Hello:

I'm sometimes rather slow. Even though there's this thing called religion out there, I STILL thought you religious folk's were similar to me... But, I come to find out that we're not really in the same ballpark - and maybe not on the same planet. That surprises me at my ripe old age.

My question is thus: I think we inherently understand right from wrong WITHOUT religion. I always thought religious people thought the same way... But, noooooo.

You people think that we'd still be robbing and raping and killing each other if religion didn't teach you that doing that stuff is wrong.

Is that really true? You'd be doing bad stuff IF you didn't have your church to tell you otherwise?? Really??

excon

But why do you understand right from wrong ?

1. teachings of your parents
2. teachings at school
3. rules at work
4 and your favorite, laws of our government

So if you were raised in a culture where it was OK, to kill the other polictical party, then there is no wrong to you to do that.

If you were raised in a culture where you could kill and eat the neighboring tribe people, then that is not wrong to you.

America as we know it, ( regardless of the cries that it is not ) was formed basically by religious people and often it was society moving into an area that was "wild" that brought more organised religion and with it, the morals.

Why don't you throw down the next pretty girl you meet and have sex with her ( beyond our ages excon) who is telling you it is wrong. There is a moral code that tells us we can not act on our animal instints.

I mean I would love to go about two houses down from me and blow those people away, they have a crack house going. No real lost to society if they were wiped off the face of the earth to me. And I believe I could most likely do it and get away with it. So it is not really the laws and criminal issues, it is the moral issue that says I can not just kill someone.

the fact is, regardless if you believe in religion or not, you have been indoctrined into a religious moral code by just living in most of society in the US.

Now tha society is getting less and less moral as time goes by, And as it does, we will see those that have less built in values that tell them right and wrong.

Well said...

Hello Padre:

That's today. I certainly get that my upbringing stems from religion. But, civilization and our concept of God is only about 5,000 years old. We, as modern humans, are 150,000 years old.

My question is about the people who were hanging around just before they found out about God, let's say 10,000 years ago. Did those people know right from wrong?

Or do you think we just got started around 5,000 years ago? That would certainly offer a convenient answer.

excon

Hello Padre:

That's today. I certainly get that my upbringing stems from religion. But, civilization and our concept of God is only about 5,000 years old. We, as modern humans, are 150,000 years old.

My question is about the people who were hanging around just before they found out about God, let's say 10,000 years ago. Did those people know right from wrong?

Or do you think we just got started around 5,000 years ago? That would certainly offer a convenient answer.

excon

So-----, if you believe that man has a 150,000 year history, how can you know what morals (or lack thereof) they may have had back then? We have modern history of tribes practicing cannibalism and other things not considered moral by most people. The point is that humans do not have any "instinct" for right and wrong. Conscience is a child of training. Not too long ago, slavery was considered as perfectly acceptable. It took some teaching to change that, and most of the impetus in the Western world came from Christian religion, as opposed to, say, Druidism.

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?

From CS Lewis "Mere Christianity" former atheist , Christian Apologist.

Ex Con , he agrees with you about an inherent "moral law."

I know this is addressed to the religious but I'm going to counter point because well just because.

The church gets it's moral laws from society, not the other way around. Hence why the laws of the church have changed over time, if the laws were dictated by god, they would never change and the church would still find it perfectly acceptable to have slaves and such. Even laws such as thou shalt not kill, the church finds it acceptable when society feels it is acceptable such as a soldier killing an enemy or a man protecting his family from an attacker.

All creatures have acceptable ways that they are expected to act around each other. Evolution gives us that. If any creature that required sexual reproduction killed every member of it's species that it came in contact with it would die off and not reproduce and the genes that cause it to do that would die off as well. Humans just make thinks more complicated cause we have big brains and time to spend thinking about these things.

excon
Secularism and religion are not mutually exclusive of each other; the interplay of religion and politics has been and remains a constant. There is no way to separate secular and religious values.

There is no way to separate secular and religious values.Hello again, DC:

Even though the people I'm talking about had NO religious values - because they were around before religion??

Okee doakee.

excon

You people think that we'd still be robbing and raping and killing each other if religion didn't teach you that doin that stuff is wrong.

Is that really true? You'd be doing bad stuff IF you didn't have your church to tell you otherwise???? Really???

excon



The point is that humans do not have any "instinct" for right and wrong.

More of a fear of the consequences for one's actions that govern behavior. Since church, morals, and laws of society are intertwined many people may believe the Church to be responsible while others place the credit elsewhere.

So, in the absence of those constructs our society would be vastly different. It takes a consensus determinantion of acceptability and society finds it convenient to place the policing of that consensus under a central authority...

Though it can have positive outcomes there also can be many negative outcomes considering such events as the Salem Witch Trials and/or The Holocaust

The church gets it's moral laws from society, not the other way around. Hence why the laws of the church have changed over time, if the laws were dictated by god, they would never change and the church would still find it perfectly acceptable to have slaves and such. Even laws such as thou shalt not kill, the church finds it acceptable when society feels it is acceptable such as a soldier killing an enemy or a man protecting his family from an attacker.

All creatures have acceptable ways that they are expected to act around each other. Evolution gives us that. If any creature that required sexual reproduction killed every member of it's species that it came in contact with it would die off and not reproduce and the genes that cause it to do that would die off as well. Humans just make thinks more complicated cause we have big brains and time to spend thinking about these things.My name is NK and I endorse this point of view.

Excon
As far back as 10 thousand B.C.E. history is abundant with carvings and writings reflecting people's respect and adoration for the Sun. The early civilizations personified the Sun and the Stars and created elaborate myths about this solar messiah the (Horus) SUN and his enemy known as Set and Set was the personification of the darkness or night. Coming from the concept of "dark vs. light" or "good vs. evil" is one of the most wide-spread mythological dualities ever known. If we are going to speculate beyond what is known it sounds more probable that myth has been with us from the very beginning of the evolution of man.

Hello again, DC:

Even though the people I'm talking about had NO religious values - because they were around before religion???

Okee doakee.

excon

Hey Excon,

Why do you assume that religion wasn't practiced among the first humans?
As I believe humans have known the Almighty from the first human,things just got distorted along the way and different people took on different practices and beliefs got mixed up with falsehood.

Why do you think the basic commandments are reflected in most religions the same?Coincidence? I don't think so... it is from the same source.

Humans have a way of distorting facts to fit their own views and as people spread around the earth and started their own tribes,towns,nations and continents the struggles for power have made them use whatever methods they could to control their own people into willingly or unwillingly follow their mixed up views,forgetting that the laws and morals are not to be judged on earth by humans alone but by a much higher source, from where the morals were first sent down.

As a believer I am sure my views differ from many others,but I stand by what I say that humans knew the morals from their very first step on earth... but then who can prove one or another for a non believer to accept it as fact.

:)

As a believer I am sure my views differ from many others,but I stand by what I say that humans knew the morals from their very first step on earth.....but then who can prove one or another for a non believer to accept it as fact.So how would you explain how many non-believers have the same or better morals?

So how would you explain how many non-believers have the same or better morals?

Hey NK,

I know this is not going to be proof enough for you,but I will explain our belief on this matter.
We believe that the Almighty drew forth from the loins of the children of Adam, their descendants and then made them testify concerning themselves. (Saying): 'Am I not your Lord' They said, 'Yes, we testify to it.'Hence each soul is aware of their creator on some level and aware of the moral laws which we are supposed to follow.

So whether we are believers or not,it is within us to follow or not.

So how would you explain how many non-believers have the same or better morals?


Now who is judging who?

And whose "morals" are you judging by? :confused:

Now who is judging who?

And whose "morals" are you judging by? :confused:Not judging, just responding to this post (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religious-discussions/help-me-out-here-171235-2.html#post842149).

So once all the Christian churches accept homosexuality do you think they will come back and say that they were moral leaders that tried to get equal rights for all people regardless of sexual preference or do you think they will come back and say they were wrong and that the morals of society were right?

Of course the church will be able to say they tried to protect the equal rights of people regardless of sexual preference... if they feel that it is to their benefit to say it... look at the cover-up with the priests and their preferences... that policy lasted for years...

Which reenforces excon's point, the non churched can tell right from wrong.

And the Church in the priest case is and was wrong. It does not diminish the message of the Bible, "for all have sinned..."

'if they feel that it is to their benefit to say it'... that is a distinction that seems hypocritical with the church... Jesus even condemned the scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites, so I guess not much has changed.

Hello All... I'm new to this thread...

Personally, I don't believe that a person should "be religious," rather, I believe they should be honest.

Honest with themselves and their conscience (yes, I anticipate answers along the lines of "what dictates a person's conscience but their upbringing/moral code/value system," but please hear me out.)

I tend to agree with excon in his assumption that we are born with an inherent knowledge of right and wrong. Anyone that has ever had a baby or babysat one can testify that babies know when they are doing something wrong... it's that little glimmer of "try and stop me" that shines in their eyes... They know what NO means... and they choose to test the boundaries, very early on in life.

I don't think church/religion is necessary to live a moral life. I think it is definitely a catalyst through which a person learns more about right and wrong, but I do not think it is the only way a person can learn what is right. Mind you, I am one of those lifers at church - I started going to church (and a private religious school) when I was 5, have attended church ever since, and will continue to do so. But I believe that the most important thing in a person's life is not what religious affiliation they attend every week, but how their sense of religion and honesty affects their lives.

I guess maybe there is a fine line between religion and ethics...

(oh boy, yes, I just brought up ethics... :) )

Statements have been made about the Church changing. Orginazations change, denominations change, the opinions of church members change, but the real Church never changes. You have a clear description of it in the book of Acts. That Church has no certain name over the door, but it practices and believes the same things. There may be hypocrites in the building but there are none in the Church. Did I lose you there? By the way excon, no offence intended, but I didn't drink the Kool Aid either, so we do agree on something now and then.

Ill tell you as best as I know. We are all born with this thing called sin. It is a disease that everyone has that gives them an evil nature. When you wonder how could a person do that, just remember that any of us could commit the same fault. But there is a cure for this disease, and that cure is jesus christ. He died on the cross for your sins, as I'm sure you have heard. Some one might die for a good person, but no one would die for a rotten person. Even if that person was a good person what dad do you know that give his son to die in that place. That's what god the father did when he gave his son for ALL of us rotten dirty sinners. The bible says that while we were still sinners christ died for us. Gods gift for that cure is a choice whether you choose to believe or not is your choice just make sure it's the right one.
PEACE TO YOU

Is that really true? You'd be doing bad stuff IF you didn't have your church to tell you otherwise???? Really???

excon

Hello Ex ;)

You ask an incredible question. One with many layers I think. The one answer I think I do know is, sadly :( , even though my religion tells me not to do bad stuff, I still do. They tell me not to be unkind, selfish, materilistic and the like. If I was to do what I think I should be doing, there is no way I should live in the house I do. I should scale down considerably and help the needy and hungry. I sincerely mean that. So, even WITH religion, I still go the wrong way.

Now, on the other side. Those who do not have a religion or practice a religion, does that mean they do bad things and if they did have religion would that make them stop. I probably have met some folks who don't practice a religion and didn't even know they didn't and found them to be some of the most loving giving people.

It is so hard to say. I think because we are human we will always trip. I think it's just a matter of what helps us get back up and regret the fact that we tripped. Some it's the excellent morals taught from home, some it's a combination of religtion and morals taught at home and some maybe it is just inherently human.

For those who have fallen drastically and never got up, I would think it is safe to say, some practiced religion, some did not and some sadly, don't know whether they did or not.

Hi excon

You give me the impression that you think you are inferrier to those religious folk which of course ,YOU ARE NOT we all came into this world with nothing and we shall all leave the same way- with nothing- apart from the knowledge gained through out our lives.

Whether we are religious folk or not is of no consequence, it is more the way in which we choose to live out our lives, whatever path we take.

There are those born with a silver spoon in their mouths who will get the best of everything from an early age but that does not make them better people. There are those who are literally born into poverty who have absolutely nothing , that doesn't make them a worse person.

Those religious folk cannot-and as far as I know- do not look down upon folk with no religious believe.
I think we all have abuilt in moral code which tells us the differences in our behaviour, all of us know if we are doing something wrong, right from an early age, it is instilled in us and strengthened constantly by our parents and alike, OK we'll bend the rules occasionally but that's all part of the learning curve in life.

People still break the rules religious or not, there are those who are suppose to be devoted to their faith but still commit the most indiscribleble crimes against mankind and yet still they will read and preach the bible or what ever book they follow,

People who choose to follow a religion and live their lives by it makes them no better or worse than any other human being, it's just their way of life as is people who choose to live on the road ,in a caravan, on a boat what ever it may be it's their individual choice and they will have their rules for life just the same... plus the crime.

So in answer to your question: yes people would still be doing bad stuff whether their church told them to or not, it's how some people are, they don't abide by any rules and usually have had bad guidance... and think, I'm going to do it no matter what.

I'm getting on a bit myself but I've always said to my kids," your not better than anyone but your as good as anyone, never forget that,"

Hello O:

Thanks.

excon

If you think people without any religious principles to guide them can't get really out of line, just go to Leviticus, chapter 18 and read how the Caananites were living. Sex was everything, with close relatives, same gender, animals, etc. A lot like here today a la Hollywood.

Hello Gal:

I don't know. I thought I knew you. But, if you'd be having sex with your dog if you didn't have the Bible telling you not to, then I guess I don't.

excon

My question is thus: I think we inherently understand right from wrong WITHOUT religion. I always thought religious people thought the same way... But, noooooo.

You people think that we'd still be robbing and raping and killing each other if religion didn't teach you that doin that stuff is wrong.

Is that really true? You'd be doing bad stuff IF you didn't have your church to tell you otherwise???? Really???

excon


I have heard many Christians on here and more so on answerway (peddles) say this
But just like you have your moral and immoral non-believers, Christians have their extreme varieties as well.

Hello Padre:

That's today. I certainly get that my upbringing stems from religion. But, civilization and our concept of God is only about 5,000 years old. We, as modern humans, are 150,000 years old.

My question is about the people who were hanging around just before they found out about God, let's say 10,000 years ago. Did those people know right from wrong?

Or do you think we just got started around 5,000 years ago? That would certainly offer a convenient answer.

excon

First of all how do you know than man is 150000 years old? Secondly if you look at life before Christianity, most cultures were involved in such things as human sacrifice, canabalism e.t.c. Women had no value and rape would be a norm in many societies, but it was with the coming of Christianity that women were considered of equal value to men according to Bible teachings.

Hello sassy:

I know that modern man is 150,000 years old, like I know there's such a thing as gravity and that the earth is round. I understand that people like YOU don't think that stuff because it's "science", which of course, you don't believe.

Secondly, from a historical point of view, you're just flat wrong. Most cultures weren't involved in those things. You shouldn't get your history lessons from your pastor. Besides, if you're right, how come women just got the right to vote, relatively speaking, if Christianity made them equal?

excon

I tend to agree with excon in his assumption that we are born with an inherent knowledge of right and wrong. Anyone that has ever had a baby or babysat one can testify that babies know when they are doing something wrong... it's that little glimmer of "try and stop me" that shines in their eyes... They know what NO means... and they choose to test the boundaries, very early on in life.


Historain Chick, the reason a baby would know it is wrong is because of a previous experience. The first time a baby goes to reach for a vase on the table, he or she is not going to know it is wrong until you yell and say "dont touch that". The next time the baby reach for that vase she will know from past experience that she is not supposed to touch it, and so she has that guilty look on her face. The baby does not just come out of womb inherently knowing right from wrong. It is an acquired knowledge based on past experience and negative. And positive reinforcement.

[QUOTE=excon]Hello sassy:

I know that modern man is 150,000 years old, like I know there's such a thing as gravity and that the earth is round. I understand that people like YOU don't think that stuff because it's "science", which of course, you don't believe.

Hello excon, i am afraid i have to disagree with you. You don't know man is that old you BELIEVE man is that old. I think what you don't understand is that "History" is not science. So unless you were actually present 150000 years ago and observed man's presence at that time then you could say you know. The best scientists can do to estimate how long man has been around is to hypothesis and theorise based on a number of unvarifiable assuptions. I actually find it very irrational and unreasonable that you claim to KNOW how long man has been around.

oh and by the way, I am mastors science student and i have an undergraduate degree in Biology, so your condescending remarks about me not believing "science" are just really nothing but laughable. :)




Secondly, from a historical point of view, you're just flat wrong. Most cultures weren't involved in those things.

Many south american and african cultures were involved in many thoses things and similar practices i mentioned above. All cultures of the world were involved at one point or another, in activities that in today's world, would be considered wrong.



You shouldn't get your history lessons from your pastor.

You just need to revise your 5th grade history text books.



Besides, if you're right, how come women just got the right to vote, relatively speaking, if Christianity made them equal?

Of course it took a while for man to finally catch up with God's word. The Bible gives value to women and clearly states that both men and women are of equal value, something that man obviously did not realise until God said so.

The Bible gives value to women and clearly states that both men and women are of equal value, something that man obviously did not realise until God said so.So if it wasn't for the bible saying so women would not be equal to men? Weird that since I don't read the bible and I consider my wife to be my equal. Where on earth would I get such an idea?

Needkarma, FYI you are still on my ignore list, so if you are commenting on my post, I wouldn't waist my time if I were you because I don't see what you write. Sorry

Your missing great content!

:)

Typical head-in-the-sand attitude.

NK


John 4

Jesus speaks to a Samaritan, multiply divorced woman.

This is the Jesus who's sermon on the mount states "blessed are the poor in spirit, ... the meek etc."


The whole book of Ruth in the OT is about female heroine.



Maybe you should review.

Here is the deal.. God was here before you or I and he has predestined you, or I ,and has placed a calling on each one of our lives. We were made in his image so this "instict" everyone is talking about only seems natural to have because God is Love! He sent his son beacause he loved us so much ,while we were still sinners, and wanted to "bridge the gap " if you will. To answer your question the "Knowlege of right and wrong" Happened with Adam and Eve. Just to be clear Jesus never claimed any religion. So to lable people who believe in God and his son Jesus Christ "religeous folk" is just plan ignorant.( not everyone who claims to know God really does, this is an entirely different discussion.)About as ignorant as believing scientist, who are not God or of any superior being, that the world is billions of years old. Even the very religious pharasis didn't like Jesus because they were losing their "power or control" they didn't want people to fallow him. Even though he was the Messiah and they knew it! He was the one Moses , the prophet, had spoke about. Yet they made a choice to close their spiritual ears, EVEN THOUGH THIS WAS THEIR "religion" , as you call it. See God doesn't want you to be religious, He is, like I said, Love, he doesn't want rituals ,or a strict set of rules, and then a bunch of other rituals to cover your sin etc, etc. He wants you to Love him, and make the choice to allow him to love you, to trust in him obey him out of love and have faith and when you do that, and trust, you will begin to see him manifest in your life and it will be changed! The Lord is abundant in Love, Grace, and mercy. We cannot wrapp our brains around God because he is too glorious for us even too imagine this is where faith comes in. We were all made from him and for him. This is why people always feel as if they have some kind of "void" to fill. They will try anything, drugs alcohol, work etc, etc, but it will never be filled until you put what really belongs right there in the middle of your heart, soul, life.. Jesus, the living water, with out him we are always thirsty. If you want to have answers than who better to ask than the God who gave you the brain you are using, the air you are breathing and the earth you are living in. He says one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD. May the Lord speak to your heart and open your eyes, I pray he sends mighty warriors you way, and not "religeous ppl" so that you might see a mirror image of him. So that one day you can look back at your life and see all the times he has been there all along calling out your name!

Amen

Very well done leeseeandjoel!