I broke NC at several peoples suggestions.

I texted her "Hey you just wanted to say hey and how are you?"
Texted me back, "I was just about to send you a text asking you the same thing. I'm at work can you talk?"

I told her I could talk before I go to work. She called me and we talked for an hour. Laughed and joked around like old times. It felt so natural. She said she was afraid to talk to me because she thought I didn't want to talk to her. She said she's not over me at all and that she did't want to break up in the first place but couldn't handle the way I was treating her at the time. She kept asking questions about if we started over would it be better. I told her I thought so and that I'd learned a lot about myself. She asked what and I told her and told her how much I regretted the way I treated her and the way I drove her away. She said she was really sorry and that she didn't make it any easier on me. She admitted to being a b!tch to me. She said she's not sure about being in a relationship right now and I told her I wasn't ready right this moment either. I told her I'm still tryign to get myself together and she said she was doing the same. She told me she had turned down a few guys and that she wasn't anywhere close to being over me. She said serveral times how much she missed me. She asked if I still loved her and I told her I didn't think I should answer that question. She asked what if she still feels that way for me and I said that she would have to be honest about it to me. She kept asking me if I was dating anyone or interested in anyone. She asked me if I'd slept with anyone or done anything. I was honest and told her I don't believe in one night stands or meaningless sex. She said she'd kept her legs closed. She told me she wasn't interrested in anyone and I took her word for it. I asked her out to lunch for her birthday (Apr 6) and she said yes and couldn't contain her excitement. She kept going on and on about it. We're not back together and I don't know that we will be but I think its at least something. I was very clear to her that I can't be "just friends" with her and that I am still interrested in her. She seemed interrested in planning other "dates" with me as well and we're going to drive to the mountains on Friday the 18th together. I don't know where to go from here. I told her we could be friends for now and see where it goes, but that I'm not interrested in being "just friends" and won't settle for the friends slot.

I'm trying not to have expectations. I know I could be in for a world more hurt and disappointment. I'm trying to just see what happens. Like I said I'm trying to be cautious and not get my hopes up. Please give me your thoughts on it.

Well, I'm not a big fan of diving back in, but you do at least SOUND like you two are aware of what each of you did wrong the first time. Starting over is always possible, but remember it is starting over.

This means other than for the sake of conversational continuity, you don't get any stars for past performance. You and she both have to re-earn the "permanent" position, so start dating slowly and don't presume ANYTHING.

Keep your humor about you this time, especially if you feel yourself getting angry about stuff. Maturity means being understanding of other's opinions without needing to change them or convince them. Just understanding.

Right/Wrong arguments are a loser. It's all about understanding each other.

Keep your eyes open and don't ignore her bad behaviors if they start again. Calmly and humorously point them out, and if they don't change, start dating some others at the same time until she gets the point or you get a better option in another girl.

Good luck to you.

I'm trying really hard not to be so pig headed and stubborn. I bit my tongue a few times because she started to get a little upset at me. I bit my tongue took it in stride and brushed it off with a bit of humor and vulnerability. This got her so start fessing up to her own mistakes saying she drove me to my behavior and she easily became receptive to me. I'm learning to be calmer and not so argumenitive in a way that doesn't make me a doormat. A difficult balance. That's one of the reasons I told her I wasn't ready for a relationship yet. I need to be stable emotionally and I'm not right now. Neither is she. If this does work out, me and her are going to have to take it slow.

Like I said I'm trying to be cautious and not get my hopes up. Please give me your thoughts on it.
One date at a time, To early to plan to far down the road. Wait and see what the next day brings for now. You both are feeling each other out, and putting your best foot forward, for the other to see. Go slow guy. Build on honest expression and communication. Think before you speak, or act.

Second chances are extremely rare, so when they come along its important to seize them. However, just as everyone has already said, be cautious and take things slow. I would also add that you should go into this with low expectations that way your heart isn't crushed a second time around.

Be very careful. You two are rather different people since the break up, but if you think about it you're not that much different. It's only been a few weeks so the thoughts and feelings from the break-up are still very much fresh in both of your minds. Consequently, this means that it is very likely that old arguments that were never settled will quickly pop back up. If that's the case than just stay calm and cool about the whole thing. Remember how you acted before and do things differently this time around.

Most of us in life never get second chances, instead we get different opportunities. There is nothing wrong with that, its just how life works. Yet, when a second chance does come by, take it and make sure you don't let it go to waste.

Its funny I was so dead set on wanting her back but now that I'm talking to her, I'm not sure about my own feelings anymore. There are things that really worry me about her right now. Its like Tal said, we're feeling each other out. I don't know if she's who I thought she was. I've got some thinking to do.

I ask this all the time... Whats the freakin' hurry!

I'm not trying to hury Tal. If anything what I'm saying is I want to go slower. I'm not liking what I'm seeing up front. But then again, talking on the phone was like old times. But we've been texting today and there are some things right up front that just turned me off. Too personal to get into. I'm going to feel it out though. And if anything, I am going to go slower.



I'm going to try to take my own advice. My old relationship is over and dead. I'm going to treat this as if I'm going on a first date with a new girl. No expectations, no baggage, just a fun time and see what happens. The only history between us I would hope to bring up is the happy fun times. Try to use nostalgia in my favor. Other than that I'm just going on a date with a pretty girl that I'm interested in. Good attitude to have?

I think you are being smart for not trying to pick up where you left off. Good luck, Im interested to see how this works out for you.

Other than that I'm just going on a date with a pretty girl that I'm interested in. Good attitude to have?

That's the best attitude to have. You are starting over and for that to happen you have to let go of the past. However, I stand by my advice in the previous post on this question. Your break-up occurred not too long ago so everything is still fresh in one another's minds and therefore starting over is a little more difficult. I'm positive that the past is bound to come up when you two are interacting. When, and if, the past does come up I would suggest you say something along these lines: "You know that was a rough time for both of us, and I understand your concerns. We both made mistakes and I'm sorry for the things I did to hurt you, but lets try to forget all that and start fresh. I really care about you and I don't want the ghosts of the past to ruin what we potentially have."

A lot of people here agree that NC must no be broken. Why? It is because from their own experiences, that resuming contact with an Ex will just hurt you further... and bring back unwanted painful feelings. I have to agree, it does hurt... However...

It seems that you are very much well aware of the situation and as long as you are jumping into the situation with your head and not your heart... and that you are also aware of the consequences... good and bad... then by all means go for it. Second chances ARE rare indeed... however I have to admit... I am always pro-second chances... (unless something irreversible (cheating) happens)... Good luck man...

So since I have broken no contact she has been contacting me quite frequently. Several brief phone conversations about nothing serious. Just flirting mostly. She messages me on Facebook everyday. She was texting me a bunch for a few days but then cut back saying she couldn't afford a high phone bill. (If you haven't kept up on the back story, she had a back injury about 5 months ago and has a ton of medical bills and bad insurance.) I think she is intimidated to call me as every time we talk on the phone she sends me a text asking if its OK that she call me. She is also acting really insecure and nervous about me backign out on our plans. She keeps asking if I really want her to see me and saying she's really glad I'm going with her and she can't wait. She seems like an excited and nervous school girl whenever she talks about our plans. I'm trying to play it cool and relaxed but I'm a bit nervous myself. We've both been really flirty like we were before we started dating. Just thought I'd update on the countdown to the actual first meeting. I'd love to hear from rome, sneeze, west, emo, jolienoire, and everyone else on what they think. And of couse Tal, feel free to drill it in my head to NOT HURRY because it really does help ground me having the reminder.

Take it slow my friend. I would also suggest you stay busy and not talk to her too often. Have her work a little for your attention.

And of couse Tal, feel free to drill it in my head to NOT HURRY because it really does help ground me having the reminder.
Don't be in a hurry, and don't neglect other areas of your life that make you happy, just to be with her. She can be a part of it, if she wants, but not your whole life. There is plenty of time to do things right!

How's that!

Was going to give rep to confused and Tal but I have to spread it around first. Tal that was Perfect. And confused, you're right that I need to make her work for my attention. I'm eager and it shows. This might be a dangerous time for me to pursue this because though I've made progress, I'm obviously not moved on from her. My mind keeps yelling at my heart to calm the F down. The internal struggle continues. I'm just trying to lead with my mind and think out my actions and words. I don't want to see her again with my heart out front easy for the slaughter. I'm trying to protect myself. As for keeping busy, that's not going to be a problem. I got really behind in school starting a new quarter the week after the breakup and I've been struggling to catch up. My people skill are all that's kept me afloat. ;) My professors know me very well as I've had other classes with them many times so they cut me a little slack when I told them I was having "personal problems". Now I'm racing to catch up and keep up, but it shouldn't be a problem. It was hard to force myself to focus on it at first, but it got easier the more I made myself do it. So I'm catching up and I should be all right. Plus I'm pursuing a promotion at work so I'm keeping myself occupied. I do think I need to make myself less available to her though. For my own sanity if nothing else. I'll be all right. You guys are a big help and I'm glad I can talk on here to all of you.

I'm not reading into this. Really I'm just at work and bored and just thought I'd put this out there. Ex messeged me today asking what I want for my birthday (Apr 20). I told her not to get me anything. (Especially since I'm not getting her anything for hers Apr 6) She insisted she at least take me out and buy me a drink. I said that would be fine since I'm going to buy her lunch and her first *legal* beer on hers.

Ok I know I keep posting over and over on my own thread, but I'm at work and it is really slow. I felt the need for some self affirmations. I just went back and read some of my own posts. Specifically "The Last Chapter" (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/relationships/girlfriend-wants-break-out-blue-186128-16.html#post909416) post in my original story thread. It helped reinforce in me that it is over. I rememeber how I felt driving away from her house. I had let go of her then. I was strong then. I was moving on then. I need to keep that mentality. The road to healing is really 2 steps forward 1 step back... actually sometimes it can be 2 steps forward 5 steps back, but eventually we all do make progress. My hope has come and gone back and forth. But for right now, after reading my original posts, I am holding on the that feeling of "it really is over." I am moved on. I am making myself a better person for MYSELF. I am growing. I have made progress. I have accomplished a lot ON MY OWN without her in this short time. I have no expectations. This could be the start of a great NEW relationship. It cuold be nothing at all. Either way I am fine. I really am happy with myself and what I've accomplished. And the old relationship is over and in the past. I do hope that this leads to a new relationship with her. But I am fine if it doesn't. We honestly did not have a bad relationship before until the last month we were together. But I have learned from the experience. While I would like very much to see if me and her coul dhave a new better relationship with what we both have learned, I know that the knowledge I have gained from this will help me no matter who or what my future will bring me. I am a whole person. I am happy with myself. Things will be good for me.



Tomorrow is the big first date with the ex and I'm nervous as hell. She's been very flirty this week and increasingly more and more sexual. She also gets kind of upset and defensive when I say anything along the lines of we're each single or mention we're broke up. Example I said "its not like we're bf/gf anymore" and she said "well no but it doesn't mean we couldn't be." Another conversation she asked when I had started my new class schedule and I said I had finals the week she dumped me and had started new classes after that. She said defensivly "Wow you weren't vague about that at all were you?" I played dumb and said "About what?" and she said never mind and changed the subject. There are more but you get the idea. And the flirtings been really sexual like I said. Last minute advice before tomorrow would be appreciated. Thanks all. Oh one more question. Sex with the ex at this point would probably be a bad idea right? I mean I want a new relationship with her not a one night stand.

Let me jump right in.

I, too, am no fan of breaking N/C as I learned the hard way. I did notice in you initial posts that you said you were not ready to get back together with her and she was not ready either, that's when I thought to myself, what was the point of breaking N/C?

However, you have shown a great deal of understanding and have handled the situation very well (I couldn't). Here's what is interestng to me, you wrote that after talking to her you were notso sure you had the same feelings anymore for her. I too had this strange feeling, once I started talking to my ex and things seemed like they were progressing towards getting back together I felt different. It's almost as if I just wanted to know I could get her back without actually wanting her back. Furthermore, you asked about having sex, again, I too began thinking thatif I got her out sex would be a possibility and that it was worth the effort. Perhaps I wanted to get her out just to have sex with her and proclaim victory over her.

I see similarities here and give it a thought friend. Sometimes the REAL reasons are hidden amongst fantasy storylines, maybe you are after something in response to how things ended, I was, yet I only understood that later on.

I don't meant suggest you are doing these things, butthesituation is eerily similar to what thoughts I was having. Although, it must be said, you;ve handled yourself much better than I was able to when breaking N/C.

Either way, good luck and be careful. Breaking N/C is a high risk/high reward type of thing. The risk is always high, the reward is not always so.

Thanks, BMI. No I am definitely not sure my feelings to her, but talking to her this week has been giving me some good times feelings like when me and her started dating. I'm not rushing into this. I want to see how I feel actually spending time with her and try to clarify my feelings then. More and more I am seeing the her that I know wreally well, yet something's seem a little different. Some good some bad. I really feel if we do move towards reconcilliation we will have to get to know each other a bit again. That's my immediate goal. Just get to know each other again. Then I will examine my feelings as I am sure she will be examining hers. In my mind reconcilliation is still the goal. But if it doesn't work out that way, I know that I will be OK. Oh and the reason I asked about the sex is not that I want to just get her into bed. While yes our sex life was excellent and I do miss it, I don't want to get her back that way. I was just concerned because I know it is on both of our minds and I didn't think it would be wise to sleep with her this early. But the way we've been talking to each other it could possibly go that way sometime during the next few dates. I'm being cautious about the whole thing and I'm not charging in with my heart out in the open. I don't know what my feelings towards her are, but I do know they are there. There's a lot of hurt on both sides still as well. Any one else got some tips on how to handle tomorrow?

I really hope you have your wits about you through all of this, dude. The few "responses" of hers that you've posted so far make it clear she's already trying to draw you into defensive mode... and you haven't even had your new first data yet. Wow, she's a catch all right. (sarcasm detected)

Sex. *sigh* Well, you're a guy, those thoughts are to be expected, huh? Is she sterile? Are you? If so, then OK, maybe it's OK not to worry. But if you're EVER considering jumping in the sack with someone, EVEN WITH BIRTH CONTROL, make sure you are completely OK in your mind/heart/bank account raising kid(s) with this person.

Make sure!

If I were in your position, I wouldn't be going on this date. But since you are, please keep her in line. You don't owe her ANYTHING. If she misbehaves, like all the sexual banter you've already noted, just stop in your tracks, turn to her and say: "Stop doing that, please. I am not kidding, ok? You will stop that. Please tell me you will respect my wishes and stop."

If she gives you even a MOMENT of crap about it, then you really have your answer, don't you. Shake her hand, wish her well, cancel the date... and move on.

If she realizes you AREN'T going into this round with her the same as last time, you aren't picking up where you left off before, and AGREES to honor your wishes, then go ahead... carefully.

Take care, man.

Just have fun, be yourself, and don't go in with any expectations. Forget the past and concentrate on the present. This is a fresh new start so don't screw it up with feelings from the past. Think of this as something new and you are just going on a date to have fun and to learn about this person. If the past should come up, acknowledge it with compassion and than kindly try to change the subject.

Also, and this is important, DON'T HAVE SEX! Sexual intercourse is such and intimate act that it will only make things more confusing for the both of you. It may get you too attached and scare her away or vice versa. Please, avoid sex until much later, if and when you two decide to begin a relationship again. If she tries to initiate sex I advise you tell her something like "You know, I really care about you and because of that I really do want to be close to you, but I don't believe we should have sex unless we are in a relationship. I don't want to make things more complicated so lets just take things slow." Something like this will show her that you do care about her but that you are being wise about the situation; you are kindly rejecting her for the moment but also letting her know that with time things can change.

Well good luck and as always keep us up-to-date.

You're a sucker for her charms, and weak for her physical presence. You will try to be logical, but not in person. I just hope you have fun, pay attention, and be objective. She knows how to pull your strings for sure, and make you think your in control. Your not. Don't even think you are. Not a bad thing, but at least see it for what it is, she is doing the courting, so no more relationship talk from you no matter how she LEADS into it. Just listen, if you can.

I really hope you have your wits about you through all of this, dude. The few "responses" of hers that you've posted so far make it clear she's already trying to draw you into defensive mode...and you haven't even had your new first data yet. Wow, she's a catch all right. (sarcasm detected)

Sex. *sigh* Well, you're a guy, those thoughts are to be expected, huh? Is she sterile? Are you? If so, then ok, maybe it's ok not to worry. But if you're EVER considering jumping in the sack with someone, EVEN WITH BIRTH CONTROL, make sure you are completely ok in your mind/heart/bank account raising kid(s) with this person.

Make sure!

If I were in your position, I wouldn't be going on this date. But since you are, please keep her in line. You don't owe her ANYTHING. If she misbehaves, like all the sexual banter you've already noted, just stop in your tracks, turn to her and say: "Stop doing that, please. I am not kidding, ok? You will stop that. Please tell me you will respect my wishes and stop."

If she gives you even a MOMENT of crap about it, then you really have your answer, don't you. Shake her hand, wish her well, cancel the date...and move on.

If she realizes you AREN'T going into this round with her the same as last time, you aren't picking up where you left off before, and AGREES to honor your wishes, then go ahead...carefully.

Take care, man.

Sex... you are dead on about the reasons to not let myself get drawn into sex with her. Are men, such as I, really so weak as to not be able to turn down sex? I think not. I won't put myself in a position where "one thing leads to another" and if she flat out says she want to, I will politely decline and hope she can't see the reaction from my crotch. I think this would shock her more than anything should this senario come up. More than likely she wouldn't flat out say that is what she wants. It would be more of a "one thing leading to another" situation if sex came into play. I won't put myself in that position, especially since alcohol will be involved as it is her 21st birthday. I won't be drinking much as I have to drive, but I'm sure she will be. I will keep the date short, like say an hour or so, and avoid compromising situations.


Just have fun, be yourself, and don't go in with any expectations. Forget the past and concentrate on the present. This is a fresh new start so don't screw it up with feelings from the past. Think of this as something new and you are just going on a date to have fun and to learn about this person. If the past should come up, acknowledge it with compassion and than kindly try to change the subject.

Also, and this is important, DON'T HAVE SEX!! Sexual intercourse is such and intimate act that it will only make things more confusing for the both of you. It may get you too attached and scare her away or vice versa. Please, avoid sex until much later, if and when you two decide to begin a relationship again. If she tries to initiate sex I advise you tell her something like "You know, I really care about you and because of that I really do want to be close to you, but I don't believe we should have sex unless we are in a relationship. I don't want to make things more complicated so lets just take things slow." Something like this will show her that you do care about her but that you are being wise about the situation; you are kindly rejecting her for the moment but also letting her know that with time things can change.

Well good luck and as always keep us up-to-date.

My intentions are to just be myself and have fun. My fear is arguing about the past. I've been tempted a few times to say something sarcastic or mean, but I bit my tongue. I know there is still hurt on both sides. My goal is to simply break the cycle of hurt. I am tryign to come to peace with myself in all this. Maybe this is too soon. But its happening now so I need to do my best to not let the demons of the past ruin what we could start now. I'll do my best to be compassionate and change the subject.

I think you are right about sex. This was actually my main concern with it. The confusion and emotional attatchment that would come. I don't want to start a new relationship like that. I don't want to use sex to get her attatched to me again. I don't want to risk getting attatched to her right now. It may or may not come up, but I'll try to not put myself in a position where sex would become likely.



Your a sucker for her charms, and weak for her physical presence. You will try to be logical, but not in person. I just hope you have fun, pay attention, and be objective. She knows how to pull your strings for sure, and make you think your in control. Your not. Don't even think you are. Not a bad thing, but at least see it for what it is, she is doing the courting, so no more relationship talk from you no matter how she LEADS into it. Just listen, if you can.


Tal, as usual, you are spot on. She knows all the right things to get me eating out of the palm of her hand. She's definitely in the driver's seat and that is what scares me. I'll try to keep my mouth shut about relationship talk. Like you said she's courting me. (I thought I was the only one that still used the term courting) I'll try to keep my ears open and not think with the wrong part of myself. She's definitely in the lead on this one so I'll try not to delude myself into thinking I'm in control. I can barely even control myself in this. I could be wrong, but I think I need to make her work for my attention and affection. Not give it so easily to her. But she's in control as you said and she definitely knows how to pull my strings like a puppet master to a puppet.

5 hours until... I am trying to relax. I'll be fine when I get there, but anticipation is weighing heavily on my mind. I hop eall goes well. Keep telling myself no expectations, be kind, don't bring up the past, don't argue with her, if she brings up the past just listen, be myself, and have fun. Easier said than done, but I feel I have handled myself well so far. The real test will be seeing her in person. I'll be all right. I'll be sure to let you all know how it goes. I don't expect to get any conclusions about "us" from one date. Talked to emopunk a while back and he said he just listened to his girl and hung out for like a month before getting back together. I'm not putting a strict time table up or anything. I know this is thinking ahead, but I won't let her string me along forever though. If it reaches a point down the road where I feel I am being moved to "just a friend" I'll end it and go back to NC. I know that's far away (weeks... months... ) so I'm just going to try and live it the now. Live in the moment and have fun. I will let you all know how it goes. I have good feelings about this. I just got to be my happy self. Wish me luck.

Have a great time, and make sure she does too. Easy on the after shave. Dress to impress! (Why am I so nervous?)

As expected, did some smart things... did some stupid things... mostly went well. I handled myself well until I realized I had drank more than intended. Neither one of us got drunk, but there was definitely a buzz. Lunch went really well for the most part. Kind of some awkward silence here and there, but mostly laughing and having a good time. She brought up the past repetedly during our 3 1/2 hour get together. I expressed a little too much of my feelings to her. At one point while well into the buzz I flat out told her I still loved her. She responded the same. I told her my intentions with her. To date her and then start a new relationship where we learn from the past mistakes. I also had to clarify for her that it was all or nothing with me. I told her we either start moving towards a new relationship, or we get out of each others' lives. I told her I didn't want her to see me as weak for still having feelings for her. She told me she still had a lot of fealings for me, but just wants to see where it goes and have fun for right now. That was the bad parts. I think I said too much, but I tried my best not to pressure her. I told her that I was a fool to push her away the first time and the last thing I want to do right now is push her away again. I told her I'm not ready to be in a relationship right now, but that I would want to date her right now. She didn't object and we do have another date planned. Sex came up after I made a move I'm not sure I should have made. We we walking to my car, still a little buzzed, after lunch and she started moving to the passenger side and I followed. I grabbed her, took her in my arms, and kissed her passionately. She didn't push me away and kissed back with a lot of passion. We broke the kiss and with my head still close to hers, I said to her "Happy birthday..." I then broke the embrace, turned, and went to my side of the car as if nothing happened. We get in and she grabs me and kisses me deeply. We kissed and made out in the car for about 10 minutes. Then she kept saying "What is this?" "What are we doing?". On te drive towards her house, she grabbed me and kissed me at every red light. She then asked if I needed to go home and I said, I could hang out a little longer. We decided to go to Target and walk off the rest of the buzz. (Anyone here want to lecture me on driving buzzed.. I know it was stupid, but we both decided it would be best not to wait in the parkinglot, "before this goes any further". It wouldn't have been the first time we let things go too far in a public place.) On the way, she mentioned she was tempted to go home and make love to me, but I told her she can't have that unless I get what I want i.e. her heart. Well we walked around Target and this is where the big relationship talks started coming in. We were very touchy feely and acted like a couple. She kept hugging me and kissing me even after we had both sobered up. She held my hand and put her arm around me like we were a couple again. When she hugged me she didn't want to let go, and I found myself kissing the top of her head like I used to. She kept listing all the things she missed about us, but expressed real concern over some of our past problems, to which I gave heartfelt answers. I tried my best not to use logic on her. And the relationship talk was frequently broken up by fun and laughter. I went a little too far in my teasing once pointing out that she had a few grey hairs. (at 21 years old... I'm a year older and I have greys as well) This upset her more than I intended, I grabbed her, gently guided her face to look into my eyes, and told her she was the most beautiful girl I had ever seem and that I never intended to hurt her feelings. She pulled me down for another kiss after I said this, and it was a very loving and tender kiss. I told her I don't expect her to come running back into my arms after one date, but admitted theree was a part of me that wished she would. I also told her that the other part of me knows if that happened, we would fall right back into the same problems we had before. I told her I didn't want to have the demons of the past to ruin what we could build together. I said I want to learn from those mistakes. We talked about things, and I tried to let her lead, but found myself telling her what my feelings were. I also said I was OK if she never returned my feelings, but that we would have to move on away from each other. Its too early for us to tell right now and I told her that. She admitted that we could never be just friends because there is "more there". By the end of the date, she was referring to the breakup as a "rough patch" and saying, "If we're meant to be, then we will be." I took her back to her parents place and she kissed me a few more times on the way. We got to her house and her dad was in the front lawn, so we didn't hug or kiss good bye, because she is sensitive about PDA in front of them and I'm sure she didn't want to give them the impression we're back together right now. I said, "I really wish I could kiss you again before you go in, but I know your dad's watching." She replied, "well we're going to see eachother again soon." We had talked earlier about some of the things we were each mad at each other for, so before she left, I put my hand on hers and she looked at me in the eye and I told her, "I forgive you for everything you did that hurt me," and she looked back and replied, "I forgive you too, Steven." We briefly confirmed our next plans together and said goodbye. I've got a lot of emotions stirred up right now. I know we're not close to being back together yet, but there is definitely still physical, mental, and emotional chemistry between us. I tried to keep things happy and fun, but serious stuff did come up. We both did have a lot of fun though. I think I scored more points than I lost this round. She's definitely hesitant and I think it has to do with 2 things: she's still got a lot of hurt and is afraid to risk it again; and this is the first time she been single in over 2 1/2 years and is learning about herself again. The latter is the spoken version, the former is my observations. More than likely its reasons I can't even begin to imagine, but I'm sure there is truth in all of it. Anyway, thoughts? Critisizms? Help?

Well, for a first date, that reads more like 4 months worth... sheesh! Making out like little kiddies and exchanging "i love you"s is NOT a first date. (chuckles away)

At least you didn't sleep with her (*faints*). With all that commotion you almost might's'well (not really).

Dude, you are killing me. It's clear you only have a FRACTION of the self-control you're attributing to yourself. Taking it slow is the exact opposite of the story I just read, LOL.

OK, well, I guess you're going to do what you're going to do, just don't say we didn't try to slow you down for almost two weeks... (hangs head in chagrin).

All right, well I'll be honest here, this is new ground for me since I've never had a chance to reconcile with an ex. However, I'm here with you so your experience is mine as well and I'll do my best to offer advice along the way.

So I think your biggest problem is that you talk too much about touch-feely stuff. Ask yourself, would you do that on a first date? If the answer is no (I hope it is) than what would you do on a first date? The answer varies, but for the most part you make her laugh, show her a good time, and ask her questions about her life. Face it, in most good dates the woman does most of the talking while the guy just listens and follows up with related questions (at least this is my experience).

In other words, stop bringing up your feelings and desires. She already knows where you stand. She is fully aware that you love her, you're very much interested in a relationship, and you will not settle for a friendship. As a result there is no need to keep reminding her. Fortunately I don't think you made any grievous mistakes that will destroy the path your on. Honestly, she is part at fault for also brining up her feelings. However, it is up to you to set the tone. There is nothing wrong with cuddling, kissing, holding each other and all that stuff but just remember that you two are back in the dating phase. Have fun and learn about one another.

Well, for a first date, that reads more like 4 months worth...sheesh! Making out like little kiddies and exchanging "i love you"s is NOT a first date. (chuckles away)

At least you didn't sleep with her (*faints*). With all that commotion you almost might's'well (not really).

Dude, you are killing me. It's clear you only have a FRACTION of the self-control you're attributing to yourself. Taking it slow is the exact opposite of the story I just read, LOL.

OK, well, I guess you're gonna do what you're gonna do, just don't say we didn't try to slow you down for almost two weeks...(hangs head in chagrin).

I blame the I love you (it was only one) on my drinking... or at least if she brings it up I will. Making out like little kiddies... well that's not out of the norm for us. We were doing that before we started dating the first time. I'm in no way endorsing this as a way to start a relationship with someone, but it's the way it happened. I lost all self control and I'm beating myself up for the way I handled things. I didn't do any permenate damage, but I still am mad at myself for not having the self control I thought I had. I said the test would be seeing her in person and I guess it really was. It showed me just how easily I let myself be a sucker for her. At least we didn't progress to sex. I think we both would have regretted it. But the thought did cross our minds a few times. I certainly don't have the self control I attributed to myself though. And no I didn't take it slow like I wanted. The relationship talk was instigated by her, but I told her more than I wanted to. I put my heart on my sleeve and that's the last place I wanted it. The relationship talk on her part mostly consisted of extremely probing questions about my feelings. And I wasn't in much condition (alcohol or no) to hide my feelings. I didn't pour my heart out to her, but I certainly said more than I wanted to. But she knows how to... pull my strings. I lost myself control. Please keep drilling in my head to slow down before my next date. I got to do better next time in order to earn myself some selfrespect, because I certainly don't have any respect for myself the way I handled things today.




Alright, well I'll be honest here, this is new ground for me since I've never had a chance to reconcile with an ex. However, I'm here with you so your experience is mine as well and I'll do my best to offer advice along the way.

So I think your biggest problem is that you talk too much about touch-feely stuff. Ask yourself, would you do that on a first date? If the answer is no (I hope it is) than what would you do on a first date? The answer varies, but for the most part you make her laugh, show her a good time, and ask her questions about her life. Face it, in most good dates the woman does most of the talking while the guy just listens and follows up with related questions (at least this is my experience).

In other words, stop bringing up your feelings and desires. She already knows where you stand. She is fully aware that you love her, you're very much interested in a relationship, and you will not settle for a friendship. As a result there is no need to keep reminding her. Fortunately I don't think you made any grievous mistakes that will destroy the path your on. Honestly, she is part at fault for also brining up her feelings. However, it is up to you to set the tone. There is nothing wrong with cuddling, kissing, holding each other and all that stuff but just remember that you two are back in the dating phase. Have fun and learn about one another.

C25, I really hope this doesn't turn into a "what not to do" thread. This is really new territory for me too. To be honest I've never even desired to reconcile with an ex before this one. I tried to keep the talk fun, but she asked some really probing questions and it was hard to get the cork back in once I started pouring my feelings to her. I didn't pour my heart out, but I said more than I should. To be honest the talk about what went wrong brought me down and it was hard to bring myself back up. I basically switched into A.D.D. mode and when I started to feel the relationship talk was getting beyond my ability to handle, I'd completely change the subject and say or do something that would make us burst into laughter. I was mostly fun, but the relationship talk was not the most fun thing in the world. On the bright side, there wasn't much relationship talk on the drive to Target. It was mostly her eyeing me like a piece of meat and aggressively grabbing and kissing me every chance she got. Not exactly slow, but better than relationship talk lol. As far as questions about her life, I was met with short sentences. Basically she doesn't have much of a life. She switched to working closing shift at work so she wouldn't have to sit at home by herself so much after the break up. She wasn't forthcoming with what all she's been up to other than working. She's out of the ordinary I suppose in that she never was much of a talker. But we did quite a bit of joking and laughing with each other. We did more joking around than relationship talk. You are dead right that I need to shut my mouth about my feelings and desires. She was asking very specific questions about them. It's only going to annoy her if I repeat myself over and over. I guess I showed myself what I still need to work on.

I have just under 2 weeks till the next date. I'm to try and keep only light contact till then so that I'm not pouring my feelings out to her. I won't let it progress physically past what we've already established today. And I am going to let her take the lead with this. She can initiate it. I'm just going to set myself personal boundries. Next date is all about fun. I'm (hopefully) not going to let the relationship talk go on too much. If she does talk about it, I'll try to handle it better.

It just occurred to me the conversation that lead to the "I love you"s, not that it matters a whole lot. We were driving and the relationship came up briefly. And we were talking about how we both made some mistakes and pushed each other apart. I told her that I was lashing out at her and blaming her for my depression and self hatred of the time and that it was wrong of me. I told her it got to the point where I spent about a 2 month period 6 months before the actual break up thinking about leaving her because I wasn't able to deal with my own emotional problems. She started to get upset upon hearing this and I said, "but I didn't, because it wasn't your fault I was feeling the way I was feeling and I couldn't leave you because I loved you too much.... hell I still love you...." to which she replied "I love you too." "Don't say that just because I said it," I said with a tinge of anger. She quickly backed up her declaration with, "I'm not just saying that. Theres a reason I haven't gotten over you." "Yeah, but that doesn't matter, since your not in love with me anymore." I came back still feeling angry but my voice coming out more sorrowful. "I can't answer that right now," she said. "It wasn't a question," I said. "I still can't respond to it..." she replied. Then I said, "For men, at least the ones I know, love is different. There isn't a distenction between 'loving' and 'being in love with' someone. Men either love or they do not. And it takes men a lot longer to get over lost love than it does women because it takes men longer to develope those feelings in the first place." She said, "Being in love means that you need to be around that person all the time and can't be without them." I wanted to say to her, "No, thats called codependancy," but instead I just sat quitely for a few moments and then returned to lighter conversation, laughing and joking. I will again stress, the above was not what the majority of the date consisted of. It was MOSTLY having fun.

I wasn't emotionally ready for this. I really wasn't ready for this. But it's here before me. I've already committed to this path. I just know if it doesn't work out, I'm going to be crushed 10 times worse than the first time. I'm not ready for this, but I put myself in this position and I need to see it though no matter what the outcome. What have I gotten myself into?

Calm down my friend. Trust me, you can handle this. On top of that, we're all here to help you through it.

What I tell a lot of people when they first begin dating someone is to not care what happens. When they worry too much about the situation they forget to have fun and then things go to waste. Worst of all, if things don't work out they become devastated. As a result, they should simply not care what happens, and when they do things work out well, even if the outcome is without the other person.

I know this is harder for you because you two have a past but you need to go into this with a "whatever happens, happens" attitude. Remember what I said about second chances? Most of us never get them, but if we ever come across one we should seize it and not let it go to waste. Listen, just kick back and have fun! Don't make this girl a priority in your life. On top of that, take charge of the situation. If she asks probing questions about how you feel just politely tell her "Hey we've already talked about this, lets not center our time together on the same subject" or try telling her "You know, I'm sure everything will become more clear with time. For now lets have some fun doing other things."

You mentioned that there were only a few times during the date where things got touch-feely. That's good, now just work towards shrinking that number to zero. You're right, don't wear your heart on your sleeve because you should be making her wonder how you feel about her. Be a mystery! See how it's like dating all over again?

One other thing, I don't want to hear you blaming things on alcohol anymore. If you can't handle yourself around her when you drink than the solution is not to drink. Take her some place that doesn't involve the need to drink. How about miniature golf, a coffee shop, ice skating, museum, movie, art gallery, bowling, or the hundreds of other things you can do.

Bottom line: Don't care what happens and just have fun.

Alcohol is an excuse. I know I'm responsible for my own actions, but I guess its easier to blame the alcohol. The truth is I wasn't ready for this emotionally. Plain and simple. It's hard for me to not care what happens because I already do have strong feelings for her. I don't want to blow my second chance. Like you said, confused25, second chances are rare, and they should be seized. I thought I had that "what ever happens, happens" attitude but it almost fell apart actually seeing her. But I think I can learn from it now that I'm past the initial shock. I know what to expect a little better. And you are right, I've already made all my feelings and intentions clear, there is no reason for me to tell her again, even if she asks. I'm not in a calm state right now, and that scares me. That she can make me like this. I've really got too much of myself riding on the outcome of this, and I AM going to make the same mistakes again. I'm already setting myself up to rebuild my world around her. Have I learned nothing? One date and I want her to be the center of my universe again. I'm still working on that making myself the center of my universe part. I think right now I just have a lot of stirred up emotions and I need to let them settle. I know now what to expect as far as my feelings go next time I see her. I can concentrate on having fun (or at least try). I'm in such a freaking hurry to get back to being in a relationship, I'm going to ruin my chance, and miss out on the potentially fun trip along the way. I should be enjoying this, not trying to force it to the next step. I couldn't have gotten this far without all you guys, esp. confused25 and Tal. You guys are being my voice of reason through all this, because I can't stop thinking with my heart. Not that its your burden, but try not to let me do anything so stupid that I ruin this. If you were actually here, I'd tell you to smack me. I know you can't be here to physically stop me from doing anything stupid, but I really wish you were. Like I said, I'm going to keep light contact between now and the next date so I can let my emotions settle and better prepare myself for the next encounter. The next one is a day trip so we're probably going to be together a good 7-8 hours. Maybe not the best idea, but it should be fun, so long as I keep it fun. We're going to the Aquarium up in the mountains about an hour and a half from home. Its her favorite date place for us to go and it was her idea so I went along with it. It's kind of a romantic setting and there's nothing but good memories from our trips there. Thanks again everyone.

Sorry dude, alcohol is not an excuse anymore. This may be harsh, but you know how you act around her when you drink so your best option is not to drink when you are with her. There are no if's, and's, or but's, just don't do it.

Secondly, I know this is tough and I can tell from the tone in your posts that you are shaken up, but you can get through this. Remember when you didn't think you would get through the first break up? Well you did and now you are a stronger person because of it. You may not think that right now, but trust me I can tell.

Also, I'm glad that you notice you are putting too much emphasis on this girl. You don't want to rebuild your world around her and as long as you remind yourself of that you won't. Remember, have confidence in yourself. There is a reason this girl has feelings for you and it's because you are an awesome guy. Remember that.

Moreover, you have the right idea about keeping contact light until the next date, now do your best to stick by that. Keep yourself busy so that way when she calls you can't pick up. Enjoy life doing fun things that way you can't call her back right away. Be mysterious and make her wonder what you're up to.

As for the actual date, I think it's a good location. But lets talk about that two days before it actually happens. For now, take a deep breath and be proud that you got through the day. Do something fun and stop worrying about this, the universe will take care of itself.

confused25, I really need to spread some rep around, because I want to give you rep on every single post you've put on my thread, but it won't let me. Hahaha Seriously, you're advice is awesome and really helps me take a step back and look at myself. I have the joy of school and work for the next 4 days, so no fun there, but it will still keep me busy. I'll get out of the house and hang out with the guys on Friday. Have some man time to grunt, scratch, fight, and be damn manly, lol. Get my mind off my feelings and have some fun. I don't believe they have alcohol at the aquarium being as it is a family place, so I should be good about the not drinking part. I need to cut back on drinking anyway as I have really picked up the habit again way too much lately. I'll worry about the next date when we get closer to it.

Also, maybe kissing her wasn't such a bad thing. It certainly got her wanting more, and it showed me there is definitely still chemistry there. More importantly, it proved to her my point about not being able to ever be just friends, since after that she readily made that declaration herself. There's still a spark there, with a little luck and some kindling, it could start the flame again. I didn't give her everything she wanted, and I certainly teased her with it. Kept it fun, playful, and exciting. She definitely wanted more. But, I can and will stick to my guns about no sex unless we get into a stable relationship.

Oh and this might be thread hijacking, but its my own thread. Any guys decided to grow their beard out after getting dumped? I did since she never "let me" while we were together and now that its grown out, softened up, and groomed, she says she likes it. Wow, I'm being random. Thanks a bunch again confused25 and everyone else.

confused25, I really need to spread some rep around, because I want to give you rep on every single post you've put on my thread, but it won't let me. hahaha Seriously, you're advice is awesome and really helps me take a step back and look at myself. I have the joy of school and work for the next 4 days, so no fun there, but it will still keep me busy. I'll get out of the house and hang out with the guys on Friday. Have some man time to grunt, scratch, fight, and be damn manly, lol. Get my mind off my feelings and have some fun. I don't believe they have alcohol at the aquarium being as it is a family place, so I should be good about the not drinking part. I need to cut back on drinking anyways as I have really picked up the habit again way too much lately. I'll worry about the next date when we get closer to it.

Also, maybe kissing her wasn't such a bad thing. It certainly got her wanting more, and it showed me there is definately still chemistry there. More importantly, it proved to her my point about not being able to ever be just friends, since after that she readily made that declaration herself. Theres still a spark there, with a little luck and some kindling, it could start the flame again. I didn't give her everything she wanted, and I certainly teased her with it. Kept it fun, playful, and exciting. She definately wanted more. But, I can and will stick to my guns about no sex unless we get into a stable relationship.

Oh and this might be thread hijacking, but its my own thread. Any guys decided to grow their beard out after getting dumped? I did since she never "let me" while we were together and now that its grown out, softened up, and groomed, she says she likes it. Wow, I'm being random. Thanks a bunch again confused25 and everyone else.

It is about actions and not words at this stage. Just do what is natural and don't push too much. Though there will come a time when you need to both sit down and talk, that time is not yet!

At some point I hope you realize that saying "no" to things is a sign of strength. Saying "no" to yourself is a critical skill. You don't have that skill, at all.

You're first date reads like all the stuff you'd expect from the first 10 dates over a 2-3 month period. If you thought it, you said it. If you thought it, you did it. If she thought/did anything, you went along with it.

With no sense of measure, you dive in head long as if you two never broke up at all.

Post after post you say the same thing:
"I know this is not smart, but I'm going to do this."
"I know I shouldn't do this, but I did."
"I wasn't ready for this at all, but I'm doing it anyway."

The sheer volume of your posts also concerns me. Obssessive, maybe? It might explain a lot of this. Anyway, my point is still that restraint is a key skill in leadership. If you have any hope of leading intelligently to a solid, safe place, you have GOT to learn how to say "No, let's not do that." Not only to her, but to YOU. And after saying no, MEAN IT. Don't do it.

Your "second date" is an all-day destination-event date? See what I mean? This already sounds like an "engaged-people's-activity". For some reason, either you or her are push-push-pushing to ramp things right back to where they once were as quickly as humanly possible.

That's a mistake. You two didn't work that way before. Racing back to where you were is a mistake. By the time you slowly, slowly, heart-breakingly slowly reach that point over a 6-month period, you give yourselves EVERY CHANCE to reacquire your intimacy and NOT be at the same place you were before... where it didn't work.

I sincerely hope you understand my point.

If this destination-event can't be changed, TAKE SOME CHAPERONES, or cancel the date for something closer, MUCH shorter, and completely 100% public.

Land mines, everywhere, dude.

Lots and lots of info here.

Can't say I saw this happening, only because it seemed like you thought this through very well, although you drastically underestimated the feelings involved.

In perspective, it went well for a date with an ex, obviously there are still strong feelings on both your sides. What went wrong was the fact that, again, you underestimated your draw to her and your actions reveal that you missed and wanted her back a lot more than you led on.

This booze thing is an excuse butmay play a part just yet. Perhaps you were so out of character (at least compared to the way you've presented yourself on here)b/c of the drinks, as was she and perhaps that is why it turned into such a lovey-dovey affair. During the lunch when you and her were not buzzing you said you had silences and the like, it seems after the lunch you both became more open and revealing. The actions that took place may not be what either of you were actual feeling (well maybe not as intense) and if you consider it a mistake she may well also, the flip-flop scenario that annoyingly comes up.

Overall I think its hard to comment as to whether its good or bad. Its good in the sense she still has feelings for you, if you dealt with feelings of hernot caring for you or her dating other guys than this date dispelled those thoughts and that is a big positive. The downside is that you may have gotten into something you may not even want, and you said it perfectly yourself if that bethecase "what have i gotten myself into?". You are also correct about the second time hurting more than the first, more hurt, more anger, more stress. This is one reason why members here advocate so strongly for N/C and instruct to keep it going strong no matter what, you can lie to yourself very easily. Intellectually you understand but emotionally you didn't. You say you were goingto becareful and were anything but a cautious ex-b/f, so that was you convincing yourself you can handle this days prior to game-time.

I guess you can answer best whether it went well or not based on what you REALLY want from this girl.

Never mix alcohol, perfume and lipstick. Especially at a Targets. Let me know when the brain comes in.

At some point I hope you realize that saying "no" to things is a sign of strength. Saying "no" to yourself is a critical skill. You don't have that skill, at all.

You're first date reads like all the stuff you'd expect from the first 10 dates over a 2-3 month period. If you thought it, you said it. If you thought it, you did it. If she thought/did anything, you went along with it.

With no sense of measure, you dive in head long as if you two never broke up at all.

Post after post you say the same thing:
"I know this is not smart, but I'm going to do this."
"I know I shouldn't do this, but I did."
"I wasn't ready for this at all, but I'm doing it anyway."

The sheer volume of your posts also concerns me. Obssessive, maybe? It might explain a lot of this. Anyway, my point is still that restraint is a key skill in leadership. If you have any hope of leading intelligently to a solid, safe place, you have GOT to learn how to say "No, let's not do that." Not only to her, but to YOU. And after saying no, MEAN IT. Don't do it.

Your "second date" is an all-day destination-event date? See what I mean? This already sounds like an "engaged-people's-activity". For some reason, either you or her are push-push-pushing to ramp things right back to where they once were as quickly as humanly possible.

That's a mistake. You two didn't work that way before. Racing back to where you were is a mistake. By the time you slowly, slowly, heart-breakingly slowly reach that point over a 6-month period, you give yourselves EVERY CHANCE to reacquire your intimacy and NOT be at the same place you were before...where it didn't work.

I sincerely hope you understand my point.

If this destination-event can't be changed, TAKE SOME CHAPERONES, or cancel the date for something closer, MUCH shorter, and completely 100% public.

Land mines, everywhere, dude.

Ok seriously putting me on the defensive here. I'm usually not one to disrespect peoples opinions, but I feel a strong need to defend myself right now. Mostly you've been very helpful, and I really appreciate you taking the time to do so, but I do need to stand up for myself when I feel as though I am being misinterpreted.

I am new to this. I've never done this before. I didn't know what to expect of her or myself. I don't think I did horribly being as I didn't have any experiece or a guide book. In the past getting dumped from a long term relationship (1 year+) I have told the dumper to kiss my @ss and called them every name in the book. I've never tried to get back together with an ex before. I'm new to this. I knew the risks going into it, but I didn't know what to expect when it actually happened. What Tal said is true, I have very little control in her physical presence. Its something I have to learn. You can't expect me to be there all at once. I don't have that expectation of myself. I understand that this is a learning process and one that carries high risk. I also understand the importance of NC and I didn't make the decision to break it lightly. I'm taking a risky road, I'm playing with fire. It will either turn out rewarding or devastating. I KNOW that. Its not like I'll die or anthing. But you got to take the risk if you want the reward. So I am. And I won't do it pretty or perfect. I will make mistakes, and I will LEARN from them. I can list my mistakes if you don't believe I grasp them. That's the big thing you need to realise. I SEE my mistakes. SEEING them allows my to examine myself and what to do better next time. So long as I avoid the huge mistakes, and learn from the rest, I should be fine. The fact that she still wants the second date tells me I didn't completely ruin my chances, which tells me I didn't make any horrible mistakes. The mistakes I made can be corrected now that I know what to prepare for.

You also quoted me several times stating that I was doing things I knew were mistakes. This is taken out of context. You should realise that by verbalizing that, I was intending to say that while I realise I am in the process of doing something wrong, I am recognising it and correcting it. Again, learning process. You learn more from mistakes than you do from getting right the first time. And that one, "I wasn't ready for this at all, but I'm doing it anyway." That was a statement conveying that I have already committed to this path of trying to get back together, but now realise I wasn't prepared. Having said that, the task is before me NOW and I need to adapt on the fly because the chance won't be there later. No time to prepare, just have to learn as I go.

Oh and being obsessive, give me a freaking break. I had a lot of emotions stirred up right afterwards and needed to get it out. That and I am extremely longwinded when I write. To be honest, you guys on here are the only ones I've really talked to in depth about the date. All the people in my real life have gotten the short, "It went ok" answer when asking me about it. And one more time, it's a learning process and I will be able to say NO in the future now that I have a better idea of what to expect of myself.

The second trip is like a half day event. And if you were familiar with where I live, you would know how horribly boring it could be. An hour or so drive isn't that bad. You act like we're going on vacation together. There is nothing wrong with the venue, especially given the nostalgic connection to the place. That and she has free tickets. The aquarium is a very public place and usually very busy. As far as chaperones, give me a little bit more credit than that. No alcohol, public place, and I better know what to expect. I think I've at least learned something.


Lots and lots of info here.

Can't say I saw this happening, only b/c it seemed like you thought this through very well, although you drastically underestimated the feelings involved.

In perspective, it went well for a date with an ex, obviously there are still strong feelings on both your sides. What went wrong was the fact that, again, you underestimated your draw to her and your actions reveal that you missed and wanted her back alot more than you led on.

This booze thing is an excuse butmay play a part just yet. Perhaps you were so out of character (at least compared to the way you've presented yourself on here)b/c of the drinks, as was she and perhaps that is why it turned into such a lovey-dovey affair. During the lunch when you and her were not buzzing you said you had silences and the like, it seems after the lunch you both became more open and revealing. The actions that took place may not be what either of you were actual feeling (well maybe not as intense) and if you consider it a mistake she may well also, the flip-flop scenario that annoyingly comes up.

Overall I think its hard to comment as to whether its good or bad. Its good in the sense she still has feelings for you, if you dealt with feelings of hernot caring for you or her dating other guys than this date dispelled those thoughts and that is a big positive. The downside is that you may have gotten into something you may not even want, and you said it perfectly yourself if that bethecase "what have i gotten myself into?". You are also correct about the second time hurting more than the first, more hurt, more anger, more stress. This is one reason why members here advocate so strongly for N/C and instruct to keep it going strong no matter what, you can lie to yourself very easily. Intellectually you understand but emotionally you didn't. You say you were goingto becareful and were anything but a cautious ex-b/f, so that was you convincing yourself you can handle this days prior to game-time.

I guess you can answer best whether it went well or not based on what you REALLY want from this girl.

I did very seriously underestimate my feelings. I thought I was prepared. The knowledge was there. But being around her and not knowing wha tto expect, my brain lost control and I was leading with my heart. The alcohol didn't help, but I don't think we were that far out of character. I think it did make our feelings be closer to the surface than either one of us really wanted to show. I don't think it intensified the feelings, it just made them easier to come out in the open. To be honest it probably would have still gone that way without the alcohol. I really attribute the silences at first to us adjusting. We haven't seen each other since February so it took a little time to really fall back into natural conversation with each other. Also the relationship was on both of our minds and that made it a little hard to focus on other things. I did my best to not focus on any one thing so that it would be broken up, light, and fun. I kept her laughing. I think things are still looking good. Alcohol or no, she still has feelings for me and I think that's a very good thing. By "what have I gotten myself into," I simply meant that I wasn't as prepared as I though I was and that I need ot be careful not to let it overwhelm me. I was prepared intellectually, but no where close emotionaly. I am better prepared now that I know what to expect. Hopefully, I can actually use at least part of my brain on my next encounter. Its one big learning process.


Never mix alcohol, perfume and lipstick. Especially at a Targets. Let me know when the brain comes in.

So True... you were dead right about how I would be in her physical presence. Now that I have a better idea of what to expect of myself, and of her, I feel that my brain can take control of my actions a little better... won't say I'll be perfect, I'm sure I'll make more mistakes, but now I know what to expect.

I'm not the one that needs convincing, so if you're OK with these dates, that's all that matters in the end.

All I'm interested in here, the only reason I even post here, is to help people NOT fall into repetitive ruts. If you're in no danger of that, then good work.

But if the danger is still very real, then just focus on the POINTS we're making, not the inevitable miscalculation/misinterpretation of facts or what you've said to us. Our underlying points will probably stand even through those corrections. Understand?

For instance, you indicated a 7-8 hour dating outing. That sounds very isolated, doesn't it? So my response to you is reasonable based on what you originally said. And even though you've downplayed that with your additional info about the aquarium trip, my point is still the same, that much time together (7-8 hours you didn't change) in a single date is asking for more "over-communication" and rushing through dates and dates worth of activity. If you don't see that as a likely result, or disagree you two will have a repeat performance from your first date (and more), well, then what can I say?

I'm concerned for you. If nothing else, I hope you understand that.

I'm sure I'll make more mistakes, but now I know what to expect.
The quote I have in my signature about obstacles, is not there to look good.

I'm not the one that needs convincing, so if you're OK with these dates, that's all that matters in the end.

All I'm interested in here, the only reason I even post here, is to help people NOT fall into repetitive ruts. If you're in no danger of that, then good work.

But if the danger is still very real, then just focus on the POINTS we're making, not the inevitable miscalculation/misinterpretation of facts or what you've said to us. Our underlying points will probably stand even through those corrections. Understand?

For instance, you indicated a 7-8 hour dating outing. That sounds very isolated, doesn't it? So my response to you is reasonable based on what you originally said. And even though you've downplayed that with your additional info about the aquarium trip, my point is still the same, that much time together (7-8 hours you didn't change) in a single date is asking for more "over-communication" and rushing through dates and dates worth of activity. If you don't see that as a likely result, or disagree you two will have a repeat performance from your first date (and more), well, then what can I say?

I'm concerned for you. If nothing else, I hope you understand that.

I do understand. I may have took it the wrong way. Don't think I'm ungrateful. It just rubbed me the wrong way. I am OK with these dates, it is just going to be more emotionally demanding than I had previously thought. I'll learn and adapt. I see the risk of over communication in this next date, but I alos see the potential for a lot of good things. I don't expect anything as far as reconciliation goes to come out of two dates. I just need to keep in mind that I'm trying to have fun. A part of me is in a hurry to get into the security and comfort of a relationship, but I'm trying to keep that in check. It was never my primary motivation in this. I am capable of being happy and single. I want her because I love her. Simple as that. And I consider her worth the effort and risk to achieve that goal. I'll make more of an effort using what I learned from the first date to keep things light and fun. I will also not let things progress physically past the point they are at. And I may be spending the morning and afternoon with her, but I'll end the date upon arriving back in town. I won't go out to dinner or spend the evening with her. I figure I'll probably spend from 10am-4 or 5pm with her and then end the date. I know that's a long date, but I think I will be OK.

I think what we are all saying is, you never healed from the first break-up and now all of this is happening so quickly. Because it is happening so quickly you are jumping at her call(just my opinion) and trying to rush things to get back to the place you were before, but keep in mind, if what went wrong in the relationship is not discussed then it will only happen again. "If we do not learn from the past, we are doomed to repeat it"

Don't take this the wrong way, I want this to work out for you. But I'm just afraid that if it falls through, its going to hit you a lot harder because you never fully healed

Ok seriously putting me on the defensive here.
When we feel like we need to defend our actions, that's the time to evaluate them first. I share his concerns, as we already know your weakness for her and now a willingness to follow her lead, is something to think about. Think about where your head will be after spending most of the day smelling her perfume and slobbing on her lipstick. Part of what we as guys ignore is putting ourselves in a position to be seduced, or influenced against our will. This whirlwind your on, has you doing, and not listening, a dangerous game of distraction, from the real issue, and that's how she feels about you, and more importantly, what she is going to do about it. Reread this posts for yourself, and see if you have kept any part of the plan you have laid out for yourself. If you find it, please let me know.

I think what we are all saying is, you never healed from the first break-up and now all of this is happening so quickly. Because it is happening so quickly you are jumping at her call(just my opinion) and trying to rush things to get back to the place you were before, but keep in mind, if what went wrong in the relationship is not discussed then it will only happen again. "If we do not learn from the past, we are doomed to repeat it"

Don't take this the wrong way, I want this to work out for you. But I'm just afraid that if it falls through, its going to hit you a lot harder because you never fully healed

You are absolutely right that I haven't healed. I need to find a way to deal with that while dealing with having her in my life again. Impossible? Maybe. I brought this on myself, and I feel as though I need to get stronger and rise to the challenge I set before myself. I had built a wall to protect myself, but it turned out to be made of glass. Transparant and easily shattered. I lost all my defenses merely being in her presence. I need to find a way to better control myself before the next date. I'm not entirely sure how to do that.

Believe me I want to discuss what went wrong before jumping back in. In fact we've been doing that. But on the other hand, I'm not sure the dating phase is the right time to drudge up all the negative emotions associated with that. I believe it to be crucial right now to form new happy experiences with her so that those are the emotions she will immediately associate with me. If there's one thing I have done, its examine what went wrong. I think there will be a more appropriate time and place to discuss with her where the relationship failed.

If this does fall through, I will be crushed, and I know that. I knew that intellectually going in. It won't kill me though.





Ok seriously putting me on the defensive here.

When we feel like we need to defend our actions, that's the time to evaluate them first. I share his concerns, as we already know your weakness for her and now a willingness to follow her lead, is something to think about. Think about where your head will be after spending most of the day smelling her perfume and slobbing on her lipstick. Part of what we as guys ignore is putting ourselves in a position to be seduced, or influenced against our will. This whirlwind your on, has you doing, and not listening, a dangerous game of distraction, from the real issue, and that's how she feels about you, and more importantly, what she is going to do about it. Reread this posts for yourself, and see if you have kept any part of the plan you have laid out for yourself. If you find it, please let me know.

Ok so how do I take charge of the situation? I feel as though any control I have will be illusionary. I can't make her be with me again. I can't make her think or feel the way I want her to. So what can I do? What control do I actually have over the situation? Myself? Not hardly. Being around her was like taking a hit from a really strong drug. (No drugs are bad for you metaphors. Already been down that line of thought several times) It was intoxicating. She has a spell over me and it irritates me. And after the meeting, I crashed off that drug. I am feeling withdraws I haven't felt since the breakup. Physical, psycolgical, and emotional pain. The wounds have been reopened in other words. I knew this would be hard but I wasn't prepared for it. My eyes haven't been taken off the goal though. I won't be satisfied unless she defines her feelings for me and I get reconcilliation with her. And I am prepared to break it off with her if I don't get that definition and reconcilliation in the next few months. I am getting past the initial shock. This will get easier and I will get more control over myself. I'm already telling myself no to several impulses I've had such as asking her out for another date so I can see her sooner. I told myself no. I also haven't contacted her since the date which believe me is a hard thing to do. I am reevaluating the plan and trying to find a way to revamp it to take into account what I learned in this first encounter. I've tripped some, but I haven't fallen flat on my face. I just got to make sure I keep from falling. Time to make a new plan.

Hey guys, just wanted you all to know I woke up today feeling normal. What an odd thing to say right? I didn't feel panicked or worried. I didn't wake up craving attention of the ex girlfriend. I felt normal and have had a pretty normal day. My mind is a lot clearer and my heart a lot calmer. I don't know why. Perhaps it took a few days to get over the shock of seeing her, but today I feel pretty good.

I did speak to the ex today briefly, but I was already having a good day before that. The one thing I will say I observed out of her though is she is being extremely insecure about me. She keeps going on and on in every conversation email and on the phone about how much she is looking forward to the next date. And she keeps asking me repetedly if I really want to go with her. Not in a way that sounds like she wants to back out, but in a way that sounds like she is afraid of me backing out. I jokingly brought it up saying, "Yes, I still want to go with you. You're not afraid of me canceling are you?" She said she thought the only reason I was going with her was so I wouldn't hurt her feelings. This makes somewhere around the 10th time she's asked me if I was still going with her. Today she actually asked twice. I checked my email when I got to work and she had sent me 2 emails, one telling me how much fun she had with me on her birthday and the other making sure I was still going with her. I replied saying yes. Then later in the day she calls me from work asking me the same thing like she couldn't wait till after work to get the answer from her email. I don't know what to make of it other than she's being insecure. Thought I'd mention it as I thuoght it was curious. I won't say it had no effect on me, it was certainly a confidence and ego boost, even if it is a sign that she could someday fall back into codependancy.

Why did you call in the first place again?

Seems to me your life just got a whole lot more complicated when you picked up that phone and called her. Man, getting her back better be worth all this dude.

She called me at my work Number...



Oh sorry, misunderstood you BMI. I hope its worth it in the end as well. I contacted her initialy because I think too much with my heart. Seriously our relationship only turned sour in the last 3-4 weeks or so before the breakup. Mostly it was good for the almost 2 years before that. Of course we had issues like everyone but none of them were deal breakers. Codependancy is something to be addressed before I go too far into the deep end. It basically comes down to pros vs cons and risk vs reward. At present things are still worth the effort to me. "If you want something bad enough play through the pain" "Nothing worth having is easy to obtain."

Listen SJB,

Do not get caught up in inspiration quotes and apply them to your love-life, they are a fantistic way to delude yourself into thinking your fighting the good fight but really set you up for hurt and heartache.

To be honest, you contacted way too early, your not ready for this, plain and simple. Only once you have come to terms with what happened before can you handle these situations, by the time that happens you usually have gotten over them (bless N/C).

I think this is folly, done it myself, read about others doing it, very rarely does it turn out well. I know you will not take this advice (I didn't) but rather justify what you are doing in the name of love and fate, regardless I wish you luck.

BMI, I agree totally... He is jumping way too high with things right now. She calls, he calls right back. You haven't adjusted to things wihtout her yet, and she is still dependent on whoever she can latch onto. It seems to me that old problems that caused the relationship to end are just going to come back around and leave you worse than what you were. Is she even going to get help for her dependacy?

Re-living the honeymoon seldom helps. Sooner or later it will be stone cold facts, and old feelings, and behaviors, that need to be resolved... again. The whole question will again be the same as it was, are you both willing to work together, to solve your issues, to the benefit of you both? Not can you still have a good time, with a lot of chemistry.

Well tal, I'm glad you said that, because now we're getting down to the nitty gritty dirty, what went wrong and what can we do to fix it. We had a talk to day focusing on exactly that. Brutal honesty from both of us and talking about what we could do better. I also got emotional feedback from her and her feelings towards me. The reasons for her indecision. And what we can do to correct those issues. I expect more talks with her soon about it. She's still in love with me. She's very hurt by me. I don't trust her. She doesn't trust me. We agreed to start earning eachothers trust back one day at a time. It's a step forward. I feel better having got a lot out in the open with her. I decided, after encouragement from my therapist, that if I am going to be completely open and honest with her, I should do so boldly, and I did. And it got positive results. Still much work to be done, but now we aren't tiptoeing around the issues which means we can actually start talking them out and working on them. She says she wants to fix things. We both agreed to do it one day at a time.

We both agreed to do it one day at a time.
There's hope as long as your willing to work. All to often when the newness, and fun wear off, people just drift apart, looking for new thrills. Relationships are about the work you put in, with your partners help.

She says she wants to fix things. We both agreed to do it one day at a time.

You're headed in the right direction. The willingness of both you to work things out is what is necessary to start over. However, as always remember to take things slow. Good luck and keep us up-to-date.

Guys, here's an update. Still proceeding one day at a time, and slow. She hurt me today. I've decided to forgive her, even though many of you wouldn't. I found out about a rebound guy earlier this week from her being upfront and honest with me, and I was afraid to tell you guys because I didn't want all of you jumping to conclusions. I needed to see things on my own.

The rebound guy: Much older than her, hidden from her parents, they weren't dating, just "more than friends", which she explained meant there sere feelings involved and she was having a physical relationship with him to the point of making out and no farther. She said that they didn't get involved until after the breakup. When she told me about him she didn't tell me all this, just of his existence. All she would tell me is she had to talk to him about "things". Naturally I was uneasy and ready to head to the door and walkout of the situation, but I decided to see how it played out, being as she was being somewhat upfront and honest about it.

Today, I called her to set a definite get together time for our date on Friday. She answered and sounded really upset. I asked her what she was bothering her and she told me she ended things with the other guy today and that it didn't go cleanly. She said that she wanted to see where things go with me and that I deserve better than for her to be sneeking around behind my back with him while she was doing so. I told her I was hurt that she hadn't been completely honest with me to begin with, but I was going to forgive her. I stopped by her work when she got off and she met me in the parking lot. I hung out with her there for a little less than an hour. I asked her, and told her I was only going to ask once and then I would drop it and put a little trust in her, "Are you done with this guy and pursueing anything romantic or physical with anyone else while you are trying to work things out with me?" She said she was done and that all she's been able to think about is me since that last date. She said she was really sorry it had taken this long (almost 2 weeks) for her to decide to end things with him and that she was really worried that she had just screwed up any chance she had had with me by hiding it from me. I forgave her. She assured me I am the only one now and that she believes things will work out with me, but that she wants to go slow and not jump right back into a relationship because she believes that was one of the initial problems with our relationship the first time. We almost skipped dating all together the first time (somewhere around 3-4 dates before we were spending all day every day together). She said she thinks things will work out between us, but she believes we need to do a lot of things differently, which I agree with. She says that I've really changed, and for the better, and I've noticed some positive changes in her as well. I still feel a lot of hurt and some anger towards her, but I'm dealing with it. I especially feel hurt and anger over her hiding this guy from me, but I am taking a leap of faith now by trusting her and giving her the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think she was hiding anything, and she has come clean. Go from there, and as you have said, you skipped the dating process before, so now enjoy it, and have fun getting to know each other, and see where it leads, just be realistic, and keep the eyes open.

I don't think she was hiding anything, and she has come clean. Go from there, and as you have said, you skipped the dating process before, so now enjoy it, and have fun getting to know each other, and see where it leads, just be realistic, and keep the eyes open.


She has come clean, and that's why I forgave her. What she was hiding was the extent of the relationship with this other guy. When she told me about him, he was simply her "friend". All she had told me was that he was a close friend and that they weren't dating. Nothing about being physical with him or anythign else. She had told me when I had asked a week and a half ago that I wasn't in competition with him and I wasn't a backup guy and that she was seeing where things go with me. She hid (and continued) the sudo relationship with him during this time when I had trusted her that nothing was going on. She continued to be physical with him even though she told me nothing was going on. That's what she was hiding. But she ended it today, and came completely clean with me, so I am going to trust her. Sometimes all you have to run on is faith. Trust has to begin somewhere, and I guess this is where its going to start. And yes, we are going to go real slow, and yes, I will keep my eyes open. Thanks Tal.

Being as there are no guarantee's in life, sometimes you just have to make a decision, and follow it as far as you can. As long as you stay honest with yourself, you should be fine. Life will break your heart sometimes, regardless of making all the right moves, and even the best decisions. It's a matter of dealing with whatever happens, and being true to yourself. If your afraid of rejection, you will never try to connect with another human, if your afraid to make a mistake, you'll never take a risk. If you don't try, you'll never have a darn thing. I tell you this because I think your mature eniugh to deal with it. I don't know how your story will end, but I wish the best. Let go of everything, but the notion of enjoying this time, with this female, and just pay attention.

I tell you I'm no fan of having to spread rep around. That was very inspirational T-Man, I absolutely LOVE the part about having your heart broken even though you dothe right thing (although I cannot say I have ever had that happen cause I've never always done the right thing but I'm sure it applies to others)

Consider this a greenie:)

To SJB, Listening and following T-mans advice would be doing the right thing, regardless of the outcome friend.

I concur, BMI, that was one of the best things I've ever seen Tal post on here, not that Tal doesn't always give great words of wisdom that come from real life exerience. I need to spread some rep around as well, consider this a greenie Tal!

On tidbit of information that I found out today about said rebound guy. This will knock you an your arse. She's 21 years old... the rebound guy... he is 41 years old... I'm starting to be suspicious that I wasn't the biggest reason for her ending things with him. I feel a bit like throwing up. My parents are 42 years old. He's old enough to be her father. What kind of a sick pervert goes after someone half his age... not that I blame him entirely... was she thinking getting physical with someone twice as old as her... I'm a little sick right now. When she said slightly older, I was thinking maybe 5 years... not 20!

Opinions?

41 and 21 is gigantic. I, personally would not even date her I found that out. I know that sounds harsh but I know myself and I just could not deal with that. I once dated a girl who dated a guy 8-9 years older and when we got into fights I made much fun of her over it,I know it's the wrong thing to do but I just couldn't deal with it.

I know what you mean when you say it makes you feel sick. Sorry mate, I think you've already put way too much into this without this new info, with this added I say RUN!! These are the decisions she is making?

I'm trying to determine if I can deal with this. Its taking a lot not to yell and scream at her about how stupid this was of her to do. I've openly expressed my disgust to her repeatedly and all she keeps saying is "I'm sorry I'm sorry", "I'm really stupid. I did a really stupid thing", and "I really f***ed things up." I don't know if this was her just making a mistake, or if this kind of stupid selfdestructive behavior is all I'll be able to expect from her now. I don't remember her making stupid decisions like this. Another even worse thought is that it was her acting purely on impulse and hormones, which makes me question her ability to make decisions all together, because that being the case, she didn't even stop to consider the consequences of her actions before acting upon them. Knowing the self esteem issues she has, that could also be a factor in her decision. Seeking validation of her self worth though attention from and approval from the opposite sex. That really only explains the *need* for a rebound and not the age gap though. I told her I need time to figure out if I can deal with this. One time mistake or slippery slope? I need to determine that and I need time to do it. Its disguting in all senses of the word.

I'm sorry I'm ranting, I'm not obsessing, I just need to vent. I'm trying to rationalize it to help myself cope, but its such an irrational act I can't figure it out. It makes no logical sense and therefor I can't grasp it. She "can't explain it" and I can't figure out how to cope. I need time. I'm not going to make the decision to press on or run without taking some time to think about this and whether I can cope with this.

You've got to be kidding right? You act like 41 is ancient. I think you're just pissed that she dated anyone at all and if he had'nt been older you would've found something else to freak out about. I mean come on there are plenty of men over 40 that are crazy-sexy. 2 for example Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp. And that's just 2 off the top of my head.

You've got to be kidding right? You act like 41 is ancient. I think you're just pissed that she dated anyone at all and if he had'nt been older you would've found something else to freak out about. I mean come on their are plenty of men over 40 that are crazy-sexy. 2 for example Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp. And thats just 2 off the top of my head.

Looking is one thing... Its not the "age of 41" I'm hung up on, it's the 20 year age gap. I think a 30 year old with a 50 year old is just as creepy. At 21 she is a child by comparison to a 41 year old. That is what I am hung up on. I find many women in their 30's and 40's to be attactive, but not to the point I would have a physical relationship with them when I'm only 22. I think people should stick in their age range. Yeah it bothered me that there was someone at all, but it was easier to deal with until she much later told me the age difference. If you were a parent in your 40's, even though she is an adult, how would you feel about your daughter having a physical relationship with someone that's about the same age as you are?

SJB I completely agree with you. The age gap alone would make me hesitant. To ItsHisLoss, I wouldn't say it is the fact that it's anyone in fact but the age difference just makes you think twice about things. 41 might not be ancient but 20 years old is not something that should should be taken likely. It's his decision whether to forgive the girl for making that mistake. Personally I don't think I could forgive someone for that type of impulse, because what other bad decisions could she make on impulse

Once you're an adult, the ages go out the window. Sure you may not agree with the choices of others, but you may as well accept it, and let it go, just from the fact it's their choice to make. Its not for us, or anyone else, to try and figure out why people do what they do, that's such a complicated, long process, filled with assumptions, and speculations. Basically a waste of time. You have always heard me say that coping with our feelings, in healthy, positive ways is one life lesson that carries us through our whole life, and that's where your at now SB, and its on you, how you deal with your feelings, and what you do about it. I think you've learned something about yourself, and your attitudes though, that may well give you food for thought now, and in the future. Today it's the age difference of consenting adults. Upfront and right in your face. That's something you need to examine, or at least understand, as older guys will always be attracted to younger females, and vice versa. Is this a deal breaker? Is this something you can't reconcile? Is this something you can't get over? Isn't it funny how life tests our love, and abilities, in ways that shock and scare us? Think about it, as the decision you make will have far reaching consequences in all your future dealings, so best find out, and deal with how you feel. If 54 ain't old, then 40 sure ain't either.

Still, not at 100% but I think it is something I can deal with. The age gap irks me, but its her life and her decisions. I've made plenty of dumba$$ decisions myself, especially at the age I'm at now, and making those mistakes is how I learn and grow. From the feel I got from her today, she is very questioning over that decision and is learning from it. That's what's important. She made some stupid decisions the past couple months, but seems to be learning from them. As for me, I make stupid deciaions every day, including today. I'll leave it at that. Today, the second date, went really well. I have the feeling things will work out between us. Time will tell, one day at a time.

She wants to maintain a friendship with the guy knowing that I am uncomfortable with it. I can't flat out tell her no, but letting her know I am uncomfortable with her continuing a friendship with him did nothing. I am not possessive jealous or controlling on any unhealthy scale and don't mind her having guy friends but this is different. She had/has? "feelings" for him and only recently ended the physical relationship with him and I am threatened by this. I haven't been quite this open to her about it, but what I have said got the response of "deal with it." So much time and emotion already invested in this, I'm not wanting to quit. She assures me that its over with him and that she's just being his friend now. She says she doesn't want to "f*** things up anymore" and wants it to work between me and her, but on this she won't budge. On top of things, the guy just had a heart attack this weekend so now she's upset about that. I'm not in a position to make any demands as far as who she's friends with, but I'm really not comfortable with it. I don't trust him. He's a scumbag lowlife perverted drug addict that pursues girls that are the same age as his daughters (of which he has 2). I kept that opinion to myself. Do I trust her? She assures me its over with him. She's enthusiastic about working on our previous relationship problems and starting again. She says she's still in love with me and isn't involved romatically or physically with anyone else, nor is she looking. Do I bite my tongue until everything stabilizes? I don't want to appear insecure to her, but wouldn't you be in my shoes? Its one obstacle after another. I've gotten through everything so far. Am I making a big deal over nothing?

I guess what I really need to do is just sit down with her and explain my feelings out in the open. Things failed last time due to a communications breakdown and keeping things inside. If we can't communicate openly then this will be doomed from the start. I won't get anywhere being controlling or demanding. Hopefully when I see her this Thursday she will be receptive to listening to me. I think if I approach her the right way and simply explain my feelings that we can work through this. Maybe I am blowing it out of proportion, but I really don't trust this guy, and no matter how much trust I place in her, I can't trust him. I just hope she's smart enough not to put herself in a compromising position with him.

Well I don't think things can get any worse. I got her to finally fess up to everything she was hiding. Everything I suspected is true. But there's a big difference between suspecting and knowing. Where to begin. She started the make out sessions with the guy while we were on a break. I know on here break is generally considered break up but on a technicality it is still cheating. There had been no declaration of it being over. Two days after the break up she slept with him. She said after dealing with the breakup she just wanted meaningless sex but felt like sh!t afterwards. My question, if she felt like sh!t why did she continue her little makeout sessions with him for 2 months? Kind of pointless to ask at any rate. Did I mention I lied to you guys yet? I didn't exactly take things slow. The second date, I slept with her. This of course before she admitted everythign to me. I haven't slept with her since the one time, but still. So this past Saturday, our nice little scheduled lunch date got pretty ing ruined. She spent all day begging and pleading with me. Appologizing to me. Telling me she'd do anything. Desperate for me to forgive her and not walk out of her life. She has now established a history of cheating. She cheated on me and the boyfriend before that. She slept with a guy that's the same age as my dad 2 days after we broke up. I feel strangely numb with slight hints of sadistic torture thoughts drifting through my head. I took this girls virginity and now I guess she felt free to open her legs up to any nasty er that comes along. At any rate I haven't decided what to do yet. The logical thing would be to run as fast as I can. The emotional thing to do would be the same. But I still have feelings for her despite everything. I told her to leave me alone while I think about things. I need some time to myself to absorb everything and sort my thoughts and feelings out. Oh and I haven't lost my head in this. I could have delivered any wild demands I wanted and she would have complied. Instead I was sensible. I said, if I decide to stay she has to agree to random drug tests whenever I feel like it. She isn't to speak to this guy again. And last, I took her to the free clinic and made her get tested for STDs being as I did sleep with her since she slept with the other guy. I know you all will tell me the logical thing to do (to run away fast as I can), but I need to think about things before I decide what to do. I don't think things could get worse. Either way, the worst is over no matter what decision I make. I'll update you guys when I make the decision.

All right, well I haven't posted in a while because I have been busy as hell. However I feel very compelled to respond to your update.

SJB1701E, I think you are a good guy, but I am quickly losing respect for you. I'm honestly very surprised at the things you are saying and doing. First of all, this whole thing about her seeing some guy twice her age... get over it! Personally I'm a little offended because my Mom was 26 and my dad was 52 when I was born. That is a HUGE age gap but they are still married. It's not the greatest marriage but hey not many of them are these days.

Second, its none of your business what she did during the break. When you are on a break you are free to do as you please, no if's, and's, or but's, and there are definitely no "technicalities." Quit holding her past over her head, you have no right to do that. She should not even be asking you for an apology.

Third, your heading down a bad path. You are exhibiting characteristics of potentially being a controlling boyfriend. This whole deal about random drug testings at your will is ridiculous. Again, you have no right to do that. A relationship is about trust, if you don't trust her than get out of this thing before it gets worse.

Fourth, the logical thing is not to run. I'll tell you what the logical thing to do is. The logical thing is to deal with YOUR insecurities about her sleeping with someone else much older than you during a time in which you were not together. Once you have done that, put this whole situation behind you and continue to mend the relationship. Not to long ago you were so hurt about losing her and now that she is back and willing to work things out you want to blindly throw it all away. What's worse is that you are throwing it all away for some very stupid reasons.

Listen, if you truly love this woman than you will accept her for who she is and not force any rules upon her. You will look beyond her flaws, her mistakes, her past and love her for the person she is at this very moment. This girl you love so much is right there in front of you willing to work things out, but I guarantee you will lose her and you will regret it if you continue with your behavior.

Please, don't screw up your second chance.

Confused, I am going to go against you on this one. He isn't screwing up the second chance at all, he is going into this guarded as he should. This girl told him that they just made out and now that she feels she has him back, she is going to drop all the bombs onto him? It would be very wise for you to walk away, as you don't need a liar in your life. If she lied about this, who knows what else she could be hiding. If you stay with her, you're constantly going to question everything she says. It is true that a relationship is about trust, but she servered that trust when she said she only made out with him.

Now I do agree with you about the controlling boyfriend, you can't impose rules onto someone my friend. If she wants to stray, she's going to stray. Simple as that, don't say if she complies with these demands you will feel better, that's a lie. I have been down that road before and she did everything she was supposed to(yes I was a jealous controlling SOB.. keyword.. was) and yet I still questioned her. Once trust is broken between two people, it is very hard to get back. Take this time to think if your life would be better with or without her

Alright, well I haven't posted in a while because I have been busy as hell. However I feel very compelled to respond to your update.

SJB1701E, I think you are a good guy, but I am quickly losing respect for you. I'm honestly very surprised at the things you are saying and doing. First of all, this whole thing about her seeing some guy twice her age...get over it! Personally I'm a little offended because my Mom was 26 and my dad was 52 when I was born. That is a HUGE age gap but they are still married. It's not the greatest marriage but hey not many of them are these days.

Second, its none of your business what she did during the break. When you are on a break you are free to do as you please, no if's, and's, or but's, and there are definitely no "technicalities." Quit holding her past over her head, you have no right to do that. She should not even be asking you for an apology.

Third, your heading down a bad path. You are exhibiting characteristics of potentially being a controlling boyfriend. This whole deal about random drug testings at your will is ridiculous. Again, you have no right to do that. A relationship is about trust, if you don't trust her than get out of this thing before it gets worse.

Fourth, the logical thing is not to run. I'll tell you what the logical thing to do is. The logical thing is to deal with YOUR insecurities about her sleeping with someone else much older than you during a time in which you were not together. Once you have done that, put this whole situation behind you and continue to mend the relationship. Not to long ago you were so hurt about losing her and now that she is back and willing to work things out you want to blindly throw it all away. What's worse is that you are throwing it all away for some very stupid reasons.

Listen, if you truly love this woman than you will accept her for who she is and not force any rules upon her. You will look beyond her flaws, her mistakes, her past and love her for the person she is at this very moment. This girl you love so much is right there in front of you willing to work things out, but I guarantee you will lose her and you will regret it if you continue with your behavior.

Please, don't screw up your second chance.

Ok, confused25 you bring up some good points but let me clarify my position.

First, the age gap isn't the issue, I was just using it as fuel for the fire. The real problem is that it invalidates her feelings for me in my eyes. It took her 2 DAYS before jumping in bed with someone else. How long did she need to get over me? Hell we'd talked on the phone that day for 2 hours trying to work things out before she did it. What was I, chopped liver? May be ego bruising, but good God, how long did it really take her to get over me. Certainly didn't take her very long to get under someone else. How much could she ever really have loved me? How do I know that I'm nothing more than the "safe bet" to her? Plus, it is my business now that I've slept with her since then, even if just once. It was STUPID of me to jump in bed with her, that was my mistake. But in this day and age, where 1 in 4 teenage girls has an STD what do you think the stats are on college age people? Its very much my business who she slept with. I was perfectly in my bounds to ask for an STD test.

Second, a break means space. It doesn't mean break up. It doesn't matter that it usually turns into a break up, its still cheating while just a break. What if it hadn't turned into a break up and a few weeks later the break ended and we picked up the relationship again? Would what she did during the space not count as cheating. If it doesn't than by that logic, all I have to do any time I want to sleep with someone else is ask for a break, sleep with said person, than pick up the relationship where I left off. No harm no foul right? I wouldn't do this but I don't know that she won't.

Third, I have the right to know if I'm dating a cokehead. Coke people. We're not talking a little pot here and there, we're talking coke. A drug that can ruin her life and by extension my life if she's in it. She could be carrying in my car and I get pulled over and searched. They find it on her and I still get busted for having it in my vehicle. And on a personal level, what about the constant WORRY I would have to deal with if she is still on coke? She can KILL herself using it. At that point its not just her life, but the lives of EVERYONE that cares about her, that would be drastically affected. You ever lose someone you love to drugs? I have. My brother DIED overdosing on drugs. I won't lose someone else I love to them. Its not enough to say she's clean, she needs to prove it, to me and everyone else that cares about her. Its never just your life to do with as you please. Growing up, you realise that its everyone else's lives that yours affects and that the consequences of your actions hurt everyone in your life.

One of the things I'm taking time to myself to think about is how I can ever trust her again. Repeated lying. Cheating on 2 boyfriends. Doing serious drugs and lying to EVERYONE about it. I'm not trying to control her life, but I'm not willing to let her life drag my life down. When someone you love is hurting themselves, you step in. That isn't controlling, that's caring. If she where having thoughts of suicide and putting a gun to herr head every night, is it none of my business, or do I step in? If I see her doing drugs that could kill her, is it none of my business or do I step in? At some point you HAVE to step in. My choices are step in or walk away. I'm not puttig myself in a position to lose someone else I love to drugs. And to be honest I don't think with everything, that that one demand is enough for me to be considered controlling. And I know you didn't bring it up, but asking her not to speak to the guy again is very acceptable given the circumstances. It was a non-issue when I asked it of her and she had no problem with it.

Romefalls19 is exactly right about trust and that she severed my trust and furthermore my respect for her. I don't think I am being overly controlling. I asked 3 things of her and that was it. You guys only made an issue of one of them. I hope I made my position clear on it and why its so important to me because I want you guys to understand why. I have no more demands for her. Thouse 3 things were all I asked of her. I wouldn't drug test her for life, just maybe 3-4 times over the next 6 months. Enough to prove she's staying clean and that she isn't addicted. I don't believe her to be addicted, but I need to know she's staying clean.

If I was truly being controlling, she wouldn't have a choice about things. She does. She can accept the ONE big thing I asked of her or she can walk away. She chose to accept it. She AGREED to it. She even wants me to show the results to her parents as well so that they will stop worrying. They trust me. They don't trust her. She knows if I telll them the tests are negative, they'll believe she really is off coke. She accepted it so it shouldn't even be an issue.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but I needed to clarify my positions and I'm trying to sort through everything in my head. I need time before I decide what to do. I don't know at what point I could ever trust her again. I don't know at what point I could ever be intimate with her without thinking about the other guy. I don't know if I can ever respect her again. I don't have any other demands of her. This isn't going to be a pattern of controlling behavior. Three conditions and that is all. Three conditions that she accepted. I hardly abused it when she said she'd do anything to keep me from walking out of her life. I only asked for three things.

confused25, I hope you can respect my reasons for everything. I hope you haven't lost respect for me now that I've told you why I asked for the things I asked for. And I'm sorry for offending you with the age thing, please realise I was looking at it from a personal point-of-view, and that I wasn't saying it is wrong for any people to be together with an age gap. I'm sure your parents are wonderful people to have raised a good guy like you and I don't see anything wrong with their age gap. It wasn't a morals thing, it was a personal thing.

He isn't screwing up the second chance at all, he is going into this guarded as he should. This girl told him that they just made out and now that she feels she has him back, she is going to drop all the bombs onto him?

This, my friend, describes exactly how I feel about it.

SJB, I have been in your situation exactly to a T! I did the whole this or that scenario with an ex and it's not a good route to go down. If you can't move past it with no restrictions then it's best to let it go

I know nothing but time could ever let me trust her again. Nothing I ask her to do will instantly restore my trust or respect for her. I look at her and see two people. The woman I love and know, and the woman that she was after we broke up. I love the first and Hate the second. I look at her with a sick mix of disgust and affection. Part of my want to throw up just looking at her and the other part wants to do nothing but hold her and kiss her. Its like I see her as two different people, but intellectually I know that its all just her as a whole. One person. It makes it easier in some regards to think of it as a different person as to not sully the image I have of her, but that's not reality. Her actions, while some would say they are her business (even when they directly affect me), speak for her character and the type of person she is. Restoring real trust and respect for her might take nothing short of an act of God, and I need some time to figure out if I want to give her the chance. I know there's nothing I can ask of her that will restore my trust in her. Only time, if I give her a chance.

Only time, if I give her a chance.

Red Flag? When you try to change someone into what you think they should be its not love, nor is it acceptance for who they are. Yes, I see a big problem with the path your on right now, as your finding out things you cannot accept, but you must acknowledge ...............you asked for it!

Only time, if I give her a chance.

Red Flag? When you try to change someone into what you think they should be its not love, nor is it acceptance for who they are. Yes, I see a big problem with the path your on right now, as your finding out things you cannot accept, but you must acknowledge ...............you asked for it!

Out of context tal... I wasn't saying I can change her over time, I was saying my respect and trust for her can only be gained again over time. She's wanting to be the person she used to be. She says she hates what she became. I believe her and I see her making the effort to do so ON HER OWN. I'm still going to think about this for a while and whether I can forgive her of her mistakes. I know I either have to accept her or not. I'm not wanting to change her. I just don't want to be in a position to be hurt again if she starts going down a dark and dangerous path again. I'm just being guarded. I'm not trying to change her. She's trying to change for herself and for her own well being. I believe her and I see it happening.

As for the drug testing, I talked to her today about a lot of things. I went back on what I said and decided to still do one drug test, and only one, just so I could get her parents off my back by giving them proof that she's off them. This will make both my life and hers easier if they stop worrying so much. She thought it was a great idea. She looked me in the eye and promised (on her own) that she won't use them anymore, that she hated what they did to her, and that she doesn't want to be that person anymore. That was good enough for me.

As for the other guy, it has nothing to do with his age or what or who he is. It has nothing to do with whether we were broke up or not. It has to do with my perception of her and my opinion of her. She jumped in bed with a guy two DAYS after we broke up like the two years we had together meant nothing to her. She took no time to grieve and wasn't upset at all. Like I meant NOTHING to her. That's where the hurt comes from. She called it revenge sex like she was getting back at me. She said I hurt her and at the time she wanted something to hurt me back with. She said it only made her feel worse and now that I found out she wished it never happen. She regrets it happened at all. I just got to figure out if its something I can get past.

[QUOTE=SJB1701E] She jumped in bed with a guy two DAYS after we broke up like the two years we had together meant nothing to her. She took no time to grieve and wasn't upset at all. Like I meant NOTHING to her.

Do you honestly think she split up with you and then just happened upon this guy only two days after you broke up. At best, she left you for him, at worst, she was seeing him when you were still together.

Remember, the best indicator of future behaviour is past actions. Be very careful.

She jumped in bed with a guy two DAYS after we broke up like the two years we had together meant nothing to her. She took no time to grieve and wasn't upset at all. Like I meant NOTHING to her.

Do you honestly think she split up with you and then just happened upon this guy only two days after you broke up. At best, she left you for him, at worst, she was seeing him when you were still together.

Remember, the best indicator of future behaviour is past actions. Be very careful.

I'm not so naïve... I know that she was interested in him prior to the break up. I was being an uncaring jack@ss to her due to emotional problems of my own and not being able to cope with circumstances in other areas of my life. I shut her out emotionally months before the breakup. In her words, and I happen to agree with her on this, when she gave up on me, it was long after I had already given up on myself. She said I hated myself so much, it made it difficult for her to love me. She eventually gave up. I blame her for her actions, but I set myself up for her to leave me and for another guy to swoop in like a vulture. Vultures circle something when they know its going to die soon. This guy told her just what she wanted to hear and gave her what I stopped giving her. And the guy got what he wanted, a halfway decent lay. She started making out with him before we broke up. She slept with him after. I believe her on this. That being said, her leaving me for this guy appears the more likely senario in this case. That's how I see it. I also see him as nothing more than a rebound to her. I know its not the healthiest thing, and I know she is responsible for her own actions, but I do blame myself more than anyone for this whole mess.

I would also like to say she has admitted to making out with him before the breakup... i.e. cheating... and to sleeping with him after the break up. Its not like she's still lying to me. What would be the point? She's already told me the worst news. Even if she did sleep with him prior to the breakup, it wouldn't really make a difference at this point. Cheating is cheating no matter how far you actually go. You see, at this point there is no point to keep lying to me and hiding things from me. What difference would it make. It would be lying about pointles symantics. Anything short of "I had to abort his b@st@rd child" wouldn't really make a difference now would it? What news could she possibly be hiding at this point that would be worse than what she already told me? Even if she slept with him more than once it wouldn't make a difference. She can't really drop any worse bombs than she's already dropped.

I would also like to say she has admitted to making out with him before the breakup... i.e. cheating... and to sleeping with him after the break up. Its not like shes still lying to me. What would be the point? Shes already told me the worst news. Even if she did sleep with him prior to the breakup, it wouldn't really make a difference at this point. Cheating is cheating no matter how far you actually go. You see, at this point there is no point to keep lying to me and hiding things from me. What difference would it make. It would be lying about pointles symantics. Anything short of "I had to abort his b@st@rd child" wouldn't really make a difference now would it? What news could she possibly be hiding at this point that would be worse than what she already told me? Even if she slept with him more than once it wouldn't make a difference. She can't really drop any worse bombs than shes already dropped.

So why take someone back who has done that? I think you are making excuses for her, and I don't think she comprehends the way she has behaved. The red flags Tal refers to are clearly there.

Even if you do get back together, will you be able to forget this behaviour? If yes, go for it, if not, I think you could be storing up resentment for a later date.

I haven't made any decisions as of yet. Just sorting everything out. Like I said, I hold her fully responsible for her own actions. I also hold myself responsible for my actions. If you saw the shattered girl I see now, you would see she fully comprehends the scope of her actions, however only after she committed them. She understands what she did and the people it hurt and exactly what she became. I know this from observation. She saw herself in the mirror metaphorically speaking. She didn't think through the consequences of her actions before committing them, which is a testement to her maturity, but she realises what she has done after the fact and owns up to her mistakes, which also stands as a testement to her maturity.
I'm not making any decisions until I take time to think about things.

Or you could conclude her life was a wreck, and she wants you to save her from herself. Another red flag.

Or you could conclude her life was a wreck, and she wants you to save her from herself. Another red flag.

Absolutely. She is not some teenager either. She is a grown woman who should have her own life in control.

I think you should take a step back. Does she see you as the sticking plaster for her problems? In other words, was this behaviour she carried out inevitable no matter who she was with? If you think that is a possibility, you have another red flag. You do not want to spend your whole life being a nurse for someone.

You can only help someone so much, at some point they need to start helping themselves.

I think stepping back is a wise idea at this point also, as if she is seeking to change, she would be doing so, for herself, and not just to win you over. I also think your taking too much blame to explain her bad behavior, which is also a very red flag, that leaves you vulnerable to some illogical conclusions. Case in point, her turning to someone else to get revenge, for YOUR behavior, NOT LOGICAL AT ALL, and begs to her thinking, and character, as to the course she chose instead of communicating, and working with you directly. At the very least, voicing her displeasure. Sorry guy, all I see is you being a fall back position for her. I have been in the drug counseling field for the last 15 years, and the first rule is never believe what a user is saying, unless they have the actions to back up their words. I'm passing that rule to you.

I love the slippery slope this discussion has taken. She's not being needy of me. She not asking anything of me. She's not attepting to change just to keep me around. I haven't offered her anything other than a pair of ears to listen to her. She's getting her life under control for herself not for me. She took a few steps down a bad path, made a few bad choices. Everyone does. The nature of those mistakes isn't nessesarily the most important thing, rather, its how we learn from them. Her actions, she is learning from them. I place more faith in my gut and intuition and my ability to observe her actions than her words. Admittedly, for the time being, I don't trust a word out of her mouth at face value. But when I see it being backed up by actions, attitude changes, and clues such as her physical appearance (in relation to drug use), my gut tells me she is walking towards a better path. We're nt talking years of addiction and wh0ring herself. We're talking about a girl who experimented with some dangerous substances and made some bad coices during a *brief* rough period of her life. Yeah she is responsible for those choices, but we have all made horrible mistakes in our past. That's how we are shaped into the people we are today. Anyway, I already backed off from pursuing a relationship with her until she finishes working on herself. I don't want to be in her way, nor do I want to be a crutch. Plus I still have a lot of issues to deal with myself. Things are kind of on hold, and they have been since before this latest bomb of bad news. We have been spending time together, but no more than once a week. And we aren't getting back in bed with each other for the time being. Both of us felt it was for the best. I don't see the situation as being as degenerated as you guys do, but I do realise you are trying to protect me and you are right in steering me to be cautious. I think in my anger I blew the situation out of proportion rather than examining it in a more rational manner. I'm not going to make excuses for her, nor blame myself for her behavoir, just when in an emotional state, its sometimes easier to try and rationalise things, even if your conclusions are skewed.

I have thought for as long as I feel I need to about the situation and I feel that confused25 was right. She's standing here in front of me willing to work things out and I do still love her. I am willing to look past mistakes and forgive. Everyone makes mistakes. I criticized her for her brief drug use when I myself was abusing alcohol heavily after the breakup. Substance abuse is substance abuse legal or not. It really speaks to my own character that I was drinking my problems away. I try to be a good guy... I'm not always perfect.. neither will she ever be. She's eating normally and coming back up to a healthy weight again, and the dark circles have disappeared from her eyes which are all good signs she's not doing coke any more. Her personality is more like her old self, if not a little broken and sad over the way she became. I think this weekend was a sobering experience for her in more ways than one. I think the worst is over and we can start healing. We're not at the point where we as individuals can support a truly healthy relationship so we're still going slow, but we are supporting each other and are willing to work together to get past this. She's still working on forgiving me for shutting her out emotionally before the breakup. I'll still be working on forgiving her for the lying and the cheating and for her actions after the break up for a while but we'll both get past this. I have faith. I don't know how religious you all are, but I'm sure you can respect that I am. There's a New Testement passage that have been thinking about while trying to sort this out.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 NIV

@Tal, you brought up some very valid points in your last response but I will say, emotional behavior is rarely logical. Her actions do reflect on her character, but they also reflect on her state of mind at the time. We can all say we've acted in ways and done things outside of our normal behavior that we regret. We both were responsible for the relationship failing, as happens in most breakups. Blame is on both of us. I will say she did try to communicate with me for a long time but I shut her out. And I am still being catious about the drug use. I'm keeping my eyes open.

Sometimes that's all we can do is stay alert, and do our best, for ourselves and others. Its so easy to give advice to others as to what they should be doing, but we can never know the whole entire story, or be there first hand to see the whole picture. You are though and owe it to yourself to be realistic and levelheaded as you go forward. Its not easy at all to forget, and harder to forgive, but those are very valuable healing tools, and to have any future, you must trust. Not just her but yourself. Having that second chance is somewhat unique, and must be taken with a clarity of mind, and heart as the risks are great, as are the rewards. It remains to be seen if you can establish good honest communications, and work through all of this, together. For sure you have to put the ghosts of the past away, and start anew, and see things with fresh eyes that forgiveness brings. While you forgive her, don't forget to forgive yourself, as your right, we all have acted badly in our pasts, but we learn, and never forget the lessons we learned, so they don't come back, and bite us in the a$$... again.
Just an aside, make sure you both balance your lives so you can grow as individuals, and contribute to each others lives in a healthy way. You already know that smothering and individual, is no good, and neither is losing yourself in a relationship.
I know I come off as the bad guy sometimes, but only want you to think as much as you feel, so you can make better decisions for yourself. There is no hurry with love, my friend, and it pays to take the time to do it right, and build things slowly, so they can last.

As you can see my efforts at making paragraphs has failed miserably.

Sometimes thats all we can do is stay alert, and do our best, for ourselves and others. Its so easy to give advice to others as to what they should be doing, but we can never know the whole entire story, or be there first hand to see the whole picture. You are though and owe it to yourself to be realistic and levelheaded as you go forward. Its not easy at all to forget, and harder to forgive, but those are very valuable healing tools, and to have any future, you must trust. Not just her but yourself. Having that second chance is somewhat unique, and must be taken with a clarity of mind, and heart as the risks are great, as are the rewards. It remains to be seen if you can establish good honest communications, and work thru all of this, together. For sure you have to put the ghosts of the past away, and start anew, and see things with fresh eyes that forgiveness brings. While you forgive her, don't forget to forgive yourself, as your right, we all have acted badly in our pasts, but we learn, and never forget the lessons we learned, so they don't come back, and bite us in the a$$ .............again.
Just an aside, make sure you both balance your lives so you can grow as individuals, and contribute to each others lives in a healthy way. You already know that smothering and individual, is no good, and neither is losing yourself in a relationship.
I know I come off as the bad guy sometimes, but only want you to think as much as you feel, so you can make better decisions for yourself. There is no hurry with love, my friend, and it pays to take the time to do it right, and build things slowly, so they can last.

That means a lot to me tal, and you are absolutely right about trust and forgiveness and that I need to be able to do both towards myself as well as her. Letting go of my own mistakes is something I struggle with constantly. I hope I can learn from them and forgive myself and am trying to do so. I'm trying to stay level headed as best I can and am trying to go forward with a mix of caution, clear headedness, and forgiveness (of myself and her).

Oh and tal, I've never seen you as the bad guy. I may not always agree with you because as you said, I'm here with all the details and you aren't, but I always do understand your point of view and why you give the advice you give. I'm not so close minded as block out what I don't want to hear and ALL of your advice has been and continues to be very appreciated. I'm glad to have you as my voice of reason when I need it and I'm always glad to have an outside point of view. Even advice I disagree with opens new avenues of thought to consider and helps me make better decisions. I never think of you as the bad guy, if anything, you're just brutally honest, and sometimes people like me need brutal honesty. That's what I like about you. Your honesty, experience, and wisdom are always appreciated.

Thanks, I appreciate the good words.

UPDATE

Well its been close to 2 months now since I started this unothodox path. Things are going well I'm happy to say. After having talked through a lot of things, we are putting mistakes in the past, and while learning from them, are forgiving each other and moving on from them together. We spend 1-2 days a week together which is a lot healthier than the 4-6 we used to do. We both have plenty of time to ourselves and to pursue other activities and spend time with friends and family. Everyone , family, friends, and myself have noticed a positive change in her. She's drug free, rebuilding her relationship with her parents, looking healthy again (she looked aweful from the drug use), just got a promotion at work, and hanging out with a good crowd again. The biggest improvement over our old relationship is that she treats me very respectfully now. It makes it a lot easier to respect her. She's acting much more mature now, taking on new responsibilities and keeping her temper in check. We have had a few disagreements thusfar that would have turned into screaming matches before but now turn into respectful conversations and compromise. While its still early to tell anything long term, things as of now are going really well. There is a huge amount of communication and openness now that wasn't there before. There is still a long ways to go, but as of now things are stable and growing. Neediness and clingyness haven't been an issue this time. She doesn't get jealous of my friends as she used to. Things are healthy, and if they keep progressing in this positive way, everything will be OK. Thanks everyone, esp. tal and confused25

Good luck man keep us updated

Awesome! I am truly happy for you! It's great to hear about relationships that go awry but then slowly get back on track. It's still a little too early to tell exactly how things will go, but you are on the right path. Just keep going slow, stay patient, and communicate. I'm rooting for you dude, and I hope to eventually add this one to the happy ending column. Keep us updated.