Hello lanzmen:

Is a bris ritualistic disfigurement, or a mitsvoh? What about without anesthesia?

Is female circumcision (removal of the clitoris) disfigurement, or is it just a ritual practiced by a backwards group of people?

excon

I understand the religious meaning behind the bris and the medical "necessity" of circumcision. The doctors claimed my infant sons didn't feel pain and would have no recollection of being circumcised. (If they didn't feel pain, why did they scream their heads off?) If I could make that choice again, I would refuse to allow them to be circumcised.

From what I've read, not only does female circumcision remove the clitoris, the home plate of a woman's sexual sensation, but also often sews the vagina nearly closed. Intercourse becomes extremely difficult, childbirth is nearly impossible, and orgasm no longer can occur. The procedure gives a new definition to lifelong pain and misery. So, yes, it's disfigurement. It's also abuse and torture.

Mitzvoth. Disfigurement implies deformity, and that's not circumcision. The ceremony itself dates back 5k years to the patriarch "Avraham" and his covenant with G-d. Today, ritual circumcision is done by a mohel, on the eighth day, usually in the families home, but is permitted in hospital under the father's care. Sometimes the circumstance is that baby was ill or premature, or if adopted and received after the eight day. There is controversy in some Jewish communities concerning the use of a clamp in accordance to Jewish law. Mostly Orthodox communities disregard any use of clamps. If done in a hospital for a Jewish bris it will be asked of the father as an option. Mohels do not use clamps and it is regarded to be less painful than using a clamp since the clamp, in some cases, pinches the skin. After the bris is performed, the baby is able to perform all natural functions of life. A local anesthesia is optional, although not necessary. In some Jewish communities they just have the baby suck on a cloth dipped in wine.

Very recently my wife had a c-section and my baby boy, "Zakary" was born a little early so on the eighth day I optioned to do the circumcision at Southwest Medical clinic, as a precaution in case of any complications, not because of the circumcision itself, but because the baby was born to a mother that had hypertension. In Judaism it's the fathers obligation to make sure the baby has a bris so I chose to do the blessings. The hospital was very understanding and accommodating. Las Vegas has the fourth largest Jewish populated city in the US, so this was nothing new to their staff. The baby never cried except when we first took his diaper off, which was normal for him. In fact the bris didn't bother him one bit; happy and smiling. After coming home we had a party with food for guests.

Female circumcision is not proscribed in Judaism. In regards to the act, it is outright mutilation that unnecessarily removes a natural body function. Barbaric or as you put it, "practiced by a backwards group of people."



Bobby

Concerning boys...

The AMA follows the AAP's (american academy of pediatrics) position on use of anesthesia...

"There is considerable evidence that newborns who are circumcised without analgesia experience pain and physiologic stress. Neonatal physiologic responses to circumcision pain include changes in heart rate, blood pressure, oxygen saturation, and cortisol levels.36-39 One report has noted that circumcised infants exhibit a stronger pain response to subsequent routine immunization than do uncircumcised infants.40 Several methods to provide analgesia for circumcision have been evaluated."

Circumcision Policy Statement -- Task Force on Circumcision 103 (3): 686 -- AAP Policy (http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics%3b103/3/686)

Disfigurement? "acceptable disfigurement"? I think maybe, but there's just not enough proof for my argument. I'm circumcised, my son isn't. Until a bunch of uncircumcised men line up to get the procedure and then report back whether the loss of potentially thousands of nerves decreased sexual experience, we'll not know. I've seen anti circumcision sites state that men whove had this done late in life have complained, but that can just be propaganda... it makes sense to me how circumcision could potentially affect your sexual experience, and I recently went into a discussion about how the health "concerns" are either overblown or not enough of a concern for either the AMA or AAP to recommend the procedure...

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/circumcision-required-156763.html#post748267

... so I won't rehash it. But the ama and aap seem to think the procedure should involve pain management.

Good research "kp2171." I know that what the AMA thinks has nothing to do with Judaism, but since the subject is brought up, and I previously I asked my health professional at Southwest Medical... I was told that there are actually two main theories floating around the medical communities concerning pain of infants during a circumcision. 1) The nerves are not completely sensitive or quite fully functioning at eight days and 2) The newborn is experiencing all new sensations in the realm of life, making it to be painful or not.

I personally have known babies that had a painless bris without any analgesia. I'm traditional enough as the Jewish father to have the bris by commandment, but my Reform roots slip in once in awhile, so given the option I chose the local analgesia for my baby. And actually I was respecting my wife's input, as well. The main thing is that the bris was completed in a timely manner with blessings, and the baby was happy and smiling.

In Judaism, whatever pain is accompanied due to circumcision is acceptable. Rabbis teach that if there is pain, it's part of the life cycle. But as Jews we really are not to analyze it in that regard. Sure we naturally don't want our babies to go through pain. But it's sort of like the question we often receive about, "why eat kosher?," when some non-kosher foods have nutritional values. It's simply because G-d commanded.


Bobby

I probably choose middle ground here... don't want to distract from the thread. I tend to push too much sometimes.

I honestly believe you when you say you've seen bris without the child in pain. I've read other accounts and I've seen a circumcision in which the child shrieked and then stopped, as if the pain were so incredible that it couldn't gasp out the air... it was awful... so the most I can say is that there are many, different accounts of what the experience is... and I have no real agenda, even though I chose to not circumcise my son.

If you tell me you think its painless, I believe you believe its true... and I don't know that its not true.

And thanks for the theories on why some believe it may not be painful, or maybe not for some and for others. It's a thoughtful addition to a good discussion.

Rabbis teach that if their is pain, it's part of the life cycle.

To finish my thought in my rating (my computer burped)... circumcision is not a natural part of a life cycle.

To finish my thought in my rating (my computer burped)....circumcision is not a natural part of a life cycle.

It has been and will continue to be part of the Jewish life cycle going on some five thousand years now. It's not expected of non-Jews, but as a Jew, I'm addressing what pertains to Judaism.


Bobby

part of the Jewish life cycle

Aaaaaaaaaaaah. JEWISH life cycle. Thank you.

I am sure there is pain because after I was circumcised I could not walk for a year.

Anything you do to your body to alter it is disfigurement. In the name of religion, vainty etc...
The backwoods people that are doing this to women are tormentors and there should be a law against it. Just another practice to keep women in their place.
As far as Jewish I can't remark because I know nothing about them.
The dr.'s that say it doesn't hurt in my opinon are idiots.

Not to make too much of a mess of things, but getting those shots and the doctor's office looks painful and kids do seem to cry a lot, but we accept the white coat and medical degrees as authority enough to tell us that this is for some greater good -- physical health.

Crazy thing about faith -- it allows us to recognize an even higher authority who says that there is another procedure necessary for spiritual health. True, it causes pain, but no one gave me a sip of whiskey after my MMR shots ;)

Not to make too much of a mess of things, but getting those shots and the doctor's office looks painful and kids do seem to cry a lot, but we accept the white coat and medical degrees as authority enough to tell us that this is for some greater good -- physical health.

Crazy thing about faith -- it allows us to recognize an even higher authority who says that there is another procedure necessary for spiritual health. True, it causes pain, but no one gave me a sip of whiskey after my MMR shots ;)


Thanks Rosends. Excellent points. :)


Bobby

Baram,OK, you got me on the tooth. But you can get a replacement one... Foreskin can not be replaced or grown back like toennails or hair... so yes it is altering the body. I would not sign for my daughter to have her ears pierced, I figure that is something that she should do as an adult, if she wishes.

So, people will choose to believe that cutting off a portion of the body is not painful bacause that's what they choose to have faith in... Sounds kind of like religion doesn't it?

Hmmm, wonder how many people still practice sacrificing their children?

Baram,ok, you got me on the tooth. But you can get a replacement one...Foreskin can not be replaced or grown back like toennails or hair....so yes it is altering the body. I would not sign for my daughter to have her ears pierced, I figure that is something that she should do as an adult, if she wishes.

I'm just having fun with you. I know what you really meant and respect your view.


Bobby

So, people will choose to believe that cutting off a portion of the body is not painful bacause that's what they choose to have faith in... Sounds kind of like religion doesn't it?

Hmmm, wonder how many people still practice sacrificing their children?

Huh? This site has the tools to quote a person. Where did somebody say that?


Bobby

I personally have known babies that had a painless bris without any analgesia.

You said "painless". Just because a child doesn't show obvious signs does not mean that it is not present. The only way to come to that positive conclusion is through faith in an assumption.

You said "painless". Just because a child doesn't show obvious signs does not mean that it is not present. The only way to come to that positive conclusion is through faith in an assumption.


OK. Let's see if your assumption makes any logical sense whatsoever. You bent out of shape because I'm Jewish, have a Faith, and have witnessed some circumcisions where babies did not cry, but were happy and smiling, as in my own child, doesn't mean that these were painless. So you the one guy "bentoutofshape" in Ohio, conclude that this is the fault of religion. Gotcha! Thank you. You might be right. My sons mouth might have been sore from smiling throughout the procedure. He actually carried on in happiness for hours later until falling asleep. Must have been horrible. Thank you again and thank you for a cameo appearance here on the Judaism board, you lovable personality and tolerant genius. :)


Bobby

Hello again:

Thank you all. I have to tell you, I have mixed feelings about this.

Clearly, circumcision hurts and it's a disfigurement. You're not going to convince me otherwise, cause that's just so. I don't believe the myth that babies don't feel pain. I can't even for the life of me, figure out where THAT came from, or what evidence there is to back it up. A baby smiling through a painful procedure ISN'T evidence.

Secondarily, if God didn't want a foreskin, why'd he put one there?

Now we come to the conflict. I'm a cultural Jew - NOT a religious one. I LOVE and embrace the culture. I participate in the culture. I LIVE the culture. I AM the culture. I'm very proud that my culture has existed in tact for over 5,000 years.

However, my cultural side looks askance at ANY religious procedure (by ANY religion) that causes pain to another.

Is it time to put that backwater procedure in the trash heap along with polygamy and human sacrifice? If not now, EVER? Yes, I know we've been doing it for 5,000 years. The Arabs have been cutting off peoples for that long too.

I know that is the secular side of me speaking. Ok...

excon

PS> (edited) More conflict. Please don't misunderstand me. As I look down upon my circumcised unit, I really think it looks a lot better than the uncircumcised ones do. Go figure.

So, people will choose to believe that cutting off a portion of the body is not painful bacause that's what they choose to have faith in... Sounds kind of like religion doesn't it?


Ok so now I must be anti-tolerant because I disagree with you concerning a surgical procedure? My original post only stated that to believe something (painless circumcission) based on "faith" (firm belief in something for which there is no proof) sounded like religion to me.

In my post, I made no conclusions about anything being the fault of religion. Indeed, I feel that you are the person who has made conclusions about my intentions. Hopefully, you do not have a persecution complex, regarding your religion... although given history, it would be understandable if you do.

Please accept my sincere apologies for any confusion or misunderstanding that has arisen from my wording. I believe I am allowed to state my opinion of disagreement to messages from other's in the forum. Your comments welcoming me to the forum seemed less than sincere and did little to make others feel any openness to discuss religious matters. Due to the sensitive and emotional nature that comes with strong beliefs, I am not surprised to find such reactions.

excon -- your response makes perfect sense from your context as a cultural Jew, to a degree -- you embrace your culture but don't want to see that that culture is an effect of the ritual that crafted it over the millennia.

To embrace culture but ignore the religious aspect is to eat matzah because it tastes good. It doesn't -- we do it even though it causes constipation, because God told us to. We wrap leather straps around our arms, not because we enjoy cutting off the blood flow to our fingers at 6:30 in the morning, or because it connects us to our grandparents but because God told us to. We don't cut our hair during the Omer not because we are closet hippies, but because our religion says not to. All of those visible signs of "being Jewish" aside from wearing a star are really steeped in the rules and regulations which determine us as Jewish.

We are commanded in the text which describes our being distinct to cut off the foreskin -- to show that our lusts are subjugated to God's will and that we are united in this act with the heritage of a covenant with the divine. We aren't about eating kosher-style chicken soup and deli sandwiches or dancing in a circle to some music in a minor key at a wedding but about maintaining the practices which allowed us to distinguish ourselves and be a separate nation.

As I said earlier, getting shots is painful, so should we relegate it to the scientific trash heap which holds blood letting? Or should we say that it is that practice which has helped keep us alive and keep on doing it even though it makes babies cry?

Continuing the obervance of the brit through circumcision keeps us alive as well and is the reason that we have a culture to be a part of.

I'll get down off my soap box now.

I'll get down off my soap box now.Hello again, rosends:

Don't. Because I realize that my participation in the culture is hollow without the religion.

Nonetheless, it IS my culture, and I (like any Jew) have an opinion about it. Hopefully, my LACK of religion doesn't disqualify me.

One benefit that my atheism MAY provide me, is that I don't get constipated when I eat matzoh.

excon

Sounds kind of like religion doesn't it?

Hmmm, wonder how many people still practice sacrificing their children?


So your surprised after making the above comments? Listen pally, as Jews we strive to accommodate and be tolerant with everyone, including you. I really should not have to summarize in context what I already said. So given that you're here on the Judaism board and chose to start with a general intolerance toward religion, try now to be respectful. Likewise you'll have my respect.


Bobby

excon agrees: It was YOU who suggested I ask over here.

I'm getting older, at least my wife reminds me of such, but my memory hasn't completely failed me yet. Of course I invited you, as it relates to Judaism, not on the politics board. Remember the "mitzvoth" part of your OP? It's understandable with the replies you received here, albeit mostly from non-Jews without expertise in Judaism, that you might as well had posted on the politics board. Maybe it's just me, but I thought questions about a bris belonged on the Judaism board.


Bobby

Respect is earned by your actions, not through name calling and/or sarcasm. Calling me "pally" and "you lovable personality and tolerant genius" does little to further any positive regard for you.

If you are not open to logical discussion, without using those tactics to defend your stance, then there is little from the exchange to invoke within me any desire to explore your beliefs.

Such defense mechanisms are not productive for anything more than shutting the world out.

Respect is earned by your actions, not through name calling and/or sarcasm. Calling me "pally" and "you lovable personality and tolerant genius" does little to further any positive regard for you.

If you are not open to logical discussion, without using those tactics to defend your stance, then there is little from the exchange to invoke within me any desire to explore your beliefs.

Such defense mechanisms are not productive for anything more than shutting the world out.


Good. Then you realize your sarcastic shot at "religion" and "sacrificing children" was uncalled for. We can start anew if you like? What question pertaining to Judaism do you have for the board?



Bobby

Two questions actually.

First, what is the orthadox view of gay and lesbian relationships in Judaism? I am curious because I knew a gay woman in college whose father was a Rabbi.

Second, are there any cultural issues surrounding how women act toward men? Are women viewed as separate from men as far as making personal and religious decisions for the family? I seriously would like to know as a compariison to other religions. I know that there is a wide variety of thought from the Christian perspective and a curious about the traditional or majority of thought on it in Judaism. If the religious heritage is traced through maternal lines, I wonder if this makes them the head of the household or not?

Two questions actually.

First, what is the orthadox view of gay and lesbian relationships in Judaism? I am curious because I knew a gay woman in college whose father was a Rabbi.?

I can't tell you how that particular rabbi dealt with his lesbian daughter, however I can tell you that traditional Judaism does not approve of homosexual relationships. Congregants would be asked to re-consider their actions with counciling. There are actually outreach programs, here's one link: JONAH (Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality) (http://www.jonahweb.org/cms/e/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=31)


A known person being gay in a relationship couldn't receive ordination to become a rabbi. Conservative and Post Denominational Judaism are the same way. Over the past decade the Reform movement have permitted such, and the Reconstructionist, which is the most liberal branch of Judaism, just about anything goes.

Orthodox- No homosexual rabbis; Chabad Lubavitch - Torah, Judaism and Jewish Info (http://www.chabad.org/)

Conservative- No homosexual rabbis; USCJ: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism (http://www.uscj.org/index1.html)

Post Denominational- No homosexual rabbis; www.adatami.com|Index (http://www.adatami.com/Index.html)

Reform- Over the past decade or so, Reform Judaism has been addressing homosexuality and to what degree if it will be permited. A few Reform Temples are ran more conservative but most have become more progressive and less traditional; URJ - Homosexuality (http://urj.org/ask/homosexuality/)

Reconstructionist- Almost anything is acceptable; Is Reconstructionist Judaism For You? (http://www.jrf.org/recon/rjis.html)






Second, are there any cultural issues surrounding how women act toward men? Are women viewed as separate from men as far as making personal and religious decisions for the family? seriously would like to know as a compariison to other religions. I know that there is a wide variety of thought from the Christian perspective and a curious about the traditional or majority of thought on it in Judaism. If the religious heritage is traced through maternal lines, I wonder if this makes them the head of the household or not?


The standard guidelines for life cycles are set in Orthodox Judaism, that just comes with territory. Equally dependent on each other are men and women. Rabbis teach that women are the higher spiritual creatures. Personally I see this in their sensitivities. They don't react as men to the same circumstances. As men, we are typically more hard shelled, and women more emotional and caring. Although child rearing is a function of both parents you will see the women are given special status to promote the well being of the child's care more often; teaching at home and preparing kosher meals. This is due to social issues as much, since many women in Orthodox communities in the US still stay home and take of the child and the father works. Orthodox emphasize the tradition of the Bar Mitzvah, as to where it's part of non-Orthodox Judaism has introduced the modern standard for the Bat Mitzvah. You'll see this heavily promoted by mothers in the non-Orthodox communities for their daughters. Men and women sit separately in Orthodox shul. Not that the women are less important, but most of the synagogue functions in the Orthodox service are carried out by the men. Women do have some functions though, for example candle lighting. Practically speaking it lessens the distractions. However in the Orthodox communities women do not become rabbis. My son's recent bris was part of my responsibility as the father, not the mother. With the exception of some of the more liberal branches, traditional Judaism teaches that if the mother is Jewish, the child's Jewish. So in that respect women are treated as carrying that banner. One of the reasons is because a women knew whom the father was and to discourage assimilation, especially at a time when Jewish women were being raped. Off the top of my head, if I recall correctly, the foundation for the matrilineal guideline is found in the book of Ezra. There are also laws concerning purity, bodily functions, that women are responsible for carrying out. And between and husband and wife, the husband needs to be aware to maintain within in the Torah.

Although I've attended synagogue with all the branches of Judaism, I was raised in the Reform movement. Rosends and ETW can further expand on the Orthodox specifics.



Bobby

Well, I can tell you penetcostal men want their women see not heard... at least where I was raised. Needless to say I was kicked out of that religion a long time ago. I went happily.

Rosends, after reading the link I'm a little surprised by their decision and I certainly disagree with them for doing so. The last time I went to a Conservative service was for a Bar Mitzvah over 12 years ago. At that time, the gay controversy was a major topic, you could almost sense that they were going down the same path as the Reform eventually.


Bobby

The Conservative movement is splitting, it just doesn't want to admit it. The Egal branch and the Traditional branch are trying to figure out which one is really Conservative and which is too close to either Reform or Ortho.

This is what happens when a movement springs up as a response -- Conservative developed as a response to Reform's being too reform, not because it was a unique and separate philosophical movement; that developed a bit later, if I recall my schooling.

I second your thoughts on that (more on this in the next paragraph). My mother's side of the family were German speaking Prussian Jews, perhaps originally out of the Poland/Russia part before Germany, that migrated to the US in the late 1870's to the south-central Texas area. Below is a link proving history of Reform Jews in Austin. I mention this because of where I associated off and on, many many moons ago, before moving to Las Vegas, Nevada in the mid-nineties.

http://bethisrael.sitestreet.org/8/Community.htm

As you've already mentioned the Conservative movement came as a response to the liberal Reform out of Germany. However, I don't think they built their first shul until the movement really got popular in the US. I'm not one hundred percent sure on that. I suppose I should brush up on that part of history. I think the Conservatives difficulty is definition and as you say, don't want to admit that a split is on the horizon. When the Reform movement in relatively recent history had the same predicament they finally decided to permit members to be as liberal or traditionally observant as one likes, instead of risking any more major splits. However, not all Reform leaders stood pat by this decision. At the shul where I occasionally attend, the rabbi did desire a more traditional view, so he opted for Post-Denominational. It's actually a mix of Reform and Conservative movement ideology, but follows the Orthodox traditional view concerning homosexuality.

www.adatami.com|Index (http://www.adatami.com/)


Bobby

Thank you for your responses. It answered a few questions I've had for a long time. In response to my question about how her religion looked at the issue, the Rabbi's daughter I spoke of earlier had only told me that Jewish customs were different than the Christian teachings I was familiar with.

As for the second question, I have seen such a variety of beliefs from different churches, that it could make one's head spin.

Your responses have been appreciated and insightful!