Hello Christians:

We have a nice argument going on about Obamas pastor. Most people think he's a separatist. I don't know that he's not...

But my questions are about YOU. Does YOUR church teach that America is a Christian nation? Certainly, my experience on these boards tell me that it’s not an unpopular belief among Christians. Do you believe it? If you don't, and you hear it in church, do you say anything about it? Do you stay in that church? If your church doesn't teach that, do you know of other churches that do? What do you do about that?

Do you think that the belief that America is a Christian nation is a belief that divides us, or brings us together? Do you care?

excon

Define Christian nation?

I think the idea that America is (or was) a Christian nation
1. Has never been true, so is a huge urban legend, and
2. Does more to divide than bring us together.

Our nation was founded with the presumption that there is a God but that's about as far as it goes.

Sort of related but sort of not: Even the founding fathers were unclear about their faith and even hypocritical in that they affirmed equality and "inalienable rights" yet many had slaves.

Hello Scott:

Well, that's the question, isn't it? If there are those who believe that we ARE Christian nation, maybe THEY can define it.

excon

I think the idea that America is (or was) a Christian nation
1. Has never been true, so is a huge urban legend, and
2. Does more to divide than bring us together.Hello Rick:

I don't know. I hope what you're saying is true. Frankly, my experience with what Christians believe is pretty much limited to these boards. I do, however, recall quite a few Christians declaring on these boards that America is, indeed, a Christian nation. No?

excon

You are right. That's why I call it a huge urban legend :)

Anyone who reads even a little can fairly easily find that very few of the founding fathers were even Christian at all. Most were Deists (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deist).

Hello again Rick:

I'm not arguing whether we ARE a Christian nation or not. It's clear that we're not. I just wondered what the people think who don't share our beliefs.

excon

Let me ease your mind. John Adams was one of the most Christian of the Founders . He signed a treaty of friendship with the Tripoli jihadists... ooops pirates . Article 11 of the treaty states :


As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries

We inherited a Judeo-Christian heritage no doubt about it .It is reflected in many of our laws and traditions .But it is also true that the Enlightement played a crucial role in our founding .

let me ease your mind.

Tom,
If this forum allowed ratings I would give you a huge Greenie for that post. I think it was the perfect answer.

excon

You're simply mixing categories, a nation cannot be baptized; therefore it cannot be Christian nor can it have any other human qualities.

Hi readers I'm new to this so please forgive my mistakes.
In my opinion for what it's worth christianity and alike have a lot to answer for in today's society. It could be said that religion is the cause of most wars around the world which if you go to Gods teachings says quite clearly... THOUGH SHALL NOT KILL... There are those who wish to control humanity and I think many centuries ago it was a way of controlling the multitudes, those who preached the most and gained most followers became the more powerful, actually not unlike today thinking about it anyway there are those in religious followings that are out for pure personal gain which is very sad for many who are taken in by them parting with treasure possesions and so on.
God and the devil I personally prefer to call them GOOD AND BAD you only have to look around you to appreciate the GOOD we have I'm sure done things in our life that we new we shouln't have and have been punished one way or another for it that's the BAD
I know if I've gone against my intuition things always go wrong. I believe we were given this by the power of GOOD or if you like the choice to do right or wrong

Yes I do believe there is a GOOD GUY up there that sees all what ever you want to call him

My apologies if I've not quite got the hang of it I'll get there

I think to say we are a Christian nation is not accurate, although ideal, not reality. This nation was founded on Christian beliefs but has since been developed into a nation of morals and value based on personal preference. It is a smorgasboard of beliefs based on what works best for your preference. Not a nation that values the ideals of the Bible or follows the example of Christ. I believe it would unite us to possess values and morals that are consistent with the two most important commandments of what Christ taught; love your GOD with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Clearly there are others but if we start with those that is a great start.

The ethic of reciprocity transcends christianity:
Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions (http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm)

The ethic of reciprocity transcends christianity:
Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions (http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm)


The split lies in who is your GOD... is it confuscious, buddha, allah, yourself, Jesus Christ, etc That is what divides the nation, a christian nation would all follow Jesus Christ

Hi Ex :)

No, I don't think we are nor would I want us to be. I want us to continue to be free to choose to be or not.

I like it separate and I think it should be separate.

I believe America was primarily a Christian nation, when it was first formed and during a lot of its early history, I believe Christian concepts were included in a large amount of our early laws. We see the 10 commandants even displayed in the Supreme Court of the US.
Most of the sessions of Congress are started in prayer, Most US presidents were sworn in with a bible. Until recently all military Chaplains were Christian.

I would say that since the majority of the US are not really Christian, a majority may still go to christian churches or belong, most have little real active faith that they live by.

I have said many times on the boards, that the US has not been a Christian nation for some time.

Hello Christians:

We have a nice argument going on about Obamas pastor. Most people think he's a separatist. I dunno that he's not.....

But my questions are about YOU. Does YOUR church teach that America is a Christian nation? Certainly, my experience on these boards tell me that it's not an unpopular belief among Christians. Do you believe it? If you don't, and you hear it in church, do you say anything about it? Do you stay in that church? If your church doesn't teach that, do you know of other churches that do? What do you do about that?

Do you think that the belief that America is a Christian nation is a belief that divides us, or brings us together? Do you care?

excon
Truth... the United states main religion is Christianity and that is a fact. So I guess you could say it is a christian nation. But there are so many other cultures and religions in our country also. But the CHURCH! I have never heard them say that we are a christian nation. I hear them say that christians need to speak up and defend their religion.

I think it is how you define Christians. Having the love of Christ in your heart, and trying our very best to follow His teachings, then yes that would be my definition of a Christian.

However, I see so much the oppostite, that I would much prefer to be identified as an American, proud at that, and practice my faith in a free way, that was granted to me by those who keep it free and who have given their lives so that we may freely believe in whatever it is we believe.

I think to rubberstamp America in anyway - is isolating so many other wonderful Americans.

Let's keep Church and State separate.

( nice avaitar by the way Sasa :)

Truth...the United states main religion is Christianity and that is a fact.

Actually that's false. The United States doesn't have a religion main or otherwise. This is specifically stated in the Constitution. It may be true that a majority of Americans practice some form of Christianity, but that doesn't make it the "main" religion nor does it make the US a Christian nation.

I believe that the Founding Fathers believed in the Judeo-Christian ethic. That may be what most people mean when referring to the US as a christian nation.

Hello Christians:

We have a nice argument going on about Obamas pastor. Most people think he's a separatist. I dunno that he's not.....

But my questions are about YOU. Does YOUR church teach that America is a Christian nation? Certainly, my experience on these boards tell me that it’s not an unpopular belief among Christians. Do you believe it? If you don't, and you hear it in church, do you say anything about it? Do you stay in that church? If your church doesn't teach that, do you know of other churches that do? What do you do about that?

Do you think that the belief that America is a Christian nation is a belief that divides us, or brings us together? Do you care?

excon

I believe the United States is a Christian nation because it was founded by Christians based on Christian values.
James Watkins: Were the Founding Fathers of the United States Christians? (http://watkins.gospelcom.net/foundingfathers.htm)


One fundamental Christian value is the freedom of conscience.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1782 (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1782.htm)

Sincerely,

De Maria

I think the idea that America is (or was) a Christian nation
1. Has never been true, so is a huge urban legend, and
2. Does more to divide than bring us together.

Our nation was founded with the presumption that there is a God but that's about as far as it goes.

Sort of related but sort of not: Even the founding fathers were unclear about their faith and even hypocritical in that they affirmed equality and "inalienable rights" yet many had slaves.

Although some of the founding Fathers were Deists, they were Christians in the sense that they believed and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. And when they forged the Constitution, they based it on Christian principles.

Sincerely,

De Maria

But what does it matter. Sorry, I don't and I mean this with all truth... what does it matter any disrespect.
In the end, we know, we all will receive the information to make a choice to believe or not to believe.

I am so sorry to say that I just don't want the two to mix. If my President says I can do something, and my faith says otherwise, I hope I make the choice based on faith.

Some things need to stay earthly - Just my opinion.

Although some of the founding Fathers were Deists, they were Christians in the sense that they believed and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. And when they forged the Constitution, they based it on Christian principles.

Sincerely,

De Maria

What Christian principles? I'm not arguing with you (yet). But I'm wondering what Christain principles are specifically in the Constitution or that it was based on.

I'll also point out that the Founding Fathers whiffed on one of the most unChristian prinicples in founding this country. Can you guess what that was?

Scott be fair . Had they tried to resolve the question of slavery at the 1787 convention this country would never had been founded. I don't call it a wiff . It is more like a punt.

Scott be fair . Had they tried to resolve the question of slavery at the 1787 convention this country would never had been founded. I don't call it a wiff . It is more like a punt.

I totally agree. The time was not yet ripe to deal with that question. But that doesn't change the fact that it was still an unChristian principle that became part of this nation's birth.

But I do have a point in mind depending on how De Maria answers me.

I totally agree. The time was not yet ripe to deal with that question. But that doesn't change the fact that it was still an unChristian principle that became part of this nation's birth.

Upon what do you say that slavery is "...an unChristian principle..."?

Upon what do you say that slavery is "...an unChristian principle..."?

Are you saying that Slavery is a Christain principle?

Hello again:

Please. I'm not interested in WHY you think this is a Christian nation. We've been over that ground before, and you're patently wrong.

But, I really want you to answer the SOCIAL questions I raised about your belief - not the RELIGIOUS ones.

excon

Hello Christians:

We have a nice argument going on about Obamas pastor. Most people think he's a separatist. I dunno that he's not.....

But my questions are about YOU. Does YOUR church teach that America is a Christian nation? Certainly, my experience on these boards tell me that it’s not an unpopular belief among Christians. Do you believe it? If you don't, and you hear it in church, do you say anything about it? Do you stay in that church? If your church doesn't teach that, do you know of other churches that do? What do you do about that?

Do you think that the belief that America is a Christian nation is a belief that divides us, or brings us together? Do you care?

excon
I have never heard a pastor in the church I attend say we are a Christian nation; we have never recited the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, that I recall. My impression is that most pastors are not concerned with ginning interest in politics. In fact, I've never heard a pastor say remember to vote.
Someone above made a good point: A nation can not be baptized, therefore it can't be a Christian. I suppose Constantine took a different view, but that was in another place and time. I believe most mainline Protestant and white churches hold to the separation of church and state. For all the palaver about President Bush and his faith, you never see an ad where he is saying go to church this Sunday, or anything like that.
The U.S. is primarily and fundamentally an offshoot of England. As such, it is a nation of law, not faith. The cornerstone, In my opinion, is the Declaration of Independence, upon which the constitution and laws protecting the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are based.

Are you saying that Slavery is a Christain principle?
Dear Scott: Are you answering a question with a question?

I have never heard a pastor in the church I attend say we are a Christian nation; we have never recited the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, that I recall. My impression is that most pastors are not concerned with ginning interest in politics. In fact, I've never heard a pastor say remember to vote.
Someone above made a good point: A nation can not be baptized, therefore it can't be a Christian. I suppose Constantine took a different view, but that was in another place and time. I believe most mainline Protestant and white churches hold to the separation of church and state. For all the palaver about President Bush and his faith, you never see an ad where he is saying go to church this Sunday, or anything like that.
The U.S. is primarily and fundamentally an offshoot of England. As such, it is a nation of law, not faith. The cornerstone, IMHO, is the Declaration of Independence, upon which the constitution and laws protecting the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are based.


Very Well said George.

What Christian principles?

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


Here we see that God is recognized as the Creator and Chief Legislator from whom all good things come. We see also a respect for due process. And a respect for the dignity of man. These are all Christian principles.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,

Christian principle.

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

Christian principle

that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...

Christian principles

I could go on and on, but this should be sufficient.


I'm not arguing with you (yet).

Ready when you are.


But I'm wondering what Christain principles are specifically in the Constitution or that it was based on.

In the Constitution itself? The very idea of a government based on the rule of law is a Christian principle.

In addition,

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,

Unity of people which has always been the will of God.

establish Justice,

Christian principle

insure domestic Tranquility,

Essentially seeking of peace. Christian principle.

provide for the common defence,

Defence of home, Christian principle.

promote the general Welfare,

Alleviate suffering, Christian principle

and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

The right to govern freely. Christian principle.


I'll also point out that the Founding Fathers whiffed on one of the most unChristian prinicples in founding this country. Can you guess what that was?

Slavery is not a principle but a sin. Adultery also existed during that time and prostitution. Those are things which could not, at the time, be legislated out of existence. In fact, slavery, prostitution and all types of sin, exist even today. And their existence does not undo the basic foundation upon which this country was built.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Hello George:

Cool. I can scratch you off my list. However, there's a BIG segment of Christiandom that believes other than you. I want to hear from them...

Or, maybe they're not so big. Maybe there's only a few. But, I somehow think there's a LOT.

So, in all the time you've been a Christian, you've never heard from any of them that this is a Christian nation?? Hmmmm. I'm not a Christian, and I hear it all the time... What makes me so special? And, if you did hear it, I wonder if you mentioned the Declaration to them...

This is kind of like the Jewish question. Everybody has a Jewish friend. But, when you do the math, you'll see that there ain't enough of us to go around. Somebody is lying...

excon

Hello George:

Cool. I can scratch you off my list. However, there's a BIG segment of Christiandom that believes other than you. I wanna hear from them....

Or, maybe they're not so big. Maybe there's only a few. But, I somehow think there's a LOT.

So, in all the time you've been a Christian, you've never heard from any of them that this is a Christian nation???? Hmmmm. I'm not a Christian, and I hear it all the time.... What makes me so special? And, if you did hear it, I wonder if you mentioned the Declaration to them.....

This is kinda like the Jewish question. Everybody has a Jewish friend. But, when you do the math, you'll see that there ain't enough of us to go around. Somebody is lying..............

excon


Have I told you lately... that I love you. :) I promise you I have several Jewish friends and I love them dearly and they love me :).

Ex - I promise you, I have never heard a priest say this is a Christian country.

God forgive me, but where do they get off? This is how religious wars get started... at least I think.

How can they claim, something THAT IS NOT THEIRS to claim. It is all of ours.

Just ask them to sit down and pass the popcorn. ;)

Love you

Hello Christians:

Do you think that the belief that America is a Christian nation is a belief that divides us, or brings us together? Do you care?

excon

Sorry, I jumped to the wrong conclusion.

Christianity always divides people because it makes them decide good over evil, right over wrong.

Matthew 10 34 Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And as a man's enemies shall be they of his own household.

That is why this country is hated throughout the world and that is why Christianity is despised. We are our Master's disciples:

John 15 20 Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.

But if a country embraces Christianity that makes a country stronger because by doing so, they call down the blessings of God:

Deuteronomy 28 2 And all these blessings shall come upon thee and overtake thee: yet so if thou hear his precepts,

Sincerely,

De Maria

Maybe some Jews have lot's of Christian friends ?

Ex ;I will also say that at Catholic Churches there is never talk of this being a Christian nation. But there are many Christians who think we are apostate anyway .

Christianity always divides people because it makes them decide good over evil, right over wrong.

De Maria with the beautiful name... Nooooo it's people who divide, not those that love Christ.

Are you telling me, that you ALWAYS choose right over wrong, you knees never weaken?

Of course that is not what you are saying. We all try to do right over wrong and let the evil be handled by God, not us. We have too much work on ourselves to do.

We have to be careful and not stand on a pedestal and look down on people - because I think that has an element of evil in it. And that is not what I believe God wants from us.

There is only one God. The job has been filled.

I have never heard a pastor in the church I attend say we are a Christian nation; we have never recited the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, that I recall. My impression is that most pastors are not concerned with ginning interest in politics. In fact, I've never heard a pastor say remember to vote.
Someone above made a good point: A nation can not be baptized, therefore it can't be a Christian. I suppose Constantine took a different view, but that was in another place and time. I believe most mainline Protestant and white churches hold to the separation of church and state. For all the palaver about President Bush and his faith, you never see an ad where he is saying go to church this Sunday, or anything like that.
The U.S. is primarily and fundamentally an offshoot of England. As such, it is a nation of law, not faith. The cornerstone, IMHO, is the Declaration of Independence, upon which the constitution and laws protecting the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are based.

Have you ever heard the Battle hymn of the Republic sung in your Church. We sing it every fourth of July:

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;

This is from the Bible. The Lord refers to Jesus:
Luke 2 29 Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; 30 Because my eyes have seen thy salvation,

He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;

Vintage means wine. Wine is the fruit of the grape.

Apocalypse 14 10 He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb.

He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;

Ezechiel 29 8 Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I will bring the sword upon thee: and cut off man and beast out of thee.


His truth is marching on.

John 14 6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.


Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

John 1 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Psalms 20 6 His glory is great in thy salvation: glory and great beauty shalt thou lay upon him.

Psalms 104

1 Alleluia. Give glory to the Lord, and call upon his name: declare his deeds among the Gentiles.

This hymn has been sung for centuries in the United States. I'm pretty sure it assumes belief in Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Have you ever heard the Battle hymn of the Republic sung in your Church. We sing it every fourth of July:This hymn has been sung for centuries in the United States. I'm pretty sure it assumes belief in Christ.Hello, De Maria:

Well, there you have it. I've sung that hymm before. I don't believe in Christ. I'm going to sing it again too. It's got a great beat.

excon

Yup and Irving Berlin was a great Christian also . "God Bless America......"

yup and Irving Berlin was a great Christian also . "God Bless America......"Hello again, tom:

Really?? I thought he was a yid. Hmmm, his birth name is Israel Isidore Baline. That's a nice Christian name.

excon

I was joking... Happy Purim

Have you ever heard the Battle hymn of the Republic sung in your Church. We sing it every fourth of July:

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;

This is from the Bible. The Lord refers to Jesus:
Luke 2 29 Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; 30 Because my eyes have seen thy salvation,

He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;

Vintage means wine. Wine is the fruit of the grape.

Apocalypse 14 10 He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb.

He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;

Ezechiel 29 8 Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I will bring the sword upon thee: and cut off man and beast out of thee.


His truth is marching on.

John 14 6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.


Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

John 1 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Psalms 20 6 His glory is great in thy salvation: glory and great beauty shalt thou lay upon him.

Psalms 104

1 Alleluia. Give glory to the Lord, and call upon his name: declare his deeds among the Gentiles.

This hymn has been sung for centuries in the United States. I'm pretty sure it assumes belief in Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria
You never know what is in someone else's heart. I agree with Martin Luther, that the Book of James could have been left out of the New Testament, but James does affirm that 'by your works shall you be known', or to that affect.
When "Battle Hymn" is sung, I see Generals Grant and Sherman, and Honest Abe, prosecuting their version of ethnic cleansing in Georgia and South Carolina. Jesus is the farthest thing from my mind.

The bible has many references on how slavery is acceptable(Exodus 21:8). So slavery would be one of those Christian values that America was founded on.

Yes

WASP, ever heard the term? White Anglo-Saxon Protestant’s founded this country and were the Power behind the government until beginning of the 20th centaury.

The bible has many references on how slavery is acceptable(Exodus 21:8). So slavery would be one of those Christian values that America was founded on.

No. Slavery as it was practiced in America was essentially kidnapping and therefore a sin against the dignity of man. Slavery or more accurately, servitude as seen in the Bible was simply recognizing of the hardships of life.

Exodus 21:1 These are the judgments which thou shalt set before them. 2 If thou buy a Hebrew servant, six years shall he serve thee: in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 3 With what raiment he came in, with the like let him go out: if having a wife, his wife also shall go out with him. 4 But if his master gave him a wife, and she hath borne sons and daughters: the woman and her children shall be her master's: but he himself shall go out with his raiment. 5 And if the servant shall say: I love my master and my wife and children, I will not go out free:

6 His master shall bring him to the gods, and he shall be set to the door and the posts, and he shall bore his ear through with an awl: and he shall be his servant for ever. 7 If any man sell his daughter to be a servant, she shall not go out as bondwomen are wont to go out. 8 If she displease the eyes of her master to whom she was delivered, he shall let her go: but he shall have no power to sell her to a foreign nation, if he despise her.

The Bible recognized the hardship of those times and permitted people to sell themselves and their children into slavery to seek a better life. Note that they were expected to be freed after seven years however. And note that they were not to be sold to their enemies.

Even today, every nation practices a legal form of slavery called imprisonment in which people lose their freedom as a penalty for breaking the law.

So, to compare slavery documented in the Bible during those ancient times one must put the practice in context of those times.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Hello again:

I guess this means that you Christians ain't going to answer my questions. Instead, you'd rather lay some bible on me... Oh well, I could have figured.

excon

De Maria,

Thanks, you fell right into my trap. ;) I don't deny any of the things you cite, but I maintain these are not solely "Christian" principles, but rather judeo-christian principles. Most of these principles that you listed come from the Ten Commandments or are based in the Old Testament. So should we then say that America is a Jewish nation?

I think it very chauvinistic of Christians to think they have a monopoly on the prinicples of peace, life and liberty. My argument is not that this country wasn't founded on principles near and dear to Christians, but that many of those principles existed before Christ nor are they solely the province of Christians.

Hello again:

I guess this means that you Christians ain't gonna answer my questions. Instead, you'd rather lay some bible on me...... Oh well, I coulda figured.

excon

Ok, let me try to answer.

No I do not believe that America is a Christian nation. I do believe that many Americans like to believe that America stands for Truth, Justice and the American Way (oh wait that's Superman and he was a foreigner ;) ) I think that many Americans do have high ideals and even practice them. But the real truth is that the one abiding principle that is ingrained in the American psyche is individualism.

Right the bible has an entire section on how to treat your slaves, which means slavery is permitted and is part of the religious values of those people. If it wasn't a moral value of Christians to have slaves the book would say don't buy slaves or you will go to hell. A book written by an all powerful being wouldn't have to make allowances for how life was, it would be right from the start. So either the bible isn't the work of god or your god says it's okay to have slaves, which since you get your morals from god that means you think it's okay to have slaves. Those are your only two options. So if your going to claim that the country was founded on Christian values you have to claim the bad as well as the good.

“You were bought with a price; stop becoming slaves of men.”—1 Cor. 7:23.

In a speech to the General Conference of the Methodist Protestant Church in 1842, Alexander McCaine stated that the institution of slavery was “ordained by God Himself.” Was McCaine correct? Did God approve of the kidnapping and raping of girls, the heartless separating of families, and the cruel beatings that were part and parcel of the slave trade of McCaine's day? And what of the millions who are forced to live and work as slaves under brutal conditions today? Does God condone such inhumane treatment?

On the contrary, “God heard their groaning and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Furthermore, Jehovah told his people: “I shall certainly bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians and deliver you from their slavery.”—Exodus 1:14; 2:23, 24; 6:6-8.

Clearly, the Bible does not condone the ill-treatment of others in any form. On the contrary, it encourages respect and equality among men. (Acts 10:34, 35) It exhorts humans to treat others the way that they would like to be treated. (Luke 6:31) Moreover, the Bible encourages Christians humbly to view others as superior, regardless of their social standing. (Philippians 2:3) These principles are totally incongruous with abusive forms of slavery practiced by many nations, especially in recent centuries.

The Bible gives no indication that the enslavement of humans by other humans was part of God's original purpose for mankind. Furthermore, no Bible prophecies allude to humans owning fellow humans through slavery in God's new world. Rather, in that coming Paradise, righteous ones “will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble.”—Micah 4:4.

In a speech to the General Conference of the Methodist Protestant Church in 1842, Alexander McCaine stated that the institution of slavery was “ordained by God Himself.” Was McCaine correct?

If you believe that the bible is the word of god then yes he was correct.

To the contrary, your argument is that God allowed slavery therefore he approved…that is not different than the argument that God allows sin therefore he must approve.

The bible condems sin, it doesn't condem slavery just the extreme mistreatment of slaves and has a handy little rule book on how to treat your slaves. Sounds to me like its saying it's okay to own just don't mistreat them. Which would make slavery a religious value.

Clearly, the Bible does not condone the ill-treatment of others in any form. On the contrary, it encourages respect and equality among men. (Acts 10:34, 35) It exhorts humans to treat others the way that they would like to be treated. (Luke 6:31) Moreover, the Bible encourages Christians humbly to view others as superior, regardless of their social standing. (Philippians 2:3)

The Bible states that “man has dominated man to his injury.” (Ecclesiastes 8:9) This is perhaps nowhere more evident than in the oppressive forms of slavery that have been devised by man, not God.

Some Jews voluntarily became slaves to their fellow Jews in order to repay debts. This practice protected people from starvation and actually allowed many to recover from poverty. Furthermore, at key junctures in the Jewish calendar, slaves were to be released if they so desired. (Exodus 21:2; Leviticus 25:10; Deuteronomy 15:12) Commenting on these laws regarding slaves, Jewish scholar Moses Mielziner stated that a “slave could never cease to be a man, he was looked upon as a person possessing certain natural human rights, with which the master even could not with impunity interfere.” What a stark contrast to the abusive systems of slavery that mar the annals of history!

De Maria,

Thanks, you fell right into my trap. ;)

You must be ready to debate then? :)


I don't deny any of the things you cite, but I maintain these are not solely "Christian" principles,

Did anyone say they were solely Christian principles? No. But they are Christian principles.


but rather judeo-christian principles.

Did anyone say they were not Judeo-Christian principles? But did any Jews sign the Declaration of Independence or assist in the revolutionary war against the English?


Most of these principles that you listed come from the Ten Commandments or are based in the Old Testament. So should we then say that America is a Jewish nation?

In my opinion, this is a Christian nation because it was established by Christian people based on Christian principles. So, no, it is not a Jewish nation, although Jewish Law is embedded in Christian principles.


I think it very chauvinistic of Christians to think they have a monopoly on the prinicples of peace, life and liberty. My argument is not that this country wasn't founded on principles near and dear to Christians, but that many of those principles existed before Christ nor are they solely the province of Christians.

If that was your point, don't you think you should have made it before? Because it sounded to me as though you wanted to prove that they weren't Christian principles at all.

And...

Whether you think Christians are chauvinistic or not is besides the point.

And...

Whether these principles are shared by other groups is also besides the point. Because Christian people did not go out of their way to establish a nation upon the principles of a people foreign to them.

Caught in your own trap? ;)

Sincerely,

De Maria

Caught in your own trap? ;)



Not in the least. None of what you said comes close to challenging the point. People still refer to Christian principles not Judeo-Christian prinicples. The omission tells the story.


But did any Jews sign the Declaration of Independence or assist in the revolutionary war against the English


No, there were no Jews in the Continental Congress because your "all men are created equal" Christian founding fathers didn't think they were equal enough. But yes Jews did assist in the Revolution:
How the Jews Saved the American Revolution (http://www.jewishmag.com/80mag/usa3/usa3.htm)
Crash Course in Jewish History Part 55 - Jews and the Founding of America (http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_55_-_Jews_and_the_Founding_of_America.asp)
The American Revolution: Haym Salomon (http://www.nps.gov/revwar/about_the_revolution/haym_salomom.html)

For a matter of historical accuracy the Answer is yes ;there were American colonial Jews who fought in the Revolution. Here is a little known fact ;the 1st person in Philadelphia to sign the non-importation agreement in reaction to the Stamp Act was a man named Mathais Bush;a Jew .He was President of the Mikve Israel Congregation .

The Jewish population of the colonies was split as were the rest of the colonies over support for the war .But the Jewish population was largely supportive. In one of the first major battles ;Bunker Hill ,Aaron Solomon stood in the front ranks . Francis Salvador of South Carolina was the first Jew killed in the war. Many more Jews fought and sacrificed for American independence.

It is noteworthy to consider that a major arms supply network was established on Dutch St. Eustatius island by Jewish arms traders. A British fleet under Admiral Sir George Rodney was sent to destroy the supply base at about the same time that Lord Cornwallis began his retreat to Yorktown. Had the fleet not been otherwise occupied it is possible that Cornwallis could've been resupplied . As it turned out a weakened British fleet trying to resupply Cornwallis was defeated by French Admiral Degrasse. The battel of Yorktown was lost and Cornwallis surrendered .
So yes ,Jews did have a small but major contribution to American Independence.

Also of note ; at least 5000 African Americans fought for the colonials.

I always hear the 'America is a Christian nation' and I have been saying for a long time that
I do not believe it is because many so called Christians are in name only.
Like many people say they are Christian because their grandmother always told them they were Christian. Many are professing Christians and have no idea what being a Christian really means.

Not in the least. None of what you said comes close to challenging the point.

Not only challenging but demolishing. You insinuated that this country was not founded on Christian principles:

What Christian principles? I'm not arguing with you (yet). But I'm wondering what Christain principles are specifically in the Constitution or that it was based on.


Then you admitted that the principles are Judeo-CHRISTIAN:
Thanks, you fell right into my trap. I don't deny any of the things you cite, but I maintain these are not solely "Christian" principles, but rather judeo-christian principles.

I nor anyone here ever claimed they were "solely" Christian principles. Most Christians that I know understand that Christianity came from Judaism and that, in fact, salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22).


People still refer to Christian principles not Judeo-Christian prinicples. The omission tells the story.

Correct. And what is that story? That Christians founded this nation on principles which they believed. The principles taught by Jesus Christ.


No, there were no Jews in the Continental Congress because your "all men are created equal" Christian founding fathers didn't think they were equal enough.

Did I claim the founding Fathers had no flaws? Do you claim that you have no flaws? If the answer to these questions is, no, then what is the point?

The only thing I can gather is that you have admitted in that statement that the founding Fathers were Christian.


But yes Jews did assist in the Revolution:
How the Jews Saved the American Revolution (http://www.jewishmag.com/80mag/usa3/usa3.htm)
Crash Course in Jewish History Part 55 - Jews and the Founding of America (http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_55_-_Jews_and_the_Founding_of_America.asp)
The American Revolution: Haym Salomon (http://www.nps.gov/revwar/about_the_revolution/haym_salomom.html)

Wonderful! But that has little to do with the fact that this country is founded on Christian principles by Christian Founding Fathers. Two facts you have already admitted.

Sincerely,

De Maria

for a matter of historical accuracy the Answer is yes ;there were American colonial Jews who fought in the Revolution. Here is a little known fact ;the 1st person in Philadelphia to sign the non-importation agreement in reaction to the Stamp Act was a man named Mathais Bush;a Jew .He was President of the Mikve Israel Congregation .

The Jewish population of the colonies was split as were the rest of the colonies over support for the war .But the Jewish population was largely supportive. In one of the first major battles ;Bunker Hill ,Aaron Solomon stood in the front ranks . Francis Salvador of South Carolina was the first Jew killed in the war. Many more Jews fought and sacrificed for American independence.

It is noteworthy to consider that a major arms supply network was established on Dutch St. Eustatius island by Jewish arms traders. A British fleet under Admiral Sir George Rodney was sent to destroy the supply base at about the same time that Lord Cornwallis began his retreat to Yorktown. Had the fleet not been otherwise occupied it is possible that Cornwallis could've been resupplied . As it turned out a weakened British fleet trying to resupply Cornwallis was defeated by French Admiral Degrasse. The battel of Yorktown was lost and Cornwallis surrendered .
So yes ,Jews did have a small but major contribution to American Independence.

Also of note ; at least 5000 African Americans fought for the colonials.

Good to know. Thanks for the info.

All this is very interesting, but let's just sum it up because excon sees lurking Christians behind every cherry tree: "American by birth, Southern by the grace of God."

All this is very interesting, but let's just sum it up because excon sees lurking Christians behind every cherry tree: "American by birth, Southern by the grace of God."Another example of american divisiveness.


______________________________

Proud to be Canadian

Thanks, NK: you folks used to be our 51st state, but I guess you are about 52nd now. I've read all this stuff about slavery and De Maria seems to be winning because there is no prohibition of slavery in the Bible that I am aware of. I mean, argue the Golden Rule if you can't think of anything else. But all is not lost: we can research the Abolitionist movement and find plenty of ammunition, and some will come from Scripture; it's just that I'm not that conversant with it. After all is said and done, excon can rest easy because it appears that John Locke and the Enlightenment are the progenitors of the U.S. and not the Bible.

You haven't demolished anything, not even close. You just dance around the point I'm trying to make without addressing it.

If I say a building is built of steel, that doesn't tell the while story, because the building probably also is built of concrete and other materials. So to say the US was founded on Christian principles doesn't tell the whole story either. But if you insist that the US is a Christian nation, denigrates all the other elements that went into its formation.

I hear people argue that the founding fathers were Christian and others say they were deists.
I have read some of the diaries that Christians use to say that George Washington, Ben Franklin and many of the others were Christian.
Quotes of the Founders : Founding Fathers quotes on religion, faith, Christianity (http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm)

Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians (http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html)

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America (http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html)

Saph

The founders ;or most of them were active members of Christian denominations ;many were deists and stillactive members of their church .That is about the most irrelevant point in this debate. Thefact is that none of them had a notion that they were founding a "Christian nation" . Honestly ,I think the biggest concern of the colonist were changes in the rules of commerce initiated by the Brits in an attempt to pay for their very expensive war against the French;that had directly benifited the colonists . Had King George not been such an the issues were resolvable. Many of his reactions were punitive and that helped tip the balance of the hearts and minds of the populace in favor of revolution (barely : the populace was pretty much divided between "patriots" ,"tories" and fence sitters)

Scott and George are right ; the influence of the Enlightenment on the founders was the philosophy behind the Revolution.

For those who are visually inclined: YouTube - Christian nation myth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWy602JbSUU)

Hello again:

Thanks George. But, you're preachin to the choir. We're not a Christian nation. I wasn't interested in a discussion about whether we ARE or not. That's been established.

I'm more interested in what people like Da Maria think ABOUT their belief. I don't care about the belief itself. I'm NOT interested in WHY Da Maria believes it. I couldn't care less.

My questions are of a social nature rather than a religious nature. But, I've said this before, and nobody seems to get it. They'd rather lay some bible on me...

So, I wonder if you people can't figure out what I'm asking, how can you figure out what Rev. Wright is asking?

excon

So, I wonder if you people can't figure out what I'm asking, how can you figure out what Rev. Wright is asking?

excon

excon: Did Rev. Wright ask something? What I heard was a series of declarations.

Did Rev. Wright ask something? What I heard was a series declarations.Hello again, George:

Playing semantics?? That's what DC does. But, it's cool. This whole thread has been a semantic dance.

His declarations raise questions.

You musta seen my Jesus thing already. If not, I'm going to repeat it here...

"I ain't no Christian, so what do I know about it? However, Jesus was rabblerousing Jew, and I know something about that.

He wasn't politically correct. He upset the status quo. He disrupted the comfortable. He got angry. He threw the moneychangers out of the temple. You seemed to like it when Jesus did it. Is that cause he was white? Or because YOU were the one being oppressed??? Frankly, Jesus raised holy hell. Why can't Wright?"

excon

Hello again, George:

Playing semantics??? That's what DC does. But, it's cool. This whole thread has been a semantic dance.

His declarations raise questions.

You musta seen my Jesus thing already. If not, I'm gonna repeat it here.....

"I ain't no Christian, so what do I know about it? However, Jesus was rabblerousing Jew, and I know something about that.

He wasn't politically correct. He upset the status quo. He disrupted the comfortable. He got angry. He threw the moneychangers out of the temple. You seemed to like it when Jesus did it. Is that cause he was white? Or because YOU were the one being oppressed??? Frankly, Jesus raised holy hell. Why can't Wright?"

excon
Thanks excon for helping me with that. Rev. Wright is/was in church, in the U.S. after all. He can raise all the holy hell he wants to, no one saying he can't. Are you confusing 'speaking freely' with the 'consequences of speaking freely'? By the way, why'd they send him to Africa? That's where I heard he was recently.

Excon

You’re simply mixing categories, a nation cannot be baptized; therefore it cannot be Christian nor can it have any other human qualities.

hmm, another misconception. There is only one way to the father.. That also brings into the conversation we assume we actually know what's on the hearts of the people. I can attest many "Christians" talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Even "if" (which we have already learn it didn't) the Country was founded under Christian view/values/ect... We could never truly answer a question that is so subjective.

I don't think that there is any clear answer to this question-IS AMERICA A CHRISTIAN NATION-
Most people use their religious believes to their own ends ( note I said most and not all)
America has to be classed as a christian nation because the person who runs it is indead a self confessed christian- isn't he!.
On the other hand the UK is a christian country there are numorous different faiths now in a muti cultural society and they are quite freely accepted in fact in some areas overpowering but still the uk is classed as a christian country
This argument could go on I think at the end of the day majority wins in that I mean christianity which means yes America has to be a christian nation

i don't think that there is any clear answer to this question-IS AMERICA A CHRISTIAN NATION-
Most people use their religeous believes to their own ends ( note i said most and not all)
America has to be classed as a christian nation because the person who runs it is indead a self confessed christian- isn't he!.....
On the other hand the UK is a christian country there are numorous differant faiths now in a muti cultural society and they are quite freely accepted infact in some areas overpowering but still the uk is classed as a christian country
This argument could go on i think at the end of the day majority wins in that i mean christianity which means yes America has to be a christian nation

Let me preface this statement with I am a Christian who believes Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. Taking upon himself the curse that man suffered under the law. I profess that from these words you are reading here in this post.. Like many other in the Country who profess their "faith". A large majority of the United States Claims to be Christians including our "fearless leader". That by no means makes the United States a Christian country. Actions would speak louder then words. We do not live in a Christian society. We live in a "Whats in it for me?", "instant gratification" society imposed on us by the majority. So if the Majority rules like you say, then the only conclusion is No, America, The United States, is not a Christian country.

Hi smoked, I totally agree with your last post, perhaps I should have said America likes to think of itself as a christian country!. there are those purely out for personal gain as you quite rightly state but surely if we are being honest is it not like that around the world, I know many church go 'ers who come out in their Sunday best professing their devotion to the church when in fact I know them to be complete rogues during the week. Talk about keeping up apperences they look like one thing but are completely different if you dig deeper. Hence the saying " what you see is not always what you get"

I think it's all about impression, whether it's impression to your colleges or to the eyes of the world press the principle remains the same

I personally believe in the good guy upstairs and am not out for any personal gain from anyone, there are many true believers out there who practice there religion privately giving what they can to help charities and alike and I'm one of them, we can only do our best which is all the man upstairs asks of us .Many things now all about money including some churches which is very sad, but as the Lord said your church is where you are no matter where that might be , it does't have to be some posh place where every one is dress up.
I am going off the track abit here so to some up, I'll say America and countries alike use the front of " we our a christion country" purely for cosmetic purposes.

Bye for now

Hello again:

So, aren't any of you interested in what my question was?? Or are you soooooo damn interested in laying bible on me that you don't even bother to read??

excon

Hello again:

So, aren't any of you interested in what my question was?????? Or are you soooooo damn interested in laying bible on me that you don't even bother to read?????

excon

Do you think that the belief that America is a Christian nation is a belief that divides us
Clearly stated that their can be no belief in something that is not true. Making the question irrelevant.

or brings us together? Nothing as controversial as religion will ever be universally excepted.


Is that clearer for you? No one dropped the bible on your head, just used a couple simple facts to support some statements. Sorry if you didn't bother to read. So.. I thought I would make it very simple.

Hello again:

So, aren't any of you interested in what my question was?????? Or are you soooooo damn interested in laying bible on me that you don't even bother to read?????

excon


By the way.. its called a conversation. Don't provoke it if you don't want it to happen.

You haven't demolished anything, not even close. You just dance around the point I'm trying to make without addressing it.

No actually. You're argument is demolished. You are just so intent on winning you haven't noticed.


If I say a building is built of steel, that doesn't tell the while story, because the building probably also is built of concrete and other materials.

Your metaphor is unsound. I never said this nation was built of Christianity. I said it was built on Christian principles.

So, that is like saying the nation was built on a stone foundation. We know that other materials come into play. But the foundation remains stone.

Or another metaphor would be to say the nation was built on a steel frame. Again, other materials may be used to complete the building. But the steel frame sustains the basic structure.

And so it is with my saying the nation was founded by Christian men on their Christian principles.


So to say the US was founded on Christian principles doesn't tell the whole story either.

But this thread is not about telling the entire story. It is only about whether this nation can rightfully be called a Christian nation. In my opinion, based on the FACTS, that this nation's founders were Christian and that they founded this country on Christian principles, I say, "Yes."


But if you insist that the US is a Christian nation, denigrates all the other elements that went into its formation.

False. If we go back to your metaphor of a building. The foundation is the most important element of the building. But the walls are NOT denigrated because they are made of wood and I say, "the foundation is of the best cement."

Sincerely,

De Maria

Good work on attacking my building analogy. But you still don't deal with my main point. And as long as you dance around that you haven't done anything about my main point.

Saph

The founders ;or most of them were active members of Christian denominations ;many were deists and stillactive members of their church .That is about the most irrelevant point in this debate. Thefact is that none of them had a notion that they were founding a "Christian nation" .

Not really. That is the most cogent of points. When my Mexican grandmother makes us a meal, she doesn't intend to make Mexican food. She just intends to feed us.

When our Christian forefathers set out to build a nation, they simply intended to make a government which protected the Christian values in which they believed.


Honestly ,I think the biggest concern of the colonist were changes in the rules of commerce initiated by the Brits in an attempt to pay for their very expensive war against the French;that had directly benifited the colonists . Had King George not been such an the issues were resolvable. Many of his reactions were punitive and that helped tip the balance of the hearts and minds of the populace in favor of revolution (barely : the populace was pretty much divided between "patriots" ,"tories" and fence sitters)

Scott and George are right ; the influence of the Enlightenment on the founders was the philosophy behind the Revolution.

Whether the founders were influenced by the Enlightenment is a moot question. They were Christians who based the founding principles on which this nation was built on recognizable Christian precepts.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Hello again:

So, aren't any of you interested in what my question was?????? Or are you soooooo damn interested in laying bible on me that you don't even bother to read?????

excon

Poor excon... :(

Surely you aren't surprised though...

I'd answer your question, but I'm a dirty heathen with no church, so I don't think it applies to me! If you welcome the opinion of dirty heathens, just say so, but I'm sure you have a good idea what I'd say... :D

Poor excon.... :(

Surely you aren't surprised though....

I'd answer your question, but I'm a dirty heathen with no church, so I don't think it applies to me! If you welcome the opinion of dirty heathens, just say so, but I'm sure you have a good idea what I'd say... :D


And I tried to answer and even told you I love you... :D

No actually. You're argument is demolished. You are just so intent on winning you haven't noticed.



Your metaphor is unsound. I never said this nation was built of Christianity. I said it was built on Christian principles.

So, that is like saying the nation was built on a stone foundation. We know that other materials come into play. But the foundation remains stone.

Or another metaphor would be to say the nation was built on a steel frame. Again, other materials may be used to complete the building. But the steel frame sustains the basic structure.

And so it is with my saying the nation was founded by Christian men on their Christian principles.



But this thread is not about telling the entire story. It is only about whether or not this nation can rightfully be called a Christian nation. In my opinion, based on the FACTS, that this nation's founders were Christian and that they founded this country on Christian principles, I say, "Yes."



False. If we go back to your metaphor of a building. The foundation is the most important element of the building. But the walls are NOT denigrated because they are made of wood and I say, "the foundation is of the best cement."

Sincerely,

De Maria

Hi De Maria,

As much as I would like to agree with you I can't. A nation found under christian morals and values it may have been. I can see an argument for that. The problem is being founded as such doesn't make it such "Today". Today our nation uses the guise of christianity but in reality is nothing close.

First, a large sum of our population (like 70%+) claim to be christian. When asked to define that belief most answer "I believe in god". Great! So do almost ever other religion out there. Does that make them christian. Not even close.

Second, as a true melting pot our government is influenced by all kinds of "religions". A great example is the removing of most christian based sayings, songs and words in our public school system for the sake of being Politically Correct. Another great example in Texas a group had the city of dallas remove a placard that mentioned "in god we trust". I could go on and on.

So my question is, how can we be a christian nation but rebel at ever chance? Forget what the country was founded under. It doesn't mean a thing if we don't adhere to those principals today.

America was founded by protestant Christians so naturally the majority of Americans are Christians (76-80%) to me that mean it is in theory a Christian Nation although there is separation of Church and State.

If it's a christian nation does that mean it's a theocracy, like Saudi Arabia?

If it's a christian nation does that mean it's a theocracy, like Saudi Arabia?

Valid point.. Last I checked ol'Bush didn't defer his authority to god. BOMBS Away!

I am slow sometimes on something's, first to admit, but that only opens me up to learn more.

I love my country, but I do not think we are a Christian Nation.

Am I wrong?

To me there is a difference between a country which is made up of mostly Christians, and a country which governs itself with Christian morals. I do not think American does this. Sure we base many of our laws off common Christian principles (don't murder), but we have no national religion, and we have many laws which go against Christianity as well (abortion). To me, if America were a "Christian nation", it would be a theocracy.

Certainly there are some people out there who wish we were a theocracy, and there are probably even some out there who think we are - but we aren't. We are a democracy which promotes religious freedom - the way it should be. Our leaders and population being mostly one religion means nothing, really.

I've heard people call this a Christian nation because a majority of our population is Christian, but I ask, what does that mean? Most of our population is also white - are we a white nation? There are more men in America than women - are we a male nation? If there are more brunettes than blondes, are we a brunette nation? A nation of the middle-aged? Should we start referring to ourselves as "America - the white, male, brunette, middle-aged Christian nation!"? Majority means little when describing your country; it's arbitrary and unimportant. Plus, it evokes an "us-versus-them" mentality, which I think (hope) we can all agree, leads to nothing but trouble.

We're Americans. We promote freedom, especially of religion. We don't need a national religion because that would hinder such freedom. If we are ever declared a Christian nation, I'm moving - the sh!t is about to hit the fan!

To me there is a difference between a country which is made up of mostly Christians, and a country which governs itself with Christian morals. I do not think American does this. Sure we base many of our laws off of common Christian principles (don't murder), but we have no national religion, and we have many laws which go against Christianity as well (abortion). To me, if America were a "Christian nation", it would be a theocracy.

Certainly there are some people out there who wish we were a theocracy, and there are probably even some out there who think we are - but we aren't. We are a democracy which promotes religious freedom - the way it should be. Our leaders and population being mostly one religion means nothing, really.

I've heard people call this a Christian nation because a majority of our population is Christian, but I ask, what does that mean? Most of our population is also white - are we a white nation? There are more men in America than women - are we a male nation? If there are more brunettes than blondes, are we a brunette nation? A nation of the middle-aged? Should we start referring to ourselves as "America - the white, male, brunette, middle-aged Christian nation!"? Majority means little when describing your country; it's arbitrary and unimportant. Plus, it evokes an "us-versus-them" mentality, which I think (hope) we can all agree, leads to nothing but trouble.

We're Americans. We promote freedom, especially of religion. We don't need a national religion because that would hinder such freedom. If we are ever declared a Christian nation, I'm moving - the sh!t is about to hit the fan!

As a christian, I agree whole heartily... I have been saying it from day one we are not a christian nation just because a large portion of the population "thinks" they are christian.

I don't believe America is a Christian Nation. But I believe 100% that there's a Christian in America

To me there is a difference between a country which is made up of mostly Christians, and a country which governs itself with Christian morals. I do not think American does this. Sure we base many of our laws off of common Christian principles (don't murder), but we have no national religion, and we have many laws which go against Christianity as well (abortion). To me, if America were a "Christian nation", it would be a theocracy.

Certainly there are some people out there who wish we were a theocracy, and there are probably even some out there who think we are - but we aren't. We are a democracy which promotes religious freedom - the way it should be. Our leaders and population being mostly one religion means nothing, really.

I've heard people call this a Christian nation because a majority of our population is Christian, but I ask, what does that mean? Most of our population is also white - are we a white nation? There are more men in America than women - are we a male nation? If there are more brunettes than blondes, are we a brunette nation? A nation of the middle-aged? Should we start referring to ourselves as "America - the white, male, brunette, middle-aged Christian nation!"? Majority means little when describing your country; it's arbitrary and unimportant. Plus, it evokes an "us-versus-them" mentality, which I think (hope) we can all agree, leads to nothing but trouble.

We're Americans. We promote freedom, especially of religion. We don't need a national religion because that would hinder such freedom. If we are ever declared a Christian nation, I'm moving - the sh!t is about to hit the fan!



Absolutely agree. Freedom to have a religion or not. ;)

I think the idea that America is (or was) a Christian nation
1. Has never been true, so is a huge urban legend, and
2. Does more to divide than bring us together.

Our nation was founded with the presumption that there is a God but that's about as far as it goes.

Sort of related but sort of not: Even the founding fathers were unclear about their faith and even hypocritical in that they affirmed equality and "inalienable rights" yet many had slaves.


Exactly Rick.. exactly. Does far more to divide. And we, America, are truly a melting pot, not just of nationality, but also of religion.

But where did the saying "One Nation under God" come from? To me that doesn't make us a Christian nation. At all. But I do wonder where that comes from.

It would only be a title, one like Rick said, only causes division. We surely do not act as Christians, as a whole. Myself, included in that. Our priorites sometimes are way out wack. Look how we idiolize Hollywood and such. Our actions are not symbolic, largely, of anything Christ like. Sad to say.

But where did the saying "One Nation under God" come from? To me that doesn't make us a Christian nation. At all. But I do wonder where that comes from.Hello again, All:

Prior to the 50's, the pledge read, "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. That's how I learned it.

There was no mention of God then, and there SHOULD'T be now. It was inserted by some Christian's while the country was suffering from McCarthyism. People were afraid to object because McCarthy would have branded them communists.

Besides, at that time, we were fairly relaxed about it anyway. I remember starring as Jesus in the school Christmas play. He was Jew, after all. We can't do those things today, and we should remove the offensive “under god” too.

Personally, I think it reads so much better the old way. In fact, inserting the words "under god" DIVIDES us, making a mockery of the next word "indivisable".

excon

Thanks excon for the explanation.

I like the Under God part, (sorry :( ), but I never dreamed or selfishly thought, it would offend others.

Thanks again, I really didn't know all that. I am sure they taught it in school, but I tuned out a lot :) Not on purpose.

But as someone that believes in God very much, I do like it, but it's offensive, because, of those who do not believe in God?

I do like it, but it's offensive, because, of those who do not believe in God?Hello again, All:

Sure it's offensive. We only have ONE pledge of allegiance. It should be one that EVERYBODY can say without winking...

It used to be a beautiful sentiment that one could say to show their allegiance to their country. Not to God - that should be done in church.

excon

The original U.S. motto, chosen by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is E Pluribus Unum ("Of Many, One"), celebrating plurality, not theocracy.

Hello again, All:

Sure it's offensive. We only have ONE pledge of allegiance. It should be one that EVERYBODY can say without winking....

It used to be a beautiful sentiment that one could say to show their allegiance to their country. Not to God - that should be done in church.

excon


Very good point Ex, I'm sorry. Honest. You are right. All Americans should be comfortable with pledging allegiance to their country without saying something they normally wouldn't.

It's a struggle for those that believe, I think, to remove it, because then, at least for me, it would be "giving in" and making others comfortable about not believing in God.

I just lend this insight, knowing it may be wrong, to help you understand why some would have a hard time removing it, because they believe so much in God. We would feel like we are hiding God, from others. I know, that may be wrong, but again, just sharing the struggles.

But as you said, we can do that in Church and in our homes.

Love you much.

Apparently atheists aren't allowed to hold office or be a witness in a trail by state law in 7 different states. So it may not be a christian nation but they sure end up making the laws.

The Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution never make a mention of Christian, Christ or any other than a generic god in reference to "inalienable rights." In fact the "In God We Trust" as seen on currency or "....Nation under God" in the Pledge did not exist until Eisenhower signed both into law in 1953. Christian? No Way! I will go with the laws established on Judeo-Christian principles and values as thaose religions were mostdominant. But Founding Fathers took great care to avoid establishing a national religion as was common in European Nations.

For those that say the US is a Christian Nation, under just which of the many hundreds of denominations, sects and other divisions would that be? Roman Catholic would be largest. But Beware. Your flavor of Christianity may be excluded if you wish Christian domination.

This whole idea of a pledge is really quite amusing. Why does one need to recite some words to be proud of their country? Where I'm from we don't have one. Does that make us all unpatriotic? Maybe they should just consider scrapping the pledge all together then no one would be offended.

This whole idea of a pledge is really quite amusing. Why does one need to recite some words to be proud of their country? Where im from we dont have one. Does that make us all unpatriotic? Maybe they should just consider scrapping the pledge all together then no one would be offended.


Hi my Aussie friend,

Oh Skell, no I would never wanted it scraped. Ever. The feeling that you get placing your hand to your heart and reciting the pledge, I can't even describe. What goes through my mind when doing it, is all of those who have given their lives, so our country can remain free. I also think of my fellow Americans as well. It's a tribute. So hard to describe.

It sounds like something cults do to retain their followers.

It sounds like something cults do to retain their followers.


LOL NK for goodness sake... Do you have a hat over there with all these sayings LOL just kiddn.

No, it's not, hopefully someone else can come in behind me and say it way better then I could. I just can't seem to describe it. I'm sorry.

For me, it's just symbolic for love of our country.

I just had a thought... uh oh. It's similar to the National Anthem, but it is spoken, instead of sung. On that line.

Just like the beautiful "Oh Canada". I used to be a huge hockey fan and would get chills hearing them sing your anthem as well.

It was established by Christians. It was established as a government without religious preference. It certainly was NOT established as an Atheist nation.

It was established by Christians. It was established as a government without religious preference. It certainly was NOT established as an Atheist nation.

Or as someone said:
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. Do not ever let anyone claim to be a true American patriot if they ever attempt to separate Religion from politics." George Washington

Or as someone said:
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. Do not ever let anyone claim to be a true American patriot if they ever attempt to separate Religion from politics." George Washington

By George, I think George is wrong! Seriously wrong.

By George, I think George is wrong! Seriously wrong.
Shall we let history decide?

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. Do not ever let anyone claim to be a true American patriot if they ever attempt to separate Religion from politics." George WashingtonWhat a crock of crap!! I'm with Exccon. Ya want to belief? Here's one for you.
I believe, Religion began when the first priest met the first fool Now there'sa belief for you.

Apparently you are correct Speedball. That quote is only found in one place by author David Barton who writes books for the religious right about how we are suppose to be a nation ruled by Christianity. He has no source for that quote other than his own writings.

Bsouthe - is all that from Obama's secret playbook or from Karl Marx?

Bsouthe - is all that from Obama's secret playbook or from Karl Marx?Such a pathetic attempt at mudslinging. And this is an example of christianity today. <sigh>

Such a pathetic attempt at mudslinging.
NK, I don't think the "mudslinging's" pathetic at all. You just stumbled into a gaggle of free thinkers. We sling mud simply because Christianity gives us so many dandy openings to do so. And besides it's fun to tweek the noses of the Bible thumpers. You Christians have so many silly tenets in your religion that we just can't resist. I could rag on the Catholics all day but, hands down, the most fun people in the Christian Religion to "mess with their minds" are, without a doubt, the Christian Fundamentalists. They only see black and white, no shades of gray in their world. In short, you Christians are FUN people to play with. I know, for thirteen years after I retired I was into Women's Rights. I was head of security and chief escort for a abortion clinic. I escorted frightened girls past screaming protesters. You Christians really made those thirteen years interesting. I was attacked three times, shot at twice, went through five bomb scares and opened a letter that had white powder in it the writer claimed was Anthrax. It took three days before Hazmat told me I wasn't going to die. So much for "Christian Love". Yeah! I know you Christians real good. What do you think turned me into a stone atheist.

So.. the most rabid anti-Christian zealots are ex-Christians. Is that because you know Christians are called to be loving and forgiving? And that is why they make such easy targets?




Speedball did you ever once think that you escorted 2 lives in and onlly one came out?




Like Bsouth, they can spew their insults - take a look at the posts, but a when a Christian quotes the words of Obama and makes the comparison with Marx, it is called "mudslinging?" Call it what you want, this may not be a Christian nation, and despite political correctness, contrary views are still allowed in the US.



If Obama does not know that He associates with terrorists [ayers ], racists[Wright], and corruption [Rezko], what exact "Change" is He trying to bring?

Does Obama not think that the American voters will see Him as either knaive or just another politician using people to gain influence?

Is that because you know Christians are called to be loving and forgiving?That's the part we don't see much here. In my real life I have friends that span the religious and racial gamut, but here some of the christians are just plain nasty to others.

Okay NK - how about this, go to a al queda or hamas web site and spew your invectives at them and hope that only your feelings get hurt. ;)

What's the analogy? This isn't a christian website.
So when your feelings are hurt by people having different opinions you lash out at them?

NK you have only the bravery to insult Christians because you know that despite your anti-Christian rhetoric the harshest response is going to be just words.

If you were truly God hating atheist go to the above mentioned related websites and convince them that their God is like your FSM.

It takes no courage to insult Christians - it is politically correct in a lot of circles, because as a whole Christians see it just as that - insults from someone who believes differently.

Show me where I insulted christians.
And I'm not God hating, where did you get that idea?

By claiming there is no god we insult all religions equally. Really the only problem that I have with religion in general is when it holds back progress. So if a muslim joins you in saying that a certain theory that shall not be named for risk of flame war is wrong. I will tell them that they are wrong as well and if this was a Christian web site instead of a general help site I wouldn't be here either.

The reason why Christian get it the most is because you're the vocal majority and a few crazy people on your side is enough to make your religious ideas in to law. So we have to fight you or we would be you.

By claiming there is no god we insult all religions equally. Really the only problem that I have with religion in general is when it holds back progress.

No you don't insult any religion. I don't think theists really care what athiests believe let alone take offense. I think atheist are the ones who take offense to other people's beliefs on the existence of God. Evident by the amount of athiests that spend hours on religious forums attempting to promote their beliefs by harassing thiests with condescending remarks. It funny how atheist claim not believe in or care about religion and yet most of the people on religions forums are athiests, day in, day out.. lol I find it ironic that's all.

There is nothing more intelligent or scientific about being an atheist vs being a theist because at the end of the day both possitions are based on faith. In my opinion atheism is actually quite the contrary. So don't try and equate atheism with progress because the two are independent of one other.

Sassy has seen right through us - yes atheism is indeed our religion. This now validates us to post in any and all religious forums. Since we don't congregate in houses of worship, atheism/agnosticism is mainly a personal choice, we are asking to be tax exempt per individual. I love my religion!

Well said Karma!

Speedball did you ever once think that you escorted 2 lives in and onlly one came out?
Box, No! I protected women's rights from those who would seek to control her decisions and make them for her. And in some cases I protected them physically from screaming protesters who attempted to prevent her from entering the clinic by force. I'm proud of being on the front lines for women's rights and now you can tell me what you did to further your cause.

If it were really true that most religious people didn't care what I did that would be great. That however is not the case I have at least once per month someone at my door trying to get me to worship their god. In several states I can not hold public office because of my beliefs. In schools religious groups are trying to make my children learn their beliefs. I can't even spend a dollar without being reminded that my belief takes a back seat to yours. Atheists that have made their beliefs public, receive death threats and are denied employement. The current president was raised to belief that Atheist should not be allowed to be patriots or citizens. So is it any wonder that we voice our opinion on the internet where the death threats and bigotry can not reach us in our personal lives.

Sassy has seen right through us - yes atheism is indeed our religion. This now validates us to post in any and all religious forums. Since we don't congregate in houses of worship, atheism/agnosticism is mainly a personal choice, we are asking to be tax exempt per individual. I love my religion!


I am sure if someone thought they could get all the athiests to donate 10 percent they would start putting up the buildings

Well said Karma!!

Box, No! I protected womens rights from those who would seek to control her decisions and make them for her. And in some cases I protected them physically from screaming protesters who attempted to prevent her from entering the clinic by force. I'm proud of being on the front lines for womens rights and now you can tell me what you did to further your cause.]

Well you may have helped the abortion industry in their use of their brain washing to help escort ( or perhaps drag the poor baby who had no choice) past people who were merely trying to give them both sides of the information.

I have been there and saved the lives of dozens of babies by letting their mothers have a real choice by knowing all the facts.

And proud that I have helped close several of these death chambers.

Wik says about 80% of US population says they are Christian. That would imply that the US is a Christian nation, if all those people practiced rigid Chritian principles.
But the government has to operate independently of religion (at least I think we are supposed to) so since the actions of the government primarily define the US, we may not appear to be a Christian nation by our actions ( I don't mean that as a criticism of US, just a fact of managing a capitalistic country).
I think we are as close to being a Christian nation as the constitution allows but I can't say how well our people adhere to Christian principles (including myself). The Bible says something to the effect that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven--I don't think most Christian Americans are ready to do that but rather the opposite, we're capitalists and we're staying capitalists.

Well said Karma!!

Box, No! I protected womens rights from those who would seek to control her decisions and make them for her. And in some cases I protected them physically from screaming protesters who attempted to prevent her from entering the clinic by force. I'm proud of being on the front lines for womens rights and now you can tell me what you did to further your cause.



"Women's right - to abortion" - which is ending a life.

What have I done - contribute to local Pregnancy hope center. Have advised pregnant women that abortion is not the only option.

Adopted children. Wife is pushing to take care of foster children but we'll have to do our due diligence first.

Lost track of theme of post ( original posters post)

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