Hello everyone.

Rightfully, a question with this title belongs in the religion board, or perhaps the psychology board. However, recent dialogue between Huckabee and Romney have brought this issue to the forefront.

Romney's people have questioned Huckabee as to whether Huckabee believes that Mormonism is a cult. Huckabee has refused to answer the question, saying instead something along the lines of not wanting to speak about other people's religions, only his own. The Romney people are accusing Huckabee of calling Mormonism a cult and are decrying his refusal to answer the question.

So, since this topic is now a front-page political issue, it belongs here.

My questions:

1) What is your definition of a cult?
2) Does Mormonism fit that definition?

Here's my definition of a cult:

A Cult is a pseudo-religious organization that has a living leader who is worshipped either as a deity or the representative of that deity. In order to qualify as a cult, the organization or leader must control all aspects of the daily lives of the followers, to the point of punishing (physically or emotionally) those members who do not submit to that control. Also a cult demands that its members give up all worldly wealth to the organization, with that wealth accruing to the leader of the organization.

Based on this definition of cult, Mormonism does NOT fit the bill. It does not have any specific single leader figure, but rather an organized clergy. It's members, while choosing to submit to a highly regulated set of laws, are free to leave the fold and are not punished by the leadership for transgressions. And while donations to the church are welcome, wealth remains the property of the members. Therefore, Mormonism does not fall into the category of "cult".

Contrast that with the Branch Davidians of Waco, TX. In that organization, David Koresh was an absolute leader, revered as a Messiah figure, a representative of G-d on Earth. He set up a situation wherein he became the sole object of procreation... all married women had to disolve their marriages and women could have sex only with him. He also had sex with several minors with whom Koresh claimed to have fathered children. When Childrens' Protective Services tried to investigate these charges, they found that the women and children wee being prevented from speaking to them. Koresh was in control of their lives. And anyone who wanted to leave the fold had to give up everything they owned... which is the same thing as saying that the organization owned everything they had. The Branch Davidians of Waco, Tx do fall into the category of cult.

What is your opinion on how to define what a cult is, and whether Mormonism is a cult?

Elliot

Mormonism I define as a cult because they came up with many gods and you will be a god... by only one man's vision and no other religious teachings can back it up.

I define a cult as one that deviates way off course with A person coming up with something totally different and the followers are influenced by the leaders to avoid all 'outside' beliefs.
Often the followers are following the leader as a god. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God.

some of the more radical cults use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to them.

dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged and shunned.
They adopt a "groupness" mentality. They are not permitted to think for themselves apart from the group and only accept what they are told.

Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses, children, parents etc are broken or seriously hampered.

I heard Jim Jones and Waco started as a solid Christian church until he got into cult teachings.

edit addition: as I said on Tomder's reply his religion should not be a point of political issue; but rather his values!

What is your opinion on how to define what a cult is, and whether Mormonism is a cult?Hello Elliot:

It's EASY for me.

A cult is any group that believes in fantasy. Mormons would be included in that group. But, so would Christians and Jews and the rest...

Why is what YOU believe NOT cultish, but what THEY believe is??

Maybe this DOES belong on the religion board.

excon

Sine this is in Politics:

Any US public office candidates: When Quizzed About Your Religion (http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/constitution_transcript.html) Please say:
"Thankfully, the Founding Fathers of the United States of America forever resolved this and engraved the answer into the Constitution. It's in Article VI which in part reads: 'no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.' That, my fellow American, is my answer too."

Given that 'definitions' exist only in particular “contexts'” and it seems to me that politically, only a secular context is applicable on this board, and being so Chickadee is right in refusing; otherwise he would politically destroy himself.

SECULAR DEFINITION

CULT - From the Latin "cultis" which denotes all that is
Involved in worship, ritual, emotion, liturgy and attitude.
This definition actually denotes what we call denominations
And sects and would make all religious movements a cult.

http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult

“Romney's people have questioned Huckabee as to whether Huckabee believes that Mormonism is a cult.”

In my opinion the Republican Party should renounce Romney as not fit to represent the party for the question.

“Romney's people have questioned Huckabee as to whether Huckabee believes that Mormonism is a cult.”

IF this is true AND Romney authorized the query, then Romney is an idiot.
If he did not authorize it, he should fire someone publicly.

I hear that Romney is going to do some sort of Religion speech soon. I bet it will drop his support numbers like a hotcake.

hear that Romney is going to do some sort of Religion speech soon. I bet it will drop his support numbers like a hotcake.


Rick ;that is possible but on the other hand it may propel him like the Kennedy statements about his faith gave him a boost with the undecided.

Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association - John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum (http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Archives/Reference+Desk/Speeches/JFK/JFK+Pre-Pres/Address+of+Senator+John+F.+Kennedy+to+the+Greater+ Houston+Ministerial+Association.htm)


Whatever issue may come before me as President--on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling or any other subject--I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise.


I would advise Romney to make it general and specifically to the issue that his faith is in line with the national values and that his church will NOT be making his decisions for him once he is President. He would not be well served in getting into specifics about Mormonism except to emphasis that they follow Jesus.

Rick ;that is possible but on the other hand it may propel him like the Kennedy statements about his faith gave him a boost with the undecided.

Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association - John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum (http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Archives/Reference+Desk/Speeches/JFK/JFK+Pre-Pres/Address+of+Senator+John+F.+Kennedy+to+the+Greater+ Houston+Ministerial+Association.htm)



I would advise Romney to make it general and specifically to the issue that his faith is in line with the national values and that his church will NOT be making his decisions for him once he is President. He would not be well served in getting into specifics about Mormonism except to emphasis that they follow Jesus.
Tom… “Earlier Tuesday in Newton, Iowa, Huckabee wouldn't say whether he thought Mormonism _ rival Romney's religion _ was a cult.”
"I'm just not going to go off into evaluating other people's doctrines and faiths. I think that is absolutely not a role for a president," the former Arkansas governor said.
While he said he respects "anybody who practices his faith," Huckabee said that what other people believe _ he named Republican rivals Romney, John McCain, Rudy Giuliani and Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton _ "is theirs to explain, not mine, and I'm not going to."
In my opinion he took the high road with this answer.


For months, Romney held wide leads in polls in the state, but he also has faced skepticism about his religion. The former Massachusetts governor plans to address his faith in a major speech Thursday in Texas.

I suppose Thursday we will find out; but it is my guess he will flop, or fizzle.

Elliot, I can only imagine the responses on that other board, lol. One minor correction though, the LDS church does have a central leader (http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c6549c57af139010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____) , the President of the church who is "prophet, seer, and revelator—the only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire Church."

Add that to the fact they believe in an alleged Great Apostasy (http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/the-great-apostasy) during which "The doctrines of faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost became distorted or forgotten." Mix in their belief that Joseph Smith restored the gospel and the priesthood (http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/the-restoration-of-the-gospel), use as an extra-biblical book allegedly translated from golden plates written in "reformed Egyptian" detailing Christ's appearance in the Americas at completely unknown geographical locations as the primary source of their faith, and I'd say you have a cult - in light of their claim of being a (actually, THE) Christian church.

However, as I've said before Mitt's Mormon faith is - or should be - irrelevant in the presidential race as far as his qualifications for the job. I'm not concerned with his Mormonism in this race, I care about whether he would be the best man for the job.

Steve

I don't know . Mormon wasn't an issue when his old man was running for President . The only other time I can recall the religion being even a blip on the screen during Presidential politics was when Jimmy Carter (also a Baptist )was running against Mo Udall ;and that was only because the mayor of Detroit made a racist comment against Mormons. (I'm asking you to make a choice between a man from Georgia who fights to let you in his church, and a man from Arizona whose church won't even let you in the back door." )

Seems to me that Huckabee has painted himself into a corner by playing up the faith card a little too much . No doubt it has given him a boost in Iowa .But nationally I wonder.

When Kennedy addressed the Houston ministers he said :


"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute; where no Catholic prelate would tell the President — should he be Catholic — how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote," said Kennedy. "I believe in an America ... where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind." And it worked for him . Contrast that to Huckabee's statements


"Faith doesn't just influence me; it really defines me. I don't have to wake up every day wondering, 'What do I need to believe?' "


"Let us never sacrifice our principles for anybody's politics. Not now, not ever,"... "We believe in some things. We stand by those things. We live or die by those things."


Now he will not confirm or deny if he thinks LDS is a cult .Bad move .He is boxing himself into an appearance of intolerance.

As for Romney... Besides a general statement that he has the same values as mainstream Americans ;he should not get into the specifics of his faith.If he wants to mention Mormons he should point out the great contributions that Mormons have given to America throughout history .

Hello everyone.

Romney's people have questioned Huckabee as to whether Huckabee believes that Mormonism is a cult. Huckabee has refused to answer the question, saying instead something along the lines of not wanting to speak about other people's religions, only his own. The Romney people are accusing Huckabee of calling Mormonism a cult and are decrying his refusal to answer the question.

So, since this topic is now a front-page political issue, it belongs here.

What is your opinion on how to define what a cult is, and whether Mormonism is a cult?

Elliot

ETW-

First off, I think Romney understands that besides Utah and few other States, most people find Mormonism strange. So rather than permit that issue to sneak up on him later, he wants Huckabee to respond early. Mormons believe things that are highly questionable and are not standard for most Christians using their own denominational NT theology. But that alone I personally do not consider to make a cult. I agree with your logic on the definition and do not place Mormans in that category. Outside of individual isolated cases, involving some macadamia nuts, under-aged forced polygamy etc... the Mormon church as a religious organization (as a whole) has been scrutinized and investigated, but nothing illegal. Unless of course the Mormon tabernacle choir is going to be arrested for singing to loud and wearing long robes or their church janitor gets handcuffed for polishing one of their golden angel images. :)



Bobby


PS. That Bris is happening soon!

Hello Elliot:

It's EASY for me.

A cult is any group that believes in fantasy. Mormons would be included in that group. But, so would Christians and Jews and the rest.....

Why is what YOU believe NOT cultish, but what THEY believe is???

Maybe this DOES belong on the religion board.

excon

That definition would make Disney fans, comic fans, Star Trek fans, and liberals members of cults. All of them believe in fantasy.

Sorry, but that definition is weak, in my opinion.

Given that ‘definitions’ exist only in particular “contexts’” and it seems to me that politically, only a secular context is applicable on this board, and being so Chickadee is right in refusing; otherwise he would politically destroy himself.

SECULAR DEFINITION

CULT - From the Latin "cultis" which denotes all that is
Involved in worship, ritual, emotion, liturgy and attitude.
This definition actually denotes what we call denominations
and sects and would make all religious movements a cult.

http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult

I don't necessarily agree with that definition, but it is certainly ecumenical and all inclusive. Good answer DC.

N0help4u agrees: exactly what defines cult --the only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire Church."

Isn't that what Jesus was supposed to have done? Is Christianity a cult? Was it a cult during the lifetime of Jesus? I have to question that definition of "cult".

Close but not quite. They are still missing the "giving up wealth to the organization" factor.

It is my understanding that Mormons are required (http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=e141f73c28d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____) to tithe.


The Bible indicates that God’s people followed the law of tithing anciently; through modern prophets, God restored this law once again to bless His children. To fulfill this commandment, Church members give one-tenth of their income to the Lord through His Church. These funds are used to build up the Church and further the work of the Lord throughout the world.

One of the blessings of membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the privilege of paying tithing. This privilege is a double blessing. By paying tithing, Church members show their gratitude to God for their blessings and their resolve to trust in the Lord rather than in material things. They also help further the work of the Lord in the earth, blessing others of God’s children with the opportunity to learn of Him and to grow in the gospel.

Through the prophet Malachi, the Lord declared:

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it" (Malachi 3:10).

Church members give their tithing donations to local leaders. These local leaders transmit tithing funds directly to the headquarters of the Church, where a council determines specific ways to use the sacred funds. This council comprises the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and the Presiding Bishopric. Acting according to revelation, they make decisions as they are directed by the Lord. (See D&C 120:1.)

Tithing funds are always used for the Lord's purposes—to build and maintain temples and meetinghouses, to sustain missionary work, to educate Church members, and to carry on the work of the Lord throughout the world.

The LDS church is the only church I know of that speaks of tithing as "paying" a tithe as opposed to "giving," forwarding all funds directly to their Salt Lake City headquarters.

Mormons are also are instructed to attend an annual "tithing settlement (http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=5eba2eb2162eb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____) ."


It is also important that we declare our tithing faithfulness to our bishop or branch president. We are asked to make this declaration during tithing settlement—an individual or family interview with the bishop or branch president during December each year. There are several important reasons.

The LDS church is the only church I know that doesn't consider tithing to be between you and God alone, but expects an accounting from you.

The LDS church is estimated to be an $8 billion a year enterprise, owning Beneficial Life Insurance, the Deseret News, hotels, immense amounts of real estate, livestock and who knows what else - since they haven't disclosed their finances since 1959.

Does Anglicanism qualify as a "cult"? They deviated from Catholic tradition, made a god of the King of England, and went to war to prevent any outside religious influence into their belief system. It would seem to qualify for your definition.

By my looser term of cult
We could say that Catholicism can be defined a cult.

Kathryn Jean Lopez at National Review Online has excerpts of Romney's speech he will give tonight The Corner on National Review Online (http://corner.nationalreview.com/)


"There are some who may feel that religion is not a matter to be seriously considered in the context of the weighty threats that face us. If so, they are at odds with the nation's founders, for they, when our nation faced its greatest peril, sought the blessings of the Creator. And further, they discovered the essential connection between the survival of a free land and the protection of religious freedom. In John Adam's words: 'We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people.'

"Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone."

…

"When I place my hand on the Bible and take the oath of office, that oath becomes my highest promise to God. If I am fortunate to become your president, I will serve no one religion, no one group, no one cause, and no one interest. A President must serve only the common cause of the people of the United States."

…

"There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes President he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths."

…

"It is important to recognize that while differences in theology exist between the churches in America, we share a common creed of moral convictions. And where the affairs of our nation are concerned, it's usually a sound rule to focus on the latter – on the great moral principles that urge us all on a common course. Whether it was the cause of abolition, or civil rights, or the right to life itself, no movement of conscience can succeed in America that cannot speak to the convictions of religious people.

"We separate church and state affairs in this country, and for good reason. No religion should dictate to the state nor should the state interfere with the free practice of religion. But in recent years, the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond its original meaning. They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God. Religion is seen as merely a private affair with no place in public life. It is as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America – the religion of secularism. They are wrong.

"The founders proscribed the establishment of a state religion, but they did not countenance the elimination of religion from the public square. We are a nation 'Under God' and in God, we do indeed trust.

"We should acknowledge the Creator as did the founders – in ceremony and word. He should remain on our currency, in our pledge, in the teaching of our history, and during the holiday season, nativity scenes and menorahs should be welcome in our public places. Our greatness would not long endure without judges who respect the foundation of faith upon which our constitution rests. I will take care to separate the affairs of government from any religion, but I will not separate us from 'the God who gave us liberty.'"We should acknowledge the Creator as did the founders – in ceremony and word. He should remain on our currency, in our pledge, in the teaching of our history, and during the holiday season, nativity scenes and menorahs should be welcome in our public places. Our greatness would not long endure without judges who respect the foundation of faith upon which our constitution rests. I will take care to separate the affairs of government from any religion, but I will not separate us from 'the God who gave us liberty.'"These American values, this great moral heritage, is shared and lived in my religion as it is in yours. I was taught in my home to honor God and love my neighbor. I saw my father march with Martin Luther King. I saw my parents provide compassionate care to others, in personal ways to people nearby, and in just as consequential ways in leading national volunteer movements."These American values, this great moral heritage, is shared and lived in my religion as it is in yours. I was taught in my home to honor God and love my neighbor. I saw my father march with Martin Luther King. I saw my parents provide compassionate care to others, in personal ways to people nearby, and in just as consequential ways in leading national volunteer movements."My faith is grounded on these truths. You can witness them in Ann and my marriage and in our family. We are a long way from perfect and we have surely stumbled along the way, but our aspirations, our values, are the self -same as those from the other faiths that stand upon this common foundation. And these convictions will indeed inform my presidency."

...

"My faith is grounded on these truths. You can witness them in Ann and my marriage and in our family. We are a long way from perfect and we have surely stumbled along the way, but our aspirations, our values, are the self -same as those from the other faiths that stand upon this common foundation. And these convictions will indeed inform my presidency."In such a world, we can be deeply thankful that we live in a land where reason and religion are friends and allies in the cause of liberty, joined against the evils and dangers of the day. And you can be certain of this: Any believer in religious freedom, any person who has knelt in prayer to the Almighty, has a friend and ally in me. And so it is for hundreds of millions of our countrymen: we do not insist on a single strain of religion - rather, we welcome our nation's symphony of faith."

It is my understanding that Mormons are required (http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=e141f73c28d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____) to tithe.



The LDS church is the only church I know of that speaks of tithing as "paying" a tithe as opposed to "giving," forwarding all funds directly to their Salt Lake City headquarters.

Mormons are also are instructed to attend an annual "tithing settlement (http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d 82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=5eba2eb2162eb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____) ."



The LDS church is the only church I know that doesn't consider tithing to be between you and God alone, but expects an accounting from you.

The LDS church is estimated to be an $8 billion a year enterprise, owning Beneficial Life Insurance, the Deseret News, hotels, immense amounts of real estate, livestock and who knows what else - since they haven't disclosed their finances since 1959.

Yes, tithing is required. But giving up 1/10th of your income is not the same as giving up your entire wealth. HUGE difference. Both Christianity and Judaism have tithing requirements, but neither of them require that one give up ones entire wealth to the church/synagogue. Neither does Mormonism. Cults do.

Elliot

Kathryn Jean Lopez at National Review Online has excerpts of Romney's speech he will give tonight The Corner on National Review Online (http://corner.nationalreview.com/)
That is certainly bringing the issue to the forefront, and well said too. It will be interesting to see what his opposition has to say about it.

"excon agrees: Don't you think a bris is a little cultish? "

No. Doing mitzvoth is a joy. :) My son entered the covenant of Avinu Avraham on his eighth day. I'd be glad to accommodate this subject on the Judaism board. Unless there is going to be major surprise campaign announcement I don't think Romney or Huchabee converted. Imagine two politicians heehawing over their privates. Wait it minute! Considering ex-Pres Clinton's Oval office adventures and the recent Sen. Craig's out of the closet airport experience, that would be more information than I care to know about. I can only handle so many news revelations in a lifetime. :D


Bobby

Full text of Romney's speech is now available

An NRO Primary Document on National Review Online (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDJjZDlhYTlkOTE1MWQzMTVlNjhmMmU5YzQ3YjkxMDI=)


I think he knocked it out of the park !