I'm writing this question for a friend of mine who has a 3 year old son. She is at her wit's end with his tantrums and is starting to wonder if they are normal or not. Since I'm not a mother yet I don't feel I have enough experience to judge that, but maybe someone here has an opinion? Here are a couple of examples of his tantrums:

The other day he discovered that the car has overhead lights on the inside of it. He loves lights so he wanted to turn them on and off, on and off. My friend decided to not let him do it at all, because it drains the battery. Well he had one of his tantrums and screamed and screamed and kept trying to reach the lights. He almost managed to get himself out of his car seat a couple of times (this was going on while my friend was driving!). She also has a 6 month old baby, and so when they reached home finally, she had to take the baby and the groceries in the house first, because the 3 year old refused to leave the car and continued screaming. Then she had to force him out of the car, and he got away from her and ran back to the car several times before she finally had to literally drag him into the house, kicking and screaming. Once in the house he continued to scream and cry for a long time. All together the tantrum lasted about 90 minutes. He has other tantrums like this several times a week. He has even lay down in the middle of the street to have a tantrum, and she's had to drag him to get him to the other side of the street before the light changes. All this with her 6 month old in tow. She gets very little help from her husband, who is extremely lazy.

Anyway basically just wondering if tantrums to this extent are normal with some kids. Thanks.

Welcome to the 3 yr old world. You may find this out when your soon to be becomes 3 or even 2 for that matter. I have a 2 yr old and a 9month old. Thankfully my 2 yr old has not gotten that bad but he has been known to throw himself down on the floor so you have to drag him. His favorite thing is wanting his cup of water. Unfortunately, I don't have anything solid for thme to try but just that they can't necessarily givein. Sometimes the parents tends to give in too much and then the child will continue to test the boundaries. I have given in on an occasion to not deal with the crying because I think you do have to pick your battles. However, on matters like this that couple needs to go to drastci measures if he has been getting out of his car seat while she is driving, that is pretty bad. I hope someone else may have things to try that might have hlped him but to answer your question, I would say it is normal, but not tolerable behavior.

The first line of defense is called spanking, not beating, but putting your hand hard to their rear several times and telling them they have a reason to cry

Raised 5 though those years. He will do it, if he is not stopped,

One teaching that I don't approve of is to allow him to throw his fit and then explain why he is not getting his way. Bull, he does not care why, he just wants


But after a few times he learns that it is not worth it.

Thanks jduke and Fr Chuck. Yikes I had no idea how common this was. I guess I'll find out soon enough though, lucky me!! :P

I feel like a meanie, but my inclination is to agree with Fr Chuck. I would want to spank in this case... the temptation would be VERY strong! The other day I was visiting with my friend and her son got the idea that sitting on his baby brother's head would be fun. So he kept trying, and my friend kept pulling him off, at LEAST 30 times (! ), and him screaming the whole time. He's not my kid obviously, but I really wanted to spank him for that! She uses time-outs but they don't work on him because he won't stay in time-out. He just follows her around screaming and hitting her. She has to force him back into his time out chair over and over again. My friend has spanked her son before, once or twice only, and she says it works, but she feels very guilty doing it. So she's not doing it anymore. I think I would also feel guilty, and wonder if I was doing something wrong, but like I said I will very strongly want to if my kid behaves this way, and he didn't have some organic brain problem.

First I will say that many, many, many people intoday society will disagree with me, but heck that is not new.


But never, never ( did I say never) spank a child when you are mad. Always do it in love, and be sure to hung and let the child know you love them not too long after something happens.

And yes, it is very common almost all kids believe showing their tail ( a southern expression) will make them get their way.

But I will always add, there are some kids that are different from others and not all parents are good being tough.

I always laught, our youngest is 5, I have not spanked him more than 2 or 3 times ever, all I have to do is raise my voice and he will act like I have killed him. My wife could spank him till he turns blue ( not that he does) and it has little effect. Beats me why, subborn is my guess.

Just like my 10 pound Yorkie has trained me to give him a chicken jerky treat when he has returned to me an item that he has stolen from the counter; whether a pen, eyeglasses, or TV remote; children train adults to get their way. When my grandson was about 5, he threw a tantrum while in my care. I CALMLY informed him that I and my guests didn't want to listen to his outburst and that he could scream till the cows came home, in the back bedroom. Over the next 45 min he tried to exit the room to continue his tirade. Each time I CALMLY escorted him back in, and informed that he wasn't done screaming yet. A gentle swat on the butt would reinforce the point. That was his last tantrum in my home (with me). When visiting my daughter, I would listen to her scream at the two kids to quit fighting etc etc. My suggestions to her fell on deaf ears. CONSISTENCY and CALM, I believe is the key.

One might ask why my daughter became an adult screamer. It is because I was not home much; working and going to school, followed by 70+ hr workweeks at Generous Motors, in my misguided efforts to be a success. My advice is: spend time with your kids; you only have them for a little while.

That makes sense to me, Fr Chuck. But then I think, when the kid is freaking out so much, its very hard to NOT be angry or at least very frustrated. But if you waited until you weren't angry anymore, then it would be too late, cause the kid would be done with their tantrum, right? And it seems wrong to spank them when they're not doing anything anymore, especially if they're very young.

I don't know, I'm just confused about what to do with my own child I guess. I've always thought I would never spank, but then seeing what a holy terror this kid is, to the point of placing himself in danger, not to mention causing huge scenes in public, spanking sounds good!

Just like my 10 pound Yorkie has trained me to give him a chicken jerky treat when he has returned to me an item that he has stolen from the counter; whether a pen, eyeglasses, or TV remote; children train adults to get their way. When my grandson was about 5, he threw a tantrum while in my care. I CALMLY informed him that I and my guests didn't want to listen to his outburst and that he could scream till the cows came home, in the back bedroom. Over the next 45 min he tried to exit the room to continue his tirade. Each time I CALMLY escorted him back in, and informed that he wasn't done screaming yet. A gentle swat on the butt would reinforce the point. That was his last tantrum in my home (with me). When visiting my daughter, I would listen to her scream at the two kids to quit fighting etc etc. My suggestions to her fell on deaf ears. CONSISTENCY and CALM, I believe is the key.



Actually my friend is quite calm, more calm than what I would be, that's for sure!! I'm not a person who yells at all, even when I'm angry or arguing, but I could see myself getting really fed up nonetheless! Anyway, she does pretty much what you've described. The only difference is, her child doesn't seem to learn the way your grandson did. He keeps having the tantrums over and over and over and this has been going on for about a year. That's partially why we're wondering if it's normal or if there's something wrong with him. In all that time he just hasn't learned a thing. Yet in other respects he is very bright. I told her she should write Dr. Phil haha but her husband doesn't want her to!

Anyway thanks for your response, I appreciate it!

She should probably take him to a pediatrician or other medical counsel in order to rule out any physiological cause for the behavior, e.g.. Hyperactivity, autism etc. I wish her the best of luck. Unfortunately kids don't come:confused: with instruction manuals

Please be very careful of people calling out hyperactivity, it is over used, over medicated. Most are just regular kids that parents no long wish to use proper disipline with.

I am not saying it can't exist, just that often it may more deal with control issues of the child, diet and/or allergies.



I am one of those people you do not want to have seat next to on a bus, be in line at walmart or so on with kids that are obviously running the house. I just like I do here will give you may opinion of the situation.

Yea, I really know how to make friends and influence people.
But on the other hand, wearing the clergy collar most of the time, I get by with a little more than most

I totally agree with Chuck. I was thinking, oooh are you going ot get some nasty posts. I was thinking as I was reading that you should never hit a child when you are angry, then I saw it in your next post. I don't think enough parents do spank their children. When I spank my 2 yr old it is to show him that he needs to change his behavior.

Orange, women have a certain instinct about bringing up a child. You will not know everything, so don't pretend to know everything. The other thing, every child is different, so if you get advice from anyone whether it is here or family or whomever, I would suggest you not to take it as set in stone. Try it, if it doesn't work, modify the correction or figure out a new way. As Dr D says, kids don't come with instruction manuals :( (darn) but then again life doesn't either, well, sort of. I'm sure I could write the lngth of a book on this so I will shut up now. :p

Please be very careful of people calling out hyperactivity, it is over used, over medicated. Most are just regular kids that parents no long wish to use proper disipline with.

I am not saying it can't exist, just that often it may more deal with control issues of the child, diet and/or allergies.



I am one of those people you do not want to have seat next to on a bus, be in line at walmart or so on with kids that are obviously running the house. I just like I do here will give you may opinion of the situation.

Yea, I really know how to make friends and influence people.
But on the other hand, wearing the clergy collar most of the time, I get by with alittle more than most


Again totally agree. I think my child would be considered hyperactive. He's 2 come on, of course he is. His pedetrician is pretty good and has not forced thar issue. I heard recently some good "studies" about ADD and ADHD that only a very small percentage of children have this and like Chuck has said can be modified with diet and such.

You people scare me. How you can ever justify spanking a helpless child is beyond me.

Negative enough for you Fr Chuck?

Anyway,

Orange, I was in the same situation as this 3 year old. My mother gave birth to a new baby, spent all this time with the new baby, and I acted out. At that age, kids express their feelings through yelling and screaming, not words.

Your friend should have Daddy baby sit 6 month old baby once a week and Mommy and 3 yr old should go out and spend the day together. It is important for the 3 yr old to realize that Mommy is still around and still cares and loves him. Trust me, I know.

And now to the spanking issue...
HOW COULD YOU? I think I turned out OK, and I was never spanked. Here is an alternative idea to spanking. What does the 3 yr old like? Ice cream for example? Well, that night, after 3yr old was a brat in the car, Mommy and Daddy should have had ice cream for desert but not allowed 3yr old to have any. And tell him the reason he doesn't get any is because he didn't listen to Mommy in the car.

There are many different approaches but spanking should never be an option. That's in essence telling your kids its okay to hit someone when they do something you don't like.

Errr, now I feel like a flake, because I actually agree with parts of what everyone has said, including you, CaptainForrest! I don't want to spank and never had any intention of doing so ever... but then I get this experience with my friend's kid and he is just sooo out of control. Like not just a bad tantrum every once in a while but practically every day and sometimes several times a day! Blah. I guess I'm just feeling a bit scared now because what will I do if I have the same problem with my baby.

I have a lot of patience and although I've said here that I want to spank my friend's kid, I don't think I ever would. Even more so with my own child. After all I never spank my dog and cat, and they've both been pretty annoying at times. Anyway this is all really good to think about now, before I have the child. I can make plans and educate myself, listen to what others say, and as you said jduke, I will hopefully have some natural inclinations about how to care for my baby... actually I think I definitely will, because apparently I'm good with children.

CaptainForrest, I really like your suggestion of having Daddy babysitting once a week, but unfortunately that won't be happening in my friend's case. Her husband is one of the laziest men I've ever met. Since the 3 year old has been born, he has babysat a total of about 2-3 times. My friend can't even leave the kids alone when she showers because her husband complains. She doesn't want to leave them alone with him anyway because he has a bad temper and tends to slap the 3 year old in the face or wherever if the child gets in his way. Luckily MY fiancé is not anything like this... he's looking forward to taking care of the baby when he's not at work.

I think I just answered my own question LOL. After typing all of that, I think one of the reasons the little boy acts out is because of the way his father is. And maybe he wants attention from his father too! But I can't imagine him changing... like I said he is very lazy and very selfish too!

Anyway thanks for your comments!

CaptainForrest, I really like your suggestion of having Daddy babysitting once a week, but unfortunately that won't be happening in my friend's case. Her husband is one of the laziest men I've ever met. Since the 3 year old has been born, he has babysat a total of about 2-3 times. My friend can't even leave the kids alone when she showers because her husband complains. She doesn't want to leave them alone with him anyways because he has a bad temper and tends to slap the 3 year old in the face or wherever if the child gets in his way.


Wow, so why is she with this guy then? He doesn't sound like a good father and perhaps not a good husband? But I might be poking my noise into areas I shouldn't be...

Ugh well that's a really good question!! Why the $%#^ is she with him?? I've been wondering that myself for years. She always complains about him too, and says she's going to leave him, but never does. The stupid part is, she's a hard worker, has a really nice personality, and physically she's absolutely gorgeous. Guys are always looking at her, to the point where it makes me jealous, haha. But my point is, she could have any guy she wanted. Yet she's been with this guy for nearly 10 years now, a long time before she ever had kids with him. I've given up on trying to convince her to leave though. It bothered me for a long time since we are foster sisters, but I had to let it go and I just try to be supportive now, and hope she might have the courage to leave at some point...

Orange, I was in the same situation as this 3 year old. My mother gave birth to a new baby, spent all this time with the new baby, and I acted out. At that age, kids express their feelings through yelling and screaming, not words.

Your friend should have Daddy baby sit 6 month old baby once a week and Mommy and 3 yr old should go out and spend the day together. It is important for the 3 yr old to realize that Mommy is still around and still cares and loves him. Trust me, I know.


I agree, this is one of the things I forgot to mention in my post. My 2yr old acts out because he thinks we give too much attention to our 10 month old. Atcually, I think it is the opposite but he doesn't see this.


Your friend should have Daddy baby sit 6 month old baby once a week and Mommy and 3 yr old should go out and spend the day together. It is important for the 3 yr old to realize that Mommy is still around and still cares and loves him. Trust me, I know.


Again, I agree. I will admit, I don't take my 10 month old as much as I should. One of the reasons is because when he was fully breastfeeding it was hard to find a chunk of time to take him anywhere. This will benefit in 2 ways, it will show the attention to the 3yr old as CaptainForest has mentioned and also will possibly help the younger one to not be so attached to mommy (I know because that is how my 10 month old is).


And now to the spanking issue...
HOW COULD YOU? I think I turned out OK, and I was never spanked. Here is an alternative idea to spanking. What does the 3 yr old like? Ice cream for example? Well, that night, after 3yr old was a brat in the car, Mommy and Daddy should have had ice cream for desert but not allowed 3yr old to have any. And tell him the reason he doesn't get any is because he didn't listen to Mommy in the car.

There are many different approaches but spanking should never be an option. That's in essence telling your kids its okay to hit someone when they do something you don't like.

I agree there are many different approaches to discipline. I think a quick spank on the butt is one of them. I don't go around spanking my child whenever I get the chance and I never hit him in the face. I use spanking as a method to get the boys attention when he has blatently disobeyed me and looks at me and snickers. I will admit, I do hit him when I am angry, but before I hit him I let him know why I am spanking and that way it lets me cool down so that I won't spank him too hard and regret it. What works for some, may or may not work for others. I don't think (this is my opinion for my child) waiting till later to tempt him with icecream because children have a short attention span and may not get the full grasp of what he did earlier.



She doesn't want to leave them alone with him anyway because he has a bad temper and tends to slap the 3 year old in the face or wherever if the child gets in his way.

I think you are right about the father hitting the child. There are probably a lot of reasons this is happening. Hopefully, the mother and father can find a solution.

I don't think (this is my opinion for my child) waiting till later to tempt him with icecream b/c children have a short attention span and may not get the full grasp of what he did earlier.

One thing is that WHEN the child is misbehaving, you tell him won't get any ice cream for desert that night. Then that night, you follow through with it.

You people scare me. How you can ever justify spanking a helpless child is beyond me.

Negative enough for you Fr Chuck?

Anyways,

Orange, I was in the same situation as this 3 year old. My mother gave birth to a new baby, spent all this time with the new baby, and I acted out. At that age, kids express their feelings through yelling and screaming, not words.



There are many different approaches but spanking should never be an option. Thats in essence telling your kids its okay to hit someone when they do something you dont like.


Well lets say it was used for years and years and it works. Sadly today people who want to change things that work come up with ideas that normally have little real effect. I guess in general the treat for behavior like training a dog can work to a point but negative behaior can be a sign they want a boundy, and they are looking for someone to set those boundies. And giving them a treat latter, or not giving them something latter has little effect, they can not match the two events.
A quick swat is not only very effective, but until this last generation it was the preferred method.

Scared, I guess yes, scared that this new sillyness being taught will be found to be wrong and that the old ways are still the best.

Scared, I guess yes, scared that this new sillyness being taught will be found to be wrong and that the old ways are still the best.


This "new sillyness being taught" as you say, is not silly at all. It has been going on for a while, with a lot of good results.

Society changes over time, we no longer have legal retribution killings for example. We now have abortion, same sex marriage, legal prostitution.

Spanking teaches the wrong moral values to kids, hence why more and more don't do it these days.

And that is just the reason to show how things are going bad

Thanks for making my case,

Canada making group sex legal, abortion on demand in the US and many other places, legal prostitution in some places. Marriage having little value, sodomites being free to practice their preversions and homosexual marriage being allowed in many places.

If that is not a good reason to go back to old values I don't know when it would be. Society is slipping into a total disgrace and moral values are not even considered proper. Yes, it may well have started by not setting values for a 3 year old. They have to be told NO, then they would understand they can not indulge thierself anyway and time they want

Legal group sex... I forgot about that one Chuck.

That is recent though as the Supreme Court just ruled on that a few days ago.

To be honest, before the ruling, I didn’t realize group sex wasn’t legal here. I always thought it was.


Canada making group sex legal, abortion on demand in the US and many other places, legal prostitution in some places. Marriage having little value, sodomites being free to practice thier preversions and homosexual marriage being allowed in many places.

If that is not a good reason to go back to old values I don't know when it would be. Society is slipping into a total disgrace and moral values are not even considered proper.

That's where you and I differ. I don't think this makes society worse, rather better.

You say people have no moral values anymore. That's not true. They just don't have YOUR moral values. Morals are something defined by the individual and society. So when society changes, so do moral values. Even 50 years ago would have been considered disgraceful to the people of the 1700s.

We were up quite early this morning, and I'm not sure if I mentioned it or not, but the little boy who is the subject of this thread is staying at my place for Christmas. Anyway he was up and opened his presents and was very happy and cute and that was cool... for the short period it lasted! I don't know whether to laugh or cry, haha.

Anyway, I made waffles and sausages for everyone's breakfast, and for some reason the food on everyone else's plate looked a lot more interesting or tasty to tantrum boy than his own. So he kept trying to take food from other people's plates. His mom said it was because she let him take food from her plate, which is fine I guess.. but he was running all around the table, screaming because his mom wouldn't let him take other people's food. I told him no when he tried to take a sausage from my plate, and he got mad and hit me. Finally it was decided that he should play downstairs with my next door neighbor's 2 kids, who had come over and were finished their breakfast. Then we were able to eat in peace for a while...

Then about an hour ago, he comes upstairs again, and has a very poopy diaper. Except, he won't let his mom change him. This goes on for a while until the diaper starts to leak onto to his clothes and who knows where else, and of course the smell is incredible! Finally we grabbed him, and my fiancé had to hold him down while my friend changed him, and he screamed the whole time. He is a big kid for his age, which is why his mom has difficulty physically controlling him. Not fat, but very tall and strong.

So that's my Christmas morning so far, LOL! Just needed to vent I guess!

Oh and as a bit of an update, my fiancé has arranged for the little guy to be seen by a specialist while he and his mom are here in town. We have a teaching hospital here and there are some really good specialists. One of my fiance's professors has agreed to see him. Actually he's coming over for brunch tomorrow to see the kid in action, haha, and then he'll see him specially in his office on the 27th. So hopefully something will come of that. I'll keep everyone posted.

He's not potty trained at 3?

Curious.. when does one become potty trained?

Between 1 1/2 to 2 normally. But at times a little latter is not unheard of.

Normally what helped with all of my kids was for them to be in preschool with other kids, when one started the others soon followed suit

Also making them sit on the toilet at certain times to get into a routine can help also.

And forgive me, but not doing what the mom says, and it is just let go to latter, "time out" and mother forcing him to be changed,

It's my understanding that kids are potty trained anywhere from 18 months to 3 years or so, with boys generally being trained a little older than girls. I think I was 2 or a little younger. Eric, the little boy staying with me, is actually mostly potty trained, he only wears diapers at night, and the diaper fiasco this morning was the result of his overnight diaper, which hadn't been changed yet. Why he wanted to keep it on though is beyond me!

Fr Chuck that's a really good idea about preschool and the kids taking each other's lead. I never thought of that. I will have to make sure mine goes to preschool or at least a playgroup!


and forgive me, but not doing what the mom says, and it is just let go to latter, "time out" and mother forcing him to be changed,

I'm not sure what you were trying to say here? Did you accidentally cut yourself off? Anyway thanks again for the comments!

This the first time I noticed this post or I would have chimed in earlier. I am a social worker and I see these things all the time. First of all let me commend Chuck for advocating spanking. Contrary to popular belief you can still spank your children, you just can't abuse them. This child has learned that his mother will entertain these tantrums. Did the tantrums begin shortly after the 6 month old appeared? I am sure before the baby came he was the center of their world. What happens when he wants to get attention he began acting out? Do mom and dad yell at one another? He may think it is acceptable. Children often mimic what they see behind closed doors.
Your friend needs to find a calm consistent manner of disciplining her child. She might want to go to Barnes and Noble or Joseph Beth and look for a book or video called 1-2-3 Magic. In this system the child knows the punishment in advance.. i.e. if you misbehave you will be in time of for x number of minutes or you will get a spanking. When the child acts out the only thing the adult says to the child are the numbers 1, 2, 3 nothing else. If you get to 3 the child gets the predetermined punishment. After it is over then discuss the child's behavior. It is important that this be done VERY consistently and you only use the numbers. Don't ask the child to stop the behavior, don't offer treats to get them to do something, just say 1-2-3. It works I taught this method in court ordered parenting classes. If you have questions post them or email me. If she doesn't get this kid under control she is heading for a Oppositional Defiant Disorder diagnosis for her child.

Heather, thanks so much for your input. I really appreciate it. I have never heard of this 1-2-3 system, but as I'm expecting my first baby in the summer, I'm glad to hear about anything to do with parenting. My fiance's grandmother wants to buy us a couple of parenting books as holiday gifts, so I think I'll suggest to her the one you recommended.

Now as far as Eric goes... he's been a little worse since his brother was born, but he's had these tantrums for about a year already, so it's not because of the baby, since the baby is only 6 months old. He's worse when she's holding the baby or when they are in public, but from observing him the last few days, I personally think it's because he knows that she's physically less able to control him while the baby is in tow, or can't do much in public without other people noticing. Maybe I'm crazy, but I see this glint in his eye, like he knows EXACTLY when to behave the worst to get what he wants. He's pretty bright. And when he gets what he wants, he stops crying or screaming instantly! It's like turning off a faucet or something.

I'm confused about what my friend wants re: Eric... like she complains about his tantrums and says she's at her wit's end, and from seeing him for the last couple of days I can definitely see why. But the moment I or anyone else suggests anything, she changes her mind and says Eric is a good boy. She has the same pattern with her husband... she complains about him non-stop and wants us to listen, but if we criticize him or suggest she leave him, then she starts defending his actions. It's frustrating.

Anyway I'm not sure if she's interested in getting help anymore, she was last week, but she changes her mind all the time... sigh. I am very grateful to everyone who has responded to this thread though... especially since I'm going to be a mother soon. I accept the fact that my child is going to have tantrums too, but I sincerely hope they will not be as bad as Eric's!

If I come up with anymore questions, for myself or my friend, I will post them here.

I have only had boys ( 5 of them) plus three step children all boys.

Yes count them 8 boys total. Plus we have taken in several teen boys over the years. A stupid thing in the state welfare systems. At 18 the children are not adults and out they go, even if they are not out of high school. So the foster parents ( the ones just doing it for the money) won't keep them any longer. So you have 18 year old with no money, not out of high school and no place to live. Not a lot of them, many find family or the foster parents still keep them. But we have helped some over the years. None as of late.

But all of my "boys" except my youngest are in their mid twenties and I have a herd of grandkids now.

But I do have a new 5 year old at home still.

And please understand, in those 5 years I have only spanked him maybe 3 or 4 times. But his older brothers were a different issue but each and everyone has their own personality and each one needs different things.

Some need some freedom but boundries. Others need constant watching and constant demands

We too often also try to have small adults kids are kids, they run, they yell, they scream and they break things at times. And they argue, say things they hear ( oh my god do they do that )

Often we also need to just let them be kids.

1-2-3 magic is great. I have a lot of parenting information if you want it. I can send you my class packet. I teach parenting skills to people who are court ordered due to abuse or neglect. I have info from birth to age 18.
Eric sounds like he is calculating. It needs to be corrected now. I hope she gets it under control. I would hate to see him label ODD and end up medicated due lack of discipline.

Yes count them 8 boys total. Plus we have taken in several teen boys over the years. A stupid thing in the state welfare systems. At 18 the children are not adults and out they go, even if they are not out of high school. So the foster parents ( the ones just doing it for the money) won't keep them any longer. So you have 18 year old with no money, not out of high school and no place to live. Not alot of them, many find family or the foster parents still keep them. But we have helped some over the years. None as of late.


Is it like that all over the US? I mean, once you turn 18, is there no government help? I was a Crown Ward (in Canada) from age 4 until 18, although my parents had some visiting privileges (which they seldom used). In any event, after I was emancipated, there was still help from the government, in the form of monthly payments called Orphan's Benefits (my parents were dead by that point), and I also qualified for social assistance and special financial assistance to attend postsecondary school. Crown Wards usually get a lot of help from the system (unless they are incarcerated by that point) so that they don't repeat the cycle of their parents. Lots end up having problems anyhow, but we do get a head start that a lot of people WITH parents don't get. I'm sorry to hear that it's not the same way in the US.

Yes, when I got involved with one of my step sons life, he was rated by doctors as ODD. What we found was attention and issues from his parents divorce many years ago. Plus there was some diet issues and blood chemistry issues.

But after getting his diet straight, being given a more controlled living situation over what he had, We found that the medicine he was taking was actually causing more issues.

Now this is not the case for everyone, and people need to follow their doctors, but what I have seen is that a lot of HMO's and insurance plans, pay for drugs without any problem, but counseling is not paid for, so it is cheaper and easier to medicate instead of finding other avenues of help.

Eric sounds like he is calculating. It needs to be corrected now. I hope she gets it under control. I would hate to see him label ODD and end up medicated due lack of discipline.

So this ODD is not a genetic disorder then I take it? I don't know much about it, but I didn't realize that it could be the result of bad parenting. I thought maybe it was just caused by either trauma or some genetic predisposition. Thanks for the info, I'm going to Google it to see if I can find out more.

And yeah Fr Chuck I agree it's definitely easier to medicate... actually medication is almost free here in Canada if you are low income. Whereas only the government sponsored counseling is free, and there's usually long waiting lists... sometimes a year or more! The majority of counselors are in private practice and cost a lot. OH and psychiatrists are all free of course, but a great many of them treat by medication only, with little or no psychotherapy.

Fr Chuck I commend you again for being an excellent foster parent. Here in KY an 18 year old child can commit themselves to the cabinet until they are 21. Plus it guarantees them a college or vocational education. Not a bad deal.
Oppositional Defiance Disorder is not genetic.Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) is a psychiatric behavior disorder that is characterized by aggressiveness and a tendency to purposefully bother and irritate others. These behaviors cause significant difficulties with family and friends and at school or work. It can be caused by a chemical imbalance. It is often in response to a chaotic environment.

Here are some great websites:
www.klis.com/chandler/pamphlet/oddcd/oddcdpamphlet.htm
www.vh.org/pediatric/patient/pediatrics/cqqa/odd.html
www.childparenting.about.com/cs/disorders/a/odd.htm

This book may help: The Defiant Child : A Parent's Guide to Oppositional Defiant Disorder (Paperback)
By Douglas Riley

Good Luck!

Here in KY an 18 year old child can commit themselves to the cabinet until they are 21. Plus it guarentees them a college or vocational education. Not a bad deal.


Oh I am so relieved to hear that... I have a special feeling when it comes to foster children... guess because I was one myself! Anyway that's great that there's a similar program in the States after all. And thanks for the links and book names. I will check those out.

And yes Fr Chuck thanks so much for being a foster parent, and a good one too. Too many of the homes I and some of my foster siblings were in were bad... so it's great when foster parents actually care!

I found when my 2 year old started with the tantrums I took his toys away and left the toy in a spot he could see the toy but could not reach but remember it will get worse before it gets better but it has worked for me

Christine, that sounds like a good idea also, since I have a 2 yr myself. He doesn't have a lot of tantrums but he constantly wants to get his own way. This may work.

Heather, thank you so much for backing up what Chuck and I have been saying about spanking. I do agree there is sometimes cases of too much spanking where it really hurts the child more than shows him to change his behavior. I think we are afraid sometimes to show discipline with our children because we are afraid that CPS is going to take them away. It gives hope that with what you are saying CPS won't necessarily do that until there is a good reason (like abuse).

Chuck, again I totally agree with the fact that this is why our society is going bad. Kids are growing up being disrespectful to parents and adults. They think they own the world.


Canada making group sex legal, abortion on demand in the US and many other places, legal prostitution in some places. Marriage having little value, sodomites being free to practice their preversions and homosexual marriage being allowed in many places.


I will add kids killing people, drinking, drugs, premiscuous sex to name a few... hmmm... I guess this must be all moral things.

The fact that group sex being legal has just been approve does show the demoralizing of our society. The fact that everyone else approves it doesn't mae it right. I guess if they approve that you can kill people whenever you want or child porn becomes legal, that will be moral also. Just a thought.

I just wanted to update you guys about little Eric. He was seen by the specialist I mentioned earlier, who from observing and examining him thinks he may have something organically wrong with his brain. Thus some neurological tests, as well as other general tests for health, are being ordered for him. He, his mom and little brother are going to stay at my place until all the tests can be completed. I will continue with updates when we hear the results of the various tests.

However...

There are behavioural changes I've noticed in him, since he's been here, and they are pretty "telling". First off, he plays very nicely with my fiancé. Also, my fiancé is a big guy, with a big booming voice, and he's been really annoyed by the tantrums. He's actually told Eric to quit it a couple of times, and Eric listens to him! Whereas he doesn't listen to his mother. Also Eric seems to have fewer tantrums with me. I took him to Wal-Mart and McDonalds yesterday, to give his mom a break, and he was a perfect angel for the whole 4 hours! Unheard of! I was almost embarrassed to tell his mom about it. Maybe he's just being "polite" with my fiancé and I, or maybe he's scared of us LOL. Whatever it is though, it doesn't add up with a brain disorder, that's for sure...

JDuke44
In order for CPS to remove children they have to be in immediate risk of death or imminent danger. A parent spanking a child does neither. By spanking I mean a few swats on the bottom. Hitting a child anywhere else or leaving bruises could be construed as abuse. CPS can just as easily get involved with your family because children are out of control.

Orange keep us posted on how Eric is doing.

Well here's the final update for this thread... Eric has just been diagnosed with mild autism. So his tantrums did have a cause outside of the norm. He's going into some treatment, and hopefully there will be some improvements. Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread... I appreciate it!

Orange,
I am so glad that you have an answer. I hope all is well. Have you had your baby? I just found out I am expecting!
Heather

Oh wow that's great Heather, congratulations!

Nope I haven't had the baby yet, but I'm due in June (on Father's Day actually!) and I found out recently that the child is a boy. :)

And in case you haven't followed my other threads, I now have 2 more little ones, my 4 year old nephew and 6 year old niece. Their parents died in a tragic accident not so long ago, and my husband and I have adopted them. So when my baby is born we will be quite a large family already!

Wow adoption and a new baby. Congrats,furthermore thanks for accepting g responsibility of your nieces and nephews. I hate days at work where we get parental fatalities and no one wants the children. If you need anything let me know. How old are the children you adopted.

Heather

We were very happy to take them. I've always wanted a large family, 4-5 kids at least, and we are blessed with enough money to raise that many kids comfortably. Actually we had agreed to be named as guardians in the parents' will. We just never thought the parents were going to die so soon. They were only 28 and 29 years old! The children are 4 and 6 years old. So far they seem to be adjusting fairly well, of course they are very sad about their parents and have nightmares and crying spells. I've enrolled them in a grief support group for children, and I recently started taking them to the synagogue every morning to say the mourner's kaddish for their parents (it's a Jewish tradition, and we're Jewish). We're not religious at all, but synagogue is only 3 blocks away and they are enjoying going. I think it's a good support for them and for me, too. Plus they are continuing with their karate and swimming lessons, which helps to keep them occupied. I am a stay at home mom, so I can give them lots of my time.

Thanks so much for your offer of help. When some trouble arises, which I'm sure it will, I will definitely think of you! Good luck again with your new baby!

This is not as hard a fix as it might seem.

Tell the child what to expect before you enter a situation in very clear words.
"After lunch, first you will need to put your shoes on. Then we can go to the playground."

Use "First and then". We cannot leave for the playground yet. Remember, first put your shoes on, then we can go to the playground.

If he refuses, set a timer. "David, if you want to go to the playground, you must put your shoes on before this timer dings. If it dings before you have your shoes on, we are not going today." He will not put his shoes on, and you will not go to the playground. He will live. He will have a tantrum, and you will put him in time out. It will be a marathon and you will remain calm and focused on the goal. You must win the battle without losing your composure or letting him get the best of you.

Tomorrow, you will say, "David, after lunch, first you need to put your shoes on, then we can go to the playground. If you misbehave as you did yesterday, we are not going."

Follow through.

If you are consistent, the child will learn to act nicely to get what he wants.

Well this 3 yr old seem to have everytink on a plate when he was little if this is the way his carrying on now. My little brother use to be like it. But his would last for hours so what my mom use to do was put him in his room till he use to stop crying then when he had enough off crying my mom would put the telly on for him in the living room then he would calm down but tell your friend not to scream or shout at the little boy because he will get louder an louder. Just tell her to be calm an put him in his room to have 5minutes out then let him down stairs an put him on the sette then hopfully he would have calmed down. Then when his done as his told give him sumat at the end off the day for being a good little boy. Hope it works

My daughter use to thow tantrums too. This may sound horrible, but it did work on her... take a small glass of water, and toss the water into the child's face. It scares them of course, but it is effective. After 2-3 times of getting water in the face, my daughter quit throwing those little fits. I am a believer in spanking, but when a child is throwing one of those little fits... a parent's wits can only last so long before they themselves are ready to "go off", which then they could in turn hurt the child by spanking, cause they are so frustrated. Suggest to your friend the water treatment and see how that works. If that doesn't work, suggest taking the little tike to his doctor and have him tested for A.D.D.

Best of luck to your friend!