you don't embrace their god?

Then how can pervert the teachings of Christ to be so intolerant?

I can hardly believe you said that acura- I was thinking along the same lines.
Even the devil believes there's a God.
I Don't know what the devil believes nor do I care and since you know him better than I, I will take your word for it.
I wonder what kind of relationship someone can have with God when they do not have the Holy Spirit!
Not knowing the relationship then what makes you think I have no Holy spirit?
I was like that once.
You should have remain so.
I could even talk to God
Quite often actually
-but never got any recognition-God was so distant
Yes that will happen if your heart and mind are closed.
. He wasn't close, in my heart.
That was your short coming, all you have to do is open your mind and heart to HIM.
And most of all I wasn't obeying what He said about his Son or believing His Word(the Bible)
Therein lies your problem, You obeyed ancient man instead of going right to the source.
My spirit was dead. :(
What do you expect when your heart and mind are closed and you have no relationship with the GOD you can understand. I will pray and ask for your enlightenment. Don't give up hope. :)

You just don't get it, do you? You and all the other evangelistic proselytizers who are intolerant of anyone else who doesn't share your beliefs. If I can be happy that you are comfortable in your beliefs why can't you be comfortable that others are happy with theirs?

I agree, you go by faith. And, unlike you, I believe you are entitled to your beliefs and your faith. But truth requires facts. You can't have truth were there is no verification.

If you do not go by sight then you do not see. I know many Christians who are strong in their beliefs yet humanist and tolerant to allow others their own beliefs. When I was growing up, my family attended the Brotherhood Synagogue in NYC. This synagogue shared its building with an Episcopal church. We respected each others religions and each other's rights to worship as they believe.

The golden rule is Do unto others as you would have then do unto you. Would you like it others told you their way was the only true way? Would you like it if others told you that your soul would be lost if you don't embrace their god?

Then how can pervert the teachings of Christ to be so intolerant?


Scott, you are so angry. It is not my goal to anger others. I simply reply where I am lead. It is not my way or my words or my teaching. It is Christs teaching. In the book of John, he says, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life, he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." I'm not pushing my views on any one. I'm not a pushy person. God is the only one that can save anyone. We don't save ourselves, no ones religion can save them, nothing you can do can save you. You must believe in the Son. The one that died for you. The only one who fully and truly knows you and loves you. He has called me to proclaim that truth. For those that embrace Him are saved, for those who reject Him are not. It is true. It hurts because it doesn't leave room for us to play God. It leaves no room for that at all. Please forgive me for having angered you. I don't apologize for telling the truth. But honestly I say these things because I know what God says of those who reject His Son. I'll let my Father in Heaven take it from here. May He who is in heaven and all around remove the scales from your eyes that you may see the glory of His one and only Son, Jesus Christ. May it touch your heart so deeply that it leaves no room for doubt. With love for you Scott...

I can hardly believe you said that acura- I was thinking along the same lines.
Even the devil believes there's a God.
I Don't know what the devil believes nor do I care and since you know him better than I, I will take your word for it.
I wonder what kind of relationship someone can have with God when they do not have the Holy Spirit!?
Not knowing the relationship then what makes you think I have no Holy spirit?
I was like that once.
You should have remain so.
I could even talk to God
Quite often actually
-but never got any recognition-God was so distant
Yes that will happen if your heart and mind are closed.
. He wasn't close, in my heart.
That was your short coming, all you have to do is open your mind and heart to HIM.
And most of all I wasn't obeying what He said about his Son or believing His Word(the Bible)
Therein lies your problem, You obeyed ancient man instead of going right to the source.
My spirit was dead. :(
What do you expect when your heart and mind are closed and you have no relationship with the GOD you can understand. I will pray and ask for your enlightenment. Don't give up hope. :)

You receive the Holy Spirit when you accept Jesus. Your disrespect, pride, & lack of compassion is obvious that you are not a child of God. I need to pray for you that you find Jesus because you need His fruit in your life!

Scott, you are so angry. It is not my goal to anger others.

Yes I am angry. If its not yoiur goal then why do you do it? How would you feel if I told you that you would not be saved unless you believe the way I do? Wouldn't that anger you? I asked you that before, but you dodge that issue.


I'm not pushing my views on any one. I'm not a pushy person.

Yes you are!! Can't you see that? By telling anyone who doesn't believe the way you do, that they will not be saved, that they do not see the "truth". That is pushing your views. I'm not telling you that you are wrong. I've said from the beginning that I respect your beliefs and am happy you find comfort in them. But please accord me the same respect. If you don't (and so far you haven't), then you are pushing your views.


You must believe in the Son. The one that died for you. The only one who fully and truly knows you and loves you. He has called me to proclaim that truth.

This is just another example. "you MUST beleive", he "died for you", "proclaim that truth". These are all statements that challenge anyone who doesn't believe the way you do. They proclaim to anyone that they are wrong in their beliefs. You speak about "truth" when there is no proof, only faith.


For those that embrace Him are saved, for those who reject Him are not. It is true. It hurts because it doesn't leave room for us to play God. It leaves no room for that at all. Please forgive me for having angered you. I don't apologize for telling the truth. But honestly I say these things because I know what God says of those who reject His Son. I'll let my Father in Heaven take it from here. May He who is in heaven and all around remove the scales from your eyes that you may see the glory of His one and only Son, Jesus Christ. May it touch your heart so deeply that it leaves no room for doubt. With love for you Scott...

Don't apologize for telling the truth. But DO apologize for proselytizing. Do apologize for pushing your beliefs down the throats of people who choose an alternative belief. Do apologize for calling your faith the truth when you haven't a clue what truth is.

If there is one thing I worship it IS truth. But truth (for me) requires verification. Tangible facts and/or logical processes that proves the statement. You have nothing but what was written in the Bible to support your "truth". It may, in fact, be true or it may be just the wishful thinking of a bunch of ancients. I don't know and you don't KNOW.

So, if you don't want to anger people, if you don't want to appear pushy then couch your remarks in terms of "this is what I believe..." Not in terms of this is what is and what is truth. Because it IS truth that when you do that, you WILL anger people who don't believe as you do.

You receive the Holy Spirit when you accept Jesus. Your disrespect, pride, & lack of compassion is obvious that you are not a child of God. I need to pray for you that you find Jesus bc you need His fruit in your life!

The only disrespect and lack of compassion here is from you and the other proslyetizers who refuse to accept that there may be other ways then yours. Most of the people here who don't believe as you do, respect your right to your beliefs. We don't tell you that you will be damned if you don't believe the way we do. We don't tell you you have to believe the way we do. We only ask that you respect our RIGHT to believe the way we do.

Is that asking too much?

You receive the Holy Spirit when you accept Jesus. Your disrespect, pride, & lack of compassion is obvious that you are not a child of God. I need to pray for you that you find Jesus bc you need His fruit in your life!

Get with the truth, your false proclamation of deliverence, falls on deaf ears as you obviously believe the crap your spewing, but I will pray you open your heart and get the salvation your looking for. Look within and find peace and understanding.

Yes, the search for a good CHRISTIAN experience would be thru Christ. Obviously, since Christianity is based on the beleif in Christ as the son of God.

But that doesn't mean that a good RELIGIOUS experience needs to be thru Christ. There are many ways to have a good RELIGIOUS experience without worshipping Jesus Christ. That's the mistake that Micsadaisy makes.

And its even possible IMHO, to have a good spiritual experience without adhereing to any organized religion.

Yea, I see what you're saying Scott, Kind of like really good sex, only, without a partner.

I have no religion yet and I am 15. My parents decided when i was born to let me pick my own religion but I can't decide. Is it possible for me to go to hell because I dont have a religion? I beleive in god and everything but it seems everytime I start to learn something about a religion it either scares me or I disagree with something. I feel so confused.

Stay away from religion get close to Jesus

Your sincere question is a sign that you are in the quest for truth and will be accepting of it when it is presented to you. May God bless your pure intentions and guide us all to the straight path.

Islam is a verb and literally means submitting to the will of God in peace. This is unlike most of the major religions that are named after a person or place, e.g. Judah-Judaism, Christ-Christianity, Buddha-Buddhism, Indus Valley-Hinduism, etc. So Islam is an active verb and the one who submits is a doer of Islam or an Islamer. In Arabic there is a prefix 'mu' like the suffix 'er' in English. So a Mu-islam or Muslim is one who submits his/her will to the will of his Lord. All the Prophets sent by God to guide humanity from the time of Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to Jesus and Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all) were muslims in the true sense because they devoted their lives to the God's mission - to take mankind from darkness to light!

Ready to DO Islam? :)

My answer will be simple to you. You should worry about which religion to choose because God won't judge you by your religion but by the kind of life you are living. I suggest that you pray to God with a sincere heart and ask Him to give you guidance. Don't let anyone trap you by convincing to join their religion. God is not in religion but inside of His people.

fitnahpolice,
To answer your question, "Ready to do Islam?"
My answer is a definite NO!
I am already committed to the one true Triune God of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, there is no other.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

fitnahpolice,
To answer your question, "Ready to do Islam?"
My answer is a definite NO!
I am already committed to the one true Triune God of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, there is no other.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

So you're not ready to submit your will to the will of God? :confused:

so you're not ready to submit your will to the will of God? :confused:

Not yours ;)

so you're not ready to submit your will to the will of God? :confused:

Another totally biased and also an intolerant statement. I, for one, am not willing to submit MY will to any entity. I prefer to exercise my own will.

And just because I don't believe in YOUR interpretation of the "will of God", does not mean I don't have my own interpretation that I adhere to.

Islam, like Christianity, is still based on the Old Testament. The "will of God" was expressed in the Ten Commandments and everything else has stemmed from them. I believe, that as long as I follow those commandments, I will be considered a moral, righteous person. In the eyes of God and the eyes of my fellow beings. I don't need to adhere to a lot of minute rules about how to live my daily life to be the kind of person that I believe God and I want me to be.

One of the qualities that I believe God wants me to show is tolerance.

so you're not ready to submit your will to the will of God? :confused:

The God that I understands requires no submission, but gives me free choice to follow his guidance.

When Fitna police mention about hinduism , he says it is connected with indus valley. But the original name OF hinduism is not hinduism, it is SANADHANA DHARMA- means ETERNAL VALUES.

That statement is so flawed Fr Chuck. From that statement, you are saying that the Jewish religion has gotten it all wrong. Jews don’t believe in hell.

And you made my point. Organized religions do differ from Christians to Jews to Islam to etc. No one knows which one is really right. Although there will be some people who believe that their way is the right way.
Jews believed in "sheol" where the dead live in shadows this was where your soul would stay in eternity. However jews now believe that you are judged and are then sent to places like heaven and hell

Be nice if us humans could understand each other, and get the same language, as the small things become lost in the translations it seems, and its hard to know if your on the same page or not.

fitnahpolice,
Long ago I submitter to the one and only true God who had a son named Jesus.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

fitnahpolice and arcura, One day you may have to live with the fact you both have the same God, Especially since you both concede there is only ONE!

talaniman,
Maybe so.
But
That ain't necessarily so.
There is really only one true God, any others as fakes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Same bible same God

There is really only one true God, any others as fakes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Frankly I find the above rather hypocritical. You preach peace and kindness at the same time that you promote intolerance. I just don't understand how you (or anyone) can reconcile that. Either you practice what you preach or admit to yourself that you are intolerant and antagonistic.

Frankly I find the above rather hypocritical. You preach peace and kindness at the same time that you promote intolerance. I just don't understand how you (or anyone) can reconcile that. Either you practice what you preach or admit to yourself that you are intolerant and antagonistic.
Frankly, I find your response very critical & angry. I think acura speaks his peace rather well.
You have only to lose your anger & find a happy place. Admit to your own self that your accusations toward acura are something you dreamed up-& that you are being selfish!

Frankly, I find your response very critical & angry. I think acura speaks his peace rather well.
You have only to lose your anger & find a happy place. Admit to your own self that your accusations toward acura are something you dreamed up-& that you are being selfish!

Excuse me? Please explain to me the logic that says you can promote peace and kindness at the same time you preach antagonism and intolerance? Do you deny that that someone who says there is only one true god and that's the Christian one is being intolerant of other religions? Do you deny that when you tell someone their religion is wrong, you are attacking their beliefs?

If you can reconcile those things with preaching peace and kindness, I would certainly like to hear it.

I think you are guilty of exactly what you are saying of someone else. Acura has a right to his beliefs also.
You are not showing any peace or kindness. You are describing what you hate- & it's pointed towards another.
If you don't want to hear it- change the channel.

I think you are guilty of exactly what you are saying of someone else. acura has a right to his beliefs also.
You are not showing any peace or kindness. You are describing what you hate- & it's pointed towards another.
If you don't want to hear it- change the channel.

Boy have you got me wrong. I don't know where you get the idea that I hate anything here. I respect Fred's beliefs. I am very glad that he is happy and comforted by his beliefs. I have not, nor will I ask him to believe anything different. But that's where the big difference lies. I respect his beliefs, but he doesn't respect mine. I don't challenge his beliefs. I don't say his beliefs are wrong. I only ask that he acknowledge that other people are entitled to have their own beliefs. I ask that he show tolerance for their right to believe differently than he.I ask that, if he truly believes in peace and kindness, that he not attack what others believe.

I asked, in my previous response, that you explain what logic there is in preaching peace and kindness, yet showing antagonism and intolerance. I asked if you can deny the actions I cited. I notice that you did not respond to that.

All I ask is that others show the respect for my right to believe the way I choose. As I respect their rights to do the same. I simply maintain that ANYONE who preaches peace and kindness but continually attacks the beliefs of others is being hypocritical.

The only thing I see here is my christian brothers, balking at admitting that they worship the same God as my muslim brothers. That was the question, not this personal stuff. What's the problem?

talaniman,
I went there and saw that.
I do believe that Allah is NOT the God Almighty mentioned in the Hoy Bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

arcura and Retrotia,
Your god is not a true one, just a fake idol invented by man

Cheers,

Me.

arcura and Retrotia,
Your god is not a true one, just a fake idol invented by man

Cheers,

Me.

Your so funny

talaniman,
I went there and saw that.
I do believe that Allah is NOT the God Almighty mentioned in the Hoy Bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Your assumption doesn't fly in the face of the facts. Sorry but if it's the God of the same bible, how can they be different? Are you rejecting the tenets of your own bible as put forth in the old testament? Or are you rejecting the fact that you and the muslims are alike except for the traditional dogma that is found in all religious sects? Or has God given you permission to have your own church?

talaniman,
I went there and saw that.
I do believe that Allah is NOT the God Almighty mentioned in the Hoy Bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,
I am glad that you are comfortable and comforted by your beliefs. I do have to agree with Talaniman, that they do contradict the fact that both the New Testament and the Koran follow-up on the Old Testament. The fact that the God who you believe fathered Christ is the same God that is mentioned in Genesis. The fact that the Allah referred to in the Koran, is also the same God mentioned in Genesis.

But if you want to believe differently then I can respect that. But I must, again, ask that you respect my beliefs.

Dear ScottGem,
I am glad you're feeling better today as your response is more readable & reasonable.

I hope you will respect that I do not believe that Allah is the same God as in the Bible.

I respect that many Muslims do believe that- but with some knowledge on the subject- I personally believe they need Jesus for their salvation.

I'll let you have the last word- however, I'd like you (and all) to start to read up on the history of the Koran & Mohammed.
Untitled Document (http://www.islamreview.com/articles/whyallahprint.htm)

Have a pleasant day!

Sorry this article will tell you nothing, but the slanted propaganda of one who is not a scholar, nor an authority and if you believe it as fact, you need to at least do more research.


I personally believe they need Jesus for their salvation.


They like you are awaiting his second coming.

Okay what's the real reason that some christians cannot reconcile their relationship with islam, or judaism for that matter?? Do you feel superior or what??

Dear ScottGem,
I am glad you're feeling better today as your response is more readable & reasonable.

I hope you will respect that I do not believe that Allah is the same God as in the Bible.

I respect that many Muslims do believe that- but with some knowledge on the subject- I personally believe they need Jesus for their salvation.

I'll let you have the last word- however, I'd like you (and all) to start to read up on the history of the Koran & Mohammed.
Untitled Document (http://www.islamreview.com/articles/whyallahprint.htm)

Have a pleasant day!

Excuse me? My responses are almost always readable and reasonable. I'm feeling no better or worse then I did when I posted my previous responses.

I do respect your right to believe how you wish. I always have. I took a look at the page you linked to and the first question it asks leaped out at me:

Why did Allah convey his revelations to Angel Gabriel and this Angel had to carry Allah's revelations to Muhammad in such an indirect monologue, as stated in the Quran?

So the Quran states that Allah spoke to Gabriel. But isn't Gabriel an Archangel considered a messenger of God from the Book of Daniel? Isn't he considered similarly in the New Testament. Since all three religions consider Gabriel as a messenger of God, then it stands to reason, all three refer to the same God.

Let me separate this out for. Lets look at this form the standpoint of what is fact and what is belief. It is a fact, irrefutable, that the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Quran refer to the same entity (call it Jehovah, God, Allah or whatever) as their god. An reading of those writings confirm that.

However, whether one believes that Allah truly made a devine revelation to Mohammed, or that Christ is the son of God that is a different issue. As a Jew, I believe neither. I respect your right (and Fred's) to believe in Jesus. But please try to separate what is fact from what is belief.

stay away from religion get close to Jesus
This come real close to bigotry concerning other religions. This site is no place to proselytize a certain religion or belief. Look at ALL religions Retrotia and pick the one you're most comfortable with. Or you can study religions as I did and pick none at all. Good luck in whatever you decide. Tom

These threads on religion, always seem to perplex me. God is all about love and in some post, seems to be the furthest thing evident. Sorry, not being judgemental here, just an observation.

Hate to break it to everyone, but God loves us all. No such thing as your God, my God, his God, to me, and only my opinion, there is a God, and He is loving, kind and merciful. He loves all of us no matter what religion is stamped on our forehead.

To me, all religions are like different roads that lead to God.

Nothing is more scarey to me, than someone getting so angry and dare I say unkind, when they are trying to "convince" someone that their God is the only God and their religion is The religion. Not something I would want to sign up to.

I respect all faiths and I know that all faiths believe and worship God.

Others will be more apt to hear what you have to say, when it is done in a loving way. I am just so amazed at the level of upset that is demonstrated in some of these threads, when the subject matter is about God and religion.