As I said before, God is so huge and so far beyond our knowing that we cannot begin to imagine who he is and what he can do.

So every time we run into a contradiction about God that defies logic, you're going to wiggle out of it by simply decreeing Him outside the physical laws of the universe and therefore immune from our questions.

Well, isn't that just too easy?

If God knows you will die tomorrow, is He powerless to prevent it? You can't have it both ways. Either God is omniscient, or omnipotent. He can't be both.


What kind of reasoning is that?. lol why should God prevent your death? If its your time to go it is your time to go. God does in some cases prevent people from dying like he did my brother.

So every time we run into a contradiction about God that defies logic, you're going to wiggle out of it by simply decreeing that He stands outside the physical laws of the universe and is therefore immune from our questions.

Well, isn't that just too easy?!

Of course.. What is logic? Your perception of "logic" is based on the fact that you are a human being who possesses very limited knowledge. A human being who is bound by time and the laws of Physics. If hypothetically for your sake we say that God does exists, what makes you think that a being powerful and super intelligent enough to create a universe like ours, would be bound by the same laws that bind us human beings. God created time and physics, why would he be bound by it? So your "logic" argument hold no weight when it comes to God because your logic is founded on microscopic humanistic views.

people that believe in God lack education In one source 41% of people that went to high school believe the Bible as the word of God, only 2 % of people that graduate college believe the bible is the wrod of God. that should tell you something. there are thousands of Gods that have come and gone way before your god. The good news for athiests is that we are growing. Worldwide we number about 1 billion growing very quickly. In the U.S one of the last countries that is holding on to religions but that is changing. In 1990 we numbered 14.2 million in 2001 just under 30 million as of 2006 42 million Athiests have grown at a shocking rate. At this rate maybe in 10 years we will be a third or even half the population of America. I think one reason is the internet.

workerbee.
That's a bold statement! Christians are uneducated? So our lack of intelligence is the reason we believe in God? Wow! How wrong you are. So, by your standards, statistics should influence my belief? So let's "run with the crowd" as if this were in High school... and have no mind of our own?
You say there were thousands of Gods that came and went before my God.. How do you know this? Your text books?
Well the good news for christians is that because atheists are growing it only means, to us, that this is part of a fulfilling of a prophecy. The Lord is building up an army and he is coming back for us. So it doesn't hurt my feelings any... it does however, make me sad for those who don't know him

[QUOTE=templelane]When you think about it everybody is an atheist, it's just that technically athiests as are commonaly describes believe in one less god than a Christian.

I think you need to be reminded of the definition of atheism.

a·the·ism (ā'thē-ĭz'əm)
n.
Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

Christians and other thiests don't believe in the athiestic doctrine that there is no God or god's, so don't try and make us part of your religion.







I haven't seen anyone worshipping Zeus recently...

Yes but you have seen billions of people worshiping the One True God Jehovah. :)


So when somebody says I don't understand how you cannot believe because (insert any comment from the why I believe in God posts). Then they have to consider they already do understand- they have not been believing in loads of gods since they were born, and continue to do so today.

Yes, and You have not believed in ANY god and that what sets you apart as an atheist.

[QUOTE=workerbee]people that believe in God lack education

I am starting to wonder whether you even have a fifth grade education with an ignorant statement like this... lol


In one source 41% of people that went to high school believe the Bible as the word of God, only 2 % of people that graduate college believe the bible is the word of God. That should tell you something.

I don't know where you get your stats from but people who attend christian schools are better of than those who don't. Catholic schools are known to be some of the best schools world wide.
How many colleges and universities were founded by Christians to encourage higher education? Harvard? Yale? Yes and yes. So please don't continue to embarasse yourself with such ignorants.;)

So every time we run into a contradiction about God that defies logic, you're going to wiggle out of it by simply decreeing Him outside the physical laws of the universe and therefore immune from our questions.

Well, isn't that just too easy?!

We're only human and have neither the words or even the conceptual skills to define God. Mankind (and smarter people than we are) has struggled fruitlessly for millennia to find answers for the same questions you are asking. The questions certainly won't be answered on AMHD!

When something bad happens, we did it. Mother Nature also is guilty.
------------------------------------------
I thing god and mother nature are sleeping together. God is all powerful, god sees all and he loves us... God sees a little 3 year old girl starve to death in her home after her Mommy has a heart attack.
What a wonderful God you have.

The good news for athiests is that we are growing. Worldwide we number about 1 billion growing very quickly. In the U.S one of the last countries that is holding on to religions but that is changing. In 1990 we numbered 14.2 million in 2001 just under 30 million as of 2006 42 million Athiests have grown at a shocking rate. At this rate maybe in 10 years we will be a third or even half the population of America. I think one reason is the internet.

Workerbee.

Sorry to burst your bubble Workerbee but athiests only account for about 5% at best of the world's population. That mean at least 90% of the world population are rational enough to acknowledge that there is one deity or another.
Im afraid atheism is not the fastest growing faith as you presume. Christianity is the fastest growing faith by converts and Islam is the fastest growing religion by births. So don't get too happy..

Cue George Carlin's wonderful take on religion:
(warning: contains language not suitable for all): YouTube - George Carlin - Religion is bull. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o)

Sorry to burst your bubble Workerbee but athiests only account for about 5% at best of the world's population. That mean atleast 90% of the world population are rational enough to acknowledge that there is one diety or another.
Im afraid athiesm is not the fastest growing faith as you presume. Christianity is the fastest growing faith by converts and Islam is the fastest growing religion by births. So dont get too happy..
--------------------
I don't think a bubble was burst here. He never said that it was the fastest growing, but thank you so much for showing us our piece of the pie. Just think, one day we will have even more of the pie. Yes, we are at a disadvantage in regards to us not grabbing our children out of the cradle and bringing them to our group meetings and what not. But, somehow are numbers are growing none the less.

I'm certainly not part of anything because it's popular. I do my own thinking.

[QUOTE=Greg Quinn]--------------------
I don't think a bubble was burst here. He never said that it was the fastest growing, but thank you so much for showing us our piece of the pie. Just think, one day we will have even more of the pie.

Lol.. one day in a million years. Your rate of growth is not enough to make a significant difference. Christianity it the largest religion in the world and the fastest growing so those figures on the chart are actually understated.


Yes, we are at a disadvantage in regards to us not grabbing our children out of the cradle and bringing them to our group meetings and what not. But, somehow are numbers are growing none the less.

Hey, if you are happy with 3 people a decade converting to the athiestic faith, then good for you. We have at least 38 people a week give their lives to Christ in our church alone.

What kind of reasoning is that? ...lol why should God prevent your death? If its your time to go it is your time to go. God does in some cases prevent people from dying like he did my brother.

The question has nothing to do with death. Suppose God knows He will have lunch at McDonald's on Thursday. Does this mean He is powerless to change His mind and have lunch somewhere else?

The properties of omniscience and omnipotence cannot simultaneously exist, just as surely as a square circle cannot exist.

[QUOTE]

Hey, if you are happy with 3 people a decade converting to the athiestic faith, then good for you.

We're not recruiting. Also we don't brainwash children.

[QUOTE]

I am starting to wonder whether you even have a fifth grade education with an ignorant statement like this... lol



I don't know where you get your stats from but people who attend christian schools are better of than those who don't. Catholic schools are known to be some of the best schools world wide.
How many colleges and universities were founded by Christians to encourage higher education? Harvard? Yale? Yes and yes. So please don't continue to embarasse yourself with such ignorants.;)

There was a brief time when I thought your propensity to deny the obvious was cute and even charming. But it gets old quick Sassy.

It is a FACT that post-graduates are significantly less likely to believe in things like the supernatural and that includes gods. Look up a Harris poll if you don't believe us (although I'm sure you'll find a way to deny that as well).

Now I'm not willing to suggest this means believers are all dumb. I readily admit there are some very intelligent Christians and believers of other faiths. It could be more a measure of affluence, since those with advanced education tend to come from more affluent families than those who do not. Regardless, the further advanced one's education is, the LESS likely he/she is to be religious. And that's just a FACT (just like evolution is a fact), no matter how strongly you continue to deny it.

[QUOTE=sassyT]

We're not recruiting. Also we don't brainwash children.

Atheist do brain wash their children. I teach middle school kids at my church and it is amazing how many kids with athiests parents tell me their parents would rather see them go partying with drugs and alcohol than going to church.
One kid told me that her atheist mum told her that the reason why mom and dad are getting a divorce is because she is always talking about Jesus. Pathetic :eek:

Athiest do brain wash their children. I teach middle school kids at my church and it is amazing how many kids with athiests parents tell me thier parents would rather see them go partying with drugs and alchohol than going to church.
One kid told me that her athiest mum told her that the reason why mom and dad are getting a divorce is because she is always talking about Jesus. Pathetic This post makes you officially lose all credibility.

[QUOTE=sassyT]

There was a brief time when I thought your propensity to deny the obvious was cute and even charming. But it gets old quick Sassy.

It is a FACT that post-graduates are significantly less likely to believe in things like the supernatural and that includes gods. Look up a Harris poll if you don't believe us (although I'm sure you'll find a way to deny that as well).

Now I'm not willing to suggest this means believers are all dumb. I readily admit there are some very intelligent Christians and believers of other faiths. It could be more a measure of affluence, since those with advanced education tend to come from more affluent families than those who do not. Regardless, the further advanced one's education is, the LESS likely he/she is to be religious. And that's just a FACT (just like evolution is a fact), no matter how strongly you continue to deny it.

What do you expect when education has become the pulpit of athiestic humanism.

[QUOTE=templelane]I teach middle school kids at my church and it is amazing how many kids with athiests parents tell me thier parents would rather see them go partying with drugs and alchohol than going to church.

This kind of unsubstantiated hearsay shouldn't be allowed on the forum. It's a pathetic attempt to slander a minority group. Not to mention that it's also a transparently boldfaced LIE! Parents telling their kids they prefer them to use drugs and alcohol. PLEASE!

Give us a hint -- say, two or three words.

Sorry it's taken me a bit to get back to you! My morals come from society. From a good upbringing. From (what I think is) an inherant right vs wrong. I don't need a book to tell me not to kill my neighbor; I can figure out on my own that killing my neighbor is bad for society. I also get my morals from myself and how I will feel looking at myself in the mirror the next day. More than three words - sorry! :o


Your answer also assumes we "Just are" and arent "meant to be". Let me ask another question. The stuff you cannot see, but feel, where does that come from?? As intricate as this world is your are going to tell me it was just happened by chance??
My Hope is not limited to "I hope I will go to Heaven". What about the things that you have no control over, like getting cancer or a car accident. Also how do atheists explain miracles and please don't deny there are any, they happen every day. I'm sure most people have experienced one or another in their lifetime.
One more thing just to clarify "doing good" just to get in with a Higher being, I know him as God, Isn't what I believe. Once again, to sum God up in one word it would be ...love. I want to Love him and i want to Love other people. God isn't up there with a tali of how many good deeds you do in his name, actually he despises it.
I just cannot accept that this is all this life is..I know better.. having experienced it myself. Having said that you will now probably call me crazy, but it's to be expected. Since you don't believe in supernatural happenings.

Yes, my answer assumes we "just are"; you asked what an atheist thinks their purpose in life it - I told you. I wasn't knocking you for thinking we are "meant to be", I was just pointing out the flaw in your question, the assumption that an atheist thinks there is a purpose to this life. I used the hope you go to heaven as an example, certainly you don't think I'm such an a-hole that I think all you do is sit around all day and think, "Golly! I hope I get into heaven!"?

As far as miracles, sorry, but I don't believe in them. Things happen. Sometimes things happen in ways we don't expect. It's called probability, there are equations you can use to figure it out. To me, an unlikely occurrence doesn't indicate "god did it". And what about cancer and car accidents? Again, things happen. For some people, that's how life plays out. My dad received a tainted blood transfusion in the 70's and contracted Hepatitis C - he died a few years ago at 55. Was that "god"? Or was that the result of a bad transfusion, something that just happened. I go with the latter.

If you can't accept that this life is all there is, that's fine. I can respect and accept that, as long as you accept and respect that I can't accept that there is a god. And no, I won't call you crazy, that would be rude. I know you believe, really, really believe that "god" has saved you or helped you, or whatever. I believe you managed to do those things on your own, you just aren't giving yourself credit for it. We don't have to agree to get along.

templane, I think you are thinking of the Stephen Roberts quote;

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”


What kind of reasoning is that? ...lol why should God prevent your death? If its your time to go it is your time to go. God does in some cases prevent people from dying like he did my brother.

Wait... what? Did you read what you just wrote? Why should god prevent your death if it's your time to go... and then... but in some cases... Huh? What kind of reasoning is that??

And why do you make theism/atheism out to sound like a contest? "one day in a million years!" and "We have at least 38 people a week converting"... it's not a flippin contest, biggest numbers don't "win". Why can't you just live and let live?

PS: There is no "atheistic doctrine", it's not a religion.

[QUOTE=lobrobster]

What do you expect when education has become the pulpit of athiestic humanism.
------------------------
Yes, things are finally starting to turn around. You make it sound like a bad thing? :D

The question has nothing to do with death. Suppose God knows He will have lunch at McDonald's on Thursday. Does this mean He is powerless to change His mind and have lunch somewhere else?

The properties of omniscience and omnipotence cannot simultaneously exist, just as surely as a square circle cannot exist.


Sorry but God does not rely on your human logic for His existence.

This post makes you officially lose all credibility.

Agreed. I think I've found the next candidate for a coveted spot on my "ignore" list!

[QUOTE=sassyT]
------------------------
Yes, things are finally starting to turn around. You make it sound like a bad thing? :D

No it is not a bad thing, I suppose athiests also need their own way of evangelism. The evolution classroom is the Church and the professor the preacher.

[

This kind of unsubstantiated hearsay shouldn't be allowed on the forum. It's a pathetic attempt to slander a minority group. Not to mention that it's also a transparently boldfaced LIE! Parents telling their kids they prefer them to use drugs and alcohol. PLEASE!

I am just relaying what some of the middle school kids at my church have said about the challenge of being a believer with parents who are atheist. I did not say all athiests parents do this but I was responding to temple's statement that athiests do not brain wash their kids. I suppose she was trying to imply that Christians brain wash their kids. Well athiests do also teach their kids to dismiss God. I know, because I deal with kids who go through this everyday.

Sorry but God does not rely on your human logic for his existance.
-------------------------------
God relies on faith, without faith it would be impossible to believe in a god. Faith is believing in something as fact when there is no logical evidence or reason to do so.
When ever I see these debates, I see simple samples of defence in regards to gods existence, arguments that could be used to defend the leprechaun on my shoulder. If I used my wit and defended his existence you would argue it to the fullest and consider me to be a loon.

Hey so I totally don't have to time to go through and read all these posts... but I would like to put my two cents in here..

I KNOW there is a God without a doubt, I feel Him in everything that's good in this world.. Jesus Christ is in my heart and I feel his tremendous love for me and for you... He loves us so much he died for us.. he's knows us better than anyone in the world knows us, and he adores us no matter what we do.

[QUOTE]

Lol.. one day in a million years. Your rate of growth is not enough to make a significant difference. Christianity it the largest religion in the world and the fastest growing so those figures on the chart are actually understated.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Sorry it took so long to get back... I had to take a nap, I was exhausted from eating so much PIE!! LOL :D

PS: There is no "atheistic doctrine", it's not a religion

jillianleab Please review the dictionary definition of atheism

a·the·ism (ā'thē-ĭz'əm)
n.
Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

Hey so I totally don't have to time to go through and read all these posts... but I would like to put my two cents in here..

I KNOW there is a God without a doubt, I feel Him in everything that's good in this world.. Jesus Christ is in my heart and I feel his tremendous love for me and for you... He loves us so much he died for us.. he's knows us better than anyone in the world knows us, and he adores us no matter what we do.
-------------------

Published Wednesday | January 9, 2008
Boy dies alone days after his mother
BY JASON KUIPER
WORLD-HERALD STAFF WRITER

A toddler may have wandered around an Omaha apartment for days after his mother's death, foraging for food. But the 21-month-old didn't survive long enough for help to arrive.

Police found the bodies of Janelle Browning and Ezekiel Berry on Monday at the Drake Court Apartments near 21st and Leavenworth Streets.

Police were working to determine how the 43-year-old woman and her son died, although foul play was not suspected.

Capt. Mary Newman said police were called Monday after a friend of Browning alerted apartment managers that Browning hadn't been seen for several weeks. When apartment officials checked the apartment, they found her dead inside.

A Tuesday autopsy found no outward signs of trauma, Newman said. Police were hoping that once toxicology results come back, they will have answers about how the two died.

Newman said police could not say who died first, but people with knowledge of the investigation said the mother was believed to have been dead for several days before the child died.
Thanks GOD

[QUOTE=Greg Quinn]-------------------------------
God relies on faith, without faith it would be impossible to believe in a god. Faith is believing in something as fact when there is no logical evidence or reason to do so.

Yeah, the kind of faith athiests have in evolution and how all trees, plants, fish, fruit flies, elephants, humans, flees, bats, wales etc, we all came from our great ancenstor who was one cell creature that crawled out of the mythical pond. The pond also know as soup came from a big explosion called the big bang. This big band magically created everything we see today. Mmm..? Now that takes FAITH to believe. It takes more faith to believe in that than to believe a supernatural intelligent being created everything. So you have a greater capacity for faith than I do.

jillianleab Please review the dictionary definition of athiesm

a·the·ism (ā'thē-ĭz'əm)
n.
Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

And so because some website on the intertubes says there is a doctrine, it makes it so? Come on... you aren't that ignorant, are you?

But whatever. Look up the definition of "doctrine".

Doc·trine
–noun 1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.
2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.
3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.


I see a lot of mention of religion in that definition... Clearly you were referring to there being a religious doctrine to atheism, which clearly, I was saying there isn't. There's no official "atheist guidebook" that we all read and abide by.

Is this going to turn into a thread about theists telling atheists what they do and do not believe?

God allows us free will to live our lives.. he can't just intervien every second of the day, if he did that then what free will would we have? If he saved us from EVERY little mistake or mishap, how are we having free will, things happen for reasons.. it was their time to go and heck they are in such a better place now.. he allows life to move on and go on.. sin comes in a destroys all that is good

jillianleab Please review the dictionary definition of athiesm

a·the·ism (ā'thē-ĭz'əm)
n.
Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
-------------------------------------
Lets do some more...
Faith The American Heritage dictionary
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
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scammed, scam·ming.
–noun
1. a confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, esp. for making a quick profit; swindle.
-------
Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
atheist
1571, from Fr. Athéiste (16c.), from Gk. Atheos "to deny the gods, godless," from a- "without" + theos "a god" (see Thea). A slightly earlier form is represented by atheonism (c.1534) which is perhaps from It. Atheo "atheist."

"The existence of a world without God seems to me less absurd than the presence of a God, existing in all his perfection, creating an imperfect man in order to make him run the risk of Hell." [Armand Salacrou, "Certitudes et incertitudes," 1943]

The fact is, it would be a sad day for me if Atheism became recognized as a religion because it simply is not one. That would become corrupt just like all other religions. John Lennon said "Imagine no religion", I like that thought.

[QUOTE=jillianleab]And so because some website on the intertubes says there is a doctrine, it makes it so? Come on... you aren't that ignorant, are you?

No, Jill it is called a dictionary. It is a tool used to define words, objective meanings for words.


But whatever. Look up the definition of "doctrine".

Doc·trine
–noun 1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.
2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.
3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Looks like you used a dictionary here.. so does that make you ignorant too?



I see a lot of mention of religion in that definition... Clearly you were referring to there being a religious doctrine to atheism, which clearly, I was saying there isn't. There's no official "atheist guidebook" that we all read and abide by.

Is this going to turn into a thread about theists telling atheists what they do and do not believe?

Hey, I was just quoting the dictionary word for word. Don't get mad at me. If one claims there is no God that is a doctrine because the statement is based on faith not fact.

God allows us free will to live our lives.. he can't just intervien every second of the day, if he did that then what free will would we have? If he saved us from EVERY little mistake or mishap, how are we having free will, things happen for reasons.. it was their time to go and heck they are in such a better place now.. he allows life to move on and go on.. sin comes in a destroys all that is good
----------
Wow, He never let the little boy live his life. So what does he do for people? Oh... He gives hope? He's there for you when your troubled? I have a leprechaun on my shoulder and he does the same for me as god does for you... And he has never asked for money!

heaven is a far better place to be then this stinking horrible world.Well that pretty tells us why you need to believe. I personally am having a blast in this world.

You do that all the time, why?

Ummm... NK... I'm the one who said that! :)

As this has degenerated into an argument:
Thread Closed