I'm an atheist and have been since I was very young. I always had a great argument due to being brought up in a religious home, but never had the answer as to how religion came into play. My friend brought this video over to my house and it seemed a little boring at first, then about ten minutes into it, I realized this may very well be the answer to my question! I've researched arguments against the facts here and have found none that out weigh the obvious. The thing is, I'm shocked at how it was in my face and every ones face all this time. Please watch this segment and tell me what you think and if you can see another truth. Best regards, Greg Q

Zeitgeist - The Movie, 2007 (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/)

I have never believed in god or jesus it is just some story made up years ago like cinderella

Just watched a little bit its quite good will watch the rest later its true the beginning why does he need money? God I mean

First off let me say that although I am a firm believer in God, I do not knock the fact that you are a non-believer. I actually went through that phase when I was younger and then I realized that there is a God or some other type of higher being. God has worked in my life so many times and in so many different ways, that I know that it was not a mere coincidence or happenstance. I haven't viewed the movie link yet, but I will. I will state that although I know that God is real, I also don't believe everything that was written in the Bible. I realize that things change in translation as well as through people like the ever popular telephone game. That doesn't mean that there isn't a God to me, it just means that the Holy Book is tainted with the translations of other people. It all depends on a person's vantage point when they tell a story and that is how I view the Bible, but I KNOW that there is a GOD.

I do believe there is more out there than us and I would never knock anyone else's beliefs each to there own.

Would you care to share with us here why you are an atheist, Greg. I am just curious. By the way, my first name is Craig. So, I do think that we have something in common there!

I am normally shocked that people can't believe in God, the facts are too obvioius in their face he exists. I respect everyone right to not believe but do feel very sorry for their loss in their life. Even non Christian writings like the Quran even accept Jesus as being a real person,

...do feel very sorry for thier loss in thier life. There is no loss in our lives. You may feel a loss if you didn't have a god to worship and rely on but that does not mean that others are like that at all. We don't go around saying that we feel bad for your wasted time worshipping something that doesn't exist. Don't worry about us, worry about yourself. :)

Would you care to share with us here why you are an atheist, Greg. I am just curious. By the way, my first name is Craig. So, I do think that we have something in common there!
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Hey Craig. There are endless reasons, I have gone through flaws in the bible and other routine arguments a thousand times with family and it always comes down to debating against faith. I believe faith is believing in something as fact when it simply is not. After watching the first segment of Zeitgeist, I believe the missing pieces to the puzzle are finally visible.
I was pushed from a very young age to believe in something as questionable as Religion is. I chose look beyond faith, that was difficult to do when there was no Internet. Religion is passed down from generation to generation with very little question from its followers. What a system to have, in fact it is very much like a virus. Its rules are to get them almost at birth, and then get their children at birth and so on. The fact is, I usually don't come on here going off on a subject as sensitive as religion. It usually leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths in the end and no one gets converted either way... But after watching this compelling movie, I wanted to share it with fellow atheists agnostics and also share it with people who are of faith. I'm not sure, but I have never been made aware of this view of where religion came from. And I must say it is not the most wonderful feeling learning that I have a whole new fantastic argument to support my beliefs. I would love there to be a god, a saviour but the evidence simply does not exist. The majority of the world believe there will be a day when Christ will come back and save us from ourselves I believe Christians call it "the second coming," in the mean time lets burn burn burn. I'm afraid my daughter one day will have a 02 mask on her face looking up at the sky waiting for a holy ghost.

Zeitgeist part 1 is the clearest, logical and easy to understand explanation to how something like an object (the sun) could be celebrated 3000 years BC and how translations have gone to where they are now. A ten year old boy could follow this 20 minute evidence full documentary, I'm still researching this to prove that it it may be false. So far my catholic school teacher girlfriend and I are convinced it is authentic.

You'll also like this movie: "The Power of Nightmares: The Rise of the Politics of Fear" (2004) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0430484/)

Might I say that, umm, people have become brainwashed?

just watched a little bit its quite good will watch the rest later its true the beginning why does he need money? god i mean

Why in the world would G-d need money, better yet how dose he get it?? The church has his mailing address and they send it to him so he can fund "Go to H-e-l-l projects" or "Wings for Angels projects"
Really G-d dosen't personally use the money, how would he? The church does. So they can pay their preachers and preists and then give it to the poor. The point is to give money to people who need it so they can buy food, have homes, etc.

I watched the movie, and it has just as many flaws as does the Bible. I think you need to take in to account that it was written well over a thousand years ago, it has changed since it's been translated over and over again... books have even been left out. Just because all of it might not be true, I'm certain that there is some amount of truth. For even in lies there is truth.

Another thing. Some religons don't believe in Hell. They think that if G-d really loves you then he wouldn't sentence you to eternal pain and misery. (this was in part of the intro)

Believe whatever you want, I'm not here to stop you. But if your going to allow yourself to be brainwashed by a movie meant to encourage atheism then be warned. Try to make your own assumptions about weather there is a G-d or not, it's easier to truly believe something if you are the one who makes the asumptions about it... though I think you already have.

Hi. I'm a good Southern Catholic girl ;) - a contradiction in terms it seems. I think that whatever your beliefs may be, especially unpopular beliefs, it takes balls to share them.

Why in the world would G-d need money, better yet how dose he get it??? The church has his mailing address and they send it to him so he can fund "Go to H-e-l-l projects" or "Wings for Angels projects"
Really G-d dosen't personally use the money, how would he? The church does. So they can pay their preachers and preists and then give it to the poor. The point is to give money to people who need it so they can buy food, have homes, ect.

I watched the movie, and it has just as many flaws as does the Bible. I think you need to take in to account that it was written well over a thousand years ago, it has changed since it's been translated over and over again...books have even been left out. Just because all of it might not be true, I'm certain that there is some amount of truth. For even in lies there is truth.

Another thing. Some religons don't beleive in Hell. They think that if G-d really loves you then he wouldn't sentance you to eternal pain and misery. (this was in part of the intro)

Beleive whatever you want, I'm not here to stop you. But if your going to allow yourself to be brainwashed by a movie ment to encourage atheism then be warned. Try to make your own assumptions about weather there is a G-d or not, it's easier to truly beleive something if you are the one who makes the asumptions about it...though I think you already have.
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I was hoping for a better response. I'm not really sure if you did watch the movie, or if you only watched the first 2 minutes. You seem a little angry, the movie does take into account when the bible was written. This documentary clearly shows the mistakes in the translation. In fact, that is what the movie is about. I'm not interested in fighting someone over this, I'm here for a discussion. If you feel you are too busy to watch the video, then move on. My question is directed at people who are willing to view it, and share their views. The joke at the beginning of the movie is the last thing I would have expected come up as conversation after having watched the first segment.

Sorry I didn't specify... I watched part of the movie and I may have been doing something else while listening to it. That thing is an hour long!! :)
My point was the movie could be biased just as much as the Bible.
Not fighting, just warning that some things are biased. Kind of like you can't trust a politician to tell you the truth about the government because they'll give there version which really isn't the truth. Same with this, you can't be objective about making a movie or a book (Bible) about your own religon.
Sorry if I came off as mad (it's been a horrible day :))

BEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE disagrees: Why do you need evidence to believe in something? Do you demand your girlfreind or wife every night that you need evidence that she loves you? No, and that sounds just darn right silly. She would probably reply, 'You need to have faith that I love yo
__________________

OK... That would come down to "TRUST" not faith. If my girlfriend cheated on me and abused me and showed me so much (EVIDENCE) that she hated me, and then if she were to say "you need to have faith that I love you." that would be ridiculous, she earns my trust everyday based on how I treat her and how she treats me. What a silly uneducated reason to go tossing around your reds. If your liberal views of not needing evidence to believe in something was as broad as the ridiculousness as that statement... there would be a lot more innocence in prison, frankly the entire world would fall apart.
It seems you simply did not like my question and wanted to express it by blindly throwing stones. If people didn't ask questions we would still think the earth was flat. Get on topic or move to the next thread and quit picking at straws in mine.

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OK... That would come down to "TRUST" not faith. If my girlfriend cheated on me and abused me and showed me so much (EVIDENCE) that she hated me, and then if she were to say "you need to have faith that I love you." that would be ridiculous, she earns my trust everyday based on how I treat her and how she treats me. What a silly uneducated reason to go tossing around your reds. If your liberal views of not needing evidence to believe in something was as broad as the ridiculousness of that statement... there would be a lot more innocence in prison, frankly the entire world would fall apart.
It seems you simply did not like my question and wanted to express it by blindly throwing stones. If people didn't ask questions we would still think the earth was flat. Get on topic or move to the next thread and quit picking at straws in mine.

I think they did answer your question though. The point was to get an opinion about if we could see a different truth and well they answered with the truth they saw. Maybe not what you personally wanted to hear, but all the same an answer.

Personally I think trust and faith are one in the same, with faith you trust that there is a
G-d with just trust you trust that your girlfriend is being loyal or that she loves you.

This whole thing basically comes down to one of the biggest questions man kind has ever asked, is there a G-d? And answers are bound to be different.

Haven't watched the clip yet, but I will. I just really wanted to comment on this:


Gernald agrees: Balancer: He's talking about religons brainwashing us. They probably are but that's not the point is it? Atheism is a type of religon (like it or not) and it to has the ability to brainwash.

I know this is a bit off topic, but please read this article:

Atheism Myths: Is Atheism a Religion? (http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/blathm_rel_religion.htm)

/threadjack over

I have seem the first part of zeitgeist and it was very intresting and I am a not beliver in god.
One thing for sure is when the end of the world happens some people are goona be disapointent christians believe in god jesus jehovahs believe in him muslims believe in Allah and so on but which one of these people is going to be there if any

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OK... That would come down to "TRUST" not faith. If my girlfriend cheated on me and abused me and showed me so much (EVIDENCE) that she hated me, and then if she were to say "you need to have faith that I love you." that would be ridiculous, she earns my trust everyday based on how I treat her and how she treats me. What a silly uneducated reason to go tossing around your reds. If your liberal views of not needing evidence to believe in something was as broad as the ridiculousness of that statement... there would be a lot more innocence in prison, frankly the entire world would fall apart.
It seems you simply did not like my question and wanted to express it by blindly throwing stones. If people didn't ask questions we would still think the earth was flat. Get on topic or move to the next thread and quit picking at straws in mine.

Hello Greg,

I, myself, watched the entire clip (yes all 2 hours of it!) and might I say that although there were some good 'pointers' in it, people endlessly try to find excuses not to have faith. Why? Because something that is not 'physically' there is unreal. Because you posted this thread, expect to hear the worst. Don't assume that you are going to read what you want to. You asked for opinions; you asked for a discussion and now you are going to get one.

I apologize if I offended your beliefs and do not want to 'argue' over this matter. In my opinion, faith and trust walk in the same shoes. I can understand why it is difficult for most people not to believe something that isn't even there. At one time I did question my beliefs as well, but then decided that if I didn't trust the lord, then I didn't trust myself.

Do you believe in the afterlife? Resserection? Armegadon? Revelations? Ghosts? Entities? Spirits? Souls? I would love to hear your opinion on those!

I hope you don't mind if I throw my $0.02 worth. :)
...but then decided that if I didn't trust the lord, then I didn't trust myself.

Do you believe in the afterlife? Resserection? Armegadon? Revelations? Ghosts? Entities? Spirits? Souls? I would love to hear your opinion on those!I trust myself without a lord, it's quite easy, you actually do it everyday as well. I don't believe in afterlife nor resurrection nor armageddon (except that our sun will blow up some day), Revelations... what's that? No ghosts, entities, spirits, souls in my life. Anything you want to know?

I hope you don't mind if I throw my $0.02 worth. :)I trust myself without a lord, it's quite easy, you actually do it everyday as well. I don't believe in afterlife nor ressurection nor armageddon (except that our sun will blow up some day), Revelations...what's that? No ghosts, entities, spirits, souls in my life. Anything you want to know?

... lol well that sums it all up for you! Revelations is a prophecy in the bible that is the 'end of the world.' Thank you for your million dollar answer!

Just a quick though, your username is needkarama, why? Karama isn't actually an object, but a belief.

My answer was worth a million dollars? Cool.

BTW it's not karama but karma. I kind of use this definition:
"All living creatures are responsible for their karma — their actions and the effects of their actions "
Karma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma#Law_of_Karma)

So basically, if I do wrong it will come right back at me?

Not immediately. That used to be the joke about instant karma, you screw someone over and you get hit by a bus 2 minutes later. Hehe.
Nah, I believe that if you do mean things to others it will come back to haunt you.

Boo! :D

bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE
Hello Greg,

I, myself, watched the entire clip (yes all 2 hours of it!) and might I say that although there were some good 'pointers' in it, people endlessly try to find excuses not to have faith. Why? Because something that is not 'physically' there is unreal. Because you posted this thread, expect to hear the worst. Don't assume that you are going to read what you want to. You asked for opinions; you asked for a discussion and now you are going to get one.

I apologize if I offended your beliefs and do not want to 'argue' over this matter. In my opinion, faith and trust walk in the same shoes. I can understand why it is difficult for most people not to believe something that isn't even there. At one time I did question my beliefs as well, but then decided that if I didn't trust the lord, then I didn't trust myself.

Do you believe in the afterlife? Resserection? Armegadon? Revelations? Ghosts? Entities? Spirits? Souls? I would love to hear your opinion on those!


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I believe in the scientific afterlife, being recycled into the earth. No, I do not believe in resurrection I believe it to be a mislead concept explained very clearly in the documentary as the procession of the equinoxes. I am not a spiritual person at all, so it is a no to the rest of your questions. There is a great difference between trust and faith (contrary to Gerald's views) I have never taken offence to anyone's views against my beliefs. You said that people try to find excuses not to have faith, I find that to be a little insulting, there is a difference between excuses and reasons. In this documentary alone (which was supposed to be the topic) there are a ton of reasons a person would rely on fact based logic and not faith. I have a hard time understanding people who don't understand that.
As for "getting for answers I don't want to hear", my question was watch the movie and I would like to see if you can find problems or flaws within its contents, find a truth other than the one I have come to believe. The majority of the answers in this thread are from people who have not watched the documentary! No, those are not answers I want to hear. I want to discuss the contents... Not how I came to believe what I believe, or why. I've been getting 2 cent answers from people who either never paid attention to its contents, skimmed through it, or watched the first minute. I am yet to get a discussion of any value.
BBRUNETTE)Don't assume that you are going to read what you want to. You asked for opinions; you asked for a discussion and now you are going to get one.
Where is it? I just get irrelevant questions, here it is: My beliefs are reflected in part 1 of zeitgeist, that would be the answer to all of your questions. It's that simple, any insults that have been put out
Might I say that, umm, people have become brainwashed? could come right back at you, considering my beliefs, I could say the same thing. I have not tried to insult anyone's beliefs, I belong to other forums where people debate and argue. I ask, what conclusion do you come to after viewing zeitgeist? If I get an answer like " I think its crap" I would want to know why. People are so quick to jump on with one leg but refuse to share the reigns.

Not immediately. That used to be the joke about instant karma, you screw someone over and you get hit by a bus 2 minutes later. Hehe.
Nah, I believe that if you do mean things to others it will come back to haunt you.

Okay, exactly my point. It is a belief. This said 'karma' is not an actual object you can see, feel or hear so how can you believe in that, but not the lord? I'm sorry if I have offended you with this question :)

You haven't offended me at all. The way I view karma is not related to an unseen being in the sky, it's a societal thing. If you are a jerk to everyone then you run the chances of being shunned by people, being alone, etc. If you want to say that it is a belief then I'm fine with that if that makes you feel good.

Dans ta signature tu parle de confiance en soi et d'être heureux avec soi-même avant d'être avec un autre - je crois à ça aussi. :)

I believe in the scientific afterlife, being recycled into the earth. No, I do not believe in resurrection I believe it to be a mislead concept explained very clearly in the documentary as the procession of the equinoxes. I am not a spiritual person at all, so it is a no to the rest of your questions. There is a great difference between trust and faith (contrary to Gerald's views) I have never taken offence to anyone's views against my beliefs. You said that people try to find excuses not to have faith, I find that to be a little insulting, there is a difference between excuses and reasons. In this documentary alone (which was supposed to be the topic) there are a ton of reasons a person would rely on fact based logic and not faith. I have a hard time understanding people who don't understand that.
As for "getting for answers I don't want to hear", my question was watch the movie and I would like to see if you can find problems or flaws within its contents, find a truth other than the one I have come to believe. The majority of the answers in this thread are from people who have not watched the documentary!! No, those are not answers I want to hear. I want to discuss the contents... Not how I came to believe what I believe, or why. I've been getting 2 cent answers from people who either never paid attention to its contents, skimmed through it, or watched the first minute. I am yet to get a discussion of any value. Where is it? I just get irrelevant questions, here it is: My beliefs are reflected in part 1 of zeitgeist, that would be the answer to all of your questions. It's that simple, any insults that have been put out could come right back at you, considering my beliefs, I could say the same thing. I have not tried to insult anyones beliefs, I belong to other forums where people debate and argue. I ask, what conclusion do you come to after viewing zeitgeist? If I get an answer like " I think its crap" I would want to know why. People are so quick to jump on with one leg but refuse to share the reigns.

Again, you jump to think that I am trying to insult your beliefs. I am not! Understand that! I really did watch the whole documentary Gregg, and am not giving 2 cent answers as you quote. With discussing this topic and just like any other topic, comes opinions, and that is what we are all doing. Tell me what exactly you want to discuss since you are not getting the responses that you want? If you want peple to list flaws, be prepared for their opinions. It is so hard to put a label on what is the truth and what we are mislead to believe because there are always going to be people who think otherwise.

I'm an atheist and have been since I was very young. I always had a great argument due to being brought up in a religious home, but never had the answer as to how religion came into play. My friend brought this video over to my house and it seemed a little boring at first, then about ten minutes into it, I realized this may very well be the answer to my question!! I've researched arguments against the facts here and have found none that out weigh the obvious. The thing is, I'm shocked at how it was in my face and every ones face all this time. Please watch this segment and tell me what you think and if you can see another truth. Best regards, Greg Q

Zeitgeist - The Movie, 2007 (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/)


Hey Greg, I am going to tell you what I know about God, HE DOES NOT EXIST. There are thousands of gods, which one do some of the people that responded believe in? Zeus, how about Apollo? People believe in the God od their community. No one can prove Jesus even existed. He was mentioned never during his life only after. If he did miracles he should have attracted many contemporary writers but did not. Also he never left any writings in his own hand why not? That should have been something he would have wanted to do. Some think if he did exist he was illiterate that's why no writings. As I have stated in other threads Prayer does not work at all.
This is not just my opinion it is a fact. The AHJ did a 3 year 2.4 million , 1800 patient study
There conclusion was that Intercessory prayer doesn't work, that should tell you something
There is so much more I want to say but I don't want to make this too long. Go to my signature, there you will find a forum that will help you understand in more detail

workerbee

Wonderful, another thread about the existence of God. I should know better but here is my take.

First off, one can post thousands of movies, books, articles, about the existence of God, supporting it or refuting it. Also, its intresting to note that all the non-beleivers here like the film and find it "concrete" whilst beleivers here seem to be against it. So really this is just another argument about religion, there are tons of them on this site.

What I do find interesting about the whole thing is that the OP, stating that he has been an atheist his whole life, would be researching and watching movies about whether God exists or not. Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying there is anything wrong with that in the least, although most people who have a firm belief in something need not search for supporting evidence if indeed they were 100% satisfied with that belief. Most beleivers, most I say, do not entertain every theory or article written to base their faith upon, to support what they believe or question themselves. That's why not everyone would feel the need to watch the video, it would make very little difference.

Myself being a beleiver, I can say that it is more of a feeling, a faith that cannot be swayed by any argument against the existence of God or reinforced by any argument supporting the existence of God, it's just my own personal belief. One writer, whom I cannot remember his name, many ages ago, wrote that he believed in God but found it useless and wasteful to explain why. His reasoning being that we as humans cannot possibly understand God, why he created Earth and so on. So his view was that he just believed, but he could not logically explain why, I think that is very applicable to many a beleiver.

Just wanted to point out the zeitgeist is a the german word for spirit of the age, I'm kind of curious why they used this title and not something else? Any ideas?
I guess spirit of the age could be the modern religon of atheism, but atheism dosen't believe in a spirit, right?
Confused!!

Even most atheists agree that Jesus was a person who walked the earth. The evidence from history is only very weakly arguable.

Wonderful, another thread about the existence of God. I should know better but here is my take.

First off, one can post thousands of movies, books, articles, about the existence of God, supporting it or refuting it. Also, its intresting to note that all the non-beleivers here like the film and find it "concrete" whilst beleivers here seem to be against it. So really this is just another argument about religion, there are tons of them on this site.

What I do find interesting about the whole thing is that the OP, stating that he has been an atheist his whole life, would be researching and watching movies about whether God exists or not. Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying there is anything wrong with that in the least, although most people who have a firm beleif in something need not search for supporting evidence if indeed they were 100% satisfied with that beleif. Most beleivers, most I say, do not entertain every theory or article written to base their faith upon, to support what they beleive or question themselves. Thats why not everyone would feel the need to watch the video, it would make very little difference.

Myself being a beleiver, I can say that it is more of a feeling, a faith that cannot be swayed by any argument against the existence of God or reinforced by any argument supporting the existence of God, it's just my own personal beleif. One writer, whom I cannot remeber his name, many ages ago, wrote that he beleived in God but found it useless and wasteful to explain why. His reasoning being that we as humans cannot possibly understand God, why he created Earth and so on. So his view was that he just beleived, but he could not logically explain why, I think that is very applicable to many a beleiver.


So beautiful said. One of the best, and there have been many good ones on this site, but one of the best.

It is a struggle for belivers to voice their love as most don't want to offend and when asked for proof, faith is hard to capture into words or events and is not something you can point to.

All I can offer is if you were here, I would take your hand and ask you to look into my heart. I just don't know how to share it better then that.

Oh one more thing.

For all the testiness that is involved in such arguments I do findit amusing that those who do not believe in God are very adamant about expressing this belief, BOLD LETTERS AND CAPS LOCKS STATING THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST!!

Quite the enlightened fellow that can claim that with the utmost belief. Not that there is anything wrong with feeling that way, just seems comical that the beleivers are labelled "touchy" and thatalot of this argument is based on beleivers not being able to Prove the existence of God, while the non-beleivers can Prove he does not exist with... a... video?

Thanks Scott!

Hey Greg, I am going to tell you what i know about God, HE DOES NOT EXIST. there are thousands of gods, which one do some of the people that responded believe in? Zeus, how about Apollo? People beleive in the God od their community. No one can prove Jesus even existed. He was mentioned never during his life only after. if he did miracles he should have attracted many contemporary writers but did not. Also he never left any writings in his own hand why not? that should have been something he would have wanted to do. Some think if he did exist he was illiterate that's why no writings. As I have stated in other threads Prayer does not work at all.
this is not just my opinion it is a fact. The AHJ did a 3 year 2.4 million , 1800 patient study
there conclusion was that Intercessory prayer doesn't work, that should tell you something
There is so much more I want to say but I don't want to make this too long. Go to my signature, there you will find a forum that will help you understand in more detail

workerbee
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I'll take a look, thanks for your input.

If you want peple to list flaws, be prepared for their opinions. It is so hard to put a label on what is the truth and what we are mislead to believe because there are always going to be people who think otherwise.

What I think Greg wants is someone to refute the facts as stated in that documentary. For example. Is what they said about Horus correct? While there is a difference between truth and fact, one can deal with hard facts.

That being said, there is one issue I have with one of the points that were made. They referred to the virginal birth of some deity on Dec 25th, but December 25th has not always been the same. Different societies have had different calendars. The western calendar that we use today was instituted by Pope Gregory XIII in the late 16th century. At the time 10 days were eliminated during October (see: A Brief History of the Western Calendar (http://www.exovedate.com/a_history_of_the_calendar.html#anchor35372)) So it would appear that its impossible for all those deities to have been born on Dec 25. Now if the documentary had said all those deities were born 3 or 4 days after the Winter Solstice, I would find it more credible.

On the other hand, I've long believed that Christianity incorporated a lot of pagan and naturalist symbology. Therefore, I accept a lot of the points made about the zodiac and astrology being at the core of a lot of these beliefs.

I've said, on several occasions, that I do not believe in organized religion. I believe religion was created by man to explain things he could not explain otherwise. I believe it was also established before strong national governments came into being to provide a framework for morality.

One other point the documentary seems to be making is the similarity between the tales of the Bible and other religions. For example, the event of a flood. The fact that a flood story exists in several different religions tells me that something likely did occur.

And the use of one of George Carlin's diatribes on religion was very apt. One should listen to Carlin's routines on God and religion. Those have the ring of truth to me.

[quote=workerbee]Hey Greg, I am going to tell you what I know about God, HE DOES NOT EXIST. /quote]

Hate to split hairs here, but you do NOT "know" he doesn't exist. Anymore than a christian "knows" he does exist. If there was conclusive proof one way or the other, it would have been found by now. What you mean is you BELIEVE he does not exist. And you are entitled to that belief and there are many factual and logical arguments that can support your belief and vice versa.

But this debate has raged for millennia and will rage for millennia to come because there is no absolute proof one way or the other.

Even most atheists agree that Jesus was a person who walked the earth. The evidence from history is only very weakly arguable.
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And there are a ton of facts that I have read referring to the biblical portion of zeitgeist that prove there are flaws within its narration, so called factual evidence, and other small discrepancies that are arguable. Misinformation can have some directive to teach those who know a little, confuse those who are too scared to know and confirm debunker ridicule. Complex +&- advertising is classic propaganda. We have to be careful not to believe every movie, article, but investigate for ourselves. Weighing the facts and errors, and taking into account the time that has passed I expect there to be flaws in any explanation of why, where and how it all started. This to me so far even with noted flaws seems most likely to be the likelier truth.

[quote=workerbee]Hey Greg, I am going to tell you what i know about God, HE DOES NOT EXIST. /quote]

Hate to split hairs here, but you do NOT "know" he doesn't exist. Anymore than a christian "knows" he does exist. If there was conclusive proof one way or the other, it would have been found by now. What you mean is you BELIEVE he does not exist. And you are entitled to that belief and there are many factual and logical arguments that can support your belief and vice versa.

But this debate has raged for millenia and will rage for millenia to come because there is no absolute proof one way or the other.


One again - worth the repeat Scott. And to me for either side, where facts stop, faith takes over.

If I had the option to rate your answer Allheart I give you a big old greenie for that response:)

GREG - For all the back and forth, it seems to me that you really have taken a liking to this video, as it provides a lot of answers you seek. I'm not sure what's left to discuss other than that?

BMI-a deserverable green one for you as well. What's left to discuss is an argument that will repeat itself unitl the end of our days. Nothing is written in stone so to speak.

Very true - round and round we go :)

Well, I just offer the viewing of this... from my heart to all of yours... It's something that I always tend to say to myself and others...

Listen to your heart - When your thoughts quiet - and nothing else remains - Listen to your heart.

Spwzhgj0zeg

I love it, I just erased a 15 minute response. GRRRR! Great post Scott.


ScottGem]What I think Greg wants is someone to refute the facts as stated in that documentary. For example. Is what they said about Horus correct? While there is a difference between truth and fact, one can deal with hard facts.

SCOTT
That being said, there is one issue I have with one of the points that were made. They referred to the virginal birth of some diety on Dec 25th, but December 25th has not always been the same. Different societies have had different calendars. The western calendar that we use today was instituted by Pope Gregory XIII in the late 16th century. At the time 10 days were eliminated during October (see: A Brief History of the Western Calendar (http://www.exovedate.com/a_history_of_the_calendar.html#anchor35372)) So it would appear that its impossible for all those deities to have been born on Dec 25. Now if the documentary had said all those deities were born 3 or 4 days after the Winter Solstice, I would find it more credible.

That is a popular question I still have no answer for, I have been looking it up and am having a hard time researching it, I lack the experience. This is where I am now in looking at it as possibly mistaken information regarding Horus...
Horus' birth was actually celebrated during the month of Khoiak, (October/November). Though some critics claim Horus was born during the winter solstice, this shows more of a relationship to other pagan religions which considered the solstices sacred. The date of December 25th for the celebration of the birth of Christ was introduced in the 5th century, and was merely a continuation of the Roman festival of Saturnalia, which was celebrated in the Roman empire. The Roman Emperor Aurelian blended Saturnalia with a number of birth celebrations of saviour Gods from other religions, into a single holy day: DEC-25. After much argument, the developing Christian church adopted this date as the birthday of their saviour, Jesus. The people of the Roman Empire were accustomed to celebrating the birth of a God on that day. So, it was easy for the church to divert people's attention to Jesus' birth. It is just a date chosen for celebration... But even if that is correct, I would consider it to be an expected flaw that still has a logical explanation ( I'll keep looking). I am new to this astrological concept, actually I'm unfamiliar with astrology all together. But the literary similarities between Egyptian and Christian religions are too massive to be ignored, and to me'' well worth the research.


On the other hand, I've long believed that Christianity incorporated a lot of pagan and naturalist symbology. Therefore, I accept a lot of the points made about the zodiac and astrology being at the core of a lot of these beliefs.

I think there are to many similarities to let it leave our minds as merely coincidences.



I've said, on several occasions, that I do not believe in organized religion. I believe religion was created by man to explain things he could not explain otherwise. I believe it was also established before strong national governments came into being to provide a framework for morality.

This is something I too believe, it seems I have ended countless discussions with that point, just never so elegantly put. I believe zeitgeist supports that theory in many ways.


One other point the documentary seems to be making is the similarity between the tales of the Bible and other religions. For example, the event of a flood. The fact that a flood story exists in several different religions tells me that something likely did occur.

I have always considered the "Noah's Ark" story to be nothing more than a silly tale that I never believed in grade school. I believe there were many great floods, and even giant monsters that walked around the earth long before we got here. That is truly a story that requires magic and faith to be true. American Atheists - Debate - Noah's Ark (http://www.atheists.org/evolution/morrisdebate.html)


And the use of one of George Carlin's diatribes on religion was very apt. One should listen to Carlin's routines on God and religion. Those have the ring of truth to me.

Unfamiliar with this and will look it up. I'm stalling on finishing my home gym, upon finishing I have to quit smoking. Those are the rules, well... Maybe I can stay on for a few more minutes.
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[QUOTE=Greg Quinn]I love it, I just erased a 15 minute response.


Any you say there's no God, ever heard of Divine Intervention :D

LOL kidding... joking... it's Friday... I'm being silly... Mr. GQ ;)

( Ya have to admit... pretty good line though, eh ?)

What I do find interesting about the whole thing is that the OP, stating that he has been an atheist his whole life, would be researching and watching movies about whether God exists or not. Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying there is anything wrong with that in the least, although most people who have a firm beleif in something need not search for supporting evidence if indeed they were 100% satisfied with that beleif. Most beleivers, most I say, do not entertain every theory or article written to base their faith upon, to support what they beleive or question themselves. Thats why not everyone would feel the need to watch the video, it would make very little difference.

What's wrong with wanting to learn? Wanting to learn, to really understand why believers believe the way that they do? What's wrong with getting information and hearing other people's opinions and thoughts? You're a believer, you are (I assume) 100% satisfied with that belief, right? Does that mean you don't read about religion, about other people's religious experiences, about "god's work"? Ever pick up a bible (assume you're a Christian, sorry, I don't know!)? Why would you do all that if you are 100% satisfied with your belief?

There's a difference between entertaining every theory and article, and viewing only a few that are of particular interest for one reason or another.

PS: These questions are really just rhetorical, you don't have to answer them! :)

If I had the option to rate your answer Allheart I give you a big old greenie for that response:)

GREG - For all the back and forth, it seems to me that you really have taken a liking to this video, as it provides alot of answers you seek. I'm not sure whats left to discuss other than that?
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LOL... I suppose I do.
Thanks for your response.

Lol... I'm not going to answer those questions Jillean, however, I do believe I mentioned there was nothing wrong with researching the topic.

What's wrong with wanting to learn? Wanting to learn, to really understand why believers believe the way that they do? What's wrong with getting information and hearing other people's opinions and thoughts? You're a believer, you are (I assume) 100% satisfied with that belief, right? Does that mean you don't read about religion, about other people's religious experiences, about "god's work"? Ever pick up a bible (assume you're a Christian, sorry, I don't know!)? Why would you do all that if you are 100% satisfied with your belief?

There's a difference between entertaining every theory and article, and viewing only a few that are of particular interest for one reason or another.

PS: These questions are really just rhetorical, you don't have to answer them! :)
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I agree... I've studied both sides of religion, I've never only had a one way view.

“Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.”

Mark Twain quotes

lol...I'm not going to answer those questions Jillean, however, I do beleive I mentioned there was nothing wrong with researching the topic.

You did say that, and I wasn't trying to "attack" you or anything (hope you didn't take it that way!); but you also said most people who have a firm belief in something need not search for supporting evidence if indeed they were 100% satisfied with that belief.. My questions were more to give you perspective and realize why someone would choose to search for more evidence and more knowledge.

You're a smart guy, I think you figured it out! :)

The noahs ark thing well mabe they were a great flood Here in Hull engand on June 25th last year the whole of hull virtually flooded and they is not a day goes by that it is not mentioned in the papers or on the loacal radio so it will still be mentioned in years to come.
And as all storys go down the line it will no doubt change and before long some it will end up like the noah story that is all it is a story built on something that may or may not have happened

[QUOTE=Greg Quinn]I love it, I just erased a 15 minute response.


Any you say there's no God, ever heard of Divine Intervention :D

LOL kidding....joking....it's Friday...I'm being silly...Mr. GQ ;)

( Ya have to admit...pretty good line though, eh ?)
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I could feel him (GOD) urging me to push that "Esc" button.

[QUOTE=Allheart]
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[B]I could feel him (GOD) urging me to push that "Esc" button.


No my dear friend, He pushed it while you weren't looking ;)

The noahs ark thing well mabe they was a great flood Here in Hull engand on june 25th last year the whole of hull virtually flooded and they is not a day goes by that it is not mentioned in the papers or on the loacal radio so it will still be mentioned in years to come.
And as all storys go down the line it will no doubt change and before long some it will end up like the noah story that is all it is a story built on something that may or may not have happened
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X-mas 2005- I was at my mother in-laws house, talking to her friends and hubby. These people are all very educated professors at the University of Alberta, I was awestruck at how when a PBS special came on they all started talking about the "ark" and how there finally may be proof of it's existence. I sometimes forget that it doesn't seem as silly to some people as it does to me.
At the same time the Tsunami had struck a few hours before and they showed no interest. I was dying to get home and watch the BBC, I'm sure they looked over at me to the sound of teeth grinding with the odd tooth explosion. Being an Atheist comes with having to almost bite your tongue off sometimes. Now @ X-mas I keep a mouth guard in my pocket. JK

I get I Jillean, I do.

I WOULD like to clarify, however, it is 3:42pm here on a Friday and I've exeeded my quota of intelligent posts for the day, that being 1. I'm sleepy and all I can do from now to quitting time is make fairly obvious jokes and think about how they get the caramilk into the caramilk bar.

Oh, and how dare you accuse me of being intelligent:)

I get i Jillean, I do.

I WOULD like to clarify, however, it is 3:42pm here on a Friday and I've exeeded my quota of intelligent posts for the day, that being 1. I'm sleepy and all I can do from now to quitting time is make fairly obvious jokes and think about how they get the caramilk into the caramilk bar.

Oh, and how dare you accuse me of being intelligent:)

So noted. I expect nothing but bumbling idiot responses out of you for the rest of the day! Don't let me down! :D

K,

God good, mee like, have a good endweek:)

See you.

To BMI sorry about the caps I do it so it won't be missed. I'll watch it next time. Everyone it seems ignored what I said about prayer. Even Mother Terasa had many doubts for 50 years she wrote to her priest friend who had her letters published recently. She said things like God was silent when she prayed. So the no faith argument does not work she spent her life trying to help and got no answers. That should be a red flag to most of you.
I used to be a Christian but had so many questions I read from scholars over the years I just ended up an atheist. My belief is based on research, fact and observation, so yeah there is no God, not a Biblical god that's for sure and jesus if he existed was probably illiterate. He said that illness is caused by sin, does that sound like God speaking or an illiterate?

workerbee

Jesus was illiterate?

Perhaps you misinterpret what is being said, you can find no logic in the statement made?

The article you refer to must be the one posted in Time magazine. You say Mother Teresa received no answer from God, was it not her that said God told her to do all the great things she did? Did Mother Teresa die believing in a God despite the fact that she felt alone? I wonder why that would be, perhaps it is along the lines of what I mentioned before.

Sorry if I sound aggressive workerbee, I know you do not intend to come off the way your writing suggests, however, that's how it seems. ESPECIALLY the website post "whydoesGodhateamputees", by far the stupidest, most inane, mis-guided, foolish web address I have ever come across. I question why you would even post a link to something like that, you seem like a very nice person.

Let me answer your questions one by one. As far as jesus being illiterate, as I said there were no writings in his hand so it is possible that he was illiterate as were most people of his day. He said illness is caused by sin, so does that sound like an all knowing god speaking or someone who did not know about illness. 2 Mother Terasa said those things form her letters (read her book just came out) As far as the amuptees site is concerned I am surprised you can't see the humor in it. The point of the name is that we hear about certain cures , a lot turn out to be false but if they are true then why no amputees ever getting a limb back? God must have something against them or these cures are false because no matter how much you pray God can't grow a limb, why not? Perhaps pray does not work ( read the clinical trail) I want proof if possible of prayer, etc. Without proof you get lots of nutjobs, like those crazies who thought that killing themselves they would enter a U F O hiding behind Hale-bopp or the group who believe with no proof I might add that zionists are planning to take over the U S for the antichrist, etc, etc,etc. these days faith is just not enough, the people I just menetioned all had faith they were correct

workerbee

Well, I think "god" was created by people, who realised, that to be able to control masses of people they need something untouchable, un reachable who people can fear.
A king, or any any living ruler is vulnerable, since they are physically harmable... but a "thing" like "god" is not...
People put down the 10, and no one can get angry at them, because "god" say that...
The whole world is controlled by "gods"... lol the real "god" is money though.. LOL
But a parent, who loose a child, need to be able to say : " she or he is with god now in haven"... otherwise it would loose its mind.
I work as a paramedic now, and when I get some one to breath again relatives often say: "Thank god"
.. and I think: "No Mr. thank me"... If its up to your god, why did u dialed 911... why not the number of the Vatican?
When 30.000 children dies on this planet EVERY 24 hours... and the big churches are sitting on such an unbelievable amount of money... how can they preach to me about I am not a good person, because I don't believe they BS?
Its clear to me, that there are no god as such... if there would be god, he/she would have ended our misery long time ago...

Its clear to me, that there are no god as such....if there would be god, he/she would have ended our misery long time ago....

I agree with much of what you said. One of the reasons I don't believe in organized religion is because I cannot believe in a deity powerful enough to create our universe who would allow such suffering as we see daily.

I'm sure other people will argue free will and preparation for heaven and stuff, but that just smacks of the carrot and stick approach where the carrot is never seen.

I agree with much of what you said. One of the reasons I don't believe in organized religion is because I cannot believe in a diety powerful enough to create our universe who would allow such suffering as we see daily.

I'm sure other people will argue free will and preparation for heaven and stuff, but that just smacks of the carrot and stick approach where the carrot is never seen.

Hi Scott,

It is my belief in my heart that Our Heavenly Father does not allow all the suffering we see.
We create the suffering and we allow it. This makes Our Father's heart very heavy and sad.

The starving children? That's our responsibility - collectively, we create this suffering.

The best way I can compare it - which may be off the wall - but then again it's me :)...

It would be like saying, I can't believe his parents allow him to be addicted to drugs.

No way would a parent want their child to do drugs and certainly would not allow it.

Our Father is counting on all of us, to help each other out and I don't think we are doing too well. My shameful self included.

Sorry :( Didn't mean to preach - and not saying your wrong Scott - just sharing my beleifs and what is in my heart.

Sorry :( Didn't mean to preach - and not saying your wrong Scott - just sharing my beleifs and what is in my heart.

And I respect those beliefs. Clearly more people believe the way you do then the way I do. But your reasoning is just the type of reasoning I expected. Its all based on faith and I'm a hard facts kind of guy.

And I respect those beliefs. Clearly more people believe the way you do then the way I do. But your reasoning is just the type of reasoning I expected. Its all based on faith and I'm a hard facts kinda guy.

I respect your beliefs as well and no, I think there are many that belief as you do as well.

I'm sure there are some hard facts out there, but that's not my strong area.

I just share with you, that my belief is, that God does love us and never wants or wishes us to suffer.

Thanks though for respecting my beliefs. Never doubted you would. :)

All heart, it is a bit naïve to say we cause all the suffering, sounds like an excuse to me. At any rate God does not help at all. I would like to ask you a question allheart, if someone has a problem like a tumor in the spinal column and this person loses the ablilty to walk
Will pray cause this person to be 100% normal again like in the Bible? I think you know the answer to that. Pray does not work!! That should be a red flag to you. Most people believe because it is a pshcological need. Also people believe the religion ofhteir community so if you were brought up in India you would be walking with a big red dot on you forehead


workerbee

Do you believe in love? You can't see it or touch it you feel it. And I have spoken to the Lord in prayer and felt him so strong that it amazes me that people don't know he's there. How did you get your breathe? It came from somewhere.and as far as giving the 10 to God, reason being is because it's hard to let it go. It's called sacrifice and what do we love more than anything, but money, to let it go shows you love him more, just as you sacrifice in fasting, oh how we love food.I say this not to be hateful but because I can't stand the thought of anyone perishing due to ignorance, thank God he said he would have mercy on the ignorant. God is real wheither you believe or not and I KNOW THE DAY WILL COME WHEN EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD and no amount of other gods or beliefs can make that fact go away. If you have children why would you want to chance teaching them this. If the time comes and Gods not there(ha!ha!)then you will have lost nothing. But if he is may he have mercy on them I pray. Love to all

I KNOW THE DAY WILL COME WHEN EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORDNah. Not even in all Caps.


if you have children why would you want to chance teaching them this. I have kids, they are doing quite well without reading the bible, imagine that!

all heart, it is a bit naive to say we cause all the suffering, sounds like an excuse to me. At any rate God does not help at all. I would like to ask you a question allheart, if someone has a problem like a tumor in the spinal column and this person loses the ablilty to walk
will pray cause this person to be 100% normal again like in the Bible? i think you know the answer to that. Pray does not work!!!!! that should be a red flag to you. Most people beleive because it is a pshcological need. Also poeple beleive the religion ofhteir community so if you were brought up in India you would be walking with a big red dot on you forehead


workerbee


Did someone call Allheart... here I am :):).

Hi workerbee... ahhhhhh wonderful question... if someone has a tumor - would it be God who heals it?

It is my belief that God has blessed certain people with certain gifts. And I believe that God has blessed certain people with the gifts and intelligence needed to be a doctor.
So, indirectly yes, God does have his loving hand in there to help heal. Now, I can hear your thoughts... what happens if the tumor does not heal. I believe in my heart, that God wants to call that person home. It is their time and we their loved ones, yes suffer with great grief, but because we love them so dearly, we have such a peace and joy that they are in a far better place and believe you me, it's not a defense mechanism.

I miss my Dad and My Father in Law so much. Two people are no longer on this earth, that love me, truly love me... how many people actually truly love us in that way? And now I have two less, but guess what? My heart is so incredibly happy that they are in a far better place and finally at peace.

And I wouldn't mind a red dot on my forehead at all - :) I actaully love that look.

I may be naïve, not sure, probably am about certain things, but as I get older, sadly the fog lifts a little more and I don't always like what I see, but sometimes I do.

Yes, I believe those children starving we can fix it. There are many sufferings here on earth that we have the capability to fix.

Sometimes, I think it's too easy to blame God - ( I don't mean that harshly ) It's almost like blaming the teacher for failing the test when we didn't study.

I hope you know I do not demand I am right. I promise you, I feel my way around many things and count on you and many to help guide me and hopefully I can help guide others as well.

Workerbee - I see no humour in you website posting and your conclusions based on amputees growing limbs ( God can, God should, why not) and all that is not even me worth trying to explain.

Your obviously taking interpretations of the Bible and applying them out of context, not knowingly of course. The remark ablout Jesus saying illness is caused by sin is a very relevant and logical statement, you are viewing it on the surface, it may mean different things to different people but it makes perfect sense to me, I'm not going to write 10 paragraphs explaining my view though.

I know exactly what Mother Teresa wrote and, again, you interpret it according to your beleifs, if you do not believe in a God it is small wonder why you view what she is saying in the light that you do. My interpretation of what she was saying is far deeper than just the words spoken, I would imagine that is so based on my faith.

Finally, this stuff about proof, show me proof, prove God exists and prayer works, is just such a pointless argument and really you know very well none can do that. Prove love then? I want the scientific explanation please! Prove all your feeling to me, hurt, love, sadness, I want proof in front of me showing me that these are indeed your feelings and that they do exist because I do not accept you telling me they are real, and so therefore I will post on this thread that you have no emotions and there is no such thing as love regardless of how strongly you try to convince me.

Workerbee - I see no humour in you website posting and your conclusions based on amputees growing limbs ( God can, God should, why not) and all that is not even me worth trying to explain.

Your obviously taking interpretations of the Bible and applying them out of context, not knowingly of course. The remark ablout Jesus saying illness is caused by sin is a very relevant and logical statement, you are viewing it on the surface, it may mean different things to different people but it makes perfect sense to me, I'm not going to write 10 paragraphs explaining my view though.

I know exactly what Mother Teresa wrote and, again, you interpret it according to your beleifs, if you do not beleive in a God it is small wonder why you view what she is saying in the light that you do. My interpretation of what she was saying is far deeper than just the words spoken, I would imagine that is so based on my faith.

Finally, this stuff about proof, show me proof, proove God exists and prayer works, is just such a pointless argument and really you know very well none can do that. Proove love then? I want the scientific explaination please! Proove all your feeling to me, hurt, love, sadness, I want proof in front of me showing me that these are indeed your feelings and that they do exist b/c I do not accept you telling me they are real, and so therefore I will post on this thread that you have no emotions and there is no such thing as love regardless of how strongly you try to convince me.

Well put BMI! I agree with you 100%.

I completely did not see Workabees signature... still haven't. By the sounds of it... not going to either.

Nah. Not even in all Caps.

I have kids, they are doing quite well without reading the bible, imagine that!




I do imagine that and I cry for them. But there is always hope. The lord can bring anyone to there knee's. God bless all

Well put BMI! I agree with you 100%.

So many saying show me proof that god is real, but they have no proof of how they breathe every day or love. How can you really love without god? He is love. '' BELOVED LET US LOVE ONE ANOTHER FOR LOVE IS OF GOD AND EVERY ONE THAT LOVETH IS BORN OF GOD AND KNOWETH GOD, HE THAT LOVETH NOT KNOWETH NOT GOD FOR GOD IS LOVE'' 1st JOHN 4: 7-8

Years ago I watched a documentary on A&E about death. I remember the leading NY forensic anthropologist started his career as a firm die hard "believer", after a few years on the job he became an atheist stating that "NON QUOTE: A God would never allow the things to happen to little children and people that he has seen happen." People say it is part of gods plan? The little girl would be brutally raped and murdered & die the most horrific death imaginable. If that is gods plan then he is very sadistic, and I wouldn't consider him to be my friend. And if I were a believer and that was my little girl everyone around me including myself would blame the man and wish death upon him. Then people say "It was the devil somehow working through the man who committed the crime" and I say, your God could have prevented it.
I think its silly to believe that a God would humour an evil force such as the devil and allow that man who committed the violent sick crime to become what he became as a result to his horrific unbearable childhood. I'm running long on this outside the bible view, but to sum it up. Why would a all powerful God need puppets? Do gods get bored? Where would a little girls suffering show up in this divine plan? Why would a god need a plan? Plans are for
Vacations, or go to a party. Plans are for humans not Gods.

i do imagine that and i cry for them. but there is always hope. the lord can bring anyone to there knee's. god bless all

Oh Puhleeze!!

Why can't you respect that others don't believe as you do? Look at the exchanges between AllHeart and myself. She is happy and comfortable in her beliefs and she is secure enough that she doesn't have to foist them on someone who believes differently. She states what she believes in a way that invites people to explore her beliefs if they want to, but not hit them over the head with it.

I'm sure NK's kids are happy and well adjusted and do not miss tyranny of the church. I'm also sure that if they CHOOSE to explore other religions NK will not stand in their way.

Reasons unknown to all human beings, but he lets it happen; for a reason. IT IS hard to believe that God lets all horrific things happen to the most innocent, and those shall be punished. Do you believe in Karma Gregg?

It is funny how in a lot of drunk driving accidents, the sober person lives and the drunk person survives. I believe through Gods eyes, he will suffer with the pain of knowing that he killed an innocent person. That is punishment enough.

Oh! Please Won't Be The Words At That Time. And As Far As My Belief I Say This As Pleasantly As I Can, Do You Really Believe If You Don't Shout It?? & I Know It's Hard To Understand Why Children Must Suffer, But The Fact Is We Are Here To Make A Decision Heaven Or Hell. This Life Is Not The Point It's Our Eternity. That's What It's All About.your Soul Carries Good Or Bad And People Get Caught In The Crossfire Of Your Decision When You Choose To Be Evil And That's Why People Get Hurt. And That's Why God Prepared A Better Place. This Life Is But A Rehearsal

Wow, a foresensic anthropologist. Always strikes me as funny that people will believe and give a lot of merit to persons that are of the opinion God does not exist based on personal experiences, although if a beleiver gives an account of why they do believe in God it's considered preaching?

The question of the existence of God dates back many thousands of years ago, Socrates spoke of it, Plato spoke of it, Dante spoke of it, although we are analyzibg the views of a video and some NY City anthropologist. The above mentioned persons were, and still are, regarded as the most intelligent thinkers of all time, they practically shaped the world through their theories and ideas. ALL, believed in God, all gave reasons they believed in God, reasons I doubt many here would be able to argue against (some of the greatest thinkers of all time could'nt).

What also strikes me as ironic is that Einstein, regarded as the most brilliant scientist to ever exist, also believed in God, although he too made no argument nor did he attempt to prove his belief through science, he just believed. So instead of arguing or debating with me and others on this site, perhaps you would be better off researching their views rather than other, less credible literature. Maybe that would give some more perspective.

so many saying show me proof that god is real, but they have no proof of how they breathe every day or love. how can you really love without god? he is love. '' BELOVED LET US LOVE ONE ANOTHER FOR LOVE IS OF GOD AND EVERY ONE THAT LOVETH IS BORN OF GOD AND KNOWETH GOD, HE THAT LOVETH NOT KNOWETH NOT GOD FOR GOD IS LOVE'' 1st JOHN 4: 7-8
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Proof is in science, you can read about it or watch NOVA. They slam lifeless molecules together and create compounds etc... NOVA | Transcripts | Origins: How Life Began | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3112_origins.html)

Years ago I watched a documentary on A&E about death. I remember the leading NY forensic anthropologist started his career as a firm die hard "believer", after a few years on the job he became an atheist stating that "NON QUOTE: A God would never allow the things to happen to little children and people that he has seen happen." People say it is part of gods plan? The little girl would be brutally raped and murdered & die the most horrific death imaginable. If that is gods plan then he is very sadistic, and I wouldn't consider him to be my friend. And if I were a believer and that was my little girl everyone around me including myself would blame the man and wish death upon him. Then people say "It was the devil somehow working through the man who committed the crime" and I say, your God could have prevented it.
I think its silly to believe that a God would humour an evil force such as the devil and allow that man who committed the violent sick crime to become what he became as a result to his horrific unbearable childhood. I'm running long on this outside the bible view, but to sum it up. Why would a all powerful God need puppets? Do gods get bored? Where would a little girls suffering show up in this divine plan? Why would a god need a plan? Plans are for
vacations, or go to a party. Plans are for humans not Gods.


Hey GQ - :)

No you couldn't be more right - Having anyone harmed is never in God's plan especially children.

Gregg, God gave each of us a free will in hopes that we do turn to him, in hopes we do the right thing.

I know I keep relaying it to Being a parent, but it's the best correlation I can come up with.

It's like your beatuful child, as much as your heart will want to follow him around 24/7, there will be a time, that his little wings will spread and off to school he will go and you will have to leave go for some hours of the day. During that time he may run into negative peer pressure, now you hope with all your heart that your wonderful teachings that you have done at home, will kick in and he will make the right choice. But you won't be able to be there to scoop him up out of harms way.

It's sort of the same thing. God is watching over each of us and hoping beyond hope that we love each other and stay in his light. But he will not force you to love him.

And no those children that get hurt is a direct result of some human being very very sick.

I wish I could express it better, but I am trying.

If God would intervene on my whole day... Guess what... Dear Allheart here would have
Her feet up counting her millions ;) . But guess what, life where everything was done for us and we just sat around, and didn't have to think as hard, or work as hard, or learn or teach...

We would never meet our potetial. We would never know the gifts that we truly do possess.

Once again, if you have a son, you don't want him to win the game and all he did was sit on the bench, you want him to go out there do his very best, and get that game winning run :).

I'm making myself dizzy :)

I do love you all - I truly do.

Wow, a foresensic anthropologist. Always strikes me as funny that people will beleive and give alot of merit to persons that are of the opinion God does not exist based on personal experiences, although if a beleiver gives an account of why they do beleive in God it's considered preaching?

The question of the existence of God dates back many thousands of years ago, Socrates spoke of it, Plato spoke of it, Dante spoke of it, although we are analyzibg the views of a video and some NY City anthropologist. The above mentioned persons were, and still are, regarded as the most intelligent thinkers of all time, they practically shaped the world through their theories and ideas. ALL, beleived in God, all gave reasons why they beleived in God, reasons I doubt many here would be able to argue against (some of the greatest thinkers of all time could'nt).

What also strikes me as ironic is that Einstein, regarded as the most brilliant scientist to ever exist, also beleived in God, although he too made no argument nor did he attempt to proove his beleif through science, he just beleived. So instead of arguing or debating with me and others on this site, perhaps you would be better off researching their views rather than other, less credible literature. Maybe that would give some more perspective.
___________________________________-
___________________________________

It was in relation to the discussion just prior. It is in reference to a person who sees the worst of evil close up, and how it effected his beliefs. And do you really think for a second Albert Einstein would come out and say, " Oh yeah... There is probably no GOD!! He would have had better luck saying he was gay. LOL, don't be so quick to be a prick in this room. You can communicate with out being a smart as#.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Proof is in science, you can read about it or watch NOVA. They slam lifeless molecules together and create compounds etc... NOVA | Transcripts | Origins: How Life Began | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3112_origins.html)


Who slams those compounds together i ask. See i can't for the life of me understand how that first person got here to mix anything together. Or how the tree's know how to grow and nature knows how to water it and when we grow a child in our body, how does our body know just how much milk to make for that baby i could go on and on. You seem like a very kind person but i have seen things that you can't imagine and i guess your saying that you want proof and we can't give that to you. See the bible says we must work out our own salvation with conviction. I am going to pray everyday that god himself will show you proof. Love to ya

WHO SLAMS THOSE COMPOUNDS 2GETHER I ASK. SEE I CAN'T FOR THE LIFE OF ME UNDERSTAND HOW THAT FIRST PERSON GOT HERE TO MIX ANYTHING TOGETHER. OR HOW THE TREE'S KNOW HOW TO GROW AND NATURE KNOWS HOW TO WATER IT AND WHEN WE GROW A CHILD IN OUR BODY, HOW DOES OUR BODY KNOW JUST HOW MUCH MILK TO MAKE FOR THAT BABY I COULD GO ON AND ON. YOU SEEM LIKE A VERY KIND PERSON BUT I HAVE SEEN THINGS THAT YOU CAN'T IMAGINE AND I GUESS YOUR SAYING THAT YOU WANT PROOF AND WE CAN'T GIVE THAT TO YOU. SEE THE BIBLE SAYS WE MUST WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION WITH CONVICTION. I AM GOING TO PRAY EVERYDAY THAT GOD HIMSELF WILL SHOW YOU PROOF. LOVE TO YAThe CapsLock key is just above the left Shift key. You can thank me later.

I KNOW THE DAY WILL COME WHEN EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD and no amount of other gods or beliefs can make that fact go away. if you have children why would you want to chance teaching them this. if the time comes and Gods not there(ha!ha!)then you will have lost nothing. but if he is may he have mercy on them i pray. love to all

I know one thing I will instill in my kids - to respect other people's beliefs and not go around screaming that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I mean, that's just rude.

The CapsLock key is just above the left Shift key. You can thank me later.


THE ESC KEY IS TOP LEFT, NO NEED FOR THANKS

Smart A$$??

Take it the way you want to take it. I could say the same for many in this room.

I really love your comment about Einstein, honestly its quite profound. What else could he say? Are you suggesting he said that out of fear of looking foolish?? Please prove that to me... lol!

You sit there and ask for proof but you rebuke points based on that!!

I think this thread is just about finished, it has long since ceased to be an informative, intellectual debate.

I know one thing I will instill in my kids - to respect other people's beliefs and not go around screaming that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I mean, that's just rude.


How is it rude to be concerned for people? Look at other comments saying that there is no god. Your talking about my friend. If you believe something and entertain the fact that it is not real then you really don't know for sure if you believe and i know. My opinion is as valuable as any one else's, i'm just not one to say well duh maybe you're right or maybe i'm right. I don't know.

I know one thing I will instill in my kids - to respect other people's beliefs and not go around screaming that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I mean, that's just rude.

Right on Jillian!!

I am involved in another thread with Jenny where she is claiming to be doing things out of love when, in fact, she is promoting her own agenda without regard for someone else's beliefs. In the post you responded to, she yells that Jesus is the Lord and nothing will make that fact go away. But anyone who holds that that is a fact is clearly closed minded and has no respect for anyone who doesn't see things her way. That Jesus is the Lord is a matter of FAITH, not fact.

If she wants to hold onto that faith and if it comforts her, then more power to her. But when she tries to tell others not to take a chance that her beliefs are the only rights ones, she goes way over the top.

BMI, I'm not sure why you place so much emphasis on historical figures or other highly intelligent people believing in god. Are you saying we should just bow to the "smarties" and stop thinking for ourselves? Have you considered that for many of these figures, rejecting the existence of god would have been social suicide? You say Einstein didn't look for "proof" of god, he just believed; well, whoopidty doo for him! :) I like a little more evidence for my beliefs, and it doesn't make me wrong.

I think perspective can be found in reading about other people's beliefs, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to agree. One of the reasons I participate on this site and in these threads is because I'm trying to get a better understanding of the religious perspective. I'm of the opinion that people are either born with faith or they aren't; being someone who wasn't, it's interesting to me to discuss things with people who were. There are some people on this site who are very tolerant of others, who express their view, but don't argue and fight with someone with an opposing view. Then there are those who insist they are right and argue with people of opposing views and do nothing but push others away.

You Have No Idea What You Are Talking About. You Seem To Be Making This About You And What You Believe Other People Should And Shouldn't Say, And That Is Simply Not Right. You Should Voice Your Opinion And Let Me Voice Mine And At Some Point Grow Up

Smart A$$??????

Take it the way you wanna take it. I could say the same for many in this room.

I really love your comment about Einstein, honestly its quite profound. What else could he say? Are you suggesting he said that out of fear of looking foolish????? Please proove that to me......lol!

You sit there and ask for proof but you rebuke points based on that!!!!!!!!

I think this thread is just about finished, it has long since ceased to be an informative, intellectual debate.

Yes, I probably won't be checking in too much either.

Please, I am not Ms. Sweeter then Sugar - or Ms. Patty Perfect. I promise you, I know
I am far from it, and sharing what's in my heart with all of you really does help, and I thank you for letting me share.

But I can get my curls in a knot as well :) - I don't like it but I do.

Anyway, when I said I love you all I meant it and it saddens me to no end sometimes when we can't hear each other.

I will point out - that those of you who do believe in God, embrace that and embrace others whether they believe in God or not. And it's not okay to be unkind or to have a sharp tongue. Ever - even under the guise of attempting to share God's love, because having a sharp tongue and letting your human side out, is not spreading God's love.

As I said, I can get my tail in the air too, and don't even resemble being perfect, so call me on it when you see it.

For those of you who do believe in God, remember a sin... is a sin... is a sin... and all hurt Our Father, and I think judging our brother's and sisters or putting ourselves above anyone, may hurt Him the very most.

Okay over and out :)
When I said I love you all earlier I really did mean it.

Comment Not To Jillian But To Scott

HOW IS IT RUDE TO BE CONCERNED FOR PEOPLE? LOOK AT OTHER COMMENTS SAYING THAT THERE IS NO GOD. YOUR TALKING ABOUT MY FRIEND. IF YOU BELEIVE SOMETHING AND ENTERTAIN THE FACT THAT IT IS NOT REAL THEN YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW FOR SURE IF YOU BELIEVE AND I KNOW. MY OPINION IS AS VALUEABLE AS ANY ONE ELSES, I'M JUST NOT ONE TO SAY WELL DUH MAYBE YOU'RE RIGHT OR MAYBE I'M RIGHT. I DON'T KNOW.

First it is rude to type in ALL Caps, that's yelling at people. Second, it is rude to be "concerned for people" when they have not asked for or shown no interest in your concern. Third, its perfectly possible to respect someone's right to believe what they want without doubting your own beliefs. Its easy to say; "well I beleive this way... " rather then; "you're wrong, my belief is the only one". The latter is rude.

What's worse here is your holier than thou attitude has the opposite effect of what you want. It turns people off and shuts off your message.


You Have No Idea What You Are Talking About. You Seem To Be Making This About You And What You Believe Other People Should And Shouldn't Say, And That Is Simply Not Right. You Should Voice Your Opinion And Let Me Voice Mine And At Some Point Grow Up

Is this the comment you said was to me? If so, you clearly are not reading what I've been saying. But that's not surprising, you refuse to accept any viewpoint other than your own. Instead of just expressing your view you have to attack other people's views. Its not in WHAT you say, but how you say it.

And I'm very grown up, by the way, you should try it sometime.

HOW IS IT RUDE TO BE CONCERNED FOR PEOPLE? LOOK AT OTHER COMMENTS SAYING THAT THERE IS NO GOD. YOUR TALKING ABOUT MY FRIEND. IF YOU BELEIVE SOMETHING AND ENTERTAIN THE FACT THAT IT IS NOT REAL THEN YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW FOR SURE IF YOU BELIEVE AND I KNOW. MY OPINION IS AS VALUEABLE AS ANY ONE ELSES, I'M JUST NOT ONE TO SAY WELL DUH MAYBE YOU'RE RIGHT OR MAYBE I'M RIGHT. I DON'T KNOW.

jenny, there is a difference between being concerned for others and screaming at others, insisting you are right and they are wrong. I don't see any atheists doing this:

THE TIME WILL COME WHEN ALL RELIGIOUS WHACKOS REALIZE THEY ARE WRONG AND THEY HAVE WASTED THEIR LIFE PRAYING TO AN INVISIBLE MAN IN THE SKY!! THEY WILL HAVE WASTED THE ONE LIFE THEY HAD ON THIS EARTH FILLED WITH HATE FOR OTHERS AND FIGHTING A LOSING BATTLE, BECAUSE IN THE END, THEY WILL ROT IN THE GROUND LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!! NO PEARLY GATES, NO Fiery PITS OF HELL FOR THE BAD GUYS!! JUST ROTTING IN THE GROUND!! WAKE UP, PEOPLE!! YOU'RE WRONG AND YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME!!

Was that rude? I'm just concerned for other people; I don't want to see you spend your life worshipping something that isn't there when you can accomplish much more and be a better person by accepting there is no god! I'm just trying to help!

And yes, your opinion is just as valuable as anyone else's, and is welcomed. But there are ways to express your opinion without being quite as rude as you have been. You also need to learn that you can respect someone else's opinion without agreeing with it. For example: you believe in god. I don't. But I respect your opinion. See? That's wasn't so hard.

PS: Turn the CAPS key off - people will instantly become more receptive to what you have to say.

I can't believe, having missed the start of this post, I read this whole thing. I have never cared who believed what, or the reasons behind it. I stay away from organised religion, but have come to believe that a personal relationship with the God that I understand, needed no church with a lot of people in it so that's the way I live. I can offer no proof that God exists, at least none you could understand, and no proof based in fact, that he works in my life. But being a dumb human, I can understand, why we fall for the TRUTH, as put by others, and follow blindly to the point of being sheep for the shepherds who they follow with no questions asked. I can see where the suffering of others can be evidence, of there being no God. I can see through suffering, why you can be angry at God. That's humans for you. Blame God for not doing what we should be doing. That's easy, and leaves us humans blameless for our shortcomings. The God I understand gives us life and choices, the rest is up to us, what we do with free will, and it doesn't matter whether you believe in God or not, not one bit. What does matter is how you spend this short time on earth, and how you live your life. The rest is as personal as what kind of deodorant you use, as that is choice also. The truth is we don't know, none of us, and we believe what we believe. Not a big deal until you start telling me what I should believe, and dare to try and change me. That's why I just recognise the good in people, and if I can't, I just leave them alone to whatever choice they make. I have no proof that I'm right, but I have no proof your wrong either, so I hope you enjoy your choice as I do mine. But I must admit this relatively quiet, and thoughtful post, is a refreshing change from some of the other "organised ones", and is a great read.

Yeh, but no one said the loved me back :(

Awwwww poor Allheart... :)

Hi Jillean,

I do place empahsis on certain historical figures in whom I happen to agree with, I think what they have said is very relevant to the original question. Also, if one posts video's and website information to support their belief than so too shall I. Greg says so and so said this, I say so and so said this. I do not like the argument that many did it because of "social suicide", I could say they made the video up for money, I could say something about all of the points refuting the existence of God. It's great you have your beleifs and I do agree with your take on independent thinking, however, my historical references were in relation to perspective and to be viewed as a counter argument against many points within this thread.

I will sincerily apologize to anyone here that I may have offended or sounded smart with, was and is not my intention, sorry Greg. These religious posts always end up the same, although perhaps I contribute to that outcome:)

Caps On Is Not Me Yelling It's Me Not Turning Them Off...
If You Have A Heart You Are Concerned For People Without Them Asking You...
People Can Believe The Way They Want, They Are Going To Anyway...
One Of My Most Favorite People In The World Is An Atheist And I Hug Him Every Time I See Him And I Listen To His Veiws And He To Mine...
When He Is Gone I Would Have His Blood On My Hands If I Didn't At Least Try To Tell Him...
I Love Every Soul And Like God I Don't Want To See Them Perish...
I Have A Soft Spot For Kids And Worry A Great Deal For Them...
I Don't Like Being Attacked For My Opinion, I Haven't Attacked Anyone For There's , Only To You For The Personal Punch...
My Children Don't Even Behave In Some Of These Manners And Would Never Stop Someone's Letter From Getting To Them, That Was Where The Grow Up Remark Came From...

I can't believe, having missed the start of this post, I read this whole thing. I have never cared who believed what, or the reasons behind it. I stay away from organised religion, but have come to believe that a personal relationship with the God that I understand, needed no church with a lot of people in it so that's the way I live. I can offer no proof that God exists, at least none you could understand, and no proof based in fact, that he works in my life. But being a dumb human, I can understand, why we fall for the TRUTH, as put by others, and follow blindly to the point of being sheep for the shepherds who they follow with no questions asked. I can see where the suffering of others can be evidence, of there being no God. I can see thru suffering, why you can be angry at God. That's humans for you. Blame God for not doing what we should be doing. Thats easy, and leaves us humans blameless for our shortcomings. The God I understand gives us life and choices, the rest is up to us, what we do with free will, and it doesn't matter whether you believe in God or not, not one bit. What does matter is how you spend this short time on earth, and how you live your life. The rest is as personal as what kind of deodorant you use, as that is choice also. The truth is we don't know, none of us, and we believe what we believe. Not a big deal until you start telling me what I should believe, and dare to try and change me. That's why I just recognise the good in people, and if I can't, I just leave them alone to whatever choice they make. I have no proof that I'm right, but I have no proof your wrong either, so I hope you enjoy your choice as I do mine. But I must admit this relatively quiet, and thoughtful post, is a refreshing change from some of the other "organised ones", and is a great read.

Beautifully and eloquently said Tal.

Yeh, but no one said the loved me back :(

awwwww poor Allheart.... :)

I love you back, you front, and especially you heart, Feel better? :)

I love you back, you front, and especially you heart, Feel better?? :)


:D

Yes, I do feel better :)

Okay, you all may proceed now :)

(no mention of my feet - but I don't blame you :) -

Hi Jillean,

I do place empahsis on certain historical figures in whom I happen to agree with, I think what they have said is very relevent to the original question. Also, if one posts video's and website information to support their beleif than so too shall I. Greg says so and so said this, I say so and so said this. I do not like the argument that many did it b/c of "social suicide", I could say they made the video up for money, I could say something about all of the points refuting the existence of God. It's great you have your beleifs and I do agree with your take on independent thinking, however, my historical references were in relation to perspective and to be viewed as a counter argument against many points within this thread.

I will sincerily apologize to anyone here that I may have offended or sounded smart with, was and is not my intention, sorry Greg. These religious posts always end up the same, although perhaps I contribute to that outcome:)

To be fair, I have to admit I still haven't watched the video, so if I took your post wrong because of that, I'm really sorry. I seem to remember someone else (and I thought it was you) on another thread saying essentially that since Einstein was smart and he believed in god, we should all believe in god. I'm sorry if that wasn't you (I've been painting a lot... the fumes might be gettin' to me!), and even sorry-er if that's not your opinion!

Caps On Is Not Me Yelling It's Me Not Turning Them Off......

Sorry, but its been a long held convention of cyberspace and even print media that typing in all caps is considered yelling at people. When in Rome...


One Of My Most Favorite People In The World Is An Atheist And I Hug Him Every Time I See Him And I Listen To His Veiws And He To Mine.....
When He Is Gone I Would Have His Blood On My Hands If I Didn't At Least Try To Tell Him ......

If that's not one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard! You think you would be responsible for his death because you didn't try to convert him? I don't know how you can maintain a friendship with someone that you treat like that.



I Love Every Soul And Like God I Don't Want To See Them Perish......
I Have A Soft Spot For Kids And Worry A Great Deal For Them ......

No you don't, you just think you do. You mistake evangelizing for concern. You think imposing your own beliefs on people shows love for them. Sorry, lady, but that isn't the way it works. If you love someone you respect their beliefs, you don't keep trying to change them. And you don't try to frighten them with what you believe would be the consequences of them not believing with you.




I Don't Like Being Attacked For My Opinion, I Haven't Attacked Anyone For There's , Only To You For The Personal Punch.......
My Children Don't Even Behave In Some Of These Manners And Would Never Stop Someones Letter From Getting To Them, That Was Where The Grow Up Remark Came From......

You aren't being attacked for your opinion, that's part of what you just don't get. You are being attacked for trying to impose your opinion on others. And what "Personal Punch" are you referring to?

As for stopping someone's letter from getting to them, again you show that you don't understand or (more likely) refuse to understand what is being said to you. I assume you are referring to the other thread. But if you look at that other thread, you will see I didn't stop your first post and even complimented it. It was subsequent posts that attempted to impose your personal beliefs that I stifled. See unlike you, I did have a concern for the OP in that thread. I expressed my concern by advising her to make sure she was comfortable with her decision but offering advice on implementing her decision if she was sure about it.

But I don't want to hijack Greg's thread any further. If you want to discuss this further you are free to start a new discussion.

HOW IS IT RUDE TO BE CONCERNED FOR PEOPLE? LOOK AT OTHER COMMENTS SAYING THAT THERE IS NO GOD. YOUR TALKING ABOUT MY FRIEND. IF YOU BELEIVE SOMETHING AND ENTERTAIN THE FACT THAT IT IS NOT REAL THEN YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW FOR SURE IF YOU BELIEVE AND I KNOW. MY OPINION IS AS VALUEABLE AS ANY ONE ELSES, I'M JUST NOT ONE TO SAY WELL DUH MAYBE YOU'RE RIGHT OR MAYBE I'M RIGHT. I DON'T KNOW.
---------------------------------------------------
It is so common for people to show emotion in discussions about religion, it really doesn't help
if a people start getting really sarcastic, or angry. The discussion changes frequently but the topic remains the same. In my opinion"Your friend" does not exist. Now, it has effected my life on thousand levels and here is my most recent reason. I have a brother that is constantly borrowing money off me because he gives X amount of income to his church every month. That would be fine if it were going to a great car or a house payment or even an arcade for his basement. But, I feel I am giving money to the wealthiest being in the infinities, his
"imaginary friend".
There are a lot of other comments stating why people do believe, I do not respond by yelling with my CAPS on. The great thing about this topic is it brings up questions and answers. Maybe the answers are false, but to look at a provided link and not click it but argue its unseen contents is unfair. It seems to be the foundation that this room was built on. I should have named the room " What do you think of this? Zeitgeist - The Movie, 2007 (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/) " But I didn't. LOL

No worries Jillean.

By the way, I was not me who equated that because Einstein believed in God so should we all. I would have much to say about that idea rest assured:)

Hope everyone can learn a bit from these posts and keeping in the tradition with the site, I Love all too!! Just not as much on a Monday:)

Sorry, but its been a long held convention of cyberspace and even print media that typing in all caps is considered yelling at people. When in Rome...



If that's not one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard!! You think you would be responsible for his death because you didn't try to convert him? I don't know how you can maintain a friendship with someone that you treat like that.




No you don't, you just think you do. You mistake evangelizing for concern. You think imposing your own beliefs on people shows love for them. Sorry, lady, but that aint the way it works. If you love someone you respect their beliefs, you don't keep trying to change them. And you don't try to frighten them with what you believe would be the consequences of them not believing with you.





You aren't being attacked for your opinion, that's part of what you just don't get. You are being attacked for trying to impose your opinion on others. And what "Personal Punch" are you referring to?

As for stopping someone's letter from getting to them, again you show that you don't understand or (more likely) refuse to understand what is being said to you. I assume you are referring to the other thread. But if you look at that other thread, you will see I didn't stop your first post and even complimented it. It was subsequent posts that attempted to impose your personal beliefs that I stifled. See unlike you, I did have a concern for the OP in that thread. I expressed my concern by advising her to make sure she was comfortable with her decision but offering advice on implementing her decision if she was sure about it.

But I don't want to hijack Greg's thread any further. If you want to discuss this further you are free to start a new discussion.
--------------------------------------
No hijacking here... I enjoy reading all of your responses & opinions. Always calm and well collected! I WISH I WERE ALWAYS AS CALM!!

---------------------------------------------------
In my opinion"Your friend" does not exist. Now, it has effected my life on thousand levels and here is my most recent reason. I have a brother that is constantly borrowing money off of me because he gives X amount of income to his church every month. That would be fine if it were going to a great car or a house payment or even an arcade for his basement. But, I feel I am giving money to the wealthiest being in the infinities, his
"imaginary friend".


Hi again GQ - You have to remember that Church laws are made by who?? Man. And man is fallable. Not saying giving X amount is wrong, but Man no matter where is housed
can make mistakes or not use the best judgment.

What I am saying is that there is Church law which normally is derived by what man interprets to be God's law, but anytime man is involved, leave room for error.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever, and I almost shutter at saying this. I am Catholic and I love my religion, but church is people and people are not perfect.

So, how do you think I feel, when I walk in a beautiful church, stain glass windows, golden chalisis, and in my mind what do I see... starving people, starving children. Why can't mass be said in a building with chairs lights, AC and heat. And how do you think God sees that.

I love my relgion with all my heart because it works for me, but I also realize that all of us are imperfect and churches do no always reflect God's will 100%... they may try but of course with man involved...

Yeh, but no one said the loved me back :(

awwwww poor Allheart.... :)
----------------------------

I love you back! LOL

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I love you back!! LOL


Now we're cooking... :D

(and thanks :)

Hi again GQ - You have to remember that Church laws are made by who???? Man. And man is fallable. Not saying giving X amount is wrong, but Man no matter where is housed
can make mistakes or not use the best judgment.

What I am saying is that there is Church law which normally is derived by what man interprets to be God's law, but anytime man is involved, leave room for error.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever, and I almost shutter at saying this. I am Catholic and I love my religion, but church is people and people are not perfect.

So, how do you think I feel, when I walk in a beautiful church, stain glass windows, golden chalisis, and in my mind what do I see....starving people, starving children. Why can't mass be said in a building with chairs lights, AC and heat. And how do you think God sees that.

I love my relgion with all my heart because it works for me, but I also realize that all of us are imperfect and churches do no always refect God's will 100%...they may try but of course with man involved.....
__________________________________
__________________________________
Over my life time my Father has given $***,***. 00 to his belief. He never complains and has only made me aware of a % once while on the phone to my Aunt. Wouldn't it have been a great thing to have watched where every penny went or to been able to direct it himself?
My Dad told me when I was about 7yrs old, often (in Canada) groups of members would get together at various homes on Sunday and do their studies, singing, praying and teaching at no cost but a potluck style function. MMMMmmmmm, give me a time machine and I may reconsider my faith. Just Kidding!

---------------------------------------------------
It is so common for people to show emotion in discussions about religion, it really doesn't help
if a people start getting really sarcastic, or angry. The discussion changes frequently but the topic remains the same. In my opinion"Your friend" does not exist. Now, it has effected my life on thousand levels and here is my most recent reason. I have a brother that is constantly borrowing money off of me because he gives X amount of income to his church every month. That would be fine if it were going to a great car or a house payment or even an arcade for his basement. But, I feel I am giving money to the wealthiest being in the infinities, his
"imaginary friend".
There are a lot of other comments stating why people do believe, I do not respond by yelling with my CAPS on. The great thing about this topic is it brings up questions and answers. Maybe the answers are false, but to look at a provided link and not click it but argue its unseen contents is unfair. It seems to be the foundation that this room was built on. I should have named the room " What do you think of this? Zeitgeist - The Movie, 2007 (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/) " But I didn't. LOL
I acually have a great deal of respect for you. I just am strong in my beliefs and I am not doing my job as a christain worth a flip if I don't at least say what's on my heart. The money thing I can see how it's hard to understand , but just like everything else you need money to run it. A building cost money going to other countries to teach the word of god cost money and most churches have outreach programs and need money for that. I am saddend when I see a preacher driving a porche, so I know what you mean. But it would be awful if there were no churches to worship in and no way to feed the people in the cummunities because people would let go of there money. I don't always give my 10 because I don't always have it. But I'm glad to help our outreach program when I can with my money or my time. I haven't veiwed the site and I will to be fair but I wish I had a site for you to veiw. Because I can't help it, it's just all so scarry to me. Thanks

Yeh, but no one said the loved me back :(

awwwww poor Allheart.... :)


Snaps to allheart. You are sweet. Love you

Hey I really don't have time to watch the video. Could someone pleas break it down for me

If knowing that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and knowing in my heart that all other ways to heaven is wrong, if that is narroow minded or closed mind, thank God I am, since accepting any other belief will doom your soul.

All real Chrsitains by their very belief have to be closed minded. That does not mean we want to force others to worship our way, but it does not mean we would ever accept their beleifs as correct.

All real Chrsitains by thier very beleif have to be closed minded. Yea, that's pretty the problem.

Yea, that's pretty the problem.

Not a problem at all, knowing the truth is not a problem, are you not closed minded that the world is round? Since you know that is a fact, well we know that God is real, so denying that would be completely out of line, in fact it is the only reasonable choice.

And knowing one is right and not believing anyone else is not saying you can not either accept the fact they will worship different or not at all, or at worst ignore the fact they don't have your beleifs.

A christian that would say another form of worship or belief would save someone's soul is not a christian, since it goes against their very teachings. And standing up for ones christian beleifs is never wrong.

If knowing that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and knowing in my heart that all other ways to heaven is wrong, if that is narroow minded or closed mind, thank God I am, since accepting anyother beleif will doom your soul.

All real Chrsitains by thier very beleif have to be closed minded. That does not mean we want to force others to worship our way, but it does not mean we would ever accept thier beleifs as correct.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! That's my point I'm not saying you have to believe the way I do. But let me speak my peace just as any one does and it might be of some help you never know, there does however come a time that you have to just shake the dust off your feet and move on, but you have said this well my friend. Please help me in praying for these souls and may god bless you

Not a problem at all, knowing the truth is not a problem, are you not closed minded that the world is round ?? since you know that is a fact, well we know that God is real, so denying that would be completely out of line, in fact it is the only reasonable choice.

And knowing one is right and not beleiving anyone else is not saying you can not either accept the fact they will worship different or not at all, or at worst ignore the fact they don't have your beleifs.

A christian that would say another form of worship or beleif would save someones soul is not a christian, since it goes against thier very teachings. And standing up for ones christian beleifs is never wrong.


Hi Fr. Chuck,

I never really labeled myself other then Catholic. I have said many times that I believe all religions that love Our heavenly Father, are roads to God. I love God with all my heart and I don't think he cares what is stamped on our forehead. If a Protestant loves God with all their heart and does their best to stay in His light and do things according to His will
It is my belief that He goes into His loving arms.

Whenever I heard the term Christian, I always thought it was people who believe similar to what I do, but just aren't Catholic.

Someone had asked me if I were Christian and I truly didn't know. I love Jesus Christ and He is in my heart, does that make me a Christian? But if I believe that my Jewish neighbor loves God, and believe that he will receive God's mercy as well, does that make me not a Christian.

I guess I really only need to be referred to as a Child of God.

Sorry, I am just trying to work all this out.

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature.
-- Albert Einstein, The World as I See It

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

Sorry BMI since you put so much stock in Einstein then don't believe in God for he did not later on. You also don't know Mother Terasa at all. She was frustrated because her prays went unanaswered Read it. Some of the people responding here seem a bit close minded. I understand that because I was the same way when I was a christian.

workerbee

I too have cried when my prayers have gone unanswered and have later seen it was for my good.my kids don't alway's get what they want.but it is for there best also.


And please correct me if I'm wrong in all of his genuis was einstein considered crazy??

i acually have a great deal of respect for you. i just am strong in my beliefs and i am not doing my job as a christain worth a flip if i don't at least say whats on my heart. the money thing i can see how it's hard to understand , but just like everything else you need money to run it. a building cost money going to other countries to teach the word of god cost money and most churches have outreach programs and need money for that. i am saddend when i see a preacher driving a porche, so i know what you mean. but it would be awful if there were no churches to worship in and no way to feed the people in the cummunities because people would let go of there money. i don't always give my 10 because i don't always have it. but i'm glad to help our outreach program when i can with my money or my time. i haven't veiwed the site and i will to be fair but i wish i had a site for you to veiw. because i can't help it, it's just all so scarry to me. thanks
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_________________

It costs money to make money, and the Church's of the world certainly know that. I understand how it is scary even entertaining the thought of there not being a god. Our whole lives have had the imprint of "God" in almost every aspect. This is a quote I enjoy by Kahlil Gibran " Much of your pain is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self." So where do we go when the physician within us can not heal our hurting minds/bodies? The majority turn to their faith in God. When someone's child dies, it makes me happy to know that they may not go entirely insane because they believe their child is in a better place.
Or when a Jewish woman was standing in front of a gas chamber holding her daughters hand and said " Its OK, God is watching over us." I think that's a pretty good coping tool, kind of like an injured soldier having a few sticks of morphine on the battle field.
People are born into believing in their religions so they give up nothing in order to have something to pray to when little fluffy runs away from home. In my opinion, I believe people are giving up their sense of free will. They also lose some responsibility for themselves. Money (untaxed) that goes to the most profitable organizations in the free world that gets invested and sees huge profits returned.
They obtain an unnecessary sense of sin, obeying nonsensical dogma, the idea of a "All powerful being" type figure watching everything they do, and a false sense of hope. The threat of burning for eternity. Trusting faith above proved scientific methods.
I would die a thousand painful deaths for there to be a real God. But I tend to incline toward facts and the more likely than the impossible, maybe if religion was less destructive, unprincipled, doctored and decayed I would relax a little more and let my great grand kids deal with the inevitable problems religion brings.
I know I will get a few responses asking " How is religion destructive?" Later. I'm feeling a little A.D.D right now. LOL
They must find it difficult... Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority - G. Massey Egyptologist


hey i really dont have time to watch the video. could someone pleas break it down for me
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This film claims in layman's terms that the "Bible is nothing more than a Astrotheological literary hybrid"
"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally paid to the Sun." The first segment is actually quite short and that is the subject were all avoiding.
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I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature.
-- Albert Einstein, The World as I See It

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

Sorry BMI since you put so much stock in Einstein then don't believe in God for he did not later on. You also don't know Mother Terasa at all. She was frustrated becuase her prays went unanaswered Read it. some of the people responding here seem a bit close minded. I understand that because i was the same way when i was a christian.

workerbee

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I enjoyed reading your post. And I learnt something

OMG I knew that the bible and all that was just rubbish.
But just managed to watch all that zeitgeist just shows if people want you to believe something you will why with all that evidence about 9/11 do people still think it was bin laden?
As for a chip I isn't a dog neither are my children and I will never in my life have that.
Great to watch and I will be telling everyone else to watch it

I want to see that video but it is streaming video and with a modem well... I have written to them about downloading I am having problems downloading will keep trying If anyone has and ideas let me know. Thanks


workerbee

why with all that evidence about 9/11 do people still think it was bin laden?

I didn't watch the whole thing, so I didn't get to the 9/11 part. But if it was presenting evidence that it wasn't an al Qaeda operation, then that negates it even further in my view. There is more than enough evidence that links Al Qaeda to the 9/11 attacks and Bin Laden has taken credit for them.

Bin laden will take credit for it something he wanted to maybe do of course he is going to hold his hands up and say it was me.

Why not watch it all then

Also not being American and not living there does not directly effect me and neither did 9/11 but if you agree with your government killing inocent people for there gain you believe what you want

Bin laden taking credit for it is just one of the pieces of evidence. There is a lot more. I suggest you read more of both sides before believing some conspiracy theorist.

The second segment was good, it raises a lot of undisputed questions but still can come off as right wing Conspiracy theory but undeniably the government is hiding something massive. If anyone ever gets a chance to look more into the London bombings there is far more evidence including agents who came forward.The third segment is about the world bank, the north American union and some really scary truths. And was the most shocking part of the movie.

This is for Workerbee -

You needn't waste your time finding quotes by Einstein and posting them here in order to TRY and prove me wrong. ONCE AGAIN (last time), YOU are not seeing the meaning behind the words in anything you post, AGAIN I mentioned this before, you see what you do based on your beleifs. Of course Mother Teresa is appearing in the form she is to you based on what you believe, which is that no God exists.

Also, what on earth do you know about Mother Teresa pray tell?? Read an article did you? Don't presume to tell people what they do and don't know about unless you are an expert in the field (I'll walk out on a limb here and suggest your not). Strikes me as funny that you chose Einstien to question what I was writing, IF you had read what I said than you would know that Einstein was not the main figure in the argument. Furthermore, I do believe that what he wrote would still indicate a belief in something greater thanhimself, I think you misinterpret what he is saying to conform to your own beleifs (more likely to conform to your argument actually).

IF I were to give any merit to your argument, which I don't, you would still have to research the others I mentioned, or perhaps you did? Please don't try and sway the argument by basing it on things you can find and play with while ignoring other points as well.

Finally, Mother Teresa spoke of her beginning her journey because she was visited/spoken to by God. Lets look at that and TRY to intepret what she might have been faced with. She goes to sleep and is visited by God (or so she beleives) he tells her what he wants from her. She drops her entire life and does what she is told and begins her life as one of the most compassionate and caring women the world has ever known. Over the course of her years she does indeed feel alone and abandoned by whom she thought visited her in her dream. IF one were to have experienced what she had would you not think it normal to feel like this? If God spoke to me today and said BMI, close your business and go help the poor, do it for me. I go, I leave everything behind, I imagine whether I am doing the right thing, am I crazy? Was it God? Imagine having to live with that, of course she would wonder and feel abandoned, if only because she was so close to God(the dream, the fact God chose her) that not experiencing it again was devastating.

I'm not sure this is very clear to be honest with you, it's the best I can do right now. I think you are taking what she is saying and applying it to her not believing in God, which is not true. In fact, to myself and some beleivers, her story is a testament to enduring faith. Her legacy is that of compassion and love, I do believe she would attribute that to the dream she had, if she had no dream would we have ever known of her? I wonder.

I want to see that video but it is streaming video and with a modem well..... i have written to them about downloading I am having problems downloading will keep trying If anyone has and ideas let me know. Thanks


workerbee
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Most Viewed (http://www12.alluc.org/alluc/no_cache/toplinks.html)
Go into here, it has just about every documentary ever made.
Click on Documentary (AT the top right of the screen)... then search Z for zeitgeist. Its like a you tube link and buffers fast and should come as the whole film.

This is for Workerbee -

You needn't waste your time finding quotes by Einstein and posting them here in order to TRY and prove me wrong. ONCE AGAIN (last time), YOU are not seeing the meaning behind the words in anything you post, AGAIN I mentioned this before, you see what you do based on your beleifs. Of course Mother Teresa is appearing in the form she is to you based on what you beleive, which is that no God exists.

Also, what on earth do you know about Mother Teresa pray tell???? Read an article did you? Don't presume to tell people what they do and don't know about unless you are an expert in the field (i'll walk out on a limb here and suggest your not). Strikes me as funny that you chose Einstien to question what I was writing, IF you had read what I said than you would know that Einstein was not the main figure in the argument. Furthermore, I do beleive that what he wrote would still indicate a beleif in something greater thanhimself, I think you misinterpret what he is saying to conform to your own beleifs (more likely to conform to your argument actually).

IF I were to give any merit to your argument, which I don't, you would still have to research the others I mentioned, or perhaps you did? Please don't try and sway the argument by basing it on things you can find and play with while ignoring other points as well.

Finally, Mother Teresa spoke of her beginning her journey because she was visited/spoken to by God. Lets look at that and TRY to intepret what she might have been faced with. She goes to sleep and is visited by God (or so she beleives) he tells her what he wants from her. She drops her entire life and does what she is told and begins her life as one of the most compassionate and caring women the world has ever known. Over the course of her years she does indeed feel alone and abandoned by whom she thought visited her in her dream. IF one were to have experienced what she had would you not think it normal to feel like this? If God spoke to me today and said BMI, close your business and go help the poor, do it for me. I go, i leave everything behind, I imagine whether I am doing the right thing, am I crazy? was it God? Imagine having to live with that, of course she would wonder and feel abandoned, if only b/c she was so close to God(the dream, the fact God chose her) that not experiencing it again was devastating.

I'm not sure this is very clear to be honest with you, its the best i can do right now. I think you are taking what she is saying and applying it to her not beleiving in God, which is not true. In fact, to myself and some beleivers, her story is a testament to enduring faith. Her legacy is that of compassion and love, I do beleive she would attribute that to the dream she had, if she had no dream would we have ever known of her? I wonder.
---------------------------------

And what is your interpretation of what Einstein said?

Would you like an interpretation of every person I mentioned earlier as well? I gave my account for Mother Teresa, I'm not going to interpret that particular phrase for Einstein as I could easily post quotes from him saying he does indeed believe in a God, actually anyone can see but perhaps not agree that even this quote suggests he believes in something bigger than himself. Nature, again, in historical thought, is believed to be one with God, the essence that is. Einstein believed in the laws and nature of the world, gravity keeps us here, etc. He could not explain these things through science (none can or have) and so that was his basis (in very,very basic form) for his belief in something that may have created these laws of nature.

It also must be said that I have no idea how it was perceived that I am some type of expert on Einstein, in fact, I know a lot more about the idea of God through Plato's works as well as Socrates. It was Workerbee's assumption and misinterpretation of what I wrote that brought on this Einstein business. I've done my best to explain the theory of what is being said, sure you can pick at it, go ahead. Although, remember, as a beleiver I would be more likely to think you misinterpret a lot of what is being said based on that fact, you don't believe. Alternatively, you may think I'm out to lunch on a lot of what I speak of because of the fact I believe and you do not.

Bin laden taking credit for it is just one of the pieces of evidence. There is a lot more. I suggest you read more of both sides before believing some conspiracy theorist.
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There is evidence following 9/11 that Bin laden denied he ever orchestrated the attacks.
He was also used as a scape goat for many other "red flag" type ops. There is no doubt he had ties to the CIA, and many more unanswered coincidences.
But you are right, we don't know anything for sure. I do hope one day we get to the bottom of this, especially the pentagon questions. I remember the speculation being so high that they decided to release a tape of a plane going into it. LOL, there was no plane. Why did they not release the video from the gas station that was pointing at the pentagon? Its funny America can't get water to New Orleans or fighter jets to a city, but the FBI were @ that gas station within minutes of the pentagon attack retrieving the real video, and are now keeping it in their closet. The America elect love to spread fear and give motive for their lovely peace work in Iraq, so why keep your approval ratings down? Release the video! They also cleaned up the lawn as fast as they could then had trucks come in and cover up any remaining evidence with landscape asap Etc... And how did building 7 get pulled? It does go on and on and on. I take conspiracies with a full tablespoon of salt. But when the shoe doesn't fit but it has your full name on it I'm going to ask questions. When my X cheated on me something wasn't adding up, I asked a question and got a lie, I asked another and I got no answer. I asked to see her phone and she refused, all answerable questions with no answers she committed a terrorist attack on our relationship. I dumped her and elected a honest hot blond to be the new president of Greg.

Lol... new president of Greg... I like that.

I agree with the Americans covering up 9/11, although I don't think the comparison to whether a God exists is the same thing. Same basis, different take altogether.

Do you guys really think that "elite" people(s) of the world are privy to all the mysteries in the world? That's the problemwith conspiracy theories and the like, SOMEBODY has to know something, I doubt ANY human being has or ever has had direct knowledge, evidence, proof that God does or does not exist. DO the Americans know the truth behind 9/11, I think so, do they know who killed Kennedy, probably. Does George W, in his teeny tiny head know that God does or does not exist based on information only he and a secret few are privy to, I highly doubt it. Same goes for Area 51 and all that jazz, do they know of life on other planets,do they know the history of Earth and the origins of man? Do they have information pertaining to that,information we don't have, again, I doubt it.

Would you like an interpretation of every person I mentioned earlier as well? I gave my account for Mother Teresa, I'm not going to interpret that particular phrase for Einstein as I could easily post quotes from him saying he does indeed believe in a God, actually anyone can see but perhaps not agree that even this quote suggests he believes in something bigger than himself. Nature, again, in historical thought, is believed to be one with God, the essence that is. Einstein believed in the laws and nature of the world, gravity keeps us here, etc. He could not explain these things through science (none can or have) and so that was his basis (in very,very basic form) for his belief in something that may have created these laws of nature.

It also must be said that I have no idea how it was perceived that I am some type of expert on Einstein, in fact, I know a lot more about the idea of God through Plato's works as well as Socrates. It was Workerbee's assumption and misinterpretation of what I wrote that brought on this Einstein business. I've done my best to explain the theory of what is being said, sure you can pick at it, go ahead.
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I've enjoyed your comments in the room, if everybody agreed it would be too much like church. Worker Bee only corrected a statement you made you seem to agree with regards to Mother Theressa. I'm sure having seen what she saw she questioned her faith at points. But, its all irrelevant speculated history anyway.

Although, remember, as a beleiver I would be more likely to think you misinterpret a lot of what is being said based on that fact, you don't believe. Alternatively, you may think I'm out to lunch on a lot of what I speak of because of the fact I believe and you do not. If this were true you would have to be speaking another language, I have the ability to understand logic. If you have the ability to communicate using logical sentences then we can have a conversation. This is not the Bible, I think misinterpretations are more led by the writer and not so much the reader. Debate is welcome here, arguing is not. Arguing gets threads closed, and I'm enjoying my office coffees far too much now to have this conversation end due to temperament.

I doubt ANY human being has or ever has had direct knowledge, evidence, proof that God does or does not exist.
That is what is so compelling about zeitgeist, it really brings that to question. For some it brings more.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember the speculation being so high that they decided to release a tape of a plane going into it. LOL, there was no plane.

Not to turn this into a 9/11 debate or anything, but I personally know someone who was on 395 when the plane hit - he saw it fly past his window. There was a plane.

And by temperament you are suggesting mine correct?

1. Workerbee need not correct my statement for no error exists within it, if a misunderstanding occurred than fine.

2. I disagree with the misinterpretation caused by the writer, the writer would be more likely to understand what he/she is writing, the reader less likely to comprehend based on perspective. If clarification is in order, than so be it.

The rest I agree with:P

BMI, iwas just trying to tell you that einstein was not a believer, that's all. The Mother terasa thing was on TV when it came out. That's where I heard those things but you know better than her preist friend, incredible. If you can put a spin on those quotes then there is no hope for you. Your mind is blocked. Einstein says in one quote that he does not blieve in a personal God. How much plainer can you make it. You wrote "Strikes me as funny that you chose Einstien to question what I was writing" I think you brought him up in the first place. As far as proving God is concerned you close yourself to that as well. You have to base belief on something Without any proof come problems that's how religions like scientology get started. No proof needed but many believe it. I don't care what you want to believe just trying to set the record straight

workerbee

So workerbee, essentially you took what I wrote about you and spun it in your own words and shot I back at me?

First off you are incorrect about Einstein, that's all. The comment about Mother Teresa's priest friend is absurd, keep watching t.v, your gaining quite the belief because of it. By theway, did you read what I wrote? I get the nagging suspicion you fast read and pick out what you like but you don't really read everything being said. If that's the case you should not even be writing here.

In response to the "open/closed mind argument" that's really a bunch of rubbish to be used when you have no further points to be made. Like Fr. Chuck said earlier, to believe in something a close mind will always exist, its a lot different than no respecting one's views. I believe in hell, I believe that if you do not believe in God you get what you believe, and that is no afterlife, nothing. So yes I am closed minded in some regards relating to my belief but then again who isn't?? I don't tell you to believe because my belief says you will get what you believe, I don't feel sorry for those who don't believe, it's their life. All of this back and forth is based on something entirely different.

Trying to prove what cannot be comprehended by man is foolishness, you obviously don't subscribe to faith, great! Hope it works out for you. Don't expect people to be able to prove that which cannot be proved and then continue playing that card as a defence or for any other reason.

"But throughout his life, Einstein was consistent in rejecting the charge that he was an atheist. "There are people who say there is no God," he told a friend. "But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." And unlike Sigmund Freud or Bertrand Russell or George Bernard Shaw, Einstein never felt the urge to denigrate those who believed in God; instead, he tended to denigrate atheists. "What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos," he explained." - TIME 2007

"In fact, Einstein tended to be more critical of debunkers, who seemed to lack humility or a sense of awe, than of the faithful. "The fanatical atheists," he wrote in a letter, "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who--in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'-- cannot hear the music of the spheres." - TIME 2007

"For some people, miracles serve as evidence of God's existence. For Einstein it was the absence of miracles that reflected divine providence. The fact that the world was comprehensible, that it followed laws, was worthy of awe." - TIME 2007

Also, in further response to being open minded. So far as I can tell workerbee, your arguments are based on a T.V show of Mother Teresa, googling an Einstein passage, and watching a 2 hour video posted here! If that's your view of things than close your mind just a bit as it seems you are very impressioned with whatever it is you see at the time.

Delete/disagree at will.

My views on this are as follows I am not that great with words so please bear with me
What zeitgeist is trying to get across is that we believe what people want us to believe
Such as there is a god and jesus how do we really know he is there have you seen him yourself
9/11 was just terrible but the american government wouldnever do something like that to its own people would it
The wall street crash was that all it was made out to be
The world is all about control the government,church even the media all make you believe these things are real they get it in your head and in the end you believe but then you think you made that decision yourself when in fact they controlled you they told you things put things in place to make you believe.
Like the church in the beginning of zeitgeist it makes a joke god needs money he does not need money he is not there the church wants your money so they can live a life of luxuary whilst you work your butt off for them why because youy believe evrything they tell you.
Why do you believe because if the bloke at the front of the church is right and you do not believe you will burn in hell so you best not take that chance.
Its all brain washing never did believe never will believe when I am dead I am dead

The thing that has always stuck in my craw was the pomp, ceremony and traditions that organised religion attaches to itself and the self righteous way they can put forth there "truth" as absolute and unbending. That fire and brimstone is so self serving and consider even with the great works many churches do, is so wholly inadequate when compared to the real needs of those it purports to serve. Not saying all, bit there are enough, to tell me to leave those folks alone, as I cannot change them. Yes many are closed minded, that's there choice, and has not a darn thing to do with me and mine. Live and let live and if you see me in hell, I'm going to laugh my butt off. But if we meet in the line to heaven, I will still consider letting you have a cut in front of me. That's the kind of human I am.

The thing that has always stuck in my craw was the pomp, ceremony and traditions that organised religion attaches to itself and the self righteous way they can put forth there "truth" as absolute and unbending. That fire and brimstone is so self serving and consider even with the great works many churches do, is so wholly inadequate when compared to the real need s of those it purports to serve. Not saying all, bit there are enough, to tell me to leave those folks alone, as I cannot change them. Yes many are closed minded, that's there choice, and has not a darn thing to do with me and mine. Live and let live and if you see me in hell, I'm gonna laugh my butt off. But if we meet in the line to heaven, I will still consider letting you have a cut in front of me. That's the kind of human I am.
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I'll be the one to cut in front, I'll also be wearing a mask so as "God'' does not recognize me. :D

My views on this are as follows i am not that great with words so please bear with me
What zeitgeist is trying to get across is that we beleive what people want us to beleive
Such as there is a god and jesus how do we really know he is there have you seen him youself
9/11 was just terrible but the american goverment wouldnever do something like that to its own people would it
The wall street crash was that all it was made out to be
The world is all about control the goverment,church even the media all make you believe these things are real they get it in your head and in the end you believe but then you think you made that decision yourself when infact they controlled you they told you things put things in place to make you beleive.
Like the church in the beginning of zeitgeist it makes a joke god needs money he does not need money he is not there the church wants your money so they can live a life of luxuary whilst you work your butt off for them why because youy belive evrything they tell you.
Why do you believe because if the bloke at the front of the church is right and you do not believe you will burn in hell so you best not take that chance.
Its all brain washing never did believe never will belive when i am dead i am dead
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It is so much like the Matrix,:eek: except I can't shut it off.

I'm an atheist and have been since I was very young. I always had a great argument due to being brought up in a religious home, but never had the answer as to how religion came into play. My friend brought this video over to my house and it seemed a little boring at first, then about ten minutes into it, I realized this may very well be the answer to my question!! I've researched arguments against the facts here and have found none that out weigh the obvious. The thing is, I'm shocked at how it was in my face and every ones face all this time. Please watch this segment and tell me what you think and if you can see another truth. Best regards, Greg Q

Zeitgeist - The Movie, 2007 (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/)
I strongly suggest you watch this video that refutes the false claims by zeitgest YouTube - Zeitgeist | The Response (Part 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juKFSlQWojs) then do your own diligent research.

I strongly suggest you watch this video that refutes the false claims by zeitgest YouTube - Zeitgeist | The Response (Part 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juKFSlQWojs) then do your own diligent research.
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Awesome, thanks for the link. I've already watched a little of it and I have read a few of those arguments before. I wish they had posted links as to where they obtain their information, it would be much easier to research each question. Where did you go to prove it was false? I've been going to forums mostly.

BMI. This is getting boring. I want to respond more but what' s the point?
Greg I went to the library and saw the film, this is compelling but is true?

workerbee

I agree workerbee, quit while your only this far behind.

I think I am way ahead. I guess we have different measuring sticks Huh?

workerbee

Perhaps we do, mine's brand new, the steel one's with all the conversions. Yours must be the one's my dad breaks up to use as poles for the tomatoes:)

All right, I'm done... seriously, no more. Workerbee, hopefully we can war on another topic or dare I suggest... agree?? Let's move on from this thread, it has enough pages to keep all those interested busy for a while, kind of like a bee.

K, with a joke that bad I seriously am out.

BMI. this is getting boring. I want to respond more but what' s the point?
Greg i went to the library and saw the film, this is compelling but is true?

workerbee
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I'm not sure, I know there are some pretty amazing coincidences. I'm also seeing arguments that sway either way in other forums.
I've been trying to find a better copy of "The response" to burn and share with a few of my student friends.
Its hard to find time to research old historical truths, misleads & misinterpretations when life is so busy with other things. I've certainly made it half of my computer time, but... I seem to always get side tracked finding unrelated stories that might have been relative to the questions (a lot of wasted reading). I keep a paper and pen + I keep Word open, but mostly I only have questions written down. I also went into your posted link and found the prayer argument to be entertaining. I'm praying for an amputee right now, I hope you are too.

You guys and your little sticks.

Greg, it might interest you to know that I asked about Zeitgiest on another forum, the response from one who said he had met the women who worked on the first part but wanted to make it clear that she had nothing to do with the second and third parts.
He also said the second part was proposterous, I asked why here is his answer hope you find it interesting: "A few years ago, Popular Mechanics put together a team of top engineers and scientists to go over every single point that the conspiracy theorists brought up. In nearly every instance they found that the theories were based on ridiculous ideas of normal physics, misinterpretations of evidence, or outright lies. Most of these were so obvious that they were laughable, like the shadow that the right engine cast on the wheelwell of one of the planes being seen as a missile strapped to the fuselage. The conspiracy nuts point to one blurry frame of video which sort of looks like that, but when you see the moving video in context it's blatently obvious what's really happening."

I never knew any of this it goes to show that these conspiracy nuts should not be believed
To easily. Years ago a friend who was a born again Christian told me about a conspiracy book that she thought was incredible. Well, none of the predictions came true. In the film it says that by May 2008 we (I guess Americans) will be required to have an ID card. I am willing to bet it won't happen.


workerbee
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It already required, if you drive, or vote, or cash a check, or use a credit card, but a house, or car, rent an apartment, fly in a plane..!

Greg, it might interest you to know that i asked about Zeitgiest on another forum, the response from one who said he had met the women who worked on the first part but wanted to make it clear that she had nothing to do with the second and third parts.
He also said the second part was proposterous, I asked why here is his answer hope you find it interesting: "A few years ago, Popular Mechanics put together a team of top engineers and scientists to go over every single point that the conspiracy theorists brought up. In nearly every instance they found that the theories were based on ridiculous ideas of normal physics, misinterpretations of evidence, or outright lies. Most of these were so obvious that they were laughable, like the shadow that the right engine cast on the wheelwell of one of the planes being seen as a missile strapped to the fuselage. The conspiracy nuts point to one blurry frame of video which sort of looks like that, but when you see the moving video in context it's blatently obvious what's really happening."

I never knew any of this it goes to show that these conspiracy nuts should not be believed
to easily. years ago a friend who was a born again Christian told me about a conspiracy book that she thought was incredible. Well, none of the predictions came true. In the film it says that by May 2008 we (I guess Americans) will be required to have an ID card. I am willing to bet it won't happen.


workerbee
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I saw the same article; it was also on a TV program (can't remember which one). It was very interesting, and the creators of the film were on the program recanting some of their "facts". I remember especially the "Building Engineer" in the film... he was, in reality, a construction worker. Maybe that's like calling garbage men "Sanitation Specialists"...

I think a lot of people who think the government is capable of such things think our government is a lot more put together than they actually are. Move to DC; you'll learn! :)

It already required, if you drive, or vote, or cash a check, or use a credit card, but a house, or car, rent an apartment, fly in a plane........................!!!!!!!!!
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Basically live.
Alex Jones Predicts 911 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5794811205820750959)
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Personally,

I don't think I would survive very well here without believing in the Love of God.
I just really wouldn't it would be so hard for me to handle a great deal of things.

But as I cherish my faith, I also cherish whatever is or is not in your heart. All of you are individuals, with many wonderful gifts, talents, blessings and are entitilted to whatever is in your heart.

Acceptance is an act of love and helps for each of us to grow and share in what we believe.

Personally,

I don't think I would survive very well here without believing in the Love of God.
I just really wouldn't it would be so hard for me to handle a great deal of things.

But as I cherish my faith, I also cherish whatever is or is not in your heart. All of you are individuals, with many wonderful gifts, talents, blessings and are entitilted to whatever is in your heart.

Acceptance is an act of love and helps for each of us to grow and share in what we beleive.

I really like what you say here, Allheart! :)

It already required, if you drive, or vote, or cash a check, or use a credit card, but a house, or car, rent an apartment, fly in a plane........................!!!!!!!!!

Would you be more specific I don't think we have anything like the movie suggests

By the way there are many parts of the movie that are good, the main problems are with only the second part Here is the link someone gave to me.
Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - Popular Mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html)

workerbee

We already have mandatory ID cards, as it is impossible to do anything with out it in America. As for all the conspiracy theories, and there are many out there, you can spin evidence any way you want. For my part, I don't know, nor care, as it was done by some idiots, who didn't care for life, to make a statement. Gee whiz, there still talking about the Kennedy assassination, and that was a long time ago, and we are no closer to the truth now, as we were then.

Workerbee,

The main problems of the movie are most definitely not just the second part. In fact, what brought on all the debunkers was the first part of the movie, y'know the one about God. Perhaps you meant to say that you saw the second part as less convincing than the others, but surely to the public that is not the consensus.

I also, as usual, must disagree with saying many parts of the movie are good. The producer was questioned about the inaccuracies the movie made and, when pressed, stated that the movie was not to be "taken as truth".

I assume we are talking about the movie that started this thread and not the one you watched on 9/11. If not than disregard this entry, although I do agree with T-man with respects to 9/11 and other conspiracy theories.

Of course you find it appealing…you are an Atheist. Had you told me you were an avid believer in Jesus Christ and the movie changed your mind your opinion would carry more weight.

But did you read the viewer comments about the film?

talaniman, the card they are talking aboutis more than that I think it would have all of your info on it but I may be mistaken as far as a computer chip in us well some of that won't be bad You can locate missng persons, kidnappings, and other crimes would be a thing of the past


No I did not read the comments. There are many acurate parts in the first sections likeall of the virgin births predating christ. I already knew about those but to me that means something I know it does not prove anything either way. More than just a coincidence IMO.

Dark crow, In case you missed it I was a Christian for many years. I did not change because of this movie. I jumped ship many years ago.

workerbee

You are correct as technology has enabled them to have a card with your medical info, just an upgrade of what we have now.